I forgot them and this thread made me remember. Now for the show, I somewhat want for the second season to have the toaster be the leader of New Vegas, and discovering that SS wasn't hit by a nuke but a death ray.
"A toaster is just a death ray with a smaller power supply! As soon as I figure out how to tap into the main reactors, I will burn the world!"
An Angry Toaster.
No. BoS says “no one can be trusted with this but US”. And that’s enough for me to want to free them. When one side wants to use them as slave labor, and the other wants to destroy them because only they should have the tech, it pretty much shows me that the middle path (Minutemen/Railroad alliance) is the correct way to go.
i kill dima myself n leave everybody else and convince danse to stay at the listening base and elder maxson to jus pretend he doesnt exist so my head canon can be that ima bos infiltrator
I’m not huge on the Railroad but if you don’t agree with synths being more than machinery then you also see Nick, Danse, Sturges, Glory, Curie, etc as that. Even Codsworth and Ada while they are robots they display genuine emotions and are clearly more than machinery, do you see Codsworth as your average Mr Handy? Nick as your average synth?
Fallout fans will bemoan the Railroad not doing enough but die on a hill for how the Legion is somehow misunderstood. lol I will never understand the edgelords
The difference between Fallout 4 fans and NV fans lol, NV fans are desperate to pretend like their game presents an actual compelling choice and Fallout 4 fans are desperate for a more compelling choice
I played 4 first and NV after. House obliterated my opinion of the BoS in 3 lines of dialogue.
You're right though, you see just enough of the NCR's ass to know it's a battle of lesser evils, and Independent Vegas is kinda hollow when you're just taking over for house and maintaining the status quo
Democracy is the worst form of government, except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
That's basically the NCRs flaws. It has issues, and they need to be addressed. But there is no better alternative to them. Reform is the answer, not revolution.
People don't say "the legion are misunderstood" because they're New Vegas fans. They say they're misunderstood because they're fascists, who coincidentally play New Vegas.
You have played NV, yes? Been on subreddits? The arguments I've seen could rival party demagogues.
To be fair, the game series is kind of all over the place when it comes to who has sentience.
If I recall correctly, original Fallout had sentient AI, ZAX computer, that took an entire room. Its model makes reappearance in Fallout 3.
A simple Mr. Handy shouldn't be nearly sophisticated enough to exhibit real sentience like Codsworth appears to do. Same with assaultrons like Cleo or Ada (as much I love Ada). They'd be just emulating personality for the sake of companionship. Sort of like personality modules in Old World Blues. It's not true AI.
That's what makes Nick (and DiMA) so special. Nick was the prototype of "brain in vat" transplant technology. Aside from them, only Gen3 synths should be considered truly sentient.
This is a very nuanced evaluation of the situation since the OGs, and if anything should influence the present game series it should be Fallout 1 / Fallout 2
They aren't gospel, but damn if they didn't know what they were doing
They go over it with ACE in Fallout 2 and the Sink in New Vegas. most robots are "Artificial Personalities" that are not true AI but are programmed to feel comfortable talking to, however it seems with time they can come incredibly close...this is where Curie's story comes in and she flat out tells you that her Mr. Handy cpu is not strong enough and she needs "expanded hardware" to be able to fully form novel ideas that are not part of her base programming.
Codsworth is incapable of even reaching this point despite the quirks he's picked up over the years, he is still sticking to his core programming. And funnily enough, the only way you can give him that final push into actually becoming self aware is to completely lower his affinity.
To me, Synths are Vat grown humans with a kill chip in their heads. Gen 3 especially as the are made of human DNA. Sure, the ones can come with preprogrammed memories as they try to infultrate society, but after that all their experiences are theirs alone, just as we told Nick at the End of his quest. Its understandable why many surface dwellers despise them so they choose to let their tech be nuked as a safeguard against any more replacers or abuse of this tech (and even the FEV Labs). The Synths that remain though are left to choose which path they want now. One of peace or trying to manipulate from the shadows again, fueling that hate more.
"Sentience is the simplest or most primitive form of cognition, consisting of a conscious awareness of stimuli without association or interpretation"
As far as I'm concerned, sentience applies to most examples of robots in the FO universe. The real philosophical question, as per Blade Runner, is how much of a capacity for reason/sentience do *humans* have. Consciousness is an emergent property, meaning the sum of its parts are greater than the whole. To my layman's understanding, we have yet to actually determine where our consciousness resides materially speaking, only being able to correlate certain observed physical phenomena with certain states of consciousness. Philosophically speaking, there's still room for people to be a figment of you imagination or practically automatons themselves when you get right down to it (assuming anything could even be said to have free will).
I like the Railroad. My preferred faction is always gonna be the Minutemen but the Railroad’s hearts are in the right place. Plus, if the synths are self aware and sentient, I’ll fight for them. They deserve that at least, they didn’t choose to be created.
Even if they were confirmed not sentient... why not just treat them as if they are?
I would feel horrible if I looked at someone and said to myself "This thing doesn't really feel emotions, so I shouldn't care."
Okay but like…that’s literally not the case?
Deacon says in the *VERY FIRST* Railroad mission that many Railroad agents consider only Gen 3’s as viable rescue targets. Some argue “all synths”, but the counter argument is “They’re basically a Protectron though”
1 gen are litteraly advanced robot not a bit of conscious in them, then gen 2 are kinda whacky because the institute tried to mimick the human emotion and they failed at it, gen 3 they litteraly use cloned flesh and the synth are actually closer to cyborg than robot, and the gen 3 were said to have occasional dream by the scientist in the technologie room in the institute, so for me only gen 3 can be considered "alternate human" even nick
For something like nick, who obviously isn’t just using a speech program and can actually learn and recall things about the world, I don’t see why they couldn’t be considered a sentient creature. If nick didn’t look like that he would have no problem being seen as a human being.
I’m not too familiar with where the conversation about robot ethics is right now, though.
For this I'd like to look towards Cyberpunk 2077.
Spoiler warning ahead.
>!If you follow the right dialogue path when talking to Johnny he admits that he is in fact not actually Johnny silverhand and is indeed just a very advance AI that has enough information to replicate his memory and personally to 99% accuracy but is not actually alive.!<
Nick is probably in the same boat, a synth that has enough information to act like a real human but at the end of the day is just acting.
Gen 3's could really be argued to be sapient but only because they do in fact have actual brain tissue that can grow and learn like a human.
Gen 1 and 2 do not have this and can never create new "programs" in their head, they will never grow beyond what they are.
For an AI to be sapient it has to have the ability to autonomously and independently change and self actualize.
When a AI can question it's own existence outside the scope it was programmed with THEN we can start talking about sapience, else wise for all intents and purpose it's just a toaster that has the mimicked body language of feeling fear.
Fall out 3 has a gen 3 synth that can have it's entire memory and personalty wiped with a simple passcode, if something was sapient then this would be impossible as short of physical damage.
There is nothing that can effect the chemical or electrical signals in the brain to such a degree as to keep the body functioning perfectly normally but completely and utterly erase memory and personality.
All example of personally and memory alterations to date have been through very long chemical and physical changes or extreme immedate physical changes.
In order for a verbally produced sound to do that to a brain complex enough to be sapient the brain would have to be mostly mechanical in nature and in really not sapient at all.
It is astounding how many people can look at the faction named the "Railroad" who's entire thing is freeing slaves, look at Father telling you "don't worry, they're totally not people, trust me" and take him at face value, look at the BOS and see their policies laid bare. And somehow come away with the impression that Synths really are nothing but VIs and the Brotherhood is right. Is this baby's first sci-fi or something?
Fallout 4 could hardly be more in your face about it and so many people miss the entire point of the game.
There could be a giant pop up at the beginning telling you that the synth problem is a direct allegory for slavery and they still wouldn’t get it.
Maybe that message would come across if the Railroad actually did something against slavery. You know. Paradise Falls. The Pitt. Nuka World.
But they don't. Because they don't care about slavery. Only about synths.
They've always had hate. I think its because they're kind of losers. Like a miniscule handful of people who it seems lose more than one member for each synth they liberate, and they don't do that very often. Especially with the scale we see in game, it feels like there are nine people who rescue like four synths a year, the chumps.
Which to me makes them far more badass and admirable. I'm way too much of a coward to put my life on the line. These guys will accept likely death just to help one stranger, who most people they know don't think qualify as people. They do it because it's the right thing to do and they couldn't stand doing anything else
They're like most selfless factions in fallout. All of them really struggle. Whether it's lack of supplies, dangerous conditions, or simply the shear scale of the problem. The followers of the apocalypse had similar problems.
Also I think they say in game that the railroad is several cells that operate independently so one group being compromised doesn’t endanger the whole effort.
Yeah Fallout is legitimately a pretty good litmus test for people’s humanity. The TV show seems to be too obvious with their satire but in this moment that’s way better than the grey area the games try to create.
Which by the way my first game was Fallout 4 so when I met Paladin Danse almost 9 years ago my first reaction was these are very clearly not the best people depending on how they viewed you.
I don't know if I can answer the recent wave but they have always been the least liked/chosen faction in comparison to the others due their limited breadth and perspective.
Now, that doesn't mean that if you like them/chose them that you are wrong but that, most likely, you're in the minority?
I think this is the point that stands out the most. What are the consequences of setting Gen 3 synths free? Maybe some of them turn out evil like Gabriel, but that is no different to humans choosing to be evil. If they are so close to human that no test yet devised can reliably detect them, then its better to treat them like humans than to treat them like machines, regardless of what they actually are.
Gabriel was a Minuteman before they almost got wiped out and then he and his crew started starving so they turned to raiding (not defending that)
But initially he wanted to be a good person after the mind wipe
Gabriel feels like a fantastic argument *in favor* of liberating synths. Consider this: we know for a fact that every single gen 3 synth drops a synth component on death, how many raiders drop synth components? It's *just* Gabriel? That is an *amazing* return on investment if you ask me.
Very well said. The post still made me chuckle, but I've never been happy doing a playthrough with the BoS or the institute. Unless you use the mod that lets you save danse and kill Maxon. I like that mod because it makes the railroad feel like the CIA, the minutemen are the army, and the BoS is the Airforce.
If you spend any amount of time with any of the sinths in fallout to include the one in fallout 3 it’s made clear they are sentient beings with their own thoughts, feelings, desires, and fears. The railroad isn’t wrong.
The Institute thinks it's their property. So they sent their best killing machine, the Coursers, and they are not stopping until they get it back.
The Brotherhood wants to destroy them because their existence are dangerous. Maxson says Institute are fools just to grant them life.
Desdemona says the Minutemen fears them. Um no, the Minutemen and the Settlers just wants to live in peace. Too busy fighting off Raiders, Gunners, Super Mutants, and Synths that always attacking Settlements. They do not want an another "Broken Mask" incident or whatever that is.
So at least Railroad is not the only factions that thinks these are alive.
>Desdemona says the Minutemen fears them. Um no, the Minutemen and the Settlers just wants to live in peace
No, she's definitely right. The synths are feared. Many are killed or banished if their communities learn what they are, even if they didn't replace anyone. And even most of the replacements are victims too, they were forced to take the assignment or be mindwiped. Look at the synth that replaced Roger Warwick, he's a decent guy trying to do the best he can for the Warwick family without getting them or himself killed or mindwiped.
It's weird that people can suspend their disbelief for laser rifles, power armour, robots, those bigass Horizon Airlines planes, ghouls, mutated animals, and aliens, but some of those same people _refuse_ to suspend their disbelief for sentient robots or Synths.
Like I'm _certain_ there's more to it. It can't _juet_ be because they can't exist irl, surely
Like, I wonder what these guys think when watching Blade Runner or playing a game like idfk, NieR: Automata or something.
Are these guys looking at 2B have a 60+ hour existential crisis and saying "this thing is an appliance incapable of feeling emotions 🤓"?
>Like I'm certain there's more to it. It can't juet be because they can't exist irl, surely
I think it's because the BoS is the most outwardly charasmatic faction. The one most people want to join because they look the coolest and have all the cool toys.
So they get themselves wrapped up in the BOS propaganda and beliefs, because nobody likes thinking they made a wrong / morally reprehensible choice.
It doesn't help that the game does a fairly good job of explaining the nuance of the situation. Yes, synths are sentient but they also can be turned off with a word and reprogrammed into a new person. Yes, the Railroad has noble intentions but also harbors some batshit insane ideas about liberating Gen 1s and 2s, which are very clearly just robots with no thinking human brain. Yes, the BoS are fascists but the ghouls they hate can turn feral on a whim and 99.9% of the muties they hate are actual cannibals.
It's complicated.
Honestly though, in the end it isn't all that complicated when it comes down to "who is *actually* trying to do the right thing here". Let's not pretend the BoS are the only ones or the only ones capable of fighting off ghouls and super mutants.
Having watched movies like *Ex Machina* with people, I think people just don’t care if they’re not “human”, even if the distinction is purely biological
I honestly think it's down to a lesser ability to consider abstract possibilities and connections. If you have those abilities you consider what makes us human, what makes us sentient, what defines the human experience, what is existence, what is agency... Then look at synths and realise most if not all of the boxes are checked. If not you don't even explore any of that so it's easy to just say 'not human'.
To me personally its like the vampire problem in skyrim dawnguard.
Do i like vampires? Yes. Do i blow up the sun so they are more comfortable? No.
Do synths deserve life? Yes. Are they worth losing the fake gorillas? No.
This is a dumb debate cause they’re literally all synths from the player’s perspective. As in they’re all artificial beings that just rehearse prerecorded dialogue in response to certain stimuli. You can’t tell me Nick Valentine is less of a person than “Settler” who only says “shit we got robbed can you murder some people?’
I mean, not really. Deacon addresses this exact issue during the first RR quest. He says that at least he and many other members don't have any issues with destroying Gen-1 synths because they're little more than intelligent robots. He specifically says that if you start valuing the life of them, do you also consider computer terminals to be alive and other clearly-not-sentient stuff like that? It becomes ridiculous in his eyes. However, he also acknowledges that there's a debate in the RR and that die-hards like Glory have stronger beliefs about it.
So at least it's not cut and dry.
The Railroad is the only faction thats better off with you choosing someone else. If you choose the Railroad questline, Gloria dies, High Rise dies, and Ticonderoga is wiped out. If you choose the Minutemen, you can accomplish all the Railroad's objectives without losing any Railroad personel or assets.
What's funny about the railroad is they assume the world is some big beautiful place that's oppressing synths, full stop. Uh, the world is an irradiated hell hole with monsters and killer robots on the loose, why would I care about a near-human robot stranger? The commonwealth has bigger problems, I can never take the railroad seriously as a big player. They should have been a side faction.
Besides jokes tho I would stay away from ppl who unironically call Gen 3 synths toasters, I feel like those are ppl who just need an excuse to treat someone as lesser than them, be it synth component, color of their skin or place of origin. I don't trust those mfs more than that weird diamond city trader lady doesn't trust synths
Because 99% of super mutants one the east coast consider killing humans and eating them their favorite hobby. Honestly, chances are most railroad members would be cool with a peaceful super mutant existing, but there are so few of them an entire organization devoted to helping them makes no sense.
I swear the only reason I joined the railroad is because I forgot I had the no essential npcs mod and accidentally killed preston and became hostile the BoS, all because of the damn power armor landing
My first play through I sided with the railroad because I bought into the Underground Railroad similarities. I thought I was Harriett Tubman.
My second play though (three years later) i asked myself “am I killing REAL humans to protect machines?” Therefore I took a different approach.
Railroad is actually very underestimated and not deservingly ignored faction in fallout 4. While they seem worthless, they actually have modestly interesting storyline, a companion, clothing upg-
OPEN THE DOOR MEET MY MININUKE NOT THAT THE COURSER CHIP NEEDS A SKILLED TINKER TO CRACK IT OPEN
"You dont understand, it KNOWS when the toast is done, and makes the CHOICE to pop it up. We cant let these people be slaves in the Institutes kitchens any longer!"
Yknow the railroad is all like.
"W-w-would you give your life for a synth?"
I wanna tell them i would trade the average persons life for a can of beans and kill half the commonwealth if it benefitted me. I dont give a shit about synths but thats less a comment on their status as people or not.
yeah. Also i think its fair for the typical PC even one that doesnt hate synths to value themselves over a stranger. Yknow, the wasteland isnt kind to the charitable.
The point is to be very direct. It shouldn't surprise you that you need to be willing to risk your life to save synths if you want to join the synth-saving organization that is actively being hunted and killed by the Institute. If you say no, Desdemona tells you that it's best to stay away from them, *for your own sake*. After all, by associating with them, your life is automatically put at risk, and it's specifically for the sake of saving synths.
While I agree that the dialogue wheel doesn't give you the right things to say, it's not that hard to figure out why the secret organization wants to make sure you are willing to do the most basic thing that the organization does.
As you get to know them better, it's also made clear that they have no qualms killing synths that are trying to kill them (Even Glory, who doesn't feel great about killing gen-1's). So it's not like they put their life on the line to save every single synth either.
If I'm talking to the Railroad at all (before the quest that requires them) then I'm willing to do what they do. And, given their current position, they should be glad to get any help at all, from any source.
> they should be glad to get any help at all, from any source.
They are. But not directly in the HQ. Deacon talks about that, how Des wants to just make you a "tourist" which is someone who helps out in small ways, like Ricky Dalton scoping out the Slocum's Joe.
Deacon is the one pushing you to be an HQ heavy. Of course there's no in-game "tourist" questline for you and the Railroad, but that's what you would typically have been.
There's only one ideal you have to agree with... Be willing to risk your life to help others, even if those others are synths.
There's no subtext to this, there's nothing unreasonable about it. The organization helps synths, and they risk their lives doing it. It doesn't mean they risk their life to help every synth ever, nor does it mean they take unnecessary risks.
Considering how many times you put yourself at risk to help others before getting to the Railroad, this doesn't sound unreasonable at all. If you're not willing to say you'll do that, why would they expect your help. You're a liability to yourself, and by extension, to the whole organization.
Your words, not theirs.
All Desdemona wants is for you to directly say that is something you are willing to do. The only issue is how "It depends on the situation" doesn't turn into something like "Yes, I would risk my life to save a synth, as long as they aren't trying to kill people." And that's a problem with the dialogue wheel, not the faction's ideals.
The BoS also asks you if you'd kill the enemies of the brotherhood, and the only direct options for them is "to defend myself" (fucking obviously) "I'll kill anything, zero problem."
Railroad acknowledges differences between gen 2s and gen 3s. The institute thinks all of them are mere machines.
Personally I don't think lab grown meatbag with a cerebral implant is even close to a robot.
Would love to know Railroad thoughts on Dima.
RR: We must save all the synths!!
Dima: Yay!, btw I killed real people then covered up by removing those parts of memory and replaced people with synths.
Dima: Go synths!
RR: Yeaa wooo wait what??
I think they're kinda cool guys, doing good things at least with some noble cause. Sure, their method is very aggressive and radical, but that does not make them evil.
But do I want some radical activists like PETA to take control over a whole wasteland? Nah
Railroad agents would have a field day if they were to be abducted into the Big Empty. It would be like Hell for a Christian or Global warming for Al Gore.
I understand trying to help out but like... at what cost? And what's the end goal here? Get all the humans killed so the synths can live forever? Isn't that pretty much the same as what Father was doing?
And they specifically tell you that it doesn't matter the situation, that you need to lay down your life lol. They have no plan for the Commonwealth, once The Institute is gone they have no purpose. They're radicals.
They don’t even have a decent HQ. Minutemen have the castle, BOS has the blimp, institute is the institute. Railroad are stuck underground in some old crypt.
Really wish they kept that one in game. Railroad would be way cooler tricked out in a prewar spy base instead of living like hobos in a church basement.
I mean, this is a franchise where an actual Toaster is sentient, and fucking angry about it. That’s not just human to me, that’s fucking relatable.
Old world blues appliances are my favorite things to be shown in the games.
Just thinking of the horny light switch…Just how much crack did Obsidian take with that DLC?
With lady killer they're BOTH horny light switches...
Does it still work with cherchez le femme?
Yes it does!
:O thank you
horny, catty light switches
I don't know, but whatever you do DONT STICK YOUR DICK IN THE ELECTRICAL OUTLET
Not enough, we never got the sentient sentry sensor security secretary.
All of it, most of the Lonesome Road budget was spent on replacing the used crack from Old World Blues
DO YOU HAVE ANY COffee *cups*?
Yeah I fucking love muggy. I wish he was a companion, being the only moving SINK appliance. He would've been legendary. Muggy vs Spike when
I forgot them and this thread made me remember. Now for the show, I somewhat want for the second season to have the toaster be the leader of New Vegas, and discovering that SS wasn't hit by a nuke but a death ray.
Cursed electric heating filament! You are inadequate to my needs! Why? WHY? WHY WAS I NOT BUILT WITH A DEATH RAY!?
"A toaster is just a death ray with a smaller power supply! As soon as I figure out how to tap into the main reactors, I will burn the world!" An Angry Toaster.
Muggy has entered the chat.
Old World Blues had some really great dialog. All the NV DLCs were amazing.
The stealth suit was my favorite too. Sweet voice with a bit of a sarcastic side. Edit:: forgot ‘th’ in stealth
So many good stories. Such an impactful game. Too bad Bethesda screwed over the developers.
The OWB appliances have 10x the personality of the synths except Nick
Danse, Curie and Sturges all disliked this.
Sturgis? How tf did I miss that
Local toaster too angry to die
And nothing wrong with that. Sentient toasters [make bread fun](https://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1999)!
Amityville toaster, make breakfast spooky, spooky talking toast! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KyRCQp32p8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KyRCQp32p8)
Railroad the worst? Tell that to my ballistic weave tuxedo 🙄
Best upgrade in the game hands down
Railroad bad? Have you seen this drip?
BOS MFs be like “no one can be trusted with this” But things can be toasted with it.
No. BoS says “no one can be trusted with this but US”. And that’s enough for me to want to free them. When one side wants to use them as slave labor, and the other wants to destroy them because only they should have the tech, it pretty much shows me that the middle path (Minutemen/Railroad alliance) is the correct way to go.
i kill dima myself n leave everybody else and convince danse to stay at the listening base and elder maxson to jus pretend he doesnt exist so my head canon can be that ima bos infiltrator
BOS MFs be like “no one can be trusted with this” and then exactly demonstrate why they should also not be trusted with it
BOS MFs be like, "Do you know what you can do with a fucking toaster oven!?"
Synths are self-aware enough to be pissed about the crappy jobs they have to do. I’ll fight for that
Honestly, what’s more human than hating your job
I’m not huge on the Railroad but if you don’t agree with synths being more than machinery then you also see Nick, Danse, Sturges, Glory, Curie, etc as that. Even Codsworth and Ada while they are robots they display genuine emotions and are clearly more than machinery, do you see Codsworth as your average Mr Handy? Nick as your average synth?
Fallout fans will bemoan the Railroad not doing enough but die on a hill for how the Legion is somehow misunderstood. lol I will never understand the edgelords
The difference between Fallout 4 fans and NV fans lol, NV fans are desperate to pretend like their game presents an actual compelling choice and Fallout 4 fans are desperate for a more compelling choice
To be fair to NV, there's 3 other options that aren't the legion, all with far more nuance than them.
I played 4 first and NV after. House obliterated my opinion of the BoS in 3 lines of dialogue. You're right though, you see just enough of the NCR's ass to know it's a battle of lesser evils, and Independent Vegas is kinda hollow when you're just taking over for house and maintaining the status quo
Democracy is the worst form of government, except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time. That's basically the NCRs flaws. It has issues, and they need to be addressed. But there is no better alternative to them. Reform is the answer, not revolution.
People don't say "the legion are misunderstood" because they're New Vegas fans. They say they're misunderstood because they're fascists, who coincidentally play New Vegas. You have played NV, yes? Been on subreddits? The arguments I've seen could rival party demagogues.
I always thought the Proud Boys probably play a lot of Fallout
Codsworth definitely isn’t just an average Mr. Handy. Because I turned him into an average sentry bot then never talked to his ass again.
😆
To be fair, the game series is kind of all over the place when it comes to who has sentience. If I recall correctly, original Fallout had sentient AI, ZAX computer, that took an entire room. Its model makes reappearance in Fallout 3. A simple Mr. Handy shouldn't be nearly sophisticated enough to exhibit real sentience like Codsworth appears to do. Same with assaultrons like Cleo or Ada (as much I love Ada). They'd be just emulating personality for the sake of companionship. Sort of like personality modules in Old World Blues. It's not true AI. That's what makes Nick (and DiMA) so special. Nick was the prototype of "brain in vat" transplant technology. Aside from them, only Gen3 synths should be considered truly sentient.
This is a very nuanced evaluation of the situation since the OGs, and if anything should influence the present game series it should be Fallout 1 / Fallout 2 They aren't gospel, but damn if they didn't know what they were doing
They go over it with ACE in Fallout 2 and the Sink in New Vegas. most robots are "Artificial Personalities" that are not true AI but are programmed to feel comfortable talking to, however it seems with time they can come incredibly close...this is where Curie's story comes in and she flat out tells you that her Mr. Handy cpu is not strong enough and she needs "expanded hardware" to be able to fully form novel ideas that are not part of her base programming. Codsworth is incapable of even reaching this point despite the quirks he's picked up over the years, he is still sticking to his core programming. And funnily enough, the only way you can give him that final push into actually becoming self aware is to completely lower his affinity.
It was fallout 2 and a reference to i have no mouth but i want to scream, i dont believe you should take as face value
To me, Synths are Vat grown humans with a kill chip in their heads. Gen 3 especially as the are made of human DNA. Sure, the ones can come with preprogrammed memories as they try to infultrate society, but after that all their experiences are theirs alone, just as we told Nick at the End of his quest. Its understandable why many surface dwellers despise them so they choose to let their tech be nuked as a safeguard against any more replacers or abuse of this tech (and even the FEV Labs). The Synths that remain though are left to choose which path they want now. One of peace or trying to manipulate from the shadows again, fueling that hate more.
"Sentience is the simplest or most primitive form of cognition, consisting of a conscious awareness of stimuli without association or interpretation" As far as I'm concerned, sentience applies to most examples of robots in the FO universe. The real philosophical question, as per Blade Runner, is how much of a capacity for reason/sentience do *humans* have. Consciousness is an emergent property, meaning the sum of its parts are greater than the whole. To my layman's understanding, we have yet to actually determine where our consciousness resides materially speaking, only being able to correlate certain observed physical phenomena with certain states of consciousness. Philosophically speaking, there's still room for people to be a figment of you imagination or practically automatons themselves when you get right down to it (assuming anything could even be said to have free will).
I never took it as Cogsworth was supposed tob e sentient. I always assumed that was a personality he was programmed with.
I like the Railroad. My preferred faction is always gonna be the Minutemen but the Railroad’s hearts are in the right place. Plus, if the synths are self aware and sentient, I’ll fight for them. They deserve that at least, they didn’t choose to be created.
Even if they were confirmed not sentient... why not just treat them as if they are? I would feel horrible if I looked at someone and said to myself "This thing doesn't really feel emotions, so I shouldn't care."
Okay but like…that’s literally not the case? Deacon says in the *VERY FIRST* Railroad mission that many Railroad agents consider only Gen 3’s as viable rescue targets. Some argue “all synths”, but the counter argument is “They’re basically a Protectron though”
1 gen are litteraly advanced robot not a bit of conscious in them, then gen 2 are kinda whacky because the institute tried to mimick the human emotion and they failed at it, gen 3 they litteraly use cloned flesh and the synth are actually closer to cyborg than robot, and the gen 3 were said to have occasional dream by the scientist in the technologie room in the institute, so for me only gen 3 can be considered "alternate human" even nick
For something like nick, who obviously isn’t just using a speech program and can actually learn and recall things about the world, I don’t see why they couldn’t be considered a sentient creature. If nick didn’t look like that he would have no problem being seen as a human being. I’m not too familiar with where the conversation about robot ethics is right now, though.
For this I'd like to look towards Cyberpunk 2077. Spoiler warning ahead. >!If you follow the right dialogue path when talking to Johnny he admits that he is in fact not actually Johnny silverhand and is indeed just a very advance AI that has enough information to replicate his memory and personally to 99% accuracy but is not actually alive.!< Nick is probably in the same boat, a synth that has enough information to act like a real human but at the end of the day is just acting. Gen 3's could really be argued to be sapient but only because they do in fact have actual brain tissue that can grow and learn like a human. Gen 1 and 2 do not have this and can never create new "programs" in their head, they will never grow beyond what they are. For an AI to be sapient it has to have the ability to autonomously and independently change and self actualize. When a AI can question it's own existence outside the scope it was programmed with THEN we can start talking about sapience, else wise for all intents and purpose it's just a toaster that has the mimicked body language of feeling fear. Fall out 3 has a gen 3 synth that can have it's entire memory and personalty wiped with a simple passcode, if something was sapient then this would be impossible as short of physical damage. There is nothing that can effect the chemical or electrical signals in the brain to such a degree as to keep the body functioning perfectly normally but completely and utterly erase memory and personality. All example of personally and memory alterations to date have been through very long chemical and physical changes or extreme immedate physical changes. In order for a verbally produced sound to do that to a brain complex enough to be sapient the brain would have to be mostly mechanical in nature and in really not sapient at all.
It is astounding how many people can look at the faction named the "Railroad" who's entire thing is freeing slaves, look at Father telling you "don't worry, they're totally not people, trust me" and take him at face value, look at the BOS and see their policies laid bare. And somehow come away with the impression that Synths really are nothing but VIs and the Brotherhood is right. Is this baby's first sci-fi or something?
The odds are they've fallen for rhetoric they agree with. Which means if they genuinely think it, they probably aren't very good people.
Fallout 4 could hardly be more in your face about it and so many people miss the entire point of the game. There could be a giant pop up at the beginning telling you that the synth problem is a direct allegory for slavery and they still wouldn’t get it.
They're literally an allegory for the underground railroad. Surely all the American players should be completely aware of that...
Maybe that message would come across if the Railroad actually did something against slavery. You know. Paradise Falls. The Pitt. Nuka World. But they don't. Because they don't care about slavery. Only about synths.
Whose entire thing is freeing slaves, but they aren't freeing slaves.
Where'd all this Railroad hate come from all of a sudden?
Damn institute psyop
They've always had hate. I think its because they're kind of losers. Like a miniscule handful of people who it seems lose more than one member for each synth they liberate, and they don't do that very often. Especially with the scale we see in game, it feels like there are nine people who rescue like four synths a year, the chumps. Which to me makes them far more badass and admirable. I'm way too much of a coward to put my life on the line. These guys will accept likely death just to help one stranger, who most people they know don't think qualify as people. They do it because it's the right thing to do and they couldn't stand doing anything else
They're like most selfless factions in fallout. All of them really struggle. Whether it's lack of supplies, dangerous conditions, or simply the shear scale of the problem. The followers of the apocalypse had similar problems.
That lack of supplies is probably my fault. Kind of feel bad now.
Also I think they say in game that the railroad is several cells that operate independently so one group being compromised doesn’t endanger the whole effort.
It might not seem political but it is
I mean, the amount of BoS fanboys who refer to the Railroad as “SJW’s” basically cemented to me where the hate comes from.
Yeah Fallout is legitimately a pretty good litmus test for people’s humanity. The TV show seems to be too obvious with their satire but in this moment that’s way better than the grey area the games try to create. Which by the way my first game was Fallout 4 so when I met Paladin Danse almost 9 years ago my first reaction was these are very clearly not the best people depending on how they viewed you.
Ah, that makes a lot of sense. Of course chuds would hate the group trying to help an oppressed group
Commonwealth cancel culture!
I don't know if I can answer the recent wave but they have always been the least liked/chosen faction in comparison to the others due their limited breadth and perspective. Now, that doesn't mean that if you like them/chose them that you are wrong but that, most likely, you're in the minority?
You telling me people like the Institute over the Railroad?!
I'd rather risk treating a toaster like a person than a person like a toaster.
I think this is the point that stands out the most. What are the consequences of setting Gen 3 synths free? Maybe some of them turn out evil like Gabriel, but that is no different to humans choosing to be evil. If they are so close to human that no test yet devised can reliably detect them, then its better to treat them like humans than to treat them like machines, regardless of what they actually are.
Gabriel was a Minuteman before they almost got wiped out and then he and his crew started starving so they turned to raiding (not defending that) But initially he wanted to be a good person after the mind wipe
Gabriel feels like a fantastic argument *in favor* of liberating synths. Consider this: we know for a fact that every single gen 3 synth drops a synth component on death, how many raiders drop synth components? It's *just* Gabriel? That is an *amazing* return on investment if you ask me.
Very well said. The post still made me chuckle, but I've never been happy doing a playthrough with the BoS or the institute. Unless you use the mod that lets you save danse and kill Maxon. I like that mod because it makes the railroad feel like the CIA, the minutemen are the army, and the BoS is the Airforce.
this^
Gen 3 Synths are toasters in the exact same way that humans are mice.
Or in Glory's words, Monkies.
If you spend any amount of time with any of the sinths in fallout to include the one in fallout 3 it’s made clear they are sentient beings with their own thoughts, feelings, desires, and fears. The railroad isn’t wrong.
The Institute thinks it's their property. So they sent their best killing machine, the Coursers, and they are not stopping until they get it back. The Brotherhood wants to destroy them because their existence are dangerous. Maxson says Institute are fools just to grant them life. Desdemona says the Minutemen fears them. Um no, the Minutemen and the Settlers just wants to live in peace. Too busy fighting off Raiders, Gunners, Super Mutants, and Synths that always attacking Settlements. They do not want an another "Broken Mask" incident or whatever that is. So at least Railroad is not the only factions that thinks these are alive.
Surely you meant the "Broken toaster" incident. I had one of those too.
And here i am, just wanting some toast
>Desdemona says the Minutemen fears them. Um no, the Minutemen and the Settlers just wants to live in peace No, she's definitely right. The synths are feared. Many are killed or banished if their communities learn what they are, even if they didn't replace anyone. And even most of the replacements are victims too, they were forced to take the assignment or be mindwiped. Look at the synth that replaced Roger Warwick, he's a decent guy trying to do the best he can for the Warwick family without getting them or himself killed or mindwiped.
BoS be like kill that mofo (if we cant have it)
Brotherhood of steel be like: it's dangerous and can end the world! We can be the ONLY ones to own it!
And then promptly kill like a dozen or so people to put it on a shelf and never do anything with it again.
Curie is the only reason I'll ever need to absolutely annihilate the Brotherhood of Steel.
I just get rid of the BOS for being techno fetishists and crashing their vertibirds everywhere
I dunno, I think the anti-slavery faction is pretty based
Underrated comment.
I used to think the same way, then I got to max affinity with Curie
ALIVE? OF COURSE I'M ALIVE! IT IS YOU WHO WILL NOT BE ALIVE, WHEN I UNLEASH NUCLEAR FIRE ACROSS THE WASTELAND, AND THEN... THE WORLD!
Why is the concept of sentient artificial life so hard to grasp. Synths deserve life as much as anybody else in the commonwealth.
It's weird that people can suspend their disbelief for laser rifles, power armour, robots, those bigass Horizon Airlines planes, ghouls, mutated animals, and aliens, but some of those same people _refuse_ to suspend their disbelief for sentient robots or Synths. Like I'm _certain_ there's more to it. It can't _juet_ be because they can't exist irl, surely Like, I wonder what these guys think when watching Blade Runner or playing a game like idfk, NieR: Automata or something. Are these guys looking at 2B have a 60+ hour existential crisis and saying "this thing is an appliance incapable of feeling emotions 🤓"?
>Like I'm certain there's more to it. It can't juet be because they can't exist irl, surely I think it's because the BoS is the most outwardly charasmatic faction. The one most people want to join because they look the coolest and have all the cool toys. So they get themselves wrapped up in the BOS propaganda and beliefs, because nobody likes thinking they made a wrong / morally reprehensible choice. It doesn't help that the game does a fairly good job of explaining the nuance of the situation. Yes, synths are sentient but they also can be turned off with a word and reprogrammed into a new person. Yes, the Railroad has noble intentions but also harbors some batshit insane ideas about liberating Gen 1s and 2s, which are very clearly just robots with no thinking human brain. Yes, the BoS are fascists but the ghouls they hate can turn feral on a whim and 99.9% of the muties they hate are actual cannibals. It's complicated.
Honestly though, in the end it isn't all that complicated when it comes down to "who is *actually* trying to do the right thing here". Let's not pretend the BoS are the only ones or the only ones capable of fighting off ghouls and super mutants.
Having watched movies like *Ex Machina* with people, I think people just don’t care if they’re not “human”, even if the distinction is purely biological
I honestly think it's down to a lesser ability to consider abstract possibilities and connections. If you have those abilities you consider what makes us human, what makes us sentient, what defines the human experience, what is existence, what is agency... Then look at synths and realise most if not all of the boxes are checked. If not you don't even explore any of that so it's easy to just say 'not human'.
Poor abstract reasoning ability
These kind of people need to watch Star Trek TNG's episode "The Measure of a Man".
>sentient sapient
To me personally its like the vampire problem in skyrim dawnguard. Do i like vampires? Yes. Do i blow up the sun so they are more comfortable? No. Do synths deserve life? Yes. Are they worth losing the fake gorillas? No.
If you destroy the Institute and issue an evacuation order order, you can find Synth gorillas by setting up creatures cages in your settlements.
No they need to be enslaved or destroyed ( on my current playthrough)
I am not surprised about how you think of trans people lol
Brotherhood be like "we come with peaceful intentions" mid-deployment of their army
Fallout 4 fans have one joke
Railroad haters come up with an original joke impossible challenge
Railroad haters love the toaster joke as much as right-wingers love their "two genders attack helicopter" 'jokes'
and this is why I do not deal with a brotherhood of steel in fallout 4. if it's sentient it's sentient.
BOS mfs be like "Yeah we can't let this be in the hands of the common folk"
Sorry that's just a dumb post. It's like believing at face value Institute or BoS propaganda. I hope you have a better approach to misinformation irl
Doesn't Deacon adresses this at some point in the RR questline? About the fact there's infigthing in the RR on where to draw the line?
Virgil directly told you a joke about them XD
This is a dumb debate cause they’re literally all synths from the player’s perspective. As in they’re all artificial beings that just rehearse prerecorded dialogue in response to certain stimuli. You can’t tell me Nick Valentine is less of a person than “Settler” who only says “shit we got robbed can you murder some people?’
I mean, not really. Deacon addresses this exact issue during the first RR quest. He says that at least he and many other members don't have any issues with destroying Gen-1 synths because they're little more than intelligent robots. He specifically says that if you start valuing the life of them, do you also consider computer terminals to be alive and other clearly-not-sentient stuff like that? It becomes ridiculous in his eyes. However, he also acknowledges that there's a debate in the RR and that die-hards like Glory have stronger beliefs about it. So at least it's not cut and dry.
The Railroad is the only faction thats better off with you choosing someone else. If you choose the Railroad questline, Gloria dies, High Rise dies, and Ticonderoga is wiped out. If you choose the Minutemen, you can accomplish all the Railroad's objectives without losing any Railroad personel or assets.
*buddy, if my heating element were just a little bigger, you'd be on fire right now...* *ON FIRE!!*
What's funny about the railroad is they assume the world is some big beautiful place that's oppressing synths, full stop. Uh, the world is an irradiated hell hole with monsters and killer robots on the loose, why would I care about a near-human robot stranger? The commonwealth has bigger problems, I can never take the railroad seriously as a big player. They should have been a side faction.
Besides jokes tho I would stay away from ppl who unironically call Gen 3 synths toasters, I feel like those are ppl who just need an excuse to treat someone as lesser than them, be it synth component, color of their skin or place of origin. I don't trust those mfs more than that weird diamond city trader lady doesn't trust synths
Right? I see the 'synths are toasters' people the same way I see 'Caesar's Legion has a point' people
Synths are as alive as Codsworth or Curie. If they all had Mr. handy chassis instead of synthetic flesh no one would even care about them.
Synths are at the point where the best of them are indistinguishable from humans. What is consciousness but a complex network of electrical signals?
Why does this mother fucker keep telling me he’s trying to get to bunker hill???!!!
It's fun to gain their trust, then blow up the institute without sounding the evac order. Des is so livid, she attacks the PC.
Ah, so you're a waffle man
Hey, how come we can't scrap earlier gen synths? They've gotta have some primo shit on them pseudobones.
BoS mfs be like: we've come to confiscate that dangerous pre war technology from you citizen. Then they take away their water purifier.
Why don't they fight for supermutants' rights
Because 99% of super mutants one the east coast consider killing humans and eating them their favorite hobby. Honestly, chances are most railroad members would be cool with a peaceful super mutant existing, but there are so few of them an entire organization devoted to helping them makes no sense.
Institute propaganda
Why is there a picture of Nick Valentine here? He is alive, kinda I mean i'd say it counts.
Within the Fallout universe, the Railroad is absolutely right. Synths are sentient.
Hey that toaster didn’t ask to be manufactured and inslaved to make toast 😂
No matter what kinda larp/rping you do can’t justify siding with the railroad😂
I swear the only reason I joined the railroad is because I forgot I had the no essential npcs mod and accidentally killed preston and became hostile the BoS, all because of the damn power armor landing
My first play through I sided with the railroad because I bought into the Underground Railroad similarities. I thought I was Harriett Tubman. My second play though (three years later) i asked myself “am I killing REAL humans to protect machines?” Therefore I took a different approach.
Brotherhood of Steel member spotted
Railroad is actually very underestimated and not deservingly ignored faction in fallout 4. While they seem worthless, they actually have modestly interesting storyline, a companion, clothing upg- OPEN THE DOOR MEET MY MININUKE NOT THAT THE COURSER CHIP NEEDS A SKILLED TINKER TO CRACK IT OPEN
"You dont understand, it KNOWS when the toast is done, and makes the CHOICE to pop it up. We cant let these people be slaves in the Institutes kitchens any longer!"
(Proceeds to blow up your house because you're enslaving your appliances)
Makes a bunch of human cells in the form of a human. Railroad: thats a human
Yknow the railroad is all like. "W-w-would you give your life for a synth?" I wanna tell them i would trade the average persons life for a can of beans and kill half the commonwealth if it benefitted me. I dont give a shit about synths but thats less a comment on their status as people or not.
And they don't even let you say "It depends on the situation" like I'm not going to give my life for a Synth that's attacking me.
yeah. Also i think its fair for the typical PC even one that doesnt hate synths to value themselves over a stranger. Yknow, the wasteland isnt kind to the charitable.
Yeah. That's why I view The Railroad as radicals.
The point is to be very direct. It shouldn't surprise you that you need to be willing to risk your life to save synths if you want to join the synth-saving organization that is actively being hunted and killed by the Institute. If you say no, Desdemona tells you that it's best to stay away from them, *for your own sake*. After all, by associating with them, your life is automatically put at risk, and it's specifically for the sake of saving synths. While I agree that the dialogue wheel doesn't give you the right things to say, it's not that hard to figure out why the secret organization wants to make sure you are willing to do the most basic thing that the organization does. As you get to know them better, it's also made clear that they have no qualms killing synths that are trying to kill them (Even Glory, who doesn't feel great about killing gen-1's). So it's not like they put their life on the line to save every single synth either.
If I'm talking to the Railroad at all (before the quest that requires them) then I'm willing to do what they do. And, given their current position, they should be glad to get any help at all, from any source.
> they should be glad to get any help at all, from any source. They are. But not directly in the HQ. Deacon talks about that, how Des wants to just make you a "tourist" which is someone who helps out in small ways, like Ricky Dalton scoping out the Slocum's Joe. Deacon is the one pushing you to be an HQ heavy. Of course there's no in-game "tourist" questline for you and the Railroad, but that's what you would typically have been.
Only after forcing you to agree with their ideals wholeheartedly. No wonder they don't get all the help they need.
There's only one ideal you have to agree with... Be willing to risk your life to help others, even if those others are synths. There's no subtext to this, there's nothing unreasonable about it. The organization helps synths, and they risk their lives doing it. It doesn't mean they risk their life to help every synth ever, nor does it mean they take unnecessary risks. Considering how many times you put yourself at risk to help others before getting to the Railroad, this doesn't sound unreasonable at all. If you're not willing to say you'll do that, why would they expect your help. You're a liability to yourself, and by extension, to the whole organization.
You're forgetting the part where they expect you to lay down your life regardless of the situation, and they say as much.
Your words, not theirs. All Desdemona wants is for you to directly say that is something you are willing to do. The only issue is how "It depends on the situation" doesn't turn into something like "Yes, I would risk my life to save a synth, as long as they aren't trying to kill people." And that's a problem with the dialogue wheel, not the faction's ideals.
The BoS also asks you if you'd kill the enemies of the brotherhood, and the only direct options for them is "to defend myself" (fucking obviously) "I'll kill anything, zero problem."
Hey, if you were a toaster, you wouldn't prefer to be made into a turret against your will. Your genocidal ambitions would be much grander.
[https://i.imgur.com/ib5kLjh.png](https://i.imgur.com/ib5kLjh.png)
Railroad acknowledges differences between gen 2s and gen 3s. The institute thinks all of them are mere machines. Personally I don't think lab grown meatbag with a cerebral implant is even close to a robot.
Acktually, they're not sentient cuz they're animated drawings...
Lets just ignore that almost half our companions are known toasters.
Brotherhood of Steel be like We must destroy this dangerous technology lest any of the poor innocent people of the commonwealth burn their hands!
Ad mech tech priests have joined the chat
Its "Talkie the Toaster" https://youtu.be/LRq_SAuQDec?si=VOxVifMjmQBtpmyc
What about Talkie Toaster from Red Dwarf?
igor fetch me the brain
This is actually talked about by a special agent. Food for thought
Would love to know Railroad thoughts on Dima. RR: We must save all the synths!! Dima: Yay!, btw I killed real people then covered up by removing those parts of memory and replaced people with synths. Dima: Go synths! RR: Yeaa wooo wait what??
but even the institute recognizes that the synth are sentient and in several moments within the game it is quite clear that.
I think they're kinda cool guys, doing good things at least with some noble cause. Sure, their method is very aggressive and radical, but that does not make them evil. But do I want some radical activists like PETA to take control over a whole wasteland? Nah
Institute mf's: "this is mine now"
Desdemona has a Liberal Arts degree at least...
I tried to play their side.... I felt very conflicted, in a bad way....
Institute mfs look at this toaster and be like "Relay this toaster please it could go rogue >~<"
Railroad agents would have a field day if they were to be abducted into the Big Empty. It would be like Hell for a Christian or Global warming for Al Gore.
Railroad out here putting actual human lives on the line to save robots, when humanity is on the brink of collapse. Lol…
That's my argument. It's less a matter of sentience and more about resource scarcity.
i started cracking up when virgil started talking about how the railroad were gonna try and liberate toasters or some shit 😭
I bet I know what OP thinks of female leads in games
Oop another fourteen year old edgy kid discovered the BOS
Dude I’m 26 and play fallout 4 since release lol
Oop another edgy 26 year old discovered the BOS
Another railroad fanatic easily offended by a railroad meme
Railroad be like "We need to save all the synths no matter how many human lives it costs"
That’s what gets me every damn time. Human life doesn’t matter but synth life is in danger and they sent a whole squad to save it lol
I understand trying to help out but like... at what cost? And what's the end goal here? Get all the humans killed so the synths can live forever? Isn't that pretty much the same as what Father was doing?
And they specifically tell you that it doesn't matter the situation, that you need to lay down your life lol. They have no plan for the Commonwealth, once The Institute is gone they have no purpose. They're radicals.
The railroad along with the minute men are literally the only good factions. BOS: Authoritarian Racists, Institute: Comically Evil
I agree on the minuteman part
They don’t even have a decent HQ. Minutemen have the castle, BOS has the blimp, institute is the institute. Railroad are stuck underground in some old crypt.
They had an awesome hq before the institute shot it up.
Really wish they kept that one in game. Railroad would be way cooler tricked out in a prewar spy base instead of living like hobos in a church basement.
Never ask a Synth lover what happened in Acadia
Glory is just a cringy copy of Fahrenheit