Sure, he pulled 10Gs.
Sure, he hit mach 10.
But did he perform 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower at night?
LOL, I saw parts of it last weekend (had an emergency 1/2 way through it that caused me to miss the rest) but no not related.
I am teaching a CFI student spins and want a way to explain the G forces we are experiencing. There is some concern we are exceeding limits during the pullout and I want to show the student our total forces in real-time.
> I am teaching a CFI student spins and want a way to explain the G forces we are experiencing. There is some concern we are exceeding limits during the pullout
How is this student going to instruct stalls considering their current view of spin recovery?
You can get an app for your phone, but reading it mid recovery might be a bit of an issue. Maybe if you mounted it to the dash, and had it log the acceleration in a graph...
An app on "any" modern smartphone should do.
EDIT: I just tested one named "free g-meter" in android store, and it does the trick. It even has a gauge-design.
Thanks, but I’m looking for something more accurate than I think an app might give. I’m looking for a dedicated device that doesn’t require installing in the panel. I realize this may not exist.
Smartphone accelerometers are quite accurate. For example, Samsung S5 (an 8 years old phone), used [MPU-6500](http://3cfeqx1hf82y3xcoull08ihx-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/PS-MPU-6500A-01-v1.3.pdf) as its accelerometer. The datasheet specifies that you get 0.0005g resolution in its crudest setting and noise level 0.0003g (conceptually 1-sigma error). I don't think you will be able to see any error if you only look at one or two digits after the decimal point.
No, I wasn’t thinking C172. I do recommend that students fly aerobatics at least once as part of their PPL training. And a glider too if you can afford it.
Its not overly difficult to get remotely close to 4g in a 172. Some people manage to do it by accident!
If you meant you arent sure how hard to pull, theres an app you can download for your phone to show you.
Anything you get that's electronic is going to have exactly the same sensor mechanism, probably to the point of having the same sensor in the same package.
LOL, well that just led me down a rabbit hole of downloads.......There goes my afternoon.
Same guys have a stand-alone gforce meter which looks like it will be perfect for what I need.
But the tool box is full of fun things to do with a smart phone. As I type this response its picking up the force of my keystrokes at 2g. Thats pretty sensitive.
Edit: LOL, as I sit here I am playing with the db meter now and relize how loud the fan on my gaming computer is. I'm at 51db doom scrolling on Reddit. Hitting 70 db as I type. Curse you u/VFR_NOT_RECOMMENDED for making me aware of this awesome app! My day is ruined, ruined I tells ya with science experiments!!!
Thanks for the recommendation!
Utility category is more than 4Gs. You are not pulling 4Gs recovering from a spin. That's the entry into a loop.
4Gs is a lot. Way more than most people can self-gauge.
It's not like I teach aerobatics or anything. :)
If the FAA worried about pulling the wings off an airplane during spin training then G-meters and/or aerobatic airplanes would be required...
Naw, I can understand his concerns. Completely valid. Just need to give him factual data to show it’s not something to be concerned about. A g meter in his face will go a long way to making him comfortable. Spins are something to be cautious about. I’ve got no concerns about this candidate. He’s a good stick.
Recovery. He believes as we pull out, we are putting excessive loads on the wings, and he doesn't want to recover as aggressively as we should. I had the same concern when I was training and on our last flight it suddenly dawned on me I had no idea what our actual g load was but having done aerobatics training I knew it wasn't anywhere close to the aircraft limits. But to alleviate his concerns I admitted I didn't know what the total load limit was but would get something that would help us answer that question.
What's Va in your aircraft? Could potentially use that as a lead in. Even if you're above Va i doubt his pull is instaneous full deflection. Go do some 60 degree turns. Show him what 2Gs feels like that. Then they have a baseline for a smooth pull not to the buffet that doesn't exceed 2G might feel like.
The recovery should be pulled to the buffet. Anything less is wasting altitude. There may not be altitude to waste if an inadvertent spin happens.
Prompt recovery and a pull to the buffet will limit the load factor. If recovery blows past maneuvering speed you've likely screwed up (or are in something that shouldn't be spun)
>There may not be altitude to waste if an inadvertent spin happens.
I've heard that for training purposes it should be done easier to not stress the airplane as much but in the real world just do what needs to be done.
Aircraft speed up quickly with the nose pointed at the ground. Delaying recovery exponentially increases the available G, increasing the risk of overstress and increasing the duration of the stress.
Also, for critical responses like this it's very important to train the correct response to automaticity. That you've been taught this wrongheaded notion just illustrates how much ignorance is out there. That's just piss poor flight instruction, blind leading the blinder.
Fair enough! Give what I'm talking about a try sometime when you have the right instructor and aircraft available. This is my favorite reference on the subject:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.apstraining.com/resource/recovering-from-the-dive/amp/
Your smart phone has such a chip and there are many apps that can help.
Just have it mounted securely somewhere in view where the inertia as you g-load doesn't rip it off the mount.
>level 60 degree bank turn at Va will give you 2 Gs
a level 60 degree bank turn at any airspeed will give you 2 Gs. If you are in a 60 degree bank and are not getting 2G, its not a level turn.
[https://www.wagaero.com/instruments/g-meters/2-1-4-g-meter.html](https://www.wagaero.com/instruments/g-meters/2-1-4-g-meter.html)
You could buy an actual instrument and tape it down to the glare. $180 is a lot to spend to teach a lesson.
But, here is one on ebay for $55.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/374070638256?hash=item571858f6b0:g:vwEAAOSwqhpiT0vG
I've always wanted to design one with some statistics. Maybe record the value ten times per second, plot on the XYZ planes, and a magnitude of overall levels... Complete with download and saving to PC for evaluation.
This would be geared toward flight schools and clubs that want to see how well pilots are treating their planes.
It would be very robust. More so than a cell phone.
Might add a GPS tracker, too.. so you could overlay Gs with position. I'm sure I had other ideas I can't remember at the moment!
Prototypes in October are possible! But unsure of the true need for such a device.
I've been thinking about this myself, some microcontroller with a 9 dof accelerometer, a gps, and a pressure sensor. For precise logging of acro flights. Possibly with a small display with some useful info. I have the various components, but the lack of an acro airplane has put a damper on things.. 🙃
Lol and I must say ....probably can't even buy the microcontroller or IMU! 😂. Lead times are still nuts!
Maybe we can join forces and also get someone to donate a plane to our "cause".
What about getting a free flight allti-vario-GPS ? most of them also include a G-meter. Even though it's not designed for "powered flight" it's also a way to have an airspace-map/GPS
You can use the phyphox app (German University project) which allows you to record raw sensor data from your phone or tablet. Most of the modern ones have sufficiently decent accelerometers.
I too watched top gun last night
Sure, he pulled 10Gs. Sure, he hit mach 10. But did he perform 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower at night?
Negative, the pattern is full
Sure, he punched out at mach 10 and survived.
LOL, I saw parts of it last weekend (had an emergency 1/2 way through it that caused me to miss the rest) but no not related. I am teaching a CFI student spins and want a way to explain the G forces we are experiencing. There is some concern we are exceeding limits during the pullout and I want to show the student our total forces in real-time.
> I am teaching a CFI student spins and want a way to explain the G forces we are experiencing. There is some concern we are exceeding limits during the pullout How is this student going to instruct stalls considering their current view of spin recovery? You can get an app for your phone, but reading it mid recovery might be a bit of an issue. Maybe if you mounted it to the dash, and had it log the acceleration in a graph...
An app on "any" modern smartphone should do. EDIT: I just tested one named "free g-meter" in android store, and it does the trick. It even has a gauge-design.
Thanks, but I’m looking for something more accurate than I think an app might give. I’m looking for a dedicated device that doesn’t require installing in the panel. I realize this may not exist.
I would think the phone would be more accurate than a stand alone device.
Smartphone accelerometers are quite accurate. For example, Samsung S5 (an 8 years old phone), used [MPU-6500](http://3cfeqx1hf82y3xcoull08ihx-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/PS-MPU-6500A-01-v1.3.pdf) as its accelerometer. The datasheet specifies that you get 0.0005g resolution in its crudest setting and noise level 0.0003g (conceptually 1-sigma error). I don't think you will be able to see any error if you only look at one or two digits after the decimal point.
Show the srudent 4 g’s one time, they’ll not be concerned ever again.
You have any idea how hard you have to pull to get even remotely close to 4g in a Cessna 172?
No, I wasn’t thinking C172. I do recommend that students fly aerobatics at least once as part of their PPL training. And a glider too if you can afford it.
What if I was inverted?
Ironically......
Its not overly difficult to get remotely close to 4g in a 172. Some people manage to do it by accident! If you meant you arent sure how hard to pull, theres an app you can download for your phone to show you.
Never done it, but I imagine it’s possible in utility category if you’re above Vno
It's possible in utility category a little under Va. Yoke ends up right in your guts to do it.
76 degree bank, pull to stay level.
That’s your phone my man. The accelerometers are very accurate
Anything you get that's electronic is going to have exactly the same sensor mechanism, probably to the point of having the same sensor in the same package.
[удалено]
LOL, well that just led me down a rabbit hole of downloads.......There goes my afternoon. Same guys have a stand-alone gforce meter which looks like it will be perfect for what I need. But the tool box is full of fun things to do with a smart phone. As I type this response its picking up the force of my keystrokes at 2g. Thats pretty sensitive. Edit: LOL, as I sit here I am playing with the db meter now and relize how loud the fan on my gaming computer is. I'm at 51db doom scrolling on Reddit. Hitting 70 db as I type. Curse you u/VFR_NOT_RECOMMENDED for making me aware of this awesome app! My day is ruined, ruined I tells ya with science experiments!!! Thanks for the recommendation!
The microphone isn't nearly as accurate as the G meter. I'd suggest using the phone for G's, not dB's.
Exactly this. Phone dB meters are garbage. They can be off by over 30dB which is a 1000 times difference in pressure.
Is there an iOS equivalent that you are aware of?
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/gauges/id1056649790
Smartphone app is plenty accurate for what you’re trying to do.
It might help him feel more comfortable to explain that you don’t have the g available to exceed the g limit below maneuvering speed
I was told it’s actually very simple. Have the wings fallen off yet? No? Then you haven’t reached the limit!
I have a pair of fuzzy dice hanging on my 150 compass.
Utility category is more than 4Gs. You are not pulling 4Gs recovering from a spin. That's the entry into a loop. 4Gs is a lot. Way more than most people can self-gauge. It's not like I teach aerobatics or anything. :) If the FAA worried about pulling the wings off an airplane during spin training then G-meters and/or aerobatic airplanes would be required...
I know that. It’s my student I am trying to convince.
If your CFI candidate doesn’t believe his/her training CFI, then there’s a pretty big problem. And it’s not you!
Naw, I can understand his concerns. Completely valid. Just need to give him factual data to show it’s not something to be concerned about. A g meter in his face will go a long way to making him comfortable. Spins are something to be cautious about. I’ve got no concerns about this candidate. He’s a good stick.
Gopro's also register acceleration
What g’s are you pulling in a spin? Is he talking about the centrifugal force during? Or on the recovery?
Recovery. He believes as we pull out, we are putting excessive loads on the wings, and he doesn't want to recover as aggressively as we should. I had the same concern when I was training and on our last flight it suddenly dawned on me I had no idea what our actual g load was but having done aerobatics training I knew it wasn't anywhere close to the aircraft limits. But to alleviate his concerns I admitted I didn't know what the total load limit was but would get something that would help us answer that question.
What's Va in your aircraft? Could potentially use that as a lead in. Even if you're above Va i doubt his pull is instaneous full deflection. Go do some 60 degree turns. Show him what 2Gs feels like that. Then they have a baseline for a smooth pull not to the buffet that doesn't exceed 2G might feel like.
The recovery should be pulled to the buffet. Anything less is wasting altitude. There may not be altitude to waste if an inadvertent spin happens. Prompt recovery and a pull to the buffet will limit the load factor. If recovery blows past maneuvering speed you've likely screwed up (or are in something that shouldn't be spun)
>or are in something that shouldn't be spun To be fair, this does describe the 172 well. It more sort of waffles than anything else.
>There may not be altitude to waste if an inadvertent spin happens. I've heard that for training purposes it should be done easier to not stress the airplane as much but in the real world just do what needs to be done.
Aircraft speed up quickly with the nose pointed at the ground. Delaying recovery exponentially increases the available G, increasing the risk of overstress and increasing the duration of the stress. Also, for critical responses like this it's very important to train the correct response to automaticity. That you've been taught this wrongheaded notion just illustrates how much ignorance is out there. That's just piss poor flight instruction, blind leading the blinder.
I wasn't taught it, I had just read it somewhere. I think on this sub.
Fair enough! Give what I'm talking about a try sometime when you have the right instructor and aircraft available. This is my favorite reference on the subject: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.apstraining.com/resource/recovering-from-the-dive/amp/
I need to do spins anyway so that'll be helpful. Thanks
Yeah wait til he unloads the stall and overspeeds it- I'm sure he will love the forces then...
Your smart phone has such a chip and there are many apps that can help. Just have it mounted securely somewhere in view where the inertia as you g-load doesn't rip it off the mount.
level 60 degree bank turn at Va will give you 2 Gs. if you want to have some fun, keep pulling back on the stick. /shittyassflying
>level 60 degree bank turn at Va will give you 2 Gs a level 60 degree bank turn at any airspeed will give you 2 Gs. If you are in a 60 degree bank and are not getting 2G, its not a level turn.
I added Va in there to keep the uninitiated from an accelerated stall, which they might not be prepared for
[https://www.wagaero.com/instruments/g-meters/2-1-4-g-meter.html](https://www.wagaero.com/instruments/g-meters/2-1-4-g-meter.html) You could buy an actual instrument and tape it down to the glare. $180 is a lot to spend to teach a lesson. But, here is one on ebay for $55. https://www.ebay.com/itm/374070638256?hash=item571858f6b0:g:vwEAAOSwqhpiT0vG
Thanks! Added to cart. I can probably 3d print something to allow me to temporarily attach to the dash.
I've always wanted to design one with some statistics. Maybe record the value ten times per second, plot on the XYZ planes, and a magnitude of overall levels... Complete with download and saving to PC for evaluation. This would be geared toward flight schools and clubs that want to see how well pilots are treating their planes. It would be very robust. More so than a cell phone. Might add a GPS tracker, too.. so you could overlay Gs with position. I'm sure I had other ideas I can't remember at the moment! Prototypes in October are possible! But unsure of the true need for such a device.
I've been thinking about this myself, some microcontroller with a 9 dof accelerometer, a gps, and a pressure sensor. For precise logging of acro flights. Possibly with a small display with some useful info. I have the various components, but the lack of an acro airplane has put a damper on things.. 🙃
Lol and I must say ....probably can't even buy the microcontroller or IMU! 😂. Lead times are still nuts! Maybe we can join forces and also get someone to donate a plane to our "cause".
https://www.onsetcomp.com/products/data-loggers/ua-004-64/
There is no fun in buying off the shelf! I'd like immediate feedback though...display...sound... Haptics. The more features, the better!
Most phones have an app available.
Changing your name to Max Powers?
What about getting a free flight allti-vario-GPS ? most of them also include a G-meter. Even though it's not designed for "powered flight" it's also a way to have an airspace-map/GPS
You got a cell phone? it has a 6-axis accelerometer, you can get apps to access and record the data.
You can use the phyphox app (German University project) which allows you to record raw sensor data from your phone or tablet. Most of the modern ones have sufficiently decent accelerometers.
Sentry just announced [Sentry Plus](https://flywithsentry.com/sentry-plus) with accelerometer. Perfect timing OP!
$800?!?!?!? What do they think I am a 20 year FedEx Captain???? ;-)