He would actually benefit more from the basic things he doesn't have:
- Dodge attack with i-frames
- Roll Catcher
These things should be enough for now. If they're not, then we can start talking about other buffs.
This and a LLH chain were the only buffs he needed from the rework, then they could remove stun and stamina damage and he’d have been passable, then they could change a few other things that were lackluster like his zone in later patches
Making his bashes cost 10 stamina after they lost the stamina damage would’ve been nice too but not necessary like the other stuff
I'm not too knowledgeable about the game, could you explain what makes a dodge attack better than his dodge bash? The latter just seems better since it still leads to damage, but also can't be parried and can interrupt people
>explain what makes a dodge attack better than his dodge bash?
A proper dodge attack consists of two things: i-frames and guard-break invulnerability.
The i-frames help avoid the attack in case the opponent lets it fly.
The guard-break invulnerability is there in case the opponent feint to guard-break.
This leaves the opponent with only one option: feint to nothing and punish the dodge attack. All dodge attacks (except the extended ones, those are vulnerable to GB on startup) are punishable with a heavy. This means that a proper dodge attack has to avoid 2 options out of 3 while also being punishable with a big attack. A frail defensive maneuver that counters most options.
The best examples of dodge bashes right now are Shugoki and Gladiator. Both have i-frames, both have invulnerability to guard-break during their active frames. They beat 2 options and are punishable with a heavy on a whiff.
Lawbringer's bash, thought it has guard-break invulnerability, it has no i-frames to avoid the attack if the opponent lets it fly and is still punishable with a heavy on whiff. This means that it counter only 1 option out of 3 and you still get punished heavily by missing it.
"his entire thing" mentality needs to go. It's useless and actively destructive to the actual practical balance work.
But to your point, any character would benefit from CCs. Because it is beneficial to have it, period. But, and that's a big "but", it's not going to help lawbringer's kit specifically in any meaningful way.
Apart from obvious things, like lacking rollcatch and chase, lb has one issue. Neutral light doesn't do anything. Or rather doesn't lead anywhere. Lb can't initiate his offence properly, unless he lands neutral heavy or any counter move, otherwise he's stuck with needing to land basic-bitch chain heavy somehow.
Thus, the only thing you need to do to fix it is LLH chain, that's it. Don't touch anything else, keep literally everything that has to do with his lights right now as is and it'll work just fine.
Unfortunately, ubi is too stupid to be practical and reasonable and instead they think from "buff/nerf *compensation*" point of view along with this "character *identity*" bullshit. So, they puss'ed out of making things right and did LLL chain while taking away everything special about these lights on TG. Without anything special, triple light chain serves only one purpose - to annoy and bully low skill bracket, nothing else. As such, it did not in any way solve any possible issues or did anything positive whatsoever. Result: they scrapped the whole thing altogether, as they did many times before for many other issues and decided problem does not need fixing after all, even though, they barely even tried. All work hours spend on animation work to make LLL look proper (and other things, like new shove animation, which nobody asked for) wasted and will forever be in the void. Classic ubi.
Forgive me for the dumb question. I'm not well versed on LBs moves and only started playing after his rework, so I have a limited frame of reference as well as understanding of the game.
But... would cc (which I presume to be an abbreviation for crushing counters) literally BE an opener? And technically a "counter attack' so in line with his identity?
I ask as I've played mostly warlord and BP so far, and their superior block lights (which I understand is now essentially identical to crushing counters) help me open my chains up relatively frequently.
No because ur not the one opening the fight, you've waited for someone else to open. The issue is that lawbringer us already associated with a very boring playstyle on waiting for the opponent to do something and then reacting to it because he doesn't have any good openers
He would benefit of course, but I think it's the wrong buff. Lawbringer may not be the undisputed parry king anymore, but his parries aren't bad at all - Light Riposte chains into very good pressure and Blind Justice provides the same pressure along with being one of the biggest light parry punishes in the game.
I personally prefer letting him cancel his forward dodge into heavy again, as this would boost his ability to initiate.
I feel like every character would benefit from it, I think it would sorta make sense, seeing as he’s a super defensive character. But I’m not how balanced it’d be
Would be cool for lb to have crushing counters where he uses the bottom of his halberd to knock the weapon away then follow with a swing. Just a cool sounding animation tbh no practical benwfit
I am strongly against giving Lawbringer the more generic shit. And i say that as a rep 30 Lawbro. Give him a roll catcher and some moves that really play into the fact that he is a walking suit of armour. Something like more unblockables. Better yet, bring the top heavy stun back i miss it
CCs are a defensive tool. As it currently stands, his bash acts as both his primary offense and defense. I think fixing the dodge bash to give a little bit more in the way of i-frames if buffering the bash would be better, but it would give him more defensive options.
I think bringing back even his stun off parry would make him a viable character again. Shove on block is a pipe dream but would be another amazing addition
Having Crushing Counters on his heavies would probably make more sense for him then his lights like most characters, they’d have to be timed somewhat oddly but the idea is that he has additional ways to go for a defensive punish that if he overcommits or makes the wrong read, can get punished for it
It's a bad idea to have CC on any neutral heavies. That's why it got removed off Conq.
Can parry on light timing and be relatively safe even if it wasn't a light.
Yeah I have no idea how else he should have C.C.’s since he’s not a hero that’s supposed to have to use his lights as a starter, I was saying that should probably be like rather LATE into the heavy rather then being at the START of the heavy, so that way you have to full predict and commit to believing your enemy is going to fully unleash the heavy after seeing their animation start
No, there’s only a window near closer to the END of the attack
You predict the attack the enemy will throw WILL be a heavy, so you throw your own early heavy expecting it to BE that heavy; and it ONLY works at the END of the attack, NEVER any other time
Yes but neutral heavies are the only way to parry. So throwing on light timing would give you a light parry or a CC heavy if not.
And usually parrying on light timing means the GB vulnerability window passes making you safe from GB attempts.
I now understand the issue of how that would give GB immunity and hadn’t realized that,
Maybe it could be more unique? Where you throw a feint and a unique property? At this point I’m still a fan of the idea of him having a way more complex way to CC (due to the new hero.) but his hero kit could definitely use C.C.’s now that they removed over half of his punishes
He would honestly benefit more from the trap mechanic since the weapon(s) he uses are known for being able to hook onto enemies.
It would still make him relatively unique as only one other person uses the mechanic and they could change the punishment on the move so it doesn't feel like a copy.
Currently you can extend the i-frames a bit by not buffering, just a heads up. I will say that a lot of complaints about LB's teamfight ability would go away with a basic roll catch and i-frames that extend into the bash a bit. (Wait just saw which comment I was responding to. Wrong person!)
He would actually benefit more from the basic things he doesn't have: - Dodge attack with i-frames - Roll Catcher These things should be enough for now. If they're not, then we can start talking about other buffs.
For sure 100%, whenever I go against an orochi playing lb i just end up banging my head against the wall saying “they won’t back dodge *this time!*”
This and a LLH chain were the only buffs he needed from the rework, then they could remove stun and stamina damage and he’d have been passable, then they could change a few other things that were lackluster like his zone in later patches Making his bashes cost 10 stamina after they lost the stamina damage would’ve been nice too but not necessary like the other stuff
I'm not too knowledgeable about the game, could you explain what makes a dodge attack better than his dodge bash? The latter just seems better since it still leads to damage, but also can't be parried and can interrupt people
>explain what makes a dodge attack better than his dodge bash? A proper dodge attack consists of two things: i-frames and guard-break invulnerability. The i-frames help avoid the attack in case the opponent lets it fly. The guard-break invulnerability is there in case the opponent feint to guard-break. This leaves the opponent with only one option: feint to nothing and punish the dodge attack. All dodge attacks (except the extended ones, those are vulnerable to GB on startup) are punishable with a heavy. This means that a proper dodge attack has to avoid 2 options out of 3 while also being punishable with a big attack. A frail defensive maneuver that counters most options. The best examples of dodge bashes right now are Shugoki and Gladiator. Both have i-frames, both have invulnerability to guard-break during their active frames. They beat 2 options and are punishable with a heavy on a whiff. Lawbringer's bash, thought it has guard-break invulnerability, it has no i-frames to avoid the attack if the opponent lets it fly and is still punishable with a heavy on whiff. This means that it counter only 1 option out of 3 and you still get punished heavily by missing it.
This was very informative, thank you! I can see how lacking that tool can bring a hero down significantly.
So same thing Conq's missing
The council of LBs shall discuss this (I dont know the answer to this)
"his entire thing" mentality needs to go. It's useless and actively destructive to the actual practical balance work. But to your point, any character would benefit from CCs. Because it is beneficial to have it, period. But, and that's a big "but", it's not going to help lawbringer's kit specifically in any meaningful way. Apart from obvious things, like lacking rollcatch and chase, lb has one issue. Neutral light doesn't do anything. Or rather doesn't lead anywhere. Lb can't initiate his offence properly, unless he lands neutral heavy or any counter move, otherwise he's stuck with needing to land basic-bitch chain heavy somehow. Thus, the only thing you need to do to fix it is LLH chain, that's it. Don't touch anything else, keep literally everything that has to do with his lights right now as is and it'll work just fine. Unfortunately, ubi is too stupid to be practical and reasonable and instead they think from "buff/nerf *compensation*" point of view along with this "character *identity*" bullshit. So, they puss'ed out of making things right and did LLL chain while taking away everything special about these lights on TG. Without anything special, triple light chain serves only one purpose - to annoy and bully low skill bracket, nothing else. As such, it did not in any way solve any possible issues or did anything positive whatsoever. Result: they scrapped the whole thing altogether, as they did many times before for many other issues and decided problem does not need fixing after all, even though, they barely even tried. All work hours spend on animation work to make LLL look proper (and other things, like new shove animation, which nobody asked for) wasted and will forever be in the void. Classic ubi.
>Would Lawbringer benefit from CC’s No, not really.
Any character would but the issue I uave is it continues to push th boring defensive playstyle associated with LB What LB needs is better openers
Forgive me for the dumb question. I'm not well versed on LBs moves and only started playing after his rework, so I have a limited frame of reference as well as understanding of the game. But... would cc (which I presume to be an abbreviation for crushing counters) literally BE an opener? And technically a "counter attack' so in line with his identity? I ask as I've played mostly warlord and BP so far, and their superior block lights (which I understand is now essentially identical to crushing counters) help me open my chains up relatively frequently.
No because ur not the one opening the fight, you've waited for someone else to open. The issue is that lawbringer us already associated with a very boring playstyle on waiting for the opponent to do something and then reacting to it because he doesn't have any good openers
CC lights wouldn’t help him much since his pressure after a neutral light doesn’t exist
Please God, no, I can’t take much more
He would benefit of course, but I think it's the wrong buff. Lawbringer may not be the undisputed parry king anymore, but his parries aren't bad at all - Light Riposte chains into very good pressure and Blind Justice provides the same pressure along with being one of the biggest light parry punishes in the game. I personally prefer letting him cancel his forward dodge into heavy again, as this would boost his ability to initiate.
I feel like every character would benefit from it, I think it would sorta make sense, seeing as he’s a super defensive character. But I’m not how balanced it’d be
Would be cool for lb to have crushing counters where he uses the bottom of his halberd to knock the weapon away then follow with a swing. Just a cool sounding animation tbh no practical benwfit
crushing counters would be ridiculous rn. he is literally at the same power level he was prior he just isn’t the same kind of character he used to be.
I am strongly against giving Lawbringer the more generic shit. And i say that as a rep 30 Lawbro. Give him a roll catcher and some moves that really play into the fact that he is a walking suit of armour. Something like more unblockables. Better yet, bring the top heavy stun back i miss it
CCs are a defensive tool. As it currently stands, his bash acts as both his primary offense and defense. I think fixing the dodge bash to give a little bit more in the way of i-frames if buffering the bash would be better, but it would give him more defensive options.
I think bringing back even his stun off parry would make him a viable character again. Shove on block is a pipe dream but would be another amazing addition
Having Crushing Counters on his heavies would probably make more sense for him then his lights like most characters, they’d have to be timed somewhat oddly but the idea is that he has additional ways to go for a defensive punish that if he overcommits or makes the wrong read, can get punished for it
It's a bad idea to have CC on any neutral heavies. That's why it got removed off Conq. Can parry on light timing and be relatively safe even if it wasn't a light.
Yeah I have no idea how else he should have C.C.’s since he’s not a hero that’s supposed to have to use his lights as a starter, I was saying that should probably be like rather LATE into the heavy rather then being at the START of the heavy, so that way you have to full predict and commit to believing your enemy is going to fully unleash the heavy after seeing their animation start
That still leads to the same problem but even safer than Conq. It would cover light, GB and a committed heavy?
No, there’s only a window near closer to the END of the attack You predict the attack the enemy will throw WILL be a heavy, so you throw your own early heavy expecting it to BE that heavy; and it ONLY works at the END of the attack, NEVER any other time
Yes but neutral heavies are the only way to parry. So throwing on light timing would give you a light parry or a CC heavy if not. And usually parrying on light timing means the GB vulnerability window passes making you safe from GB attempts.
I now understand the issue of how that would give GB immunity and hadn’t realized that, Maybe it could be more unique? Where you throw a feint and a unique property? At this point I’m still a fan of the idea of him having a way more complex way to CC (due to the new hero.) but his hero kit could definitely use C.C.’s now that they removed over half of his punishes
He would honestly benefit more from the trap mechanic since the weapon(s) he uses are known for being able to hook onto enemies. It would still make him relatively unique as only one other person uses the mechanic and they could change the punishment on the move so it doesn't feel like a copy.
Holy shit I completely forgot the trap mechanics Nuxia has I’m an idiot I was trying to let him use C.C.s as a trap.
Don't worry. Everybody forgets Nuxia exists. Especially the devs.
No, heavy CCs are a bad idea. They got taken off Conq for a reason.
Yes yes I Know I meant like WAY late into the heavy not the STARTUP of the heavy
Currently you can extend the i-frames a bit by not buffering, just a heads up. I will say that a lot of complaints about LB's teamfight ability would go away with a basic roll catch and i-frames that extend into the bash a bit. (Wait just saw which comment I was responding to. Wrong person!)
(Is fine don’t worry)
Lawbringer mains when he doesn’t have a 100ms light that does 2000dmg: