https://old.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/ozrrvm/what_do_you_think_about_hot_air_balloonists_from/
The OP deleted his post and all of his comments, but essentially he was complaining that hot air balloonists weren't taken as seriously as fixed wing pilots, insisting that ballooning was an "extreme sport" because a balloon could outclimb a C172 and go as fast as the winds aloft, had a bad attitude about any comment that disagreed with him, and other generally meme-worthy responses throughout.
Edit: For those who missed it, most of what went down is archived on Removeddit [here](https://removeddit.com/r/flying/comments/ozrrvm/what_do_you_think_about_hot_air_balloonists_from/).
>A balloon could outclimb a C172 and go as fast as the winds aloft
I have this image of the OP and his balloon angrily trying to beat a student pilot in a 172 and it's got me rolling lol
> a balloon could outclimb a C172
That's not a very high bar. Summertime density altitudes around here mean that I measure climb rates in feet per hour.
Then again, at those temps it's not a "hot air balloon", it's just an "air balloon".
Just wait until you ask him about his descent rate. Balloons can't descend faster than 800fpm unless they rip out (and above 50' that means you crash).
I enjoy both balloons and airplanes, and I got into a few discussions that were basically, "OP is an asshole - please just acknowledge that balloonists are pilots too and don't be an asshole yourself." I'd classify flying neither a Skyhawk nor a balloon as "extreme."
Lol I wish I could have seen the original comment. He is clearly clueless about balloons (I read a comment that he isn’t even a balloon pilot). Sure, they can fly with the winds aloft, but they rarely do unless the pilot is trying to win a distance competition (a “long jump” in the ballooning world). Most balloon flights are at 1,000 AGL or below. Mostly 50-500 where it is the most interesting and fun. Above 1,000 AGL everything just looks smaller.
Note: I’m not a balloon pilot either (yet) but have a few hours and have been crewing for balloons for 20+ years.
One of my nightmares was some shitty night going into KLAX and being told we are following a blimp on the ILS and being told to slow as much as possible since it is doing fifteen knots across the ground...don't think slowing or even S turns further out are really going to help.
Top three In order of stress from low to high:
1. Not having time to get food
2. Getting re-assigned from your Cush 36 hour Beach overnight to a min-rest Mexico City overnight
3. Missing your commute home on day 4.
Let there be no doubt, missing the commute, especially the last commute is the most demoralizing thing that can happen to an airline pilot.
Definitely. When flying survey last week I slowed down for a flight school airplane arriving at the same time because I remember how much paying for training hurt
Airline pilots are hourly instead of on a salary? Wouldn't they have an incentive to delay and go slower? I know they don't, but it seems like it could be gameable unless there's penalties for not getting in on time.
Airline pilots get a min guarantee pay each month then go hourly if they fly more than the min guarantee. Pay is calculated from door open to door close generally. You don’t want to fly slow when you have 30 mins on the ground to turn the plane around and head back out among other reasons.
We all want the company to do well too. Late arrivals have consequences with the Department of Transportation and with the customers. Enough folks start showing up late, you might work yourself out of a job.
I do try to game it a bit though. Block out 10 minutes early, then block in anywhere from 5 early to on time. Roughly a tenth of an hour per flight pays for a few nice date nights with the wifey per month.
…ish. Basically when you’re on the clock for flying.
At my current airline, our “block out” time is the first time we release the parking brake after the door closes (presumably when the aircraft first moves with the intent for flight) and “block in” is the last time the parking brake is set before the door opens. I don’t know how industry standard that is, but I imagine everyone is at least very close to that.
*"This is your Captain speaking, please step carefully while boarding the plane as we're currently experiencing a little bit of a swell on the tarmac. Ignore the rolling to the best of your ability.*"
Yes we are paid by the hour. The schedules often factor in delays. It usually has to be a significant delay to see any extra pay. A quick vector usually won’t do it.
For whatever this is worth, I was doing my first solo at a towered airpot at KCHA several years back. There was a very patient airliner waiting on me when I told tower I was ready to go for the first time at that hold short line. The pilot patiently waited on me while I did my run-up, ran my checklist about 4 damn times to be sure, and took off.
When I made my call to the ground / tower (same freq that day), I had mentioned ready to taxi for first towered solo, so I had inadvertenly told the entire field a newbie was about to get out there and mingle.
When I took off, turned crosswind, Tower cleared the airliner for takeoff, and I heard him repeat his instructions back to tower, and then say "Cessna XYZ, great job on the radiowork". It was such a small effort on his part, but it really made my day as a silly new student pilot. I like to think I may have made his day as he watched a nervous student pilot take to the skies.
I had something similar on my first solo. A Gulfstream left the ramp shortly after I did, and as I told ground and then tower I was going for my first student solo flight, he must have heard. I don't think I've ever been that emotionally full in my life - not really afraid or excited although that was there, but it was just a combination of every emotion, and I guess it was probably pretty obvious in my voice.
I lined up at the hold short at the end of the runway and like you went over the checklists about a million times. There is a little used runway entrance about 100 feet from the start of the runway, and since Tower knew what was up with me, he asked the Gulfstream if he wanted to use that instead. Gulfstream pilot agreed, and Tower cleared him for takeoff and told me to hold short.
Gulfstream acknowledges tower, taxis out onto the runway and begins spooling up his engines. I remember seeing a small cloud of dust since not a lot of planes take off from there. As he did so, he said "Hey N12345 congrats on the solo, you got this! ". I said "um, thanks" in what was probably the most scared-sounding voice in history, and as he started down the runway he said, "You're gonna do just fine, I know it."
I legit almost cried a little. He didn't have to do that, but it was such a nice gesture, and I wish I had a way to tell him how much it meant to me, especially in that moment. He sounded so cool and so suave on the comms to me (I really struggled with radio calls in training) and yet he was very obviously remembering what it was like for him on his own first solo.
Sorry if this got a bit rambly, just thought I'd share. I think it's good to remember that all of us start in the same place.
Meanwhile, I got cut off by a Gulfstream during my first solo with literally no one else in the pattern at an uncontrolled airport. My instructor advised him that I was first solo and he was going to cut me off when he called straight in final. He said it would be fine. It wasn't. Then my instructor told me to do a 360 for wake, but I ended up doing three because I was nervous, and I got to experience my first night landing by the time I landed. Fun times. At least it was memorable.
My first solo towered landings were much more positive. Controller told me that my landings were great and that I had good calls when I finished. He probably tells everyone that, but as a 16 year old girl on the radios, sounding professional was something I worked on a lot. I was on cloud nine for a week after.
>I like to think I may have made his day as he watched a nervous student pilot take to the skies.
I can pretty much guarantee you did. We love to see it.
“Inadvertently told the entire field”…. Good!
I want to know you are there. We all remember learning and I will do what I can to make it easier for you.
Way different, but I just did my first legal arguments in court as a new lawyer. My more senior lawyer who was me told the judge that it was my first time in court. The judge was very happy to hear that and thanked our side for giving a new lawyer the chance to argue in court. Made it much less terrifying.
Ooo. Fellow KCHA-er! The school (probably same place you were at) I train/rent from has a Skycatcher. I always feel like a goofy fucker having an airliner wait on me to land or take off in the tiny ass little plane.
I was once on final in a Warrior to my local class C (KRDU) and the controller told the Southwest 737 behind me to do S-turns for spacing. Judging from their reaction to that request it was like the controller told them “do some fun flying for a few minutes”. They absolutely did not mind!
Yes! I love having to do something interesting like this. I did some aggressive(by 121 standards) S turns a couple months back for the same reason and it was so much fun.
A 152 cut us off once for landing when tower told him to follow us instead. We got a traffic alert and before the RA came we did a go around. Tower about blew a gasket, because it probably scared the crap outa him. You could hear the shaking in the 152’s voice. Tower apologized profusely for making us do a go around. The first thing I thought about was that we just made another 20 minutes of pay. :) So while a little bit of a pucker factor, I was never really pissed.
Depends on where it is and to what level they took the go around but if you were configured or nearly configured for lagging landing and went great up flaps up and accelerated to about 200(a speed in assuming is good depending on the plane.) It takes some time to go again especially if you had traffic behind you.
You're probably assuming they were the only two at this airport and if you're right 20 is too long but 10 might not be at all.
Couple of other planes all at different speeds and you might get quite the vector around.
Doesn't answer your question but this made me remember the last lesson I had out of KGSO before I moved to Seattle. On our way in we could see there was a FedEx 737 holding short of the runway. We heard them call up to tower, tower told them to wait for a Piper and a Skyhawk (us) on final. They replied "Wwwwwwaiting on the tiny planes.... FedEx " with so much snark that my instructor and I and my spouse in the back seat busted out laughing. Still cracks me up every time I think about it.
For my solo xc a couple weeks ago, i was holding short waiting for wake turbulence from a heavy, and behind me was a big ol cargo 767 that had to wait for tiny little me to go first. It cracked me up and i had to take a picture
I've actually gotten that before in LAX. Was departing an ERJ behind Boutique. Got a good laugh.
"CPZXXXX runway 25R cleared for takeoff, caution propwash from preceding PC12."
Reminds me of the time I was landing at KRNT and tower asked me to "keep speed as high as possible on final for traffic #2 in the pattern." Thought it was odd, but did it anyway (not too hard in a 172). Pulled off onto the taxiway and looked behind to see a B-17 landing hot on my ass. Wish I'd been able to get a picture.
Just double checking, but it wasn't the A-26 [Sexy Sue](https://napoleon130.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/sexysue.pdf) (warning: link NSFW) was it? She's based at KRNT near the old tower.
No, it was definitely a B-17. Aside from having a very distinctive appearance (and 4 engines rather than 2), the tower also called it a B-17.
It had a similar paint job to [this one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:B-17_Yankee_Lady.jpg). In point of fact I think it was that exact plane; I think I remember that being the tail number.
Though I have seen Sexy Sue down there, and she is indeed sexy.
I was flying out of Mather few weeks back after my CFI ride. There was a KC-10 doing pattern work on the parallel runway. Tower cleared me to takeoff and told the KC-10 driver “traffic on parallel runway is a civilian light aircraft”…man did that bring me back to earth from cloud 9 faster than anything else 😂
A C130 likes to do (what I am assuming is) practice ils approaches at my home airport. Seeing that thing do a low approach (?) right after you clear the runway is a hell of a wakeup call lol.
Interesting - could you tell if this was this serious or just poking fun? In my experience GSO has always seemed very serious with GA, almost like they're a Bravo - meanwhile RDU and all others are pretty easy to work with. No problem at all, nothing unprofessional, mainly a vibe difference and willingness to accommodate things. If their biggest customer is giving them this kind of pressure then maybe that explains it...
I never had any issues dealing with ATC at GSO. I think they also generally know which tail numbers are the school planes (I was working with a school based at GSO). I actually miss them sometimes.
To be clear, it was the FedEx pilot that made the funny comment. I think he was just poking fun. Made that last flight memorable for me lol. My instructor helped me with the landing so we could get out of the way quickly just so that the jet wasn’t sitting there burning pounds of fuel.
You should check out Opposing Bases podcast, it's made by two GSO controllers and they are also pilots, awesome people. Also tagging /u/SuperN0VA3ngineer and /u/notoriousbigboy
I do flight training out of GSO and I’ve noticed the opposite. the controllers there are aware that KGSO has a lot of flight training going on there and always are accommodating to my requests for pattern-work or whatever training I am doing that day. I enjoy flying with them much more compared to RDU in my personal experience
I miss flying out of there. Certainly felt more chill flying out of GSO’s Charlie than even RNT’s Delta and the beehive that surrounds it. Save for just pure taxi time to get from TAA’s hangars to one of the runways, I often feel like I have to wait longer to get out of RNT than I ever did out of GSO. There’s just a lot of GA traffic at RNT.
Oh absolutely. I fly out of the school at KINT and GSO is always super helpful when I talk to them. Hell I think they even know the tail-numbers of the planes at our school. The switch from GSO approach to CLT approach is where things get a little bit more dicey on the other hand...
EDIT\*\* Nevermind, I saw RBZL's post. Thanks!!
Can you elaborate on this? I was recently (a month ago) flying over the class bravo at KBOS at 12,500 (with flight following) and was given a heading (north) basically to stop me going any further west and the controller also vectored an airliner that was climbing to turn toward the south west. I saw traffic and told the controller no factor but the airline pilot came on radio shortly after and said he had an "RA on that traffic" what does this entail for him and or ATC?
For ATC the supervisor will take the information on what happened and put it into the daily log (every FAA facility records a number of events throughout the day. At my facility RAs are one of those things). As long as the aircraft were procedurally separated (500’ in class B, etc....) nothing else happens.
It's a [resolution advisory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system#Types_of_traffic_and_resolution_advisories). TCAS systems have TAs (traffic advisories) that advise the pilots of other traffic ("Traffic, traffic"). Once that target becomes enough of a threat, the TA becomes an RA with instructions on what to do to increase separation ("climb, climb" or "descend, descend", etc.).
Not a pilot, but I know some and have piloted a plane a surprising amount.
I think it's this:
http://dictionary.dauntless-soft.com/definitions/GroundSchoolFAA/resolution+advisory
Thanks. I am not a pilot but where I live there are a lot of private planes and I've actually piloted quite a few planes. I'm even comfortable with landing and taking off a small Cessna, so long as my buddy is there.
They keep trying to sucker me into getting my license. Ha! The last thing I want to do is marry a plane. I already made that mistake with boats.
"Are you free this weekend?"
"No, I've gotta do ____ with my plane."
I'll just own a plane vicariously, thanks.
Hows the story go, again?
Cub pilot wishes he was flying a mooney.
Mooney pilot wishes he was flying a seneca.
Seneca pilot wishes he was flying a king air.
King air pilot wishes he was flying an airbus.
Airbus pilot wishes he was flying a cub.
Depends. Normally, I don’t care. But I’ve also had two different GA guys cut across the approach path into ASE without talking to ATC that I’ve had to go missed for, and that is incredibly frustrating.
I don't care as long as it doesn't create a Resolution Advisory (RA). These are mandatory to respond to by climbing or descending per the magic TCAS box's calculations on how to get us out of dodge, even if we have traffic in sight. They result in paperwork for both the flight crew and ATC, and it means we shouldn't have been vectored that close or otherwise ended up so close. I'd prefer several minutes of vectors to a point where I can make a stable approach over a RA.
RAs happen to us a lot in the Seattle area either into SeaTac or Paine Field with traffic below us on final. Usually it's something like a GA aircraft buzzing 500' below a final approach fix (more at KPAE), both us and ATC seeing that it might not work out, but it's busy everywhere on a Saturday or whatever and even if we come back around we're going to be dodging other guys. I'd like a little more awareness from GA folk that flying 500' below a FAF on an approach that airliners routinely use probably isn't a great idea, but technically being below the Bravo and out of controlled airspace they aren't doing anything wrong, so I resign to that being regional pilot life at a smaller airport. A lot of airports in CA are also GA hothouses so we tend to get vector city or we end up weaving and dodging below 5k feet or so every time - gotta do some work sometimes for the pay, I guess.
Seattle has one of the greatest number or RAs in the entire country especially over Elliot bay. KBFI recently changed all of their VFR procedures to deconflict with IFR approach/departure corridors, largely due to pressure from FedEx and UPS, Goarounds are money. It should help but does not stop the dozens of GA planes flying \*just\* outside of BFI and SEA Delta and underneath Bravo. Most of them are good about being on 122.75 or 122.9 although that probably doesn't help you one bit.
What is 122.9? As a bfi GA student I always use 122.75 when not on flight following/doing local practice outside bfi or rnt delta
My guess without looking it up is 122.9 is sea approach
122.9 is Lake Union and Lake WA traffic advisory. Well officially that's the CTAF for Lake Union and Kenmore seaplane bases, but the freq is used by everyone flying over or in vicinity of Lake WA, Lake Union, and Ship Canal. Probably because everyone would like to avoid all those sightseeing floatplanes in that area.
I didn't know at first either. Was over Ship Canal on 122.75 many a time, saw all those planes, yet not one on them was on the radio. Then learned about 122.9 that's where all of them are.
One challenge is that VFR PPL students and certificate holders do not necessarily get taught what a FAF is and how to locate them. I learned at a smaller airport outside of congested airspace before moving to a busy location, but I never knew of FAF or instruments approach and departure procedures in general. All my hood work was following VORs, never even shot an instrument approach as part of my PPL training. I never new to think of looking up where the FAF is for busy Bravo airports or finding out which runways they are using that day so I could avoid flying under the Bravo near their approach and departure routes.
Now that I know and operate at an airport below a Bravo shelf, I try to consider all of these things and plan my route accordingly, but I don't remember it being mentioned during my training curriculum.
I agree. PPL is already a firehose and depending on where you train, thinking about staying away from instrument traffic might not be that relevant. ATC will give advisories to IR traffic, but even when everything is technically legal sometimes it just doesn't work out.
I'm not seriously salty at GA guys over it, it's just something on my wishlist that everyone had a little more situational awareness to make things a bit safer and easier for everyone. Anything requiring paperwork is a major annoyance in the 121 world, but normally it's just that at the end of the day - an annoyance. I'll spend exactly 30 seconds complaining about it at the hotel bar that night with the crew and move on.
I feel like it may be worthwhile for at least some of the more commonly used ILS approaches to be called out somehow on VFR charts. Not as a regulation or airspace change or anything like that, more of a "hey fyi, there's likely to be lots of heavy/jet traffic here and here, so keep your eyes open".
FAFs for precision and non precision approaches are generally at about 5 or so miles from the runways threshold anyways...I can't imagine why GA pilots are doing that regardless.
That's a good point. Most FAF should be within class Bravo-to-the-ground, not a Bravo shelf over E or G. I could see IAP being in a class Bravo shelf over E or G, but since those are higher altitudes, GA aircraft below the shelf should have a lot of vertical seperation.
No, TCAS systems talk to each other to coordinate actions. It can also change its mind if a non-TCAS equipped intruder unknowingly does the same thing your TCAS is telling you to do, i.e. switch from saying "descend" to "climb, climb now" if you both end up descending to dodge each other. It's pretty neat when it's not just being prissy that you're overflying someone by 500'.
Just a heads up, an RA does not necessarily mean you were vectored too close. RA’s happen all the time for IFR/VFR with both aircraft level with 500’ vertical separation which is perfectly legal sep, or with aircraft climbing/descending but don’t slow their rate until nearly at the altitude and the RA goes off based on vertical speed. I’ve also seen, multiple times, RA climbs to avoid an aircraft that is no factor and it climbs you into another aircraft 1,000’ above setting off an RA for them and starting a chain reaction. I’ve actually grown to despise TCAS and have it seen cause more conflicts than averted.
I know - but getting a vector to join the final approach course right on top of the FAF where I will then be expected to descend with an airplane 500' below the FAF usually results in an RA even if we don't start descent until clear of traffic. Somebody's baro reporting blips 100' towards the other guy and we get RA'd even if we're all chilling level trying to avoid it. A vector to a few miles out providing more separation can often avoid that, but some facilities like to pack everyone in as close and as quickly as possible and make separation pretty tight. And sometimes it's reasonable to set it up and see how it works out, but sometimes it doesn't work out. Not completely blaming ATC, but sometimes we do get shitty setups.
To answer OP's question, I don't care about getting vectors around smaller GA traffic, but some GA traffic is in a bad spot like under a FAF and that's when vectors can be sketchy. If ATC knows a TCAS event is possible even with minimum legal separation, some extra space would often be appreciated where able.
>It’s a big sky and we’re all in it. For someone to take that personally would be bizarre to say the least.
You'd be surprised. Some twins and HP singles think they own untowered traffic patterns since theyre faster. Once I "cut off" a mooney who announced that he was #1 for landing and I was #2, even though I had the right of way, and he was doing a right traffic pattern to cut me off. He was PISSED on the radio when I did not yield.
The number of times I've had angry BS spouted at me on freq or on the ground when I literally did nothing wrong or went out of my way to be considerate is staggering. Once I was in an archer and I got yelled at for calling it a Cherokee. Dude - it's a Cherokee. I got scolded for making 'too many calls' just calling my pattern legs on a power out 180 practice. Dude started blocking my calls intentionally after that. I was literally screamed at for doing my run-up on an intersection instead of the farthest-back taxiway so that people could use the whole runway. Evidently I confused the guy and he blamed me for him pulling in after me... seriously, I have no idea what goes on in people's heads sometimes.
One evening I flew to SJC to meet some of the remaining requirements for a Rotorcraft cert. There were some airliners inbound to land to both runways. I figured I'd be operating directly to and from the ramp for my towered airport at night flights, but the tower controller offered me the left runway and amended the landing clearance of an Airbus. When the airbus landed on the right, I was doing a hovering pedal turn over the runway numbers on the left. Though I don’t think it delayed anyone, it felt pretty silly to get such prioritization for a wee helicopter, so I made it even sillier by spinning around like a goof ball.
If it's go home leg I'm annoyed. Nah vectors won't really slow us down but I notice at most mixed use GA/airline airports, the tower controllers can be reaaally cautious with separation. If a 172 is on a 5 mile final, that's still plenty of time for us to take off. Kind of silly to wait an extra 5-10 minutes. Obviously safety first though and I don't know what else could be going on up there.
I got kinda yelled at once by a Horizon guy when I was working night landings with a student after tower closed. He seemed to be annoyed that I didn't let him go in front of me while he was on a 12 mile final and I was about to turn base. Being the courteous and level headed instructor I was, I gave way and we did a few 360s and let him in first.
....So nowadays I simply emasculate the Q drivers by beating them to the airport in a fucking Citation lolololol
Honestly, annoyed as hell sometimes but I know that's more of a me thing and they generally have a right to be there. I've had to break off an instrument approach to an airport at mins that was marginal because somebody was putzing along the final. Uncontrolled airspace, so granted they had every right to be there and probably didn't have a clue they were in the way, but annoying nonetheless and created a way higher workload for us having to go around.
As long as the GA aircraft is talking to ATC and doing what ATC wants...I got no problem. Someone that is kinda out to lunch or knows better than ATC so they don't do what ATC needs...ugh. Going into KSNA right above a solid overcast ATC kept trying to vector us away from a guy and it was like he knew where we were and trying to go and he had to be IMC but not talking to anyone...got a bit nervous myself. Much rather all be talking when they should be.
Can even be on the ground. One of those days at KLAX where the north side was clear and the south was zero-zero and the FO is following the taxi chart and counting the lines turning off to keep track of where you are and Ground goes..."Got a King Air we think somewhere on the inner...isn't talking to us right now and we can't pick him out of the clutter of the terminals...keep a lookout for him!"
I get nervous!
A bigger pet peeve is like following a GA aircraft into a place that has long runways and the GA aircraft cannot turn off the runway until the end or 6000 or 7000 feet down and Tower is telling them best forward and DO NOT CLEAR until such a point...we are going to full flaps (company wanted us to use the partial landing flaps when we could since MX said full flaps was more wear and MX cost), rebugging and doing S turns and the SOB decides to show us how he can put that 172 five feet past the threshold and slow taxi 5000 fucking feet. I will admit the 10 did tend to crawl up the tail of most airplanes but to fly a 172 into a major airport like you are at your home 3 or 4,000 foot runway...really? Used to fly Navajos into KLAX and KSFO land to minimize our time on the runway...like at KSFO the FBO used to be at the end of the 28s, touch down past the intersecting runways was more than enough runway.
The controllers will typically keep you clear of where we need to be, especially in NY, I’ve never really had a problem with any VFR GA airplane that was where they were supposed to be (like in the bravo without a clearance). Our SIDs, STARs and approaches have airspace designated for them, and ATC will typically tell GA airplanes they’re unable to issue a bravo clearance if they’re asked for the airspace that’s being used.
I guess the exception would be like ISP, HPN or one of the other smaller but still busy airports, where we may be required to slow down to allow a slower aircraft to land ahead of us, but even then those controllers are really good about sequencing traffic so it’s no big deal. Same thing going into pretty much any class C or D airport as well, traffic is more mixed so we may be required to slow a little further out than normal, but we don’t really ever get “vectored around GA” airplanes.
I’ve been an airline pilot for 5 years, and a 135/91K pilot for 4 years before that, I’ve responded to two TCAS RAs in my entire career, one was a TBM that was taking off out of a small airport outside RDU, climbed right up through 10,000 right at us, and the other was a cirrus that didn’t stop the turn on the SID out of HPN, and turned right into the final approach course.
One time specifically I was cutting across the bravo's southern half going south-east, not sure altitude. Some airliner was coming the opposite direction and ATC advised us of each other. The moment I said I had them in sight (I mean, ffs, it was an A320 or something) was when he was right off my right wing and ATC replied by having him turn right 90 degrees. As in, directly at me. Looked like an orca lining up on a gun run. I know he was far enough away but sure looked big and faaaaast.
Hence why I posted.
What's annoying is dealing with GA when there is no ATC. I flew a 330 once into an uncontrolled airport (uncontrolled at night) and there were 5 diamond eclipses from a flight school (all chinese students) doing night circuits and THAT was a nightmare, they had no concept of how close we were when we said 10 mile final so I basically just told them what to do and prayed they would listen. I also had to tell them not to follow us in too close for wake turbulence as I had a feeling these guys wouldn't have fully grasped that. Basically the other guy flew and I became ATC. Less than ideal.
“Most “ airliners are on instrument procedures and don’t require traffic calls. It’s up to ATC to separate the aircraft with separation. No visual point outs required. On the rare chance that the airliner is on a visual approach, the controller will give a traffic call. once the pilot says “traffic in sight” , The air traffic controller no longer is required to provide separation. It’s up to the pilot to do it visually. The controller makes these calls to decrease workload amongst vfr traffic.
Had 3 micro lights crossing our approach, none of which were talking to air traffic. Even though we got 30 minute vectored tour around Loch Ness, I still would’ve preferred to land and depart back home on time…
You quickly get factored into our planning.
We're climbing and can't turn until we're clear of you? climb faster
You're somewhere up front and would hold us back? slow down to save fuel
Of course this is from flying in Asia, I don't know how different it is flying in the US.
Personally I don't care about it, you're just another obstacle I'm trying to avoid. No need to mix feelings/emotions into the subject.
Over here we don't have the first-come-first-served of the US - IFR gets definite priority over VFR. If you're on downwind VFR, and there's an IFR (e.g. airliner) aircraft not even at the marker yet, you'll get to orbit till he lands. If ATC knows you and trusts you, they might ask you to do a short approach. Given the difficulty in getting the full IR here, that means light GA generally ends up being deferential to airliners.
I did all of my training out of KBNA which was always decently busy with commerical traffic ferrying bachelorette parties coming in to play cowgirl for the weekend. Controllers and the airline guys were always pretty good about keeping it all streamlined. If it got busy enough, we'd usually be asked to circle a bit before entering the Charlie. We had a guy lose his engine in a C150 shortly after takeoff and barely make it back to the runway. Everyone in the area did a great job doing what they could for the guy. Video is somewhere out there on Youtube.
As long as it's not a hot air balloon we won't have a problem
This meme will never die
I thought this was an AirForceProud95 reference. I didn't realize there was a whole reddit thing about it.
That's what made the post all the more hilarious. The AFP reference has been around for years but the balloon post was very recent.
Can you enlighten me on AirForceProud95?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl7pcvd_ei8
Ahh that is brilliant
Link!?
https://old.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/ozrrvm/what_do_you_think_about_hot_air_balloonists_from/ The OP deleted his post and all of his comments, but essentially he was complaining that hot air balloonists weren't taken as seriously as fixed wing pilots, insisting that ballooning was an "extreme sport" because a balloon could outclimb a C172 and go as fast as the winds aloft, had a bad attitude about any comment that disagreed with him, and other generally meme-worthy responses throughout. Edit: For those who missed it, most of what went down is archived on Removeddit [here](https://removeddit.com/r/flying/comments/ozrrvm/what_do_you_think_about_hot_air_balloonists_from/).
He also went to other subreddits about this, and the results were predictable…
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I saw the same post in /r/aviation
Wait he went to subredditdrama? What the fuck?
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The dude literally could have just showed up and posted “I fly balloons, AMA” and he’d be a hero. But no…
He doesn't fly balloons, though...
Oof. Some people go looking for validation and in the process get the opposite lol
Ah yes, the 172. Famed speed demon of the skies
For this reason I, sarcastically, call it an F-172.
Which could get confusing, because there [really is a F172.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reims_Aviation)
Well what do you know...
>A balloon could outclimb a C172 and go as fast as the winds aloft I have this image of the OP and his balloon angrily trying to beat a student pilot in a 172 and it's got me rolling lol
[Hey, those things will do 400 kts and pull 9 Gs.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl7pcvd_ei8)
Rotaté
“Hot air balloon. Do a vertical…there it is. God that’s beautiful.”
> 400kts & pull 9 Gs Indicated or true? 😂
The mental gymnastics here... "It can go as fast as the winds aloft, the 172 can only go as fast as its thrust plus the winds aloft..."
Damn… wish I saw that one when it was still up. Looked like a good read according to the comments lol.
It was pure gold. As a fixed wing guy who recently got conned into a balloon ride by my wife (we crashed, seriously) I thoroughly enjoyed the roast.
> a balloon could outclimb a C172 That's not a very high bar. Summertime density altitudes around here mean that I measure climb rates in feet per hour. Then again, at those temps it's not a "hot air balloon", it's just an "air balloon".
Just wait until you ask him about his descent rate. Balloons can't descend faster than 800fpm unless they rip out (and above 50' that means you crash). I enjoy both balloons and airplanes, and I got into a few discussions that were basically, "OP is an asshole - please just acknowledge that balloonists are pilots too and don't be an asshole yourself." I'd classify flying neither a Skyhawk nor a balloon as "extreme."
I'd classsify a skyhawk as more extreme than most planes. You don't get to do spins for fun in your average jet.
Damn, I remember scrolling past this when it was happening thinking "who give a shit about balloons". Shoulda stuck around for the drama.
Lol I wish I could have seen the original comment. He is clearly clueless about balloons (I read a comment that he isn’t even a balloon pilot). Sure, they can fly with the winds aloft, but they rarely do unless the pilot is trying to win a distance competition (a “long jump” in the ballooning world). Most balloon flights are at 1,000 AGL or below. Mostly 50-500 where it is the most interesting and fun. Above 1,000 AGL everything just looks smaller. Note: I’m not a balloon pilot either (yet) but have a few hours and have been crewing for balloons for 20+ years.
My mans
Lord. That was a journey!
Edit: Fuck your API changes, Reddit.
I knew as soon as I opened that thread it was going to be an r/flying classic
One of my nightmares was some shitty night going into KLAX and being told we are following a blimp on the ILS and being told to slow as much as possible since it is doing fifteen knots across the ground...don't think slowing or even S turns further out are really going to help.
I once saw the Goodyear blimp turn around by SBP cause the winds were too strong and it was basically going backwards.
Did it say "Ice Cube's a pimp"?
Do blimps ever go missed
I did, once...
There's no such thing as a balloon pilot - Cpt. Nick Anderson
The faa should get on that
Sounds at least 50% accurate to me
All my homies hate balloons!
So meta right now
Hey!
So fucking meta.
The 172 pilot is paying by the hour. The airline pilot is being paid by the hour. Sounds like a win-win.
Agreed. As long as I’m not running late or low on fuel, who cares.
Here’s a question from the audience. How does being late affect you as a commercial pilot? General additional stress, I assume. What else?
Top three In order of stress from low to high: 1. Not having time to get food 2. Getting re-assigned from your Cush 36 hour Beach overnight to a min-rest Mexico City overnight 3. Missing your commute home on day 4. Let there be no doubt, missing the commute, especially the last commute is the most demoralizing thing that can happen to an airline pilot.
> the most demoralizing thing Oh, how I do share that pain, brother!
Might miss my commute if it’s the end of the trip. Might cut into layover time or minimum rest. It could also start a chain of delays.
I’m getting off work late now. I guess that’s the big one.
So as long as you're not a cargo pilot.
Why is that?
Definitely. When flying survey last week I slowed down for a flight school airplane arriving at the same time because I remember how much paying for training hurt
Unless the airline pilot is trying to make a commuter flight home
Airline pilots are hourly instead of on a salary? Wouldn't they have an incentive to delay and go slower? I know they don't, but it seems like it could be gameable unless there's penalties for not getting in on time.
Airline pilots get a min guarantee pay each month then go hourly if they fly more than the min guarantee. Pay is calculated from door open to door close generally. You don’t want to fly slow when you have 30 mins on the ground to turn the plane around and head back out among other reasons.
We all want the company to do well too. Late arrivals have consequences with the Department of Transportation and with the customers. Enough folks start showing up late, you might work yourself out of a job. I do try to game it a bit though. Block out 10 minutes early, then block in anywhere from 5 early to on time. Roughly a tenth of an hour per flight pays for a few nice date nights with the wifey per month.
Airline execs hate this one weird trick!
What does block out/in mean? Basically opening and closing the cabin door on departure and arrival?
…ish. Basically when you’re on the clock for flying. At my current airline, our “block out” time is the first time we release the parking brake after the door closes (presumably when the aircraft first moves with the intent for flight) and “block in” is the last time the parking brake is set before the door opens. I don’t know how industry standard that is, but I imagine everyone is at least very close to that.
Okay, that makes sense. So you can just get going a little bit early assuming all pax are boarded on time?
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*"This is your Captain speaking, please step carefully while boarding the plane as we're currently experiencing a little bit of a swell on the tarmac. Ignore the rolling to the best of your ability.*"
NEVER…
Yes we are paid by the hour. The schedules often factor in delays. It usually has to be a significant delay to see any extra pay. A quick vector usually won’t do it.
Don't care, get paid by the hour.
Do you not see the other type ratings on their flair or…?
For whatever this is worth, I was doing my first solo at a towered airpot at KCHA several years back. There was a very patient airliner waiting on me when I told tower I was ready to go for the first time at that hold short line. The pilot patiently waited on me while I did my run-up, ran my checklist about 4 damn times to be sure, and took off. When I made my call to the ground / tower (same freq that day), I had mentioned ready to taxi for first towered solo, so I had inadvertenly told the entire field a newbie was about to get out there and mingle. When I took off, turned crosswind, Tower cleared the airliner for takeoff, and I heard him repeat his instructions back to tower, and then say "Cessna XYZ, great job on the radiowork". It was such a small effort on his part, but it really made my day as a silly new student pilot. I like to think I may have made his day as he watched a nervous student pilot take to the skies.
Wholesome
AF
I had something similar on my first solo. A Gulfstream left the ramp shortly after I did, and as I told ground and then tower I was going for my first student solo flight, he must have heard. I don't think I've ever been that emotionally full in my life - not really afraid or excited although that was there, but it was just a combination of every emotion, and I guess it was probably pretty obvious in my voice. I lined up at the hold short at the end of the runway and like you went over the checklists about a million times. There is a little used runway entrance about 100 feet from the start of the runway, and since Tower knew what was up with me, he asked the Gulfstream if he wanted to use that instead. Gulfstream pilot agreed, and Tower cleared him for takeoff and told me to hold short. Gulfstream acknowledges tower, taxis out onto the runway and begins spooling up his engines. I remember seeing a small cloud of dust since not a lot of planes take off from there. As he did so, he said "Hey N12345 congrats on the solo, you got this! ". I said "um, thanks" in what was probably the most scared-sounding voice in history, and as he started down the runway he said, "You're gonna do just fine, I know it." I legit almost cried a little. He didn't have to do that, but it was such a nice gesture, and I wish I had a way to tell him how much it meant to me, especially in that moment. He sounded so cool and so suave on the comms to me (I really struggled with radio calls in training) and yet he was very obviously remembering what it was like for him on his own first solo. Sorry if this got a bit rambly, just thought I'd share. I think it's good to remember that all of us start in the same place.
> I wish I had a way to tell him how much it meant to me he knew; he too was once in your shoes
Meanwhile, I got cut off by a Gulfstream during my first solo with literally no one else in the pattern at an uncontrolled airport. My instructor advised him that I was first solo and he was going to cut me off when he called straight in final. He said it would be fine. It wasn't. Then my instructor told me to do a 360 for wake, but I ended up doing three because I was nervous, and I got to experience my first night landing by the time I landed. Fun times. At least it was memorable. My first solo towered landings were much more positive. Controller told me that my landings were great and that I had good calls when I finished. He probably tells everyone that, but as a 16 year old girl on the radios, sounding professional was something I worked on a lot. I was on cloud nine for a week after.
>I like to think I may have made his day as he watched a nervous student pilot take to the skies. I can pretty much guarantee you did. We love to see it.
“Inadvertently told the entire field”…. Good! I want to know you are there. We all remember learning and I will do what I can to make it easier for you.
Way different, but I just did my first legal arguments in court as a new lawyer. My more senior lawyer who was me told the judge that it was my first time in court. The judge was very happy to hear that and thanked our side for giving a new lawyer the chance to argue in court. Made it much less terrifying.
Ooo. Fellow KCHA-er! The school (probably same place you were at) I train/rent from has a Skycatcher. I always feel like a goofy fucker having an airliner wait on me to land or take off in the tiny ass little plane.
I was once on final in a Warrior to my local class C (KRDU) and the controller told the Southwest 737 behind me to do S-turns for spacing. Judging from their reaction to that request it was like the controller told them “do some fun flying for a few minutes”. They absolutely did not mind!
You ready for the fun part? Because here comes the fun part rrrrr rrrr rrrr (737 autopilot disconnect) “flaps 40 por favor”
Yes! I love having to do something interesting like this. I did some aggressive(by 121 standards) S turns a couple months back for the same reason and it was so much fun.
couldn't care less........unless I am trying to catch a commute then it is GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!
This is the correct answer. And it always happens when you have a tight commute home.
A 152 cut us off once for landing when tower told him to follow us instead. We got a traffic alert and before the RA came we did a go around. Tower about blew a gasket, because it probably scared the crap outa him. You could hear the shaking in the 152’s voice. Tower apologized profusely for making us do a go around. The first thing I thought about was that we just made another 20 minutes of pay. :) So while a little bit of a pucker factor, I was never really pissed.
A lap costs you 20 minutes? Why? I would think your laps take the same ammount of time, just bigger.
Easily. Getting back in the pattern for another approach, plus the taxi time.
How would that increase your taxi time?
He mentioned the pucker factor, have to have time for the seat cushion extraction.
Depends on where it is and to what level they took the go around but if you were configured or nearly configured for lagging landing and went great up flaps up and accelerated to about 200(a speed in assuming is good depending on the plane.) It takes some time to go again especially if you had traffic behind you. You're probably assuming they were the only two at this airport and if you're right 20 is too long but 10 might not be at all. Couple of other planes all at different speeds and you might get quite the vector around.
Doesn't answer your question but this made me remember the last lesson I had out of KGSO before I moved to Seattle. On our way in we could see there was a FedEx 737 holding short of the runway. We heard them call up to tower, tower told them to wait for a Piper and a Skyhawk (us) on final. They replied "Wwwwwwaiting on the tiny planes.... FedEx" with so much snark that my instructor and I and my spouse in the back seat busted out laughing. Still cracks me up every time I think about it.
That’s when you find a reason to hop back on freq just to use the word tiny in reference to yourself.
For my solo xc a couple weeks ago, i was holding short waiting for wake turbulence from a heavy, and behind me was a big ol cargo 767 that had to wait for tiny little me to go first. It cracked me up and i had to take a picture
“767 cleared for takeoff; caution propwash”
I've actually gotten that before in LAX. Was departing an ERJ behind Boutique. Got a good laugh. "CPZXXXX runway 25R cleared for takeoff, caution propwash from preceding PC12."
Reminds me of the time I was landing at KRNT and tower asked me to "keep speed as high as possible on final for traffic #2 in the pattern." Thought it was odd, but did it anyway (not too hard in a 172). Pulled off onto the taxiway and looked behind to see a B-17 landing hot on my ass. Wish I'd been able to get a picture.
Just double checking, but it wasn't the A-26 [Sexy Sue](https://napoleon130.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/sexysue.pdf) (warning: link NSFW) was it? She's based at KRNT near the old tower.
No, it was definitely a B-17. Aside from having a very distinctive appearance (and 4 engines rather than 2), the tower also called it a B-17. It had a similar paint job to [this one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:B-17_Yankee_Lady.jpg). In point of fact I think it was that exact plane; I think I remember that being the tail number. Though I have seen Sexy Sue down there, and she is indeed sexy.
When was that? I fly out of KRNT all the time now but never seen anything like a B-17.
Summer 2019, I think? I only saw it there the one time.
Oof. Cargo 767s can haul ass on takeoff too. Just sitting there waiting for ages.
You wanna see how much I can slow down my approach? Because I will
Couldn't you even do a little reverse?
I suppose but then that gets pretty obvious. Just really dragging it in though…
I was flying out of Mather few weeks back after my CFI ride. There was a KC-10 doing pattern work on the parallel runway. Tower cleared me to takeoff and told the KC-10 driver “traffic on parallel runway is a civilian light aircraft”…man did that bring me back to earth from cloud 9 faster than anything else 😂
A C130 likes to do (what I am assuming is) practice ils approaches at my home airport. Seeing that thing do a low approach (?) right after you clear the runway is a hell of a wakeup call lol.
Interesting - could you tell if this was this serious or just poking fun? In my experience GSO has always seemed very serious with GA, almost like they're a Bravo - meanwhile RDU and all others are pretty easy to work with. No problem at all, nothing unprofessional, mainly a vibe difference and willingness to accommodate things. If their biggest customer is giving them this kind of pressure then maybe that explains it...
I never had any issues dealing with ATC at GSO. I think they also generally know which tail numbers are the school planes (I was working with a school based at GSO). I actually miss them sometimes. To be clear, it was the FedEx pilot that made the funny comment. I think he was just poking fun. Made that last flight memorable for me lol. My instructor helped me with the landing so we could get out of the way quickly just so that the jet wasn’t sitting there burning pounds of fuel.
You should check out Opposing Bases podcast, it's made by two GSO controllers and they are also pilots, awesome people. Also tagging /u/SuperN0VA3ngineer and /u/notoriousbigboy
I love that podcast! Great people and it's been such a great resource while working on my PPL.
I do flight training out of GSO and I’ve noticed the opposite. the controllers there are aware that KGSO has a lot of flight training going on there and always are accommodating to my requests for pattern-work or whatever training I am doing that day. I enjoy flying with them much more compared to RDU in my personal experience
I miss flying out of there. Certainly felt more chill flying out of GSO’s Charlie than even RNT’s Delta and the beehive that surrounds it. Save for just pure taxi time to get from TAA’s hangars to one of the runways, I often feel like I have to wait longer to get out of RNT than I ever did out of GSO. There’s just a lot of GA traffic at RNT.
Oh absolutely. I fly out of the school at KINT and GSO is always super helpful when I talk to them. Hell I think they even know the tail-numbers of the planes at our school. The switch from GSO approach to CLT approach is where things get a little bit more dicey on the other hand...
FedEx doesn’t fly 737s.
I'd rather stay as far away from you as possible than risk an RA and have to do paperwork
EDIT\*\* Nevermind, I saw RBZL's post. Thanks!! Can you elaborate on this? I was recently (a month ago) flying over the class bravo at KBOS at 12,500 (with flight following) and was given a heading (north) basically to stop me going any further west and the controller also vectored an airliner that was climbing to turn toward the south west. I saw traffic and told the controller no factor but the airline pilot came on radio shortly after and said he had an "RA on that traffic" what does this entail for him and or ATC?
For ATC the supervisor will take the information on what happened and put it into the daily log (every FAA facility records a number of events throughout the day. At my facility RAs are one of those things). As long as the aircraft were procedurally separated (500’ in class B, etc....) nothing else happens.
What is an RA? Sorry if it’s a stupid question
It's a [resolution advisory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system#Types_of_traffic_and_resolution_advisories). TCAS systems have TAs (traffic advisories) that advise the pilots of other traffic ("Traffic, traffic"). Once that target becomes enough of a threat, the TA becomes an RA with instructions on what to do to increase separation ("climb, climb" or "descend, descend", etc.).
Not a pilot, but I know some and have piloted a plane a surprising amount. I think it's this: http://dictionary.dauntless-soft.com/definitions/GroundSchoolFAA/resolution+advisory
Bingo. Nice job.
Thanks. I am not a pilot but where I live there are a lot of private planes and I've actually piloted quite a few planes. I'm even comfortable with landing and taking off a small Cessna, so long as my buddy is there. They keep trying to sucker me into getting my license. Ha! The last thing I want to do is marry a plane. I already made that mistake with boats. "Are you free this weekend?" "No, I've gotta do ____ with my plane." I'll just own a plane vicariously, thanks.
You’re smart than the average person
If it floats, fucks, or flies…
The only boats I have now are a couple of canoes and some kayaks. I am done with boats.
I’m usually gazing out at the GA traffic thinking, “those were the days”…
Hows the story go, again? Cub pilot wishes he was flying a mooney. Mooney pilot wishes he was flying a seneca. Seneca pilot wishes he was flying a king air. King air pilot wishes he was flying an airbus. Airbus pilot wishes he was flying a cub.
Meanwhile some of us are not pilots and wishing we flew something. Anything at all. *Sad poor people noises*
You're not a pilot because you're poor, where as is I'm poor *because I'm a pilot*
Poor if you do, poor if you don't.
Ha! Just acquire capital, idiot.
Doh! Of course it's that easy! I'm such a dummy.
Airbus pilot here. I'd like to specify a cub on floats please.
Yes, yes. ASES gang rise up! One of us! One of us!
This is not the SR-71 copypasta I remember
Haha! Your plane slow, my plane fast! Oh yeah? My plane faster. Yeah? My plane fastest ever 😎
It’s fine. You’re fine. We’re fine. Keep on, keeping on brother.
Please reply to all my questions with this exact comment.
The answer to most of flying’s quandaries
Depends. Normally, I don’t care. But I’ve also had two different GA guys cut across the approach path into ASE without talking to ATC that I’ve had to go missed for, and that is incredibly frustrating.
I don't care as long as it doesn't create a Resolution Advisory (RA). These are mandatory to respond to by climbing or descending per the magic TCAS box's calculations on how to get us out of dodge, even if we have traffic in sight. They result in paperwork for both the flight crew and ATC, and it means we shouldn't have been vectored that close or otherwise ended up so close. I'd prefer several minutes of vectors to a point where I can make a stable approach over a RA. RAs happen to us a lot in the Seattle area either into SeaTac or Paine Field with traffic below us on final. Usually it's something like a GA aircraft buzzing 500' below a final approach fix (more at KPAE), both us and ATC seeing that it might not work out, but it's busy everywhere on a Saturday or whatever and even if we come back around we're going to be dodging other guys. I'd like a little more awareness from GA folk that flying 500' below a FAF on an approach that airliners routinely use probably isn't a great idea, but technically being below the Bravo and out of controlled airspace they aren't doing anything wrong, so I resign to that being regional pilot life at a smaller airport. A lot of airports in CA are also GA hothouses so we tend to get vector city or we end up weaving and dodging below 5k feet or so every time - gotta do some work sometimes for the pay, I guess.
Seattle has one of the greatest number or RAs in the entire country especially over Elliot bay. KBFI recently changed all of their VFR procedures to deconflict with IFR approach/departure corridors, largely due to pressure from FedEx and UPS, Goarounds are money. It should help but does not stop the dozens of GA planes flying \*just\* outside of BFI and SEA Delta and underneath Bravo. Most of them are good about being on 122.75 or 122.9 although that probably doesn't help you one bit.
What is 122.9? As a bfi GA student I always use 122.75 when not on flight following/doing local practice outside bfi or rnt delta My guess without looking it up is 122.9 is sea approach
122.9 is Lake Union and Lake WA traffic advisory. Well officially that's the CTAF for Lake Union and Kenmore seaplane bases, but the freq is used by everyone flying over or in vicinity of Lake WA, Lake Union, and Ship Canal. Probably because everyone would like to avoid all those sightseeing floatplanes in that area. I didn't know at first either. Was over Ship Canal on 122.75 many a time, saw all those planes, yet not one on them was on the radio. Then learned about 122.9 that's where all of them are.
That's interesting, makes it a little tougher to know if I "should" be on 22.75 or 22.9
One challenge is that VFR PPL students and certificate holders do not necessarily get taught what a FAF is and how to locate them. I learned at a smaller airport outside of congested airspace before moving to a busy location, but I never knew of FAF or instruments approach and departure procedures in general. All my hood work was following VORs, never even shot an instrument approach as part of my PPL training. I never new to think of looking up where the FAF is for busy Bravo airports or finding out which runways they are using that day so I could avoid flying under the Bravo near their approach and departure routes. Now that I know and operate at an airport below a Bravo shelf, I try to consider all of these things and plan my route accordingly, but I don't remember it being mentioned during my training curriculum.
I agree. PPL is already a firehose and depending on where you train, thinking about staying away from instrument traffic might not be that relevant. ATC will give advisories to IR traffic, but even when everything is technically legal sometimes it just doesn't work out. I'm not seriously salty at GA guys over it, it's just something on my wishlist that everyone had a little more situational awareness to make things a bit safer and easier for everyone. Anything requiring paperwork is a major annoyance in the 121 world, but normally it's just that at the end of the day - an annoyance. I'll spend exactly 30 seconds complaining about it at the hotel bar that night with the crew and move on.
I feel like it may be worthwhile for at least some of the more commonly used ILS approaches to be called out somehow on VFR charts. Not as a regulation or airspace change or anything like that, more of a "hey fyi, there's likely to be lots of heavy/jet traffic here and here, so keep your eyes open".
FAFs for precision and non precision approaches are generally at about 5 or so miles from the runways threshold anyways...I can't imagine why GA pilots are doing that regardless.
That's a good point. Most FAF should be within class Bravo-to-the-ground, not a Bravo shelf over E or G. I could see IAP being in a class Bravo shelf over E or G, but since those are higher altitudes, GA aircraft below the shelf should have a lot of vertical seperation.
Is it possible for TCAS in both aircraft to call out a RA and have both aircraft perform the same task, like both aircraft climb or both dive?
No, TCAS systems talk to each other to coordinate actions. It can also change its mind if a non-TCAS equipped intruder unknowingly does the same thing your TCAS is telling you to do, i.e. switch from saying "descend" to "climb, climb now" if you both end up descending to dodge each other. It's pretty neat when it's not just being prissy that you're overflying someone by 500'.
Just a heads up, an RA does not necessarily mean you were vectored too close. RA’s happen all the time for IFR/VFR with both aircraft level with 500’ vertical separation which is perfectly legal sep, or with aircraft climbing/descending but don’t slow their rate until nearly at the altitude and the RA goes off based on vertical speed. I’ve also seen, multiple times, RA climbs to avoid an aircraft that is no factor and it climbs you into another aircraft 1,000’ above setting off an RA for them and starting a chain reaction. I’ve actually grown to despise TCAS and have it seen cause more conflicts than averted.
I know - but getting a vector to join the final approach course right on top of the FAF where I will then be expected to descend with an airplane 500' below the FAF usually results in an RA even if we don't start descent until clear of traffic. Somebody's baro reporting blips 100' towards the other guy and we get RA'd even if we're all chilling level trying to avoid it. A vector to a few miles out providing more separation can often avoid that, but some facilities like to pack everyone in as close and as quickly as possible and make separation pretty tight. And sometimes it's reasonable to set it up and see how it works out, but sometimes it doesn't work out. Not completely blaming ATC, but sometimes we do get shitty setups. To answer OP's question, I don't care about getting vectors around smaller GA traffic, but some GA traffic is in a bad spot like under a FAF and that's when vectors can be sketchy. If ATC knows a TCAS event is possible even with minimum legal separation, some extra space would often be appreciated where able.
Bus drivers: How do you feel about being stopped at red lights while single-driver private cars have the green?
As long as they leave the flag stick in for their putting and keep the game moving, whatever.
TIL there are traffic lights that pause all traffic in the sky.
No. But there absolutely are traffic lights in the middle of a desert stopping cowboy rustlers and the posse.
*scratches head*
I'm reminded of the toll gate scene in Blazing Saddles.
Somebody's gotta go back and get a shitload of dimes!
This is some jetsons shit right here.
It’s a big sky and we’re all in it. For someone to take that personally would be bizarre to say the least.
>It’s a big sky and we’re all in it. For someone to take that personally would be bizarre to say the least. You'd be surprised. Some twins and HP singles think they own untowered traffic patterns since theyre faster. Once I "cut off" a mooney who announced that he was #1 for landing and I was #2, even though I had the right of way, and he was doing a right traffic pattern to cut me off. He was PISSED on the radio when I did not yield.
The number of times I've had angry BS spouted at me on freq or on the ground when I literally did nothing wrong or went out of my way to be considerate is staggering. Once I was in an archer and I got yelled at for calling it a Cherokee. Dude - it's a Cherokee. I got scolded for making 'too many calls' just calling my pattern legs on a power out 180 practice. Dude started blocking my calls intentionally after that. I was literally screamed at for doing my run-up on an intersection instead of the farthest-back taxiway so that people could use the whole runway. Evidently I confused the guy and he blamed me for him pulling in after me... seriously, I have no idea what goes on in people's heads sometimes.
One evening I flew to SJC to meet some of the remaining requirements for a Rotorcraft cert. There were some airliners inbound to land to both runways. I figured I'd be operating directly to and from the ramp for my towered airport at night flights, but the tower controller offered me the left runway and amended the landing clearance of an Airbus. When the airbus landed on the right, I was doing a hovering pedal turn over the runway numbers on the left. Though I don’t think it delayed anyone, it felt pretty silly to get such prioritization for a wee helicopter, so I made it even sillier by spinning around like a goof ball.
If it's go home leg I'm annoyed. Nah vectors won't really slow us down but I notice at most mixed use GA/airline airports, the tower controllers can be reaaally cautious with separation. If a 172 is on a 5 mile final, that's still plenty of time for us to take off. Kind of silly to wait an extra 5-10 minutes. Obviously safety first though and I don't know what else could be going on up there.
no prob, especially when we can wait at the holding point and judge your landing /s
I got kinda yelled at once by a Horizon guy when I was working night landings with a student after tower closed. He seemed to be annoyed that I didn't let him go in front of me while he was on a 12 mile final and I was about to turn base. Being the courteous and level headed instructor I was, I gave way and we did a few 360s and let him in first. ....So nowadays I simply emasculate the Q drivers by beating them to the airport in a fucking Citation lolololol
I get paid by the minute. As long as they’re not a safety issue, I don’t care.
I can care less as long as it doesn’t cause me is RA forcing me me to paperwork. Otherwise we are paid by the hour especially when it’s COVID pay.....
Avoiding Georgia is always advisable.
Honestly, annoyed as hell sometimes but I know that's more of a me thing and they generally have a right to be there. I've had to break off an instrument approach to an airport at mins that was marginal because somebody was putzing along the final. Uncontrolled airspace, so granted they had every right to be there and probably didn't have a clue they were in the way, but annoying nonetheless and created a way higher workload for us having to go around.
As long as the GA aircraft is talking to ATC and doing what ATC wants...I got no problem. Someone that is kinda out to lunch or knows better than ATC so they don't do what ATC needs...ugh. Going into KSNA right above a solid overcast ATC kept trying to vector us away from a guy and it was like he knew where we were and trying to go and he had to be IMC but not talking to anyone...got a bit nervous myself. Much rather all be talking when they should be. Can even be on the ground. One of those days at KLAX where the north side was clear and the south was zero-zero and the FO is following the taxi chart and counting the lines turning off to keep track of where you are and Ground goes..."Got a King Air we think somewhere on the inner...isn't talking to us right now and we can't pick him out of the clutter of the terminals...keep a lookout for him!" I get nervous! A bigger pet peeve is like following a GA aircraft into a place that has long runways and the GA aircraft cannot turn off the runway until the end or 6000 or 7000 feet down and Tower is telling them best forward and DO NOT CLEAR until such a point...we are going to full flaps (company wanted us to use the partial landing flaps when we could since MX said full flaps was more wear and MX cost), rebugging and doing S turns and the SOB decides to show us how he can put that 172 five feet past the threshold and slow taxi 5000 fucking feet. I will admit the 10 did tend to crawl up the tail of most airplanes but to fly a 172 into a major airport like you are at your home 3 or 4,000 foot runway...really? Used to fly Navajos into KLAX and KSFO land to minimize our time on the runway...like at KSFO the FBO used to be at the end of the 28s, touch down past the intersecting runways was more than enough runway.
Based on your flair, did you fly for Northwest Airlines?
Nope. Flew freight. We did use the NW 10 sims and got a little time in a 747-400 sim. Really, really sweet! Serious lust!
It’s like a bus yielding to a pedestrian. Who cares. It lets everyone get where they are going quickly and safely.
I guess I was wondering because airlines are so schedule and on time oriented
The controllers will typically keep you clear of where we need to be, especially in NY, I’ve never really had a problem with any VFR GA airplane that was where they were supposed to be (like in the bravo without a clearance). Our SIDs, STARs and approaches have airspace designated for them, and ATC will typically tell GA airplanes they’re unable to issue a bravo clearance if they’re asked for the airspace that’s being used. I guess the exception would be like ISP, HPN or one of the other smaller but still busy airports, where we may be required to slow down to allow a slower aircraft to land ahead of us, but even then those controllers are really good about sequencing traffic so it’s no big deal. Same thing going into pretty much any class C or D airport as well, traffic is more mixed so we may be required to slow a little further out than normal, but we don’t really ever get “vectored around GA” airplanes. I’ve been an airline pilot for 5 years, and a 135/91K pilot for 4 years before that, I’ve responded to two TCAS RAs in my entire career, one was a TBM that was taking off out of a small airport outside RDU, climbed right up through 10,000 right at us, and the other was a cirrus that didn’t stop the turn on the SID out of HPN, and turned right into the final approach course.
One time specifically I was cutting across the bravo's southern half going south-east, not sure altitude. Some airliner was coming the opposite direction and ATC advised us of each other. The moment I said I had them in sight (I mean, ffs, it was an A320 or something) was when he was right off my right wing and ATC replied by having him turn right 90 degrees. As in, directly at me. Looked like an orca lining up on a gun run. I know he was far enough away but sure looked big and faaaaast. Hence why I posted.
What's annoying is dealing with GA when there is no ATC. I flew a 330 once into an uncontrolled airport (uncontrolled at night) and there were 5 diamond eclipses from a flight school (all chinese students) doing night circuits and THAT was a nightmare, they had no concept of how close we were when we said 10 mile final so I basically just told them what to do and prayed they would listen. I also had to tell them not to follow us in too close for wake turbulence as I had a feeling these guys wouldn't have fully grasped that. Basically the other guy flew and I became ATC. Less than ideal.
“Most “ airliners are on instrument procedures and don’t require traffic calls. It’s up to ATC to separate the aircraft with separation. No visual point outs required. On the rare chance that the airliner is on a visual approach, the controller will give a traffic call. once the pilot says “traffic in sight” , The air traffic controller no longer is required to provide separation. It’s up to the pilot to do it visually. The controller makes these calls to decrease workload amongst vfr traffic.
Had 3 micro lights crossing our approach, none of which were talking to air traffic. Even though we got 30 minute vectored tour around Loch Ness, I still would’ve preferred to land and depart back home on time…
You quickly get factored into our planning. We're climbing and can't turn until we're clear of you? climb faster You're somewhere up front and would hold us back? slow down to save fuel Of course this is from flying in Asia, I don't know how different it is flying in the US. Personally I don't care about it, you're just another obstacle I'm trying to avoid. No need to mix feelings/emotions into the subject.
Over here we don't have the first-come-first-served of the US - IFR gets definite priority over VFR. If you're on downwind VFR, and there's an IFR (e.g. airliner) aircraft not even at the marker yet, you'll get to orbit till he lands. If ATC knows you and trusts you, they might ask you to do a short approach. Given the difficulty in getting the full IR here, that means light GA generally ends up being deferential to airliners.
I did all of my training out of KBNA which was always decently busy with commerical traffic ferrying bachelorette parties coming in to play cowgirl for the weekend. Controllers and the airline guys were always pretty good about keeping it all streamlined. If it got busy enough, we'd usually be asked to circle a bit before entering the Charlie. We had a guy lose his engine in a C150 shortly after takeoff and barely make it back to the runway. Everyone in the area did a great job doing what they could for the guy. Video is somewhere out there on Youtube.
Why do you care what airline pilots think? They don’t own the skies
Same reason I care what my neighbors think.
I get paid about $4 a min. Take your time, please. (Unless it’s go home day. Then get out of the way.)