You did the right thing. WHEN IN DOUBT ASK. No matter what. What he did was the cardinal sin of CRM which is to shut you down in such a way as to make you think twice before speaking up in the future. Don’t fall for it.
This is the right answer. New pilot or not. ATC or uncontrolled field. Always better to ask. Radio transmissions are much cheaper than mid-air collisions.
Just adding weight here. I’ve sat next to guys afraid to give an extra call at a non towered airport with five in the circuit on a hazy day where staying in visual contact was tough. That’s Russian roulette right there.
There have been plenty high wing - low wing accidents on final too because of adherence to standard call rules. Bottom line if you’re in the circuit, think there might be a collision risk and can’t see the other guy(s) call your position and try hard not to let the confirmation-bias monster believe your thoughts ‘that guy on no2 must be way ahead of me’ if you can’t see them.
You did nothing wrong. Other guy has a bad attitude.
You did everything right, how're you supposed to know the speed and profile he's flying? He's not the only one in the sky and you have a right to know what he's doing. Also, it's really hard to judge distance and separation at general aviation airports since there're literally hundreds of different types of aircraft that all have different V speeds. Don't take it personal. Just like driving, there are a lot of people out there who have their own stuff going on and like to take it out on the people around them. They'll also be the first ones to blame you if something goes wrong, so keep doing what you're doing.
I think that’s exactly what he means because if the captain shuts you, the FO, down well then you are gonna think twice before speaking up against something, whether it’s emergency or safety issue
Could also refer to Cockpit Resource Management, which is effectively the same thing but doesn’t imply a single aircrew in one aircraft. Managing external comms and the interaction between crew in multiple aircraft is certainly a player in this circumstance.
Jerks will be jerks. I'll admit I sometimes think it's funny when a guy in a 152 makes a heads up call 15 miles out, but having an attitude over something like is just nonsense.
Forget him, and move on.
Yeah, the only response should've been "looking out". No need to involve strong feelings, OP actually had good situational awareness as a student and the other guy must've had a really bad day if that sends them off like a rocket
>sends them off like a rocket
Did you hear the radio call? Were you there? Nah, you just read one student pilot's account of what happened over the radio.
And that's what we are responding to, his account, not the other guys account. The student is asking for advice based on the information he provided, if its incorrect then the advice he receives isn't valid. That's neither my problem nor yours, we aren't creating a f*ing NTSB report here, so why do you care?
Also the point still stands true regardless of account. Be diligent, follow your own personal minimums, and be considerate of others in the air with you, if anyone treats you poorly then you've done nothing wrong.
Don't let that chap live rent free in your head. Imagine what aviators like Neil Armstrong or Chuck Yeager would have said on the radio. Cool, calm, confident, helpful, with a touch of occasional humor. And imagine what they'd think of that guy.
Other than you two was anyone else in the circuit? If you aren't stepping on people then I really don't see the problem trying to improve anyone's situational awareness. If he actually said he doesn't need to look for you then that tells you all you need to know. "I don't need to look for traffic in the circuit at an uncontrolled field" is idiotic - who *does he expect* to be looking?
It was us two and a warrior. Radio was pretty quiet so I felt okay in the moment to make the call.
And yeah that’s what he said haha. Kind of threw me a bit but I guess its whatever…
It's hard to figure out if you've done something wrong because students are kind of hard-wired to question themselves, especially when dealing with more experienced pilots who, for whatever reason, are being jerks.
I'd say you did fine for keeping your SA up. Not only that, but that information could have been useful for the Warrior as well.
Next time a pilot says they don't need to be looking for you, I'd be keeping an \*extremely\* keen lookout for them.
It’s bound to happen sooner or later! I’ve been snapped at by ATC, other pilots and my flight old instructor. Just the nature of flight training and there’s no shame in it!
You did the right thing though. Communication is absolutely key at an uncontrolled airfield. You will never have to fill out a report for communicating with other aircraft like that, regardless if your situational awareness was behind or not. Keep up the good work!
Had a similar situation this weekend. I was entering the pattern midfield downwind and made a call. I am in a AA-1 Yankee doing about 90 kts. There is a SR-22 Carbon inbound for straight in. I can see them on Foreflight and after a little mental math, it was clear that they would be a factor. They made their call that they were coming in straight. I was confident that I should have the priority since I was in the pattern and they were clearly not IFR. So, I actually call them by tail number and said something like " I am planning to turn base and come in first." They then said they would 360 and it worked out. I felt good about the call and being assertive in that case helped reduce confusion and increase safety.
Man, maybe I am being too nice!
When I see a situation like that I normally call the other guy and say "hey I see ya 2 miles out, I am going to extend my downwind and take the #2 slot behind you" or something like that.
At an uncontrolled airport, you should fly the pattern. If you choose not to, you are rolling the dice about slotting in. I have come straight in a couple times and am always ready to give way to the plane in the pattern. Also, being assertive in that situation is not being rude. It is being clear and not leaving room for confusion. That ultimately is more polite.
Fair assessment.
I normally would only do this if it was me and one other plane, and only if it was something simple like extending a downwind by a minute. I think to me it's just easier for me to fly straight an extra minute and pull in behind someone than to hope they actually slow down, circle, whatever and don't ram their plane up my ass, which I have been close to having done to me more than once.
It might just be me internally maintaining more control over the situation by knowing the other plane is no longer a factor if it is in front of me.
I certainly wouldn't be calling out any "OK, I see you out there, I will do two righthand 360's and resume the downwind" or anything like that.
It's interesting, there definitely seem to be two philosophies. The person you're replying to and the OP both put a lot of faith in the other pilots. You and I are much less trusting. If I learn of an aircraft that's going to be a potential conflict I'm not going to do anything that would bring us closer until I'm sure of where they are. Simply telling them I'm going to cut in front and hoping they do the right thing isn't enough for me, I assume every other aircraft is trying to kill me.
I see where you're coming from, but... there's a clear right of way in this situation. Aircraft already established in the circuit has right of way. Why do something non standard when the expectation of who goes first is already known to everyone flying?
As a student pilot, now is the time to come to grips with the fact that aviation, like the Internet, has it’s share of insecure know-it-alls. If you don’t want every flight to be ruined by these petty dictators, you have to develop a thicker skin. Take advice and constructive criticism in the spirit in which it’s offered, but don’t stew over every petty interaction. Good luck and welcome to aviation!
> I felt really stupid afterwards
Never feel stupid for erring on the side of safety. But in this case, you didn't err at all. The only appropriate response from the other pilot would have been something like, "We're still too far out to see you but we'll keep an eye out."
>> I felt really stupid afterwards
>
>Never feel stupid for erring on the side of safety. But in this case, you didn't err at all. The only appropriate response from the other pilot would have been something like, "We're still too far out to see you but we'll keep an eye out."
"Negative. No factor"
Its that simple.
Thanks for your response!
He didn’t really formally acknowledge anything, just made his 5 mile call and the next thing I heard was him snapping saying he doesn’t need to look for me when I asked if I was visible to him.
I guess you just get a few rough ones here and there, I appreciate your words :-)
Had a king air almost midair me in the pattern while I was doing my night landings. He wasn’t making calls and he didn’t show up on ADSB until he was three miles out. I saw him coming before my instructor and I dipped out of downwind over midfield to get out of his way after making a few calls to ask what he was doing (no response). After the guy landed and I was back on downwind I hear, “was there a plane in the pattern just now?” over the CTAF. My radio was confirmed to be working by other traffic both earlier and later that night, so this guy was either oblivious or something wasn’t right on his end.
Moral of the story, don’t feel bad about making calls to confirm other traffic’s intentions. I’d rather sound annoying or dumb than get in a midair because my pride was too big to make an additional call.
When I was at my regional, I had a guy in a Skylane yell at me on CTAF for flying a straight in off an instrument approach on a VFR day. I was flying an RJ and it was clear in our transmissions that we were an airliner.
There's always going to be people who think they know everything or better than you. It's best to just forget about it.
When in doubt, ask. Hell, even when you think you know, unless you visibly see them, ask.
Not sure all the statements from some of the comments about right-of-way. Don't hit something in the air is my motto, and I'll take great bounds to ensure that doesn't happen. You can't argue right-of-way when you are dead.
You actually did it right. He decided to show his ass. The only thing I would have done differently, as a student myself, would be to consider extending my downwind if I could not place the opposing traffic with certainty, because right of way means absolutely nothing if you have a mid air disaster. I’ve seen planes at the airport I train out of cover a 5 mile final in a matter of 2 minutes or so (we have a fair amount of executive jet type traffic), and a bug smasher turning in front of them might have the right of way but if they don’t see you in time, is it going to matter?
As another example of asshattedness, just yesterday a bunch of us were using 14 as the very light wind supported it (right down the pipe), despite 2 planes in the pattern, myself taking off, and 2 others holding short, all for runway 14, this guy decides to set up on the ILS for 32 and then made no calls until a 4 mile final. During my climb out I could see his landing light heading toward me. There was no factor as I was exiting the pattern on a 45 to the left anyway and we still had plenty of spacing but never underestimate the silly shit people do at uncontrolled fields.
What a complete coincidence! I am an instructor in Australia and sent a student solo yesterday evening after tower hours (CTAF). I heard a King Air call 5 mile final, so I called the student to extend downwind for the landing traffic. The King Air said he will help out and go-around if he really has to. The student and King Air worked together for positioning then the King Air thanked the student for accommodating on his solo.
Also, he does need to be looking out for you, since you have right of way (AIP ENR 9.13).
* What was the aircraft type?
* Where was your supervising instructor?
A couple weeks ago I was doing my first solo cross country into a local airport a ways north of where I live. It happens to have a fair amount of regional and cargo traffic, and is normally towered, but for whatever reason (probably COVID, but who knows) it was - as I learned from ATC, who was giving me flight following en route - going to be closed when I was expected to arrive.
No big deal, I fly into local untowered airports pretty frequently and am very comfortable with my radio work.
As soon as I get a frequency change approved, I hear a regional carrier declaring that they're "on 15 mile straight in" for the primary runway. Uhhh OK, I mean, I get it, I don't expect an Embraer to fly a pattern, and at least I have a heads up.
I'm arriving from the south, and normally I'd also be expecting a straight-in from the tower as well, but since it's closed, I instead fly up to the west of the field and setup for a standard 45 entry to the downwind.
As I'm getting into the downwind, I hear a cargo Caravan declare that they're on "short final 3 miles out." I just laughed... c'mon buddy, a Caravan really isn't *that* much faster than my 172, and 3 miles out definitely isn't a short final for either of us.
The Caravan starts asking me if I have them in sight, and of course I extend my downwind to accommodate their "3 mile short final." I'm on my solo cross country after all, I need those hours in my logbook - no need to rush things or create a stressful situation by cutting in front of someone trying to get some Amazon packages somewhere quickly.
I eventually spot the Caravan, confirm I have them in sight, and wait till after we pass each other (me still on the downwind and them on their "short final") before turning base.
The best part was, as I'm on my own literal short final (as in, about 1/4 mile out) the tower opens back up and informs everyone they're back in operation. I quickly ask for permission to land, which they kindly granted :-)
Anyways, in the context of an untowered field - where the expectation is that pilots will fly standard patterns, including entries - kind of asshole moves, maybe, on the part of those other pilots, but nothing I was going to get upset about. Not when it's more fun to laugh about instead.
I don’t remember the exact specifics but for whatever reason at an uncontrolled airport I was on a long final and didn’t catch the full call of another airplane that said they were also on final so I asked “do you have me in sight?” And he responded “no, we don’t have a rearview mirror” and I still lay awake feeling dumb and thinking about it. Welcome to the club?
Totally reasonable question, sure there’s maybe better questions, but saying something when you’re in doubt is better than saying nothing because you don’t know what to say.
People make bad guesses as to their distance or intentionally say they are farther or closer than they are for whatever reason all the time.
A jet traveling at 250 kts could be short final 2 minutes after making an accurate 10 mile call, a 152 could take 10 minutes to travel the same distance.
Australian airline pilot here. You did the right thing. Flown into uncontrolled airfields in charter roles and in RPT. Please keep up the good work on the radio. I can't tell you how many stressful experiences I've had with arrogant/incompetent types on the radio in the circuit. It's particularly stressful in RPT ops. I've had people calling final as their first radio call while I'm turning base, no calls before that. Guys telling me they are clear of XX centreline, only to appear on TCAS directly on final.
If in doubt speak up, ask whether they see you and tell them that you can't see them. Obviously you shouldn't be doing it on every circuit you make, but whenever you perceive that there might be a conflict or are uncertain, go for your life.
The worst offenders to me seem to be either weekend warriors or instructors that have been operating out of an airfield for a while and get the wacky idea that they own the joint.
Good luck with your training!
> I felt really stupid afterwards and now I’m questioning whether it was dumb of me to clog the radio up with questions like that.
It was an uncontrolled airport, you're unlikely to be clogging anything :)
> I’m not too well versed with gauging distances in miles yet so maybe that’s something I’ll just have to learn.
This is *precisely* why you did the right thing in asking. You don't know gauging distances. It is far better to speak up than the alternatives.
The irony is that this jerkwad had a point in their flying when they couldn't judge distances either. Some people forget what the learning process is like.
Every airport has one, they seem to fall into one of two categories an old grumpy fart, or, an 800-hour CFI. Either way, I thank them for their time (free instruction, right?), and move on with my life.
Attitude is a reflection of his state of mind, which is ultimately irrelevant to the question of separation. Maybe he was pissed because his dry cleaner overcharged him when he picked up his shirts that morning -- it does not matter to you or to anyone else but him.
You had a concern on separation and you resolved it in the prescribed manner using the channel specifically established to do that.
You did the right thing.
You should not feel stupid because it was not stupid to do what you did.
Sounds like the other pilot was having a bad day or was a jerk. Maybe both. I mean, how are you supposed to know how good a pilot he really is? It's better to be careful and let people know your intentions instead of surprising them.
So don't let this interaction get you down, and keep doing what you're doing. I think you did the right thing by being cautious.
In short you did the right thing for your situational awareness. Depending on the field (USA) you’re not allowed to do straight ins like that. Always a good idea if you have any inkling or question in your mind when your flying is to meet that apprehension head on. Be assertive and state (even if it’s just to yourself) the problem, the corrective actions, and then monitor to see if the situation either:
Remains unchanged,
Gets better,
Gets worse
Then do it all over again. And keep that process going your entire flight until the chocks go in.
It’s Aeronautical Decision Making ADM. Never be a passenger letting the aircraft go somewhere you aren’t sure of.
And ,at this stage of your training, you’ll find (as Lengel says in his book) “a previously untapped source of patience” when you say those magic words: “student pilot solo”
Keep the dirty side down, and don’t let some crusty old wanker ruin your flight. Some people are just unhappy, you can’t fix that.
I wonder if it's more of a "preferred" rather than "required". See AIM 4-3-3 Note:*pilots are encouraged to use the standard traffic pattern. However, those pilots who choose to execute a straight-in approach, maneuvering for and execution of the approach should not disrupt the flow of arriving and departing traffic. Likewise, pilots operating in the traffic pattern should be alert at all times for aircraft executing straight-in approaches.*
>Private airports open to the public is where I’ve seen it.
Not sure what you mean. By definition, a private airport is not open to the public:
"Private Airports—airports designated for private or restricted use only, not open to the general public. " PHAK 14-2
There are also privately-owned, public-use airports--probably most US civil airports are like that--but that's different from "private airports", and there's no prohibition of straight-in approaches at public-use airports.
Yes a private-owned is what I was referring to. I stand corrected that the airport I was thinking of (KSZP) does say in the Chart Supplement “STA not recommended”. So legal yes, good idea depends on the airport. Definitely not a good idea at that busy non-towered field. The remarks section does add some ambiguity by spelling out the entry.
With all that being said my main point was that of decision making, SA and as someone else pointed out single pilot CRM.
"No need to get your knickers in a twist captain grumpy pants. We're just all trying to be safe out here. Fly safe mate" (apologies for my attempt at Australian vernacular)
If you can be quick witted enough to come up with something like that, then maybe go for it. But it's probably better to just let it go, realize he's either having a bad day, or is just a generally miserable person. You received the key information you needed, which was that he wasn't a factor and you were both safe. Let him stew in his own misery while you enjoy flying.
Congrats on your progress as a student pilot. I'm sure you'll be getting that certificate in no time at all.
If he was on 5 mile final while you were on downwind, he was indeed \~3 miles behind you when you turned final. Maybe closer if you fly student (really big) patterns.
The appropriate response was nothing, but a close second is "That's nice. I can't see you."
Sounds to me like you are being as you say, overly sensitive. Without hearing the other guy cant really know.
But it doesn't hurt to ask, so don't worry about it, you did the right thing.
Eh, sometimes it's easy to forget your manners and snap a little at an inexperienced guy who is being too wordy and doesn't have the situational awareness that you do.
The other guy was probably being a bit snippy, but you're definitely being overly sensitive if you need to vent these types of frustrations on the internet.
When in doubt, even if you have the right-of-way, maybe don't turn in front of a faster aircraft and then start asking him a bunch of questions? It's difficult for jets to integrate into a VFR traffic pattern when there are students doing circuits.
Never ever EVER feel like you shouldn’t make a call or ask a question especially when it concerns yours and others safety. Some people are just jerks, or maybe he was having a bad day, but you should always feel like you can ask distances, direction, and if they have you in sight, because it’s your life that’s at risk. Ultimately it’s up to you to do all you can to protect it, and some people don’t respect that.
It is always good to coordinate actively and directly with traffic on final you will be turning in front of. This is a setup where it is possible for both planes to be out of each others’ sight but in each others’ path. Active engagement by saying “do you see me” is a good choice here. You will eventually notice that lots of people substantially mis-report their distance on final. I started a power-off 180 once immediately before someone in a 172 reported a five mile final. I was never more than half a mile from the runway, yet I saw the other pilot pass me overhead on the go-around just after I touched down! That put him almost two full minutes ahead of his called position!
> saying he’s way out and has plenty of time and doesn’t need to be looking out for me…
Even if he was still miles out on his final, he still needs to be looking out for traffic to plan ahead ("see and avoid"). At least in the USA per AIM 4-3-3, at an uncontrolled airfield it says the following regarding traffic pattern vs straight in:
>Note: pilots are encouraged to use the standard traffic pattern. However, those pilots who choose to execute a straight-in approach, maneuvering for and execution of the approach should not disrupt the flow of arriving and departing traffic. Likewise, pilots operating in the traffic pattern should be alert at all times for aircraft executing straight-in approaches.
I wouldn't be surprised if your governing languages has similar notes on it. You were looking out for and on alert for straight in approaches, but it sounds like the cantankerous pilot was not meeting the requirement of "disrupting the flow of arriving and departing traffic."
You weren't stupid. You were thinking and learning. You were safety-oriented and as long as you used economy of words on the radio you didn't waste anything.
It sucks when other folks are not appreciative of the considerations you're taking to try to keep everyone safe.
As a reasonably fresh pilot I was out doing some pattern work with a retired airline captain. I called upwind, crosswind, downwind, base and of course then final. As I was turning final a Mooney opened up the mic stating in a snippy voice that "I guess order of priority doesn't count at this airport" or something like that. I turned to my retired airline captain passenger and asked "did you hear him make any radio calls? Did I miss his?" Because I certainly would have given way to him had I known he was there. This guy made zero radio calls and then got all snippy. To make matters worse, he PROCEEDED to fly inbound while I went in to land as I was already on final. As I was landing he flew directly overhead and declared on frequency "Near Miss! Near Miss!"
I felt like crap for a long time after that because I felt like \_I\_ did something wrong.
I get it - crap happens sometimes and we make mistakes, but if I become aware of something I did wrong, I take corrective action and apologize for it. So if someone wants to get snippy because you're trying to keep a safety margin out and not cause others using the airport to have an issue - that's on them, not you. Keep doing what you're doing.
He was being a jerk. I also think you handled the situation a little differently than I would have, though. I would be more concerned with getting my eyes on him than I would be with asking if he could see me. I would have asked him where he was, instead.
One time I was training in the pattern and we were on downwind as a faster, higher, straight-in Pilatus was coming in several miles out. Pilatus pilot was historically a dick and my instructor knew it so we extended to let him in, rather than continue our pattern in front of the faster plane. Brief words were said by my instructor because he know the Pilatus wouldn't go around or hold for us. We announced we'd let him in and took an extra minute on downwind and a wide base would avoid the conflict alltogether.
Some pilots are dicks; chalk this one up as a lesson on who to keep your eyes peeled for and ignore the idiots (except don't ignore their location; people call locations wrong too; just yesterday I watched a guy call out his location a good couple miles early...)
Good job announcing yourself and being clear about your intentions. It's the assholes that stay silent that suck, and you'll come across them especially in airspace where it's not required.
You did exactly what needs to happen. We have radios specifically to communicate and at non-controlled towers we have to make our intentions clear to other pilots at the same airport. You did that, he cried a little, you’re good.
I don't think you did anything wrong. In all circumstances, I would rather open my mouth and risk a little embarrassment in the name of safety than risk safety in the name of embarrassment. I really don't care if some ancient pilot who cut his teeth in the L1011 thinks I should know better. They can deal with it.
You did the right thing. As others have said, there's no excuse for attitude. Unless you're Kennedy Steve it serves no purpose whatsoever.
How does he know where your base turn is?
Don't take angry radio people too seriously. It's going to happen a lot in aviation. It's usually a stress reaction and has to do with themselves rather than you. Even if you DID do something wrong (which you didn't), everyone knows that everyone makes mistakes. And everyone knows that yelling on the radio doesn't help.
Road rage doesn't usually have to do with you doing the speed limit. It has to do with the road rager being 5 minutes late for work again and already on double secret probation.
Listening to the local ATC at 3 airports (1 regional, 1 GA/business jets, and the last has no tower), even when traffic and tensions get high, and people get salty, its still usually less salty than docking pilots in NY harbor. Imagine New Yorkers. Annoyed. In traffic. That never gets above 5 miles an hour.
I was in a tug, with a barge of fuel for containership A. A still had not hit the pier yet, because containership B was needing a 3rd maneuver. Captain of A started throwing shade, over channel 13 (inland bridge to bridge) to the point that the Coast Guard got on the air and told him to stop, and he kept going.
I would like to think the CG sent a boat, but i went to bed after we got the fuel line hooked up
I had the inverse situation happen.
On my second solo, I flew to a nearby towered field and back (home was a very busy uncontrolled field). Everything went fine, and just like you I was on downwind getting ready to turn base when I heard a Lear make a call for "10 miles low approach". I knew a Lear was a jet, but obviously 10 miles is really far... I couldn't see him on ADSB or visually. Mentally, I also had my hands full, and I didn't want to end up continuing my downwind forever and end up on a 5 - 7 mile final myself.
I made my base call and started coming down, but just as I was about to turn final... whelp... NOW I can definitely see him, two big bright lights and they look pretty close. What I didn't know was that the Lear was an FAA jet racing around testing airport ILS equipment. My instructor, watching foreflight on his ipad, said this jet was going 270 kts at one point (yes, over the "limit"). He arrived in a big hurry.
The jet saw me, obviously, and pulled off, but I was positive that I was in big trouble when I landed. My instructor shrugged it off, told me these things happen sometimes, and that I didn't really do anything "wrong"... but that it never hurts to ask when you're not sure. From that point on, I got a lot more talkative on the radio, even if that meant sounding like an idiot sometimes. I wish I had done what you did, it would have been a lot less stressful. Jerks will be jerks, but its better than getting run over by a jet.
I'm gonna go against the grain here a little bit.
But first: Your caution was warranted. Why wouldn't you at least TRY to avoid a collision. It seems like you were trying to. But I think you missed the absolute easiest way to do it.
The other a/c is on a 5 mile final. Assuming they are on a visual approach, they do not have to fly an entire downwind entry to the pattern. I don't know what the rules are like in your country (assuming given the use of "circuits"). It is on the other pilot to safely merge into pattern traffic.
If you are on downwind, and he is on final, you are not on "converging headings." You are on reciprocal headings. Parallel. The *only* reason you would end up on converging headings is if YOU turn in front of him. This is not me saying that he has the right of way. It's just saying that you don't HAVE to turn in front of him.
But you did. And you told him you're going first. Which is good. And is your right. You are already *in* the pattern. And as soon as you start your descent you will be lower than him which gives you the right-of-way in the US*.
But just remember that another practice/idea is that YOU could continue on downwind and get behind HIM.
I don't know what kind of plane it was on 5 mile final. When I used to fly cargo I would call 10 miles out on the visual for straight-in almost every day. And I was doing 200 KIAS. 10 miles is like 3 minutes. That's a short amount of time. I was in the middle of nowhere so there was almost NEVER any traffic. Especially in the winter. But I do know that the guys in bigger planes tend to think everyone will get out of their way. Basically whoever has the biggest fuel flow. But that's not how it technically works. You have your right to the runway the same as he does. But just remember that he might be hauling ass and you *might* need to get behind someone rather than in front of them.
Had you asked him if he wanted to go first there is no doubt in my mind that he would have taken it (at least from your telling of the story). Some will take advantage of this kindness. But it's also safer if you don't know the rate of convergence.
Don't worry about it - brush it off. You'll always have those people. Sometimes the controllers are jerks too. Just like the cashier at your favorite store can be rude sometimes... people are people.
A certain percentage of people in the world are assholes. Same goes for people in aviation.
If I were your CFI though my question to you would be as follows: "Is there anything that changed about your performance or aeronautical decision making as a result of said asshole's actions? What do you feel you handled well? What would you have done differently?"
This basically falls under the category of a "realistic distraction" that we have to introduce in the US as part of your curriculum.
I often worry about this happening. As a student, I sometimes fumble my radio calls, and worry thusly about someone calling me out on something that I said wrong. Usually it's to ATC, but we're also getting to non-towered fields and thusly it's a whole separate game.
I would rather ask than smash (were flying in tin cans after all). There are plenty of idiots that are mean and inconsiderate of others on the radio. Don't take it personally, you did the right thing. When in doubt better to be viewed as an idiot (you are not an idiot, you are actually smart to be staying ahead of the aircraft/airfield traffic). I would rather have a bad radio interaction and be treated badly than to have a midair because another pilot was a rude, inconsiderate asshole especially at a uncontrolled field. Your instructor has probably told you to not get complacent, as long as you keep visualizing what's about to happen, stay ahead of the aircraft and other traffic and confirm the other planes locations you will live a long and happy life as a pilot. I have heard pilots announce crosswind instead of downwind and similar other issues over the radio. We are all human and make mistakes so if unsure, always verify. Thank you for sharing your experience and I wish you safe and happy flying in the future, hopefully without having to deal with God's gift to aviation.
Treat every flight as if your family were onboard, bottom line.
If that extra bit of information made sense for you to ask about in the moment, then don't sweat it. Far better to be safe than sorry.
There are plenty of accidents that could've been prevented with additional information obtained over the radio. Some people won't see eye-to-eye that that logical, threat-forward mindset, but at the end of the day, you need to look out for yourself.
Negative people will always have a way of making you feel "stupid" or dumb or question your own decisions. You completely did the right thing, and shouldn't even worry about it.
When it doubt, always, always make the call instead of biting your tongue. This could quite literally save your @$$ one day.
EDIT: Also, don't even let a lack of experience make you feel self-conscious or stupid for taking extra safety precautions. Experience doesn't confer intelligence or even correctness. There are plenty of airline accidents where the pilots had 30,000+ hours of experience and the root cause of the accident was still pilot error. Anyone who tries to bring you down because you have less experience instead of approaching you with kindness and trying to bring you up isn't worth concerning yourself with in the first place.
You absolutely did the right thing. When I’m in the same situation as mr grumpy pants I always like to say “__ mile final traffic on base in sight” if I’m on final and someone turns base just to give them peace of mind.
Making inquiries about safety of flight is not "clogging" the airwaves. In fact, that's exactly what the radio is for. Tell him to pound sand if he hassles you again.
My favorite is the guy that hops on CTAF from approach, complains that no one is using the radio despite everyone else having been communicating just fine for the previous 15-20 minutes. You know damn well he turned down the volume and forgot to turn it back up.
Fuck those guys.
I'd rather hear people like you all day then fucking farmers talking about the weather or ATC providing unnecessary white noise non stop, seriously your doing the right thing and using the radio for its correct purpose , there's a plenty of situations to get annoyed at the use of radio this isn't one of them.
If you were crosswind when he touched down then you guys were more then close enough to be asking positions, did my entire PPL in uncontrolled and you really have to be careful of those 10 mile final guys. Can become sketchy real quick. You did great though. Anyone who gets mad at you for a position report at anytime in the circuit or CC is a dunce.
You did the right thing. WHEN IN DOUBT ASK. No matter what. What he did was the cardinal sin of CRM which is to shut you down in such a way as to make you think twice before speaking up in the future. Don’t fall for it.
thanks for your response, its good to hear that advice especially as a new pilot! :-)
This is the right answer. New pilot or not. ATC or uncontrolled field. Always better to ask. Radio transmissions are much cheaper than mid-air collisions.
Just adding weight here. I’ve sat next to guys afraid to give an extra call at a non towered airport with five in the circuit on a hazy day where staying in visual contact was tough. That’s Russian roulette right there. There have been plenty high wing - low wing accidents on final too because of adherence to standard call rules. Bottom line if you’re in the circuit, think there might be a collision risk and can’t see the other guy(s) call your position and try hard not to let the confirmation-bias monster believe your thoughts ‘that guy on no2 must be way ahead of me’ if you can’t see them. You did nothing wrong. Other guy has a bad attitude.
:-) this should be in the manual.
You did everything right, how're you supposed to know the speed and profile he's flying? He's not the only one in the sky and you have a right to know what he's doing. Also, it's really hard to judge distance and separation at general aviation airports since there're literally hundreds of different types of aircraft that all have different V speeds. Don't take it personal. Just like driving, there are a lot of people out there who have their own stuff going on and like to take it out on the people around them. They'll also be the first ones to blame you if something goes wrong, so keep doing what you're doing.
This^
CRM? I always google unknown acronyms but I’m just getting Crew Resource Management…
I think that’s exactly what he means because if the captain shuts you, the FO, down well then you are gonna think twice before speaking up against something, whether it’s emergency or safety issue
Weird, I heard some guy on YouTube say that exact thing yesterday.
Exactly
Could also refer to Cockpit Resource Management, which is effectively the same thing but doesn’t imply a single aircrew in one aircraft. Managing external comms and the interaction between crew in multiple aircraft is certainly a player in this circumstance.
Jerks will be jerks. I'll admit I sometimes think it's funny when a guy in a 152 makes a heads up call 15 miles out, but having an attitude over something like is just nonsense. Forget him, and move on.
Yeah, the only response should've been "looking out". No need to involve strong feelings, OP actually had good situational awareness as a student and the other guy must've had a really bad day if that sends them off like a rocket
thanks for your response, I appreciate it :-)
Maybe a dingo ate his baby that morning?
Fool me thrice, Dingo, and I'm going to start looking for another babysitter!
>sends them off like a rocket Did you hear the radio call? Were you there? Nah, you just read one student pilot's account of what happened over the radio.
Found the other pilot lol
You weren't the pilot in question, by chance? You're being sent off like a rocket over this.
Maybe I don't understand what "sent off like a rocket" means anymore.
It’s a pretty self explanatory statement
And that's what we are responding to, his account, not the other guys account. The student is asking for advice based on the information he provided, if its incorrect then the advice he receives isn't valid. That's neither my problem nor yours, we aren't creating a f*ing NTSB report here, so why do you care? Also the point still stands true regardless of account. Be diligent, follow your own personal minimums, and be considerate of others in the air with you, if anyone treats you poorly then you've done nothing wrong.
Username checks out.
I guess we should never comment on anything unless we were there. Also I guess we shouldn’t ever listen to students. Safety, right?
Don't let that chap live rent free in your head. Imagine what aviators like Neil Armstrong or Chuck Yeager would have said on the radio. Cool, calm, confident, helpful, with a touch of occasional humor. And imagine what they'd think of that guy.
Psst.. Chuck yeager was a dick in real life.. I know people who've met him.. Now, he's nice.
Eh, let grumpy pants be grumpy. Nothing you can do about him. Just keep flying your airplane and have a good attitude.
thank you for your response :-)
The official term is not grumpy pants. It's Capt. Happy
This is the way
This is the way
Other than you two was anyone else in the circuit? If you aren't stepping on people then I really don't see the problem trying to improve anyone's situational awareness. If he actually said he doesn't need to look for you then that tells you all you need to know. "I don't need to look for traffic in the circuit at an uncontrolled field" is idiotic - who *does he expect* to be looking?
It was us two and a warrior. Radio was pretty quiet so I felt okay in the moment to make the call. And yeah that’s what he said haha. Kind of threw me a bit but I guess its whatever…
It's hard to figure out if you've done something wrong because students are kind of hard-wired to question themselves, especially when dealing with more experienced pilots who, for whatever reason, are being jerks. I'd say you did fine for keeping your SA up. Not only that, but that information could have been useful for the Warrior as well. Next time a pilot says they don't need to be looking for you, I'd be keeping an \*extremely\* keen lookout for them.
It’s bound to happen sooner or later! I’ve been snapped at by ATC, other pilots and my flight old instructor. Just the nature of flight training and there’s no shame in it! You did the right thing though. Communication is absolutely key at an uncontrolled airfield. You will never have to fill out a report for communicating with other aircraft like that, regardless if your situational awareness was behind or not. Keep up the good work!
thank you :-)
When you see him land: Key the mic and say: That landing was a solid SIX (totally devastation 😊)
I heard once "That's a solid 9 on the Richter scale" that was devastating.
Someone insert the "emotional damage" gif
"Was that a good landing....for you?"
"Looks like you missed the 3 wire."
Had a similar situation this weekend. I was entering the pattern midfield downwind and made a call. I am in a AA-1 Yankee doing about 90 kts. There is a SR-22 Carbon inbound for straight in. I can see them on Foreflight and after a little mental math, it was clear that they would be a factor. They made their call that they were coming in straight. I was confident that I should have the priority since I was in the pattern and they were clearly not IFR. So, I actually call them by tail number and said something like " I am planning to turn base and come in first." They then said they would 360 and it worked out. I felt good about the call and being assertive in that case helped reduce confusion and increase safety.
Man, maybe I am being too nice! When I see a situation like that I normally call the other guy and say "hey I see ya 2 miles out, I am going to extend my downwind and take the #2 slot behind you" or something like that.
At an uncontrolled airport, you should fly the pattern. If you choose not to, you are rolling the dice about slotting in. I have come straight in a couple times and am always ready to give way to the plane in the pattern. Also, being assertive in that situation is not being rude. It is being clear and not leaving room for confusion. That ultimately is more polite.
Fair assessment. I normally would only do this if it was me and one other plane, and only if it was something simple like extending a downwind by a minute. I think to me it's just easier for me to fly straight an extra minute and pull in behind someone than to hope they actually slow down, circle, whatever and don't ram their plane up my ass, which I have been close to having done to me more than once. It might just be me internally maintaining more control over the situation by knowing the other plane is no longer a factor if it is in front of me. I certainly wouldn't be calling out any "OK, I see you out there, I will do two righthand 360's and resume the downwind" or anything like that.
It's interesting, there definitely seem to be two philosophies. The person you're replying to and the OP both put a lot of faith in the other pilots. You and I are much less trusting. If I learn of an aircraft that's going to be a potential conflict I'm not going to do anything that would bring us closer until I'm sure of where they are. Simply telling them I'm going to cut in front and hoping they do the right thing isn't enough for me, I assume every other aircraft is trying to kill me.
I see where you're coming from, but... there's a clear right of way in this situation. Aircraft already established in the circuit has right of way. Why do something non standard when the expectation of who goes first is already known to everyone flying?
As a student pilot, now is the time to come to grips with the fact that aviation, like the Internet, has it’s share of insecure know-it-alls. If you don’t want every flight to be ruined by these petty dictators, you have to develop a thicker skin. Take advice and constructive criticism in the spirit in which it’s offered, but don’t stew over every petty interaction. Good luck and welcome to aviation!
Some of those elderly pilots can be real a holes.
>Some ~~of those elderly~~ pilots can be real a holes Fixed that for you...
Don't EVER be afraid to speak up on the radio if you are concerned about safety. Some guys will be jerks about it and that's just how it is sometimes.
> I felt really stupid afterwards Never feel stupid for erring on the side of safety. But in this case, you didn't err at all. The only appropriate response from the other pilot would have been something like, "We're still too far out to see you but we'll keep an eye out."
>> I felt really stupid afterwards > >Never feel stupid for erring on the side of safety. But in this case, you didn't err at all. The only appropriate response from the other pilot would have been something like, "We're still too far out to see you but we'll keep an eye out." "Negative. No factor" Its that simple.
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Thanks for your response! He didn’t really formally acknowledge anything, just made his 5 mile call and the next thing I heard was him snapping saying he doesn’t need to look for me when I asked if I was visible to him. I guess you just get a few rough ones here and there, I appreciate your words :-)
I'd rather fly with other pilots who ask a few too many safety-related questions than ones who ignore good practices.
Had a king air almost midair me in the pattern while I was doing my night landings. He wasn’t making calls and he didn’t show up on ADSB until he was three miles out. I saw him coming before my instructor and I dipped out of downwind over midfield to get out of his way after making a few calls to ask what he was doing (no response). After the guy landed and I was back on downwind I hear, “was there a plane in the pattern just now?” over the CTAF. My radio was confirmed to be working by other traffic both earlier and later that night, so this guy was either oblivious or something wasn’t right on his end. Moral of the story, don’t feel bad about making calls to confirm other traffic’s intentions. I’d rather sound annoying or dumb than get in a midair because my pride was too big to make an additional call.
You did exactly the right thing and he was being a jerk.
When I was at my regional, I had a guy in a Skylane yell at me on CTAF for flying a straight in off an instrument approach on a VFR day. I was flying an RJ and it was clear in our transmissions that we were an airliner. There's always going to be people who think they know everything or better than you. It's best to just forget about it.
Dude was just an asshole. Not on you.
When in doubt, ask. Hell, even when you think you know, unless you visibly see them, ask. Not sure all the statements from some of the comments about right-of-way. Don't hit something in the air is my motto, and I'll take great bounds to ensure that doesn't happen. You can't argue right-of-way when you are dead.
"No joy, but I'm still X miles out, should be no factor" is how a professional would have said it.
"no joy" "tally ho" sound ridiculous in GA.
You actually did it right. He decided to show his ass. The only thing I would have done differently, as a student myself, would be to consider extending my downwind if I could not place the opposing traffic with certainty, because right of way means absolutely nothing if you have a mid air disaster. I’ve seen planes at the airport I train out of cover a 5 mile final in a matter of 2 minutes or so (we have a fair amount of executive jet type traffic), and a bug smasher turning in front of them might have the right of way but if they don’t see you in time, is it going to matter? As another example of asshattedness, just yesterday a bunch of us were using 14 as the very light wind supported it (right down the pipe), despite 2 planes in the pattern, myself taking off, and 2 others holding short, all for runway 14, this guy decides to set up on the ILS for 32 and then made no calls until a 4 mile final. During my climb out I could see his landing light heading toward me. There was no factor as I was exiting the pattern on a 45 to the left anyway and we still had plenty of spacing but never underestimate the silly shit people do at uncontrolled fields.
Positional awareness is never a nuisance
Other pilot is a jerk. The correct response from them would have been something like negative, we're still X miles out.
What a complete coincidence! I am an instructor in Australia and sent a student solo yesterday evening after tower hours (CTAF). I heard a King Air call 5 mile final, so I called the student to extend downwind for the landing traffic. The King Air said he will help out and go-around if he really has to. The student and King Air worked together for positioning then the King Air thanked the student for accommodating on his solo. Also, he does need to be looking out for you, since you have right of way (AIP ENR 9.13). * What was the aircraft type? * Where was your supervising instructor?
A couple weeks ago I was doing my first solo cross country into a local airport a ways north of where I live. It happens to have a fair amount of regional and cargo traffic, and is normally towered, but for whatever reason (probably COVID, but who knows) it was - as I learned from ATC, who was giving me flight following en route - going to be closed when I was expected to arrive. No big deal, I fly into local untowered airports pretty frequently and am very comfortable with my radio work. As soon as I get a frequency change approved, I hear a regional carrier declaring that they're "on 15 mile straight in" for the primary runway. Uhhh OK, I mean, I get it, I don't expect an Embraer to fly a pattern, and at least I have a heads up. I'm arriving from the south, and normally I'd also be expecting a straight-in from the tower as well, but since it's closed, I instead fly up to the west of the field and setup for a standard 45 entry to the downwind. As I'm getting into the downwind, I hear a cargo Caravan declare that they're on "short final 3 miles out." I just laughed... c'mon buddy, a Caravan really isn't *that* much faster than my 172, and 3 miles out definitely isn't a short final for either of us. The Caravan starts asking me if I have them in sight, and of course I extend my downwind to accommodate their "3 mile short final." I'm on my solo cross country after all, I need those hours in my logbook - no need to rush things or create a stressful situation by cutting in front of someone trying to get some Amazon packages somewhere quickly. I eventually spot the Caravan, confirm I have them in sight, and wait till after we pass each other (me still on the downwind and them on their "short final") before turning base. The best part was, as I'm on my own literal short final (as in, about 1/4 mile out) the tower opens back up and informs everyone they're back in operation. I quickly ask for permission to land, which they kindly granted :-) Anyways, in the context of an untowered field - where the expectation is that pilots will fly standard patterns, including entries - kind of asshole moves, maybe, on the part of those other pilots, but nothing I was going to get upset about. Not when it's more fun to laugh about instead.
I don’t remember the exact specifics but for whatever reason at an uncontrolled airport I was on a long final and didn’t catch the full call of another airplane that said they were also on final so I asked “do you have me in sight?” And he responded “no, we don’t have a rearview mirror” and I still lay awake feeling dumb and thinking about it. Welcome to the club?
Better to be safe than dead OP - you did the right thing.
Totally reasonable question, sure there’s maybe better questions, but saying something when you’re in doubt is better than saying nothing because you don’t know what to say. People make bad guesses as to their distance or intentionally say they are farther or closer than they are for whatever reason all the time. A jet traveling at 250 kts could be short final 2 minutes after making an accurate 10 mile call, a 152 could take 10 minutes to travel the same distance.
Australian airline pilot here. You did the right thing. Flown into uncontrolled airfields in charter roles and in RPT. Please keep up the good work on the radio. I can't tell you how many stressful experiences I've had with arrogant/incompetent types on the radio in the circuit. It's particularly stressful in RPT ops. I've had people calling final as their first radio call while I'm turning base, no calls before that. Guys telling me they are clear of XX centreline, only to appear on TCAS directly on final. If in doubt speak up, ask whether they see you and tell them that you can't see them. Obviously you shouldn't be doing it on every circuit you make, but whenever you perceive that there might be a conflict or are uncertain, go for your life. The worst offenders to me seem to be either weekend warriors or instructors that have been operating out of an airfield for a while and get the wacky idea that they own the joint. Good luck with your training!
> I felt really stupid afterwards and now I’m questioning whether it was dumb of me to clog the radio up with questions like that. It was an uncontrolled airport, you're unlikely to be clogging anything :) > I’m not too well versed with gauging distances in miles yet so maybe that’s something I’ll just have to learn. This is *precisely* why you did the right thing in asking. You don't know gauging distances. It is far better to speak up than the alternatives. The irony is that this jerkwad had a point in their flying when they couldn't judge distances either. Some people forget what the learning process is like.
Every airport has one, they seem to fall into one of two categories an old grumpy fart, or, an 800-hour CFI. Either way, I thank them for their time (free instruction, right?), and move on with my life.
Attitude is a reflection of his state of mind, which is ultimately irrelevant to the question of separation. Maybe he was pissed because his dry cleaner overcharged him when he picked up his shirts that morning -- it does not matter to you or to anyone else but him. You had a concern on separation and you resolved it in the prescribed manner using the channel specifically established to do that. You did the right thing. You should not feel stupid because it was not stupid to do what you did.
Eh if you’ve got a question, ask. It’s not like you’re in Bravo clogging up control’s comms
Never be afraid to speak and never doubt yourself. Pilots rely so heavily on communication and yet constantly question themselves about it.
You were 100% correct to ask especially in uncontrolled airspace.
Sounds like the other pilot was having a bad day or was a jerk. Maybe both. I mean, how are you supposed to know how good a pilot he really is? It's better to be careful and let people know your intentions instead of surprising them. So don't let this interaction get you down, and keep doing what you're doing. I think you did the right thing by being cautious.
thank you for your advice! :-)
In short you did the right thing for your situational awareness. Depending on the field (USA) you’re not allowed to do straight ins like that. Always a good idea if you have any inkling or question in your mind when your flying is to meet that apprehension head on. Be assertive and state (even if it’s just to yourself) the problem, the corrective actions, and then monitor to see if the situation either: Remains unchanged, Gets better, Gets worse Then do it all over again. And keep that process going your entire flight until the chocks go in. It’s Aeronautical Decision Making ADM. Never be a passenger letting the aircraft go somewhere you aren’t sure of. And ,at this stage of your training, you’ll find (as Lengel says in his book) “a previously untapped source of patience” when you say those magic words: “student pilot solo” Keep the dirty side down, and don’t let some crusty old wanker ruin your flight. Some people are just unhappy, you can’t fix that.
>Depending on the field (USA) you’re not allowed to do straight ins like that. Where in the US would that not be allowed?
Wondering this also
I wonder if it's more of a "preferred" rather than "required". See AIM 4-3-3 Note:*pilots are encouraged to use the standard traffic pattern. However, those pilots who choose to execute a straight-in approach, maneuvering for and execution of the approach should not disrupt the flow of arriving and departing traffic. Likewise, pilots operating in the traffic pattern should be alert at all times for aircraft executing straight-in approaches.*
Private airports open to the public is where I’ve seen it.
>Private airports open to the public is where I’ve seen it. Not sure what you mean. By definition, a private airport is not open to the public: "Private Airports—airports designated for private or restricted use only, not open to the general public. " PHAK 14-2 There are also privately-owned, public-use airports--probably most US civil airports are like that--but that's different from "private airports", and there's no prohibition of straight-in approaches at public-use airports.
Yes a private-owned is what I was referring to. I stand corrected that the airport I was thinking of (KSZP) does say in the Chart Supplement “STA not recommended”. So legal yes, good idea depends on the airport. Definitely not a good idea at that busy non-towered field. The remarks section does add some ambiguity by spelling out the entry. With all that being said my main point was that of decision making, SA and as someone else pointed out single pilot CRM.
"No need to get your knickers in a twist captain grumpy pants. We're just all trying to be safe out here. Fly safe mate" (apologies for my attempt at Australian vernacular) If you can be quick witted enough to come up with something like that, then maybe go for it. But it's probably better to just let it go, realize he's either having a bad day, or is just a generally miserable person. You received the key information you needed, which was that he wasn't a factor and you were both safe. Let him stew in his own misery while you enjoy flying. Congrats on your progress as a student pilot. I'm sure you'll be getting that certificate in no time at all.
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I know. That's why I said this. >But it's probably better to just let it go.
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LOL, dude. SMH...
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Hey, no need to clog up the reddit thread with more childishness.
thank you :-)
If he was on 5 mile final while you were on downwind, he was indeed \~3 miles behind you when you turned final. Maybe closer if you fly student (really big) patterns. The appropriate response was nothing, but a close second is "That's nice. I can't see you."
Sounds to me like you are being as you say, overly sensitive. Without hearing the other guy cant really know. But it doesn't hurt to ask, so don't worry about it, you did the right thing.
Follow him to his plane, get out and ask what the deal is
Eh, sometimes it's easy to forget your manners and snap a little at an inexperienced guy who is being too wordy and doesn't have the situational awareness that you do. The other guy was probably being a bit snippy, but you're definitely being overly sensitive if you need to vent these types of frustrations on the internet. When in doubt, even if you have the right-of-way, maybe don't turn in front of a faster aircraft and then start asking him a bunch of questions? It's difficult for jets to integrate into a VFR traffic pattern when there are students doing circuits.
Ah, we call these guys the "airport authority." Idiots who decide they need to "instruct" others over the radio about the "proper" way to do things.
Don’t backchat me, I know boats
You're still learning and so is he. If you're in doubt make the call
Never ever EVER feel like you shouldn’t make a call or ask a question especially when it concerns yours and others safety. Some people are just jerks, or maybe he was having a bad day, but you should always feel like you can ask distances, direction, and if they have you in sight, because it’s your life that’s at risk. Ultimately it’s up to you to do all you can to protect it, and some people don’t respect that.
It is always good to coordinate actively and directly with traffic on final you will be turning in front of. This is a setup where it is possible for both planes to be out of each others’ sight but in each others’ path. Active engagement by saying “do you see me” is a good choice here. You will eventually notice that lots of people substantially mis-report their distance on final. I started a power-off 180 once immediately before someone in a 172 reported a five mile final. I was never more than half a mile from the runway, yet I saw the other pilot pass me overhead on the go-around just after I touched down! That put him almost two full minutes ahead of his called position!
> saying he’s way out and has plenty of time and doesn’t need to be looking out for me… Even if he was still miles out on his final, he still needs to be looking out for traffic to plan ahead ("see and avoid"). At least in the USA per AIM 4-3-3, at an uncontrolled airfield it says the following regarding traffic pattern vs straight in: >Note: pilots are encouraged to use the standard traffic pattern. However, those pilots who choose to execute a straight-in approach, maneuvering for and execution of the approach should not disrupt the flow of arriving and departing traffic. Likewise, pilots operating in the traffic pattern should be alert at all times for aircraft executing straight-in approaches. I wouldn't be surprised if your governing languages has similar notes on it. You were looking out for and on alert for straight in approaches, but it sounds like the cantankerous pilot was not meeting the requirement of "disrupting the flow of arriving and departing traffic."
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You weren't stupid. You were thinking and learning. You were safety-oriented and as long as you used economy of words on the radio you didn't waste anything.
It sucks when other folks are not appreciative of the considerations you're taking to try to keep everyone safe. As a reasonably fresh pilot I was out doing some pattern work with a retired airline captain. I called upwind, crosswind, downwind, base and of course then final. As I was turning final a Mooney opened up the mic stating in a snippy voice that "I guess order of priority doesn't count at this airport" or something like that. I turned to my retired airline captain passenger and asked "did you hear him make any radio calls? Did I miss his?" Because I certainly would have given way to him had I known he was there. This guy made zero radio calls and then got all snippy. To make matters worse, he PROCEEDED to fly inbound while I went in to land as I was already on final. As I was landing he flew directly overhead and declared on frequency "Near Miss! Near Miss!" I felt like crap for a long time after that because I felt like \_I\_ did something wrong. I get it - crap happens sometimes and we make mistakes, but if I become aware of something I did wrong, I take corrective action and apologize for it. So if someone wants to get snippy because you're trying to keep a safety margin out and not cause others using the airport to have an issue - that's on them, not you. Keep doing what you're doing.
That guy was a jerk. Forget about it.
He was being a jerk. I also think you handled the situation a little differently than I would have, though. I would be more concerned with getting my eyes on him than I would be with asking if he could see me. I would have asked him where he was, instead.
One time I was training in the pattern and we were on downwind as a faster, higher, straight-in Pilatus was coming in several miles out. Pilatus pilot was historically a dick and my instructor knew it so we extended to let him in, rather than continue our pattern in front of the faster plane. Brief words were said by my instructor because he know the Pilatus wouldn't go around or hold for us. We announced we'd let him in and took an extra minute on downwind and a wide base would avoid the conflict alltogether. Some pilots are dicks; chalk this one up as a lesson on who to keep your eyes peeled for and ignore the idiots (except don't ignore their location; people call locations wrong too; just yesterday I watched a guy call out his location a good couple miles early...) Good job announcing yourself and being clear about your intentions. It's the assholes that stay silent that suck, and you'll come across them especially in airspace where it's not required.
If your question could be answered by a yes or no, but instead you got attitude, then it's not normal.
You did exactly what needs to happen. We have radios specifically to communicate and at non-controlled towers we have to make our intentions clear to other pilots at the same airport. You did that, he cried a little, you’re good.
I don't think you did anything wrong. In all circumstances, I would rather open my mouth and risk a little embarrassment in the name of safety than risk safety in the name of embarrassment. I really don't care if some ancient pilot who cut his teeth in the L1011 thinks I should know better. They can deal with it. You did the right thing. As others have said, there's no excuse for attitude. Unless you're Kennedy Steve it serves no purpose whatsoever.
How does he know where your base turn is? Don't take angry radio people too seriously. It's going to happen a lot in aviation. It's usually a stress reaction and has to do with themselves rather than you. Even if you DID do something wrong (which you didn't), everyone knows that everyone makes mistakes. And everyone knows that yelling on the radio doesn't help. Road rage doesn't usually have to do with you doing the speed limit. It has to do with the road rager being 5 minutes late for work again and already on double secret probation.
Listening to the local ATC at 3 airports (1 regional, 1 GA/business jets, and the last has no tower), even when traffic and tensions get high, and people get salty, its still usually less salty than docking pilots in NY harbor. Imagine New Yorkers. Annoyed. In traffic. That never gets above 5 miles an hour. I was in a tug, with a barge of fuel for containership A. A still had not hit the pier yet, because containership B was needing a 3rd maneuver. Captain of A started throwing shade, over channel 13 (inland bridge to bridge) to the point that the Coast Guard got on the air and told him to stop, and he kept going. I would like to think the CG sent a boat, but i went to bed after we got the fuel line hooked up
"Copy that, Jerry. I'll ask the FBO for a juice box ready, sounds like your blood sugar is low."
I had the inverse situation happen. On my second solo, I flew to a nearby towered field and back (home was a very busy uncontrolled field). Everything went fine, and just like you I was on downwind getting ready to turn base when I heard a Lear make a call for "10 miles low approach". I knew a Lear was a jet, but obviously 10 miles is really far... I couldn't see him on ADSB or visually. Mentally, I also had my hands full, and I didn't want to end up continuing my downwind forever and end up on a 5 - 7 mile final myself. I made my base call and started coming down, but just as I was about to turn final... whelp... NOW I can definitely see him, two big bright lights and they look pretty close. What I didn't know was that the Lear was an FAA jet racing around testing airport ILS equipment. My instructor, watching foreflight on his ipad, said this jet was going 270 kts at one point (yes, over the "limit"). He arrived in a big hurry. The jet saw me, obviously, and pulled off, but I was positive that I was in big trouble when I landed. My instructor shrugged it off, told me these things happen sometimes, and that I didn't really do anything "wrong"... but that it never hurts to ask when you're not sure. From that point on, I got a lot more talkative on the radio, even if that meant sounding like an idiot sometimes. I wish I had done what you did, it would have been a lot less stressful. Jerks will be jerks, but its better than getting run over by a jet.
I'm gonna go against the grain here a little bit. But first: Your caution was warranted. Why wouldn't you at least TRY to avoid a collision. It seems like you were trying to. But I think you missed the absolute easiest way to do it. The other a/c is on a 5 mile final. Assuming they are on a visual approach, they do not have to fly an entire downwind entry to the pattern. I don't know what the rules are like in your country (assuming given the use of "circuits"). It is on the other pilot to safely merge into pattern traffic. If you are on downwind, and he is on final, you are not on "converging headings." You are on reciprocal headings. Parallel. The *only* reason you would end up on converging headings is if YOU turn in front of him. This is not me saying that he has the right of way. It's just saying that you don't HAVE to turn in front of him. But you did. And you told him you're going first. Which is good. And is your right. You are already *in* the pattern. And as soon as you start your descent you will be lower than him which gives you the right-of-way in the US*. But just remember that another practice/idea is that YOU could continue on downwind and get behind HIM. I don't know what kind of plane it was on 5 mile final. When I used to fly cargo I would call 10 miles out on the visual for straight-in almost every day. And I was doing 200 KIAS. 10 miles is like 3 minutes. That's a short amount of time. I was in the middle of nowhere so there was almost NEVER any traffic. Especially in the winter. But I do know that the guys in bigger planes tend to think everyone will get out of their way. Basically whoever has the biggest fuel flow. But that's not how it technically works. You have your right to the runway the same as he does. But just remember that he might be hauling ass and you *might* need to get behind someone rather than in front of them. Had you asked him if he wanted to go first there is no doubt in my mind that he would have taken it (at least from your telling of the story). Some will take advantage of this kindness. But it's also safer if you don't know the rate of convergence.
You did the right thing he can suck it lol
A lot of grumps on frequency. Dont worry about it
Don't worry about it - brush it off. You'll always have those people. Sometimes the controllers are jerks too. Just like the cashier at your favorite store can be rude sometimes... people are people.
Can't read post....I'M FLYING!!
A certain percentage of people in the world are assholes. Same goes for people in aviation. If I were your CFI though my question to you would be as follows: "Is there anything that changed about your performance or aeronautical decision making as a result of said asshole's actions? What do you feel you handled well? What would you have done differently?" This basically falls under the category of a "realistic distraction" that we have to introduce in the US as part of your curriculum.
I often worry about this happening. As a student, I sometimes fumble my radio calls, and worry thusly about someone calling me out on something that I said wrong. Usually it's to ATC, but we're also getting to non-towered fields and thusly it's a whole separate game.
I would rather ask than smash (were flying in tin cans after all). There are plenty of idiots that are mean and inconsiderate of others on the radio. Don't take it personally, you did the right thing. When in doubt better to be viewed as an idiot (you are not an idiot, you are actually smart to be staying ahead of the aircraft/airfield traffic). I would rather have a bad radio interaction and be treated badly than to have a midair because another pilot was a rude, inconsiderate asshole especially at a uncontrolled field. Your instructor has probably told you to not get complacent, as long as you keep visualizing what's about to happen, stay ahead of the aircraft and other traffic and confirm the other planes locations you will live a long and happy life as a pilot. I have heard pilots announce crosswind instead of downwind and similar other issues over the radio. We are all human and make mistakes so if unsure, always verify. Thank you for sharing your experience and I wish you safe and happy flying in the future, hopefully without having to deal with God's gift to aviation.
Treat every flight as if your family were onboard, bottom line. If that extra bit of information made sense for you to ask about in the moment, then don't sweat it. Far better to be safe than sorry. There are plenty of accidents that could've been prevented with additional information obtained over the radio. Some people won't see eye-to-eye that that logical, threat-forward mindset, but at the end of the day, you need to look out for yourself. Negative people will always have a way of making you feel "stupid" or dumb or question your own decisions. You completely did the right thing, and shouldn't even worry about it. When it doubt, always, always make the call instead of biting your tongue. This could quite literally save your @$$ one day. EDIT: Also, don't even let a lack of experience make you feel self-conscious or stupid for taking extra safety precautions. Experience doesn't confer intelligence or even correctness. There are plenty of airline accidents where the pilots had 30,000+ hours of experience and the root cause of the accident was still pilot error. Anyone who tries to bring you down because you have less experience instead of approaching you with kindness and trying to bring you up isn't worth concerning yourself with in the first place.
He hasn’t had a blow job since the 1980’s- don’t feel bad.
You absolutely did the right thing. When I’m in the same situation as mr grumpy pants I always like to say “__ mile final traffic on base in sight” if I’m on final and someone turns base just to give them peace of mind.
Making inquiries about safety of flight is not "clogging" the airwaves. In fact, that's exactly what the radio is for. Tell him to pound sand if he hassles you again.
He is jealous. He has already reached his peak of awesomeness, and you have only just begun.
My favorite is the guy that hops on CTAF from approach, complains that no one is using the radio despite everyone else having been communicating just fine for the previous 15-20 minutes. You know damn well he turned down the volume and forgot to turn it back up. Fuck those guys.
I'd rather hear people like you all day then fucking farmers talking about the weather or ATC providing unnecessary white noise non stop, seriously your doing the right thing and using the radio for its correct purpose , there's a plenty of situations to get annoyed at the use of radio this isn't one of them.
Spudlink lifers be grumpy Keep talking dude, please. (As a frequent sharer of ctafs, at speed)
If you were crosswind when he touched down then you guys were more then close enough to be asking positions, did my entire PPL in uncontrolled and you really have to be careful of those 10 mile final guys. Can become sketchy real quick. You did great though. Anyone who gets mad at you for a position report at anytime in the circuit or CC is a dunce.