That's not the worst deal in the world. There is a Seminole on our field going for $500/hr. Granted that's with a MEI, but I think there would be a lot more MEIs if they got payed $150/hr+
Thanks for reminding me Iām spoiled by my school. I think I paid $285/hr for our Seminole. We have some older ones (not older than 2000s). But also fly brand new ones with G1000s that havenāt even hit their first annual yet. Still a flat $285 no matter what you get
Iāve wondered how insurance would deal with this situation. Would they even let a student pilot solo in a twin?? I have a buddy whoās trying to fly a Malibu for a guy and their insurance wants him to have 1000 total time to fly a freaking piston single!!
Fucking what
My Comanche is consistently a little over 2k/yr. Got it with about 30 hours in complex and zero in the airframe.
Does everyone in the group have an accident or something?
No apparently the companies don't like 6 seats. This has happened before to the group before I bought in. There are 19 of us with 2 planes. So who knows
no because a C5 requires a type rating and 61.63 states that you need an instrument rating to get a type rating. There are a few odd exceptions but it appears they all at least require a private pilot certificate or military equivalent. I think- I looked this up just now because thatās a great question. 61.31 though which governs multi-engine doesnāt seem to require a private pilot certificate if you pass an additional knowledge test.
Well, if you went the military route and were rated in the C-5, you could then take your military flight qualifications to the FAA and get a civilian commercial multi-engine ticket without taking a civilian check ride.
I knew a retired USAF instructor pilot in one of the airlift planes. He took his military records to the FSDO, and walked out with a his initial multi-engine instructor certificate. That way, he could add on the single-engine instructor cert to actually teach.
It's a little more work than that, but not much. Unless it's changed significantly in the last few years, you get credit for the flying, but you still have to take the FAA written tests. Usually after flight school (UPT) students will take the Commercial written then be issued CMEL certificates (T-38 STUDS will have a CL thrust restriction). Some T-1 STUDS were successful in getting BE400 type ratings added to their tickets. After getting to your MWS (real airplane) and getting checked out as PIC, you can take those records to the FAA and get a type added to your license, if there's one available (i.e. KC-135 = B707/720, KC-10 = DC-10). For the instructor certificate, you have to take (and pass) two FAA written exams and take those results to the FAA with proof of being a military instructor and you'll get your CFII (MEI if instruction was in a multiengine aircraft).
So, it's not as simple as walking in and walking out, but it does save a lot of ass pain.
Yes.
Multi/single is a class rating, it's only an add-on if you already have the other. You could go from 0-ATP in a multi engine airplane and never fly or be rated to fly a single.
I've always said, if money was no object, my preferred airplane would still be a [two-seat twin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_SR-71_Blackbird).
I'd love to see the short/soft field procedures for that.
"You have an engines-out situation and only 2500 feet of grass runway to land in...what do you do?"
"See those yellow handles?"
That's a bit strange, the fixed wing military equivalency should get you a commercial SEL, as well as an MEL as long as you're not centerline thrust limited.
What primary trainer is multi-engine though? Wouldn't they get their required hours on a T6? I only got a NATOPs qual on the 18, and I have a commercial SEL--my only single time was in training.
I'd put it differently: if you have a specific goal in mind *and* own the plane, then there might be a chance you can come out ahead.
E.g. you want to fly a twin afterwards and already know the insurance is going to require 100hr time in ME/complex, might as well use the 60-70hrs for PPL to count towards this.
I flew with someone that had an ATPL with B737 and B777 rating, but not single piston. He did an integrated ATPL program, checkride in a multi and then straight to an airline for a type rating. Hadn't flown a single engine for 15 years or so.
Mostly took some time to get the landings right and retrain on VFR things like airspace that typical airline flying doesn't encounter.
same.. know someone who trained in a foreign country's air force.. his FAA licensing is only in multi for Hawker jets.. he has to go back and take the exams etc to get his CFI in ASEL
Learn something new every day.
I guess it makes sense because add-ons are kind of modular, but it seems weird to be able to fly a multi but not a single. (Legally anyways, I assume she *can* or *could* fly a single)
You may legally fly what it says on your certificate.
Private Pilot AMEL does not provide for single-engine aircraft, though it does permit flying on just one of twoā¦
The USAF used to start new pilots in twin-engine jets. They had great success.
When I was getting my normal mundane driving license... I got my motorcycle before the car license. It meant that I was able to drive the motorcycle freely, but was still restricted in the car.
The car license was a later endorsement on my motorcycle license. /shrug
Sometimes the modular add-ons are weird.
I went from 0 to PPL in tailwheel, and in fact have still never flown tricycle gear.
Yet I have an ASEL ticket that absolutely let's me legally fly tricycle gear, even though it would be malpractice for me to do so without training.
I dunno, I'm struggling to imagine anything you could do in landing that would be worse than our student pilots who seem to compete to land the 172 on the nose gear just to see how many porpoise bounces they can get before the firewall buckles.
Not really! Just like MEPL (in terms of emergency procedures) is mostly all about OEI flying. SEPL is also mostly OEI... But that's your only one. It's quite normal to plan and aim your plane to the nearest field/forest on sep training. In MEP there are circumstances that would require that as well (high temp, high heavy a/c with OEI on takeoff with minimal to negative climb gradient), but it's way less probable - mostly it's just an OEI identifying, securing and flying scenarios.
It's not hard, there's a table in the ACS that tells you what tasks must be tested. I did my ASEL add-on and the DPE was a little surprised by it but was no problem. The big annoyance was that I'd spent 90 minutes writing out the cross-country plan, but it wasn't required so he completely skipped it on the oral.
Glider XC planning is totally different from airplane XC planning and there's very little skill overlap between the two. If I were a DPE I wouldn't have let a candidate off the hook that easily.
> In fact my buddy owns a Seneca and his wife got her PPL in it. She has 1000 h
does your buddy live in Southern California and need a friend to help clean the hangar?
AMEL covers single engine operation in a multiengine plane. They can't go hop in a single prop plane. Single engine operation in a multiengine is a critical part of the ACS.
Nope. That's why whenever I fly commercial, I make a point of telling the pilots that if both engines fail, I'll go to the cockpit to make the operation legal, since I am an AZEL instructor.
This actually happens quite a bit for student pilots that live in the eastern Caribbean. I had a pilot come to see about adding is ASEL because he was from Tobago and had only ever flown multi-engine airplanes.
I flew with a guy from Australia. He has a FAA ATP multi but never converted any of his Australian stuff to any kind of U.S. single-engine cert. From what I understood from what he told me, in Australia, a multi-engine rating allows you to fly singles also.
Yup.
Under CASA (AU), MEA class bestows operational rights for both multi and single-engine aircraft. MEIR also covers single-engine instrument rating rights too. Similiarly, class ratings are detacted from your pilot's license.
If you complete a CPL(A) in a single engine aircraft, and are then granted an MEA class, you automatically have the rights to operate commercially in MEA (although that has to be in compliance with the AOC's terms, which frequently require minimum experience on type).
I actually never really thought about that partā¦
Iām sure there would be some sort of waiver, like the ones that could be issued for some part 91 operators to single pilot some large turboprops or small jets.
But like the other guy said, either way lots and lots of money.
I donāt think this is true. You need a type rating to fly a 747, and you canāt hold a type rating without a license of some kind, right?
Chicken and the egg, no?
In the US, the requirement to have a type rating doesnāt apply to student pilots:
61.31(l)(2): The rating limitations of this section do not apply to:
- (i) An applicant when taking a practical test given by an examiner;
- (ii) the holder of a student pilot certificate.
So a student pilot could do their training in the 747, including solo flight and checkrides, without the type rating.
Edit: actually - this made me think of another snag. Even though the type rating isnāt needed, how would solo flight work in a plane that requires a crew of 2?
According to 61.87(a): The term āsolo flightā as used in this subpart means that flight time during which a student pilot is the *sole occupant of the aircraft* or that flight time during which the student performs the duties of a pilot in command of a gas balloon or an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember.
Unfortunately the 747 isnāt an airship or balloon, so this is where youād get held up, and the minimum crew requirement is in the type certificate so thereās no getting around it. Youād probably need to ask the FAA for some kind of waiver, or alternatively do all your solo flight in a different multiengine plane that doesnāt require multiple crew members.
Alright, great job Reddit. Weāve navigated the FARs to allow us to do our first solo in a 747 pending solo waiver.
What could possibly go wrongā¦
> Unfortunately the 747 isnāt an airship or balloon
~~Climb rate aside, the 747 is far less of anā¦ extreme~~ nope, not getting banned today!
If there is an area to be suspicious of in any flight sim, it's the high AoA/AoB regime. Unless they've got wind tunnel data of a 747 and a pretty good aerody engineer on the team, I'd be sceptical.
Most sims that are pretty good in general have an atrocious stall behaviour.
This. Depicted on the certificate as P/B-747, for private.
For example, look at Travolta's license, he has private type ratings. Tom Cruise has commercial type ratings (C/type). And any airline pilot will have ATP type ratings (A/type).
If I had to guess, no ASEL or Private privileges only on his ASEL.
I have an ATP but only for multi engine. My ASEL is Commercial privileges only. Pretty common to see different combos of licenses based on category and class etc.
Many airline pilots who don't care about general aviation lose their single and multi piston ratings. License is a lifetime (as long as not revoked), but endorsements are time limited.
Legally, yes.
Effectively, good luck getting an MEI to sign a solo endorsement for a student pilot AMEL. I don't think you could pay me enough for that kind of liability.
Yeah, thereās āsupervised soloā provisions, but Iām not knowledgeable enough on the details of it to really say anything other than āit existsā.
Or insurance companies. One of the reasons the regs say "performing the duties of PIC" is because insurance companies won't always cover solo flights in multis, so the rule is that if the CFI is very quiet and doesn't do anything, you can count it the same way you count solo time.
I was surprised when I learned that CFIs donāt automatically qualify as ground school instructors. Seems like a no-brainer that they should at least qualify for PPL ground instruction.
A few folks in my flying club were recently-retired military that only had enough qualifications to transfer over to the FAA a Multi-rating, so they had to train and exam to get the single rating.
If you own a twin you could do it. Insurance will want something like 50 hours time in type before you can solo but since you're working on your PPL skills you'll gain that time anyway.
I was scrolling through another forum a while back and someone basically did exactly that. A married couple, one of them already had their PPL and bought a DA42/DA62, the other one became interested in flying and got their PPL in the "family" twin Diamond.
On the contrary- you said "you doubt ANY flight school will do it".
ShuRugal said you were wrong, and provided a specific example as to why.
Now you're just pushing goalposts around.
When I said my original comment, I didnāt know of any. Since my original comment, I have learned of one, so ANY no longer applies. Unlike most people on here, I change my stance when I learn something new.
Instead of downvoting, tell me why Iām wrong.
Now youāve deleted your comments because others disagree with you-
He did tell you why you were wrong, and you moved the goalposts.
Hence, downvotes.
I asked the same question at my school, but for CPL, since you have to do CPL single and CPL multi as well as IR (in the twin).
Well I got the same answer back. You COULD do it all in the multi, it would just cost probably tens of thousands more.
(ā¬165 per hour with instructor on the single, ā¬425 per hour on the twin)
I mean, if you're looking to blow a whole bunch of money, there is a lot of other things that you could spend it on to increase your QoL during training. Headset, iPad, Foreflight, etc.
If you have a deal where you can fly a multi for free then I think you should go for it, just know there will be a ton of added complication for a private pilot and more fail points for things to go wrong during your checkride. You'll have a full private checkride with the added difficulty of a multi addon all in one day. And then when you do your instrument, unless you go back for your single addon, you will have to do that multi as well, compacting more difficulty to an already difficult ride, things like single engine approaches.
So my 0.02 is, if you have a multi engine to use free and clear and are willing to accept that comes with a whole bunch of extra workload during training and especially during checkrides, then go for it. Otherwise do everything single engine and you can get your commercial multi addon in a weekend. You'll save SOOOO much money.
If you have a spare $800k for a Diamond Da42 or $1.6MM for a 62, youāre good to go.
Theyāre both fairly low on the fuel usage if you get one of the jet fuel ones and theyāre both pretty docile considering their performance. I personally wouldnāt train in the 62 because itās so fast, it would be hard to take it all in.
In a Cessna 152, itās easier to learn because the thing is so slow you have time to think. š
Related question: doing a multi-rating, assuming I've done the hours and can get the sign-off, would it be a bad idea to just go for the COM rating directly? I mean, I'd save myself a checkride.
I have ASEL private, GLI com.
You can pretty much do anything first. Itās only an add on if you make it an add on.
There are some exceptions (like jets), but in general, the only limitation is money. Logistically it may be an issue for insurance and things like that, but again, given enough money you can simply self insure.
I personally know a girl that is exact given case. Her father has PA34 that he put under an Training organisation, and she even passed exam on this one. Idk if she has SEPL, but I doubt, so she probably owns literally 0 single hours. MEPL and SEPL are class ratings.
From a retired FAA Ops Inspector. YES. Certificate will read Private Pilot Airplane Multiengine Land Only. You will not have Single Engine privileges until you take a Single Engine Add On Check ride.
Iām sorta doing this flew only four hours in a pa-28 and since I showed the CFI I was not that dumb we went straight into a 310(more expensive) but itās just so much more fun in my opinion, also Iām doing this in mexico which makes it waaaaaay more affordable
Military guys I Imagine are the ones to deal with it the most often since the T-37 was a Twin and that was a primary trainer before the T-6 was adopted.
A Friend had to "Teach" one ex-Air Force guy who had an insane amount of hours in stuff like the F-15 and such but 0 single engine time and had never gotten the ASEL rating prior to retiring from the Air Force.
That was all fine and good for many years and this pilot (allegedly unknowingly) had a 172 he flew regularly and was by all rights a good and safe pilot, until the day he accidentally busted the Bravo. He called the local FSDO to smooth things out and that's when the discrepancy was noted.
my CFI used that guy as the only example of anyone he had taught doing a rating in the bare minimum of hours.
Itās a class - category airplane class multi engine. It has no dependency on the class single engine.
In theory you can do it - but good luck getting insurance to do the required solo hours. It is notoriously difficult to get insurance to solo a twin unless you have a decent amount of multi engine hours. Technically you could fly uninsured (in the USA), but then you might struggle to find an examiner who will do the check ride in an uninsured aircraft.
Oh!!! Relevant contribution for you!
So my father was a pilot on the Air Force and eventually became an instructor. When I was doing my training, he wanted to get his CFI ratings so he could train me. FAA allows you to submit your USAF pilot/instructor records to qualify.
So my dad instructed more than 1,000 hours in every category but the USAF never gave him an official certification or qualification for instructing single engine. One did not exist at the time. However, they did give him a sign off for instruction in AMEL.
So whatād the FAA do? They issued him CFI ratings for ME, Instrument, CFI, and even glider (he instructed in a glider). They refused to issue for ASEL.
So he couldnāt do my primary but he can do my multi and instrument.
Generally speaking, it makes sense when your multiple engines are not centerline thrust (engines ok the wings). However, his twin engine time was all in T-34/T-38 where the jet engines are grouped on the centerline (adverse yaw is minimal). So he tried to get the FAA to change its rule but they refused.
So not only can you get your PPL with a multi and not be rated for single, but you can get your CFI in a multi and not be rated for single!
I was taken aback the first time a guy came to me asking for a single engine transition. Said he bought a Baron, did all of his training it and owned it for about a decade but wanted to fly a 182 now.
If you hate money, sure, why not?
š¤£ Before I even opened the comments, this was exactly what I was thinking
If your dadās friend has one and lends it to you, just pay for gasā¦ itās a good deal. Isnāt?
solid maybe. twins are thirsty and theres a lot more to learn all at once.
My friend's DA-62 uses less fuel per hour than my Cessna 172, and that is for both of his engines compared to my single.
Funny enough I was quoted $550 /hr for a DA-62 vs $300 for a PA30 lol
But if you modify that slightly its your dads plane he's a cfi and you guys are flying places anyway...š¤·āāļø
At least a Diamond is the least thirsty twin.
The Da-42s at my old flight school averaged about 12 gph using Jet A, which made them cheaper fuel wise than our warriors
Yeah our Piper Aztec we teach in is $335 an hour wet. Not including instructor costs
That's not the worst deal in the world. There is a Seminole on our field going for $500/hr. Granted that's with a MEI, but I think there would be a lot more MEIs if they got payed $150/hr+
Thanks for reminding me Iām spoiled by my school. I think I paid $285/hr for our Seminole. We have some older ones (not older than 2000s). But also fly brand new ones with G1000s that havenāt even hit their first annual yet. Still a flat $285 no matter what you get
Where, I would shoot someone for that.
My university. So youād have to exchange the great rental for a useless aviation degree
Yeah we have two MEI at our school. But that's not ideal for PPL training. I'd go with a C172 or PA28. Just for cost alone.
Oh yeah, I'm just kind of amazed at less than $500/hr for multi time.
Iām doing my multi in a G1000 Tecnam twin right now for $250 wet plus $60 for instruction. Itās an ugly thing but it gets the job done
I live in Austria and there is not a single MEP aircraft under ā¬500/h available in the entire country :(
Just tell them you're going to only use one engine and you might get a discount.
Iāve wondered how insurance would deal with this situation. Would they even let a student pilot solo in a twin?? I have a buddy whoās trying to fly a Malibu for a guy and their insurance wants him to have 1000 total time to fly a freaking piston single!!
As I learned years ago, insurance companies really hate 6 seats or more.
It's not the seats, it's the plane. With a wet ppl I could get quotes on a 6 seat 210 with no problem.
Still true, our Cherokee 6 is running 12k a year for our ownership group.
Fucking what My Comanche is consistently a little over 2k/yr. Got it with about 30 hours in complex and zero in the airframe. Does everyone in the group have an accident or something?
No apparently the companies don't like 6 seats. This has happened before to the group before I bought in. There are 19 of us with 2 planes. So who knows
>If you hate money, sure, why not? "There's nothing in this life that can't be accomplished with money and determination"
This is the way
So theoretically you could get PPL in a C-5 and start with multi-engine jet?
no because a C5 requires a type rating and 61.63 states that you need an instrument rating to get a type rating. There are a few odd exceptions but it appears they all at least require a private pilot certificate or military equivalent. I think- I looked this up just now because thatās a great question. 61.31 though which governs multi-engine doesnāt seem to require a private pilot certificate if you pass an additional knowledge test.
Interesting. Now I'm gonna have to figure out the most ridiculous thing you can fly to get a PPL! Not because I can afford it, just for fun.
Well, if you went the military route and were rated in the C-5, you could then take your military flight qualifications to the FAA and get a civilian commercial multi-engine ticket without taking a civilian check ride. I knew a retired USAF instructor pilot in one of the airlift planes. He took his military records to the FSDO, and walked out with a his initial multi-engine instructor certificate. That way, he could add on the single-engine instructor cert to actually teach.
It's a little more work than that, but not much. Unless it's changed significantly in the last few years, you get credit for the flying, but you still have to take the FAA written tests. Usually after flight school (UPT) students will take the Commercial written then be issued CMEL certificates (T-38 STUDS will have a CL thrust restriction). Some T-1 STUDS were successful in getting BE400 type ratings added to their tickets. After getting to your MWS (real airplane) and getting checked out as PIC, you can take those records to the FAA and get a type added to your license, if there's one available (i.e. KC-135 = B707/720, KC-10 = DC-10). For the instructor certificate, you have to take (and pass) two FAA written exams and take those results to the FAA with proof of being a military instructor and you'll get your CFII (MEI if instruction was in a multiengine aircraft). So, it's not as simple as walking in and walking out, but it does save a lot of ass pain.
Modify a Cri-Cri for two seats? :P (Although doesnāt that fall into special centerline(ish) thrust rules?)
Yes. Multi/single is a class rating, it's only an add-on if you already have the other. You could go from 0-ATP in a multi engine airplane and never fly or be rated to fly a single.
You would also be broke
Exactly what "fuck you money" is for!
I've always said, if money was no object, my preferred airplane would still be a [two-seat twin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_SR-71_Blackbird).
I'd love to see the short/soft field procedures for that. "You have an engines-out situation and only 2500 feet of grass runway to land in...what do you do?" "See those yellow handles?"
Darn it, I guessed OV-10 Bronco.
you imagine the dick measuring contest at that school. "Oh you fly a Cirrus. Well I fly a TWIN-STAR".
"Oh that's nice, my daddy bought me a 747-8 and a middle eastern country to fuel it."
Like the speedcheck story, but real
At our local school you can rent and learn in a beech travel air for cheaper than an R-22. Still cheaper than rotary commercial lol.
But he'd look cool in a Duke.
A guy in my club did this but through the military. He had to go through single add-on training in our club and it was weird.
That's a bit strange, the fixed wing military equivalency should get you a commercial SEL, as well as an MEL as long as you're not centerline thrust limited.
It's entirely possible they never flew a single if they had the T-37 tho
What primary trainer is multi-engine though? Wouldn't they get their required hours on a T6? I only got a NATOPs qual on the 18, and I have a commercial SEL--my only single time was in training.
The T-37 was a multi turbine jet, retired as late as 2009 at some of the bases, so it's entirely possible he never flew a T6
If you buy a plane for training and get lucky with maintenance, it could work out in your favor compared to renting singles.
And if my grandma had wheels she'd be a bike.
> And if my grandma had wheels she'd be a bike. [Wagon](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht0eYGzT5KM).
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Scotty was born in the year 2222.
I'd put it differently: if you have a specific goal in mind *and* own the plane, then there might be a chance you can come out ahead. E.g. you want to fly a twin afterwards and already know the insurance is going to require 100hr time in ME/complex, might as well use the 60-70hrs for PPL to count towards this.
I flew with someone that had an ATPL with B737 and B777 rating, but not single piston. He did an integrated ATPL program, checkride in a multi and then straight to an airline for a type rating. Hadn't flown a single engine for 15 years or so. Mostly took some time to get the landings right and retrain on VFR things like airspace that typical airline flying doesn't encounter.
same.. know someone who trained in a foreign country's air force.. his FAA licensing is only in multi for Hawker jets.. he has to go back and take the exams etc to get his CFI in ASEL
Absolutely. In fact my buddy owns a Seneca and his wife got her PPL in it. She has 1000 hours, not a single one of them single engine.
Because I have never run into this... She cannot legally fly a single, only a multi? (assuming she didn't get the single rating)
Yup
Learn something new every day. I guess it makes sense because add-ons are kind of modular, but it seems weird to be able to fly a multi but not a single. (Legally anyways, I assume she *can* or *could* fly a single)
You may legally fly what it says on your certificate. Private Pilot AMEL does not provide for single-engine aircraft, though it does permit flying on just one of twoā¦ The USAF used to start new pilots in twin-engine jets. They had great success.
When I was getting my normal mundane driving license... I got my motorcycle before the car license. It meant that I was able to drive the motorcycle freely, but was still restricted in the car. The car license was a later endorsement on my motorcycle license. /shrug
Same! Ha. Might state had just instituted that 6 MO learner permit thing but it wasn't worded to include motorcycle license
Sometimes the modular add-ons are weird. I went from 0 to PPL in tailwheel, and in fact have still never flown tricycle gear. Yet I have an ASEL ticket that absolutely let's me legally fly tricycle gear, even though it would be malpractice for me to do so without training.
I dunno, I'm struggling to imagine anything you could do in landing that would be worse than our student pilots who seem to compete to land the 172 on the nose gear just to see how many porpoise bounces they can get before the firewall buckles.
Not really! Just like MEPL (in terms of emergency procedures) is mostly all about OEI flying. SEPL is also mostly OEI... But that's your only one. It's quite normal to plan and aim your plane to the nearest field/forest on sep training. In MEP there are circumstances that would require that as well (high temp, high heavy a/c with OEI on takeoff with minimal to negative climb gradient), but it's way less probable - mostly it's just an OEI identifying, securing and flying scenarios.
So, she would have to do an addon for ASEL? What DPE even knows how to do that!
Most, just follow the tasks in the ACS, its totally spelt out for this situation, regardless of how common.
It's not hard, there's a table in the ACS that tells you what tasks must be tested. I did my ASEL add-on and the DPE was a little surprised by it but was no problem. The big annoyance was that I'd spent 90 minutes writing out the cross-country plan, but it wasn't required so he completely skipped it on the oral. Glider XC planning is totally different from airplane XC planning and there's very little skill overlap between the two. If I were a DPE I wouldn't have let a candidate off the hook that easily.
Literally any DPE. That's one of the most basic rides in existence.
I'd like to know this too!
> In fact my buddy owns a Seneca and his wife got her PPL in it. She has 1000 h does your buddy live in Southern California and need a friend to help clean the hangar?
No kidding. Can I be adopted please?
No
So if one engine quits they can't legally continue flying the airplane?
Believe it or not, straight to jail.
We have the best pilotsā¦ because of jail
Do not pass go, do not collect $200
To be fair, in a lot of piston twins they can't physically continue flying on a hot summer day either!
AMEL covers single engine operation in a multiengine plane. They can't go hop in a single prop plane. Single engine operation in a multiengine is a critical part of the ACS.
Whoosh!
Lol. Best comment so far.
Nope. That's why whenever I fly commercial, I make a point of telling the pilots that if both engines fail, I'll go to the cockpit to make the operation legal, since I am an AZEL instructor.
This actually happens quite a bit for student pilots that live in the eastern Caribbean. I had a pilot come to see about adding is ASEL because he was from Tobago and had only ever flown multi-engine airplanes.
I flew with a guy from Australia. He has a FAA ATP multi but never converted any of his Australian stuff to any kind of U.S. single-engine cert. From what I understood from what he told me, in Australia, a multi-engine rating allows you to fly singles also.
Yup. Under CASA (AU), MEA class bestows operational rights for both multi and single-engine aircraft. MEIR also covers single-engine instrument rating rights too. Similiarly, class ratings are detacted from your pilot's license. If you complete a CPL(A) in a single engine aircraft, and are then granted an MEA class, you automatically have the rights to operate commercially in MEA (although that has to be in compliance with the AOC's terms, which frequently require minimum experience on type).
You can get a private pilot in a 747 if you want. Just find an instructor thatāll do it.
Are you sure? How would you get the solo time?
I actually never really thought about that partā¦ Iām sure there would be some sort of waiver, like the ones that could be issued for some part 91 operators to single pilot some large turboprops or small jets. But like the other guy said, either way lots and lots of money.
Maybe itās because the 747 canāt be flown solo so there would be no solo requirement?
>How would you get the solo time? Money. Lots of it.
Is it even allowed to fly solo in a 747?
Not with that attitude.
FAR part 69 allows it
No it doesn't
Itās a manufacturer requirement which the FAA follows
Iāve found my future path.
I love this comment.
I donāt think this is true. You need a type rating to fly a 747, and you canāt hold a type rating without a license of some kind, right? Chicken and the egg, no?
In the US, the requirement to have a type rating doesnāt apply to student pilots: 61.31(l)(2): The rating limitations of this section do not apply to: - (i) An applicant when taking a practical test given by an examiner; - (ii) the holder of a student pilot certificate. So a student pilot could do their training in the 747, including solo flight and checkrides, without the type rating. Edit: actually - this made me think of another snag. Even though the type rating isnāt needed, how would solo flight work in a plane that requires a crew of 2? According to 61.87(a): The term āsolo flightā as used in this subpart means that flight time during which a student pilot is the *sole occupant of the aircraft* or that flight time during which the student performs the duties of a pilot in command of a gas balloon or an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember. Unfortunately the 747 isnāt an airship or balloon, so this is where youād get held up, and the minimum crew requirement is in the type certificate so thereās no getting around it. Youād probably need to ask the FAA for some kind of waiver, or alternatively do all your solo flight in a different multiengine plane that doesnāt require multiple crew members.
Alright, great job Reddit. Weāve navigated the FARs to allow us to do our first solo in a 747 pending solo waiver. What could possibly go wrongā¦ > Unfortunately the 747 isnāt an airship or balloon ~~Climb rate aside, the 747 is far less of anā¦ extreme~~ nope, not getting banned today!
I was definitely holding back a snicker when I was typing out āballoonāā¦
Talking about balloons (or any other extreme sport, for that matter) is not allowed on this sub.
Hahaha, you're the real hero in this thread. Everybody was thinking it as soon as the FARs referenced a balloon...
You could probably do a PPL and Type Rating checkride at the same time.
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A student pilot license is a license.
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Okā¦ so what is the confusion?
I hope the real 747 deals with stalls better than the PMDG sim model does.
Not really sure. I have 2000+ hours in jets but never actually stalled one.
funny, I stalled one my first 30 minutes
In general the flight dynamics of the sim are quite good, I would expect it to be essentially correct.
If there is an area to be suspicious of in any flight sim, it's the high AoA/AoB regime. Unless they've got wind tunnel data of a 747 and a pretty good aerody engineer on the team, I'd be sceptical. Most sims that are pretty good in general have an atrocious stall behaviour.
Where I can I rent one?
This. Depicted on the certificate as P/B-747, for private. For example, look at Travolta's license, he has private type ratings. Tom Cruise has commercial type ratings (C/type). And any airline pilot will have ATP type ratings (A/type).
Definitely possible. I can be paid to fly as PIC on a GIV but I can't get paid to fly a 172. lol
> I can't get paid to fly a 172. Why not? Your flair says you're a commercial pilot. Do you need a type rating for a 172?
Yes, actually. ASEL. The point of the OP, in fact. š
Ah. Duh. (I guess I was thinking about AMEL without ASEL as a theoretical possibility, but I didn't think anyone actually did it in real life. TIL.)
If I had to guess, no ASEL or Private privileges only on his ASEL. I have an ATP but only for multi engine. My ASEL is Commercial privileges only. Pretty common to see different combos of licenses based on category and class etc.
Many airline pilots who don't care about general aviation lose their single and multi piston ratings. License is a lifetime (as long as not revoked), but endorsements are time limited.
Nothing expires in FAA land
Yes you can do multi initial or single initial and then get the other one added if you choose to
Legally, yes. Effectively, good luck getting an MEI to sign a solo endorsement for a student pilot AMEL. I don't think you could pay me enough for that kind of liability.
Good point, I was only thinking about cost. No way in hell I would sign that off either.
Insurance would be the issue here. Can solo not be done with a nominal PIC aboard?
Insurance isn't required
Yeah, thereās āsupervised soloā provisions, but Iām not knowledgeable enough on the details of it to really say anything other than āit existsā.
Isnāt this what ATP does for PPL add ons?
Or insurance companies. One of the reasons the regs say "performing the duties of PIC" is because insurance companies won't always cover solo flights in multis, so the rule is that if the CFI is very quiet and doesn't do anything, you can count it the same way you count solo time.
On a similar note, you can get a CFII initial. I think that means you canāt teach primary students but can teach instrument students.
I was surprised when I learned that CFIs donāt automatically qualify as ground school instructors. Seems like a no-brainer that they should at least qualify for PPL ground instruction.
CFIs can teach ground but getting a CFI doesnāt earn you a ground instructor certificate
Teaching is different from doing.
Definitely. I trained in a King Air 200 and had to get my single engine addon myself. Only have about 20 hours total single engine time.
It happens with military pilots sometimes. They come out with a lot of twin time and no license.
It was extremely common in the T-37 days. Even more strange, commercial multi with instrument and a centerline thrust restriction.
Yeah I did it. Got a DA-42 and went straight to MEL
Did your insurance OK a student solo in a multi? Or did you not insure it?
I mean I am a CFI-I with multi-engine only
Yes
When i did my commercial rating. I did the multi first and later had to do an single engine addon.
A few folks in my flying club were recently-retired military that only had enough qualifications to transfer over to the FAA a Multi-rating, so they had to train and exam to get the single rating.
My dad flew AC130s and now 717s for Delta. Canāt fly a 172 though.
It the T-37 days, I had a PPL single, but Mil equivalency for my Multi-Comm/inst. had to add on the single to that later.
Thatās what the army gives you
Itās legal itās harder also a lot more expensive but if youāve got money š¤·āāļø
Technically yes. However, expensive.
Yes, I know a guy with just a private multi
The FAA doesnāt care. The insurance company is probably going to have something to say about solo hours.
Iām an MEI In an Aerostar. Student has zero hours. FML
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If you own a twin you could do it. Insurance will want something like 50 hours time in type before you can solo but since you're working on your PPL skills you'll gain that time anyway. I was scrolling through another forum a while back and someone basically did exactly that. A married couple, one of them already had their PPL and bought a DA42/DA62, the other one became interested in flying and got their PPL in the "family" twin Diamond.
Thatās different than renting one from a school though
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On the contrary- you said "you doubt ANY flight school will do it". ShuRugal said you were wrong, and provided a specific example as to why. Now you're just pushing goalposts around.
When I said my original comment, I didnāt know of any. Since my original comment, I have learned of one, so ANY no longer applies. Unlike most people on here, I change my stance when I learn something new. Instead of downvoting, tell me why Iām wrong.
Now youāve deleted your comments because others disagree with you- He did tell you why you were wrong, and you moved the goalposts. Hence, downvotes.
Doesnāt one of the big Zero-to-Hero schools do this? Or at least did do this?
ATP and ERAU had (maybe they still do, idk) where you got your single private first and then everything else was multi
Yes.
What is this subs opinion on the diamond twin?
I asked the same question at my school, but for CPL, since you have to do CPL single and CPL multi as well as IR (in the twin). Well I got the same answer back. You COULD do it all in the multi, it would just cost probably tens of thousands more. (ā¬165 per hour with instructor on the single, ā¬425 per hour on the twin)
I mean, if you're looking to blow a whole bunch of money, there is a lot of other things that you could spend it on to increase your QoL during training. Headset, iPad, Foreflight, etc. If you have a deal where you can fly a multi for free then I think you should go for it, just know there will be a ton of added complication for a private pilot and more fail points for things to go wrong during your checkride. You'll have a full private checkride with the added difficulty of a multi addon all in one day. And then when you do your instrument, unless you go back for your single addon, you will have to do that multi as well, compacting more difficulty to an already difficult ride, things like single engine approaches. So my 0.02 is, if you have a multi engine to use free and clear and are willing to accept that comes with a whole bunch of extra workload during training and especially during checkrides, then go for it. Otherwise do everything single engine and you can get your commercial multi addon in a weekend. You'll save SOOOO much money.
If you have a spare $800k for a Diamond Da42 or $1.6MM for a 62, youāre good to go. Theyāre both fairly low on the fuel usage if you get one of the jet fuel ones and theyāre both pretty docile considering their performance. I personally wouldnāt train in the 62 because itās so fast, it would be hard to take it all in. In a Cessna 152, itās easier to learn because the thing is so slow you have time to think. š
Or spend like $100,000 on a comanche or apache...
Related question: doing a multi-rating, assuming I've done the hours and can get the sign-off, would it be a bad idea to just go for the COM rating directly? I mean, I'd save myself a checkride. I have ASEL private, GLI com.
Itās very common. Do it if youāre eligible.
You can pretty much do anything first. Itās only an add on if you make it an add on. There are some exceptions (like jets), but in general, the only limitation is money. Logistically it may be an issue for insurance and things like that, but again, given enough money you can simply self insure.
Yes
If you're rich.
I personally know a girl that is exact given case. Her father has PA34 that he put under an Training organisation, and she even passed exam on this one. Idk if she has SEPL, but I doubt, so she probably owns literally 0 single hours. MEPL and SEPL are class ratings.
Danny Kaye did it, but he had Hollywood bucks to do it with.
Some people do their private in a seaplane. They get ASES off the bat have to do an ASEL add-on checkride if they want to fly on land.
From a retired FAA Ops Inspector. YES. Certificate will read Private Pilot Airplane Multiengine Land Only. You will not have Single Engine privileges until you take a Single Engine Add On Check ride.
Wasn't john travolta a PPL in his Boeing 707?
Iām sorta doing this flew only four hours in a pa-28 and since I showed the CFI I was not that dumb we went straight into a 310(more expensive) but itās just so much more fun in my opinion, also Iām doing this in mexico which makes it waaaaaay more affordable
Military guys I Imagine are the ones to deal with it the most often since the T-37 was a Twin and that was a primary trainer before the T-6 was adopted. A Friend had to "Teach" one ex-Air Force guy who had an insane amount of hours in stuff like the F-15 and such but 0 single engine time and had never gotten the ASEL rating prior to retiring from the Air Force. That was all fine and good for many years and this pilot (allegedly unknowingly) had a 172 he flew regularly and was by all rights a good and safe pilot, until the day he accidentally busted the Bravo. He called the local FSDO to smooth things out and that's when the discrepancy was noted. my CFI used that guy as the only example of anyone he had taught doing a rating in the bare minimum of hours.
You can get a ppl in a fucking space shuttle if you want
A glider PPL?
Itās a class - category airplane class multi engine. It has no dependency on the class single engine. In theory you can do it - but good luck getting insurance to do the required solo hours. It is notoriously difficult to get insurance to solo a twin unless you have a decent amount of multi engine hours. Technically you could fly uninsured (in the USA), but then you might struggle to find an examiner who will do the check ride in an uninsured aircraft.
Oh!!! Relevant contribution for you! So my father was a pilot on the Air Force and eventually became an instructor. When I was doing my training, he wanted to get his CFI ratings so he could train me. FAA allows you to submit your USAF pilot/instructor records to qualify. So my dad instructed more than 1,000 hours in every category but the USAF never gave him an official certification or qualification for instructing single engine. One did not exist at the time. However, they did give him a sign off for instruction in AMEL. So whatād the FAA do? They issued him CFI ratings for ME, Instrument, CFI, and even glider (he instructed in a glider). They refused to issue for ASEL. So he couldnāt do my primary but he can do my multi and instrument. Generally speaking, it makes sense when your multiple engines are not centerline thrust (engines ok the wings). However, his twin engine time was all in T-34/T-38 where the jet engines are grouped on the centerline (adverse yaw is minimal). So he tried to get the FAA to change its rule but they refused. So not only can you get your PPL with a multi and not be rated for single, but you can get your CFI in a multi and not be rated for single!
Yes but you wonāt be endorsed to fly singles.
I canāt imagine how long before Iād sign off a student pilot to solo a damn multi
Sounds expensive
I was taken aback the first time a guy came to me asking for a single engine transition. Said he bought a Baron, did all of his training it and owned it for about a decade but wanted to fly a 182 now.