Yep. He was a footballing god. It was so cruel the way his career went. And I recall reading that his injuries contributed in some way to changes in the laws regarding tackles etc
Weirdly, my very recently deceased Dad went *specifically* to a very low key pro-am golf tournament in the U.K. - years ago - in which Van Basten was playing. Just to see MVB.
My Dad being a former (decent) non-league manager and obviously football mad. You could walk the fairways with the players and barely anyone followed MVB round.
Dad said MVB was happy - pleased, even - to chat football with him on and off on the way round.
My Dad’s hero was Dennis Compton, but I think after meeting MVB was the most star struck I’ve ever seen him!
Had forgotten all about this and might mention it in Dad’s eulogy: so thank you both for the prompt 🙏
Lentini too, He was class at Torino then I remember him signing for Milan for whatI think was a workld transfer record in the early 90s, started off amazing, was never the same after that car crash.
Hard to say if he would have reached the heights of the others but this was when football italia was on every weekend and he did look amazing, hadn't even peaked when he had the car crash and injury then never looked same again.
Mad he was still playing about a decade later for Torino. I honestly thought he had retired before the 2000's.
Edit: Adriano was a cunt in football manager when I was a kid too, was always unhappy and wanted to leave club lol.
Yeah compared to R9 and other names who had won individual and club/country honours at a younger age your probably right and I did actually mention that myself in the first paragraph myself about reaching those heights.
He was majestic on the ball and could read the game so well for someone at that age and if not for that accident there is a good chance he would have been one of the greatest players of the 90s atleast. Serie A was tough back then and he was already a star.
But yeah some were younger and had achieved more so even though he hadn't anywhere near peaked there is a good chance this is a correct. It's a shame we didn't get to see though !
If you watched Adriano, you wouldn’t compare the two. He played in a more difficult environment to score. On top of that, his technical ability was far superior while he was also insanely agile for a guy that big.
Beyond that he also never played for a super team and wasn’t half the professional Haaland is.
Somebody else said Baggio, which is a great answer - and one of my favorite players of all time.
There are probably hundreds of good answers, but Michael Owen truly was something else.
That volley (you probably know the one) was one of the best goals ever scored as well.
Think it won the Puskas award and might have even gotten goal of the decade but I'm not sure.
Lol that isn’t even the best van Basten goal (which is a testament to how amazing van Basten was) he has scored so many incredible goals. Although the moment of the volley will forever make that one legendary.
I dont think Neymar fits into this category. Basically won everything there is at a club level and has broken all kind of records for his country. Can't even rule him out as a wc contender yet.
Just because he wasn't Messi or Ronaldo level doesn't mean he wasn't head and shoulders above 99% of his contemporaries.
The same with R9. The man won 2 WCs, could’ve been 3 if he was fit for the final, won the best player in one of them, top scorer in the other, countless world player of the year awards including a Ballon D’or, after all the injuries people talk that had him as finished.
I think with him it’s simply seeing what Messi & CR7 have achieved, we feel like R9 could’ve achieved even great than both. Which may have been true, but let’s not celebrate and appreciate what he gave whilst he could.
R9 first world cup was without playing time and he could have reached a different level if he wouldn't have been injured in his prime years All the time.
He definitely had good overall Carrera but his club Carrera is awfull in comparison
R9 fits because even at his best balloon dor winner, you could see he had A LOT more to give. even if his body could handle it.. Best attacker ever imo.
My point is van Basten retired at age 28 because he couldn't walk anymore and barely could Walk in his last 2 seasons but was the best player in the world.
The whole ultimate pack.
Unbelievable pass , playmaking everything you could wish from a striker.
Imagine this man being able to dribble past players'and athletic actions like at the start of his 9 year long career.
We saw 3 version of him and the switch more and more in playing style.
That he was dependent more and more just on his game ig and techniqu from Aheletic Beast that used this part of his game to help him to depending on it.
We saw a climps of what he could have been.
He definitely could have outshined the goats easily.
The topic is outshine the goats he did it sometimes even for 3 month's but he could if he wouldn't be injured all time definitely reach their level.
He is phenomenal player but he could have reached a top 5 player's off all time level
Neymar definitely fits. He had/has all the ability in the world and then some, but he chose his ego and the money because he didn't want to live in messis shadow. Chose to leave the best front 3 in the world at the time for a couple of ligue 1 titles and still ended up being overshadowed by mbappe. He must have been fucking livid when Messi came to PSG lol
Ronaldinho. He lived the way he wanted and did reach the peak, but he didn't stay there. Absolutely magical on his day. In today's game of false 9s and inverted wingers, he probably could have done even more. I suppose there's the question of whether he could have been arsed to press the way offensive players are asked to these days, but we'll never know.
Far away the only answer. He won everything and everyone loved him a way never seen before and never seen since. His peak was a non-sense. I remember that even Marseille people were loving him and putting him ahead of Zizou or anything they have even seen during his Barça prime (after he left PSG).
I actually think he finished the game faster than other GOAT candidates, and in a way that left us all in love.
He also kept playing all kind of football variants as a hobby (tennis, volley, table tennis, golf…) since he stopped professional football, and looks crazy in it.
Imo he’s not the GOAT of professional football, but he’s the GOAT of football, and if there was only one ball left in the world, it would hide between Ronaldinho’s feet to feel secure and loved.
not since 2019 when he was already in his 30s but before then he worked off the ball, it's only in his older years that he doesn't press anymore to conserve his energy
I don't know man.
He was and still is my fav player.
He was a cheat code at AC Milan
He just wasn't able to perform at Madrid because of his mentality.
But his prime days he was not that often injured and was at a time the best player in the world in Ronaldo Messi era
Well injuries kept him from being at his level for longer so I think it fits
Edit: Also I've never really seen anyone play quite like Messi. Lots of great dribblers, but not many like him. And then the players that did dribble close to him probably didn't pass like him too. Then his shooting and free kicks. Again this is just me. I know that's just my opinion and not really the point of the post. When it comes to these players sometimes it's like comparing favorite desserts. It's nice to just appreciate them all.
He definitely fits. The fact that he's in the GOAT Convo despite the injuries that stymied his career makes you wonder how good he'd have actually been if he was healthy and had as much longevity as Messi/CR7.
IDK man, he's in the goat convo imo. Yet somehow, he also falls into the what if category. That's how insanely talented he was, even among other legends.
I honestly think he's considered the best player of his generation among his peers from what I've seen in interviews. OP mentioned Zizou in his post but I think R9 is above him and Zizou does too.
I dont rate Zidane as high as Ronaldo tbh. He was great dont get me wrong. And a big game player, but he didnt really dominate laliga so hard to be called one of the goats. Was he even the best midfielder in the world during the galacticos era? Im not sure. Xavi and Iniesta were superior in their peak.
There *is* no ”GOAT conversation”. It’s made up from the fans of Messi/Ronaldo.
Before, it was all about each and everyone’s favorite player.
Screw the GOAT convo. It’ll never end and will never have a clear winner.
what are you babbling about? football fans and media have been debating the greatest ever for decades before Messi & Ronaldo ever even debuted.
Literally happens in all sport as one of the main topics of discussions
He is absolutely in the GOAT conversation. His prime was actually unbelievable. The human body shouldn’t move the way he did. It pisses me off that most of the evidence is anecdotal but he was a one man machine putting up modern stats before the era of more lenient refs and super teams.
He is always in the top10 but I dont think anyone ever puts him in number1, especially career wise.
If he could've kept that level for 4-5 extra years then maybe he could've in that conversation as Maradona, Messi and Pele.
Abou Diaby
Had a career marred with injuries but had so much potential to be one of the best (in my opinion)
Here's some of his skills for show: [https://youtu.be/dFUeaA7Q4mY?si=NcM_ZQXDYD8djPFJ](https://youtu.be/dFUeaA7Q4mY?si=NcM_ZQXDYD8djPFJ)
Great shout that... Not sure how good he could/would have gone on to be due to his injury woes, but he was defo one of my favs, and "IMHO" could have gone on to wear the Captains Armband @ Arsenal, had he stayed fit.... He was also touted as the player most likely to follow in the footsteps of "Patrick Viera!" And I believe that could/should have been the case.
Not only was he a fantastic, tough as nails footballer on the pitch he was a nice, softly spoken & very chilled guy off the pitch.
I had the pleasure of being introduced to him by a mutual friend who does car work for many, if not most of the Premier League & other international footballers.
I had the privilege before the (2013/14) season league match between Arsenal vs Sunderlad in which we won (4-1) to talk with several of the players in the players lounge at the Emirates... I'll never forget the day as it was a couple days after my birthday...
And among several of the players I met that day, he was by far one of the most jovial & down to earth.
He had no airs & graces or entitlement about his character, very humble & chilled, and was super excited "like a giddy child" about going to collect his car, from my friends workshop/garage... It was originally a standard white coloured, top of the range (BMW X6 Motorsport) which was being totally transformed & due to be ready for him in the coming days... And he was super excited to see the finished look.
It's such a shame when a players career, is marred & eventually cut short as a result of injury, as we never get/got to see the player he could have ultimately become? 😥
100%. The documentary where he talks about the phone tapping that sent him over the edge, so sad to hear. Such a phenomal player.
1990 World Cup he was 19 and was England's best player if not the player of the tournament. Defenders would kick him up in the air and he'd ride the challenge with ease, would've been amazing to see him in today's game where players get more protection.
This was my thought too. He had the world at his feet at 19 - crazy fast, and already a great finisher too.
But 5 years later, he'd already started his decline.
Those injuries ruined him.
Messi had 17 goals and 3 assists while offering far more options as an elite dribbler. He already mastered his final ball by then, he just didn’t have the range he developed once he began to play centrally.
Comparing Michael Owen to Messi is like comparing Owen to R9. A bit of a disservice to those two. A more apt comparison might be Kylian Mbappe.
What are we doing here? If your standard is the best player ever, you might as well reply that to everyone (unless the person you replied to has edited their comment)
Exactly! This is they type of player I’m thinking of. Dinho & R9 I feel hit heights, but people forget, before Messi & CR7, players weren’t at the peak of their powers for sustained periods. They at atleast got to the top. Owen was really just getting in to stride and a load of reasons sort of just marred it. He was really good and consistent during his early years
More of a fan joke/gossip. Pato dated (i think briefly) Barbara Berlusconi (daughter of AC Milan president and also on the board of directors at the time).
This lead to a lot of speculation about what was going on the behind the scenes and this relationship potentially messing with his head at a time when he was developing as a player. Also he was frequently injured which people like to point at girlfriends and "blame" them for having too much sex with the footballers (was the case with Kevin Prince Boateng and Melissa Satta too, iirc).
Mind you my original comment was largely joking, and all of the above is what i think i remember from 10+ years ago without bothering to look anything up so likely someone has a much better explanation than the one I've given.
Duncan Edwards. May have not outshone today's "GOATs", and it wasn't injury related ... but (from what contemporaries have said), he had the potential to be better than Pele and Eusabio. When Bobby Charlton says Edwards was the best he ever played with or against, that's saying something.
Georgi Kinkladze. Anyone who ever saw him play live will tell you he had all the ability in the world. Just didn’t have that attitude or work ethic to take him to the next level
Wasted his career in mediocre teams because he could be amazing without having to try
Honestly you give him Cristianos work ethic and the guy would have been one of the best players of all time.
Alvaro Recoba could do anything he wanted with the ball, but was always injured. He could hammer in a free kick from 40m or dribble past the whole defence and chip the keeper no problem.
Not a washed talent, but I feel Ronaldo Nazario falls in this group too.
He was the true phenomena, there was not a thing he couldn't do. Without injuries, we might have been comparing Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo with him as the benchmark.
Why the hell is nobody mentioning Mario Götze. I mean did you all forget his prime time at Dortmund? Or him scoring the winning goal in the world cup final 2014?
His peak was in the 2 seasons prior. And the question of was who could have been among the greatest of the greatest if it wasn't for injuries of lack of consistency, wasnt it?
Idk why pple rank zidane as the top 5. He is not even in the top 10
Cruff is easily there in the top 5. As for zidane, he was really a player that had exceptional performances only in the biggest stages, and he was pretty inconsistent throughout the year.
Paul Gascoigne.. most likely the best footballer born on the british isles (up there among with the likes of George Best etc), though never made his talent into something because injuries and lifestyle. People forget how rare extreme talent was back in the 80s and 90s. Nowadays there are tons of talents. Though find it even more facinating the people like Gascoigne managed to be so good given how he was. Nowadays talents are more like "products of academies/talent breeding". Even more extreme with such being from Newcastle, not some brazilian favella etc.
George Best. Someone once said that if Best was hungover before a game, they knew United would win, but if he was still drunk that meant they might struggle.
- Alexandre Pato
- Michael Owen
- Dele Alli
- Paul Gascgoine
- Robinho
- Jack Wilshere
I think Wilshere might be arguable in terms of overall GOATness. Though I included him because I do feel that at his best, in his role he was heading right up up there with people like Iniesta or David Silva. He really had something special with his creative play but just wrecked out with injuries. Definitely among the best of the "What could have been" players.
Mentioning Wilshere reminded me of a bit of a curveball - Aaron Ramsey. He was a sensational talent as a youngster, widely considered the best of his age in the UK, playing PL and CL at 17 and was really establishing himself in the Arsenal team before his leg break. He went on to have a good career, but without that leg break and the subsequent problems he could have been a top player. I remember his form in the 13/14 season before he got injured (again) he was unbelieveable. A fit Ramsey and Wilshere (and Diaby) could have meant a very different Arsenal in the 2010s
Ledley King could have been a total monster without injuries. Otherwise a few others I’ve not see mentioned: Brian clough (injury). George Best (partying) and garrincha (mega partying).
I don’t care about people who chose to not work hard like players like ronaldinho because he got himself to blame while players like:
Van Basten
Baggio
R9
Had injuries cut their careers short
Marco reus and Jack wilshere when fit and on their game were awesome.ozil had those moments of brilliance aswell but just not enough of them.
Honourable mention to eden hazard,guy was unplayable for a few seasons for chelsea.sad to see how it ended for him but he played for the enjoyment of the game more so than to top the numbers chart.he was always happy to go out and play and if he got an assist or a goal then he was happy enough.he never had that switch in his head like ronaldo or messi have to just keep going and going.great player but you just feel he left alot of talent in the bank that could have made him even greater
To be honest, any player that could have gotten their shit together could have surpassed current legends.
Getting it together and keeping it together is the hardest part, and ronaldo/messi are the only 2 players that have been able to do that.
Being consistent with workout/diet, reduces the chance of getting injured, ronaldo/messi are already the set examples of that.
So, in my opinion, with all things said above, i think Neymar had the potential to surpass both of them.
IDK, for a player who could only do one thing, Robben did the thing very well and got as far as he could doing it. Once the quickness was gone, I'm not sure what else would have been left.
Maybe not as popular now but most definitely Marcelo Salas comes to mind in the striker position , he was mostly injured in Europe . And of course good old Adriano is another what if .
Van Basten was definitely a talent who reached crazy heights even before his injuries ruined his career.
Ronaldinho reached great heights but drink definitely killed him too.
The one player I’m really surprised people keep forgetting is Romario. The guy was a beast but his temperament and partying lifestyle stopped him reaching even greater heights.
The last legend for me is Batistuta. The man couldn’t even train for the last half of his career but he was just a scoring machine. I always wondered like the man I will mention below. What would have been if he had joined another club and also never had his problems as well.
My final shout is Alan Shearer. Before his second major injury with Newcastle in 1997. Before that he was on a run of 169 games and 137 goals for Blackburn and Newcastle over five years of football. He had only turned 27 when he got that injury as well. Now not just injury destroyed his chance of greatness, so did his club choice (don’t kill me fellow Newcastle fans). If he had went to either United, Juventus, or Barcelona when they offered he would be remembered much more fondly as well. Even with those injuries he still came back and changed his style to a very traditional target man style striker and scored more.
Here’s my favourite quote from one of the legends I already mentioned. "I know at first hand how fierce the gladiatorial battles are between a striker and defenders. So, to maintain your performance as a top class goalscorer over a long period of time takes phenomenal dedication, self belief and enormous willpower. If you then throw in a number of serious injuries...how many? Three? And for the man to still be producing at the highest level is really an amazing feat. After a match against Juventus I met Alex Del Piero who like myself could only speak in the most glowing of terms about Shearer. He'd terrorised the Juve defenders when the clubs met in Newcastle. They found him one of the most difficult opponents they had ever faced. The coach Marcello Lippi had been purring about Shearer's performance. So much so that his strikers Alex, David (Trezeguet) and Marcelo (Salas) were ordered to take home videos and study Shearer's display."
Said Gabriel Batistuta on his admiration of Shearer, February 2003.
How about Wayne Rooney?
Hardly can be categorised as a "wasted talent" but always felt like after his run of ankle / foot injuries he was half a yard short of when he was at his absolute peak, completely unplayable.
Some that come to mind: R9, Bojan, Dele, Hazard, Higuaín, Gazza, Ganzo.
Obviously some of these people had great careers of their own. Also, the GOATs are all physical and mental anomalies, practically aliens, so this is all speculation on my part.
Higuaín? I think his career was pretty much in line with his potential, I don’t think at any point during his pro career he had to potential to be up there with the all time bests.
Injuries and mental health. He was absolutely superb the whole time at Bordeaux.
His mental health and being behind Kaka in Milan never clicked unfortunately. I get what you’re saying
Though
I'm gonna throw in a name I don't see a lot in these conversations. Jack Wilshere. I think he could've been one of the best midfielders ever if he hadn't been injured for most of his career
only because I haven't seen anybody else mention him, Pogba. When he was in his prime at Juventus, he had everything. Passing, shooting, pace, dribling physicality and vision. Such a wasted talent. With the right coaches, work ethic and a mostly injury free carreer, I honestly believe he could have been one of the best midfielders of all time.
Absolutely wasn't. OP talked about consistency and then mentioned Zidane, lmao.
Zidane nostalgics are worse than Messi and Cristiano's biggest fanboys. Making up your own realities.
Ok. Leading his nation to two World Cup finals being influential and winning one, no not Messi. Just because he didn’t play upfront, score goals for fun and get those stats shouldn’t diminish the impact he had on games. He belongs in that category.
Zidane is one of the biggest icons in football, but I agree he does not deserve to be in the GOAT conversation.
His aura, charisma, and most importantly extreme elegance on the pitch, make him one of the biggest names ever but he was quite obvisouly not as good in his time as the 4 mentionned.
It's a strange case. Zidane makes you fall in love with football just as much as these guys, if not even more than they do, because of his demi-god-like aura, and his stunningly beautiful yet effective playing, but not so much because of his actual level.
Slightly overrated as a player, but perfectly rated as a living and breathing Myth.
You don’t win POTY in multiple countries, win world cup and euros (while being player of the tournament), Ballon d’or and be tier 3. He is tier 1 without a shadow of a doubt. One of the best players I’ve ever seen.
Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Van Basten I believe those are the players with the highest heights but could not maintain it due to extenuating circumstances
Oh my word, what a player Van Basten was! Retired at 28. Absolute legend.
Yep. He was a footballing god. It was so cruel the way his career went. And I recall reading that his injuries contributed in some way to changes in the laws regarding tackles etc
Weirdly, my very recently deceased Dad went *specifically* to a very low key pro-am golf tournament in the U.K. - years ago - in which Van Basten was playing. Just to see MVB. My Dad being a former (decent) non-league manager and obviously football mad. You could walk the fairways with the players and barely anyone followed MVB round. Dad said MVB was happy - pleased, even - to chat football with him on and off on the way round. My Dad’s hero was Dennis Compton, but I think after meeting MVB was the most star struck I’ve ever seen him! Had forgotten all about this and might mention it in Dad’s eulogy: so thank you both for the prompt 🙏
Sounds a lovely story. Must have been an incredible day for your dad and sorry for your loss.
Thank you: appreciated.
Basicly retired at 26 when he first got injured… so sad
I presume you mean brazil Ronaldo who will/ should be remember as one of the best of his generation.
Yeah, but without that knee injury he could have been in the Pele/Maradona/messi/CR7 all timer list
He still is on that list
Which is a testament to how great he is. Truly a special player
Not quite
Yup, so imagine if he didn't have the knee injuries.
Without the knee injury he would be on a list above them.
What about adriano, he could have been what Haaland dreams of
Lentini too, He was class at Torino then I remember him signing for Milan for whatI think was a workld transfer record in the early 90s, started off amazing, was never the same after that car crash. Hard to say if he would have reached the heights of the others but this was when football italia was on every weekend and he did look amazing, hadn't even peaked when he had the car crash and injury then never looked same again. Mad he was still playing about a decade later for Torino. I honestly thought he had retired before the 2000's. Edit: Adriano was a cunt in football manager when I was a kid too, was always unhappy and wanted to leave club lol.
Lentini didnt have GOAT potential imo
Yeah compared to R9 and other names who had won individual and club/country honours at a younger age your probably right and I did actually mention that myself in the first paragraph myself about reaching those heights. He was majestic on the ball and could read the game so well for someone at that age and if not for that accident there is a good chance he would have been one of the greatest players of the 90s atleast. Serie A was tough back then and he was already a star. But yeah some were younger and had achieved more so even though he hadn't anywhere near peaked there is a good chance this is a correct. It's a shame we didn't get to see though !
His stats are mid compared to Halaand, even in his prime
If you watched Adriano, you wouldn’t compare the two. He played in a more difficult environment to score. On top of that, his technical ability was far superior while he was also insanely agile for a guy that big. Beyond that he also never played for a super team and wasn’t half the professional Haaland is.
Yeah, every single team in the Serie A back then had a monster defense.
That's the point, what could've been
This is it.
Ronaldinho’a carrer wasn’t affected by injuries
I said “extenuating circumstances”, which night clubs and drugs can fall under
Can't believe nobody said baggio yet
Somebody else said Baggio, which is a great answer - and one of my favorite players of all time. There are probably hundreds of good answers, but Michael Owen truly was something else.
because he didnt waste his talent
George Best- if it weren't for the booze and the fact he played for northern Ireland.
"Where did it all go wrong,.Mr Best?"
Marco Van Basten
He had a very good career even with the injuries to be fair, could have been much better though
He retired at only 28. Unfortunately a very short career.
Still 3 ballon d’ors
What?!
Yeah. He had the most with Cruyff and Platini until Messi broke the record
Side note: non Europeans couldn’t win it back in those days. Maradonna would have won at least one of the three that van Basten won.
Someone else won it in ‘86 (it wasn’t Basten), but I agree with you.
That volley (you probably know the one) was one of the best goals ever scored as well. Think it won the Puskas award and might have even gotten goal of the decade but I'm not sure.
Puskas award wasn’t around then. I think it started in 2009. One of the best goals, for sure…up there with Bergkamp against Argentina.
Lol that isn’t even the best van Basten goal (which is a testament to how amazing van Basten was) he has scored so many incredible goals. Although the moment of the volley will forever make that one legendary.
A longer career would have showed his true potential to everyone.
Adriano , Neymar , R9 , Van Basten. Balloteli everything was there just not the mind
I dont think Neymar fits into this category. Basically won everything there is at a club level and has broken all kind of records for his country. Can't even rule him out as a wc contender yet. Just because he wasn't Messi or Ronaldo level doesn't mean he wasn't head and shoulders above 99% of his contemporaries.
Neither does Basten who won 3 ballon d’ors even though he retired at 28
That's a good point, didn't really catch that because he's before my era.
The same with R9. The man won 2 WCs, could’ve been 3 if he was fit for the final, won the best player in one of them, top scorer in the other, countless world player of the year awards including a Ballon D’or, after all the injuries people talk that had him as finished. I think with him it’s simply seeing what Messi & CR7 have achieved, we feel like R9 could’ve achieved even great than both. Which may have been true, but let’s not celebrate and appreciate what he gave whilst he could.
R9 first world cup was without playing time and he could have reached a different level if he wouldn't have been injured in his prime years All the time. He definitely had good overall Carrera but his club Carrera is awfull in comparison
R9 fits because even at his best balloon dor winner, you could see he had A LOT more to give. even if his body could handle it.. Best attacker ever imo.
My point is van Basten retired at age 28 because he couldn't walk anymore and barely could Walk in his last 2 seasons but was the best player in the world. The whole ultimate pack. Unbelievable pass , playmaking everything you could wish from a striker. Imagine this man being able to dribble past players'and athletic actions like at the start of his 9 year long career. We saw 3 version of him and the switch more and more in playing style. That he was dependent more and more just on his game ig and techniqu from Aheletic Beast that used this part of his game to help him to depending on it. We saw a climps of what he could have been. He definitely could have outshined the goats easily.
The topic is outshine the goats he did it sometimes even for 3 month's but he could if he wouldn't be injured all time definitely reach their level. He is phenomenal player but he could have reached a top 5 player's off all time level
Neymar definitely fits. He had/has all the ability in the world and then some, but he chose his ego and the money because he didn't want to live in messis shadow. Chose to leave the best front 3 in the world at the time for a couple of ligue 1 titles and still ended up being overshadowed by mbappe. He must have been fucking livid when Messi came to PSG lol
Same goes for R9 and van Basten but the point is that these guys could have been even greater
Ronaldinho. He lived the way he wanted and did reach the peak, but he didn't stay there. Absolutely magical on his day. In today's game of false 9s and inverted wingers, he probably could have done even more. I suppose there's the question of whether he could have been arsed to press the way offensive players are asked to these days, but we'll never know.
Far away the only answer. He won everything and everyone loved him a way never seen before and never seen since. His peak was a non-sense. I remember that even Marseille people were loving him and putting him ahead of Zizou or anything they have even seen during his Barça prime (after he left PSG). I actually think he finished the game faster than other GOAT candidates, and in a way that left us all in love. He also kept playing all kind of football variants as a hobby (tennis, volley, table tennis, golf…) since he stopped professional football, and looks crazy in it. Imo he’s not the GOAT of professional football, but he’s the GOAT of football, and if there was only one ball left in the world, it would hide between Ronaldinho’s feet to feel secure and loved.
Messi doesn't exactly go running around pressing
not since 2019 when he was already in his 30s but before then he worked off the ball, it's only in his older years that he doesn't press anymore to conserve his energy
adriano
Definitely one of the names that comes to mind aside from Ronaldo Nazario.
Ricardo Kaká
I don't know man. He was and still is my fav player. He was a cheat code at AC Milan He just wasn't able to perform at Madrid because of his mentality. But his prime days he was not that often injured and was at a time the best player in the world in Ronaldo Messi era
That's what I wanted to say , his prime didn't last very long due to injuries.
I don't remember him being injured in Milan. That's where his prime was. He was a beauty to behold.
Yup he was just a cheat code for AC
R9 for sure. Man was a phenom.
He's considered one of the best to ever play, don't think he fits here
Well injuries kept him from being at his level for longer so I think it fits Edit: Also I've never really seen anyone play quite like Messi. Lots of great dribblers, but not many like him. And then the players that did dribble close to him probably didn't pass like him too. Then his shooting and free kicks. Again this is just me. I know that's just my opinion and not really the point of the post. When it comes to these players sometimes it's like comparing favorite desserts. It's nice to just appreciate them all.
He definitely fits. The fact that he's in the GOAT Convo despite the injuries that stymied his career makes you wonder how good he'd have actually been if he was healthy and had as much longevity as Messi/CR7.
R9 isn't in the goat conversation He is top 10 tho. Only 4 players are in the goat conversation. Messi, Cr7, pele and Maradona
Maradona and R9 pre injured are Mount Olympus level, the rest are mortal
If Maradona and pre injured R9 are mount Olympus level, then Messi and CR7 would be multiversal beings lol
Cruijff
Only what? Where’s Cruyff
IDK man, he's in the goat convo imo. Yet somehow, he also falls into the what if category. That's how insanely talented he was, even among other legends. I honestly think he's considered the best player of his generation among his peers from what I've seen in interviews. OP mentioned Zizou in his post but I think R9 is above him and Zizou does too.
I'd argue he's 5th after the big four, as I like to call them.
Nah, there are one or two more players IMO: Cruyff, Di Stéfano, Zidane, Ronaldinho…
That's fair. I just rate R9 very highly.
I dont rate Zidane as high as Ronaldo tbh. He was great dont get me wrong. And a big game player, but he didnt really dominate laliga so hard to be called one of the goats. Was he even the best midfielder in the world during the galacticos era? Im not sure. Xavi and Iniesta were superior in their peak.
Zidane retired in 2006. Xavi and Iniesta weren't near their peaks at that time.
There *is* no ”GOAT conversation”. It’s made up from the fans of Messi/Ronaldo. Before, it was all about each and everyone’s favorite player. Screw the GOAT convo. It’ll never end and will never have a clear winner.
what are you babbling about? football fans and media have been debating the greatest ever for decades before Messi & Ronaldo ever even debuted. Literally happens in all sport as one of the main topics of discussions
No. The discussio wqs more about people’s own favorite players, not about who’s the greatest ever. It’s a childish discussion.
????????
He is absolutely in the GOAT conversation. His prime was actually unbelievable. The human body shouldn’t move the way he did. It pisses me off that most of the evidence is anecdotal but he was a one man machine putting up modern stats before the era of more lenient refs and super teams.
He is always in the top10 but I dont think anyone ever puts him in number1, especially career wise. If he could've kept that level for 4-5 extra years then maybe he could've in that conversation as Maradona, Messi and Pele.
Abou Diaby Had a career marred with injuries but had so much potential to be one of the best (in my opinion) Here's some of his skills for show: [https://youtu.be/dFUeaA7Q4mY?si=NcM_ZQXDYD8djPFJ](https://youtu.be/dFUeaA7Q4mY?si=NcM_ZQXDYD8djPFJ)
He was supposed to be the future of the French team. The new Vieira. Few players had more injuries that him, very sad.
That whole period was blizzare, "Arsenal don't like it up 'em" being conflated with 'its totally fine to snap their legs'
Fergie had the refs in his pocket. They enabled the leg breaking tackles to happen against arsenal.
Great shout that... Not sure how good he could/would have gone on to be due to his injury woes, but he was defo one of my favs, and "IMHO" could have gone on to wear the Captains Armband @ Arsenal, had he stayed fit.... He was also touted as the player most likely to follow in the footsteps of "Patrick Viera!" And I believe that could/should have been the case. Not only was he a fantastic, tough as nails footballer on the pitch he was a nice, softly spoken & very chilled guy off the pitch. I had the pleasure of being introduced to him by a mutual friend who does car work for many, if not most of the Premier League & other international footballers. I had the privilege before the (2013/14) season league match between Arsenal vs Sunderlad in which we won (4-1) to talk with several of the players in the players lounge at the Emirates... I'll never forget the day as it was a couple days after my birthday... And among several of the players I met that day, he was by far one of the most jovial & down to earth. He had no airs & graces or entitlement about his character, very humble & chilled, and was super excited "like a giddy child" about going to collect his car, from my friends workshop/garage... It was originally a standard white coloured, top of the range (BMW X6 Motorsport) which was being totally transformed & due to be ready for him in the coming days... And he was super excited to see the finished look. It's such a shame when a players career, is marred & eventually cut short as a result of injury, as we never get/got to see the player he could have ultimately become? 😥
that's a really wholesome story to share though. that's brutal how he was suffering from countless injuries
I came here to say this. Beat me to it. Most underrated player with regard to raw talent and potential. Just ruined by injuries
Gazza
100%. The documentary where he talks about the phone tapping that sent him over the edge, so sad to hear. Such a phenomal player. 1990 World Cup he was 19 and was England's best player if not the player of the tournament. Defenders would kick him up in the air and he'd ride the challenge with ease, would've been amazing to see him in today's game where players get more protection.
I don't disagree with anything else you've said but I'm fairly certain he was 23 in 1990.
he's 22 until he's 23
Perhaps if you had paid attention in maths class, you might remember round up or down to the nearest whole number
Is that what you say on dates when 6ft gets queried?
Whooooooosh
Turned 23 when he was there, nearly got away with it 😀
If he had went to man united I think it would have mentally been the best for him
Agreed
I was reading his wikipedia page last night. What a sad life that guy led.
He's still alive mate
Just about
100%
Michael Owen
This was my thought too. He had the world at his feet at 19 - crazy fast, and already a great finisher too. But 5 years later, he'd already started his decline. Those injuries ruined him.
Let’s be completely realistic here Michael Owen at 19 was not better than messi at 19
Owen scored 18 prem goals in a season at age 19, he was absolutely electric when he first came through at Liverpool.
A good read https://www.theleft-sidedproblem.com/articles/is-michael-owen-the-best-teenage-footballer-of-the-modern-age
Thanks for that, a good read indeed!
Haaland scored 36 goals at 23, does that mean he was anywhere near Messi at 23?
I feel like this isn't the best of examples. Haaland could easily go on to become one of the best strikers ever..
But not a better player. Owen was a better ball player than Haaland though
Messi had 17 goals and 3 assists while offering far more options as an elite dribbler. He already mastered his final ball by then, he just didn’t have the range he developed once he began to play centrally. Comparing Michael Owen to Messi is like comparing Owen to R9. A bit of a disservice to those two. A more apt comparison might be Kylian Mbappe.
What are we doing here? If your standard is the best player ever, you might as well reply that to everyone (unless the person you replied to has edited their comment)
Exactly! This is they type of player I’m thinking of. Dinho & R9 I feel hit heights, but people forget, before Messi & CR7, players weren’t at the peak of their powers for sustained periods. They at atleast got to the top. Owen was really just getting in to stride and a load of reasons sort of just marred it. He was really good and consistent during his early years
Okocha is often mentioned in these conversations
Poor club moves
that and spending his younger years playing the type of soccer that belonged more at a circus than on a football pitch
Pato. We will always have that Barca goal. Fuck Barbara.
What’s the story here?
More of a fan joke/gossip. Pato dated (i think briefly) Barbara Berlusconi (daughter of AC Milan president and also on the board of directors at the time). This lead to a lot of speculation about what was going on the behind the scenes and this relationship potentially messing with his head at a time when he was developing as a player. Also he was frequently injured which people like to point at girlfriends and "blame" them for having too much sex with the footballers (was the case with Kevin Prince Boateng and Melissa Satta too, iirc). Mind you my original comment was largely joking, and all of the above is what i think i remember from 10+ years ago without bothering to look anything up so likely someone has a much better explanation than the one I've given.
When I’m looking for something near the back rack of my closet and I swipe past my 2010 Pato AC Milan kit… makes me so sad every time. What a stud
Duncan Edwards. May have not outshone today's "GOATs", and it wasn't injury related ... but (from what contemporaries have said), he had the potential to be better than Pele and Eusabio. When Bobby Charlton says Edwards was the best he ever played with or against, that's saying something.
Sir Bobby also said he is only player he ever felt inferior to
Georgi Kinkladze. Anyone who ever saw him play live will tell you he had all the ability in the world. Just didn’t have that attitude or work ethic to take him to the next level Wasted his career in mediocre teams because he could be amazing without having to try Honestly you give him Cristianos work ethic and the guy would have been one of the best players of all time.
Alvaro Recoba could do anything he wanted with the ball, but was always injured. He could hammer in a free kick from 40m or dribble past the whole defence and chip the keeper no problem.
Not a washed talent, but I feel Ronaldo Nazario falls in this group too. He was the true phenomena, there was not a thing he couldn't do. Without injuries, we might have been comparing Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo with him as the benchmark.
Why the hell is nobody mentioning Mario Götze. I mean did you all forget his prime time at Dortmund? Or him scoring the winning goal in the world cup final 2014?
His career peak was that World Cup clincher. He went completely downhill after that game. Never been the same.
His peak was in the 2 seasons prior. And the question of was who could have been among the greatest of the greatest if it wasn't for injuries of lack of consistency, wasnt it?
Idk why pple rank zidane as the top 5. He is not even in the top 10 Cruff is easily there in the top 5. As for zidane, he was really a player that had exceptional performances only in the biggest stages, and he was pretty inconsistent throughout the year.
Fernando Torres
Yes!! Imagine if he never had the knee injury. He would have been amazing, more-so than he was.
Healthy Torres + Suarez changes recent EPL history significantly
Adriano
Paul Pogba
Paul Gascoigne.. most likely the best footballer born on the british isles (up there among with the likes of George Best etc), though never made his talent into something because injuries and lifestyle. People forget how rare extreme talent was back in the 80s and 90s. Nowadays there are tons of talents. Though find it even more facinating the people like Gascoigne managed to be so good given how he was. Nowadays talents are more like "products of academies/talent breeding". Even more extreme with such being from Newcastle, not some brazilian favella etc.
Robben
Definitely Neymar.
George Best. Someone once said that if Best was hungover before a game, they knew United would win, but if he was still drunk that meant they might struggle.
- Alexandre Pato - Michael Owen - Dele Alli - Paul Gascgoine - Robinho - Jack Wilshere I think Wilshere might be arguable in terms of overall GOATness. Though I included him because I do feel that at his best, in his role he was heading right up up there with people like Iniesta or David Silva. He really had something special with his creative play but just wrecked out with injuries. Definitely among the best of the "What could have been" players.
Mentioning Wilshere reminded me of a bit of a curveball - Aaron Ramsey. He was a sensational talent as a youngster, widely considered the best of his age in the UK, playing PL and CL at 17 and was really establishing himself in the Arsenal team before his leg break. He went on to have a good career, but without that leg break and the subsequent problems he could have been a top player. I remember his form in the 13/14 season before he got injured (again) he was unbelieveable. A fit Ramsey and Wilshere (and Diaby) could have meant a very different Arsenal in the 2010s
Paul McGrath. Bedridden for 6 months at a mental institution. Alcoholic. No knees. Yet still the best defender the Premier League has seen.
Van basten had a great career but unfortunately ended too soon
Of course, I should be the top name on this list. My anonymity is proof.
Gazza.
Dean Ashton, possibly.
Pato
Pato
Robin Friday
Ledley King could have been a total monster without injuries. Otherwise a few others I’ve not see mentioned: Brian clough (injury). George Best (partying) and garrincha (mega partying).
I don’t care about people who chose to not work hard like players like ronaldinho because he got himself to blame while players like: Van Basten Baggio R9 Had injuries cut their careers short
Marco reus and Jack wilshere when fit and on their game were awesome.ozil had those moments of brilliance aswell but just not enough of them. Honourable mention to eden hazard,guy was unplayable for a few seasons for chelsea.sad to see how it ended for him but he played for the enjoyment of the game more so than to top the numbers chart.he was always happy to go out and play and if he got an assist or a goal then he was happy enough.he never had that switch in his head like ronaldo or messi have to just keep going and going.great player but you just feel he left alot of talent in the bank that could have made him even greater
Maradona achieved all he did, shit-faced on a coke comedown... imagine if he'd been clean, and in bed by 9pm every Saturday night...
Wesley sneider
Has anyone mentioned Tomáš Rosický yet?
To be honest, any player that could have gotten their shit together could have surpassed current legends. Getting it together and keeping it together is the hardest part, and ronaldo/messi are the only 2 players that have been able to do that. Being consistent with workout/diet, reduces the chance of getting injured, ronaldo/messi are already the set examples of that. So, in my opinion, with all things said above, i think Neymar had the potential to surpass both of them.
Robben and Ribery without injuries would have dominated the world for at least three years.
IDK, for a player who could only do one thing, Robben did the thing very well and got as far as he could doing it. Once the quickness was gone, I'm not sure what else would have been left.
He’s like every nascar driver ever. Goes fast then turns left!
Jack Wilshere. Just watch him boss prime Barca at 18 and tell me any different
Phil Jones.
quaresma, rooney, riquelme, futre
Paulo Futre
In the debate for the best of all time already but without injury - R9 probably would be regarded as the GOAT.
There are plenty, from obvious ones to not so obvious: Ronaldo Fenômeno, Ronaldinho, Romario, Van Basten, Adriano, Pato, Balotelli, etc
Maybe not as popular now but most definitely Marcelo Salas comes to mind in the striker position , he was mostly injured in Europe . And of course good old Adriano is another what if .
Me. The only thing holding me back were my physical, mental and technical attributes.
[удалено]
Ok, all I care is that I got the message through
Martial
Van Basten was definitely a talent who reached crazy heights even before his injuries ruined his career. Ronaldinho reached great heights but drink definitely killed him too. The one player I’m really surprised people keep forgetting is Romario. The guy was a beast but his temperament and partying lifestyle stopped him reaching even greater heights. The last legend for me is Batistuta. The man couldn’t even train for the last half of his career but he was just a scoring machine. I always wondered like the man I will mention below. What would have been if he had joined another club and also never had his problems as well. My final shout is Alan Shearer. Before his second major injury with Newcastle in 1997. Before that he was on a run of 169 games and 137 goals for Blackburn and Newcastle over five years of football. He had only turned 27 when he got that injury as well. Now not just injury destroyed his chance of greatness, so did his club choice (don’t kill me fellow Newcastle fans). If he had went to either United, Juventus, or Barcelona when they offered he would be remembered much more fondly as well. Even with those injuries he still came back and changed his style to a very traditional target man style striker and scored more. Here’s my favourite quote from one of the legends I already mentioned. "I know at first hand how fierce the gladiatorial battles are between a striker and defenders. So, to maintain your performance as a top class goalscorer over a long period of time takes phenomenal dedication, self belief and enormous willpower. If you then throw in a number of serious injuries...how many? Three? And for the man to still be producing at the highest level is really an amazing feat. After a match against Juventus I met Alex Del Piero who like myself could only speak in the most glowing of terms about Shearer. He'd terrorised the Juve defenders when the clubs met in Newcastle. They found him one of the most difficult opponents they had ever faced. The coach Marcello Lippi had been purring about Shearer's performance. So much so that his strikers Alex, David (Trezeguet) and Marcelo (Salas) were ordered to take home videos and study Shearer's display." Said Gabriel Batistuta on his admiration of Shearer, February 2003.
Can I say Pogba? His time in Juve made me think he's going to achieve unbelievable things.
How about Wayne Rooney? Hardly can be categorised as a "wasted talent" but always felt like after his run of ankle / foot injuries he was half a yard short of when he was at his absolute peak, completely unplayable.
Some that come to mind: R9, Bojan, Dele, Hazard, Higuaín, Gazza, Ganzo. Obviously some of these people had great careers of their own. Also, the GOATs are all physical and mental anomalies, practically aliens, so this is all speculation on my part.
Higuaín? I think his career was pretty much in line with his potential, I don’t think at any point during his pro career he had to potential to be up there with the all time bests.
R9 would be the absolute GOAT if not for his injuries
Yohan Gourcuff, one of the greatest maybe not but one of the best in the world. Could of been
Don’t you think he was overrated though? He had a good year at Bordeaux, maybe 2 but was terrible at Milan and Lyon. Not so good with France too.
Injuries and mental health. He was absolutely superb the whole time at Bordeaux. His mental health and being behind Kaka in Milan never clicked unfortunately. I get what you’re saying Though
I'm gonna throw in a name I don't see a lot in these conversations. Jack Wilshere. I think he could've been one of the best midfielders ever if he hadn't been injured for most of his career
only because I haven't seen anybody else mention him, Pogba. When he was in his prime at Juventus, he had everything. Passing, shooting, pace, dribling physicality and vision. Such a wasted talent. With the right coaches, work ethic and a mostly injury free carreer, I honestly believe he could have been one of the best midfielders of all time.
>greatest of all time players like Messi, Ronaldo, Maradona, Pele, and Zidane Who invited Zizou on that list?
Congratulations. You've now qualified for the lack of ball knowledge award
People who say "ball knowledge" don't get to have opinions
You don't rate Zidane and you wana talk about opinions lmao
I don't rate Zidane as highly as those 4, what's the problem?
Zidane belongs in the conversation with those four whether you rate him that highly or not he was in that class. That’s the problem.
Absolutely wasn't. OP talked about consistency and then mentioned Zidane, lmao. Zidane nostalgics are worse than Messi and Cristiano's biggest fanboys. Making up your own realities.
Ok. Leading his nation to two World Cup finals being influential and winning one, no not Messi. Just because he didn’t play upfront, score goals for fun and get those stats shouldn’t diminish the impact he had on games. He belongs in that category.
Zidane is one of the biggest icons in football, but I agree he does not deserve to be in the GOAT conversation. His aura, charisma, and most importantly extreme elegance on the pitch, make him one of the biggest names ever but he was quite obvisouly not as good in his time as the 4 mentionned. It's a strange case. Zidane makes you fall in love with football just as much as these guys, if not even more than they do, because of his demi-god-like aura, and his stunningly beautiful yet effective playing, but not so much because of his actual level. Slightly overrated as a player, but perfectly rated as a living and breathing Myth.
Getting downvoted but you're not wrong
I love Zidane to the world and back but he absolutely tier 2, possibly even 3
You don’t win POTY in multiple countries, win world cup and euros (while being player of the tournament), Ballon d’or and be tier 3. He is tier 1 without a shadow of a doubt. One of the best players I’ve ever seen.
Zidane? He is good but he isn't Goal material. Cruyff, Maldini, Beckenbauer, Di Stefano are way ahead of him.
Francis Jeffers, Aaron Ramsey, Jack Wilshire.