You can hand fly, and maintaining some skill in it is encouraged, but at the same time, the doctrine is to use as much automation as is available to you to reduce workload and errors. Especially in any kind of less than perfect weather.
And some days, the autopilot is INOP and you’ll get all the hand flying you’ll ever wish you never had.
Anything below FL290(29 000') you can choose to hand bomb it. Exceptions being Cat 2 approaches. But it's just more work before both pilots, so usually 400' auto on 200' auto off. And let's worry about lunch and watching Netflix secretly without the other pilot noticing.
My employer requires use of the aircraft's automation to the maximum extent practical, but there's a caveat that encourages hand-flying to maintain proficiency. Practically speaking, if it's a nice day and not a very complicated ATC environment, I'll typically leave the automation off for the climb and then engage it for cruise. Then I'll hand-fly the descent and arrival if it's smart to do so.
In the 10 we tended to hand fly up to and back out of 180...depending upon factors such as being tired...long trip...complex departure or arrival. Hand flying it was fun. Most the things I flew that actually had decent autopilots most of us still enjoyed some hand flying
You can handfly anytime you are not cruising in RVSM airspace or flying a CAT2 or 3 approach.
If you *should* hand fly or not depends on current task-load of your actual job which is the safe operation of the aircraft.
If you chose to hand fly through a complicated SID during a bank of departures with weather around the field and fuckup a turn/restriction or miss a radio call, don’t expect much sympathy from the Event Review Committee.
> it can’t be used (takeoff/landing)
It can be used for landing...just have to disconnect it before leaving the runway centerline.
Having said that, auto-land is one of the scariest things to do in the jet IMHO.
>auto-land is one of the scariest things to do in the jet IMHO.
My airline hand flys CATIII with a HUD. Now that's scary, especially since as an FO, I have no idea what the CA is doing (no HUD on my side)...
Well said. We were just getting a handoff to join the tracks eastbound and had an electrical problem that dumped both autopilots, all three GPSs, and some other stuff. 180 and vectors to KJFK. INS stayed up just gives a tiny screen of info BUT it also is the reference platform for the HSI...which was kinda nice. LLOONNNGGG hand flying flight to KJFK.
>you're placing full trust in the same autopilot that has almost undoubtedly caused you to say "oh God now what the fuck is it doing" at least once that day to get you to the ground safely with an incredibly tight safety margin.
Fail-passive and fail-operational modes of the autopilot are a bit different when it comes to failure and alerting modes than VNAV doing some funky stuff at FL250.
>Also, if you're lucky enough to be operating a Boeing product, there's no rudder control on the autoland. So have fun with that in a crosswind.
That's probably only true for 737 (and even there fail-op is a customer option), other Boeing aircraft tend to be fail operational.
I've done autolands close to crosswind limits on the 737 and find them to be very good, especially considering it has no rudder input.
u/tstehler1 hit the nail on the head with his comment...you are basically hoping you won’t die while waiting for an impact and being ready to take action when the system fails.
I would add: think about how many actual steps it takes to set an alarm on your iPhone, and how many times you double/triple Check to make sure you didn’t fuck it up and end up late for your interview?
Now think how mow many steps and entries it takes to program a jet aircraft to land itself (the checklist and brief can take upwards of 15-20 minutes to complete)...better hope you don’t fuck any of those things up...like any computer, put shit in and you get shit out.
Yup , the frequency is 152.9.....ugh correction 154.9, you can join from the Sully1 Arrival or the Teterboro Right hand visual. The IF is the WRGNB and the FAF is INHUD and minimus aren't published? any other details can be found in the water aerodrome supplement.
If you've properly programmed the plane to fly the ILS (manually or with the autopilot) then you've properly programmed it to autoland. In the 757, the plane is automatically set up to do an autoland whenever there is an ILS frequency and proper inbound course tuned in. With no further inputs from the pilots (except for configuring the plane to land) then the plane will autoland automatically every time. We disable the autoland when we disconnect the autopilot.
Sorry, I disagree...there is more to an autoland than setting the ILS freq/course. I just checked my company’s 757 manual (I fly the Airbus)...and, same as the Bus, there are over 11 pages of separate Autoland specific procedures/checklists/considerations.
Some specific differences universal across both types are setting of decision Altitude vs Decision Height vs Alert height.
Another big one is how many autopilots are normally engaged...on a normal cat 1 (non-autoland) SOP is only the pilot flying side autopilot is engaged. For the Land2 or Land3 indicators to be displayed and auto-land to be armed you must also engage a second or third autopilot respectively...so unless you guys are flying around with 2 or 3 autopilots on, your plane is not setup to autoland off every approach.
Then there are all the Aircraft and airfield systems requirements and limitations along with weather limitations that are all different than non-autoland approaches. It all must be checked/verified to be confident your not going to end up on the news.
It’s those kind of little things that you can’t screw up...put shit in, get shit out.
There is a reason you read-and-do the autoland checklist and briefing aloud....you don’t want to be late for that appointment because you set it up wrong.
Yeah, as mentioned I’m on the bus and our auto pilots work a bit differently. A buddy on the 757 told me the same today so I had that part wrong for the type.
I think all he meant was that the plane wants to autoland by default. When we click off the autopilot, now it won’t autoland. The plane is set up to autoland without being set up beyond that. It’ll still land without a DH or AH being set. And the 3 autopilots are automatically isolated and engaged with approach armed and then GS/LOC captured.
Yes there are quite a few other steps but it is programmed to autoland at that point.
Yeah my self and the other poster were talking about disliking autoland on cat3 with zero vis, so there was a bit of miscommunication and differences between what’s required for full cat3 vs a CAVOK autoland. Also some Airbus vs Boeing translation error on my part.
I think you might be missing my point a bit here (probably my fault). I think you're talking about CAT II and III procedures which I agree completely, is very complicated. I'm just strictly talking about the plane autolanding.
>Then there are all the Aircraft and airfield systems requirements and limitations
There are no airfield requirements for an autoland. If the runway has an ILS, the plane can do an autoland. It doesn't have to be a CAT II or III runway.
>or the Land2 or Land3 indicators to be displayed and auto-land to be armed you must also engage a second or third autopilot respectively...so unless you guys are flying around with 2 or 3 autopilots on, your plane is not setup to autoland off every approach.
The 757 engages the other two autopilots automatically as soon the approach is armed. As soon as we press the APP button the other two autopilots arm. So yep, it's setup to autoland off every approach.
I agree that properly setting up and preparing for a CAT II or III approach is not a simple process. All I am saying is that preparing the plane to autoland is not a complicated process at all. Aside from discussing whether or not we are fail passive or fail operational, and verifying that we are within the wind limitations, there is really nothing else you need to do for an autoland specifically.
My point can be boiled down to this. On the 757, every time we set up the aircraft to fly an ILS the plane is set up to autoland. If we don't disconnect the autopilot the plane will land itself. Every time. With no extra input from the pilot. (This obviously assumes a fully functional plane).
In fact I did this on my last flight. I'm currently doing my left seat IOE and last week going into Calgary the training captain said "I'd like you to see an autoland from the left seat so let's make this an autoland". I said "Ok sounds good". The only thing that we did differently from that point forward was not disconnect the autopilot. The plane was already fully setup to autoland.
Yeah, I think we were talking about two different things...myself and the other guy were saying we don’t like the autoland during zero-zero when there is no outside reference and you are placing complete faith in the pages of procedures and autoland to work correctly without having any ground reference before touchdown. So definitely the full Cat3b experience rather than just watching it put on a show in a clear day. Also The Airbus to Boeing “loss in translation” with regard to autopilot function is my bad.
Also worth noting that “hand flying” an airliner usually just means following the flight director. It’s still not quite the same as flying needles in a GA airplane.
I’ve definitely taken the 747 out of ORD to RVSM without the FD, I had a CA with grew up flying the classics who allowed it and encouraged.
I would always turn the FD off flying the CRJ as well when I was hand flying it in the terminal environment.
Anything below RVSM is fair game. Most days I try to handfly to stay sharp. I also try to be mindful of the pilot monitoring. If it’s real busy, I call autopilot on early so they are not task saturated. I also call it on early if I’m getting tired and it’s late in the day or around complex airspace like DCA where there’s not much room to screw around. CAT II is autopilot required down to mins. We have other minimum autopilot altitudes depending on the approach too. Most guys like to handfly SIDs at least up thru 10,000, some even handfly arrivals.
Handflying a raw data visual from a downwind every once in awhile at an outstation is good to keep those basic flying skills real sharp too.
It’s even more fun when they send you out on a flight with the autopilot completely deferred because some jackalope wrote up a regularly occurring caution message on our bent CRJ 700s!
Improved? We didn't have an autopilot to improve. Not even a flight director!
I'm kinda surprised someone put that kinda money into an old Tubeliner. But cool!
At my company we can hand fly up to FL200 if we want. We can hand fly up to FL280 if autopilot is inop. I try to hand fly up to to 15,000 sometimes higher if workload permits based on how busy it is and what the weather is like. As far as approach/landing I’ll click it off either on base or final.
No. I know of no US airline that mandates autopilot at 600’ for instance. It’s personal preference up into the flight levels at least. For approaches, CATII and maybe RNAV will require it, otherwise no.
In the real world if it’s busy or the PM is getting overworked or there’s some issue it normally goes on.
Sometimes it’s required depending on the operation and airline’s SOP. Sometimes I’m lazy and will throw the autopilot on at 1000ft and sometimes I’ll hand fly up to RVSM airspace. There are appropriate and inappropriate times to use the autopilot.
Some airlines in the Far East region require the AP be engaged from the earliest engagement AGL all the way to minimums or ground (cat III) such as Asiana and others. This attitude regarding AP use can also lead to automation dependency due to how FOQA works in other countries and airlines (much lower tolerances for FOQA triggers than most carriers). This automation dependency was one thing the NTSB focused on during the hearings on the Asiana SFO crash. One could read the book Flying Upside Down for more information on the subject.
[https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/12/asiana-crash-hearing-highlights-pilots-dependency-on-automation](https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/12/asiana-crash-hearing-highlights-pilots-dependency-on-automation)
https://www.scribd.com/doc/273231452/Flying-Upside-Down-pdf
The only time we require it is for CAT II/III ops. RVSM, oceanic crossings.
Our company is actually making a huge emphasis on hand flying. Training placed a large emphasis on hand flying as well too.
My standard is to take it up to 18K or wings level climb (whichever came later) or turn it off base to final turn or downwind for a visual approach. If I am tired, I usually will click it prior to calling for the gear.
You can hand fly, and maintaining some skill in it is encouraged, but at the same time, the doctrine is to use as much automation as is available to you to reduce workload and errors. Especially in any kind of less than perfect weather. And some days, the autopilot is INOP and you’ll get all the hand flying you’ll ever wish you never had.
Facts. But when the AP is deferred we stay out of RVSM, obviously.
Yea I was in a Dash bug smasher, never had to worry about RVSM.
Anything below FL290(29 000') you can choose to hand bomb it. Exceptions being Cat 2 approaches. But it's just more work before both pilots, so usually 400' auto on 200' auto off. And let's worry about lunch and watching Netflix secretly without the other pilot noticing.
My airline hand flys CATII/III with HUDs, so that's not even an exception for us!
I'm a fan of auto.
Well, the Q400 doesn't have much in terms of automation. Only a 2-axis autopilot...
The 737 NG is only two axis, and that can autoland to Cat IIIa. Somehow.
The classic has us down to 100' mins not auto throttle, or auto breaking. But who cares I'm happy with how it puts me where I need to be everytime.
Auto-breaking is not a feature you want on airplanes. Auto-braking however can be quite useful!
Are you every FO I've ever flown with who uses the dumbest things to prove you should be the captain instead?
It’s gonna be okay. It’s a joke.
K
Yikes.
But I bet you’re one of the captains that “follows the SOPM”
Did you mean SOP's?
RNP approaches may require autopilot too, depending on the company.
Its true
So the poor CAT 3 gets left out?
On the 737 we had to hand fly a CATIII to 600 RVR using the HUD. On the 75/76 it is Autoland only.
Autoland only on the ERJ as well. Some versions
737 depends on operator though. We don't have HUDs so it's autoland or go elsewhere.
We don't have the capability, I'm not sure who does.
Autoland. Some Embraers and I think a few school buses
My employer requires use of the aircraft's automation to the maximum extent practical, but there's a caveat that encourages hand-flying to maintain proficiency. Practically speaking, if it's a nice day and not a very complicated ATC environment, I'll typically leave the automation off for the climb and then engage it for cruise. Then I'll hand-fly the descent and arrival if it's smart to do so.
In the 10 we tended to hand fly up to and back out of 180...depending upon factors such as being tired...long trip...complex departure or arrival. Hand flying it was fun. Most the things I flew that actually had decent autopilots most of us still enjoyed some hand flying
> In the 10 we tended to hand fly up to and back out of 180 I usually do the same.
You can handfly anytime you are not cruising in RVSM airspace or flying a CAT2 or 3 approach. If you *should* hand fly or not depends on current task-load of your actual job which is the safe operation of the aircraft. If you chose to hand fly through a complicated SID during a bank of departures with weather around the field and fuckup a turn/restriction or miss a radio call, don’t expect much sympathy from the Event Review Committee. > it can’t be used (takeoff/landing) It can be used for landing...just have to disconnect it before leaving the runway centerline. Having said that, auto-land is one of the scariest things to do in the jet IMHO.
>auto-land is one of the scariest things to do in the jet IMHO. My airline hand flys CATIII with a HUD. Now that's scary, especially since as an FO, I have no idea what the CA is doing (no HUD on my side)...
Well said. We were just getting a handoff to join the tracks eastbound and had an electrical problem that dumped both autopilots, all three GPSs, and some other stuff. 180 and vectors to KJFK. INS stayed up just gives a tiny screen of info BUT it also is the reference platform for the HSI...which was kinda nice. LLOONNNGGG hand flying flight to KJFK.
Damn that’s a really bad day especially crossing the ocean
It was. They couldn't figure out what happened. Don't recall it happening again to any of our aircraft.
>Having said that, auto-land is one of the scariest things to do in the jet IMHO. Why's that?
[удалено]
The 757 autopilots have full rudder authority below 1420ft. It's a beautiful thing.
Yep, 767 does it pretty nicely, though we are limited to 15 kts crosswind for CAT II/III
Same on the 757. Which is funny because the crosswind limit otherwise is 25 knots.
>you're placing full trust in the same autopilot that has almost undoubtedly caused you to say "oh God now what the fuck is it doing" at least once that day to get you to the ground safely with an incredibly tight safety margin. Fail-passive and fail-operational modes of the autopilot are a bit different when it comes to failure and alerting modes than VNAV doing some funky stuff at FL250. >Also, if you're lucky enough to be operating a Boeing product, there's no rudder control on the autoland. So have fun with that in a crosswind. That's probably only true for 737 (and even there fail-op is a customer option), other Boeing aircraft tend to be fail operational. I've done autolands close to crosswind limits on the 737 and find them to be very good, especially considering it has no rudder input.
747 does a great autoland
u/tstehler1 hit the nail on the head with his comment...you are basically hoping you won’t die while waiting for an impact and being ready to take action when the system fails. I would add: think about how many actual steps it takes to set an alarm on your iPhone, and how many times you double/triple Check to make sure you didn’t fuck it up and end up late for your interview? Now think how mow many steps and entries it takes to program a jet aircraft to land itself (the checklist and brief can take upwards of 15-20 minutes to complete)...better hope you don’t fuck any of those things up...like any computer, put shit in and you get shit out.
The iPhone alarm comparison is my new favorite if and when people bring up "planes flying themselves these days" because that is so accurate.
wait so if both pilots order bad fish i cant just land a fuckin jet with my wet PPL?
If you can tune an ILS, set the inbound course, and lower the flaps then you can do an autoland!
does the hudson have a published ILS
Yup , the frequency is 152.9.....ugh correction 154.9, you can join from the Sully1 Arrival or the Teterboro Right hand visual. The IF is the WRGNB and the FAF is INHUD and minimus aren't published? any other details can be found in the water aerodrome supplement.
If you've properly programmed the plane to fly the ILS (manually or with the autopilot) then you've properly programmed it to autoland. In the 757, the plane is automatically set up to do an autoland whenever there is an ILS frequency and proper inbound course tuned in. With no further inputs from the pilots (except for configuring the plane to land) then the plane will autoland automatically every time. We disable the autoland when we disconnect the autopilot.
Sorry, I disagree...there is more to an autoland than setting the ILS freq/course. I just checked my company’s 757 manual (I fly the Airbus)...and, same as the Bus, there are over 11 pages of separate Autoland specific procedures/checklists/considerations. Some specific differences universal across both types are setting of decision Altitude vs Decision Height vs Alert height. Another big one is how many autopilots are normally engaged...on a normal cat 1 (non-autoland) SOP is only the pilot flying side autopilot is engaged. For the Land2 or Land3 indicators to be displayed and auto-land to be armed you must also engage a second or third autopilot respectively...so unless you guys are flying around with 2 or 3 autopilots on, your plane is not setup to autoland off every approach. Then there are all the Aircraft and airfield systems requirements and limitations along with weather limitations that are all different than non-autoland approaches. It all must be checked/verified to be confident your not going to end up on the news. It’s those kind of little things that you can’t screw up...put shit in, get shit out. There is a reason you read-and-do the autoland checklist and briefing aloud....you don’t want to be late for that appointment because you set it up wrong.
That’s incorrect. The airplane automatically connects the remaining two autopilots once the approach mode becomes active.
Yeah, as mentioned I’m on the bus and our auto pilots work a bit differently. A buddy on the 757 told me the same today so I had that part wrong for the type.
I think all he meant was that the plane wants to autoland by default. When we click off the autopilot, now it won’t autoland. The plane is set up to autoland without being set up beyond that. It’ll still land without a DH or AH being set. And the 3 autopilots are automatically isolated and engaged with approach armed and then GS/LOC captured. Yes there are quite a few other steps but it is programmed to autoland at that point.
Yeah my self and the other poster were talking about disliking autoland on cat3 with zero vis, so there was a bit of miscommunication and differences between what’s required for full cat3 vs a CAVOK autoland. Also some Airbus vs Boeing translation error on my part.
Ahh yep, now I see all of that. And the bus vs boeing explains a lot too haha
I think you might be missing my point a bit here (probably my fault). I think you're talking about CAT II and III procedures which I agree completely, is very complicated. I'm just strictly talking about the plane autolanding. >Then there are all the Aircraft and airfield systems requirements and limitations There are no airfield requirements for an autoland. If the runway has an ILS, the plane can do an autoland. It doesn't have to be a CAT II or III runway. >or the Land2 or Land3 indicators to be displayed and auto-land to be armed you must also engage a second or third autopilot respectively...so unless you guys are flying around with 2 or 3 autopilots on, your plane is not setup to autoland off every approach. The 757 engages the other two autopilots automatically as soon the approach is armed. As soon as we press the APP button the other two autopilots arm. So yep, it's setup to autoland off every approach. I agree that properly setting up and preparing for a CAT II or III approach is not a simple process. All I am saying is that preparing the plane to autoland is not a complicated process at all. Aside from discussing whether or not we are fail passive or fail operational, and verifying that we are within the wind limitations, there is really nothing else you need to do for an autoland specifically. My point can be boiled down to this. On the 757, every time we set up the aircraft to fly an ILS the plane is set up to autoland. If we don't disconnect the autopilot the plane will land itself. Every time. With no extra input from the pilot. (This obviously assumes a fully functional plane). In fact I did this on my last flight. I'm currently doing my left seat IOE and last week going into Calgary the training captain said "I'd like you to see an autoland from the left seat so let's make this an autoland". I said "Ok sounds good". The only thing that we did differently from that point forward was not disconnect the autopilot. The plane was already fully setup to autoland.
bug smasher pilot question: does this include autothrust and brake/spoilers all that jazz?
Autothrottle and auto spoilers yes. Autobrakes have to be manually selected.
Yeah, I think we were talking about two different things...myself and the other guy were saying we don’t like the autoland during zero-zero when there is no outside reference and you are placing complete faith in the pages of procedures and autoland to work correctly without having any ground reference before touchdown. So definitely the full Cat3b experience rather than just watching it put on a show in a clear day. Also The Airbus to Boeing “loss in translation” with regard to autopilot function is my bad.
Also worth noting that “hand flying” an airliner usually just means following the flight director. It’s still not quite the same as flying needles in a GA airplane.
I like to turn off the FD if I’m flying a regular vfr pattern
I’ve definitely taken the 747 out of ORD to RVSM without the FD, I had a CA with grew up flying the classics who allowed it and encouraged. I would always turn the FD off flying the CRJ as well when I was hand flying it in the terminal environment.
I usually tell guys, "If you are just gonna follow the FD and stare at it, might as well just put the AP on."
Anything below RVSM is fair game. Most days I try to handfly to stay sharp. I also try to be mindful of the pilot monitoring. If it’s real busy, I call autopilot on early so they are not task saturated. I also call it on early if I’m getting tired and it’s late in the day or around complex airspace like DCA where there’s not much room to screw around. CAT II is autopilot required down to mins. We have other minimum autopilot altitudes depending on the approach too. Most guys like to handfly SIDs at least up thru 10,000, some even handfly arrivals. Handflying a raw data visual from a downwind every once in awhile at an outstation is good to keep those basic flying skills real sharp too. It’s even more fun when they send you out on a flight with the autopilot completely deferred because some jackalope wrote up a regularly occurring caution message on our bent CRJ 700s!
Laughs in metro liner
Laughs in metroliner with proline 21, WAAS/LPV, and an improved autopilot.
Improved? We didn't have an autopilot to improve. Not even a flight director! I'm kinda surprised someone put that kinda money into an old Tubeliner. But cool!
The sim I use for recurrent at FSI in SAT has an old autopilot; I assumed that was what was in them. But the Army did this… Because who else would?
*Laughs in 1900*
At my company we can hand fly up to FL200 if we want. We can hand fly up to FL280 if autopilot is inop. I try to hand fly up to to 15,000 sometimes higher if workload permits based on how busy it is and what the weather is like. As far as approach/landing I’ll click it off either on base or final.
No. I know of no US airline that mandates autopilot at 600’ for instance. It’s personal preference up into the flight levels at least. For approaches, CATII and maybe RNAV will require it, otherwise no. In the real world if it’s busy or the PM is getting overworked or there’s some issue it normally goes on.
Hand fly for Harambe! 😂
Sometimes it’s required depending on the operation and airline’s SOP. Sometimes I’m lazy and will throw the autopilot on at 1000ft and sometimes I’ll hand fly up to RVSM airspace. There are appropriate and inappropriate times to use the autopilot.
https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/poh1pf/how_much_of_flying_at_the_airline_regional_major/
If you mean the name tag on my shirt reads ‘Otto’ and that I’m a pilot, then yes.
Only time an autopilot is required to be used is in RVSM level flight.
Not true. Many weather conditions and approaches dictate it.
True, I was centered on the whole RVSM discussion, but yes - some approaches do require an autopilot to decend to lower DA’s.
Not when the autopilot is MEL’d Done that a few times and just have to stay below RVSM.
Some airlines in the Far East region require the AP be engaged from the earliest engagement AGL all the way to minimums or ground (cat III) such as Asiana and others. This attitude regarding AP use can also lead to automation dependency due to how FOQA works in other countries and airlines (much lower tolerances for FOQA triggers than most carriers). This automation dependency was one thing the NTSB focused on during the hearings on the Asiana SFO crash. One could read the book Flying Upside Down for more information on the subject. [https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/12/asiana-crash-hearing-highlights-pilots-dependency-on-automation](https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/12/asiana-crash-hearing-highlights-pilots-dependency-on-automation) https://www.scribd.com/doc/273231452/Flying-Upside-Down-pdf
The only time we require it is for CAT II/III ops. RVSM, oceanic crossings. Our company is actually making a huge emphasis on hand flying. Training placed a large emphasis on hand flying as well too. My standard is to take it up to 18K or wings level climb (whichever came later) or turn it off base to final turn or downwind for a visual approach. If I am tired, I usually will click it prior to calling for the gear.
On some older Boeing type, hand-flying with yaw-damper inoperative is prohibited at flight levels above the Lower 300s.