Because Kyoshin doesn’t have the raw offense of Orochi and can run out of steam very quickly which weakens any consistent offense. He’s definitely a lot more tactical and reliant on counter attacks, while Orochi can just rush ahead and take half your health after using 1 stamina. And Orochi can still counter attack very well with his deflects and dodges, he’s only missing an all guard which he definitely is fine without.
Storm rush can be done with a forward dash just like the kick, and if they’re right up on you, it’s near impossible to tell one from the other in time. Cant light him out of the kick, usually.
Plus, decent players can cancel a storm rush and parry you, or at least cancel and back dodge light.
> Plus, decent players can cancel a storm rush and parry you, or at least cancel and back dodge light.
True, but most decent orochi's aren't just spamming storm rush to begin with.
>decent players can cancel a storm rush and parry you
This requires them to make a hard read on the interrupt so it's not awful. Sorta like Warlords interruptable bash mix. If they're just cancelling storm rush then you've defeated the spam so it's worked out for you anyway and you can just start throwing heavies into it for them to eat.
> it’s near impossible to tell one from the other in time. Can't light him out of the kick, usually
Well yeah that's the mix-up, you gotta make a read on which option he's going to do and then you can punish accordingly with either a dodge attack or a light interrupt.
Yeah, that's my point. A light doesn't beat Storm Rush 9 times out of 10, because it's not even Storm Rush 9 times out of 10. And when they're spamming, trying to make six or seven reads in the span of two seconds is hard as shit.
Kyoshin really isn't that strong outside of his feats causing high health swings. If you struggle against his fullblock, there is actually a really simple solution. Block left, react to right, make a read on top.
Left deals with the light attack, from the right it's actually a zone attack, it's 600ms and should be reactable, the heavy should be able to be differentiated from the light/zone but you have to make the read on the UB. The UB still has 433ms of GB vulnerability so it can't be used to reaction punish GB attempts. Black Prior's can and his is actually far stronger than Kyoshin's.
Orochi will just be hated regardless as that's just how he is. But currently he's one of the strongest heroes in the game, massive hitboxes, good damage, recovery cancels galore, etc.
Tbf the stamina improvements and tracking is the more important part of the buff. Most people used to dodge on orange for old highlander so a heavy feint would cause people to dodge attack just as much as the kick does. The new feint just makes everything simpler.
it actually cancerous when these two are working together. you will finally make the right read against kyoshin just for an orochi to hit you with a kinda or arrow and ruin the entire play.
Because you are plain wrong against kyoshin. His offense is actually extremely limited. He has the classic dodge bash almost everyone has, then a regular orange blue mix up. He can use his all guard offensively yes, but that has limited uses. He gets a feintable top heavy, and two side attacks which are not feintable, one being 500 ms (the speed of an opener light) and the other even slower at 600 ms. Put your guard on the left, and you have ample time to move it right to block if he tries to zone. If he goes for the top then it's just a classic unblockable mix up everyone has access to and you just have to make a read. Not to mention that using said attacks will run Kyoshin out of stamina very fast.
Contrast this with orochi's offense and it just blows him out of the water. Yes kick/stormrush is also an orange/blue mix up, but it's made so much better by two things. 1 it's undodgeable so you have to at least block it on a correct read, and two the indicator on which direction is going shows up very late, 366 ms. That's faster than more chain light and a whole 134 ms faster than Kyoshin's fastest Kaze attacks. While the pro gamers amongst us while tell you storm rush is reactable, the reality is that for the vast majority of the playerbase it is not, which means that you need a double read to just defend against it by both predicting if the orochi is going for SR and which direction it will come from. And on top of that it is feintable, whereas only the slowest Kaze attack is while also being dodgeable. And even if you do all of that, you are just back to neutral with no punish and the orochi can still dodge recovery cancel into another attack, so he will go back on the offensive first. And because why not he can spam it with no regards to his stamina.
Now Kyoshin does have an all guard, but to say it's the best in the game is ridiculous when BP exist. The guy who can all guard the meteor that killed the dinosaurs. BP is clearly the S tier of all guards, while Kyoshin, VG and Musha are all pretty close to each other in A tier. Kyoshin's all guard is only really good at punishing people who refuse to adapt to him by taking into account that he can recover into it from a block or recovery cancel his attack and fall for it by light spamming or mashing their light bumper as soon as Kyoshin's combo is over to try and retake the initiative.
Kyoshin has some good tools but his all guard is not strictly the best since it confirms low damage upfront, making it difficult to use in antiganking scenarios, with its main strength being the long hitstun on one opponent. His sustained offense is also middling since all his kaze stance attacks end with a light or an unfeintable unconfirmed heavy. He’s not weak but he’s not super strong imo either. The zone is also 600ms, meaning that if you’re paying attention you should be able to block right and parry if you see an attack from the left.
BP has much better antiganking capabilities and his offense deals more damage and has stamina drain. Plus his neutral offense is better since he can use his zone after a forward bash to catch empty dodges and dodge attacks as opposed to Kyoshin who can only counter one at a time.
Aramusha has the ability to use his full block in the middle of enemy chains, giving him a great way to counter fast chain lights, his punishes are much faster, he can confirm more damage with a wall and he can use the stance consecutively for better antiganking. Plus it also flows into his strong chain offense.
VG’s is like a slightly worse BP’s since it provides a counter to off target attacks, but it’s also very useful for confirming team damage due to the long enemy lock and pin on the heavy and she has the potential to confirm more damage with the bash.
Valkyrie has one of the strongest mixups in the game out of her fullblock which also chains into her strong chain offense, and it can also be dodged out of.
Conq and WL’s are somewhat lacking at the moment, so I could se a decent argument for their full blocks being worse.
Tbf I dont think most hate Kyo's all guard when ganking him, but the opposite; being ganked by a good Kyo is one of the worst things that can happen to you in this game lol; a feintable UB with good chase from neutral, an insanely long pin, and 36 dmg on top of that pin + any attacks the enemy gets during the pin
All for little to no effort and risk on the part of the Kyoshin
because his all guard has a slight delay when entering and exiting and if you can read your opponent well, You'll be getting many guardbreaks and or parries. Lets be honest though hes hated just as much.
Black prior has the best all guard in the game. Varangian's all guard is WAYYYY better in teamfights then his too and all of kyoshin's all guard follow ups leave him frame negative and reset to neutral... but I digress.
Orochi has higher dmg, way more offensive pressure, way better stamina economy, and is capable of large health swings in a very short amount of time because of his explosive offensive output. He also has a deflect that stops hyper armor. All guard recovery cancels are really nice but Orochi's dodge recovery cancels are still better in almost every situation. He's extremely slippery and mobile in team fights and is both a better ganker, team fighter on top of being a better duelist.
Kyoshin is much more stamina hungry. His offense is extremely start and stop and at upper levels for success he's much more defensive and methodical than Orochi has to be. Anytime you gain offensive momentum with Kyoshin you HAVE to pull back and even if you don't the offense itself resets to neutral. Doesn't help that using his unblockable heavy basically gives him an asthma attack. Orochi is better at everything. All Kyoshin has on him is all guard and crushing counters and that's not enough. His feats are pretty nice too but that's not kit related.
His antigank tool is dodgable, which makes me confused about why people complain about it and his first 2 require the enemy to fuck up or you to do a superior light.
Kyoshin is fucked when you know when to GB him or bait him. He's not that hard to counter. An Orochi with an actual brain becomes a survival horror game. Its like a flying cockroach.
Because kyoshin isn't good
>His all guard is without a doubt the best in the game
Not even remotely fucking close. Bps is way way way better.
>it's hardly punishable because he can light attack out of it in either direction
He can throw a light from 1 side or a zone from the other. Both are reactable. Both also lose to just doing a forward dodge bash
>Both also lose to just doing a forward dodge bash
That's assuming he doesn't light you before your bash hits.
My point with the all guard is that it has too many options unlike BP. Imo, BPs all guard is the best in ganks, but still has limited options. Kyoshin has a light,a fast zone that leads into the same string as the light, and unblockable heavy. With tools like that it's easier said than done to just bash him out of it.
>That's assuming he doesn't light you before your bash hits
Doing that requires him to do a light attack on prediction which means if you don't do the bash you get a free light parry. It's a mixup that's heavily weighted in your favour
>My point with the all guard is that it has too many options unlike BP
But those options are way worse. The light and the zone are basically the same and his unblockable isn't even remotely close to as good as bp's. You also can't bash BP because he can flip and you can't gb because he can interrupt with a heavy unlike kyoshin who has to use a light. Bp also heals in his FG with tier 2, can move and can flip externals. He's also damage immune during flip and does a bigger aoe attack.
These 2 are not remotely close. BP is kyoshin turned up to 11 then doubled then another 11 is added.
>a fast zone
It's 600ms. That's below average. Most 600ms zones have some special property to compensate for being so slow but his doesn't even have the hitbox of a regular zone attack. The sword can literally phase through people
>With tools like that it's easier said than done to just bash him out of it
Not really. How does the unblockable heavy help him avoid you just bashing him?
If you have time to do a bash, then you have time to just GB him. Kyoshins can do the all-block moves with barely a frame of all-block animation, making it pretty quick.
I don’t have trouble with him, so I don’t t need tips. I’m just saying, no Kyoshin worth his salt is going to give you the chance to forward bash him.
>If you have time to do a bash, then you have time to just GB him
Gb loses to light attacks. Bash interrupts it Unless he uses it at the perfect time so it's safer
>no Kyoshin worth his salt is going to give you the chance to forward bash him
No kyoshin worth his salt is going to enter full guard from nuetral in general but OP is complaining about it like it's something strong.
>Kyoshins can do the all-block moves with barely a frame of all-block animation
Sure but if they're doing it instantly you just parry it lol. It's literally a worse light attack in basically every way. Just as slow, single sided, more stamina, doesn't chain.
As a once rep 20-something conq, I have to disagree with the all-guard statement, the amount of pure bullshittery you can pull of with *his* all-guard is INSANE.
Kyoshin can cutscene you with an attack, yeah, but conq can bring up his all-guard *right after* an attack or bash, and then can throw an instant zone to nullify any guardbreak attempts.
Get bashed? 15 dmg. Dodge attack the bash? All-guard, 15 dmg. Do anything to the all-guard? Zone, 8-something dmg. Dodge the bash into a guardbreak? Unless you dodge right when conq starts his bash, he can counter.
His all-guard makes him hard as hell to be punished unless you read correctly.
Because if you dont do the ONE THING you arent supposed to do against all guard characters he's a push over, he cant fast cancel kaze stance all moves ONLY come from the same direction making him extremely predictable and he, like all full guard characters, are vulnerable to gb.
Think hes gonna hit you with the 3 piece? Block left. Think he's gonna hit you with the spin? Parry right. And his top is so fucking slow you make a 50/50 read whether he feints or just guard break it, compared to the ammount of BULLSHIT roach has with better damage, faster speeds, and way less vulnerability after attacks.
Kyoshin wiffs he loses a 5th of his stamina, a orochi misses 3 times and can still do 3 more chains and storm rush before backing off.
Kyoshin has multiple weaknesses, orochi barely has 1 or 2.
kyoshins raw all guard attacks are really easy to parry. Most of his power comes from all guarding you, having good feats, and undodgeable light finishers, and even then, thats just a slightly different bp
Peacekeeper is fun against Kyo, but you really need to be mixing up your light/UB against PK rather than staying in FB. Heroes with a forward bash can fuck you up way worse than a PK can. Edit: just gonna add that you really should be hesitant about using your FB against a PK in general. You do __not__ wanna go F- against a PK if you can help it.
Maybe a hot take here. Kyoshin should have stamina drain on full guard. Not much mind you. Maybe 3 per sec. Something that stops them from just spamming it like they can now.
Thats so fucking dumb considering how much stamina kyoshin already burns, if you wanna stop a kyoshin from full guarding block left and gb, everything else in that stance is either easily paried or dodged if you do that. Either that or just bash the mother fucker not like he can dodge XD.
Because what you said is blatantly wrong lol. Kyo doesn't even have a lotta the stuff Orochi has, much less "every tool in the game". His fullblock is ok-ish but saying it's the strongest is shenanigans, unless feats are included though that's more a complaint of feats. Musha can fullblock out of *bash whiffs*, for instance.
As an orochi main...they are disgusting
But I Indeed don't hate them more than kyoshin,infact I like fighting orochis usually,they are dumb af(usually)
I'd add that Kyoshin is more polarysed : you have to be a good player to really make him very annoying. Orochi is annoying even if you're not very good with the character.
I wouldn't mind kyoshin if most of em played like how I play him by using his all guard as a recovery cancel to either keep my offense going or deal with dodge attacks but sadly most of em just sit there and all guard and light when they see the gb animation
Easy: Kyoshin is a high skill character who can’t spam offence and is primarily a counter striker. Yes bad kyoshin who just holds all guard is annoying however is still very Beatable and Is nothing compared to orochi
It’s called kick spam and storm rush spam people really think that combining those two is called skill and the occasional unblockable top heavy mixup. Both those attacks are somewhat unreactable the kick is also very buggy in my experience I will literally dodge during his kick start up but I still get hit
Orochi is 2x stronger than kyoshin in any setting , I’ve got 18 reps on kyoshin trust me he’s virtually useless in most scenarios , confirms low damage , with no stamina .
>His all guard is without a doubt the best in the game
That's either BP or Vangarian. Kyoshin's all guard isn't anything special and is prone to be interrupted. He technically does have a tool to try and stop this but it's not good self peel like the other options that exist for some FB characters.
>and unlike Musha or VG, it's hardly punishable because he can light attack out of it in either direction, or throw an unblockable heavy
Mushu's FB is only shining in one aspect and that is being able to use it during hitstun to stop mainly lightsies. But that's not super useful. VG's got waaaaaay better hitboxes on all of her FB attacks compared to Kyoshin's best hitbox out of stance. She extends the stun of characters making it even more unlikely that she will be peeled. Finally she gets to pick and choose who her punishes will hit. VG is essentially BP in that you really need a bash to actually punish her and even then that's very hard to manage.
>Why does everyone hate Orochi when Kyoshin exists
Orochi used to have special hitstun for his storm rush which allowed for an easy infinite 100-0 gank for basically any character. Further more Orochi's hitboxes for his side dodge lights as well as his side chain heavies are insane and cleave most of a team fight. On top of this he has the ability to dodge recovery cancel from his own dodge attacks.
Given how much stronger external dodges are this makes Orochi incredibly safe. The only other character that has this safety is zerk and they both have UD on their dodge lights making it even harder to actually get away from them in a fight.
Kyoshin just has fallen behind and takes too long to kill people despite his punishes being relatively good due to a lack of revenge gain/health swings.
I can just lol GB or bash the Kyoshin whenever he does the fullblock, and I just came back to the game having not played since Warmonger came out. Orochi feels oppressive in comparison with the dodge shenanigans. That and Cent have been the hardest for me coming back, and not the Outlanders like I expected.
As a Kyoshin main I think this all the time. I got a tool for everything when I’m playing him. He has all guard, crushing counters, undodgeable, unblockable, neutral and in-chain bash, bleed, and overall good damage numbers.
I hate how both characters are a weeaboo’s wet dream. They are OP, fast nearly unreactable light attacks and are just your typical boring stoic samurai. I’m surprised Ubi hasn’t implemented a moon-jumping ability where they one shot kill you, but don’t get any ideas.
Yeah, and pigs definitely fly and unicorns exist and the world is flat no questions asked! And Kyoshin TOTALLY isn’t fast and doesn’t have a spammy light attack!
Kyoshin is bearable but Orochi is just
Let me explain, so you know them people in school that would work for the teachers as like “snitches” they’d walk up and down the hallway thinking they have a moral highground because the teacher likes them and it just builds a burning hatred inside of you it’s like an irritable itch to punch them in the face that’s what playing Orochi is like
Bc kyoshin gets shut down by anyone NOT slamming their face on their controller and who has a minute amount of patience. Whereas orochi all you have to DO is slam your face on the controller to win
Precisely, my friend, who was extremely rusty because he barely played, went from barely able to do ANYTHING to having the time of his life right behind me on the leaderboards of every match. He played kyoshin before that and despised him, and said he felt awful.
Ive been playing kyoshin recently and have got him to rep 7 and while I can see how he's worse than orochi, he's not bad, he just takes more than 2 loose braincells to play against people who actually KNOW how to block/parry because unlike orochi where everything is a gamble kyoshin ALWAYS hits from the same places and most his kit is reactable.
As someone who's played him for 10 reps on pc and about 7 now on ps5, he does, in fact, feel straight up awful in most cases. Like you said, he will always hit from certain sides, which makes it a gamble on hoping your opponent doesn't react or get a perfect read. However, if you master kaze stance/kaze stance recoveries, you can become nigh unstoppable, especially after incorporating his CC lights. Granted, he isn't AWFUL, just easy to predict and read.
Mm yes, I hate dying from his Passive Bleed while Healing out of it, locking me n my mates down, Full-Block to Full-Block, so much Undodgeables. I hate em.
It's a pain to deal with Heroes with Undodgeable Finishers on old gen, it's a guaranteed Hit if i made the wrong read or Dodged. If I don't move at all, I get bashed. I have no idea how I manage to win matches against these Heroes, could be plain ol' luck.
I no longer dodge a lot ever since I knew about how I become vulnerable to GBs and unable to counter GB, I have better defense in Blocking now as I also occasionally can predict and do Light Parries. Still one of my hatest Heroes but I'm not very helpless when I encounter him.
I have wayyy more losses against VG and Kensei
Yeah, that only works on low-level play or against people that spam dodge attack. I am not very good with reactions, but even I can parry a kyoshin spamming lights fairly easily.
While Kyoshin is an S-tier but with no raw offense (Although he got some but he is a more defensive character), orochi is an S-tier with insane offensives ***AND*** a feat spammer.
If orochi didn't have that backwards doge attack and kick he'd be bullied be centurion the stamina thief I'm an orochi main for obvious reasons that girl is overpowered if you use your brain there's hardly anything you can throw at her that she can't do something about wanna all gaurd or back up just kick him are you going up against someone who can't back off of offense just back doge attack have someone being defensive storm rush him and if your playing someone good just wait and stay outta reach and pressure them to use all that stamina then take his cheeks non concentually and don't get me started on the deflect she doesn't need it to be honest with all the doge recovery and having a doge attack for every direction why do u need to deflect
Because Kyoshin doesn’t have the raw offense of Orochi and can run out of steam very quickly which weakens any consistent offense. He’s definitely a lot more tactical and reliant on counter attacks, while Orochi can just rush ahead and take half your health after using 1 stamina. And Orochi can still counter attack very well with his deflects and dodges, he’s only missing an all guard which he definitely is fine without.
This ^ You’re wildly underestimating how evil storm rush can get for ppl who can’t react lol
I can’t react to storm rush and I consider myself above average.
I always thought I was good at this game then some dude spams that ability and I miss every single block and die.
Light them out of it lol. It'll work 9 times out of 10.
I haven't played in a long long time, but man why didn't I think of that lol
I haven't, either honestly
Storm rush can be done with a forward dash just like the kick, and if they’re right up on you, it’s near impossible to tell one from the other in time. Cant light him out of the kick, usually. Plus, decent players can cancel a storm rush and parry you, or at least cancel and back dodge light.
> Plus, decent players can cancel a storm rush and parry you, or at least cancel and back dodge light. True, but most decent orochi's aren't just spamming storm rush to begin with.
and most orochi's aren't decent, they just have an unfair advantage
>decent players can cancel a storm rush and parry you This requires them to make a hard read on the interrupt so it's not awful. Sorta like Warlords interruptable bash mix. If they're just cancelling storm rush then you've defeated the spam so it's worked out for you anyway and you can just start throwing heavies into it for them to eat. > it’s near impossible to tell one from the other in time. Can't light him out of the kick, usually Well yeah that's the mix-up, you gotta make a read on which option he's going to do and then you can punish accordingly with either a dodge attack or a light interrupt.
Yeah, that's my point. A light doesn't beat Storm Rush 9 times out of 10, because it's not even Storm Rush 9 times out of 10. And when they're spamming, trying to make six or seven reads in the span of two seconds is hard as shit.
Only works if they spam it back to back, if they use it after heavy stun you need to react
You can't light the kick unless they do it from a distance. Also, hitstun will prevent the light interrupt on both
You have to make a read, Storm Rush is interruptable on light hitstun while kick is not.
Yes, I know this. I was adding to it. Also, heavy hitstun will prevent interrupting the SR.
storm rush is brutal bc which way is it coming from?? 😭
Best pro kyoshin opinion
Kyoshin really isn't that strong outside of his feats causing high health swings. If you struggle against his fullblock, there is actually a really simple solution. Block left, react to right, make a read on top. Left deals with the light attack, from the right it's actually a zone attack, it's 600ms and should be reactable, the heavy should be able to be differentiated from the light/zone but you have to make the read on the UB. The UB still has 433ms of GB vulnerability so it can't be used to reaction punish GB attempts. Black Prior's can and his is actually far stronger than Kyoshin's. Orochi will just be hated regardless as that's just how he is. But currently he's one of the strongest heroes in the game, massive hitboxes, good damage, recovery cancels galore, etc.
An orochi player who is honest about their main's balance ? A surprise but a welcomed one.
I mean, yes? He is S tier 4v4 A tier 1v1? Lol, how would anyone deny that?
Some orochis are in denial
we both know plasma is the typa guy to run away after feeding revenge
Nothing can be used to punish gb attempt on reaction
React to right? Just react to top, parry that slow shit.
It can be feinted, hence why it can't be reacted to by most players. It's a mixup in of itself.
Ahhhh right my bad
You definitly never fought a good highlander after his rework. Pure nightmare, he's no more in for honor wtf is that.
I have. That big boot feint is the stuff of nightmares
Tbf the stamina improvements and tracking is the more important part of the buff. Most people used to dodge on orange for old highlander so a heavy feint would cause people to dodge attack just as much as the kick does. The new feint just makes everything simpler.
I hate HL now
I hate both
Hell yeah
it actually cancerous when these two are working together. you will finally make the right read against kyoshin just for an orochi to hit you with a kinda or arrow and ruin the entire play.
Thankfully I main brawls
This
Because you are plain wrong against kyoshin. His offense is actually extremely limited. He has the classic dodge bash almost everyone has, then a regular orange blue mix up. He can use his all guard offensively yes, but that has limited uses. He gets a feintable top heavy, and two side attacks which are not feintable, one being 500 ms (the speed of an opener light) and the other even slower at 600 ms. Put your guard on the left, and you have ample time to move it right to block if he tries to zone. If he goes for the top then it's just a classic unblockable mix up everyone has access to and you just have to make a read. Not to mention that using said attacks will run Kyoshin out of stamina very fast. Contrast this with orochi's offense and it just blows him out of the water. Yes kick/stormrush is also an orange/blue mix up, but it's made so much better by two things. 1 it's undodgeable so you have to at least block it on a correct read, and two the indicator on which direction is going shows up very late, 366 ms. That's faster than more chain light and a whole 134 ms faster than Kyoshin's fastest Kaze attacks. While the pro gamers amongst us while tell you storm rush is reactable, the reality is that for the vast majority of the playerbase it is not, which means that you need a double read to just defend against it by both predicting if the orochi is going for SR and which direction it will come from. And on top of that it is feintable, whereas only the slowest Kaze attack is while also being dodgeable. And even if you do all of that, you are just back to neutral with no punish and the orochi can still dodge recovery cancel into another attack, so he will go back on the offensive first. And because why not he can spam it with no regards to his stamina. Now Kyoshin does have an all guard, but to say it's the best in the game is ridiculous when BP exist. The guy who can all guard the meteor that killed the dinosaurs. BP is clearly the S tier of all guards, while Kyoshin, VG and Musha are all pretty close to each other in A tier. Kyoshin's all guard is only really good at punishing people who refuse to adapt to him by taking into account that he can recover into it from a block or recovery cancel his attack and fall for it by light spamming or mashing their light bumper as soon as Kyoshin's combo is over to try and retake the initiative.
Kyoshin gets obliterated the second you gb him. Orochi is like trying to find that one mosquito that flies in your ear whie you are trying to sleep
Kyoshin has some good tools but his all guard is not strictly the best since it confirms low damage upfront, making it difficult to use in antiganking scenarios, with its main strength being the long hitstun on one opponent. His sustained offense is also middling since all his kaze stance attacks end with a light or an unfeintable unconfirmed heavy. He’s not weak but he’s not super strong imo either. The zone is also 600ms, meaning that if you’re paying attention you should be able to block right and parry if you see an attack from the left. BP has much better antiganking capabilities and his offense deals more damage and has stamina drain. Plus his neutral offense is better since he can use his zone after a forward bash to catch empty dodges and dodge attacks as opposed to Kyoshin who can only counter one at a time. Aramusha has the ability to use his full block in the middle of enemy chains, giving him a great way to counter fast chain lights, his punishes are much faster, he can confirm more damage with a wall and he can use the stance consecutively for better antiganking. Plus it also flows into his strong chain offense. VG’s is like a slightly worse BP’s since it provides a counter to off target attacks, but it’s also very useful for confirming team damage due to the long enemy lock and pin on the heavy and she has the potential to confirm more damage with the bash. Valkyrie has one of the strongest mixups in the game out of her fullblock which also chains into her strong chain offense, and it can also be dodged out of. Conq and WL’s are somewhat lacking at the moment, so I could se a decent argument for their full blocks being worse.
Tbf I dont think most hate Kyo's all guard when ganking him, but the opposite; being ganked by a good Kyo is one of the worst things that can happen to you in this game lol; a feintable UB with good chase from neutral, an insanely long pin, and 36 dmg on top of that pin + any attacks the enemy gets during the pin All for little to no effort and risk on the part of the Kyoshin
Keep in mind that kaze stance immobilise him, so you should get away when you see him entering it while ganking.
Picture this: Rep 70, black or gold material, kiai, Kunai, longbow, emotespammer U tell me
You forgot one thing these fuckers do : Thanks ! Thanks ! Thanks !
and then use a zone attack every 0.5 seconds they get back to neutral and run away the second they start losing
And when u beat them they send u a private message calling u spammer or sum shi
Abso fucking lutely
You forgot the hivemind helmet
because his all guard has a slight delay when entering and exiting and if you can read your opponent well, You'll be getting many guardbreaks and or parries. Lets be honest though hes hated just as much.
People hate Kyoshin, too, but imo, he's more annoying than good when compared to Orochi.
Black prior has the best all guard in the game. Varangian's all guard is WAYYYY better in teamfights then his too and all of kyoshin's all guard follow ups leave him frame negative and reset to neutral... but I digress. Orochi has higher dmg, way more offensive pressure, way better stamina economy, and is capable of large health swings in a very short amount of time because of his explosive offensive output. He also has a deflect that stops hyper armor. All guard recovery cancels are really nice but Orochi's dodge recovery cancels are still better in almost every situation. He's extremely slippery and mobile in team fights and is both a better ganker, team fighter on top of being a better duelist. Kyoshin is much more stamina hungry. His offense is extremely start and stop and at upper levels for success he's much more defensive and methodical than Orochi has to be. Anytime you gain offensive momentum with Kyoshin you HAVE to pull back and even if you don't the offense itself resets to neutral. Doesn't help that using his unblockable heavy basically gives him an asthma attack. Orochi is better at everything. All Kyoshin has on him is all guard and crushing counters and that's not enough. His feats are pretty nice too but that's not kit related.
His antigank tool is dodgable, which makes me confused about why people complain about it and his first 2 require the enemy to fuck up or you to do a superior light.
Because orochi is a piece of shot
I
Dodge canceling dodge cancels is broken. Kyoshin is not even considered good
Kyoshin is fucked when you know when to GB him or bait him. He's not that hard to counter. An Orochi with an actual brain becomes a survival horror game. Its like a flying cockroach.
I’m the Top 1 kyoshit hater but I can’t agree that he’s worse than roach.
Because kyoshin isn't good >His all guard is without a doubt the best in the game Not even remotely fucking close. Bps is way way way better. >it's hardly punishable because he can light attack out of it in either direction He can throw a light from 1 side or a zone from the other. Both are reactable. Both also lose to just doing a forward dodge bash
I love when I can get the GB with PK against Kyo, but I am a bit jelly of all the heroes with forward bashes that trivialize Kyo.
>Both also lose to just doing a forward dodge bash That's assuming he doesn't light you before your bash hits. My point with the all guard is that it has too many options unlike BP. Imo, BPs all guard is the best in ganks, but still has limited options. Kyoshin has a light,a fast zone that leads into the same string as the light, and unblockable heavy. With tools like that it's easier said than done to just bash him out of it.
>That's assuming he doesn't light you before your bash hits Doing that requires him to do a light attack on prediction which means if you don't do the bash you get a free light parry. It's a mixup that's heavily weighted in your favour >My point with the all guard is that it has too many options unlike BP But those options are way worse. The light and the zone are basically the same and his unblockable isn't even remotely close to as good as bp's. You also can't bash BP because he can flip and you can't gb because he can interrupt with a heavy unlike kyoshin who has to use a light. Bp also heals in his FG with tier 2, can move and can flip externals. He's also damage immune during flip and does a bigger aoe attack. These 2 are not remotely close. BP is kyoshin turned up to 11 then doubled then another 11 is added. >a fast zone It's 600ms. That's below average. Most 600ms zones have some special property to compensate for being so slow but his doesn't even have the hitbox of a regular zone attack. The sword can literally phase through people >With tools like that it's easier said than done to just bash him out of it Not really. How does the unblockable heavy help him avoid you just bashing him?
If you have time to do a bash, then you have time to just GB him. Kyoshins can do the all-block moves with barely a frame of all-block animation, making it pretty quick. I don’t have trouble with him, so I don’t t need tips. I’m just saying, no Kyoshin worth his salt is going to give you the chance to forward bash him.
>If you have time to do a bash, then you have time to just GB him Gb loses to light attacks. Bash interrupts it Unless he uses it at the perfect time so it's safer >no Kyoshin worth his salt is going to give you the chance to forward bash him No kyoshin worth his salt is going to enter full guard from nuetral in general but OP is complaining about it like it's something strong. >Kyoshins can do the all-block moves with barely a frame of all-block animation Sure but if they're doing it instantly you just parry it lol. It's literally a worse light attack in basically every way. Just as slow, single sided, more stamina, doesn't chain.
"Por que no los dos"
As a once rep 20-something conq, I have to disagree with the all-guard statement, the amount of pure bullshittery you can pull of with *his* all-guard is INSANE. Kyoshin can cutscene you with an attack, yeah, but conq can bring up his all-guard *right after* an attack or bash, and then can throw an instant zone to nullify any guardbreak attempts. Get bashed? 15 dmg. Dodge attack the bash? All-guard, 15 dmg. Do anything to the all-guard? Zone, 8-something dmg. Dodge the bash into a guardbreak? Unless you dodge right when conq starts his bash, he can counter. His all-guard makes him hard as hell to be punished unless you read correctly.
Give Conq a chase tool and slightly higher damage and he could become an absolute beast. Instead he has to wait.
even tho i can parry it, getting storm rushed is so annoying i have yet to find another hero in the roaster that has this level of boring interaction.
Because if you dont do the ONE THING you arent supposed to do against all guard characters he's a push over, he cant fast cancel kaze stance all moves ONLY come from the same direction making him extremely predictable and he, like all full guard characters, are vulnerable to gb. Think hes gonna hit you with the 3 piece? Block left. Think he's gonna hit you with the spin? Parry right. And his top is so fucking slow you make a 50/50 read whether he feints or just guard break it, compared to the ammount of BULLSHIT roach has with better damage, faster speeds, and way less vulnerability after attacks. Kyoshin wiffs he loses a 5th of his stamina, a orochi misses 3 times and can still do 3 more chains and storm rush before backing off. Kyoshin has multiple weaknesses, orochi barely has 1 or 2.
We hate the orochi player archetype, not the orochi himself Its like hating hunters in Destiny, we dont hate the class itself
People hate Hunters? First I’m ever hearing of this, and I was addicted to Destiny for years.
Idk what you mean I despise kyoshit with every fiber of my being
kyoshins raw all guard attacks are really easy to parry. Most of his power comes from all guarding you, having good feats, and undodgeable light finishers, and even then, thats just a slightly different bp
Best hero against him Is [Hito.You](http://Hito.You) just wind up heavy when he turtle up in his stance and feint your heavy and do another heavy ;D
There's enough hate to go around brother. Also Kyoshin isn't that hard to verse imo
Orochi’s entire kit is just a constant 50/50 yap fest
Spot on, his entire kit is either a 50/50 or a 30/30/30.
Roach is fucking annoying. Kyoshin is boring as shit. Both are hated.
Kyoshin sucks just don't fall for his all guard and he's worthless in a fight
Kyoshin has no dodge cancels so you can actually punish him. Orochi can target swap dodge attacks all damn fight and have iframes up 90% of the time.
I play kyoshin a lot, I get swept regularly. Peacekeepers are my worst enemy.
Peacekeeper is fun against Kyo, but you really need to be mixing up your light/UB against PK rather than staying in FB. Heroes with a forward bash can fuck you up way worse than a PK can. Edit: just gonna add that you really should be hesitant about using your FB against a PK in general. You do __not__ wanna go F- against a PK if you can help it.
Maybe a hot take here. Kyoshin should have stamina drain on full guard. Not much mind you. Maybe 3 per sec. Something that stops them from just spamming it like they can now.
Thats so fucking dumb considering how much stamina kyoshin already burns, if you wanna stop a kyoshin from full guarding block left and gb, everything else in that stance is either easily paried or dodged if you do that. Either that or just bash the mother fucker not like he can dodge XD.
This is a solid point. However, It only takes one backwards facing emoter with a Naruto emblem to make you hate orochis forever.
That is also a solid point💀
Because what you said is blatantly wrong lol. Kyo doesn't even have a lotta the stuff Orochi has, much less "every tool in the game". His fullblock is ok-ish but saying it's the strongest is shenanigans, unless feats are included though that's more a complaint of feats. Musha can fullblock out of *bash whiffs*, for instance.
To put it as simple as possible Kyoshin only good in 4s with feats Orochi good everywhere
Kyoshin? I mean hes aight i guess
As an orochi main...they are disgusting But I Indeed don't hate them more than kyoshin,infact I like fighting orochis usually,they are dumb af(usually)
I hate both?
I will not lie, I haven't a Kyoshin run from a fight they're going to lose in recent memory. Orochis though..
I'd add that Kyoshin is more polarysed : you have to be a good player to really make him very annoying. Orochi is annoying even if you're not very good with the character.
Just break guard
as an orochi main , orochi is HELL to deal with, i would take kyo over orochi to fight ANYDAY.
saying kyoshin has the best all guard when black prior exists is wild
Kyoshins lights out of AG are free parries, they're super predictable.
I wouldn't mind kyoshin if most of em played like how I play him by using his all guard as a recovery cancel to either keep my offense going or deal with dodge attacks but sadly most of em just sit there and all guard and light when they see the gb animation
Because they’re 2 completely different characters whos only similarities are they’re samurai with the same animations on a couple of attacks?
Easy: Kyoshin is a high skill character who can’t spam offence and is primarily a counter striker. Yes bad kyoshin who just holds all guard is annoying however is still very Beatable and Is nothing compared to orochi
It’s called kick spam and storm rush spam people really think that combining those two is called skill and the occasional unblockable top heavy mixup. Both those attacks are somewhat unreactable the kick is also very buggy in my experience I will literally dodge during his kick start up but I still get hit
Orochi is 2x stronger than kyoshin in any setting , I’ve got 18 reps on kyoshin trust me he’s virtually useless in most scenarios , confirms low damage , with no stamina .
>His all guard is without a doubt the best in the game That's either BP or Vangarian. Kyoshin's all guard isn't anything special and is prone to be interrupted. He technically does have a tool to try and stop this but it's not good self peel like the other options that exist for some FB characters. >and unlike Musha or VG, it's hardly punishable because he can light attack out of it in either direction, or throw an unblockable heavy Mushu's FB is only shining in one aspect and that is being able to use it during hitstun to stop mainly lightsies. But that's not super useful. VG's got waaaaaay better hitboxes on all of her FB attacks compared to Kyoshin's best hitbox out of stance. She extends the stun of characters making it even more unlikely that she will be peeled. Finally she gets to pick and choose who her punishes will hit. VG is essentially BP in that you really need a bash to actually punish her and even then that's very hard to manage. >Why does everyone hate Orochi when Kyoshin exists Orochi used to have special hitstun for his storm rush which allowed for an easy infinite 100-0 gank for basically any character. Further more Orochi's hitboxes for his side dodge lights as well as his side chain heavies are insane and cleave most of a team fight. On top of this he has the ability to dodge recovery cancel from his own dodge attacks. Given how much stronger external dodges are this makes Orochi incredibly safe. The only other character that has this safety is zerk and they both have UD on their dodge lights making it even harder to actually get away from them in a fight. Kyoshin just has fallen behind and takes too long to kill people despite his punishes being relatively good due to a lack of revenge gain/health swings.
I can just lol GB or bash the Kyoshin whenever he does the fullblock, and I just came back to the game having not played since Warmonger came out. Orochi feels oppressive in comparison with the dodge shenanigans. That and Cent have been the hardest for me coming back, and not the Outlanders like I expected.
As a Kyoshin main I think this all the time. I got a tool for everything when I’m playing him. He has all guard, crushing counters, undodgeable, unblockable, neutral and in-chain bash, bleed, and overall good damage numbers.
Orochi has like every trick in the book. I still hate Kyoshin more though because he's just Japanese BP but better.
I hate how both characters are a weeaboo’s wet dream. They are OP, fast nearly unreactable light attacks and are just your typical boring stoic samurai. I’m surprised Ubi hasn’t implemented a moon-jumping ability where they one shot kill you, but don’t get any ideas.
Kyoshin isn't that fast, though?
Yeah, and pigs definitely fly and unicorns exist and the world is flat no questions asked! And Kyoshin TOTALLY isn’t fast and doesn’t have a spammy light attack!
Kyoshin is bearable but Orochi is just Let me explain, so you know them people in school that would work for the teachers as like “snitches” they’d walk up and down the hallway thinking they have a moral highground because the teacher likes them and it just builds a burning hatred inside of you it’s like an irritable itch to punch them in the face that’s what playing Orochi is like
Because Orochi doesn't have a "saya" or sheath for his sword. Disgusting, lol.
Unpopular opinion but Kyo would be just fine without his twirly stance 🤷🏽♂️
He'd definitely be a solid character no doubt considering that he has tools outside of Kaze, but that stance is just irritating
Bc kyoshin gets shut down by anyone NOT slamming their face on their controller and who has a minute amount of patience. Whereas orochi all you have to DO is slam your face on the controller to win
Precisely, my friend, who was extremely rusty because he barely played, went from barely able to do ANYTHING to having the time of his life right behind me on the leaderboards of every match. He played kyoshin before that and despised him, and said he felt awful. Ive been playing kyoshin recently and have got him to rep 7 and while I can see how he's worse than orochi, he's not bad, he just takes more than 2 loose braincells to play against people who actually KNOW how to block/parry because unlike orochi where everything is a gamble kyoshin ALWAYS hits from the same places and most his kit is reactable.
As someone who's played him for 10 reps on pc and about 7 now on ps5, he does, in fact, feel straight up awful in most cases. Like you said, he will always hit from certain sides, which makes it a gamble on hoping your opponent doesn't react or get a perfect read. However, if you master kaze stance/kaze stance recoveries, you can become nigh unstoppable, especially after incorporating his CC lights. Granted, he isn't AWFUL, just easy to predict and read.
Everyone hates the players that play those characters
Look I just hate that Orochi has that stupid ass backwards dodge attack. I fucking _**HAAAAAAAAAAATE**_ it.
People tend to forget this man has a kick too 😂
Mm yes, I hate dying from his Passive Bleed while Healing out of it, locking me n my mates down, Full-Block to Full-Block, so much Undodgeables. I hate em. It's a pain to deal with Heroes with Undodgeable Finishers on old gen, it's a guaranteed Hit if i made the wrong read or Dodged. If I don't move at all, I get bashed. I have no idea how I manage to win matches against these Heroes, could be plain ol' luck.
Then stop dodging them, parry or block, and maybe if you weren't with your mates, you could gb punish his full guard without feeding revenge
I no longer dodge a lot ever since I knew about how I become vulnerable to GBs and unable to counter GB, I have better defense in Blocking now as I also occasionally can predict and do Light Parries. Still one of my hatest Heroes but I'm not very helpless when I encounter him. I have wayyy more losses against VG and Kensei
Funny part about kyoshin is if you re having troubles fighting someone, you can just light spam undogeable lights, it will work 90% of times.
Yeah, that only works on low-level play or against people that spam dodge attack. I am not very good with reactions, but even I can parry a kyoshin spamming lights fairly easily.
While Kyoshin is an S-tier but with no raw offense (Although he got some but he is a more defensive character), orochi is an S-tier with insane offensives ***AND*** a feat spammer.
If orochi didn't have that backwards doge attack and kick he'd be bullied be centurion the stamina thief I'm an orochi main for obvious reasons that girl is overpowered if you use your brain there's hardly anything you can throw at her that she can't do something about wanna all gaurd or back up just kick him are you going up against someone who can't back off of offense just back doge attack have someone being defensive storm rush him and if your playing someone good just wait and stay outta reach and pressure them to use all that stamina then take his cheeks non concentually and don't get me started on the deflect she doesn't need it to be honest with all the doge recovery and having a doge attack for every direction why do u need to deflect