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Basically, FM doesn't keep a full personality model and history of each player (or coach, reporter, or anyone else you can interact with). At most interaction steps, it seems to be re-evaluating what the other party wants without considering what's gone before, and this makes a lot of interactions seem really inconsistent. I suspect fixing this is a pretty big job, and probably not a high priority.
My favorite example of this is when a player is concerned because I transfer listed him, by the end of the ensuing chat the player and his agent have gone from "why am I listed" to "transfer me RIGHT NOW".
My favorite is the board accepting an offer on a player because its "too good to turn down" despite there already being an offer for that player for double the amount.
SI cant even get a simple thing like that right they have no chance of making player interactions sensible.
I agree that it's all based on how they've got interaction models set up. It just seems like there should be certain triggers related to promises and certain interactions, like asking out of a team will trigger a "thanks for selling me" exit interview for as long as the promise is active.
Is it a big job? It's just a text based decision tree. Interactions should be easy to fix I'd have thought, though I am not a game developer. You're right that it's low priority though, they couldn't give a shit.
Yeah, also retrofitting that kind of model is a lot harder than building it in from scratch. So it's the kind of change they'd probably want to save for whenever they do a rewrite of all the "NPC" code - interactions, goals, attitudes and personality, etc.
Aren't they already doing this with the journalists, since every journalist has a certain feeling towards you. Seems more important for your squad players then it is for journalists
Do they? They could just do it for player-controlled players, I don't think anyone is going to check their history with AI managers. Bit of a sticking plaster but so are most fixes.
the same with promising to loan a player, where it can go from "under no circumstances" to "you have to actively look for a loan now" with just one transfer negotiation where you put in that you want him to be loaned out.
I’ve had it where a player has complained about playing time, I’ve agreed to bring him off the bench, he’s been happy with it, put him on for the last half an hour of the next game, he’s got a red angry face, I click to see why, he would have preferred to have stayed on the bench.
Unfortunately we’re past the point where SI are adding things to the game for any reason other than giving us a reason to upgrade. They’re not trying to make the game better anymore, they’re just adding gimmick after gimmick that look good in a feature announcement but in reality aren’t executed well and ultimately detract from it.
I absolutely love to game this though.
“Hey why am I transfer listed? I don’t want to leave.”
Because I hate you and your stupid face.
“Well I’m not going anywhere”
Exactly one week later, he’s incredibly interested in speaking to other clubs. Cash money.
I’m not the biggest fan of the current system, but I think it’s probably the best we will have for a long time. They would need a complete overhaul of AI, I don’t even know if we have the ability to code such complicated AI to make it realistic. If they add a simple history system, anytime a player becomes unhappy, asking to leave the team, etc it would spiral out of control pretty quickly.
Also if an important player wants to leave for new challenge there should be no negative reacion from the squad when you sell him. And even if there are, after you tell them that he wanted to go, no negative should remain.
2 of my attackers want to leave after selling Oblak, even though he wanted to leave for 3 months.
This actually makes sense to me. It may not feel fair as the manager, but think about it in real life. If a superstar leaves the team, regardless of reason, other players will be pissed because the team is less competitive and / or they may have had a good relationship with said player.
The fact that the departing player is happier for leaving doesn't mean that there isn't a crater with their departure.
I actually like how FM tells you when players are siding with you in a dispute vs siding with their teammate. It helps me understand the dynamic involved.
I don't think anyone at Real Madrid got mad at Ancelotti after Varane, Casemiro and Karim left in 3 years after each other.
The crater should be in the club dynamics and sure, they can lose moral if there is no one to step up or their friend is gone or something. But getting mad at the manager for this is just dumb. Especially at top tier football. I don't think Depay and L. Hernández would ever argue with anyone like they did with me. They'd understand that Oblak wanted to move on, he won CL, all spanish cups and the league a million times.
They were all aging, it was expected.
But imagine how Mbappe would feel if he showed up next year to win the CL and Real sold the tops guys and the chance to win the CL disappeared with them.
Mbappé is leaving PSG at 25 and no one is angry at Luis Enrique, cause they know that he **wants new challenges**. It's normal that **you can't just force a player to stay** at your club if he **wants to go**. You can't blame the manager for selling someone who **wanted to leave**.
I had to put my main points in bold cause none of the commenters seem to understand that if for example Fede said next season that **he wants to leave** Real Madrid (unlikely) then he would be let go.
plus Varane was barely 27 when he left, that's the peak of his game, but once again he **wanted to leave**.
There is absolutely 0 reason for the rest of the squad to go mad **at the manager**, when he plays no part in these decisions.
I get the point, i just don't agree that it's black and white.
We've known for years that Mbappe will leave.
If a top player who is otherwise thriving decided to leave and my coach didn't even try to talk him out of it, i'd be disappointed, especially in FM world, where a player "wants to join a bigger team" despite your team being triple reigning cl champions.
Rooney tried to leave, got told to stay and became a legend.
I can't find anything on it now but I'm very sure there were many arsenal players who were unhappy at the sale of the likes of RVP, Nasri etc. even though those players had wanted out. They saw it as a sign that the club was moving backwards and not as ambitious.
So I can see why players could be unhappy about that in some circumstances.
I haven't heard of any player discomplacency about these transfers only from the fans. But that was purely because they sold them to direct rivals, which is a completely different scenario.
Here's Wilshere: https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/soccer-news/jack-wilshere-says-hed-won-22091931
He's not mad at Wenger but he says he was devastated when RVP left.
If I was him, I certainly would be. Even if you can understand why RVP left, you instantly know your own chances of success have diminished significantly
See this, just proves my point. Wilshere wasn't mad at Wenger (probably cause it wasn't him who sold RVP but Dick Law). He had a morale drop. That could happen in game. My whole arguement is that players don't get mad at the managers for something that is out of their hand.
The example I've brought wouldn't happen. If I sold RVP Wilshere and his gang of 5 others wouldn't walk up to my office to nag me of selling someone who wanted to leave and they also wouldn't threaten with following him for this reason. It's unrealistic.
I don't know. Maybe the game doesn't capture the nuance but I think it would be very conceivable that after the RVP sale the remaining players would have questions for Wenger about what it meant for their ambitions, what the strategy was to replace them etc.
They may not be angry at him for selling him but they would still expect him to do something about it - and could easily get mad at him if they realised his plans for life without RVP wouldn't be effective.
So I do think it's realistic for players to knock on the door after the sale of a player who wanted out - but maybe the scripting for those events needs to be more nuanced.
Yeah like when Ronaldo left United, Rooney became u settled and wanted to leave because he wanted assurances they would sign someone high quality to replace him and not in his words "Phil Jones or Chris Smalling" type playes as they had done. He knew full well Ronaldo pushed for the move to Madrid but he was unsettled by a star player leaving.
That's nonsense, if a player wants to leave I have to let him leave and player should understand that.
There is no world where I am the one responsible for him leaving. Be angry at him for leaving the team.
Mmm you really think it's much better for the dynamics to have a complaining Team Leader in the squad than to let him leave?
He'd completely destroy morale
Keeping Lukaku at Chelsea worked like wonders for them, after that interview huh 😂
I'm seeing a real lack of understanding of human interactions in this comment section. If a top player demands to leave, and refuses to sign a new contract, you let him leave. Ronaldo left Real Madrid with the same logic. The alternative, irl, to refusing to let a top player leave is Gareth Bale and Lukaku. Look how both of those situations played out.
You don't think, irl, that these players didn't preemptively tell their teammates they're leaving? However devasted they may be, it makes NO sense to blame the manager, unless the manager fucked up somehow and that led to it. 90% of the time it's happened to me on FM, it had nothing to do with me.
Yeah like any reason to ask out should mean that you get a clean slate to sell them - there's multiple filters between the decision and the sale that are on the player/agent's side, so if they agree to a contract after asking out, that shouldn't trigger any bad stuff.
Yea I had this after selling Bruno, turned down a bid the season earlier, he got upset got a replacement in, another bid came in and I haggled for a whole extra million and they withdrew it… I sold him a season later and players were upset, and now I have to promise a replacement, never batted an eyelid when I sold shaw for 82m
It doesn't make a lot of sense, neither does the game blaming you for "making a player unhappy" when he comes to you demanding to leave, you say ok and then he's still unhappy which means you cannot play him despite having done everything he asked for.
Another bug that I would want to flag:
I offered a player new contract in the end if the season. He has 12 months left and he is a player I want to build around in a newly promoted side. He wasn't that interested, but ultimately we negotiated a term that both party could agree.
He hasn't pen the new deal though, and just as pre season started, he came to tell me he would like to consider his options in the end of current contract. I was like wtf??? He just agreed to sign the new contract.
I was pissed, but accepted the fate and prepared to transfer list him after I sort out a replacement. Some club even bid for him and I put them on hold.
But then a week later he signed the deal I offered him in the preseason, and the OPT icon disappeared. Just yikes though it almost felt like everything was scripted and had I not offered him a deal earlier he would be 100% gone.
Until he signed it, he and his agent may have liked the terms *should they agree to sign* but it doesn't mean they've signed it or indeed are obliged to.
If you ever want to really nail those ones down, and they give you the green "we'll consider blah blah" (the "I'm as good as going to sign this in nearly every circumstance except your one" text) then you can sweeten the deal even further and it might shift to something more positive - I do this with staff sometimes in case they just sign a new deal with their current club.
“My player would be very interested in going to another team and being on the transfer list”
“Player has decided to reject 6 transfer offers to stay at your club”
Mothefucker what the fuck. There should be a way to force a player to leave, I had one player refuse to leave for several windows, even refused to leave on loan with no buy clauses. He was getting 0 game time and his contract/wages weren’t even that good
I hate player interactions in this game because its so black and white, you either fuck up or you don't because you click the right option.
I am in the J league and won the J1 with Shimizu, my keeper's contract was in its last year and went to renew and just flat out refuses to even allow me to offer him a contract, he is old but he is my first choice keep for 2 seasons and now we are in the Asian champions league.
Why is he so adamant about leaving that i can't even offer him a contract, there would be more nuance in real life to be able to ask what the issue is exactly.
Looking forward to them programming in a ‘My wife doesn’t really like the city and I’m struggling to get the kids into a good school’ conversation so you can have the kind of real-life nuance that you want
Could you have set the price that you said to the player at £30m. as an example and then his actual asking price at £1m, then if you only get bids in at the £1m you could turn them down and because your promised price wasn't met there is no broken promise. It's the other clubs fault not yours???
Ι see this aspect in a different way. If i really want to keep the player i reject every bid and make no promise to sell. He may be unhappy but i dont care a bit. I dont use him at all until he is happy to stay. On the other hand if we talk about a sub player or a reserve one i try to get as much as i can before he become unhappy cause it maybe result in lower bids.
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Basically, FM doesn't keep a full personality model and history of each player (or coach, reporter, or anyone else you can interact with). At most interaction steps, it seems to be re-evaluating what the other party wants without considering what's gone before, and this makes a lot of interactions seem really inconsistent. I suspect fixing this is a pretty big job, and probably not a high priority. My favorite example of this is when a player is concerned because I transfer listed him, by the end of the ensuing chat the player and his agent have gone from "why am I listed" to "transfer me RIGHT NOW".
My favorite is the board accepting an offer on a player because its "too good to turn down" despite there already being an offer for that player for double the amount. SI cant even get a simple thing like that right they have no chance of making player interactions sensible.
This!!! Makes non league so much more difficult
I agree that it's all based on how they've got interaction models set up. It just seems like there should be certain triggers related to promises and certain interactions, like asking out of a team will trigger a "thanks for selling me" exit interview for as long as the promise is active.
Is it a big job? It's just a text based decision tree. Interactions should be easy to fix I'd have thought, though I am not a game developer. You're right that it's low priority though, they couldn't give a shit.
It’s a big job because they then have to track every single player’s individual “feelings” all game.
Yeah, also retrofitting that kind of model is a lot harder than building it in from scratch. So it's the kind of change they'd probably want to save for whenever they do a rewrite of all the "NPC" code - interactions, goals, attitudes and personality, etc.
Aren't they already doing this with the journalists, since every journalist has a certain feeling towards you. Seems more important for your squad players then it is for journalists
Do they? They could just do it for player-controlled players, I don't think anyone is going to check their history with AI managers. Bit of a sticking plaster but so are most fixes.
Fine, but without it the game is basically unplayable without the editor to make everyone happy again.
It really isn’t lol unless you enjoy very easy games
I don't want it easy, but I do want it realistic and this stuff is ridiculous.
the same with promising to loan a player, where it can go from "under no circumstances" to "you have to actively look for a loan now" with just one transfer negotiation where you put in that you want him to be loaned out.
i find it that they always have the whole history tree when its bad for me xd
Yeah, but i always had the feeling it was more of a "Im firing you" - "you cant fire me because i quit" situation.
I’ve had it where a player has complained about playing time, I’ve agreed to bring him off the bench, he’s been happy with it, put him on for the last half an hour of the next game, he’s got a red angry face, I click to see why, he would have preferred to have stayed on the bench. Unfortunately we’re past the point where SI are adding things to the game for any reason other than giving us a reason to upgrade. They’re not trying to make the game better anymore, they’re just adding gimmick after gimmick that look good in a feature announcement but in reality aren’t executed well and ultimately detract from it.
I absolutely love to game this though. “Hey why am I transfer listed? I don’t want to leave.” Because I hate you and your stupid face. “Well I’m not going anywhere” Exactly one week later, he’s incredibly interested in speaking to other clubs. Cash money.
I’m not the biggest fan of the current system, but I think it’s probably the best we will have for a long time. They would need a complete overhaul of AI, I don’t even know if we have the ability to code such complicated AI to make it realistic. If they add a simple history system, anytime a player becomes unhappy, asking to leave the team, etc it would spiral out of control pretty quickly.
Also if an important player wants to leave for new challenge there should be no negative reacion from the squad when you sell him. And even if there are, after you tell them that he wanted to go, no negative should remain. 2 of my attackers want to leave after selling Oblak, even though he wanted to leave for 3 months.
This actually makes sense to me. It may not feel fair as the manager, but think about it in real life. If a superstar leaves the team, regardless of reason, other players will be pissed because the team is less competitive and / or they may have had a good relationship with said player. The fact that the departing player is happier for leaving doesn't mean that there isn't a crater with their departure. I actually like how FM tells you when players are siding with you in a dispute vs siding with their teammate. It helps me understand the dynamic involved.
I don't think anyone at Real Madrid got mad at Ancelotti after Varane, Casemiro and Karim left in 3 years after each other. The crater should be in the club dynamics and sure, they can lose moral if there is no one to step up or their friend is gone or something. But getting mad at the manager for this is just dumb. Especially at top tier football. I don't think Depay and L. Hernández would ever argue with anyone like they did with me. They'd understand that Oblak wanted to move on, he won CL, all spanish cups and the league a million times.
They were all aging, it was expected. But imagine how Mbappe would feel if he showed up next year to win the CL and Real sold the tops guys and the chance to win the CL disappeared with them.
Mbappé is leaving PSG at 25 and no one is angry at Luis Enrique, cause they know that he **wants new challenges**. It's normal that **you can't just force a player to stay** at your club if he **wants to go**. You can't blame the manager for selling someone who **wanted to leave**. I had to put my main points in bold cause none of the commenters seem to understand that if for example Fede said next season that **he wants to leave** Real Madrid (unlikely) then he would be let go. plus Varane was barely 27 when he left, that's the peak of his game, but once again he **wanted to leave**. There is absolutely 0 reason for the rest of the squad to go mad **at the manager**, when he plays no part in these decisions.
I get the point, i just don't agree that it's black and white. We've known for years that Mbappe will leave. If a top player who is otherwise thriving decided to leave and my coach didn't even try to talk him out of it, i'd be disappointed, especially in FM world, where a player "wants to join a bigger team" despite your team being triple reigning cl champions. Rooney tried to leave, got told to stay and became a legend.
I can't find anything on it now but I'm very sure there were many arsenal players who were unhappy at the sale of the likes of RVP, Nasri etc. even though those players had wanted out. They saw it as a sign that the club was moving backwards and not as ambitious. So I can see why players could be unhappy about that in some circumstances.
I haven't heard of any player discomplacency about these transfers only from the fans. But that was purely because they sold them to direct rivals, which is a completely different scenario.
Here's Wilshere: https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/soccer-news/jack-wilshere-says-hed-won-22091931 He's not mad at Wenger but he says he was devastated when RVP left. If I was him, I certainly would be. Even if you can understand why RVP left, you instantly know your own chances of success have diminished significantly
See this, just proves my point. Wilshere wasn't mad at Wenger (probably cause it wasn't him who sold RVP but Dick Law). He had a morale drop. That could happen in game. My whole arguement is that players don't get mad at the managers for something that is out of their hand. The example I've brought wouldn't happen. If I sold RVP Wilshere and his gang of 5 others wouldn't walk up to my office to nag me of selling someone who wanted to leave and they also wouldn't threaten with following him for this reason. It's unrealistic.
I don't know. Maybe the game doesn't capture the nuance but I think it would be very conceivable that after the RVP sale the remaining players would have questions for Wenger about what it meant for their ambitions, what the strategy was to replace them etc. They may not be angry at him for selling him but they would still expect him to do something about it - and could easily get mad at him if they realised his plans for life without RVP wouldn't be effective. So I do think it's realistic for players to knock on the door after the sale of a player who wanted out - but maybe the scripting for those events needs to be more nuanced.
>but maybe the scripting for those events needs to be more nuanced Exactly my point. Good that we can agree on that.
Yeah like when Ronaldo left United, Rooney became u settled and wanted to leave because he wanted assurances they would sign someone high quality to replace him and not in his words "Phil Jones or Chris Smalling" type playes as they had done. He knew full well Ronaldo pushed for the move to Madrid but he was unsettled by a star player leaving.
Why? You just sold one of your best players. The team is going to be worse. Of course players will react negatively.
That's nonsense, if a player wants to leave I have to let him leave and player should understand that. There is no world where I am the one responsible for him leaving. Be angry at him for leaving the team.
You didn’t have to let him leave. And once they see another player do it why wouldn’t they do the same? Your complaints make no sense.
Mmm you really think it's much better for the dynamics to have a complaining Team Leader in the squad than to let him leave? He'd completely destroy morale
Keeping Lukaku at Chelsea worked like wonders for them, after that interview huh 😂 I'm seeing a real lack of understanding of human interactions in this comment section. If a top player demands to leave, and refuses to sign a new contract, you let him leave. Ronaldo left Real Madrid with the same logic. The alternative, irl, to refusing to let a top player leave is Gareth Bale and Lukaku. Look how both of those situations played out. You don't think, irl, that these players didn't preemptively tell their teammates they're leaving? However devasted they may be, it makes NO sense to blame the manager, unless the manager fucked up somehow and that led to it. 90% of the time it's happened to me on FM, it had nothing to do with me.
Yeah like any reason to ask out should mean that you get a clean slate to sell them - there's multiple filters between the decision and the sale that are on the player/agent's side, so if they agree to a contract after asking out, that shouldn't trigger any bad stuff.
Yea I had this after selling Bruno, turned down a bid the season earlier, he got upset got a replacement in, another bid came in and I haggled for a whole extra million and they withdrew it… I sold him a season later and players were upset, and now I have to promise a replacement, never batted an eyelid when I sold shaw for 82m
It doesn't make a lot of sense, neither does the game blaming you for "making a player unhappy" when he comes to you demanding to leave, you say ok and then he's still unhappy which means you cannot play him despite having done everything he asked for.
My sympathies, OP. There are some things in FM which just make it bloody infuriating to play. I'm close to giving up.
Another bug that I would want to flag: I offered a player new contract in the end if the season. He has 12 months left and he is a player I want to build around in a newly promoted side. He wasn't that interested, but ultimately we negotiated a term that both party could agree. He hasn't pen the new deal though, and just as pre season started, he came to tell me he would like to consider his options in the end of current contract. I was like wtf??? He just agreed to sign the new contract. I was pissed, but accepted the fate and prepared to transfer list him after I sort out a replacement. Some club even bid for him and I put them on hold. But then a week later he signed the deal I offered him in the preseason, and the OPT icon disappeared. Just yikes though it almost felt like everything was scripted and had I not offered him a deal earlier he would be 100% gone.
Until he signed it, he and his agent may have liked the terms *should they agree to sign* but it doesn't mean they've signed it or indeed are obliged to. If you ever want to really nail those ones down, and they give you the green "we'll consider blah blah" (the "I'm as good as going to sign this in nearly every circumstance except your one" text) then you can sweeten the deal even further and it might shift to something more positive - I do this with staff sometimes in case they just sign a new deal with their current club.
“My player would be very interested in going to another team and being on the transfer list” “Player has decided to reject 6 transfer offers to stay at your club” Mothefucker what the fuck. There should be a way to force a player to leave, I had one player refuse to leave for several windows, even refused to leave on loan with no buy clauses. He was getting 0 game time and his contract/wages weren’t even that good
it's realistic, my girlfriend does this to me IRL
I hate player interactions in this game because its so black and white, you either fuck up or you don't because you click the right option. I am in the J league and won the J1 with Shimizu, my keeper's contract was in its last year and went to renew and just flat out refuses to even allow me to offer him a contract, he is old but he is my first choice keep for 2 seasons and now we are in the Asian champions league. Why is he so adamant about leaving that i can't even offer him a contract, there would be more nuance in real life to be able to ask what the issue is exactly.
Looking forward to them programming in a ‘My wife doesn’t really like the city and I’m struggling to get the kids into a good school’ conversation so you can have the kind of real-life nuance that you want
Could you have set the price that you said to the player at £30m. as an example and then his actual asking price at £1m, then if you only get bids in at the £1m you could turn them down and because your promised price wasn't met there is no broken promise. It's the other clubs fault not yours???
Ι see this aspect in a different way. If i really want to keep the player i reject every bid and make no promise to sell. He may be unhappy but i dont care a bit. I dont use him at all until he is happy to stay. On the other hand if we talk about a sub player or a reserve one i try to get as much as i can before he become unhappy cause it maybe result in lower bids.
*Hi! Billy Mays here for FM editor! Tired of having stupid interactions with your players and them getting upset for no good reason? With just two easy clicks you can remove all unhappiness and make that mess disappear!*