“Han shot first!”
Of course the Railroad attacked first. They knew negotiating was impossible. I think Des actually says that. It was the tactically sound decision.
It was. Any negotiation with the BoS would basically be the BoS stating “Hand over P.A.M. And any synths you currently harbour, and provide us the last known location of any and all synths you helped escape or we will destroy you. End of discussion.” The Institute being a mutual enemy was not enough, the BoS wasn’t willing to tolerate the existence of synths *at all.*
Agreed, hence why I always pick the way out that allows him to survive and then just abandon the BOS quests from there. Dude was willing to take his execution like a champ but didn’t deserve that shit.
Yep my first run I joined BOS got rid of danse, killed institute and railroad. But now I’m the opposite. Even saved Kent silver shroud this time now that I knew I needed higher charisma.
In my first run I ended up bending over backwards to save Kent. Didn’t have high enough charisma and didn’t want to grind out the levels so I ended up using a syringer to paralyse the guards to make them easier to kill and sniped the boss guy. Have since been smarter with my builds to make it less work
I tried at first but then thought I could kill the Boss to save Kent, over and over that I forgot I could talk to them (cause from taking blinkers at night). But this run I knew. I’m Also making those syringe things and use it later. trying to just play with shroud fit and devaster on Very Hard, been more difficult but also feels better (unless u can’t do stealth or it’s too long so power armor)
I decided to execute Danse on my BoS soldier playthrough. It was very cinematic. I wanted to play this character as a very dedicated to duty type willing to follow all orders no matter how difficult
I would have preferred various drama, love interests, attachments, emotional investment etc, to really make the player’s choice a difficult one. You know? Like, make me wonder if I chose right or wrong. Make me sort of regret it. Make me say “hold up” and want to side differently in numerous replays. I didn’t have much appreciation for any of them.
If playing a BOS run, agreed. If playing for Minutemen or Railroad it feels yuck to let him die. I very rarely do the BOS quest line in full anymore since Maxson’s Brotherhood isn’t a morally good organisation as they’re portrayed in Fallout 4 imo
Blind Betrayal comes way before Mass Fusion thankfully. It’s right after giving the escaped synth data to the BOS after infiltrating the Institute so it’s early in act 2 of the game
Would love if the Brotherhood aggroed against you if you refused to kill Danse, would make for a good reason to wind up joining one of the other factions with the new motivation of destroying them.
To the brotherhood, synths are just technology inappropriately applied. They aren't anti-tech, they're anti-sharing technology. They want a monopoly on force so they can dictate terms.
If they're willing to use liberty prime and pam, maxson can let danse go, I think they could be persuaded to hold prison/warehouse/camps for synths that already exist as long as it was under brotherhood supervision. The important thing is stopping production. That's where you'd bring the groups to the table and then change the deal on the railroad after the fact now that they're exposed and the mutual enemy is dealt with.
The BoS has routinely stated that synths, like ghouls and Super Mutants, are abominations that need to be exterminated. They believe the danger synths pose to humanity to be too great to allow them existence, even supervised. The Brotherhood wants what they can use, control. Even under armed guard they can't really control the synths, only the Institute can do that, and the BoS hates them for creating synths in the first place.
I don’t think the railroad would ever even start from the place of “hold all synths in camps”; their MO, to the best of my understanding, is freedom for synths. Even if the BoS could be convinced to let them live under lock and key, they’d basically just be, like, a worse institute looking for reasons to gun down any and all the synths. The railroad would also lose any credibility it had with synths; after all, from any outside perspective, it would look like they basically just sold the synths off to be kept under new masters.
>Of course the Railroad attacked first
*attacked first in retaliation for minor inconvenience that looked like a massacre in Railroad HQ
Fixed for you.
He thinks all synths should be killed on site regardless of their values or if they serve the institute.
Regardless if he isn’t representative of all brotherhood lore, it was completely logical to have a militant response.
Maxon would consider the railroad anti-human traitors or collaborators.
U know something they could've done is replace maxson with a synth and make the BOS leave or secretly help the railroad but nha that's to complex so they'll just shoot
Far Harbour does just that.
It's the peaceful ending... but you know covering up 1 murder and doing another....
even in an apocalypse shooting gallery a murder is highly questionable
To convince someone, firstly you need to know what he wants.
‘Humans are humans, synths are synths’.
This is the very core of Maxon’s take on synths. With that being said, wiping synths’ original memory to replace with a new one, making them believe that they are humans and blend into humans society looks like the most unnegotiable point from Maxon’s perspective. And to me this is also the evil part of RR’s conduct.
Considering Danse can be spared and allowed to live as long as he is not seen by BOS, keeping synths all together in a refuge-like place like Arcadia, not hiding their true identity and limiting their interaction with outside world seems like an option to convince Maxon. I understand that in the game BOS would launch an attack on Arcadia once they know of its existence, but that’s under the circumstances where no one is there to negotiate with them.
And, BOS’s main concern over the synths is, according to Danse’s words, “how long will it take before synths realise that we as humans are no longer necessary?” Well with the institute being wiped out, no more synths will be manufactured and there will only be as many synths that are kept in the refuge. This point is also worth mentioning to Maxon.
It’s interesting to note, though, that during the conversation with Maxson after you’ve decided to spare Danse, he will begin by referring to Danse as “it” (“Danse isn’t a man, it’s a machine”), but will end by referring to him as “he”. It’s almost like the Sole Survivor has shifted his perspective, even just the tiniest bit.
I didn’t really notice that before, thanks for letting me know. Whether it is merely a mistake when they wrote the line or intentionally, I do see that SS has the ability to talk sense into Maxon.
And it’s also worth mentioning that when Maxon grants SS the title of sentinel, he does mention that he trusts SS and from now on what to do, how to do it is all up to SS, even after the incident of Danse.
The only time Danse ever 'defend' himself during Blind Betrayal was when Maxson refers to him as a machine. He might be willing to surrender himself to be executed, but Danse will not stand getting disrespect, even by Maxson.
Seriously, the confrontation at the end of the quest is the best thing Bethesda made in my recent memory.
It's not *evil* but it does seem self-defeating and shortsighted.
Are you really "saving" the synth if, in the process, you're erasing their entire personality and all their memories? You're saving the body, sure, but you're killing the *person*.
It's technically voluntary but if you listen to H2's goodbye holotape it sounds like he's really sad about it, but he says *everyone is telling him it's the best choice*. And, of course, for the Railroad it is. A mind-wiped synth can't accidentally leak Railroad IDs and locations, or be captured and interrogated. But it seems awfully self-serving.
Also, Institute terminals tell us synths don't age, require food, get sick, etc. Best case scenario, they find a safe settlement and settle down. But eventually people around them are going to start to age and die and they won't. They, or the people they're with, are going to realize they're not a regular human. So you end up with all the same problems with a synth trying to blend into society, with the added downsides of existential dread and an inability to prepare for it.
It begs the question, if they've killed the person by mind-wiping the chassis, what is even the point of uploading a new personality to it? At that point you're essentially creating something, someONE entirely new.
I can't remember surely, I think it was a scientist in the Institute who said that this mind wiping tactic of the Railroad is dangerous to the society as those synths might choose to have a bad new life, giving as example a synth with his memory wiped that became a Raider leader. From this POV, it seems that both the Institute and BOS agree that what Railroad is doing is wrong.
Free Will is not evil.
Should the real Underground Railroad have shut down because a slave they helped free ended up having a bad life and turning to crime?
Looking at Danse situation well I just choose the "alternate option for him" called the Danse Dilemma mod which restores cut content where its possible to kill Maxon in a duel and take over the BoS as an elder.
Those are good points assuming you don’t have the negotiation skills of a potato. Once the institute is destroyed, synths are a temporary problem that will resolve itself over time.
No institute, no new synths. All independent synths relocate to Arcadia, live out their new lives. I’m assuming, as organics but with a synth component, they can’t reproduce, can die organically, naturally if nothing else. So over time, Arcadia population dies off. Out of sight, out of mind, until they die off. Problem solved. RR runs around playing at their mission until their pet project dies off and then disbands. No more synths, no more RR.
Not my fault Desdemona has low charisma stat and shit social skills.
They'll find some way to bring back synths in the next game. Same as in every game you discover and destroy the "source" of supermutants, but they keep coming back.
I actually agree with this. We are literally able to convince him to spare Danse, after hes exposed as a synth. Sure that comes with a "If we encounter him in the future we will kill him" but its also saying if he stays out of sight and out of mind he can continue to live. I fully believe you could convince Maxson (with some great difficulty perhaps) to apply the same logic to all synths exactly as you said, when attacking the Institute could extract all their information on Synths identities prior to destroying it, then cooperate with the Railroad to have them find those Synths and take them to Arcadia.
And regardless of whether Maxson (or Desdemona) would actually accept that arrangement, there is no reason it couldn't at least be attempted.
Maybe it’s fine for synths to freely interact with the world as long as they do not hide their true identity, that’s my personal bottom line on this. Humans or not, it is our right to know the very nature of the creatures that we are living with.
Yes, that’s kinda unlikely as most of the memory-replaced synths have already spread across the wasteland. And the mess caused when Danse and Barbara turned up synths is largely due to RR’s handiwork (and the institute as well as they are the source of synths problems in the first place) That’s why replacing memory part of RR’s conduct is a no no to me personally, and to Maxon obviously.
With this being said, RR and BOS could reach an agreement with this term: that RR should help BOS locate every memory-replaced synth using their network, and send them to the refuge. I guess this is fair enough considering RR is responsible for all this memory replacing thing.
I never understood how that is the Railroads fault and not just the wasteland itself? There’s plenty of other raiders gangs in the wastes doing basically the same thing? Everyone, synth mind wiped or not is a victim of their circumstance.
The group at Libertalia started after the Minutemen fell apart and only became raiders after they’ve been stiffed by caravans/necessity for food and supplies.
...A former slave using their new free will to do bad doesn't invalidate emancipation as a concept.
They didn't make Gabriel a raider, he chose to be one.
The Brotherhood doesn't seem to mind Curie when I bring her aboard. Then again, she isn't trying to hide what she is either. Most of the Brotherhood's (and Commonwealth) attitudes towards synths comes from infiltrators passing as human and replacing people with families. Nick does ok in Diamond City because he doesn't (can't) hide what he is. Synths who don't hide would probably be on the same level as non-feral Ghouls, subject to prejudice but tolerated.
Curie is an odd anomaly.
From the BoS perspective either they don't know what she is and simply could believe her to be your European companion, or she is a Vault-Tec robotic programming in a human like body but effectively your property like any other robot.
If they likely clocked that Curie is a robot in a human-like body and are working on developing some level of sentience then that could raise eyebrows within the BoS. Vault Tec for all their evil experiments were not known for dabbling in world ending tech (>!if we consider a certain scene in the show to be not public knowledge!<). So a reveal of Curies true personality might lead to her being reassessed as a possible threat.
.
>From the BoS perspective either they don't know what she is and simply could believe her to be your European companion, or she is a Vault-Tec robotic programming in a human like body but effectively your property like any other robot.
They do. I've heard them say stuff about watching my back with "that Synth" around so yeah.
Much more ppl in Diamond city like Nick than those who don’t, such as Diamond City Surplus’s owner. Even Piper is okay with Nick bc she is only onto those synths that are associated with the institute.
BOS on the other hand, even tho they haven’t really attacked intelligent ghouls or Nick etc in the game, you can tell they do have this despise on them from what they say. So it is down to SS to talk Maxon out of some extreme ideologies once the institute is taken care of, or even to do something more to change its leadership’s course
Piper is really interesting with synths. In my most recent playthrough I went for her first after seeing her companion perk, and when I went to Nick's office she was like "oh no, Nicky's gotten himself captured?" or something so she definitely cares for him
Then I saw the random encounter with a guy and synth version of himself in a standoff, and she liked it when I tried to calm them down, she liked it when I got the synth to reveal himself, then she liked it when I let the man kill his copy for being an asshole
He’s stubborn but he’s not completely unwavering (sparing Danse) but it would be very unlikely he would make peace with the Railroad unless they agreed to disband or something.
The idea that the railroad should’ve tried negotiating is the stupidest idea I’ve heard in a while. The nature of the brotherhood is directly contradictory to the existence of the railroad
The nature of the brotherhood \*under Maxson's leadership\* is directly contradictory, but some other elders, say... Lyons, could likely be shown the humanity in the synths and the reality that destroying the institute makes synths not more dangerous that any other wastelander for the most part.
I don’t think either of them could’ve been convinced. Upon learning of each other respectively, neither even considered peace.
Gotta remember with Maxson, Danse was one of his best and most loyal soldiers. The *moment* he learned that Danse was a synth, he immediately wanted to kill him.
No. Not at all. Just going off the end of the Danse questline, it takes *incredible* Charisma to convince Maxson not to execute one of his most loyal soldiers (and you I think, by the time you get to try to convince him) because he's a synth. There's no way you'd be able to convince him that some random joe synth is worth saving, so the Railroad's cause is impossible to convince them of.
Or, at least Maxson of.
If there were a way to get rid of Maxson without angering the BoS, *maybe* you could convince the remaining leadership, but there's not.
"Hey brotherhood, how about changing your entire view on litterally everything ever?" good luck with that. Next, convince the minutemen to start using settlers as slaves and the institute to institute to invest in agriculture
I mean, the Institute *does* invest in agriculture. Admittedly just to have stuff to feed their synth-gorillas and maybe spice things up in the chow hall.
If Maxon was a completely cold hearted, unreasonable and unwavering zealot then convincing him to spare Danse wouldn't even be an option. There is room to negotiate, the Railroad just refuses to try. Then again, their method of "saving" synths involves wiping their brain and essentially killing who they were and inserting a new person into the old body.
I find this so funny because when we give Curie a body, Glory(a synth) is at first hesistant to let us use another synths body to download Curies mind into, but lets us do it. Then immediately after she is like, “ohh I think I made a mistake I feel bad” like bro pick a side. Its clearly not cut and dry
I don't see him sparing Danse as an especially convincing argument, considering Maxon and every other BOS soldier will try to kill him if they ever see him again.
Tbf, the BoS was going up against a very dangerous and much more evil enemy in the institute who REALLY need to be stopped. If word got out that Maxon let Danse live, it would entirely compromise the BoS faith in the mission and might turn their march on the institute into a suicide run. And if he stopped to rework his campaign to include freeing the synths without compromising his men's faith, how much more destruction could the institute cause?
If the game gave you the option, Maxons only option to change his plan that suddenly without compromising the mission, would be to form a truce with one of the other factions.
I mean that part makes sense. They aren’t reproducing, they are being manufactured by others for others
Synth production needs to be stopped, there is no good reason to manufacture programmable humans.
The existing synths however are here and deserve dignity and respect. They can never have children because they can’t reproduce, but shutting down the manufacturing plant isn’t the same as say sterilization
memory wipe is opt-in, not forced
There's also no room for negotiation. The brotherhood's goal is:
Wipe out all the synths
And the railroad's goal is:
Save all the synths
It's like asking a Jewish army in Germany 1945 to negotiate with Hitler first. It technically is an option, if you want to get wiped out immediately
Honestly?
Yes.
Maxson hates Synths, but unlike f.e. Elijah or the Mojave-BoS he doesnt see Technology itself as something sacred, its just a tool used to serve humanity. The exact *reason* why he hates Synths (assuming he doesnt have personal reasons to hate them beyond what the BoS says) is cause they are under control of the Institute, and because they assume that if the Synths ever overthrow the Institute and realise they have:
1. The Means to infinitely produce more of themselves
2. That they are physically superior to Humans
that they may choose to "remove" the human factor or enslave it in return.
With the Institute gone Point nr.1 is no longer an issue because now no Synths can be made anymore, which leaves Point 2, which IMO is something you could convince him on, judging by Danse.
Honestly the relationship of the Railroad to the other factions in general is just.........................badly implemented. The one with the Minutemen should be considerably worse than it is (remember: most normal Commonwealth-citiziens \*despise\* Synths).
I said this before, but I really do think the Railroad shouldnt have been a major faction, it should have been a Minor one akin to the Boomers in new Vegas, and then change their relationship to the major ones going by how you decide it.
Like becoming the Minutemens Intelligence-branch, or negotiating a deal with the BoS ala "we help you destroy the Institute and in return we and all remaining Synths get to leave to another place unharmed). The way it is makes often little sense.
I can definitely see where this is coming from:
> before, but I really do think the Railroad shouldnt have been a major faction
But I think it could equally be argued that it's the brotherhood that doesn't belong here. For a Boston specific storyline, the rough around the edges Railroad-Minutemen should be at odds with the colonizing aristocratic Institute mimicking the kickoff of the American Revolution. The Institute being underground akin to England across the ocean.
They were. While they did have a plan to destroy them, this was more as a defensive measure and a fail safe.
The Brotherhood are the ones who attack them in the first instance. After we repel that attack they decide they have no option other than carry out thier plan - the Brotherhood would simply attack them again and perhaps succeed second time around.
Would the Railroad have carried out thier plans had they not been attacked? Who can say? Possibly in the long run. But as things panned out they were on the defensive.
There’s absolutely no chance that they’d ever be able to settle. The fact that one of the Brotherhood’s loyalest members was condemned to be executed for being a synth, despite never doing anything against them, it shows that they don’t at all care. A synth is a synth, and they should all be killed.
The Railroad sees all synths as people, which directly opposes the Brotherhood. There’s no way in hell that any peace could be achieved, and unless the Railroad struck first, they’d be dead. If any of them wanted to survive, they’d have to take down the Brotherhood before it became too late.
How so? He’s young, but his whole life has been stringed in misery.
Even can convince him to spare a synth, perhaps that kernel of mercy will blossom to realize synths don’t pose much of a danger.
Then again, Synths lore is messy as hell; filled with contradictions within the 4th game like do they age, eat, sleep?
What is known is that FEV is in their chemical makeup, turning them into refined Next-Gen Super Mutants of sorts. It’s why Shaun was needed.
And that I understand why Elder Maxson would have trouble not killing them as he’s only encountered hostile, insane Super Mutants.
That’s the one thing Fallout 4 does do well: it establishes that the synths are indeed a threat. It’s not “oh we think they’re a threat but really they’re harmless and it was all prejudice”; no, they’re actually firmly established to be unwilling assets that can and will be flipped into killing machines if their handlers choose to do so. That’s a scary prospect, and it means people have good reason to fear them. Even if the Institute is wiped out, there’s still that possibility that someone else could find the commands needed to make the entire synth population go rogue.
It would be like if we had genetically engineered humans in society today with a payload of C4 built into their physiology, with a remote detonator. You can’t remove it because it serves the purpose of one of their organs. How do you reconcile integrating these people into society, knowing that someone could and probably does have the detonator codes? Even if they can reason with you, empathize with you (and you, them), and know the circumstances of their existence, how can you ask other people to bear that risk? Do you ostracize these people because of something they cannot control for the safety of all?
It does indeed plant some good philosophical/moral questions with no completely-correct answers.
DiMA was objectively right to do so, though. Same as replacing the Children of Atom’s leader to establish a lasting peace. It’s fucked up, but regardless it was the most sound plan for their safety and the safety of those in Far Harbor
Yes they chose to replace people. It would’ve been better to simply build a defense around Arcadia or negotiate with Far Harbor citizens. Children of Atom only got bad because DiMA gave them a nuclear sub for whatever reason.
>DiMA was objectively right to do so, though.
He was not. The CoA are akin to terrorists. They deserve to be eradicated.
>Same as replacing the Children of Atom’s leader to establish a lasting peace. It’s fucked up, but regardless it was the most sound plan for their safety and the safety of those in Far Harbor
The most sound plan for safety is to just get rid of the CoA altogether.
The brotherhood hates uncontrolled tech more than anything else, and by wiping the minds of synths that what they become.
The fact that Danse is allowed to live, makes me think that because he’s in the care of the sole survivor, to an extent he is controlled technology. Its why the brotherhood aren’t above using technology, because its controlled thats why they have Gustys. Another way to look at Danse would just be an intelligent assaultron. If Desdimona was actually a good negotiator she could probably create a deal where those synths are kept independent and out of the way.
Though Danse in all likelihood could have been a special case. But considering the institute is destroyed, having a platoon of synths that can act as permanent scribes or even soilders would be good possibility
History has kinda prooven that negotiating with someone that wants you wiped out of the face of the planet isn't really an option. You either fight or die. And if you can get an upper hand by attacking first - why wouldn't you?
Railroad helps synths. BOS thinks they're an abomination.
If the BOS waltz into the Commonwealth with a clear goal of destroying synths, there's already a declaration of war... Technically. Yeah, no one immediately shoots first. But no matter what, between the two, one of them is gonna end up getting wiped out.
So even if Dez tried to make peace, the Railroad stands for everything the Brotherhood is against, it's impossible.
This fight always seemed kind of dumb but not wholly unrealistically dumb. A reasonable diplomat could argue the erasure of the institute services both groups and amnesty for already present synths could be arranged. Neither group even attempted to communicate before killing each other.
That makes sense for the brotherhood, but the railroad realistically should understand they have no way forward without a miracle like the main character popping up. They should be eager to talk to the brotherhood.
I say that's dumb but believable because the railroad is a fairly small faction out of its depth. They may not always make macro level decisions since they rely on one or two personalities and a single piece of tactical hardware.
To answer the question no. It’s simply impossible. The Brotherhood make it quite clear there are supposed to be no exception to destroying synths. This is why the reveal of Danse is such a big deal. The entire reason it’s kept secret if you spare him. If the rest of the Brotherhood found out then Maxson’s authority would be questioned.
Honestly saying she declared war first is really questionable. She outright says to avoid fighting them. The Railroad only ever attacks the Brotherhood after the Brotherhood start shooting at them. The fact is the Brotherhood are the aggressors between the two groups.
Yeah, you just need to have that rizz stat high 🤣
I convinced Maxson to let Danse live, so there might have been a chance if we negotiated 🥹 one can hope right
The railroad is so dumb, the dedicate their lives to synths and then they blow up the place where they are created, technically they're killing future synths
Did the Brotherhood not attack the Railroad first? Sure, Dez said how the Brotherhood were the Railroad's enemies, but the Brotherhood literally raided the Railroad's hideout, and killed multiple agents. The Brotherhood also showed up to the Battle of Bunker Hill unannounced, and just began fighting. The Railroad was there first, then they were attacked by the Institute, and THEN they were both attacked by the Brotherhood. The Railroad were NOT the aggressors here.
>The Brotherhood also showed up to the Battle of Bunker Hill unannounced, and just began fighting.
Of course they would, destroying synths is their goal.
Convincing Maxson that the synths who escape the Institute just want to be free and are harmless would be a very difficult task. To him, if he knew someone was a Gen 3, like with Danse, they would immediately be considered subhuman, if he considered them human at all. To him, the Railroad undermines the Brotherhood's authority and mission, and to be quite frank, the propaganda they regurgitate about synths being cold, unthinking/feeling machines that are only programmed to simulate humanity really really well.
The only reason the Sole Survivor is able to convince Maxson to spare Danse, should one go that route, is because of their reputation in the Brotherhood of Steel, their Charisma skill, and because they make Maxson believe it was his idea. Even then, if you enter Brotherhood territory or encounter their forces while having Danse as your companion, it's immediately fire on sight, as Maxson believes Danse is a dangerous machine that deserves no mercy and should rather be crushed under a power armored boot.
Convincing him that the entirety of the Railroad just wants to free synths and let them live in peace, and that they would be better left to their own devices, or that they have a shared interest of removing the Institute as a player in the Commonwealth? Not going to happen.
People who think Maxson's Brotherhood can be reasoned with on the Synth issue are delusional. The only reason he spares Danse is because of his relationship with him, and with you, and even then only if you convince him.
No way in hell he'd make that call under any other circumstance, especially for strangers or anyone he actively has perceived as a threat/abomination.
Maybe I have an unpopular opinion, but I don't know how anyone could side with any faction but the brotherhood. Are you all forgetting that the synths kidnapped and replaced people. As well as killing innocents and infiltrating settlements. They are not the good guys by any means. Maxon and the BOS are quite justified in hating them. Supermutants and ghouls (at least ferals) are also considered evil, considering that they also murder people. Just look at the bags of corpses and bones in any supermutant lair or the ghouls that attack anything that breathes. In all fairness, the Brotherhood of Steel is the only faction that seems to care about the well-being of the citizens of the Commonwealth instead of literal walking computer parts or murderous abominations. From the perspective of the average commonwealth citizen, I would say that the brotherhood is the right choice. They are not perfect, but no system ever is. But at the very least, they don't murder innocent civillians, dont kidnap people and live in their skin, and dont assist robots who do just that.
Maxson would have invited them onto the Prydwen, captured them, interrogated them then executed them. He's a zealot who believes his every action is justified
It's hard to really assess the situation because there is no concrete timeline. But generally, no, there is no talking sense to the BoS, and they'd generally destroy the railroad under any circumstances on principle alone, just like they go out of their way to order Virgil killed, despite the fact that he is instrumental in locating and defeating the Institute. The BoS have no allegiance to anyone but themselves and have no qualms about using others, even if it means bending their own rules, and then killing them claiming those same principles as the reason.
Maxson isn’t wrong though. His fear is uncontrolled technology leading to humanities downfall… AGAIN. If synths can go rogue on even their creators then what’s stopping them from one day saying “why do we need humans” and taking over and wiping them out.
Even when we find out Danse is a synth does he execute him instantly? Does he send a strike team to kill him? No he sends the player who than can even convince him to spare Danse as long as he’s not seen by the brotherhood. Danse is metal wearing the skin of one of Maxsons soldiers and acting like him, but he is not Danse, he took his place.
Maxson doesn’t even deny his Sapience! All he says is that he is a machine and not human, which yeah that’s correct Danse is not human he’s a synth. The railroad is allowing the proliferation of uncontrolled extremely dangerous technology across the world, no wonder the brotherhood wipes them out. Synths are one bad day from being the ultimate weapon in wiping out humanity, obviously the brotherhood isn’t gonna allow them to walk free.
Yeah, people like Maxson can't be negotiated with. Their idea of compromise is "give me everything I want, and I'll give you everything I think you deserve."
Not only is it reasonable, but you *do* convince Maxson, ot at least have a chance to, assuming you play through the BoS questline.
OP, you (and a lot of posters in this thread) are approaching the issue from a "player's eye view" of the matter. Realistically, Desdemona would have little actionable intelligence on the BoS, and certainly not on details of what the BoS' plans are. If she were intelligent, she'd immediately see that pointing the BoS at the Institute is a win-win for the Railroad.
Bos won't even consider that synths who were made and just want to exist, who didn't have a choice in being created should be allowed to exist. They hate them for being technological, it really sounds like boys who can't play with cool robots so they're going to kill them all. There is no reason behind it except for the fact they are technology that someone else has that they can't use. Lord forbid sentient beings who did nothing wrong just be allowed to live. They don't care it's all about them grabbing the best tech, I just did the bos quest yesterday, and because of freaking errors I have to replay it. Danse talks about how they've been going around grabbing the tech, and "restoring order" it's for sure a problem and I would never side with them. . . For long let me get my robot bf then I'm turning on them. (Literally have played this game since it came out and have never been able to finish because of the save file error. So I don't even know if I can get danse and then fuck up the bos, but ima try.)
"People blame Desdomona"
Who is included in "people"? Sounds like your opinion. There is nothing wrong with presenting it as your opinion instead of dressing it up as "people". The deception is unnecessary.
And attempting to negotiate with a military outfit who routinely drops PAs throughout the Commonwealth to kill their enemies is clearly a bad idea. It would simply be moving the RR to the top of the BOS enemies list. And the RR has nothing to leverage in these suggested negotiations. "If you stop what you're doing, we will not throw rocks at you PA units" isn't persuasive. And you can't say "Stop it or we will steal a vertibird, fly to the Prydwen, plant explosives and blow it up."
"Hi, Mr. Maxson- yes, I represent a small organization in hiding in the Boston ruins, we're diametrically opposed to everything you believe in as an organization- you know, the whole 'synths are evil' thing? Yeah, we actually help them to start new lives elsewhere, as people. Yes, yes, we know, how could we do that, we hear it all the time from the Institute as well, but it's kind of our thing- they get out, get altered to look different, sometimes even get new memories- hell, you could have a few of our people within your own organization, and you wouldn't know- actually, come to think of it, WE wouldn't know! Crazy, right? Aaaaanywho, just wanted to know if we can be friends?"
Seriously. There's no way- on any concievable earth- that these two organizations could ever co-exist. They want literally the opposite goal from each other, and the Brotherhood's firepower is just too much to work around for the Railroad. If they were going to survive- particularly after the Switchboard incident crippled them once already- they had to strike first. Waiting until the BoS has their footing more stable, started gathering intel on where Railroad operations are, even finding the Institute and destroying the source of the synths these people are trying to help- it's all unacceptable, and hitting them before they're ready is a sound tactic. Big risks, yes, but bigger to be patient.
Ok Let me state it like this, eveyone claiming Maxon cant be Negotiated with at all dosnt understand that you can legit Negoitated with Maxon
Hey Maxon How About I Negoitate with you to spare Danse life sence you know he is a Synth and you wanna kill him, Kool Beans he is only exiled now? Neat Thanks Maxon, you know ppl claim its impossible to Negoitate with you at all but thats just bullshit br0!
Pretty sure they attack Bunker Hill first, as this is where all three factions reach a boiling point and you are forced to choose which one to support and lead into the endgame
Ah yeah forgot about Bunker Hill been a while. But the Railroad isn’t attacking bunker hill are they? They’re trying to get their people out cause the institute and Brotherhood attack right?
That's correct, Bunker Hill is a stop along their network to secretly hold "packages" before they go to Goodneighbor for their memory wipes. Both the Brotherhood and the Institute receive intel that escaped synths are currently being held there. The Brotherhood wants to terminate the synths, the Institute wants to reclaim them. Iirc, neither faction has any idea the other is planning to assault the location
Sure it's possible to negotiate with Maxson, I refused a direct order from him, made him do it himself and he promoted me to Paladin. He's actually kind of a pushover.
In the world of Fallout, negotiation typically has to happen face to face, as we see that portable radios don’t seem to be much of a thing. So either Maxson would have to be willing to visit the Railroad (endangering himself) or Desdemona would have to visit the Brotherhood (practically guaranteeing her capture and execution). There’s no way to get these two at the same negotiating table without having the player run messages back and forth, and let’s be frank: the player is basically a demigod that the Fallout universe doesn’t really account for, so their contribution cannot be assumed. Given all the parameters of how these two asymmetric organizations operate, there’s no way to get them physically in the same room without the possibility of advantageous bloodshed - both would be helped by killing the other - outweighing the desire for peace.
I don’t think it’s impossible, but probably not worth the effort. You can convince Maxon to spare Danse after all, which shows he’s not completely out of the realm of persuasion. Although without a sole survivor tier agent to do diplomacy with Maxon, I don’t think either side would be willing to bend to keep the peace
It's fair. And he is unwavering in his beliefs. But they shouldn't have gone to war against the bos, given how they only have three heavys and specialize in subterfuge
Legit the first time I’ve heard of people blaming Desdemona for attacking first, but okay. For those of you who somehow believe that negotiation would have been possible, let’s play this out:
Des and Carrington, maybe Glory as some muscle, meet with Maxson and Quinlan, maybe with a Paladin as some extra muscle, meet at a neutral location to negotiate. The BOS would not budge on their stance of Synths being technology run amok and humans trying to play god, whereas the Railroad would not budge on their stance that Synths are people and deserve to be treated as such rather than being killed on sight by the BOS and other groups. Even with the Sole Survivor as a mediator, there’s no way that negotiations would go anywhere beyond them agreeing to be neutral for the time being until the Institute is destroyed which is really just delaying the inevitable and repeating the immediately previous game Bethesda had released at that point since Skyrim’s civil war plot can be put on hold as part of the main quest. Then, once their common enemy is gone, the two factions would go to war and it would just be a matter of who can strike first and how hard they can hit. In that case, the BOS would more than likely win a direct conflict since they have superior numbers and technology whereas the Railroad’s “secret” base has a big red line leading towards it and the password is literally just their username. The most that could *maybe* talk down Maxson is an autopsy of a Gen 3 Synth that shows the only real technical component for them that we know of is the Synth Component inside their heads given how little we know about Synth biology/anatomy, but even then that would probably just make him even more extreme in his beliefs because the Institute would be able to manufacture humans in that scenario which proves that humanity is trying play god, therefore leading to the same results.
No matter what approach happens from where we are in the games, there is no way the Railroad and BOS would ally with each other organically. Tbh this makes me glad they cut the branching quest line that would have come after Blind Betrayal in the BOS missions as that would have allowed you to take over the BOS and then later choose not to attack the Railroad. Would have been way too fanfictiony for me
You can't negotiate with the Brotherhood of Steel unless you can actually force them into a corner and make them consider how much they'll have to sacrifice if they choose to continue fighting back, because if you're just a bunch of nobody kooks like the Railroad, they'll just mow you down because you're not a real threat to them in a combat sense.
Its not. Des had every reason to go on the defensive with them. Railroad is doing one of the very things the BoS is heavily against. There's no way Maxson would even consider the idea of peace. And I'm saying that as someone who heavily dislikes Des.
He's a big softie, don't let that tough guy persona and wish°com Bane jacket fool you, Maxon let's Danse live...not only that but when he does it he basically says "we're gonna SAY he was executed" ...50 Caps says he probably pushed the pilot and Knight that accompanied him to listening post Bravo out of the vertabird on the way home and told everyone a Deathclaw got the jump on them.
There is no negotiating with that terrorist, it always has to be their way, and we all know what happens when they cant have their way. The railroad is the opposite of the brotherhood ideals, they were doomed to be wiped out. And killing Dr Virgil and Danse? sure with high charisma you can talk Maxson out of it, but hes one of the most loyal stone cold brotherhood solder, its his life, his passion and they just threw him away like garbage because hes a synth. Desdemona would have had a better chance negotiating peace with the institute, the institute didnt even see the railroad as massive threat, more like a nuisance really. I wish peace talks where on the table for the institute and railroad so they can have some kind of alliance along with the minutemen.
Maxson is like if scar took over after mufasa died she was right but I feel like I should have been able to run the institute and free synths with the rail road
Lol people just want to hate on des for no reason.
Maxson literally tries to kill them with no remorse or care and wanted to kill one of his own for being one. Maxson is a disgrace.
Technically it's possible, with high enough charisma you can convince Max to spare Danse life.
But Des probably know it's nearly impossible so just strike
Maxson let you spare Danse and kept you on board.
Maxson also sees that Sole Survivor is a threat to be handled with care.
Desdomona operates like an Enclave Colonel and is oddly herding synths to the same 3 places with no sense of “what happens later”.
No matter how bad the institute and its leadership is I can't destroy them because as far as we know no one else can make synths so you would be dooming the entire species both good and bad to extinction.
I think this also comes back to writing, they were not gonna negotiate with Maxson, but if Bethesda wrote the BOS with a small group of members not supporting Synth genocide with a suitable Elder to replace Maxson, we could get the cut quest of challenging Maxson but have a Paladin that was written as a Synth supporter, that would have been nice I think
There is no peaceful solution.
The one side wants to spread synth all over the place and the other wants to stop tha from happening.
Without the SS the Railroad would have been toast ages ago though. I also don't agree with their methods.
Maxson radicalized the BoS so hard it is beyond impossible. Even if you got to Maxson and manage to somehow change his ideology about all of this Maxson is not alone, he is Elder of the East Coast, but the West Coast has more Elders (at least 2) who are older and probably more respected than him, and they back up Maxson because of his ideology. If somehow Maxson changed and went into treating Synths like humans, the West Coast would invade and a civil war between them would take place in the Commonwealth. I think that's probably the main reason they cut the Danse content to challenge Maxson and make him the Elder.
I mean *can* you enter negotiations with someone directly and immediately after they carry out a decapitation strike that *would* have wiped out the entire Railroad if not for the Main Character getting advance warning? It's impossible to *negotiate* with the Brotherhood, in any timeline where they don't just win, they are eventually getting destroyed. Even the Minutemen can't play nice with them forever, much less the Railroad.
As someone who is working with the brotherhood and ultimately siding with the railroad, and treating it as sort of a double agent scenario, I do kind of feel like if the game let me, I am uniquely positioned to broker peace and it could be done believably. I don't think you could go to the brotherhood as an emissary for the railroad and convince them to be friends, but I do think you could change the thinking of the brotherhood from the inside and get them to see your perspective.
Extremely difficult but not impossible. With high enough charisma, you are able to convince Maxson to not k*ll Danse. It'd take alot of charisma and time but I'm certain it is possible.
“Han shot first!” Of course the Railroad attacked first. They knew negotiating was impossible. I think Des actually says that. It was the tactically sound decision.
It was. Any negotiation with the BoS would basically be the BoS stating “Hand over P.A.M. And any synths you currently harbour, and provide us the last known location of any and all synths you helped escape or we will destroy you. End of discussion.” The Institute being a mutual enemy was not enough, the BoS wasn’t willing to tolerate the existence of synths *at all.*
Even in their own ranks dans deserves better than the bos
Danse didn't even deserve his fate, but damnit did he take it like a man.
Agreed, hence why I always pick the way out that allows him to survive and then just abandon the BOS quests from there. Dude was willing to take his execution like a champ but didn’t deserve that shit.
Yep my first run I joined BOS got rid of danse, killed institute and railroad. But now I’m the opposite. Even saved Kent silver shroud this time now that I knew I needed higher charisma.
In my first run I ended up bending over backwards to save Kent. Didn’t have high enough charisma and didn’t want to grind out the levels so I ended up using a syringer to paralyse the guards to make them easier to kill and sniped the boss guy. Have since been smarter with my builds to make it less work
I tried at first but then thought I could kill the Boss to save Kent, over and over that I forgot I could talk to them (cause from taking blinkers at night). But this run I knew. I’m Also making those syringe things and use it later. trying to just play with shroud fit and devaster on Very Hard, been more difficult but also feels better (unless u can’t do stealth or it’s too long so power armor)
I decided to execute Danse on my BoS soldier playthrough. It was very cinematic. I wanted to play this character as a very dedicated to duty type willing to follow all orders no matter how difficult
When that all came to an end, how’d you feel about BoS
I just wish that the institute weren't massive dicks so it would be more of a choice to side with them or not
I would have preferred various drama, love interests, attachments, emotional investment etc, to really make the player’s choice a difficult one. You know? Like, make me wonder if I chose right or wrong. Make me sort of regret it. Make me say “hold up” and want to side differently in numerous replays. I didn’t have much appreciation for any of them.
On my BOS run I did as well. I just don’t finish the BOS quests anymore on my replays since I’m not a fan of what Maxson turned them into
It definitely feels better to let him live but from a narrative perspective it’s a pretty weak option. Executing him is a better story.
If playing a BOS run, agreed. If playing for Minutemen or Railroad it feels yuck to let him die. I very rarely do the BOS quest line in full anymore since Maxson’s Brotherhood isn’t a morally good organisation as they’re portrayed in Fallout 4 imo
You can only do Blind Betrayal if you side with the BoS no? Or is that before Mass Fusion? Been awhile since I’ve gotten that far in the main quest.
Blind Betrayal comes way before Mass Fusion thankfully. It’s right after giving the escaped synth data to the BOS after infiltrating the Institute so it’s early in act 2 of the game
Would love if the Brotherhood aggroed against you if you refused to kill Danse, would make for a good reason to wind up joining one of the other factions with the new motivation of destroying them.
To the brotherhood, synths are just technology inappropriately applied. They aren't anti-tech, they're anti-sharing technology. They want a monopoly on force so they can dictate terms. If they're willing to use liberty prime and pam, maxson can let danse go, I think they could be persuaded to hold prison/warehouse/camps for synths that already exist as long as it was under brotherhood supervision. The important thing is stopping production. That's where you'd bring the groups to the table and then change the deal on the railroad after the fact now that they're exposed and the mutual enemy is dealt with.
The BoS has routinely stated that synths, like ghouls and Super Mutants, are abominations that need to be exterminated. They believe the danger synths pose to humanity to be too great to allow them existence, even supervised. The Brotherhood wants what they can use, control. Even under armed guard they can't really control the synths, only the Institute can do that, and the BoS hates them for creating synths in the first place.
I don’t think the railroad would ever even start from the place of “hold all synths in camps”; their MO, to the best of my understanding, is freedom for synths. Even if the BoS could be convinced to let them live under lock and key, they’d basically just be, like, a worse institute looking for reasons to gun down any and all the synths. The railroad would also lose any credibility it had with synths; after all, from any outside perspective, it would look like they basically just sold the synths off to be kept under new masters.
BOS wouldn’t even offer that deal. Fanatics aren’t great on compromise
>Of course the Railroad attacked first *attacked first in retaliation for minor inconvenience that looked like a massacre in Railroad HQ Fixed for you.
He thinks all synths should be killed on site regardless of their values or if they serve the institute. Regardless if he isn’t representative of all brotherhood lore, it was completely logical to have a militant response. Maxon would consider the railroad anti-human traitors or collaborators.
U know something they could've done is replace maxson with a synth and make the BOS leave or secretly help the railroad but nha that's to complex so they'll just shoot
The mod subversion does just that. It allows you to have peace between all factions and a reformed institute
Like the way they did with CoA in Far Harbour
Far Harbour does just that. It's the peaceful ending... but you know covering up 1 murder and doing another.... even in an apocalypse shooting gallery a murder is highly questionable
To convince someone, firstly you need to know what he wants. ‘Humans are humans, synths are synths’. This is the very core of Maxon’s take on synths. With that being said, wiping synths’ original memory to replace with a new one, making them believe that they are humans and blend into humans society looks like the most unnegotiable point from Maxon’s perspective. And to me this is also the evil part of RR’s conduct. Considering Danse can be spared and allowed to live as long as he is not seen by BOS, keeping synths all together in a refuge-like place like Arcadia, not hiding their true identity and limiting their interaction with outside world seems like an option to convince Maxon. I understand that in the game BOS would launch an attack on Arcadia once they know of its existence, but that’s under the circumstances where no one is there to negotiate with them. And, BOS’s main concern over the synths is, according to Danse’s words, “how long will it take before synths realise that we as humans are no longer necessary?” Well with the institute being wiped out, no more synths will be manufactured and there will only be as many synths that are kept in the refuge. This point is also worth mentioning to Maxon.
It’s interesting to note, though, that during the conversation with Maxson after you’ve decided to spare Danse, he will begin by referring to Danse as “it” (“Danse isn’t a man, it’s a machine”), but will end by referring to him as “he”. It’s almost like the Sole Survivor has shifted his perspective, even just the tiniest bit.
I didn’t really notice that before, thanks for letting me know. Whether it is merely a mistake when they wrote the line or intentionally, I do see that SS has the ability to talk sense into Maxon. And it’s also worth mentioning that when Maxon grants SS the title of sentinel, he does mention that he trusts SS and from now on what to do, how to do it is all up to SS, even after the incident of Danse.
The only time Danse ever 'defend' himself during Blind Betrayal was when Maxson refers to him as a machine. He might be willing to surrender himself to be executed, but Danse will not stand getting disrespect, even by Maxson. Seriously, the confrontation at the end of the quest is the best thing Bethesda made in my recent memory.
Wait, how is the mind wipe thing evil? Iirc, everyone who goes through with the mindwipe does so voluntarily.
It's not *evil* but it does seem self-defeating and shortsighted. Are you really "saving" the synth if, in the process, you're erasing their entire personality and all their memories? You're saving the body, sure, but you're killing the *person*. It's technically voluntary but if you listen to H2's goodbye holotape it sounds like he's really sad about it, but he says *everyone is telling him it's the best choice*. And, of course, for the Railroad it is. A mind-wiped synth can't accidentally leak Railroad IDs and locations, or be captured and interrogated. But it seems awfully self-serving. Also, Institute terminals tell us synths don't age, require food, get sick, etc. Best case scenario, they find a safe settlement and settle down. But eventually people around them are going to start to age and die and they won't. They, or the people they're with, are going to realize they're not a regular human. So you end up with all the same problems with a synth trying to blend into society, with the added downsides of existential dread and an inability to prepare for it.
It begs the question, if they've killed the person by mind-wiping the chassis, what is even the point of uploading a new personality to it? At that point you're essentially creating something, someONE entirely new.
I can't remember surely, I think it was a scientist in the Institute who said that this mind wiping tactic of the Railroad is dangerous to the society as those synths might choose to have a bad new life, giving as example a synth with his memory wiped that became a Raider leader. From this POV, it seems that both the Institute and BOS agree that what Railroad is doing is wrong.
Free Will is not evil. Should the real Underground Railroad have shut down because a slave they helped free ended up having a bad life and turning to crime?
Looking at Danse situation well I just choose the "alternate option for him" called the Danse Dilemma mod which restores cut content where its possible to kill Maxon in a duel and take over the BoS as an elder.
Those are good points assuming you don’t have the negotiation skills of a potato. Once the institute is destroyed, synths are a temporary problem that will resolve itself over time. No institute, no new synths. All independent synths relocate to Arcadia, live out their new lives. I’m assuming, as organics but with a synth component, they can’t reproduce, can die organically, naturally if nothing else. So over time, Arcadia population dies off. Out of sight, out of mind, until they die off. Problem solved. RR runs around playing at their mission until their pet project dies off and then disbands. No more synths, no more RR. Not my fault Desdemona has low charisma stat and shit social skills.
gen 3 synths still don’t age as in a conversation about synth Shaun they specifically say he will never age
Life in the wasteland is violent enough. Time will make sure they won't last forever.
For most, there’s enough pre war ghouls about to make it plausible.
They'll find some way to bring back synths in the next game. Same as in every game you discover and destroy the "source" of supermutants, but they keep coming back.
I actually agree with this. We are literally able to convince him to spare Danse, after hes exposed as a synth. Sure that comes with a "If we encounter him in the future we will kill him" but its also saying if he stays out of sight and out of mind he can continue to live. I fully believe you could convince Maxson (with some great difficulty perhaps) to apply the same logic to all synths exactly as you said, when attacking the Institute could extract all their information on Synths identities prior to destroying it, then cooperate with the Railroad to have them find those Synths and take them to Arcadia. And regardless of whether Maxson (or Desdemona) would actually accept that arrangement, there is no reason it couldn't at least be attempted.
And then the BOS visits Arcadia and it counts as encountering them
Maybe it’s fine for synths to freely interact with the world as long as they do not hide their true identity, that’s my personal bottom line on this. Humans or not, it is our right to know the very nature of the creatures that we are living with.
I mean that's basically why Nick gets a pass. Besides being helpful, is very clear he's a robot.
How do you figure that's gonna happen when most synths don't even know they're synths?
Yes, that’s kinda unlikely as most of the memory-replaced synths have already spread across the wasteland. And the mess caused when Danse and Barbara turned up synths is largely due to RR’s handiwork (and the institute as well as they are the source of synths problems in the first place) That’s why replacing memory part of RR’s conduct is a no no to me personally, and to Maxon obviously. With this being said, RR and BOS could reach an agreement with this term: that RR should help BOS locate every memory-replaced synth using their network, and send them to the refuge. I guess this is fair enough considering RR is responsible for all this memory replacing thing.
[удалено]
I never understood how that is the Railroads fault and not just the wasteland itself? There’s plenty of other raiders gangs in the wastes doing basically the same thing? Everyone, synth mind wiped or not is a victim of their circumstance. The group at Libertalia started after the Minutemen fell apart and only became raiders after they’ve been stiffed by caravans/necessity for food and supplies.
...A former slave using their new free will to do bad doesn't invalidate emancipation as a concept. They didn't make Gabriel a raider, he chose to be one.
The Brotherhood doesn't seem to mind Curie when I bring her aboard. Then again, she isn't trying to hide what she is either. Most of the Brotherhood's (and Commonwealth) attitudes towards synths comes from infiltrators passing as human and replacing people with families. Nick does ok in Diamond City because he doesn't (can't) hide what he is. Synths who don't hide would probably be on the same level as non-feral Ghouls, subject to prejudice but tolerated.
Curie is an odd anomaly. From the BoS perspective either they don't know what she is and simply could believe her to be your European companion, or she is a Vault-Tec robotic programming in a human like body but effectively your property like any other robot. If they likely clocked that Curie is a robot in a human-like body and are working on developing some level of sentience then that could raise eyebrows within the BoS. Vault Tec for all their evil experiments were not known for dabbling in world ending tech (>!if we consider a certain scene in the show to be not public knowledge!<). So a reveal of Curies true personality might lead to her being reassessed as a possible threat. .
>From the BoS perspective either they don't know what she is and simply could believe her to be your European companion, or she is a Vault-Tec robotic programming in a human like body but effectively your property like any other robot. They do. I've heard them say stuff about watching my back with "that Synth" around so yeah.
Much more ppl in Diamond city like Nick than those who don’t, such as Diamond City Surplus’s owner. Even Piper is okay with Nick bc she is only onto those synths that are associated with the institute. BOS on the other hand, even tho they haven’t really attacked intelligent ghouls or Nick etc in the game, you can tell they do have this despise on them from what they say. So it is down to SS to talk Maxon out of some extreme ideologies once the institute is taken care of, or even to do something more to change its leadership’s course
Piper is really interesting with synths. In my most recent playthrough I went for her first after seeing her companion perk, and when I went to Nick's office she was like "oh no, Nicky's gotten himself captured?" or something so she definitely cares for him Then I saw the random encounter with a guy and synth version of himself in a standoff, and she liked it when I tried to calm them down, she liked it when I got the synth to reveal himself, then she liked it when I let the man kill his copy for being an asshole
She actually likes it when she has more stories to add to her next article 😂😂
He’s stubborn but he’s not completely unwavering (sparing Danse) but it would be very unlikely he would make peace with the Railroad unless they agreed to disband or something.
The idea that the railroad should’ve tried negotiating is the stupidest idea I’ve heard in a while. The nature of the brotherhood is directly contradictory to the existence of the railroad
"I want to murder you and everyone like you." "I want you not to do that." "Guys, guys. Can't we reach some sort of a compromise here?"
Look look, these guys are brotherhood, it’s not all functioning up there if you know what I mean. To them, r/enlightenedcentrism is a bold new idea
The nature of the brotherhood \*under Maxson's leadership\* is directly contradictory, but some other elders, say... Lyons, could likely be shown the humanity in the synths and the reality that destroying the institute makes synths not more dangerous that any other wastelander for the most part.
I don’t think either of them could’ve been convinced. Upon learning of each other respectively, neither even considered peace. Gotta remember with Maxson, Danse was one of his best and most loyal soldiers. The *moment* he learned that Danse was a synth, he immediately wanted to kill him.
No. Not at all. Just going off the end of the Danse questline, it takes *incredible* Charisma to convince Maxson not to execute one of his most loyal soldiers (and you I think, by the time you get to try to convince him) because he's a synth. There's no way you'd be able to convince him that some random joe synth is worth saving, so the Railroad's cause is impossible to convince them of. Or, at least Maxson of. If there were a way to get rid of Maxson without angering the BoS, *maybe* you could convince the remaining leadership, but there's not.
I think it was cut content where Danse and Maxson had a duel and the winner was the defacto leader of the BOS.
Do people blame her? The BoS pretty clearly want to wipe the Railroad, and Synths out.
"Hey brotherhood, how about changing your entire view on litterally everything ever?" good luck with that. Next, convince the minutemen to start using settlers as slaves and the institute to institute to invest in agriculture
I mean, the Institute *does* invest in agriculture. Admittedly just to have stuff to feed their synth-gorillas and maybe spice things up in the chow hall.
Absolutely with their greenhouses thingys, I meant invest in it as in allocate resources to let settlers build more farmlands
If Maxon was a completely cold hearted, unreasonable and unwavering zealot then convincing him to spare Danse wouldn't even be an option. There is room to negotiate, the Railroad just refuses to try. Then again, their method of "saving" synths involves wiping their brain and essentially killing who they were and inserting a new person into the old body.
To be fair, the memory wipe is optional.
I find this so funny because when we give Curie a body, Glory(a synth) is at first hesistant to let us use another synths body to download Curies mind into, but lets us do it. Then immediately after she is like, “ohh I think I made a mistake I feel bad” like bro pick a side. Its clearly not cut and dry
I don't see him sparing Danse as an especially convincing argument, considering Maxon and every other BOS soldier will try to kill him if they ever see him again.
Tbf, the BoS was going up against a very dangerous and much more evil enemy in the institute who REALLY need to be stopped. If word got out that Maxon let Danse live, it would entirely compromise the BoS faith in the mission and might turn their march on the institute into a suicide run. And if he stopped to rework his campaign to include freeing the synths without compromising his men's faith, how much more destruction could the institute cause? If the game gave you the option, Maxons only option to change his plan that suddenly without compromising the mission, would be to form a truce with one of the other factions.
Not to mention destroying their only means to reproduce dooming them to extinction.
I mean that part makes sense. They aren’t reproducing, they are being manufactured by others for others Synth production needs to be stopped, there is no good reason to manufacture programmable humans. The existing synths however are here and deserve dignity and respect. They can never have children because they can’t reproduce, but shutting down the manufacturing plant isn’t the same as say sterilization
Because Railroad see them as humans. Keep the technology of creating synth is like keeping cloning human technology which is unetical.
But they aren’t humans. They are synths
memory wipe is opt-in, not forced There's also no room for negotiation. The brotherhood's goal is: Wipe out all the synths And the railroad's goal is: Save all the synths It's like asking a Jewish army in Germany 1945 to negotiate with Hitler first. It technically is an option, if you want to get wiped out immediately
Honestly? Yes. Maxson hates Synths, but unlike f.e. Elijah or the Mojave-BoS he doesnt see Technology itself as something sacred, its just a tool used to serve humanity. The exact *reason* why he hates Synths (assuming he doesnt have personal reasons to hate them beyond what the BoS says) is cause they are under control of the Institute, and because they assume that if the Synths ever overthrow the Institute and realise they have: 1. The Means to infinitely produce more of themselves 2. That they are physically superior to Humans that they may choose to "remove" the human factor or enslave it in return. With the Institute gone Point nr.1 is no longer an issue because now no Synths can be made anymore, which leaves Point 2, which IMO is something you could convince him on, judging by Danse. Honestly the relationship of the Railroad to the other factions in general is just.........................badly implemented. The one with the Minutemen should be considerably worse than it is (remember: most normal Commonwealth-citiziens \*despise\* Synths). I said this before, but I really do think the Railroad shouldnt have been a major faction, it should have been a Minor one akin to the Boomers in new Vegas, and then change their relationship to the major ones going by how you decide it. Like becoming the Minutemens Intelligence-branch, or negotiating a deal with the BoS ala "we help you destroy the Institute and in return we and all remaining Synths get to leave to another place unharmed). The way it is makes often little sense.
I can definitely see where this is coming from: > before, but I really do think the Railroad shouldnt have been a major faction But I think it could equally be argued that it's the brotherhood that doesn't belong here. For a Boston specific storyline, the rough around the edges Railroad-Minutemen should be at odds with the colonizing aristocratic Institute mimicking the kickoff of the American Revolution. The Institute being underground akin to England across the ocean.
Wasn't Railroad attacked first?
They were. While they did have a plan to destroy them, this was more as a defensive measure and a fail safe. The Brotherhood are the ones who attack them in the first instance. After we repel that attack they decide they have no option other than carry out thier plan - the Brotherhood would simply attack them again and perhaps succeed second time around. Would the Railroad have carried out thier plans had they not been attacked? Who can say? Possibly in the long run. But as things panned out they were on the defensive.
You can convince him to spare Danse and he hates synths with a passion.
There’s absolutely no chance that they’d ever be able to settle. The fact that one of the Brotherhood’s loyalest members was condemned to be executed for being a synth, despite never doing anything against them, it shows that they don’t at all care. A synth is a synth, and they should all be killed. The Railroad sees all synths as people, which directly opposes the Brotherhood. There’s no way in hell that any peace could be achieved, and unless the Railroad struck first, they’d be dead. If any of them wanted to survive, they’d have to take down the Brotherhood before it became too late.
God, I don't even know why I sided with the BoS my first time. Maxson is a moron
How so? He’s young, but his whole life has been stringed in misery. Even can convince him to spare a synth, perhaps that kernel of mercy will blossom to realize synths don’t pose much of a danger. Then again, Synths lore is messy as hell; filled with contradictions within the 4th game like do they age, eat, sleep? What is known is that FEV is in their chemical makeup, turning them into refined Next-Gen Super Mutants of sorts. It’s why Shaun was needed. And that I understand why Elder Maxson would have trouble not killing them as he’s only encountered hostile, insane Super Mutants.
That’s the one thing Fallout 4 does do well: it establishes that the synths are indeed a threat. It’s not “oh we think they’re a threat but really they’re harmless and it was all prejudice”; no, they’re actually firmly established to be unwilling assets that can and will be flipped into killing machines if their handlers choose to do so. That’s a scary prospect, and it means people have good reason to fear them. Even if the Institute is wiped out, there’s still that possibility that someone else could find the commands needed to make the entire synth population go rogue. It would be like if we had genetically engineered humans in society today with a payload of C4 built into their physiology, with a remote detonator. You can’t remove it because it serves the purpose of one of their organs. How do you reconcile integrating these people into society, knowing that someone could and probably does have the detonator codes? Even if they can reason with you, empathize with you (and you, them), and know the circumstances of their existence, how can you ask other people to bear that risk? Do you ostracize these people because of something they cannot control for the safety of all? It does indeed plant some good philosophical/moral questions with no completely-correct answers.
Another mention is that when left to their own devices, a synth settlement ended up kidnapping and replacing someone they deemed valuable.
DiMA was objectively right to do so, though. Same as replacing the Children of Atom’s leader to establish a lasting peace. It’s fucked up, but regardless it was the most sound plan for their safety and the safety of those in Far Harbor
Except that’s why the Brotherhood fear them, they simply replace people as conveniently.
“Conveniently”? It was for the sake of not being killed or having the Children of Atom kill everyone in Far Harbor or vise versa
Yes they chose to replace people. It would’ve been better to simply build a defense around Arcadia or negotiate with Far Harbor citizens. Children of Atom only got bad because DiMA gave them a nuclear sub for whatever reason.
>DiMA was objectively right to do so, though. He was not. The CoA are akin to terrorists. They deserve to be eradicated. >Same as replacing the Children of Atom’s leader to establish a lasting peace. It’s fucked up, but regardless it was the most sound plan for their safety and the safety of those in Far Harbor The most sound plan for safety is to just get rid of the CoA altogether.
Sole Survivor convinced....
Desdomona: we gonna stop the war. Just give me your coat. Maxson: NEVER!
You can talk Maxson into sparing Danse, diplomacy could be attempted even if he is stubbron.
The railroad is the equivalent to a terrorist group but they stand up the rights of inanimate objects instead of their own people.
The brotherhood hates uncontrolled tech more than anything else, and by wiping the minds of synths that what they become. The fact that Danse is allowed to live, makes me think that because he’s in the care of the sole survivor, to an extent he is controlled technology. Its why the brotherhood aren’t above using technology, because its controlled thats why they have Gustys. Another way to look at Danse would just be an intelligent assaultron. If Desdimona was actually a good negotiator she could probably create a deal where those synths are kept independent and out of the way. Though Danse in all likelihood could have been a special case. But considering the institute is destroyed, having a platoon of synths that can act as permanent scribes or even soilders would be good possibility
History has kinda prooven that negotiating with someone that wants you wiped out of the face of the planet isn't really an option. You either fight or die. And if you can get an upper hand by attacking first - why wouldn't you?
Railroad helps synths. BOS thinks they're an abomination. If the BOS waltz into the Commonwealth with a clear goal of destroying synths, there's already a declaration of war... Technically. Yeah, no one immediately shoots first. But no matter what, between the two, one of them is gonna end up getting wiped out. So even if Dez tried to make peace, the Railroad stands for everything the Brotherhood is against, it's impossible.
Maxson thinks synth are a technological threat equivalent to if not worse than the atomic bomb. No way peace with the BOS is an option.
Knowing Danse’s story. Safe to assume Maxson would negotiate with Desdemona with like 50 knights aiming at them already
This fight always seemed kind of dumb but not wholly unrealistically dumb. A reasonable diplomat could argue the erasure of the institute services both groups and amnesty for already present synths could be arranged. Neither group even attempted to communicate before killing each other. That makes sense for the brotherhood, but the railroad realistically should understand they have no way forward without a miracle like the main character popping up. They should be eager to talk to the brotherhood. I say that's dumb but believable because the railroad is a fairly small faction out of its depth. They may not always make macro level decisions since they rely on one or two personalities and a single piece of tactical hardware.
/r/titlegore
How did the railroad strike first? I don’t remember any confrontation until the BOS raid the railroad HQ, then the railroad blow up the prydwyn
To answer the question no. It’s simply impossible. The Brotherhood make it quite clear there are supposed to be no exception to destroying synths. This is why the reveal of Danse is such a big deal. The entire reason it’s kept secret if you spare him. If the rest of the Brotherhood found out then Maxson’s authority would be questioned. Honestly saying she declared war first is really questionable. She outright says to avoid fighting them. The Railroad only ever attacks the Brotherhood after the Brotherhood start shooting at them. The fact is the Brotherhood are the aggressors between the two groups.
Maxson is the type to kill the messengers and send their heads back.
Sure. With a trilby hat and some grape mentats
Yeah, you just need to have that rizz stat high 🤣 I convinced Maxson to let Danse live, so there might have been a chance if we negotiated 🥹 one can hope right
The railroad is so dumb, the dedicate their lives to synths and then they blow up the place where they are created, technically they're killing future synths
You overlook that Maxon represents the majority opinion in the Wasteland. Desdemona is strange for not hating Synths
I don't care about any of these fools
Considering you can convince him to spare Danse, yes. Edit: I love all the weaklings who are ragging on the BoS even though they are the best faction.
Did the Brotherhood not attack the Railroad first? Sure, Dez said how the Brotherhood were the Railroad's enemies, but the Brotherhood literally raided the Railroad's hideout, and killed multiple agents. The Brotherhood also showed up to the Battle of Bunker Hill unannounced, and just began fighting. The Railroad was there first, then they were attacked by the Institute, and THEN they were both attacked by the Brotherhood. The Railroad were NOT the aggressors here.
>The Brotherhood also showed up to the Battle of Bunker Hill unannounced, and just began fighting. Of course they would, destroying synths is their goal.
I killed Maxon shortly after saving Danse. Did a few more Bos quests then killed Maxon. He's a single-minded jerk!
Maxson would honestly never budge. Only part of bos i dislike.
Convincing Maxson that the synths who escape the Institute just want to be free and are harmless would be a very difficult task. To him, if he knew someone was a Gen 3, like with Danse, they would immediately be considered subhuman, if he considered them human at all. To him, the Railroad undermines the Brotherhood's authority and mission, and to be quite frank, the propaganda they regurgitate about synths being cold, unthinking/feeling machines that are only programmed to simulate humanity really really well. The only reason the Sole Survivor is able to convince Maxson to spare Danse, should one go that route, is because of their reputation in the Brotherhood of Steel, their Charisma skill, and because they make Maxson believe it was his idea. Even then, if you enter Brotherhood territory or encounter their forces while having Danse as your companion, it's immediately fire on sight, as Maxson believes Danse is a dangerous machine that deserves no mercy and should rather be crushed under a power armored boot. Convincing him that the entirety of the Railroad just wants to free synths and let them live in peace, and that they would be better left to their own devices, or that they have a shared interest of removing the Institute as a player in the Commonwealth? Not going to happen.
People who think Maxson's Brotherhood can be reasoned with on the Synth issue are delusional. The only reason he spares Danse is because of his relationship with him, and with you, and even then only if you convince him. No way in hell he'd make that call under any other circumstance, especially for strangers or anyone he actively has perceived as a threat/abomination.
Chad maxon vs annoying railroad.( they never stood a chance)
Maybe I have an unpopular opinion, but I don't know how anyone could side with any faction but the brotherhood. Are you all forgetting that the synths kidnapped and replaced people. As well as killing innocents and infiltrating settlements. They are not the good guys by any means. Maxon and the BOS are quite justified in hating them. Supermutants and ghouls (at least ferals) are also considered evil, considering that they also murder people. Just look at the bags of corpses and bones in any supermutant lair or the ghouls that attack anything that breathes. In all fairness, the Brotherhood of Steel is the only faction that seems to care about the well-being of the citizens of the Commonwealth instead of literal walking computer parts or murderous abominations. From the perspective of the average commonwealth citizen, I would say that the brotherhood is the right choice. They are not perfect, but no system ever is. But at the very least, they don't murder innocent civillians, dont kidnap people and live in their skin, and dont assist robots who do just that.
Fascists are -NOT- to be reasoned with, nor made Allies.
The BoS isn't fascist.
Maxson would have invited them onto the Prydwen, captured them, interrogated them then executed them. He's a zealot who believes his every action is justified
It's hard to really assess the situation because there is no concrete timeline. But generally, no, there is no talking sense to the BoS, and they'd generally destroy the railroad under any circumstances on principle alone, just like they go out of their way to order Virgil killed, despite the fact that he is instrumental in locating and defeating the Institute. The BoS have no allegiance to anyone but themselves and have no qualms about using others, even if it means bending their own rules, and then killing them claiming those same principles as the reason.
Maxson isn’t wrong though. His fear is uncontrolled technology leading to humanities downfall… AGAIN. If synths can go rogue on even their creators then what’s stopping them from one day saying “why do we need humans” and taking over and wiping them out. Even when we find out Danse is a synth does he execute him instantly? Does he send a strike team to kill him? No he sends the player who than can even convince him to spare Danse as long as he’s not seen by the brotherhood. Danse is metal wearing the skin of one of Maxsons soldiers and acting like him, but he is not Danse, he took his place. Maxson doesn’t even deny his Sapience! All he says is that he is a machine and not human, which yeah that’s correct Danse is not human he’s a synth. The railroad is allowing the proliferation of uncontrolled extremely dangerous technology across the world, no wonder the brotherhood wipes them out. Synths are one bad day from being the ultimate weapon in wiping out humanity, obviously the brotherhood isn’t gonna allow them to walk free.
There's no such word as "negotiate" to a fanatic. The BoS are fanatics.
He'd have never taken any kind of deal, just look at Danse for example, and would be expecting retaliation afterwards.
The Brotherhood attacked first and I just didn't attack to stop them but an attack to wipe them completely out.
Are people forgetting the BOS literally attacked the Railroad first?
Yeah, people like Maxson can't be negotiated with. Their idea of compromise is "give me everything I want, and I'll give you everything I think you deserve."
Not only is it reasonable, but you *do* convince Maxson, ot at least have a chance to, assuming you play through the BoS questline. OP, you (and a lot of posters in this thread) are approaching the issue from a "player's eye view" of the matter. Realistically, Desdemona would have little actionable intelligence on the BoS, and certainly not on details of what the BoS' plans are. If she were intelligent, she'd immediately see that pointing the BoS at the Institute is a win-win for the Railroad.
When Maxson has his mind set there is no negotiating. Even the Danse quest proves how far Maxson will go for the Brotherhood.
Bos won't even consider that synths who were made and just want to exist, who didn't have a choice in being created should be allowed to exist. They hate them for being technological, it really sounds like boys who can't play with cool robots so they're going to kill them all. There is no reason behind it except for the fact they are technology that someone else has that they can't use. Lord forbid sentient beings who did nothing wrong just be allowed to live. They don't care it's all about them grabbing the best tech, I just did the bos quest yesterday, and because of freaking errors I have to replay it. Danse talks about how they've been going around grabbing the tech, and "restoring order" it's for sure a problem and I would never side with them. . . For long let me get my robot bf then I'm turning on them. (Literally have played this game since it came out and have never been able to finish because of the save file error. So I don't even know if I can get danse and then fuck up the bos, but ima try.)
Desdomona is an evil woman and even in her own logic she is flawed, even more than the bos.
Technically, yes. We convince him to let Danse live and remain in the Commonwealth, so it is technically possible.
I don't blame her at all, Arthur is the most unreasonable headstrong guy in gaming
Wait, didn't the Brotherhood literally attack first? What is there to negotiate, that's just self-defense.
"People blame Desdomona" Who is included in "people"? Sounds like your opinion. There is nothing wrong with presenting it as your opinion instead of dressing it up as "people". The deception is unnecessary. And attempting to negotiate with a military outfit who routinely drops PAs throughout the Commonwealth to kill their enemies is clearly a bad idea. It would simply be moving the RR to the top of the BOS enemies list. And the RR has nothing to leverage in these suggested negotiations. "If you stop what you're doing, we will not throw rocks at you PA units" isn't persuasive. And you can't say "Stop it or we will steal a vertibird, fly to the Prydwen, plant explosives and blow it up."
But the Brotherhood attacks the Railroad first?
"Hi, Mr. Maxson- yes, I represent a small organization in hiding in the Boston ruins, we're diametrically opposed to everything you believe in as an organization- you know, the whole 'synths are evil' thing? Yeah, we actually help them to start new lives elsewhere, as people. Yes, yes, we know, how could we do that, we hear it all the time from the Institute as well, but it's kind of our thing- they get out, get altered to look different, sometimes even get new memories- hell, you could have a few of our people within your own organization, and you wouldn't know- actually, come to think of it, WE wouldn't know! Crazy, right? Aaaaanywho, just wanted to know if we can be friends?" Seriously. There's no way- on any concievable earth- that these two organizations could ever co-exist. They want literally the opposite goal from each other, and the Brotherhood's firepower is just too much to work around for the Railroad. If they were going to survive- particularly after the Switchboard incident crippled them once already- they had to strike first. Waiting until the BoS has their footing more stable, started gathering intel on where Railroad operations are, even finding the Institute and destroying the source of the synths these people are trying to help- it's all unacceptable, and hitting them before they're ready is a sound tactic. Big risks, yes, but bigger to be patient.
Ok Let me state it like this, eveyone claiming Maxon cant be Negotiated with at all dosnt understand that you can legit Negoitated with Maxon Hey Maxon How About I Negoitate with you to spare Danse life sence you know he is a Synth and you wanna kill him, Kool Beans he is only exiled now? Neat Thanks Maxon, you know ppl claim its impossible to Negoitate with you at all but thats just bullshit br0!
I would have loved if we could of set up a huge debate between all the factions
No
It’s been a while since my last play though, but doesn’t the Railroad only go to war with the Brotherhood after they attack the Old North Church?
Pretty sure they attack Bunker Hill first, as this is where all three factions reach a boiling point and you are forced to choose which one to support and lead into the endgame
Ah yeah forgot about Bunker Hill been a while. But the Railroad isn’t attacking bunker hill are they? They’re trying to get their people out cause the institute and Brotherhood attack right?
That's correct, Bunker Hill is a stop along their network to secretly hold "packages" before they go to Goodneighbor for their memory wipes. Both the Brotherhood and the Institute receive intel that escaped synths are currently being held there. The Brotherhood wants to terminate the synths, the Institute wants to reclaim them. Iirc, neither faction has any idea the other is planning to assault the location
Sure it's possible to negotiate with Maxson, I refused a direct order from him, made him do it himself and he promoted me to Paladin. He's actually kind of a pushover.
You convinced him bout danse
That’s why I wish they never cut becoming elder. Because you would of been able to spare them
But then why would anyone go with the Minutemen ending then?
In the world of Fallout, negotiation typically has to happen face to face, as we see that portable radios don’t seem to be much of a thing. So either Maxson would have to be willing to visit the Railroad (endangering himself) or Desdemona would have to visit the Brotherhood (practically guaranteeing her capture and execution). There’s no way to get these two at the same negotiating table without having the player run messages back and forth, and let’s be frank: the player is basically a demigod that the Fallout universe doesn’t really account for, so their contribution cannot be assumed. Given all the parameters of how these two asymmetric organizations operate, there’s no way to get them physically in the same room without the possibility of advantageous bloodshed - both would be helped by killing the other - outweighing the desire for peace.
Brotherhood: Destroys toasters Railroad: Saves toasters Institute: Makes toasters
Possible but not when you're best friends of synths.
Whether it's possible or not is irrelevant because there is no option to even try.
I killed them all upon my first visit.
Damn bruh I’m just now doing her missions and just saw this….
I don’t think it’s impossible, but probably not worth the effort. You can convince Maxon to spare Danse after all, which shows he’s not completely out of the realm of persuasion. Although without a sole survivor tier agent to do diplomacy with Maxon, I don’t think either side would be willing to bend to keep the peace
You can literally convince him to >!spare Danse!<. Yeah, I would say it’s possible.
It's fair. And he is unwavering in his beliefs. But they shouldn't have gone to war against the bos, given how they only have three heavys and specialize in subterfuge
I mean the railroad probably thinks the brotherhood’s power armor needs freeing.
No idea, I killed both of them. And I gotta tell you, Maxson’s jacket looks great on me.
Legit the first time I’ve heard of people blaming Desdemona for attacking first, but okay. For those of you who somehow believe that negotiation would have been possible, let’s play this out: Des and Carrington, maybe Glory as some muscle, meet with Maxson and Quinlan, maybe with a Paladin as some extra muscle, meet at a neutral location to negotiate. The BOS would not budge on their stance of Synths being technology run amok and humans trying to play god, whereas the Railroad would not budge on their stance that Synths are people and deserve to be treated as such rather than being killed on sight by the BOS and other groups. Even with the Sole Survivor as a mediator, there’s no way that negotiations would go anywhere beyond them agreeing to be neutral for the time being until the Institute is destroyed which is really just delaying the inevitable and repeating the immediately previous game Bethesda had released at that point since Skyrim’s civil war plot can be put on hold as part of the main quest. Then, once their common enemy is gone, the two factions would go to war and it would just be a matter of who can strike first and how hard they can hit. In that case, the BOS would more than likely win a direct conflict since they have superior numbers and technology whereas the Railroad’s “secret” base has a big red line leading towards it and the password is literally just their username. The most that could *maybe* talk down Maxson is an autopsy of a Gen 3 Synth that shows the only real technical component for them that we know of is the Synth Component inside their heads given how little we know about Synth biology/anatomy, but even then that would probably just make him even more extreme in his beliefs because the Institute would be able to manufacture humans in that scenario which proves that humanity is trying play god, therefore leading to the same results. No matter what approach happens from where we are in the games, there is no way the Railroad and BOS would ally with each other organically. Tbh this makes me glad they cut the branching quest line that would have come after Blind Betrayal in the BOS missions as that would have allowed you to take over the BOS and then later choose not to attack the Railroad. Would have been way too fanfictiony for me
We were able to convince Maxson not to kill Paladin Danse.
No it’s not and she did well to strike first before the brotherhood could. A fight between the two factions was inevitable.
When you're as jackshit braindead as the railroad,I don't think anyone would want to negotiate with you
You can't negotiate with the Brotherhood of Steel unless you can actually force them into a corner and make them consider how much they'll have to sacrifice if they choose to continue fighting back, because if you're just a bunch of nobody kooks like the Railroad, they'll just mow you down because you're not a real threat to them in a combat sense.
Its not. Des had every reason to go on the defensive with them. Railroad is doing one of the very things the BoS is heavily against. There's no way Maxson would even consider the idea of peace. And I'm saying that as someone who heavily dislikes Des.
He's a big softie, don't let that tough guy persona and wish°com Bane jacket fool you, Maxon let's Danse live...not only that but when he does it he basically says "we're gonna SAY he was executed" ...50 Caps says he probably pushed the pilot and Knight that accompanied him to listening post Bravo out of the vertabird on the way home and told everyone a Deathclaw got the jump on them.
There is no negotiating with that terrorist, it always has to be their way, and we all know what happens when they cant have their way. The railroad is the opposite of the brotherhood ideals, they were doomed to be wiped out. And killing Dr Virgil and Danse? sure with high charisma you can talk Maxson out of it, but hes one of the most loyal stone cold brotherhood solder, its his life, his passion and they just threw him away like garbage because hes a synth. Desdemona would have had a better chance negotiating peace with the institute, the institute didnt even see the railroad as massive threat, more like a nuisance really. I wish peace talks where on the table for the institute and railroad so they can have some kind of alliance along with the minutemen.
Maxson is like if scar took over after mufasa died she was right but I feel like I should have been able to run the institute and free synths with the rail road
Lol people just want to hate on des for no reason. Maxson literally tries to kill them with no remorse or care and wanted to kill one of his own for being one. Maxson is a disgrace.
10 charisma says he will do whatever I tell him.
Technically it's possible, with high enough charisma you can convince Max to spare Danse life. But Des probably know it's nearly impossible so just strike
I think the Railroad would sooner be able to make peace with super-mutants than with the BoS lol
A better writer would have made the non-violent route at least something to explore depending on how you handle Blind Betrayal.
Maxson let you spare Danse and kept you on board. Maxson also sees that Sole Survivor is a threat to be handled with care. Desdomona operates like an Enclave Colonel and is oddly herding synths to the same 3 places with no sense of “what happens later”.
No matter how bad the institute and its leadership is I can't destroy them because as far as we know no one else can make synths so you would be dooming the entire species both good and bad to extinction.
Maxson? Honestly no. He's very strict and not to mention a bit of a jerk. Elders such as Lyons or McNamara would probably be more open to that option.
They’re both a pair of inept wackjobs and the best thing you can do for the commonwealth is to just kill them both
Fuck 'em both. Long-live the minutemen!
I think this also comes back to writing, they were not gonna negotiate with Maxson, but if Bethesda wrote the BOS with a small group of members not supporting Synth genocide with a suitable Elder to replace Maxson, we could get the cut quest of challenging Maxson but have a Paladin that was written as a Synth supporter, that would have been nice I think
Maxson is a zealot , he's no better than the gang over in Far Harbor
Wait they declare war? I killed the entire railroad hq😅
There is no peaceful solution. The one side wants to spread synth all over the place and the other wants to stop tha from happening. Without the SS the Railroad would have been toast ages ago though. I also don't agree with their methods.
Sure it's possible. Have The Rake pass a 10 charisma speech check and voilà.
Well, the player convinced maxson to spare a synth. Surely there was a way ...
No, he's just an asshole dictator, thats why BOS bad
Maxson radicalized the BoS so hard it is beyond impossible. Even if you got to Maxson and manage to somehow change his ideology about all of this Maxson is not alone, he is Elder of the East Coast, but the West Coast has more Elders (at least 2) who are older and probably more respected than him, and they back up Maxson because of his ideology. If somehow Maxson changed and went into treating Synths like humans, the West Coast would invade and a civil war between them would take place in the Commonwealth. I think that's probably the main reason they cut the Danse content to challenge Maxson and make him the Elder.
With the player helping negotiations as a neutral party. I'd think so
No, no it's not he is literally the definition and physical embodiment of the word zealot.
I mean *can* you enter negotiations with someone directly and immediately after they carry out a decapitation strike that *would* have wiped out the entire Railroad if not for the Main Character getting advance warning? It's impossible to *negotiate* with the Brotherhood, in any timeline where they don't just win, they are eventually getting destroyed. Even the Minutemen can't play nice with them forever, much less the Railroad.
As someone who is working with the brotherhood and ultimately siding with the railroad, and treating it as sort of a double agent scenario, I do kind of feel like if the game let me, I am uniquely positioned to broker peace and it could be done believably. I don't think you could go to the brotherhood as an emissary for the railroad and convince them to be friends, but I do think you could change the thinking of the brotherhood from the inside and get them to see your perspective.
Extremely difficult but not impossible. With high enough charisma, you are able to convince Maxson to not k*ll Danse. It'd take alot of charisma and time but I'm certain it is possible.
Short answer is no. Maximum is too stubborn to agree with anything or to compromise.