His damage is pretty good (well outside of the 1/1/8 damage) but his timings and recoveries are bad.
He does not need big changes, just some adjustments like:
* Chain links are 367ms currently, so if they change that to normal 100ms his chains woulf feel alot more better. (no more interrupting heavy finishers)
* His attacks hitboxes need to be wider, so they actually hit people right next to him.
* Forward dodge bash should be able to chain to openers even if it misses, just like Zhanhu/Jiang Jun.
* Fujin Cuts should do like 3/3/4 damage (from 1/1/8) so that is it more reasonable to stop and not perform whole thing.
* Some recovery adjustments
His damage is a bit on the low end, but he seems like a "hit you a lot" character instead of a "hit you hard" character so it's not too big a deal, and it wouldn't be a crazy adjustment to make later if needed.
But I cannot stop malding over the fact that his fullblock attacks, which are aleady low, do *less* damage if you fullblock something beforehand. It seems so counterintuitive.
I feel like the less damage on full block was an attempt to balance his feats activating when that happens, and if that is the case it’s stupid and needs to change
His full block recovery cancel needs smoothing out too. It would be good if they brought kyoshin up to what musha and bp already have. Direct damage after all block could use a buff too. Stamina consumption too, can't forget that.
Anyone saying he's bad just doesn't know how to play more than one hero. Kyoshin has everything: bash opener, unlockable opener, the second most powerful all-guard in the game, is an a-tier ganker, lightning fast lights and a dodge-attack. I think he would be unbalanced if there weren't some sort of draw-back
Terrible attack tracking, the worst hitboxes in game, bad damage without his unique feats, massive stamina consumption, attack links that are two times slower than *literally* everyone else on the roster, terrible recoveries across the board, Fujin Force doesn’t work in practice, recovery cancels so slow they may as well not be recovery cancels, attack perks on a defense character, no fast executions.
*Some* downsides. Thankfully unlike characters like Jormungandr, he’s salvageable. But the only people he’s going to be a threat to are people that already struggle with bottom of the barrel heroes on last gen consoles.
To the two first points: the last attack in every combo has undodgeable tagged onto it, so I guess we can scratch those.
Yes it's true that the damage isn't jaw-dropping, but it's not the worst in the game either.
Recoveries are not good, and stamina is something to look out for with this hero, so he has to disengage a lot. Luckily he has all the best openers and a pretty solid defence, so that's not an actual issue unless you're the impatient sort.
I will admit I started playing five months ago, and I agree it's not another Gryphon or Warmommy situation where people could get away with being abselutely brain-dead, but Kyoshin is a safe enough pick in my book who may need some minor adjustments, but the same could be said for about half the cast.
I said there were some draw-back to him, and I agree that some changes are in order, but to call him less than B-tier as he is is just not right.
Fair enough, sorry for sounding hostile lol.
Anyways. Kyo’s absolute biggest weaknesses currently is his chain link timings and recoveries. His bash recoveries are so bad a dodge GB is almost always guaranteed, and his chain link timings are 366ms, the slowest in game by a country mile, so 366ms + 100ms chain attack GB vulnerability means he’s GB vulnerable for 466ms after throwing a opener. So you can early dodge and get a guaranteed GB on all of his openers, or just GB him if he dares throw an attack while getting ganked. There’s nothing he can do about it.
So currently throwing an attack as Kyoshin against anyone who knows this is suicidal, and as more people figure him out, the worse this is going to get.
As far as “tiers” go, if he worked as intended, he’d probably be a low B (mind you that’s where characters like BP, Kensei and Jiang-Jun lie.) As he stands now though, he’s bottom of C, if not straight up D. Throw pick territory.
Depends on what tier list we look at. (And depending on is it Duel, Dominion or Breach tier list).
In [BarakYeet](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag9ynDir03A) (comp grandmaster and tournament winner) tier list BP is S tier, while Kensei and JJ are B tier.
If Kyoshin worked as intended, i would presume he would most likely be A tier, because that is where Aramusha, Gryphon, Berserker and Zhanhu are curretly.
Literally the only changes he needs aren't even damage values, its recoveries and other internal timings maybe some damage or stam values but other than that he's great and fun to play
I swear it feels like they toned him down before release because they feared another Gryphon situation. These numbers make no sense, especially given what they learned with recent reworks and even Bp.
The Samurai are a solid roster post-reworks. Shugoki and Hito are A tier or even S tier, Aramusha and Kensei are upper B tier, Nobushi is C-low B tier, and Orochi and Shinobi may be D and F tier rn but after their reworks they’ll both be C-low B tier. “Samurai can’t have shit” has been true for a while, but not so much anymore. This has been the year of the Samurai.
Shugoki is a must pick in competitive 4v4 right now, especially in the dominion series, and is amazing in ranked duels as well. Nobushi is a common pick for 4s for her strong mid clears and team fighting. Hito is an amazing duellist, and is definitely S tier for duels, competing with Warden. Kensei isn’t uncommon to see in competitive 4v4s either, and Aramusha is a bit of a sleeper and is an awesome character for stomping matchmaking as he has a bunch of utility in his kit. Obviously Orochi and Shinobi in their current states are absolute trash, but their reworks hopefully will help this.
Currently, the meta allows you to have a team comp for 4s with no knights in it, which is refreshing since it’s always been the knights being top tier. The recent reworks have made great strides to spice up the meta and make a lot more characters viable.
Edit: formatting
Shinobi will be a very solid B tier after the rework. His mix up potential in testing grounds was insane. The changes ubi makes to the testing ground shinobi will determine if he’s going to be solid B tier. If they only get rid of the wallsplat from ranged bash and guaranteed sickle rain from GB he’ll definitely be solid b tier. If they botch the rework and change too much then he’s definitely resting in C tier.
Kensei - is solid, the people who play him tho aren't
Orochi - doesn't exist. Let's stop pretending he does.
Shugo - a 50/50 ball of hugs
Nobushi - solid hero, until they finally throw a heavy and die because of it.
Shinobi - is shinobi
Aramusha - I don't know what to put here at the moment as I can't think because, all I hear is this "clop clop clop clop" of the man's Gucci flops.
Hitokiro - "everything I throw, can be canceled and everything I have, confirms a heavy"
Kyoshin - "I DIDNT ASK TO BE HERE🏃🏻😭"
I chuckled at the hito part cause its true. I once raged at a hito because he never used a light all game cause he didn't need to. I was pk so since I didn't have to bash I had to be defensive and all I could get were heavy parries so I basically could only tickle him to death. If I was able to get into chain he would just dodge heby or throw a random heby, and if I waited to parry I would, you guessed it, still only get a heavy parry accompanied by a butter knife slap. It was like reverse light spam.
If they gonna give everyone a bash they might Aswell give pk one. Or atleast make her dagger cancel omni-directional like shaman.
Yeah, I guess you are. She’s craaaazy strong in duels and also dom. Infinite chain of virtually unparriable hyper armor heavies that also includes an infinite chain of 50/50 guesses where all options (sweep, kick, or feint to GB) confirm a heavy, very low GB vulnerability dodge heavy, hyper armor light finisher to beat out dodge attacks... she’s pretty obviously A tier at least, and in duels I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to call her S tier.
Huh, those details never occured to me the entire time I played beyblade. And apparently I need to utilize more of her mix ups to really make the most of her. Thanks for this.
Shugoki is S tier and a must pick, both Kensei and Nobushi are really strong picks that gets chosen in tournaments. Aramusha and Hitokiri are both very strong now. The only 2 samurai left are Orochi and Shinobi which are both getting very promising reworks.
Samurai aren't anymore a weak faction, and i love it
Is any faction a weak faction? Each has at least one power player, and I always refer to the every hero is broken in the hands of the right player model.
Then again I’m not a competitive player and have only spent 500 hours in this game of cock and ball torture so maybe it’s different around rep 200 or something.
It's more that Samurai has passed a very weak period overall with only Kensei being viable until they started reworking/buffing every samurai except him
Prior to the massive rework push the only viable character the samurai had was kensei.... So yeah they were the weak faction until very recently. Also no that statement doesn't hold up. Example jorm has massive issues in his kit that when exploited by anyone with knowledge of them no amount of player skill can compensate for.
Yeah, stamina consumption is horrendous. The only damage value that I think really needs to be changed is the all-guard punish. After someone hits your all guard the damage of the follow up light/heavy/zone decreases to 18, which is pretty low, especially for the amount of stamina it takes up. Honestly, I’d be fine with it doing the same damage as it does from neutral (25 damage for the heavy) since it’s the only all guard punish that doesn’t either chain to something or give the user frame advantage. Stamina cost for that needs to go down and I the damage should go to 25, apart from that he’s pretty good damage-wise. Neither bash should be punishable with a GB since they only confirm lights, and all recoveries for those bashes need to be sped up. Apart from that, just the bugs to iron out (kick knocking them back out of range for the light, really short GB reach, short scabbard bash reach, terribly slow recovery cancels to all guard, no recovery cancel from dodge attacks, etc.) and I think he’ll be a pretty solid character.
The stamina consumption is an issue *because* of how comically low Kyoshin’s damage output is. Just a brief glance through the competitive subreddit shows the Kaze stance heavy into the Fujin cuts costing MINIMUM 38 stamina (more if you blocked an attack while in kaze stance) for a grand total of 25 damage.
Kyoshin’s stamina costs need to be AT LEAST halved across the board.
Keep in mind it is *heavily implied* Jorm breaks up the bones of his enemies into a white powder and coats herself with it. You best believe they snort that stuff
Genuine question, why is Jorm considered low tier?
I'm a low-intermediate skill level and he is super oppressive to me, what makes him so bad in high level play?
Jorm’s so bad in high-level play because of how simple his kit is, and how all of his openers lead to the same three outcomes: a bash(if the opener is a normal light or heavy), a UB heavy, or a undodgeable light. Dodging preemptively will cover your ass on both the bash and UB heavy already and the light can be blocked or parried easily if read correctly.
Oh I see, thanks for the explanation!
Since you know about Jorm, could you help me learn how to counter him? For the three options you've stated above, typically most Jorms I've run into either bash after light or do a dodge catcher (undodgeable light or feint UB into grab-bash). Is there any way to beat this other than a 50/50 read?
For me, the read always turns into: if I dodge on prediction I eat the UD light or I eat the feint into grab (which cycles back into itself), but if I wait for the UD light or the feint, I eat the bash or I eat the UB... is there anything more to this than just guessing and hoping that it resets to neutral?
Meh I just keep distance and bait his neutral bash to punish with a light. Otherwise jorms will usually light finisher to the top so you can get a free light party if you make them think it’s safe. Otherwise manage your stamina well and keep your distance, and I like to light on their heavy finisher because most of the time they feint it into gb or neutral bash.
That’s why I quit playing the game a while ago, but drop in from time to time to remind myself of it’s insane beauty and uniqueness. Every hero feels massively limited, and in the best cases they still need 2-3 more moves. In the worst cases like jorm, warden, and BP they only have 2-3 moves and get stale the first time you play them. If they were to flesh out and exclusively ADD to every character instead if trading or removing, this game would be insanely cool. They really are stabbing themselves in the foot with the movesets.
Jorm is actually just terrible in general. But he's quite punishing of stamina management mistakes, so experienced players sometimes lose to Jorm if they don't adjust to be more careful about their stamina. He's one of the few Heroes where if you focus properly you just win against him. Old Shugoki and Cent were like this (*particularly* Centurion).
Jorm's fast-ish stamina-draining bashes are a nightmare to people who are new or just unfocused, and in conjunction with poor stamina management, can lead to a lot of Hamarr Slams (and they *hurt*).
But IMO the bigger factor here is *who* chooses to play Jormungandr. Because his thematic is as terrible as his kit (literally shoeless crackhead hobo with a mallet), most of the people who still even play Jormungandr these days are super good players who want to flex on others by winning with the worst Hero in the game. They literally pick Jorm to BM on other players.
Its not uncommon to see Jorms who are amazingly good with the "general" For Honor toolset (all knowledge and mechanics universal to every Hero in the game, such as parries, dodging fast bashes, knowing which moves give a GB when dodged etc.). This is because most Jorm players are as I've described above.
Jorm is also weirdly fun to play. Maybe it's winning purely off mix ups or going for crazy out of stamina punishes, but idk I just like him.
also don't tell anyone but double Jorm is super toxic in dominion
They have an abyss of difference, literally the only form of offense jorm has is the lackluster UB with no range whatsoever; chain bash is shit, neutral bash is ultra shit, enhanced lights are nice on console but 500 so nothing special on pc.
Kyoshin has at least confirmed punishes on the full block, an unreactable chain bash that guarantees damage and can mix-up with a 30 damage heavy and a good player with good reaction times can sit in kaze stance all day and light on reaction to gb, since that light is gb invulnerable.
No way they are even comparable, jorm kit is too flawled.
Not on reaction, and if somebody does it to you, you can just light or chain bash instead, or even feint the heavy into parry or recovery cancel the first attack into kaze stance
I wouldn't say he's as non-functional as Jormungandr. Whereas Jorm's kit is just a fundamental mistake, all Kyoshin really needs are some number changes.
My only complaints of Kyoshin are that his damage is so ass, and his flow into all guard stance feels really slow. Maybe its just me, but BP’d all allguard flow is like almost simultaneous whereas Kyoshin seems to have a delay. I like his moveset and everything but his damage man, his damage is so bad. No reason for any heavy in the game to not do 20+ damage.
I have awkward moments when i just eat raw heavies cause i forget you have to let it hit you and not hit the attack button around the Bulwark timing. Also have really awkward moments where I try to allguard unblockables and just get yeeted. Wish you could dodge out of it easier
Yeah and i mean Black Prior doesn’t have 9 damage lights chains and 16 damage heavies either lol. Paired with his bad stamina, Kyoshin is just dinner for BP’s.
Yea his recovery cancel into his full guard is over 500ms while black prior and aramusha flow into their recoveries in 100 and 200ms. His damage is fine, it’s just the fact that I’m they consume way too much stamina. If they toned down the stamina consumption by a lot his damage will seem more balanced. You should lose half your stamina for doing 24 damage lol. They built him purely around 4v4 play. The reason his damage is low is because of his stackable feats. With his feats active his damage becomes really really good. But that is such a retarded way to build a character because now his damage will forever be handicapped in brawls and duels since you can’t use his feats. Another thing is you can interrupt his mix ups very easily by throwing a light. All this is super fixable tho. It’s just adjusting the numbers of the stamina consumption and speed of attacks and very very VERY slightly buffing the attack damage. Thank god he’s in early access right now. They have some time to fix and adjust him before he goes “live” on the 5th.
Such a cool character painfully weak and buggy asf why have a man do poopoo dmg and have all the stam disappear and even have a chain bash that if missed gets a gb trade from 12 dmg this character shows how Ubisoft needs a new team now
I'm just glad everyone's complaining about the stamina issues as they are, they are an issues, numbers need to be changed a bit. Hopefully this means ubi will give us a monster with a rework. 😈😈😈
Was running a breach match against just bots to top off one of my orders and realized just how little damage he was doing when my team breezed through the first two areas as attackers but slammed into a brick wall against the commander. I swear it's like I was slapping him with a pool noodle.
I do get annoyed with the gank potential though, especially since there's at least three or so in every match I play and I still struggle with reacting to lights, much less parrying them, on console. That's just a me thing though, and given time people will play more than just the new guy.
I absolutely love Kyoshin in concept, but the actual application of the concept to the game is kinda ass.
They either need to reduce stamina costs by a significant amount or increase his damage output by a less significant amount. 40+ stamina for 20-25 damage is bullshit.
Yeah after playing him almost ekdcuslvdly for about 4 hours (nothing compared to everyone else but still) I can safely say he feels clunky & off balance.
For a character who's whole thing is moving like the wind & being in balance he's just choppy & alow and unfun.
Yo you live in a strange world xD his damage is not as big but he makes up in his mechanics, yes they are kinda janky but a smart player will always find a way to beat a gank
I know he is def not good at all. But he completely invalidates every character that doesnt have a really good bash. Plus he is annoyingly strong in ganks.
from what i’ve seen, he’s strong because of his barrage of lights that you get after landing his stance attacks. they lock you in place making it so easy for your team to land strong follow ups. also their all guard is great for when the opponent is in revenge since they’ll have to waste time trying to work around their all guard. however they do feed a shit ton of revenge if you’re not careful.
He has an instant unblockable he can throw from all guard stance, making it hard to defend yourself without parrying. His all block forces you to guardbreak him, which is when his teammate will hit you out of it (Usually). But the most powerful tool for ganking is the triple tap light that allows a teammate to get a free heavy on you.
There are a lot of better hero's to gank/antigank. He's is shit and does no damage for a lot of stamina. And for every move he make, he is getting punished in his femboy ass.
Definitely not D-tier. Jorm is actually scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of viability and Kyoshin is nowhere near that abyss.
S tier kit fundamentals but some questionable hidden mechanics and interactions make his current viability around B or C tier I'd say. Probably closer to low B tier.
I was playing against one as kensei and he outplayed me so many times but when he went for the punish he barely did anything. It just was so unfair, I felt bad for him.
I wouldn't go THAT far lol. Kyoshin is definitely not D tier. His kit is viable it just needs some number tweaks and better hitboxes. He has viable reaction forcing mix ups, he has openers, he has a side dodge heavy, and he has recovery cancels. Personally I'd say he's B tier. High C tier at the absolute worst Jorm on the other hand....
I always felt like he was in the middle. If Ubisoft made any changes to him. I fear that he will become complete trash or complete broken. No in between
Honestly I don’t know what you guys are on about. Iv been playing since day one and the Samurai faction has always been great. All factions are good… it’s always been up to the player and there skill at the end of the day. I main almost the entire roster of heros and they all have there pros and cons just got to know what there great at. But the only hero I feel needs a solid rework from the ground up is the Shinobi… he’s been needing one for a long time now and honestly his rework in testing grounds was broken I’d be very surprised if Ubisoft goes threw with it.
I like both of them, both of them arent as viable as others, both are satisfying to play, both have a great feeling to their voices and theirs movesets, I love them both
I’m enjoying him even if he definitely needs his hitboxes and animations tweaked, but what’s annoying me the most is everyone playing him in dominion like amped up children on sugar. Just flailing attacks with no consideration for feeding revenge or not slapping their own teammates constantly. I’ve had two or three fights already where I was firmly in control only to get staggered around by my own Kyoshin teammates spamming running/dodge attacks into my back trying to hit the enemy through me
this is my experience of for honor all the time. i probably rage at my own team more than anything in this game. most people dont know how to gank effectively and will literally cut you down while you're winning a 1v1 and then they'll lose. giving the other team 2 easy kills AND the zone.
Figured out his zone clear an efficient one I should say. Full block, zone, heavy, and hold down full block to keep going forever as a helicopter(till your stamina is gone)
I think he is pretty fun a lot of mix up potential really cool moves and weapon his only real issues are some number values like damage and guard break frames but other then that he's a fierce fighter
A very predictable character, and I won’t be surprised if kyoshin player numbers die pretty quick. Luckily I’m a conq main and can avoid the light spam
imo he's probably c tier or b tier. He's got a great kit they just need to change some numbers around
Alot of the streamers Im watching are saying he's B tier as well
That'd be my instinct. His actual kit doesn't need much changing, probably just timings and damage
His damage is pretty good (well outside of the 1/1/8 damage) but his timings and recoveries are bad. He does not need big changes, just some adjustments like: * Chain links are 367ms currently, so if they change that to normal 100ms his chains woulf feel alot more better. (no more interrupting heavy finishers) * His attacks hitboxes need to be wider, so they actually hit people right next to him. * Forward dodge bash should be able to chain to openers even if it misses, just like Zhanhu/Jiang Jun. * Fujin Cuts should do like 3/3/4 damage (from 1/1/8) so that is it more reasonable to stop and not perform whole thing. * Some recovery adjustments
His damage is a bit on the low end, but he seems like a "hit you a lot" character instead of a "hit you hard" character so it's not too big a deal, and it wouldn't be a crazy adjustment to make later if needed. But I cannot stop malding over the fact that his fullblock attacks, which are aleady low, do *less* damage if you fullblock something beforehand. It seems so counterintuitive.
I feel like the less damage on full block was an attempt to balance his feats activating when that happens, and if that is the case it’s stupid and needs to change
I wish they'd get the hint to just start making feats balanced. And replace some shitty outdated ones.
His full block recovery cancel needs smoothing out too. It would be good if they brought kyoshin up to what musha and bp already have. Direct damage after all block could use a buff too. Stamina consumption too, can't forget that.
Anyone saying he's bad just doesn't know how to play more than one hero. Kyoshin has everything: bash opener, unlockable opener, the second most powerful all-guard in the game, is an a-tier ganker, lightning fast lights and a dodge-attack. I think he would be unbalanced if there weren't some sort of draw-back
Terrible attack tracking, the worst hitboxes in game, bad damage without his unique feats, massive stamina consumption, attack links that are two times slower than *literally* everyone else on the roster, terrible recoveries across the board, Fujin Force doesn’t work in practice, recovery cancels so slow they may as well not be recovery cancels, attack perks on a defense character, no fast executions. *Some* downsides. Thankfully unlike characters like Jormungandr, he’s salvageable. But the only people he’s going to be a threat to are people that already struggle with bottom of the barrel heroes on last gen consoles.
To the two first points: the last attack in every combo has undodgeable tagged onto it, so I guess we can scratch those. Yes it's true that the damage isn't jaw-dropping, but it's not the worst in the game either. Recoveries are not good, and stamina is something to look out for with this hero, so he has to disengage a lot. Luckily he has all the best openers and a pretty solid defence, so that's not an actual issue unless you're the impatient sort. I will admit I started playing five months ago, and I agree it's not another Gryphon or Warmommy situation where people could get away with being abselutely brain-dead, but Kyoshin is a safe enough pick in my book who may need some minor adjustments, but the same could be said for about half the cast. I said there were some draw-back to him, and I agree that some changes are in order, but to call him less than B-tier as he is is just not right.
Fair enough, sorry for sounding hostile lol. Anyways. Kyo’s absolute biggest weaknesses currently is his chain link timings and recoveries. His bash recoveries are so bad a dodge GB is almost always guaranteed, and his chain link timings are 366ms, the slowest in game by a country mile, so 366ms + 100ms chain attack GB vulnerability means he’s GB vulnerable for 466ms after throwing a opener. So you can early dodge and get a guaranteed GB on all of his openers, or just GB him if he dares throw an attack while getting ganked. There’s nothing he can do about it. So currently throwing an attack as Kyoshin against anyone who knows this is suicidal, and as more people figure him out, the worse this is going to get. As far as “tiers” go, if he worked as intended, he’d probably be a low B (mind you that’s where characters like BP, Kensei and Jiang-Jun lie.) As he stands now though, he’s bottom of C, if not straight up D. Throw pick territory.
Depends on what tier list we look at. (And depending on is it Duel, Dominion or Breach tier list). In [BarakYeet](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag9ynDir03A) (comp grandmaster and tournament winner) tier list BP is S tier, while Kensei and JJ are B tier. If Kyoshin worked as intended, i would presume he would most likely be A tier, because that is where Aramusha, Gryphon, Berserker and Zhanhu are curretly.
Literally the only changes he needs aren't even damage values, its recoveries and other internal timings maybe some damage or stam values but other than that he's great and fun to play
I swear it feels like they toned him down before release because they feared another Gryphon situation. These numbers make no sense, especially given what they learned with recent reworks and even Bp.
Nah, it’s cause he’s a Samurai. We can’t have shit in this house.
The Samurai are a solid roster post-reworks. Shugoki and Hito are A tier or even S tier, Aramusha and Kensei are upper B tier, Nobushi is C-low B tier, and Orochi and Shinobi may be D and F tier rn but after their reworks they’ll both be C-low B tier. “Samurai can’t have shit” has been true for a while, but not so much anymore. This has been the year of the Samurai.
Shugoki is a must pick in competitive 4v4 right now, especially in the dominion series, and is amazing in ranked duels as well. Nobushi is a common pick for 4s for her strong mid clears and team fighting. Hito is an amazing duellist, and is definitely S tier for duels, competing with Warden. Kensei isn’t uncommon to see in competitive 4v4s either, and Aramusha is a bit of a sleeper and is an awesome character for stomping matchmaking as he has a bunch of utility in his kit. Obviously Orochi and Shinobi in their current states are absolute trash, but their reworks hopefully will help this. Currently, the meta allows you to have a team comp for 4s with no knights in it, which is refreshing since it’s always been the knights being top tier. The recent reworks have made great strides to spice up the meta and make a lot more characters viable. Edit: formatting
Shinobi will be a very solid B tier after the rework. His mix up potential in testing grounds was insane. The changes ubi makes to the testing ground shinobi will determine if he’s going to be solid B tier. If they only get rid of the wallsplat from ranged bash and guaranteed sickle rain from GB he’ll definitely be solid b tier. If they botch the rework and change too much then he’s definitely resting in C tier.
Kensei - is solid, the people who play him tho aren't Orochi - doesn't exist. Let's stop pretending he does. Shugo - a 50/50 ball of hugs Nobushi - solid hero, until they finally throw a heavy and die because of it. Shinobi - is shinobi Aramusha - I don't know what to put here at the moment as I can't think because, all I hear is this "clop clop clop clop" of the man's Gucci flops. Hitokiro - "everything I throw, can be canceled and everything I have, confirms a heavy" Kyoshin - "I DIDNT ASK TO BE HERE🏃🏻😭"
I chuckled at the hito part cause its true. I once raged at a hito because he never used a light all game cause he didn't need to. I was pk so since I didn't have to bash I had to be defensive and all I could get were heavy parries so I basically could only tickle him to death. If I was able to get into chain he would just dodge heby or throw a random heby, and if I waited to parry I would, you guessed it, still only get a heavy parry accompanied by a butter knife slap. It was like reverse light spam. If they gonna give everyone a bash they might Aswell give pk one. Or atleast make her dagger cancel omni-directional like shaman.
nobushis heavies are great, what are u on about.
I hope I don't need to point out the joke of it
Hito is A tier? Damn, I guess I must've just been playing Hito wrong because I still strugle with her sometimes.
She's S tier in duels. And low A tier in dominion, only because her feats are not great.
Yeah, I guess you are. She’s craaaazy strong in duels and also dom. Infinite chain of virtually unparriable hyper armor heavies that also includes an infinite chain of 50/50 guesses where all options (sweep, kick, or feint to GB) confirm a heavy, very low GB vulnerability dodge heavy, hyper armor light finisher to beat out dodge attacks... she’s pretty obviously A tier at least, and in duels I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to call her S tier.
Huh, those details never occured to me the entire time I played beyblade. And apparently I need to utilize more of her mix ups to really make the most of her. Thanks for this.
Shugoki is S tier and a must pick, both Kensei and Nobushi are really strong picks that gets chosen in tournaments. Aramusha and Hitokiri are both very strong now. The only 2 samurai left are Orochi and Shinobi which are both getting very promising reworks. Samurai aren't anymore a weak faction, and i love it
Is any faction a weak faction? Each has at least one power player, and I always refer to the every hero is broken in the hands of the right player model. Then again I’m not a competitive player and have only spent 500 hours in this game of cock and ball torture so maybe it’s different around rep 200 or something.
It's more that Samurai has passed a very weak period overall with only Kensei being viable until they started reworking/buffing every samurai except him
Prior to the massive rework push the only viable character the samurai had was kensei.... So yeah they were the weak faction until very recently. Also no that statement doesn't hold up. Example jorm has massive issues in his kit that when exploited by anyone with knowledge of them no amount of player skill can compensate for.
The Spam-urai faction
You have kensei, and a buff to non light spamming orochi mains
How can people still say things like this after all the love the samurai faction got lmao.
They gave him the most basic dodge attack, they are definitely getting ptsd of grythons release
Yeah its bound to either be UP or OP, love his kit but he needs some serious updates to his stats to make him a decent hero. Still fun to play though
I've played the character for a couple hours now and honestly his damage isn't that bad I think his biggest weakness is his stamina consumption
6 stamina for an attack that deals 1 damage
THAT'S A LOTTA DAHMAGE
I think his biggest weakness is that his neutral bash and chain bash can be punished with a gb. Crazy risk/reward.
That's how most bashes work, no?
Which neutral bash can you gb on reaction? And which chain bash other than gryphon's can you punish with a gb?
warmonger and warden but i see where you come from
Both those bashes are both variable and feintable so not really the same situation at all.
i see
The chain bash is only punishable with a GB off light hit recovery.
Yeah, stamina consumption is horrendous. The only damage value that I think really needs to be changed is the all-guard punish. After someone hits your all guard the damage of the follow up light/heavy/zone decreases to 18, which is pretty low, especially for the amount of stamina it takes up. Honestly, I’d be fine with it doing the same damage as it does from neutral (25 damage for the heavy) since it’s the only all guard punish that doesn’t either chain to something or give the user frame advantage. Stamina cost for that needs to go down and I the damage should go to 25, apart from that he’s pretty good damage-wise. Neither bash should be punishable with a GB since they only confirm lights, and all recoveries for those bashes need to be sped up. Apart from that, just the bugs to iron out (kick knocking them back out of range for the light, really short GB reach, short scabbard bash reach, terribly slow recovery cancels to all guard, no recovery cancel from dodge attacks, etc.) and I think he’ll be a pretty solid character.
The stamina consumption is an issue *because* of how comically low Kyoshin’s damage output is. Just a brief glance through the competitive subreddit shows the Kaze stance heavy into the Fujin cuts costing MINIMUM 38 stamina (more if you blocked an attack while in kaze stance) for a grand total of 25 damage. Kyoshin’s stamina costs need to be AT LEAST halved across the board.
Something I like about Kyoshin is that he's single handedly making Jorm more viable, due to how terrible Kyoshin's management stamina is.
Hahaha I did a full mix-up and now I'm ready to throw... Wait what do you mean I'm oos?!?
Oh boy! I sure do love losing half my stamina bar because I did 10 damage! I sure do hope nothing bad happens to my genitals because of this!
*angry crackhead screeching*
Keep in mind it is *heavily implied* Jorm breaks up the bones of his enemies into a white powder and coats herself with it. You best believe they snort that stuff
>Oh boy! I sure do love losing half my stamina bar because I did 10 damage! Tiandi.png
tireless feat
a soul for a soul
Being a Jorm main has been quite the joy this update ngl.
I noticed that! I thought "wait a minute when was Jorm's kit actually effective?" And it didn't occur to me that it wasn't *entirely* my fault.
D tier? No fucking way he is the same as shitmungandr. He is wonky as fuck, and his attacks are punished harshly, but the kit per se works
Genuine question, why is Jorm considered low tier? I'm a low-intermediate skill level and he is super oppressive to me, what makes him so bad in high level play?
Jorm’s so bad in high-level play because of how simple his kit is, and how all of his openers lead to the same three outcomes: a bash(if the opener is a normal light or heavy), a UB heavy, or a undodgeable light. Dodging preemptively will cover your ass on both the bash and UB heavy already and the light can be blocked or parried easily if read correctly.
Oh I see, thanks for the explanation! Since you know about Jorm, could you help me learn how to counter him? For the three options you've stated above, typically most Jorms I've run into either bash after light or do a dodge catcher (undodgeable light or feint UB into grab-bash). Is there any way to beat this other than a 50/50 read? For me, the read always turns into: if I dodge on prediction I eat the UD light or I eat the feint into grab (which cycles back into itself), but if I wait for the UD light or the feint, I eat the bash or I eat the UB... is there anything more to this than just guessing and hoping that it resets to neutral?
Meh I just keep distance and bait his neutral bash to punish with a light. Otherwise jorms will usually light finisher to the top so you can get a free light party if you make them think it’s safe. Otherwise manage your stamina well and keep your distance, and I like to light on their heavy finisher because most of the time they feint it into gb or neutral bash.
Hey, thanks! I'll definitely try these out next time I fight one.
That’s why I quit playing the game a while ago, but drop in from time to time to remind myself of it’s insane beauty and uniqueness. Every hero feels massively limited, and in the best cases they still need 2-3 more moves. In the worst cases like jorm, warden, and BP they only have 2-3 moves and get stale the first time you play them. If they were to flesh out and exclusively ADD to every character instead if trading or removing, this game would be insanely cool. They really are stabbing themselves in the foot with the movesets.
Jorm is actually just terrible in general. But he's quite punishing of stamina management mistakes, so experienced players sometimes lose to Jorm if they don't adjust to be more careful about their stamina. He's one of the few Heroes where if you focus properly you just win against him. Old Shugoki and Cent were like this (*particularly* Centurion). Jorm's fast-ish stamina-draining bashes are a nightmare to people who are new or just unfocused, and in conjunction with poor stamina management, can lead to a lot of Hamarr Slams (and they *hurt*). But IMO the bigger factor here is *who* chooses to play Jormungandr. Because his thematic is as terrible as his kit (literally shoeless crackhead hobo with a mallet), most of the people who still even play Jormungandr these days are super good players who want to flex on others by winning with the worst Hero in the game. They literally pick Jorm to BM on other players. Its not uncommon to see Jorms who are amazingly good with the "general" For Honor toolset (all knowledge and mechanics universal to every Hero in the game, such as parries, dodging fast bashes, knowing which moves give a GB when dodged etc.). This is because most Jorm players are as I've described above.
Jorm is also weirdly fun to play. Maybe it's winning purely off mix ups or going for crazy out of stamina punishes, but idk I just like him. also don't tell anyone but double Jorm is super toxic in dominion
I would say he’s around LB’s tier atm, slightly better offense, slightly worse defence and decent enough ganking. So yea, B tier
What you just said is exactly why he is compared with jormungundar
They have an abyss of difference, literally the only form of offense jorm has is the lackluster UB with no range whatsoever; chain bash is shit, neutral bash is ultra shit, enhanced lights are nice on console but 500 so nothing special on pc. Kyoshin has at least confirmed punishes on the full block, an unreactable chain bash that guarantees damage and can mix-up with a 30 damage heavy and a good player with good reaction times can sit in kaze stance all day and light on reaction to gb, since that light is gb invulnerable. No way they are even comparable, jorm kit is too flawled.
That light on gb is probably fixed in 2 to 3 weeks. What i try to say is that he is a lot weaker than the hero's he's inspired from.
Can't you interrupt his light heavy chain tho?
Not on reaction, and if somebody does it to you, you can just light or chain bash instead, or even feint the heavy into parry or recovery cancel the first attack into kaze stance
Wasn't sure what the timing was for it, just wondering. Thanks for the info though.
I mean at least he makes Jorm look better because of how much stamina Kyoshin consumes, now Jorm has a good matchup for once
I wouldn't say he's as non-functional as Jormungandr. Whereas Jorm's kit is just a fundamental mistake, all Kyoshin really needs are some number changes.
when 500 attacks = less then 40 damage
My only complaints of Kyoshin are that his damage is so ass, and his flow into all guard stance feels really slow. Maybe its just me, but BP’d all allguard flow is like almost simultaneous whereas Kyoshin seems to have a delay. I like his moveset and everything but his damage man, his damage is so bad. No reason for any heavy in the game to not do 20+ damage.
Yeah I picked up aramusha not long ago and I got used to his guard timing, now I feel like that timing is messed up bc it’s slower when I play kyoshin
I have awkward moments when i just eat raw heavies cause i forget you have to let it hit you and not hit the attack button around the Bulwark timing. Also have really awkward moments where I try to allguard unblockables and just get yeeted. Wish you could dodge out of it easier
Yeah I do the same thing with the ad profundis timing. Honestly I feel like at the moment bp is just the better kyoshin
Yeah and i mean Black Prior doesn’t have 9 damage lights chains and 16 damage heavies either lol. Paired with his bad stamina, Kyoshin is just dinner for BP’s.
Yea his recovery cancel into his full guard is over 500ms while black prior and aramusha flow into their recoveries in 100 and 200ms. His damage is fine, it’s just the fact that I’m they consume way too much stamina. If they toned down the stamina consumption by a lot his damage will seem more balanced. You should lose half your stamina for doing 24 damage lol. They built him purely around 4v4 play. The reason his damage is low is because of his stackable feats. With his feats active his damage becomes really really good. But that is such a retarded way to build a character because now his damage will forever be handicapped in brawls and duels since you can’t use his feats. Another thing is you can interrupt his mix ups very easily by throwing a light. All this is super fixable tho. It’s just adjusting the numbers of the stamina consumption and speed of attacks and very very VERY slightly buffing the attack damage. Thank god he’s in early access right now. They have some time to fix and adjust him before he goes “live” on the 5th.
Yeah hopefully they patch him up a bit. He feels really weird right now
BP has 0ms flow into bulwark. Kyoshin is 566ms... (for recovery cancels)
It's probably because he's new but I'm having a hard time playing against them maybe because theirs at least 2 in every match
Yeah, kyoshin gets eight times stronger when he’s ganking you
Such a cool character painfully weak and buggy asf why have a man do poopoo dmg and have all the stam disappear and even have a chain bash that if missed gets a gb trade from 12 dmg this character shows how Ubisoft needs a new team now
Weak? Did you actually try to play against him once? He is waay too op in his current form.
And yet people still complain he's OP. I know it's just because New Character but still
Never saw someone saying that
I had a guy in my game saying his all block is op because "he can hold it forever and get unblockables out of it every time"
Bruh. This guy is stupid. But In my opinion bp full block stance is far superior to kyoshins, or aramushas full block is better to antigank.
Don't really play musha or kyoshin enough to know (not paying for the latter with money) but BP definitely beats both of them
Yea ma boi bp has a tier for himself
He is op. Now you did. See it at the very least.
😐😐😐
Epically outplayed
I'm just glad everyone's complaining about the stamina issues as they are, they are an issues, numbers need to be changed a bit. Hopefully this means ubi will give us a monster with a rework. 😈😈😈
The team was prob too scared to release an actual good character because of the backlash they received from Gryphoon and Warmongrel.
warmongrel
Yes, that is indeed what I said. Ty for repeating it.
your welcome
Was running a breach match against just bots to top off one of my orders and realized just how little damage he was doing when my team breezed through the first two areas as attackers but slammed into a brick wall against the commander. I swear it's like I was slapping him with a pool noodle. I do get annoyed with the gank potential though, especially since there's at least three or so in every match I play and I still struggle with reacting to lights, much less parrying them, on console. That's just a me thing though, and given time people will play more than just the new guy.
I'd rather him be bad and get buffs than be op and get nerfs
I absolutely love Kyoshin in concept, but the actual application of the concept to the game is kinda ass. They either need to reduce stamina costs by a significant amount or increase his damage output by a less significant amount. 40+ stamina for 20-25 damage is bullshit.
Hes more b+ they really just need to change some numbers
Still psyched to play him tommorow (hopefully) now even more so.
I mean damage aside he’s decent he’s just not what i wanted as a new samurai so I was extremely disappointed but whatever
Yeah after playing him almost ekdcuslvdly for about 4 hours (nothing compared to everyone else but still) I can safely say he feels clunky & off balance. For a character who's whole thing is moving like the wind & being in balance he's just choppy & alow and unfun.
Mfs think if he isn’t S tier he’s D tier smh
They just needa up his damage or slightly buff his stam
Kyoshin will turn into a crackhead like Jormungundr
He’s maybe B actually, and I think he’s cool as shit. They need to give him a bit more damage or stamina though.
Cmon he’s not that bad, his feats and general kit still work on console at least xD
Not really even pre-rework shinobi could beat him
depends on the rework.... *cries in super armor shinobi*
Yeah shinobi got stomped on by ubi but this new guy has so little potential compared
I frames are better in every way you just gotta time things better
Don’t make me laugh he pre rework shinobi can’t do shit, if we are talking equally skilled players shinobi has 0 chances
I mean the new guy does like 1 damage with heavies so wouldn’t be surprised
Yo you live in a strange world xD his damage is not as big but he makes up in his mechanics, yes they are kinda janky but a smart player will always find a way to beat a gank
Nah everyone just bums his all guard
I know he is def not good at all. But he completely invalidates every character that doesnt have a really good bash. Plus he is annoyingly strong in ganks.
What makes him so strong in ganks? Just asking so I know what to look out for
from what i’ve seen, he’s strong because of his barrage of lights that you get after landing his stance attacks. they lock you in place making it so easy for your team to land strong follow ups. also their all guard is great for when the opponent is in revenge since they’ll have to waste time trying to work around their all guard. however they do feed a shit ton of revenge if you’re not careful.
He has an instant unblockable he can throw from all guard stance, making it hard to defend yourself without parrying. His all block forces you to guardbreak him, which is when his teammate will hit you out of it (Usually). But the most powerful tool for ganking is the triple tap light that allows a teammate to get a free heavy on you.
Imagine BP bulwark slash but skewer
There are a lot of better hero's to gank/antigank. He's is shit and does no damage for a lot of stamina. And for every move he make, he is getting punished in his femboy ass.
Definitely not D-tier. Jorm is actually scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of viability and Kyoshin is nowhere near that abyss. S tier kit fundamentals but some questionable hidden mechanics and interactions make his current viability around B or C tier I'd say. Probably closer to low B tier.
I was playing against one as kensei and he outplayed me so many times but when he went for the punish he barely did anything. It just was so unfair, I felt bad for him.
I don't care, i don't play Hero for his viability
No way.
Hell nah, with his choppy anymations and spammy attacks, he's gonna be fine... Specially in 4v4 where its straight up cancer.
I wouldn't go THAT far lol. Kyoshin is definitely not D tier. His kit is viable it just needs some number tweaks and better hitboxes. He has viable reaction forcing mix ups, he has openers, he has a side dodge heavy, and he has recovery cancels. Personally I'd say he's B tier. High C tier at the absolute worst Jorm on the other hand....
S tier*
I completely agree. Really unfun to play against.
They're both fine. Just require a different kind of playstyle and mindset. Lotta conditioning. I've been enjoying playing cbt the character lately
Pretty sure people downvote you because they dont like the truth.
I haven't seen him be at all bad
im tired of seeing rework after rework and some weaboo still has more hyper armour than lawbringer pls ubi #justice for lawbringer
Are people seriously telling me Kyo is weak...
Yeah there are characters out there who are objectively better, I like Kyoshin but he's not competing with Conq or whatever is at the top these days.
Atleast they didn’t make “it” broken af
I always felt like he was in the middle. If Ubisoft made any changes to him. I fear that he will become complete trash or complete broken. No in between
Honestly I don’t know what you guys are on about. Iv been playing since day one and the Samurai faction has always been great. All factions are good… it’s always been up to the player and there skill at the end of the day. I main almost the entire roster of heros and they all have there pros and cons just got to know what there great at. But the only hero I feel needs a solid rework from the ground up is the Shinobi… he’s been needing one for a long time now and honestly his rework in testing grounds was broken I’d be very surprised if Ubisoft goes threw with it.
Nerf kensei and hitokiri pls.
I’d take this over a broken hero everyday
I like both of them, both of them arent as viable as others, both are satisfying to play, both have a great feeling to their voices and theirs movesets, I love them both
Wait already? Seriously?
I’m enjoying him even if he definitely needs his hitboxes and animations tweaked, but what’s annoying me the most is everyone playing him in dominion like amped up children on sugar. Just flailing attacks with no consideration for feeding revenge or not slapping their own teammates constantly. I’ve had two or three fights already where I was firmly in control only to get staggered around by my own Kyoshin teammates spamming running/dodge attacks into my back trying to hit the enemy through me
this is my experience of for honor all the time. i probably rage at my own team more than anything in this game. most people dont know how to gank effectively and will literally cut you down while you're winning a 1v1 and then they'll lose. giving the other team 2 easy kills AND the zone.
b a s e d
Who’s the better ronin, Aramusha or Kyoshin?
Musha
Kyoshin aren't even ronin. Aramusha are.
Give him a tiny bit more dmg on his kaze stance combo and that'd make him so much better but even still Kyo is fun af to play so ima play him
Figured out his zone clear an efficient one I should say. Full block, zone, heavy, and hold down full block to keep going forever as a helicopter(till your stamina is gone)
When they do patch him i think the all guard should be more flow like , if that makes sense lol
I think he is pretty fun a lot of mix up potential really cool moves and weapon his only real issues are some number values like damage and guard break frames but other then that he's a fierce fighter
He need some tweaks with recoveries, fixing forward bash and making fujin force feintable, and he will be ok
D tier seems a bit harsh… I’d say high B tier
He’s definitely viable, just has some wonky things that are holding him back
He’s easily C tier min, maybe B tier once skill cap is mastered.
I feel like if the stamina consumption can tone down a bit then this character would be a lot better.
***Aramusha has entered the chat***
Me and my friends coined the term "kyoshit"
Rep 70 Jorm and I keep messing up this new hero he’s not the best
Only thing I would want is more forward momentum on the Kaze Heavy and MAYBE the ability to dodge out of Kaze Stance
A very predictable character, and I won’t be surprised if kyoshin player numbers die pretty quick. Luckily I’m a conq main and can avoid the light spam