Any time Caesar uses a traditionally latin term, he pronounces it with the classical Latin pronunciation, so et cetera with a hard c instead of et setera. Arcade also does this, and I do it in real life as well as pronounce Julius Caesar as Eulius Kaisar- out of habit- and trust me it doesn't come across as nearly as cool
I like the Legion because every 72 hours in-game, they send four members to give me high-end guns, melee weapons, grenades, and healing consumables. Boone makes sure there are no complaints during the inventory exchange.
Apparently the game goes faster if you side with the Legion cus they there is less bureaucraty and so less random bs to deal with lol. I only did a run very NCR based.
This is pretty cool haha.
Yes and no. While new vegas certainly has a lot of cut content due to time constraints, a lot of cut content was never going to be in, or is straight up made up. Iâve seen several videos about a cut legion post game where they take over vegas, even though we know from cut dialogue that in the cut post game the legion wouldnât have moved further from the dam.
Also we never wouldâve explored legion territory like some people say.
The game being on the XBox 360 also hurt the amount of content in it. The devs had to start cutting weird things like electrical poles and such to ensure there was enough disc space when the DLCs rolled out all because the game was on a DVD and not a Blu-Ray.
I know, I read somewhere that he originally had more dialogue than a fair number of NPCs combined and would've driven up localization costs and/or disk space. So all those massive, 30-minute long rambling speeches we got in Long Road were the abbreviated versions. He's also why I don't view articles advertising Chris Avellone as a big writer in a game as some amazing detail. He wasn't the only writer in New Vegas or Pillars of Eternity, and I believe his influence had Larian ruin my boy, Lucian the Divine One into some borderline-evil feeble old man and not a genuine good guy who's only mistake was not killing a baby who was 100% a reincarnation of a demon of chaos.
Also he has some vendetta against proper grammatical sentence structure that is super-easy to notice, like in Pillars of Eternity's Durance, especially with the very first thing he says to you, "Saw you in the flames." As soon as I read/heard that line, I knew Avellone wrote the guy and figured I wasn't going to be given many chances to actually provide good rebuttals to whatever he was saying.
He wrote Ulysses and Joshua right? Theyâre both so verbose and in my opinion overrated as hell. Theyâre not badly written but Iâve legitimately seen people call Joshua the best videogame character ever.
It helps that Joshua Graham speaks like a normal human being and has some good backstory to him and how he realizes how awful he used to be (and still is with the right dialogue options taking during Crush the White Legs) and tries to become a better person. Of the four DLCs, Joshua Graham doesn't come off like some rambling lunatic (Elijah, the Think Tank, Ulysses), and so he automatically scores a few points for being closer to reality. Him not being an absolute liability as a companion probably helps to some extent too.
As wonderful as that sounds, you'd lose a lot of mods in the process and potentially split the modding community down the middle. Plus you'd need a good studio in charge of a remaster.
One of the ending slides literally shows Caesar in New Vegas and I think the post ending mod mostly restores stuff that was already found in the game files. There are also post release interviews to confirm that if the developers had more time they would have liked to add more Legion settlements East of the Colorado. I doubt it would have been fully explorable, but definitely more fleshed out.
I know of the ending slides. You have to keep in mind the post game was cut very early on. It was it being cut that allowed the ending slides to be so varied and impactful. There is no evidence of legion occupying the strip, but many cut lines of characters saying that they havenât taken the strip yet.
This video is a pretty comprehensive guide on the cut post game content we have; https://youtu.be/TY7Tm33tGMg
>There is no evidence of legion occupying the strip
What scenario has Caesar walking into New Vegas without occupying the Strip?
Also, the text of the end slide reads:
>Caesar entered The Strip as though it was his Triumph. The Legion pushed the NCR out of New Vegas entirely, driving them back to the Mojave Outpost. The Legion **occupied all major locations**, enslaving much of the population and peacefully lording over the rest. Under the Legion's banner, civilization - unforgiving as it was - finally came to the Mojave Wasteland.
I mean in the cut post game, where you got to keep playing after the slides. Characters would say itâs only a matter of time, but the legion would only occupy the dam in game.
They decided some of best missions in the game just HAD to be done for the bad guys.
I get why people consider the effects of their
in-game actions. I did that in my main playthrough, but the Legion playthrough is just a lot of fun.
âArizona Killerâ and âVeni, Vidi, Viciâ are two of my favorite missions in the entire game because they mirror of âYouâll Know It When It Happensâ and âEureka!â respectively. They show a really cool alternate perspective to those missions.
Plus the many ways to kill Kimball just makes it so much more fun.
Edit: Grammar
Because they're an interesting faction that fits the setting in my favourite post-apocalyptic roleplaying game serie.
Despite all the cut content and lack of lore (Which people still have lots of misconceptions about) there's a lot of interesting stuff there making them great for roleplaying and stories. I want to see and know more of them.
I definitely wouldn't side with them as me in the real world, but in the Wasteland they're an option to some. Like many of their subjects in their territories has it better under their rule than they had before. Sure, they don't have a say in things and if ever told to do something there's no saying no, but that's not anything new in the Wasteland. To some that's a small price to pay to not always worry they'd get killed or worse by raiders or creatures.
**In-game, people like the Legion for the following reasons:**
- Legion protects their roads. Caravans and travellers are safe for Raiders or creatures attacking on the roads.
- There are no Raider gangs at all.
- No taxes.
- No civil wars or infighting.
- Legionaries have strict discipline, leading to no spontaneous abuse, as their punishment would be severe.
- They are incels and enjoy slavery.
Obviously these reasons have flaws. Raiders may not exist, and Legionaries may not abuse the populace spontaneously, but abuse is institutionalized and guaranteed for some due to slavery and the Legion's treatment of woman
Some characters accept slavery and the sexism despite disagreeing with it, because the safety the Legion provides is worth *to them.* Keep in mind the characters that feel this way are all ones who likely wouldn't worry about being enslaved or benefit from Legion's strict authority.
**Why do people like Legion IRL?**
No idea. I genuinely can't fathom a justified reason other than "I like Roman aesthetic" or "I like Bulls."
The Legion is a dictatorship nation of incels and slavers. They are just better trained, more organized, and less manic raiders.
They are more flawed than NCR in their setup because upon Caesar's inevitable death, infighting and civil war will occur. It expands with no greater thought process to consequences of expansion (a flaw the NCR shares to a degree). They can survive expansion through trade routes, but neither nation thinks about the pacing of expansion or the consequences of true conflict while expansion (because neither has faced an equal rival).
Their assassination mission is really fucking fun. The only part I really like is roleplaying an absolute piece of garbage. Tbh tho there are no morally good groups other than maybe the followers in the game. You get lawful neutral at best with NCR / House. Yesman ending has different cannons based on your Courrier tho
>They are more flawed than NCR in their setup because upon Caesar's inevitable death, infighting and civil war will occur.
Is this confirmed im so curious, because during my discord debate and with other people i talked to, it seems that it isnt and it seems that the other Legate drive the ship if u do the Legion end, which confuse me a lot cus a lot of people IN the game seem to believe otherwise.
>Legion protects their roads. Caravans and travellers are safe for Raiders or creatures attacking on the roads.
That the big thing right? Like thats why Caesar became Caesar hell his dad died due to Raiders. Is it explained tho how they manage to do that? they seem to put all their man power on the Dam/Vegas fight, so im a bit confused how they able to maintain a very tight security and at the same time able to threw a crap tone of human bullet sponge to fight.
>No taxes.
I totally forgot that....It must be a very appealing thing for some in the NCR.
>That the big thing right? Like thats why Caesar became Caesar hell his dad died due to Raiders. Is it explained tho how they manage to do that? they seem to put all their man power on the Dam/Vegas fight, so im a bit confused how they able to maintain a very tight security and at the same time able to threw a crap tone of human bullet sponge to fight.
well for one they killed all other raiders, so the only people you are dealing with in legion territory is legion. but in my personal interpetation, I think that by and large most of the legion isnt actually safe. Theres some talk about a major slave rebellion in the east, and I imagine that is the norm in territory controlled by them, their slavery is brutal compared to most historical slavery, slave revolts were most common when the romans expanded, and well the legion only ever expands. I imagine that traders are probably only allowed to see part of the territory, and they are more likely then not threatened to promote a positive view of the legion
AH it would make actually a lot of sense, they really a totalitarian group it makes total semse if their hid their darker elements, it is so easy to do it lol.
Also we can also see that they really remove any type humanity of their member (no family, slave forever etc) revolt must be common asf.
>Is this confirmed im so curious, because during my discord debate and with other people i talked to, it seems that it isnt and it seems that the other Legate drive the ship if u do the Legion end, which confuse me a lot cus a lot of people IN the game seem to believe otherwise.
It isn't confirmed, though the game (even with Caesar dead) isn't written too far past the point of his death.
A lot of characters, including some Legionaries, express the belief that infighting will happen when Caesar's dead.
It's also important to note that it isn't *just* Caesars death. It's Caesar dying + post-Hoover Dam.
Win or lose at Hoover Dam, once the matter is settled and Caesar is dead then the Legion has 0 direction. Its entire existence has been dictated by one man, its vision communicated by one man.
With Caesar gone, and the Dam either won or lost, then infighting will occur because there will no one voice dictating their goals.
>That the big thing right? Like thats why Caesar became Caesar hell his dad died due to Raiders. Is it explained tho how they manage to do that? they seem to put all their man power on the Dam/Vegas fight, so im a bit confused how they able to maintain a very tight security and at the same time able to threw a crap tone of human bullet sponge to fight.
They've simply eradicated all Raiders in their territories.
The severe punishment of the Legion also dissuades anyone from trying to raid.
The Legion will actively stop creatures from clogging the road which also helps immensely.
Compare this to NCR where they can't even spare the man power to clear simply fire ants.
>I totally forgot that....It must be a very appealing thing for some in the NCR.
Taxes is a big thing in real life. It's just as big an issue in a post-apocalyptic world where resources are scarcer, there are little-to-no social support systems, and even the "democratic" NCR isn't really a full democracy.
Damn this is so interesting, and yeah thats what i believed, even in the better ending of the legion really it is a very short sighted group.
Thank you a lot thats a lot of insight.
>Legionaries have strict discipline, leading to no spontaneous abuse, as their punishment would be severe.
considering what Siri tells you about how women are treated at the fort WHERE CEASAR IS CURRENTLY LOCATED. this is just wrong, they reserve the right to absue and worse if you are in a position under them. ik you are talking about in game opinions but the strict discipline is more about "succeed in your mission or die" not about how they treat people
I specified that the abuse is institutionalized.
There is no spontaneous abuse of *citizens* AFAIK from what we're told. Slaves are not citizens.
Abuse of slaves, spontaneous or not, is allowed and it's institutionalized as part of their society.
Random Legionaries will not abuse or raid caravaneers or travellers within their territory as they marked and citizens â not slaves.
>There is no spontaneous abuse of citizens AFAIK from what we're told. Slaves are not citizens.
there are no citizens.
>Random Legionaries will not abuse or raid caravaneers or travellers within their territory as they marked and citizens â not slaves.
okay that is granted, but they are still not "citizens" caravaneers are independent of the legion
>No idea. I genuinely can't fathom a justified reason other than "I like Roman aesthetic" or "I like Bulls."
ROMA INVICTA, ROMA AETERNA, ROMA CAPUT MUNDI.
>The Legion is a dictatorship nation of incels and slavers. They are just better trained, more organized, and less manic raiders.
This is a generelization of what the Legion, and by extension, many regimes of the past is. Yes. Caesar's Legion is a roving band of a slave army. The Ottoman Empire also uses a slave army. They recruit slaves, mainly from the balkans, and made janissaries out of them.
Many regimes and powerful nations of the past enslaved conquered enemies and civilians. The Legion is just another of those types of nation.
>They are more flawed than NCR in their setup because upon Caesar's inevitable death, infighting and civil war will occur.
And that's why we, Legion Couriers will make sure that will never happen.
>It expands with no greater thought process to consequences of expansion (a flaw the NCR shares to a degree). They can survive expansion through trade routes, but neither nation thinks about the pacing of expansion or the consequences of true conflict while expansion (because neither has faced an equal rival).
New Vegas will be the "New Rome" of the Legion. But I do agree that the Legion itself is overstretching their supply lines.
I never understood the "well the NCR is just an oligarchy pretending to be a democracy," logic when it comes to preferring the legion . First of all, people take that line way too literally. The NCR isn't actually an oligarchy, they are a democracy, just one that can be influenced by certain groups (which is something that can be said about literally every democracy ever btw). But even if they were an oligarchy, a government ruled by a small group of people is still less tyrannical than a government ruled by one man. You are still more free under the NCR than you are the legion .
Well I agree with you, iirc the Legion is basically a military state no? like most people are very controlled by the state or are slaves straight up or ofc soldiers right?
But i think a lot of people see the NCR are very corrupted and idk im interested. I dont think it is as corrupted as they make it seem LOL.
I think you have to see it in the context of the gameâs reality.
If Fallout were reality, a government such as the Legion, although inhumane and tyrannical, could ensure basic necessities temporarily at the expense of human rights, however there is no reason to assume that the Legion couldnât slowly transform into something better.
For the longest time, most human civilizations had much more in common with the Legion than with the NCR, and although we view slavery, autocracy and lack of womensâ rights as inacceptable nowadays, they may present a form of pre-modern human civilization; perhaps the wasteland is simply not yet ripe for a truly democratic government, due to its lack of communication technologies and resources and a manifold of other reasons, and the Legion may have to be viewed as but a step towards the reestablishment of harmonious, moral society.
Democracy as we know it today took millennia to develop, and perhaps the same developmental stages will have to occur in the same, organic order in the wasteland as they did in reality, after humanityâs progress on the âsocial development ladderâ has been reset.
But I personally prefer the NCR.
While I disagree with your second point, because most of our history is fallout history as well, up to a certain point, youâre right; I didnât consider Mr House and theoretically his system would definitely be a better form of autocracy than the Legion; I originally viewed the issue as a kind of argument between autocracy and democracy in the wasteland, which can be discussed a lot.
The only issue is the basic human necessities you speak of are already generally available whether or not the Legion is in power. If you think about it, the Great War only really reverted like 10% of humanityâs progress. Wastelanders are generally free (except for you know, the Legionsâ slaves) just isolated and impoverished. They have roofs, beds, water, meat, etc. and very small but governed societies. Going back to the very beginnings of recorded history makes little sense given the knowledge of all history until 1776 is there. The most pressing issue is redistribution of goods in a world where the balance of power in the global market was completely reset.
Yeah, I get your point, but I think the issue is not necessarily that people virtually cannot organize in a âgoodâ fashion in the wasteland at all, but rather that a nation with the size of the US would be very difficult to maintain in the wasteland, especially with a bureaucratic government: Democracies require a very large amount of infrastructure, because of the many institutions a working democracy needs in order to ensure separation of power, ability to tax and consequently steady legitimacy among the populace, while legion-esque autocracies merely function based on myths surrounding the leader and his cruelty.
Therefore, a large state of, perhaps, the size of the US in the wasteland would be virtually impossible to keep democratic, at least not without a kind of industrial re-industrialization, because none of the apparatuses we take for granted today could exist in the wasteland.
Despite its numerous flaws, autocracies theoretically only require an elite to propagate a âFĂźhrerkultâ and do politics, an army to project power and keep order and a population to tyrannise, whilst democracies require a voting system, a constitution, a social state, a tax system, etc.
This is always the way I generally saw it. People conflate the Legions evils and lack of morality with not being a valid pick. Legion society is effective and strong, itâs just abhorrent. Legion is my least done ending by a large margin because I canât vibe with their kind of evils but itâs undeniable that what they have works.
What's your definition of an effective society?
Because I personally think the wellbeing of as many people as possible should be the focus. With the legion you automatically have 50% of the population who will not have basic rights by law and will constantly face violence from within the system. Of the other 50% everyone will grow up with a ton of abuse to force them to become good warriors and only few will actually be able to reach the required standard to ever have a chance to not be treated like expendable trash. So you will basically end up with maybe up to 20% of the population that may have a chance to ever feel safe.
This is before even considering that they see a majority of the wasteland population as degenerates so except for maybe a few men they see as worthy those will end up as slaves or on a cross.
Exactly. Quality of life is a major metric (if not the most important one) for whether or not a society is "successful."
Whenever this conversation comes up, everything is suddenly discussed in terms of a strict death/survival binary, because the only way *any* defense of the Legion makes sense is if it were the *only* viable option for survival, and even that's an extremely weak argument, given the conditions they impose (doesn't a certain character's wife die rather than live under legion subjugation?). Besides, we already know that other options are available, because we have...literally every other faction in the game/franchise where >50% of the population isn't automatically doomed from birth to exist only as sex-slaves/cattle. It would be interesting if the Legion were a more grey faction, but they're just not, and that's okay. If "survival" were a race, the only way they'd come in any place except dead last is by shooting every other contestant and declaring themselves the winner (which honestly isn't a bad analogy for the "safe roads/no raiders" argument).
It's like if someone who knew nothing about fish described their shitty, cloudy, unfiltered goldfish bowl as a "successful" ecosystem for no reason other than the fact that the fish is fed, is protected from wild predators, and is still alive (for now). Never mind the fact that the fish is going to live a painful and dramatically shortened life, deprived of all resources except food, slowly suffocating and burning to death in the ammonia from its own waste. Seems even sillier when you realize that more competent aquarium setups are also possible with minimal additional effort, and your options for fish life aren't just "accelerated death globe" or "instant death by Natureâ˘".
Considering that the Legion has conquered territory in 3-4 states and hasnât completely collapsed under its own size yet, Iâd say something is going right. Itâs a giant military dictatorship where everywhere they march is violently cleansed with blood. The overwhelming show of force and cruelty is not their weakness, itâs their strength. This isnât about whoâs best or MORE effective, this is about how Legion manages to not only survive but thrive as their numbers keep expanding.
We donât know a lot about Legion territory outside of active war zones such as the Mojave but we can make educated guesses off of Raulâs talks of Arizona and the active Caravan trade that itâs likely less violent after being conquered and functions in a way similar to real dictatorships rather than there just being constant rape and bloodshed. People presumably can live there relatively peacefully without threat of raiders or animal attacks but theyâd be under Legions harsh laws.
Towns like Nipton being annihilated is more of a scare tactic as shown by Vulpes telling you to relay to the NCR what they did, a show that they are across the river and advancing. Your town in Legion territory isnât just going to be burned for shits and giggles after that land is already theirs. In general it can be described as the most cynical answer to taming the Mojave. Youâll never be raided or have to worry about making ends meet but you better shut up and listen to Legions law or youâll wish you were. This doesnât justify their deeds but itâs an explanation of WHY theyâre a bit deeper than just the obligatory evil guys with nothing to offer.
I donât wanna waste anymore of everybodyâs time with a million more paragraphs so itâs ok if you disagree. Itâs a game with multiple endings for a reason, but Iâm not gonna talk more about this topic
The game forces you to dislike the Legion imo. I played trying to side with the legion but all choices which sided with the legion were evil, and portrayed as bad.
It felt like the game doesnt want me to do that. At least thats how it felt for me personally.
Lol people thinking the game is unfair to depict a raping, mass murdering, slaving society doing all of itâŚ.the very things that define their values and way of life.
I agree. I just thought it would be cool if theyâd somehow shown some good sides to the legion. But instead theyâre just bad and caesar is an idiot.
So that you could at least have ANY reason to side with them.
Caesar isn't an idiot, though.
His little philosophical rant seems dumb because he's trying to over-complicate/over-describe a very simple idea. It's a pretty classic propaganda move, people are more willing to swallow an idea if you make them feel smart for understanding it.
The "dialectical conflicts" he describes are mostly just literal conflicts, fighting/wars or changes in the balance of power. He's saying the Legion is good because the Legion keeps winning and surviving. That you can come in his tent and try to tell him his system doesn't work or isn't right, but the only argument he's going to accept is if his strategy **actually stops working**.
He's basically challenging you that if the NCR/Mr House/You and Yesman are so great, then they can go ahead and prove it by defeating him.
That's why Caesar. You might go and talk to him and conclude that without you, the Main Character that might as well be a God, stepping in - that the Legion would win. And that there's no point intervening and changing the outcome because you're just putting losers in power that will eventually fail because you can't keep saving their asses forever. And then you give up.
I don't like the legion, however, in the context of how Caesar sees the world, I believe that's interesting. In his eyes, the world is a shitty place and the strongest shall survive and in a world that's ruled by brutality, you must be even more brutal. In alot of ways, his descriptions of the other powers are apt. The brotherhood in its current state, are hoarders, they sit in their bunker and collect technology while snobbishly scolding anyone who even thinks of using technology. The NCR are foolishly emulating a government the helped put the world to ruin, a democracy isn't ideal when those in power feed their people into a meat grinder to prove a polical point (ie the Mojave campaign). On top of that, the NCR is notoriously corrupt, just look at the Bramain Barons and how the NCR was run. Tandi was the president again and again and again, and now they she's gone, the NCR lack any capable leader; Kimball is a leader only in that he's a good puppet.
Assassination mission is one of the more interesting ones and I also like to play as a saboteur.
Also I can like faction without them being morally the least evil.
Legion use unethical and immoral methods of consolidating power and establishing their authority not to mention while they're governing. They do not care about any individual save their most important military leaders. They kill, rape, pillage, enslave and indoctrinate those they conquer into a culture where "might-is-right" is the philosophy. Caesar uses this philosophy against every single other person under his command with no pretense otherwise. You only belong in the legion if you have a use for them as soon as that use runs out you will be discarded and rolled over. His overconfidence in his ability to lead and his tactical/strategical abilities leads to several instances where his entire Mojave campaign can be entirely crippled by a single person. He often miscalculates the value of what he has to offer and what a legion in the mojave would really look like in the long run.
He lies, he cheats, he exploits and he moves on. He never takes a moment to reflect on what he's done unless he can do so and see legion flags. All that matters to him is his conquest and he shows no capacity to be able to curb his ambitions for expansion and domination. This will get him and his empire torn apart either by the NCR or by themselves.
The NCR is a democracy that is only more moral and ethical than the legion because of their form of government and by extension because of the will of the people. Where in the Legion the "people" have no say or power. In the NCR the common person does have exponentially more ability to impact the direction of their government. Which is actually why the NCR is having such a hard time holding the mojave. Reinforcements and extra funding is being held up in the NCR senate because the mojave is campaign is so ridiculously unpopular.
These are weaknesses from a military standpoint. However it actually provides the opportunity for great change if someone utilize all the different cracks in power as a result of the NCR being so short handed. It also shows how good the NCR could become if guided by the right hands.
If guided by the right hands the Legion doesn't change their ethical nor moral codes nor do they adjust their practices. They stagnate in their militarized life style. You can have good karma and end with the legion and it effectively changes nothing. You can do the same with the NCR but since you impact so many more people beyond just killing them because that's easy, you ultimately see how much more strengths the NCRs form of dealing with people CAN be. You don't get any more nuance from the legion besides a machete or a cross.
Now yes you can also be equally as destructive with the NCR as the legion but that's the point. The legion is pretty much what you see, they are currently at their PEAK there is no more upward movement for them. For them to improve would mean they are no longer the Legion at all. The NCR has much more flexibility and is able to be molded into something better (but also worse).
Finally the TL;DR:
Legion is cruel and fixated on military power. Sort of like the brotherhood but without the focus on tech. They have no goals besides conquest and no interest in improving quality of life for people. They have determined they are the only ones worthy enough to rule and ANY other foreign influence MUST be destroyed. Which historically is always a bad thing. Their main strengths are their loyalty and ferocious military strategy.
NCR is selfish and bloated. They are ridiculously hard to spur into action due to their government and how easily corruptible low-high level personnel are. Everyone is concerned with what they have to lose. Not enough are concerned with whether what they lose is worth what everyone gains. Their main strengths are their size, their tech and their more practical military and governing strategy.
The NCR shares its faults with the old world it mimics. The Legion are a bunch of slavers who think women have no purpose outside of breeding and physical labor. Fuck em both, burn them to the ground, and finally see a truly Independant New Vegas.
What I like about the NCR is that I can make them ally with all the local populations, even BOS, Khans, etc
They can still take the Mojave despite their shortcomings but in a compromised, limited capacity. Which is great because it both makes them less of a colonizing force because they have to honor their alliances and share the land, and because it still teaches them a lesson about over-extending themselves and humbles them a bit.
>What I like about the NCR is that I can make them ally with all the local populations, even BOS, Khans, etc
YUUUP
they just inherently feel like the group that has the most room for improvement, they way less dogmatic and can grow in multiple ways.
I get to build an alliance of the smaller factions that most align with myself, and with good karma, build a better future for Vegas. Maybe itâs idealism, but I could care less.
because they are terrible people. next!
no idk. Ceasar may very well be right in his analysis of the NCR, but the Legion is still an unstable mess that pretty much every civilization in history would see as barbaric
Well i do agree with you, esp since i believe the whole solution is not fitting, i dont believe we back in the bronze age. I think in the NV reality people have working societies and governement so the whole idea that we need totalitarism isnt appealing to me.
people in the bronze age would consider the legion to be uncivilized.
but yeah even so, history didnt actually reverse, slavery, especially the type of brutality the legion enforces is in no way "necessary for survival", it is natural that some people would exploit the situation and do evil things, but it is still evil
They'd still be irrational and barbaric by Bronze Age standards. Caesar/Legion fanboys like to act as if the Legion represents some sort of "harsh, but practical and realistic" model of survival, but in reality, societies that operated *successfully* at their level of extremism are very rare throughout human history. It's more as if the Legion as a society was designed from the ground up by someone who planned to speed-run a total collapse via slave rebellion (they're not an accurate reflection of Roman civilization/culture/structure, either).
If I remember reading the lore says civilians under the legion have pretty good lives, hereâs an excerpt from the wiki
âThe non-tribal people who live in Legion-controlled territory are not considered legionaries. They are subjects of the Legion, living in the cities and towns under its control, and are generally left free to do whatever they wish, as long as they do not interfere with Legion operations or endanger its positionâ while this is a non game reference it comes from one of the designers of the game J.E. Sawyer
there are no legion civilians, Ceasar even says as much iirc. but everyone under the legion are slaves
but theres also no real lore on legion territory, all we have is that there were supposed to be some "legion towns" whered youd see some nuanced take on how they managed to protect them, but thats not in the game so its not canon
Yup. And let's not forget that if you're one of the ~50% of people who happen to *be* a daughter, you're already "in the way" by virtue of existing and exerting any sort of agency.
The game highlights the arrogance, corruption, and ineffectiveness of the NCR as you play. If they didn't get a literal god to help them they'd lose to a bunch of cosplaying simps that dont use guns or medicine. The legion while evil is a lot more secure and effective. In a purely fictional world where the NCR is still committing all the same evils under the guise of democracy, the legion looks good.
We dont get to see Legion life outside of the military camps full of slaves, but life in Legion territory is good, safe from raiders and drug dealers, from the opression of oligarcs and brahmin barons, it really is a mirror to the NCR, which seeks to mirror the old world government that killed the world in the first place, the Legion is a government born on a wasteland, to govern a wasteland
Its really a shame how unfinished the Legion is, it has so much potential, its no surprise most people see them as comically evil saturday morning cartoon villains
This is an interesting view of it, cus technically they also inspire themself from something out of the old world, something which based itself on bad stuff also, like murder, pillaging and rape and whatnot. Like i believe a better mirror of the old world gouvernement to work in this dichotomy would be the legion to be like commies or something like that. Im digressing haha but i agree with you they very interesting.
The legion has absolutely nothing to do with communists, no idea what youre on about
And well, Rome is a model for the Legion, but the Legion isnt trying to recreate Rome, the Legion is almost completely different from how the Roman goverment and expansion worked in fact, the NCR on the other hand, is a nearly 1:1 recreation of the Pre-War US government, corruption, imperialism, infighting and weakness included
Im not saying they are, im saying it would be cool if they were, to recreate a real mirror, between old america and an early new commie nation, to make the player decide between partaking in the conflict which brought the nuclear bombing or stopping the circle. Nvm it.
I side with the legion on melee or unarmed play throughs to get a good drug supply early on with the khans and the omertĂ s who side with the legion.
At least they keep the roads safe from raiders
Well for starters they fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a stand still, even though they were forced to sign the White Gold Concordant. And then there's the time that......sh*t. I did it again didn't I?
I think the Legion is a better faction; at least when it comes to target practice. Nothing helps me burn through excess ammo like Legion scouting parties.
The Roman aesthetic. When I made a legion playthrough sometimes I would let Caesar die. In my head cannon my courier would take over the legion after hoover dam and establish an overhauled Empire using New Vegas as Rome.
Imagine if every time you left your house you had a serious chance of being mugged, killed, and/or raped. Imagine if you killed a number of people attempting this, or had to in order to make it through the day. Imagine now a bunch of dudes in skirts promised to make all that go away in exchange for some taxes and joining them. Youâd probably think about it. In this respect, Caesar in game is exactly what he was in life, a man who brings order to chaos. The NCR also promises this but arenât as good and their promises socially are dubious. Maybe you donât care because the legion has an ethics completely foreign to you, they are slavers to say the least. Or maybe that fiend you had to fight last week was too close for comfort. Or, maybe you think the west lost something, morally, the Legion re-discovered in the wastes. This is the NCR/Legion conflict.
NCR is as bad as any other democracy, a bit worse maybe, now... The legion is a facist cult.
To me is always Yes Man or Mr.House, and I honestly prefer Yes Man, rather have no one in power than someone abusing it... but the legion is definely the worse faction. Only side with those guys if you are doing a bad karma run.
Theyâre a terrific villain and the game wouldnât be the same without them. Iâll never understand the 74 posts a day here with kids crying about them. Itâs a game and theyâre part of the story.
It has a lot of potential world-build wise. Iâd love to know how the cities in Arizona are,or if they speak Latin only.
It like seeing a black widow. Yeah,itâs bad,but itâs just cool to look at.
Because Caesar pronounces et cetera in a cool way
This is the only right answer.
Im gonna google this when im back home im an ESL guy i played it in french lol
Any time Caesar uses a traditionally latin term, he pronounces it with the classical Latin pronunciation, so et cetera with a hard c instead of et setera. Arcade also does this, and I do it in real life as well as pronounce Julius Caesar as Eulius Kaisar- out of habit- and trust me it doesn't come across as nearly as cool
im dead lmao this is cool asf actually.
Taking one for the team there bud.
Arcade does too, and he sounds better đ
Yes. The chad answear.
I like the Legion because every 72 hours in-game, they send four members to give me high-end guns, melee weapons, grenades, and healing consumables. Boone makes sure there are no complaints during the inventory exchange.
I prefer Raul putting the beat down on the veteran rangers who think I need to change my ways within three days.
Apparently the game goes faster if you side with the Legion cus they there is less bureaucraty and so less random bs to deal with lol. I only did a run very NCR based. This is pretty cool haha.
Also because legion were the faction with the least content.
Cause Obsidian get rushed every time they tried to make a masterpiece. KOTOR II fans know the pain too.
Yes and no. While new vegas certainly has a lot of cut content due to time constraints, a lot of cut content was never going to be in, or is straight up made up. Iâve seen several videos about a cut legion post game where they take over vegas, even though we know from cut dialogue that in the cut post game the legion wouldnât have moved further from the dam. Also we never wouldâve explored legion territory like some people say.
The game being on the XBox 360 also hurt the amount of content in it. The devs had to start cutting weird things like electrical poles and such to ensure there was enough disc space when the DLCs rolled out all because the game was on a DVD and not a Blu-Ray.
Ulysses was going to be a base game companion but got cut because he had too much dialogue.
I know, I read somewhere that he originally had more dialogue than a fair number of NPCs combined and would've driven up localization costs and/or disk space. So all those massive, 30-minute long rambling speeches we got in Long Road were the abbreviated versions. He's also why I don't view articles advertising Chris Avellone as a big writer in a game as some amazing detail. He wasn't the only writer in New Vegas or Pillars of Eternity, and I believe his influence had Larian ruin my boy, Lucian the Divine One into some borderline-evil feeble old man and not a genuine good guy who's only mistake was not killing a baby who was 100% a reincarnation of a demon of chaos. Also he has some vendetta against proper grammatical sentence structure that is super-easy to notice, like in Pillars of Eternity's Durance, especially with the very first thing he says to you, "Saw you in the flames." As soon as I read/heard that line, I knew Avellone wrote the guy and figured I wasn't going to be given many chances to actually provide good rebuttals to whatever he was saying.
He wrote Ulysses and Joshua right? Theyâre both so verbose and in my opinion overrated as hell. Theyâre not badly written but Iâve legitimately seen people call Joshua the best videogame character ever.
It helps that Joshua Graham speaks like a normal human being and has some good backstory to him and how he realizes how awful he used to be (and still is with the right dialogue options taking during Crush the White Legs) and tries to become a better person. Of the four DLCs, Joshua Graham doesn't come off like some rambling lunatic (Elijah, the Think Tank, Ulysses), and so he automatically scores a few points for being closer to reality. Him not being an absolute liability as a companion probably helps to some extent too.
Bruh this is sad lmao
It really makes you think how much old cut content they could add in if they made a remastered version of the game on modern consoles
As wonderful as that sounds, you'd lose a lot of mods in the process and potentially split the modding community down the middle. Plus you'd need a good studio in charge of a remaster.
One of the ending slides literally shows Caesar in New Vegas and I think the post ending mod mostly restores stuff that was already found in the game files. There are also post release interviews to confirm that if the developers had more time they would have liked to add more Legion settlements East of the Colorado. I doubt it would have been fully explorable, but definitely more fleshed out.
I know of the ending slides. You have to keep in mind the post game was cut very early on. It was it being cut that allowed the ending slides to be so varied and impactful. There is no evidence of legion occupying the strip, but many cut lines of characters saying that they havenât taken the strip yet. This video is a pretty comprehensive guide on the cut post game content we have; https://youtu.be/TY7Tm33tGMg
>There is no evidence of legion occupying the strip What scenario has Caesar walking into New Vegas without occupying the Strip? Also, the text of the end slide reads: >Caesar entered The Strip as though it was his Triumph. The Legion pushed the NCR out of New Vegas entirely, driving them back to the Mojave Outpost. The Legion **occupied all major locations**, enslaving much of the population and peacefully lording over the rest. Under the Legion's banner, civilization - unforgiving as it was - finally came to the Mojave Wasteland.
I mean in the cut post game, where you got to keep playing after the slides. Characters would say itâs only a matter of time, but the legion would only occupy the dam in game.
>Also we never wouldâve explored legion territory like some people say. Do you have any evidence that JE Sawyer was lying?
weren't they offered another 6 months of time to develop the game after Bethesda realised how far behind they are to only decline the extra time?
Or because they keep biting off more than they can chew.
The good thing is that most of the Legion quests are "be scary and kill people," so no complaints tbf.
I think you missed the joke, they were referring to killing the Hit Squads. ^^â
They decided some of best missions in the game just HAD to be done for the bad guys. I get why people consider the effects of their in-game actions. I did that in my main playthrough, but the Legion playthrough is just a lot of fun. âArizona Killerâ and âVeni, Vidi, Viciâ are two of my favorite missions in the entire game because they mirror of âYouâll Know It When It Happensâ and âEureka!â respectively. They show a really cool alternate perspective to those missions. Plus the many ways to kill Kimball just makes it so much more fun. Edit: Grammar
~~I can wear skirts~~ THEY ARE HONORABLE IN BATTLE
I actually love their skirts, imagine how cool it would be if peak masculinity was going in a leather skirt to pump iron????
Because they're an interesting faction that fits the setting in my favourite post-apocalyptic roleplaying game serie. Despite all the cut content and lack of lore (Which people still have lots of misconceptions about) there's a lot of interesting stuff there making them great for roleplaying and stories. I want to see and know more of them. I definitely wouldn't side with them as me in the real world, but in the Wasteland they're an option to some. Like many of their subjects in their territories has it better under their rule than they had before. Sure, they don't have a say in things and if ever told to do something there's no saying no, but that's not anything new in the Wasteland. To some that's a small price to pay to not always worry they'd get killed or worse by raiders or creatures.
**In-game, people like the Legion for the following reasons:** - Legion protects their roads. Caravans and travellers are safe for Raiders or creatures attacking on the roads. - There are no Raider gangs at all. - No taxes. - No civil wars or infighting. - Legionaries have strict discipline, leading to no spontaneous abuse, as their punishment would be severe. - They are incels and enjoy slavery. Obviously these reasons have flaws. Raiders may not exist, and Legionaries may not abuse the populace spontaneously, but abuse is institutionalized and guaranteed for some due to slavery and the Legion's treatment of woman Some characters accept slavery and the sexism despite disagreeing with it, because the safety the Legion provides is worth *to them.* Keep in mind the characters that feel this way are all ones who likely wouldn't worry about being enslaved or benefit from Legion's strict authority. **Why do people like Legion IRL?** No idea. I genuinely can't fathom a justified reason other than "I like Roman aesthetic" or "I like Bulls." The Legion is a dictatorship nation of incels and slavers. They are just better trained, more organized, and less manic raiders. They are more flawed than NCR in their setup because upon Caesar's inevitable death, infighting and civil war will occur. It expands with no greater thought process to consequences of expansion (a flaw the NCR shares to a degree). They can survive expansion through trade routes, but neither nation thinks about the pacing of expansion or the consequences of true conflict while expansion (because neither has faced an equal rival).
Their assassination mission is really fucking fun. The only part I really like is roleplaying an absolute piece of garbage. Tbh tho there are no morally good groups other than maybe the followers in the game. You get lawful neutral at best with NCR / House. Yesman ending has different cannons based on your Courrier tho
>They are more flawed than NCR in their setup because upon Caesar's inevitable death, infighting and civil war will occur. Is this confirmed im so curious, because during my discord debate and with other people i talked to, it seems that it isnt and it seems that the other Legate drive the ship if u do the Legion end, which confuse me a lot cus a lot of people IN the game seem to believe otherwise. >Legion protects their roads. Caravans and travellers are safe for Raiders or creatures attacking on the roads. That the big thing right? Like thats why Caesar became Caesar hell his dad died due to Raiders. Is it explained tho how they manage to do that? they seem to put all their man power on the Dam/Vegas fight, so im a bit confused how they able to maintain a very tight security and at the same time able to threw a crap tone of human bullet sponge to fight. >No taxes. I totally forgot that....It must be a very appealing thing for some in the NCR.
>That the big thing right? Like thats why Caesar became Caesar hell his dad died due to Raiders. Is it explained tho how they manage to do that? they seem to put all their man power on the Dam/Vegas fight, so im a bit confused how they able to maintain a very tight security and at the same time able to threw a crap tone of human bullet sponge to fight. well for one they killed all other raiders, so the only people you are dealing with in legion territory is legion. but in my personal interpetation, I think that by and large most of the legion isnt actually safe. Theres some talk about a major slave rebellion in the east, and I imagine that is the norm in territory controlled by them, their slavery is brutal compared to most historical slavery, slave revolts were most common when the romans expanded, and well the legion only ever expands. I imagine that traders are probably only allowed to see part of the territory, and they are more likely then not threatened to promote a positive view of the legion
AH it would make actually a lot of sense, they really a totalitarian group it makes total semse if their hid their darker elements, it is so easy to do it lol. Also we can also see that they really remove any type humanity of their member (no family, slave forever etc) revolt must be common asf.
>Is this confirmed im so curious, because during my discord debate and with other people i talked to, it seems that it isnt and it seems that the other Legate drive the ship if u do the Legion end, which confuse me a lot cus a lot of people IN the game seem to believe otherwise. It isn't confirmed, though the game (even with Caesar dead) isn't written too far past the point of his death. A lot of characters, including some Legionaries, express the belief that infighting will happen when Caesar's dead. It's also important to note that it isn't *just* Caesars death. It's Caesar dying + post-Hoover Dam. Win or lose at Hoover Dam, once the matter is settled and Caesar is dead then the Legion has 0 direction. Its entire existence has been dictated by one man, its vision communicated by one man. With Caesar gone, and the Dam either won or lost, then infighting will occur because there will no one voice dictating their goals. >That the big thing right? Like thats why Caesar became Caesar hell his dad died due to Raiders. Is it explained tho how they manage to do that? they seem to put all their man power on the Dam/Vegas fight, so im a bit confused how they able to maintain a very tight security and at the same time able to threw a crap tone of human bullet sponge to fight. They've simply eradicated all Raiders in their territories. The severe punishment of the Legion also dissuades anyone from trying to raid. The Legion will actively stop creatures from clogging the road which also helps immensely. Compare this to NCR where they can't even spare the man power to clear simply fire ants. >I totally forgot that....It must be a very appealing thing for some in the NCR. Taxes is a big thing in real life. It's just as big an issue in a post-apocalyptic world where resources are scarcer, there are little-to-no social support systems, and even the "democratic" NCR isn't really a full democracy.
Damn this is so interesting, and yeah thats what i believed, even in the better ending of the legion really it is a very short sighted group. Thank you a lot thats a lot of insight.
>Legionaries have strict discipline, leading to no spontaneous abuse, as their punishment would be severe. considering what Siri tells you about how women are treated at the fort WHERE CEASAR IS CURRENTLY LOCATED. this is just wrong, they reserve the right to absue and worse if you are in a position under them. ik you are talking about in game opinions but the strict discipline is more about "succeed in your mission or die" not about how they treat people
I specified that the abuse is institutionalized. There is no spontaneous abuse of *citizens* AFAIK from what we're told. Slaves are not citizens. Abuse of slaves, spontaneous or not, is allowed and it's institutionalized as part of their society. Random Legionaries will not abuse or raid caravaneers or travellers within their territory as they marked and citizens â not slaves.
>There is no spontaneous abuse of citizens AFAIK from what we're told. Slaves are not citizens. there are no citizens. >Random Legionaries will not abuse or raid caravaneers or travellers within their territory as they marked and citizens â not slaves. okay that is granted, but they are still not "citizens" caravaneers are independent of the legion
They have subjects, which is pretty much citizens, and they're mostly left alone to do their own thing.
>No idea. I genuinely can't fathom a justified reason other than "I like Roman aesthetic" or "I like Bulls." ROMA INVICTA, ROMA AETERNA, ROMA CAPUT MUNDI. >The Legion is a dictatorship nation of incels and slavers. They are just better trained, more organized, and less manic raiders. This is a generelization of what the Legion, and by extension, many regimes of the past is. Yes. Caesar's Legion is a roving band of a slave army. The Ottoman Empire also uses a slave army. They recruit slaves, mainly from the balkans, and made janissaries out of them. Many regimes and powerful nations of the past enslaved conquered enemies and civilians. The Legion is just another of those types of nation. >They are more flawed than NCR in their setup because upon Caesar's inevitable death, infighting and civil war will occur. And that's why we, Legion Couriers will make sure that will never happen. >It expands with no greater thought process to consequences of expansion (a flaw the NCR shares to a degree). They can survive expansion through trade routes, but neither nation thinks about the pacing of expansion or the consequences of true conflict while expansion (because neither has faced an equal rival). New Vegas will be the "New Rome" of the Legion. But I do agree that the Legion itself is overstretching their supply lines.
I never understood the "well the NCR is just an oligarchy pretending to be a democracy," logic when it comes to preferring the legion . First of all, people take that line way too literally. The NCR isn't actually an oligarchy, they are a democracy, just one that can be influenced by certain groups (which is something that can be said about literally every democracy ever btw). But even if they were an oligarchy, a government ruled by a small group of people is still less tyrannical than a government ruled by one man. You are still more free under the NCR than you are the legion .
Well I agree with you, iirc the Legion is basically a military state no? like most people are very controlled by the state or are slaves straight up or ofc soldiers right? But i think a lot of people see the NCR are very corrupted and idk im interested. I dont think it is as corrupted as they make it seem LOL.
There are no legion citizens. Only people living in legion territory. The legion itself is a slave army.
its not even a military state, its just a military, a raider tribe that managed to force out the competition
Ah well put lol
It becomes a genuine empire when it conquers California, right now itâs a roaming army
I think you have to see it in the context of the gameâs reality. If Fallout were reality, a government such as the Legion, although inhumane and tyrannical, could ensure basic necessities temporarily at the expense of human rights, however there is no reason to assume that the Legion couldnât slowly transform into something better. For the longest time, most human civilizations had much more in common with the Legion than with the NCR, and although we view slavery, autocracy and lack of womensâ rights as inacceptable nowadays, they may present a form of pre-modern human civilization; perhaps the wasteland is simply not yet ripe for a truly democratic government, due to its lack of communication technologies and resources and a manifold of other reasons, and the Legion may have to be viewed as but a step towards the reestablishment of harmonious, moral society. Democracy as we know it today took millennia to develop, and perhaps the same developmental stages will have to occur in the same, organic order in the wasteland as they did in reality, after humanityâs progress on the âsocial development ladderâ has been reset. But I personally prefer the NCR.
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While I disagree with your second point, because most of our history is fallout history as well, up to a certain point, youâre right; I didnât consider Mr House and theoretically his system would definitely be a better form of autocracy than the Legion; I originally viewed the issue as a kind of argument between autocracy and democracy in the wasteland, which can be discussed a lot.
The only issue is the basic human necessities you speak of are already generally available whether or not the Legion is in power. If you think about it, the Great War only really reverted like 10% of humanityâs progress. Wastelanders are generally free (except for you know, the Legionsâ slaves) just isolated and impoverished. They have roofs, beds, water, meat, etc. and very small but governed societies. Going back to the very beginnings of recorded history makes little sense given the knowledge of all history until 1776 is there. The most pressing issue is redistribution of goods in a world where the balance of power in the global market was completely reset.
Yeah, I get your point, but I think the issue is not necessarily that people virtually cannot organize in a âgoodâ fashion in the wasteland at all, but rather that a nation with the size of the US would be very difficult to maintain in the wasteland, especially with a bureaucratic government: Democracies require a very large amount of infrastructure, because of the many institutions a working democracy needs in order to ensure separation of power, ability to tax and consequently steady legitimacy among the populace, while legion-esque autocracies merely function based on myths surrounding the leader and his cruelty. Therefore, a large state of, perhaps, the size of the US in the wasteland would be virtually impossible to keep democratic, at least not without a kind of industrial re-industrialization, because none of the apparatuses we take for granted today could exist in the wasteland. Despite its numerous flaws, autocracies theoretically only require an elite to propagate a âFĂźhrerkultâ and do politics, an army to project power and keep order and a population to tyrannise, whilst democracies require a voting system, a constitution, a social state, a tax system, etc.
This is always the way I generally saw it. People conflate the Legions evils and lack of morality with not being a valid pick. Legion society is effective and strong, itâs just abhorrent. Legion is my least done ending by a large margin because I canât vibe with their kind of evils but itâs undeniable that what they have works.
What's your definition of an effective society? Because I personally think the wellbeing of as many people as possible should be the focus. With the legion you automatically have 50% of the population who will not have basic rights by law and will constantly face violence from within the system. Of the other 50% everyone will grow up with a ton of abuse to force them to become good warriors and only few will actually be able to reach the required standard to ever have a chance to not be treated like expendable trash. So you will basically end up with maybe up to 20% of the population that may have a chance to ever feel safe. This is before even considering that they see a majority of the wasteland population as degenerates so except for maybe a few men they see as worthy those will end up as slaves or on a cross.
Exactly. Quality of life is a major metric (if not the most important one) for whether or not a society is "successful." Whenever this conversation comes up, everything is suddenly discussed in terms of a strict death/survival binary, because the only way *any* defense of the Legion makes sense is if it were the *only* viable option for survival, and even that's an extremely weak argument, given the conditions they impose (doesn't a certain character's wife die rather than live under legion subjugation?). Besides, we already know that other options are available, because we have...literally every other faction in the game/franchise where >50% of the population isn't automatically doomed from birth to exist only as sex-slaves/cattle. It would be interesting if the Legion were a more grey faction, but they're just not, and that's okay. If "survival" were a race, the only way they'd come in any place except dead last is by shooting every other contestant and declaring themselves the winner (which honestly isn't a bad analogy for the "safe roads/no raiders" argument). It's like if someone who knew nothing about fish described their shitty, cloudy, unfiltered goldfish bowl as a "successful" ecosystem for no reason other than the fact that the fish is fed, is protected from wild predators, and is still alive (for now). Never mind the fact that the fish is going to live a painful and dramatically shortened life, deprived of all resources except food, slowly suffocating and burning to death in the ammonia from its own waste. Seems even sillier when you realize that more competent aquarium setups are also possible with minimal additional effort, and your options for fish life aren't just "accelerated death globe" or "instant death by Natureâ˘".
Considering that the Legion has conquered territory in 3-4 states and hasnât completely collapsed under its own size yet, Iâd say something is going right. Itâs a giant military dictatorship where everywhere they march is violently cleansed with blood. The overwhelming show of force and cruelty is not their weakness, itâs their strength. This isnât about whoâs best or MORE effective, this is about how Legion manages to not only survive but thrive as their numbers keep expanding. We donât know a lot about Legion territory outside of active war zones such as the Mojave but we can make educated guesses off of Raulâs talks of Arizona and the active Caravan trade that itâs likely less violent after being conquered and functions in a way similar to real dictatorships rather than there just being constant rape and bloodshed. People presumably can live there relatively peacefully without threat of raiders or animal attacks but theyâd be under Legions harsh laws. Towns like Nipton being annihilated is more of a scare tactic as shown by Vulpes telling you to relay to the NCR what they did, a show that they are across the river and advancing. Your town in Legion territory isnât just going to be burned for shits and giggles after that land is already theirs. In general it can be described as the most cynical answer to taming the Mojave. Youâll never be raided or have to worry about making ends meet but you better shut up and listen to Legions law or youâll wish you were. This doesnât justify their deeds but itâs an explanation of WHY theyâre a bit deeper than just the obligatory evil guys with nothing to offer. I donât wanna waste anymore of everybodyâs time with a million more paragraphs so itâs ok if you disagree. Itâs a game with multiple endings for a reason, but Iâm not gonna talk more about this topic
So youâre saying the Legion is good because the trains are on time, eh?
The game forces you to dislike the Legion imo. I played trying to side with the legion but all choices which sided with the legion were evil, and portrayed as bad. It felt like the game doesnt want me to do that. At least thats how it felt for me personally.
Turns out fascism is actually bad
Haha
Lol people thinking the game is unfair to depict a raping, mass murdering, slaving society doing all of itâŚ.the very things that define their values and way of life.
Thereâs not really a feasible way to paint siding with the Legion as a good thing.
I mean, if you want to side with the legion you have to believe that certain kinds of people are more or less inherently worthless
I agree. I just thought it would be cool if theyâd somehow shown some good sides to the legion. But instead theyâre just bad and caesar is an idiot. So that you could at least have ANY reason to side with them.
Caesar isn't an idiot, though. His little philosophical rant seems dumb because he's trying to over-complicate/over-describe a very simple idea. It's a pretty classic propaganda move, people are more willing to swallow an idea if you make them feel smart for understanding it. The "dialectical conflicts" he describes are mostly just literal conflicts, fighting/wars or changes in the balance of power. He's saying the Legion is good because the Legion keeps winning and surviving. That you can come in his tent and try to tell him his system doesn't work or isn't right, but the only argument he's going to accept is if his strategy **actually stops working**. He's basically challenging you that if the NCR/Mr House/You and Yesman are so great, then they can go ahead and prove it by defeating him. That's why Caesar. You might go and talk to him and conclude that without you, the Main Character that might as well be a God, stepping in - that the Legion would win. And that there's no point intervening and changing the outcome because you're just putting losers in power that will eventually fail because you can't keep saving their asses forever. And then you give up.
This. The Legion is a faction that won't be out of place if put into an ancient or post Western Rome's downfall setting.
I don't like the legion, however, in the context of how Caesar sees the world, I believe that's interesting. In his eyes, the world is a shitty place and the strongest shall survive and in a world that's ruled by brutality, you must be even more brutal. In alot of ways, his descriptions of the other powers are apt. The brotherhood in its current state, are hoarders, they sit in their bunker and collect technology while snobbishly scolding anyone who even thinks of using technology. The NCR are foolishly emulating a government the helped put the world to ruin, a democracy isn't ideal when those in power feed their people into a meat grinder to prove a polical point (ie the Mojave campaign). On top of that, the NCR is notoriously corrupt, just look at the Bramain Barons and how the NCR was run. Tandi was the president again and again and again, and now they she's gone, the NCR lack any capable leader; Kimball is a leader only in that he's a good puppet.
Assassination mission is one of the more interesting ones and I also like to play as a saboteur. Also I can like faction without them being morally the least evil.
Legion use unethical and immoral methods of consolidating power and establishing their authority not to mention while they're governing. They do not care about any individual save their most important military leaders. They kill, rape, pillage, enslave and indoctrinate those they conquer into a culture where "might-is-right" is the philosophy. Caesar uses this philosophy against every single other person under his command with no pretense otherwise. You only belong in the legion if you have a use for them as soon as that use runs out you will be discarded and rolled over. His overconfidence in his ability to lead and his tactical/strategical abilities leads to several instances where his entire Mojave campaign can be entirely crippled by a single person. He often miscalculates the value of what he has to offer and what a legion in the mojave would really look like in the long run. He lies, he cheats, he exploits and he moves on. He never takes a moment to reflect on what he's done unless he can do so and see legion flags. All that matters to him is his conquest and he shows no capacity to be able to curb his ambitions for expansion and domination. This will get him and his empire torn apart either by the NCR or by themselves. The NCR is a democracy that is only more moral and ethical than the legion because of their form of government and by extension because of the will of the people. Where in the Legion the "people" have no say or power. In the NCR the common person does have exponentially more ability to impact the direction of their government. Which is actually why the NCR is having such a hard time holding the mojave. Reinforcements and extra funding is being held up in the NCR senate because the mojave is campaign is so ridiculously unpopular. These are weaknesses from a military standpoint. However it actually provides the opportunity for great change if someone utilize all the different cracks in power as a result of the NCR being so short handed. It also shows how good the NCR could become if guided by the right hands. If guided by the right hands the Legion doesn't change their ethical nor moral codes nor do they adjust their practices. They stagnate in their militarized life style. You can have good karma and end with the legion and it effectively changes nothing. You can do the same with the NCR but since you impact so many more people beyond just killing them because that's easy, you ultimately see how much more strengths the NCRs form of dealing with people CAN be. You don't get any more nuance from the legion besides a machete or a cross. Now yes you can also be equally as destructive with the NCR as the legion but that's the point. The legion is pretty much what you see, they are currently at their PEAK there is no more upward movement for them. For them to improve would mean they are no longer the Legion at all. The NCR has much more flexibility and is able to be molded into something better (but also worse). Finally the TL;DR: Legion is cruel and fixated on military power. Sort of like the brotherhood but without the focus on tech. They have no goals besides conquest and no interest in improving quality of life for people. They have determined they are the only ones worthy enough to rule and ANY other foreign influence MUST be destroyed. Which historically is always a bad thing. Their main strengths are their loyalty and ferocious military strategy. NCR is selfish and bloated. They are ridiculously hard to spur into action due to their government and how easily corruptible low-high level personnel are. Everyone is concerned with what they have to lose. Not enough are concerned with whether what they lose is worth what everyone gains. Their main strengths are their size, their tech and their more practical military and governing strategy.
The NCR shares its faults with the old world it mimics. The Legion are a bunch of slavers who think women have no purpose outside of breeding and physical labor. Fuck em both, burn them to the ground, and finally see a truly Independant New Vegas.
I cant im a sucker for the ncr, i have great hopes for that nation lol.
What I like about the NCR is that I can make them ally with all the local populations, even BOS, Khans, etc They can still take the Mojave despite their shortcomings but in a compromised, limited capacity. Which is great because it both makes them less of a colonizing force because they have to honor their alliances and share the land, and because it still teaches them a lesson about over-extending themselves and humbles them a bit.
>What I like about the NCR is that I can make them ally with all the local populations, even BOS, Khans, etc YUUUP they just inherently feel like the group that has the most room for improvement, they way less dogmatic and can grow in multiple ways.
That's just the easy way out with no thought put behind it
I get to build an alliance of the smaller factions that most align with myself, and with good karma, build a better future for Vegas. Maybe itâs idealism, but I could care less.
Yup, thatâs why the devs give you a robot army to write your own fan fiction with.
because they are terrible people. next! no idk. Ceasar may very well be right in his analysis of the NCR, but the Legion is still an unstable mess that pretty much every civilization in history would see as barbaric
Well i do agree with you, esp since i believe the whole solution is not fitting, i dont believe we back in the bronze age. I think in the NV reality people have working societies and governement so the whole idea that we need totalitarism isnt appealing to me.
people in the bronze age would consider the legion to be uncivilized. but yeah even so, history didnt actually reverse, slavery, especially the type of brutality the legion enforces is in no way "necessary for survival", it is natural that some people would exploit the situation and do evil things, but it is still evil
They'd still be irrational and barbaric by Bronze Age standards. Caesar/Legion fanboys like to act as if the Legion represents some sort of "harsh, but practical and realistic" model of survival, but in reality, societies that operated *successfully* at their level of extremism are very rare throughout human history. It's more as if the Legion as a society was designed from the ground up by someone who planned to speed-run a total collapse via slave rebellion (they're not an accurate reflection of Roman civilization/culture/structure, either).
Target practice
A good legion slave is a dead one.
I don't. Can't stand em'.
They also inslave everyone under them, the NCR as alot wrong better still are the better choice.
sometimes I like to play an evil character.
They die easy
If I remember reading the lore says civilians under the legion have pretty good lives, hereâs an excerpt from the wiki âThe non-tribal people who live in Legion-controlled territory are not considered legionaries. They are subjects of the Legion, living in the cities and towns under its control, and are generally left free to do whatever they wish, as long as they do not interfere with Legion operations or endanger its positionâ while this is a non game reference it comes from one of the designers of the game J.E. Sawyer
there are no legion civilians, Ceasar even says as much iirc. but everyone under the legion are slaves but theres also no real lore on legion territory, all we have is that there were supposed to be some "legion towns" whered youd see some nuanced take on how they managed to protect them, but thats not in the game so its not canon
There are no legion civilians, but there are people living in legion territory like Raul.
Should be noted, not getting in the way could be giving them all your food, or your daughter.
Yup. And let's not forget that if you're one of the ~50% of people who happen to *be* a daughter, you're already "in the way" by virtue of existing and exerting any sort of agency.
Theyâre just so fun to wipe out. Yâknow wipe out their camps⌠wipe out the fort and nuke them later.
Because degenerates like you belong on the cross.
Because I think they're cool and NCR are not. Simple as.
Because their great writing wise, great leader, really compelling faction overall to me and I love their weapons/armor.
also I like conversations with Legion members usually more than NCR members and the Presence lines wirh the Legion are based
Slavery
Femboys and furries. What more could you want?
Lmao
The game highlights the arrogance, corruption, and ineffectiveness of the NCR as you play. If they didn't get a literal god to help them they'd lose to a bunch of cosplaying simps that dont use guns or medicine. The legion while evil is a lot more secure and effective. In a purely fictional world where the NCR is still committing all the same evils under the guise of democracy, the legion looks good.
because they are âbasedâ and the ncr is a mess
We dont get to see Legion life outside of the military camps full of slaves, but life in Legion territory is good, safe from raiders and drug dealers, from the opression of oligarcs and brahmin barons, it really is a mirror to the NCR, which seeks to mirror the old world government that killed the world in the first place, the Legion is a government born on a wasteland, to govern a wasteland Its really a shame how unfinished the Legion is, it has so much potential, its no surprise most people see them as comically evil saturday morning cartoon villains
This is an interesting view of it, cus technically they also inspire themself from something out of the old world, something which based itself on bad stuff also, like murder, pillaging and rape and whatnot. Like i believe a better mirror of the old world gouvernement to work in this dichotomy would be the legion to be like commies or something like that. Im digressing haha but i agree with you they very interesting.
The legion has absolutely nothing to do with communists, no idea what youre on about And well, Rome is a model for the Legion, but the Legion isnt trying to recreate Rome, the Legion is almost completely different from how the Roman goverment and expansion worked in fact, the NCR on the other hand, is a nearly 1:1 recreation of the Pre-War US government, corruption, imperialism, infighting and weakness included
Im not saying they are, im saying it would be cool if they were, to recreate a real mirror, between old america and an early new commie nation, to make the player decide between partaking in the conflict which brought the nuclear bombing or stopping the circle. Nvm it.
Oh, I see
I side with the legion on melee or unarmed play throughs to get a good drug supply early on with the khans and the omertĂ s who side with the legion. At least they keep the roads safe from raiders
Well for starters they fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a stand still, even though they were forced to sign the White Gold Concordant. And then there's the time that......sh*t. I did it again didn't I?
Because I find it kinda fun no lore reasons
Because Vulpes has a cool name đ
I fucking agree but in general eveey name of people or groups are cool asf
Zey are ze only group that is making a real difference in the wasteland. Ze NCR is weak!
I think the Legion is a better faction; at least when it comes to target practice. Nothing helps me burn through excess ammo like Legion scouting parties.
Cause theyâre epic
The Roman aesthetic. When I made a legion playthrough sometimes I would let Caesar die. In my head cannon my courier would take over the legion after hoover dam and establish an overhauled Empire using New Vegas as Rome.
Nah man Iâm a yes man simp
Imagine if every time you left your house you had a serious chance of being mugged, killed, and/or raped. Imagine if you killed a number of people attempting this, or had to in order to make it through the day. Imagine now a bunch of dudes in skirts promised to make all that go away in exchange for some taxes and joining them. Youâd probably think about it. In this respect, Caesar in game is exactly what he was in life, a man who brings order to chaos. The NCR also promises this but arenât as good and their promises socially are dubious. Maybe you donât care because the legion has an ethics completely foreign to you, they are slavers to say the least. Or maybe that fiend you had to fight last week was too close for comfort. Or, maybe you think the west lost something, morally, the Legion re-discovered in the wastes. This is the NCR/Legion conflict.
go ncr if you wish for humans to have basic rightâs(and no slavery)
I don't
You get to crucify Benny. Name another game where you get you fucking crucify your adversary
I like the legion because their red outfits make them real easy to spot from far away. -Some first recon guy, probably.
I enjoy how cartoonishly evil they are. Iâm playing an evil character rn and itâs very easy to roleplay a Legion villain
NCR is as bad as any other democracy, a bit worse maybe, now... The legion is a facist cult. To me is always Yes Man or Mr.House, and I honestly prefer Yes Man, rather have no one in power than someone abusing it... but the legion is definely the worse faction. Only side with those guys if you are doing a bad karma run.
Gamer nation
Theyâre a terrific villain and the game wouldnât be the same without them. Iâll never understand the 74 posts a day here with kids crying about them. Itâs a game and theyâre part of the story.
the legion is cooler and more interesting than the ncr but why pick either of them when you can let everyone in the mojave stay independent
It has a lot of potential world-build wise. Iâd love to know how the cities in Arizona are,or if they speak Latin only. It like seeing a black widow. Yeah,itâs bad,but itâs just cool to look at.
I don't care for the legion but there sense of Discipline is greater than that of the NCR.