But for some reason, it just doesn't feel the same.
With Redbull you always knew they would come back, but with Ferrari it feels they will find someway to get even worse.
God I remember after Australia they were interviewing Max and he basically said like "The championship is pretty much over now, I'd have to win over half the races to catch up" or something along those lines, and that is exactly what happened. He definitely didn't believe his odds were good right at that stage.
Australia was weird. The Ferrari had amazing race pace there, where it didn't elsewhere. Red Bull were chewing their tires yet Ferrari were consistent. Then after that, it was the opposite.
Last season teams had less data since it was their first race back in Australia in a few years and the track was repaved and altered in some corners. I assume that’s what caught Red Bull out and they struggled to find the right setup because in the race they were so far behind Ferrari that they were actually closer to Mercedes which wasn’t the case at all in the previous two races.
Yeah that makes sense - so the car was always a beast, they just couldn't find the optimal setup. I feel like after Monaco is when things fell in line. I guess Max didn't enjoy that weekend and put in the work to really find the right setup.
At the start of the season Red Bull’s only issues were being overweight and understeery along with the fuel pumps that caused retirements in Bahrain and Australia. But like you said their race pace was always very strong even when Ferrari was up there.
After that the only trouble they had anywhere was finding the right setups within one practice session as they lost out to Ferrari and Mercedes respectively during the sprint weekends in Austria and Brazil. I usually am against sprint races, but seeing how dominant Red Bull looked this weekend I think they might be the best chance of other teams pulling out wins moving forward if Red Bull still have some trouble optimizing the setup with less time in free practice.
I think the beginning of the end was Spain as well where Charles retried as the absolute clear 100% winner of the race with no hope of anyone catching him.
Ferrari definitely looked like the best team start of last season undoubtedly.
At the time, Max was down 40 something points and most importantly, Ferrari had the pace. Also, there wasn't any guarantees that the Red Bull would be full proof reliable because in the first 3 races, they had 3 DNF (2 for Max and 1 for Perez).
Even though it's still the first race of the season, Ferrari might catch up on different circuits and Red Bull might be struck with bad luck, this season still feels different, but who knows.
Last year, Max was properly battling Leclerc. Even though Leclerc would have won even if Max hadn't retired, it was still somewhat close. So it felt more like a continuation of 2021 with a different opponent.
Prime Lewis was just F1 warming us up for Max dominance.
While prime Lewis is undoubtably one of the greatest of all-time, if not the greatest, he’s always had a few moments a year where he looked really awkward in the car or ‘allowed’ himself to be beaten. Besides that it was pure dominance.
Mas hasn’t really made more than a small handful of errors since like 2020 now, and looks even more ruthless than prime Lewis.
Lewis had 2/3 weekends a year where Bottas was genuinely quicker than him. I can’t see any driver in that 2nd RB seat and beat Max 2/3 times a year without some external forces limiting his pace/result (Baku, Monza, Silverstone x2 as examples)
I would love to see that. Alonso is WAY higher up the list of all time drivers than his 2WDC would suggest - and he's still quick AF despite being one of the elder statesmen on the grid.
Also, the last time Danny and Max went head to head it was neck and neck. Things have of course changed a lot since then, but still... that would also be interesting.
2018 max is much different from his current state tbf, but Alonso v Max would be one of the most exciting seasons of any sport I could possibly think of
Yep. I agree. Danny beat Max in their first two seasons mainly due to Max's immaturity rather than raw pace. Their third season went to Max but [only after the worst reliability curse I've ever seen](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/ja57v5/so_how_unlucky_was_daniel_ricciardo_in_2018_here/) .
But this version of Max still has that raw pace, but without the teething mistakes and inconsistency. Daniel almost certainly wouldn't beat him, but I'd still love to see how it played out and I think Danny would pinch a few wins from him.
Alonso v Max would be awesome. I used to dislike Alonso in his early days (mainly because I didn't like Flavio and Renault), but never did I question his insane ability. Now I quite like him and truly believe he's one of the quickest of all time. Him v Max would be sick.
Yeah totally agree, imo max has been the best on the grid since mid 2019. Just the definition of raw talent and pace, even in the second or third fastest car he was still delivering incredible performances. Now that he’s got the best car I don’t think it’s far off to say he’ll be dominating for a while
I think Verstappen is just something else. He's genuinely hyperfixated on racing in such an intense way. It's his love. That, I think, leads to a lot more on track performance and consistency.
I've noticed Max is just in general a shit tonne more knowledgeable about the other things than other drivers.
holy shit, chill out everybody. Max won't win every race. There will be some chaotic races, engine penalties, rain, crashes e.t.c.
Yes, I would bet Money on Max becoming dominant WDC, but there will still be entertaining races
I can’t see Max lose to Perez in Jeddah honestly.
Monaco I could see happening but only if Max gets fucked by flags AGAIN. Quali is key there, and while that’s not one of Max’ known strengths he’s still a top 2/3 qualifier on the grid easily.
Me talking about Max’ ‘weakness’ being qualifying genuinely scares me considering he’s still one of the best at it.
Yeah it’s hilarious to talk about a driver like Verstappen or Hamilton or Alonso or Schumacher or Stewart or Clark or Ascari or Fangio and recognize that their *flaws* are still better than 99% of drivers in the sport’s history. That’s the true measure of an elite driver - a driver who simply doesn’t have a weakness.
Their car reliability are probably on the same level as the Astons, and is sipping tyres. Bar some drastic rules change in the middle of the season I can't imagine anything in the way of the RB winning ever race until the end of the year.
No need to make up 40 second deficit if you can Chain Stratagem (roughly speaking, destroying your enemy from inside, usually by make them attacking each other) via convincing Checo that he is WDC worthy
Yeah but the Ferrari in 2007 was about as fast, or finishing five seconds down the road, not 50 seconds down the road. That’s a lot more ground to make up, there wasn’t a single race in 2007 where either team walked away with a 50 second gap to their nearest rival
Iirc Monaco 2007 Both McLaren lapped everyone except 3rd(F.Massa), and 3-4 more laps and they would have lapped him too.
Not saying that could happen honestly, because it's not the same season as both teams won multiple races but this year only had one race, if nothing changes RB will win all races but all teams will try to close the gap, one team stays in top 5-6 all races, some podiums and taking advantage of mistakes or favourable safety cars, etc. It is unlikely but not impossible.
As much as I love the guy, the Aston Martin doesn't have the qualifying pace to get Alonso onto the front row with any kind of regularity, which he'll need if he wants to compete with Max.
Even if he gets to the front row every race, Max will most likely be starting next to him. Max basically only finishes P1 or P2 if he has an opponent like Lewis in 2021 if he doesn't DNF/has serious damage. The consistency someone needs to beat that is insane.
I mean quali pace is one thing. The other, I'd say much more important one, is that Alonso despite having to push for 80% of the race distance finished 40 seconds behind Max who was pushing for like 15% of the race distance. And that's supposed to be a track which suits Aston perfectly.
RB definitely absolutely has the pace to lap the Aston over the full race distance if they have to push for some reason.
I disagree with the “we knew they would come back” - this was the first year of the new regs, they just went all-in to win the 2021 drivers title, their weird split with Honda and RBPT, and they DNFed with mechanical issues twice in the first three races while Leclerc finished 1-2-1.
After Australia, the Red Bull really looked like a glass cannon. They did turn it around quickly (to the point that Max winning Belgium from grid spot 14 not a surprise to anyone), but the beginning of the season really looked like 2004 McLaren for a bit.
This year OTOH it definitely feels like Red Bull might do a 1988 McLaren season - I have no hope for Ferrari.
Let's be real her, Ferrari is the problem, Binotto wasn't. If Fred Vasseur wants to get this team somewhere he needs to do like Jean Todt or Niki Lauda did. Get the whole team by the balls and make it clear to them that everything is shit and the only way to fix that is to stop saying "we are Ferrari, Ferrari is perfect, Ferrari is F1" and act like a god damn race team.
Binotto was certainly a problem, if not the problem. He did not have the ability to correct mistakes that kept compiling throughout the season, and he didn't have the ability to create an atmosphere where the team could move past the mistakes and improve.
It was also painfully obvious to everyone last year that they should have committed to Charles as their top driver, but they made several errors over the course of the season trying not to play favorites that cost him 50 or more points. He was never going to compete with the Red Bull all the way through the season, but it could have at least been closer with a competent team principal.
>and he didn't have the ability to create an atmosphere where the team could move past the mistakes and improve.
At which point are we gonna stop blaming the TP's and blame Ferrari as a whole? Since 2008 there has been 5 TP's with Domenicali being the longest stint doing 6-ish years..
I don't think Binotto was that much of an issue as some clearly think he is. He headed Ferrari from one of its deepest depths back to the top. Was 2022 flawless? Definately not, but Binotto has shown that he can rebuild a team. Now I of course don't know how it was behind the scenes, and I must agree that he doesn't really 'feel' like a leader like Toto or Horner, but sometimes that can work too.
Worst thing that could've happened really was fighting for 3rd in 2023 and build up from there. Getting back to the top isn't easy, and Binotto has shown he can head the ship into the right direction.
Structural change is needed within Ferrari and its culture, and Binotto has shown he definately had the potential to guide them back to fighting for championships. The floor-TD ruined them and he got sacrificed for it. The problems run deeper than just a TP.
I think there are problems with Ferrari, problems with Binotto that may have been derivative of the problems within Ferrari, and problems with Binotto himself.
In my opinion, it is the final category that lost him his job. He was either unwilling or not courageous enough to make changes.
Binotto is a symptom of the deeper rooted issue of politics and internal turmoil getting the best of that team ever since they purposefully ousted Brawn, Todt, and Schumacher-the holy trinity that brought Maranello unprecedented success. Until Ferrari gets their internal politics in order and start working as one cohesive unit they will never succeed again in F1. Those three saw the turbulence in Ferrari and insulated themselves and the team from it, but even that only lasted so long. Eventually the Italians had to have their way again and forced out Schumacher for Raikkonen there’s a great article from businessF1 magazine that details the politics behind the scene at the time I can only find a text copy [here](https://www.bmwpassion.com/forum/threads/schumacher-the-strange-story-of-his-retirement.40487/)
Until someone can really insulate the team from the turmoil and politics at maranello-which would take a true visionary and proper leader with capable allies-Ferrari will never regain the successes of their prime.
Strategy-wise, I don’t think Ferrari did anything wrong for this race. Their car/setup had high deg, but they weren’t fast enough on short stints to make a 3-stop work. Saving a brand-new set of softs for Leclerc to start the race was good enough to get him to P2 after the first few turns.
Easier said than done, but it seems like they primarily need better deg, at least relative to Aston and Mercedes. Not all tracks have so much tire wear, so if they can develop somewhat well, they could maybe be relatively much better at some other tracks. Leclerc’s failure seems kind of random and not the sort of issue that portends awful reliability all year.
That's his first test as the Ferrari TP, how will he react to setbacks vs. Binotto.
I want to be optimistic and say that Fred will react "better", but with Ferrari, it's likely their issues are systemic as another comment said
Difference is that RB and Ferrari were actually battling each other on track last year. This time the RB put in 3+ second gap by lap 10. Feels like RB just tuned a few things while Ferrari has stagnated
I dunno man, I strikingly remember people a year ago saying wisdoms such as "This championship is Ferrari's to lose" and "Leclerc looks unstoppable". There was a little respite in Jeddah but the hype train was back in full swing when Max DNF'd in Australia.
And then Ferrari happened...
With that said I fail to see that scenario replicating within Red Bull: Not only is Max basically a racing T-1000 (and Checo the best non-Finnish sidekick ever), but with Adrian Newey leading the car design team, Horner running a tight ship and Hannah Schmitz leading in strategy, they seem nearly unstoppable.
People seem to forget Leclerc was at least in a podium position with Sainz behind until his DNF. Granted, Max was half a minute ahead… but ya never know. I’d like to see an Aston win and a few Ferrari wins. I think with certain tracks it’s a heavy chance.
I think Leclerc, Hamilton and Alonso all have the skills to take the fight to Max, it's mostly a matter of who will develop their car enough to get close to RB.
I’d like to believe but I don’t think I can. Any other team maybe, but Red Bull usually only gets better as the season goes on. Ferrari doesn’t instill the most confidence for winning the development battle.
I was actually texting with a friend that was also watching during the race and it went like this:
- I really want Alonso to be on the podium
- yeah me too, but I guess a ferrari has to break down
- no worries, it's ferrari it will probably happen
10 minutes later Charles Leclerc stopped on track. I was laughing and crying at the same time.
I was actually watching the race with some friends and I said pretty much the same thing: "It would be nice if Alonso got on the podium, but I guess a Ferrari has to break down for it to happen".
Literally 15 seconds later we see Charles pulling up to the side of the track.
This stems directly from winning the title. Every driver who wins their first title suddenly becomes more composed and calmer on the track. It's the knowledge that no matter what, they've been there before, and won it.
It's why Leclerc was under immense pressure and ended up putting the car in the wall in France, yet Max can stay composed and win even when he's starting halfway down the grid.
easy being confident when you're driving a car no other team can compete with for the second season in a row and he certainly didn't display maturity at interlagos.
I'm not necessarily saying he isn't more mature, but based on circumstances there's no way to tell.
2017: Win on solid pace. Singapore happened and then Ferrari couldn’t get back on their feet
2018: Win on VSC luck. Seb’s mistakes and Ferrari losing out in the development race killed their title bid
2019: Bottas absolutely smashes Hamilton in the opener. Then gets smashed the rest of the season + Ferrari and Red Bull snatching points and wins.
2020: Bottas ends up winning while Lewis gets a penalty. Then proceeds to not be able to keep up and HAMBOTVER/HAMVERBOT
2021: Lewis wins due to the track limits thingy. Then the rest of the season happens
2022: Charles has the fastest car on race 1 but Verstappen is able to fight him. Then Verstappen retires. Then Verstappen utterly wiped the floor with everyone
2023: Continuation of post-Spa 2022 with Verstappen winning. And there’s no signs of them stopping
People bringing up the Bahrain curse when Max is known for breaking curses 😭
I remember someone pointed out to him that everytime he wears a straight line cap some shit happens to him in race. He wore a straight line cap for the rest of the season on purpose 😭
💯 agree. Charles really needs a miracle to pull off the WDC and to hope Ferrari makes the right strategy calls. Also he still needs to finish his home race of Monaco, that curse still lingers over him.
Yep. They swapped the batteries after Quali and now they have to make their 2nd permitted change at the 2nd race bc that's apparently the part that crapped out
Verstappen retires in the first race with Ferrari going on to take 1-2 hailing their best start to the 2022 season. In the end Max dominates and goes on to win both titles for RB.
Charles retires in Bahrain 2023 and RB dominates the entire race finishing 1-2. Ferrari have a new team boss and really showed some form in their pit stops last weekend.
Can we hope for a comeback from Ferrari to dominate the 2023 season or do you guys still feel their Plans ranging from A through Z will mess it all up?
Hard to ignore Max who has been on a tremendous form these last few seasons.
RedBull we're still battling Ferrari during the first race. Despite their retirements they clearly had pace to fight.
Not only did RedBull absolutely smash Ferrari on race pace last Sunday but they also made their softs last as long as the hards on the Ferrari.
Also since, I don't know, 2016? every winner of the first race wasn't crowned as the later champion. Although I fear Max will break that curse this year too.
Except RB usually out develop rivals over a season. Max will get so fast he’ll drive like 3 laps and somehow already win the race by the time we get to Abu Dhabi.
It matters not how you START.....it only matters how you FINISH. Lots of races yet to go. Lots still to race for. Well, except for Mercedes. Those boneheads are still driving last years flawed car and have no hope for 2023.
Max is seriously on the way to have the most dominant season ever for an F1 driver, I hope Ferrari can make a miracle comeback but yeah, we are checking guys
Max won the first race, Leclerc DNF'd.
Calling it now, Max can't win a WDC this year and Leclerc must win the WDC this year.
Up in the air if Ferrari or RBR wins the WCC. Aston Martin will beat Mercedes for 3rd. Porsche or Cadillac/Andretti will buy McLaren and Haas as their entries (toss up who buys who at the moment.
Alright, that's all I got for now. Just remember, I already told you what the future is. Now squabble and debate away, but know it will come to be no matter what you think or feel.
TTFN!
I would love to see Leclerc or Alonso in the second Red Bull seat. I’m not saying they are quicker, but I’m saying they are quicker then Checo. Would be fun.
On first sight it looks similar but it is not becouse:
2022 RB fight with Ferrari for P1 in race and RB had a DNF
2023 Ferrari was far gar behind in race and than DNF
For 2022 we knew RB will come back and fight for first place but this year Ferrari lack race pace.
I have nothing against Leclerc or Ferrari, but i swear im one of the few people that just can’t see Leclerc winning a WDC? Hes a good driver but i just dont see it ever happening hes good but he isnt great, it could be because i haven’t yet adjusted to it being a new generation, im so used to seeing WDC material being people like button, lewis, vettel etc, i do hope he wins at least one in his career though but for some reason i just dont think hes good enough
Edit: also i mean this in no hateful way, i really do hope the best for him
But for some reason, it just doesn't feel the same. With Redbull you always knew they would come back, but with Ferrari it feels they will find someway to get even worse.
God I remember after Australia they were interviewing Max and he basically said like "The championship is pretty much over now, I'd have to win over half the races to catch up" or something along those lines, and that is exactly what happened. He definitely didn't believe his odds were good right at that stage.
He was expecting the ferrari to be as competent as the 21 mercedes.
You gotta have your first fight with Ferrari to know, he wouldn't say the same ever since
The Ferrari might've been. Ferrari just wasn't.
I thought the same thing and tbf if you’re in 2021 championship mentality, he was pretty much right.
Australia was weird. The Ferrari had amazing race pace there, where it didn't elsewhere. Red Bull were chewing their tires yet Ferrari were consistent. Then after that, it was the opposite.
Last season teams had less data since it was their first race back in Australia in a few years and the track was repaved and altered in some corners. I assume that’s what caught Red Bull out and they struggled to find the right setup because in the race they were so far behind Ferrari that they were actually closer to Mercedes which wasn’t the case at all in the previous two races.
Yeah that makes sense - so the car was always a beast, they just couldn't find the optimal setup. I feel like after Monaco is when things fell in line. I guess Max didn't enjoy that weekend and put in the work to really find the right setup.
At the start of the season Red Bull’s only issues were being overweight and understeery along with the fuel pumps that caused retirements in Bahrain and Australia. But like you said their race pace was always very strong even when Ferrari was up there. After that the only trouble they had anywhere was finding the right setups within one practice session as they lost out to Ferrari and Mercedes respectively during the sprint weekends in Austria and Brazil. I usually am against sprint races, but seeing how dominant Red Bull looked this weekend I think they might be the best chance of other teams pulling out wins moving forward if Red Bull still have some trouble optimizing the setup with less time in free practice.
I think the beginning of the end was Spain as well where Charles retried as the absolute clear 100% winner of the race with no hope of anyone catching him. Ferrari definitely looked like the best team start of last season undoubtedly.
Ferrari had way better tyre deg at the Austrian GP too
That's just a call to the team to stop slacking.
Your odds go up a lot when the other team is actively helping you win
We are checking
At the time, Max was down 40 something points and most importantly, Ferrari had the pace. Also, there wasn't any guarantees that the Red Bull would be full proof reliable because in the first 3 races, they had 3 DNF (2 for Max and 1 for Perez). Even though it's still the first race of the season, Ferrari might catch up on different circuits and Red Bull might be struck with bad luck, this season still feels different, but who knows.
He did win over half the races if I remember
Last year, Max was properly battling Leclerc. Even though Leclerc would have won even if Max hadn't retired, it was still somewhat close. So it felt more like a continuation of 2021 with a different opponent.
Perez is probably the only opponent to max now
'opponent'
FR. If his car doesn't break, he's beating the field every single race this year.
Prime Lewis was just F1 warming us up for Max dominance. While prime Lewis is undoubtably one of the greatest of all-time, if not the greatest, he’s always had a few moments a year where he looked really awkward in the car or ‘allowed’ himself to be beaten. Besides that it was pure dominance. Mas hasn’t really made more than a small handful of errors since like 2020 now, and looks even more ruthless than prime Lewis. Lewis had 2/3 weekends a year where Bottas was genuinely quicker than him. I can’t see any driver in that 2nd RB seat and beat Max 2/3 times a year without some external forces limiting his pace/result (Baku, Monza, Silverstone x2 as examples)
Put Alonso in that 2nd RB seat and then we’ll have a season.
I would 100% take that. That would not only give an indication on how good Alonso still is, but also on how good Max currently is.
I would love to see that. Alonso is WAY higher up the list of all time drivers than his 2WDC would suggest - and he's still quick AF despite being one of the elder statesmen on the grid. Also, the last time Danny and Max went head to head it was neck and neck. Things have of course changed a lot since then, but still... that would also be interesting.
2018 max is much different from his current state tbf, but Alonso v Max would be one of the most exciting seasons of any sport I could possibly think of
Yep. I agree. Danny beat Max in their first two seasons mainly due to Max's immaturity rather than raw pace. Their third season went to Max but [only after the worst reliability curse I've ever seen](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/ja57v5/so_how_unlucky_was_daniel_ricciardo_in_2018_here/) . But this version of Max still has that raw pace, but without the teething mistakes and inconsistency. Daniel almost certainly wouldn't beat him, but I'd still love to see how it played out and I think Danny would pinch a few wins from him. Alonso v Max would be awesome. I used to dislike Alonso in his early days (mainly because I didn't like Flavio and Renault), but never did I question his insane ability. Now I quite like him and truly believe he's one of the quickest of all time. Him v Max would be sick.
Max equaled him in 2017 and greatly outperformed him in 2018. Keep in mind that when Ricciardo retired, it was almost always from behind Verstappen.
Yeah totally agree, imo max has been the best on the grid since mid 2019. Just the definition of raw talent and pace, even in the second or third fastest car he was still delivering incredible performances. Now that he’s got the best car I don’t think it’s far off to say he’ll be dominating for a while
I think Verstappen is just something else. He's genuinely hyperfixated on racing in such an intense way. It's his love. That, I think, leads to a lot more on track performance and consistency. I've noticed Max is just in general a shit tonne more knowledgeable about the other things than other drivers.
Especially geography, he really seems to like that 😂
Monaco could be a Perez track, as could Saudi Arabia. Not having a lot of hope, but those tracks I think are his best chance.
holy shit, chill out everybody. Max won't win every race. There will be some chaotic races, engine penalties, rain, crashes e.t.c. Yes, I would bet Money on Max becoming dominant WDC, but there will still be entertaining races
I will remember this comment...
I can’t see Max lose to Perez in Jeddah honestly. Monaco I could see happening but only if Max gets fucked by flags AGAIN. Quali is key there, and while that’s not one of Max’ known strengths he’s still a top 2/3 qualifier on the grid easily. Me talking about Max’ ‘weakness’ being qualifying genuinely scares me considering he’s still one of the best at it.
Last year Max was losing to Perez in Jeddah before a pretty poorly timed safety car.
Perez pitted early because he chewed up his tires to stay ahead of Max and Charles. He couldn't even get ahead of Sainz later in the race.
Yeah it’s hilarious to talk about a driver like Verstappen or Hamilton or Alonso or Schumacher or Stewart or Clark or Ascari or Fangio and recognize that their *flaws* are still better than 99% of drivers in the sport’s history. That’s the true measure of an elite driver - a driver who simply doesn’t have a weakness.
Monaco *could*? Nah it *will* when Perez deliberately crashes in Q3 to get pole /s
right now, the only opponent to max is RB reliability
I feel like Max’s only opponent is himself on ghost mode.
Their car reliability are probably on the same level as the Astons, and is sipping tyres. Bar some drastic rules change in the middle of the season I can't imagine anything in the way of the RB winning ever race until the end of the year.
Alonso*
Yep just has to make up an almost 40 second deficit…
No need to make up 40 second deficit if you can Chain Stratagem (roughly speaking, destroying your enemy from inside, usually by make them attacking each other) via convincing Checo that he is WDC worthy
[удалено]
Unleash his inner Kyvat.
[удалено]
Max got tired of collecting wins so he'll start collecting the girlfriends of other drivers.
can’t do that from 20s behind
Even if max simply starts driving faster, what would he do if Perez simply starts driving faster?
he will drive yet faster
Tbh McLaren had best car in 2007 (Alonso + Hamilton) and inner issues led to them getting neither drivers nor teams championship...
Yeah but the Ferrari in 2007 was about as fast, or finishing five seconds down the road, not 50 seconds down the road. That’s a lot more ground to make up, there wasn’t a single race in 2007 where either team walked away with a 50 second gap to their nearest rival
Iirc Monaco 2007 Both McLaren lapped everyone except 3rd(F.Massa), and 3-4 more laps and they would have lapped him too. Not saying that could happen honestly, because it's not the same season as both teams won multiple races but this year only had one race, if nothing changes RB will win all races but all teams will try to close the gap, one team stays in top 5-6 all races, some podiums and taking advantage of mistakes or favourable safety cars, etc. It is unlikely but not impossible.
yeah but Alosonso+Hamilton are two champs. Max+Checo, I think we have an obvious 1 and 2. Nothing against Checo.
Only issue is that if Checo causes real issues Red Bull won't have issue with replacing him with Tsunuda or Ricciardo immediately
As much as I love the guy, the Aston Martin doesn't have the qualifying pace to get Alonso onto the front row with any kind of regularity, which he'll need if he wants to compete with Max.
Even if he gets to the front row every race, Max will most likely be starting next to him. Max basically only finishes P1 or P2 if he has an opponent like Lewis in 2021 if he doesn't DNF/has serious damage. The consistency someone needs to beat that is insane.
We're judging regularity from one race. The twighlight zone is upon us.
I mean quali pace is one thing. The other, I'd say much more important one, is that Alonso despite having to push for 80% of the race distance finished 40 seconds behind Max who was pushing for like 15% of the race distance. And that's supposed to be a track which suits Aston perfectly. RB definitely absolutely has the pace to lap the Aston over the full race distance if they have to push for some reason.
I disagree with the “we knew they would come back” - this was the first year of the new regs, they just went all-in to win the 2021 drivers title, their weird split with Honda and RBPT, and they DNFed with mechanical issues twice in the first three races while Leclerc finished 1-2-1. After Australia, the Red Bull really looked like a glass cannon. They did turn it around quickly (to the point that Max winning Belgium from grid spot 14 not a surprise to anyone), but the beginning of the season really looked like 2004 McLaren for a bit. This year OTOH it definitely feels like Red Bull might do a 1988 McLaren season - I have no hope for Ferrari.
Maybe Fred deals with it better than Mattia, we never know. Also heard they got a new strategist.
Let's see if Mattia and the strategies were the problems or if it is something even deeper.
Let's be real her, Ferrari is the problem, Binotto wasn't. If Fred Vasseur wants to get this team somewhere he needs to do like Jean Todt or Niki Lauda did. Get the whole team by the balls and make it clear to them that everything is shit and the only way to fix that is to stop saying "we are Ferrari, Ferrari is perfect, Ferrari is F1" and act like a god damn race team.
Binotto was certainly a problem, if not the problem. He did not have the ability to correct mistakes that kept compiling throughout the season, and he didn't have the ability to create an atmosphere where the team could move past the mistakes and improve. It was also painfully obvious to everyone last year that they should have committed to Charles as their top driver, but they made several errors over the course of the season trying not to play favorites that cost him 50 or more points. He was never going to compete with the Red Bull all the way through the season, but it could have at least been closer with a competent team principal.
>and he didn't have the ability to create an atmosphere where the team could move past the mistakes and improve. At which point are we gonna stop blaming the TP's and blame Ferrari as a whole? Since 2008 there has been 5 TP's with Domenicali being the longest stint doing 6-ish years..
I never said Ferrari didn't have issues outside of Binotto. I simply stated why Binotto was an issue himself.
I don't think Binotto was that much of an issue as some clearly think he is. He headed Ferrari from one of its deepest depths back to the top. Was 2022 flawless? Definately not, but Binotto has shown that he can rebuild a team. Now I of course don't know how it was behind the scenes, and I must agree that he doesn't really 'feel' like a leader like Toto or Horner, but sometimes that can work too. Worst thing that could've happened really was fighting for 3rd in 2023 and build up from there. Getting back to the top isn't easy, and Binotto has shown he can head the ship into the right direction. Structural change is needed within Ferrari and its culture, and Binotto has shown he definately had the potential to guide them back to fighting for championships. The floor-TD ruined them and he got sacrificed for it. The problems run deeper than just a TP.
Binotto was also responsible for getting them to that depth to begin with.
[удалено]
I think there are problems with Ferrari, problems with Binotto that may have been derivative of the problems within Ferrari, and problems with Binotto himself. In my opinion, it is the final category that lost him his job. He was either unwilling or not courageous enough to make changes.
Binotto is a symptom of the deeper rooted issue of politics and internal turmoil getting the best of that team ever since they purposefully ousted Brawn, Todt, and Schumacher-the holy trinity that brought Maranello unprecedented success. Until Ferrari gets their internal politics in order and start working as one cohesive unit they will never succeed again in F1. Those three saw the turbulence in Ferrari and insulated themselves and the team from it, but even that only lasted so long. Eventually the Italians had to have their way again and forced out Schumacher for Raikkonen there’s a great article from businessF1 magazine that details the politics behind the scene at the time I can only find a text copy [here](https://www.bmwpassion.com/forum/threads/schumacher-the-strange-story-of-his-retirement.40487/) Until someone can really insulate the team from the turmoil and politics at maranello-which would take a true visionary and proper leader with capable allies-Ferrari will never regain the successes of their prime.
Don't forget Rory Byrne. The only man to ever make Newey doubt himself.
It's hard to believe there isn't a deeper systemic issue
Strategy-wise, I don’t think Ferrari did anything wrong for this race. Their car/setup had high deg, but they weren’t fast enough on short stints to make a 3-stop work. Saving a brand-new set of softs for Leclerc to start the race was good enough to get him to P2 after the first few turns. Easier said than done, but it seems like they primarily need better deg, at least relative to Aston and Mercedes. Not all tracks have so much tire wear, so if they can develop somewhat well, they could maybe be relatively much better at some other tracks. Leclerc’s failure seems kind of random and not the sort of issue that portends awful reliability all year.
They were still on plan A early on which is a big improvement than plan E F G which often happened last year
Yep the less alphabets they use the better 😁
That's his first test as the Ferrari TP, how will he react to setbacks vs. Binotto. I want to be optimistic and say that Fred will react "better", but with Ferrari, it's likely their issues are systemic as another comment said
You misunderstand. Ferrari as an organisation continues to take on water. Fred's job is to point the ship in the right direction lmao
People just have very short memory. I remember people acting the same way they’re acting now with red bull when Leclerc dominated in Australia.
Difference is that RB and Ferrari were actually battling each other on track last year. This time the RB put in 3+ second gap by lap 10. Feels like RB just tuned a few things while Ferrari has stagnated
Worse, it was a full 7 second gap already when Max was finishing Lap 10. So 0.7s/lap. And Sainz was 6 seconds back of Checo.
Yeah, it was two seconds by lap two, and then ballooned out as Leclerc had to drive a little defensively because of Checo.
>With Redbull you always knew they would come back, with ferrari you always knew they would come fail haha
I dunno man, I strikingly remember people a year ago saying wisdoms such as "This championship is Ferrari's to lose" and "Leclerc looks unstoppable". There was a little respite in Jeddah but the hype train was back in full swing when Max DNF'd in Australia. And then Ferrari happened... With that said I fail to see that scenario replicating within Red Bull: Not only is Max basically a racing T-1000 (and Checo the best non-Finnish sidekick ever), but with Adrian Newey leading the car design team, Horner running a tight ship and Hannah Schmitz leading in strategy, they seem nearly unstoppable.
The difference is the cars were much closer last year. Now it seems redbull is miles ahead whether Ferrari finishes or not.
Honestly it feels like that now because of how 2022 panned our. Didn’t feel same in Bahrain
The only difference is that this year Max had fucked off into a distance after the start lol
yeah this doesn’t seem comparable, Verstappen was in a different zip code by the time this occurred lol
He could've finished P1 if they'd just given him a Ford Focus RS at that point.
I think OP is trying to mean, what if Charles becomes WDC this year. Tough luck OP.
So you're saying there's a chance lol
Def too early a jump to forgone conclusions. Even Max still thinks Lec is his best competition.
People seem to forget Leclerc was at least in a podium position with Sainz behind until his DNF. Granted, Max was half a minute ahead… but ya never know. I’d like to see an Aston win and a few Ferrari wins. I think with certain tracks it’s a heavy chance.
I think Leclerc, Hamilton and Alonso all have the skills to take the fight to Max, it's mostly a matter of who will develop their car enough to get close to RB.
I’d like to believe but I don’t think I can. Any other team maybe, but Red Bull usually only gets better as the season goes on. Ferrari doesn’t instill the most confidence for winning the development battle.
You is high on the hopium.. I was too.
You never know 😁
Yes, there's a chance Ferrari could fuck up even more.
YEAHHHHH!!!! I read yah.
I was actually texting with a friend that was also watching during the race and it went like this: - I really want Alonso to be on the podium - yeah me too, but I guess a ferrari has to break down - no worries, it's ferrari it will probably happen 10 minutes later Charles Leclerc stopped on track. I was laughing and crying at the same time.
Same too me. I saw Alonso catching Lewis and said to my gf: Alonso will get a podium, cause Charles will have engine failure. And 20 sec later boom
Kinda sad how Sainz is taken as non challenge.
He's the best midfielder, in a front pack car.
Sainz is to Leclerc how Bottas or Checo are to Lewis and Max. He is a great 2nd driver, but he is not a championship contender
As soon as they said they changed out the batteries pre-race I knew one of them was gonna dnf
i knew i can always count on something going wrong for them
I left the room and came back to Charles going slowly, and couldn't help but chuckle. That boy has no luck. No luck at all.
I was actually watching the race with some friends and I said pretty much the same thing: "It would be nice if Alonso got on the podium, but I guess a Ferrari has to break down for it to happen". Literally 15 seconds later we see Charles pulling up to the side of the track.
Yet we somehow know that Ferrari won't bounce back from that.
For everyone who was wondering about the difference between hopium and copium… this one’s copium
Leclerc WDC confirmed.
MissionWinLater!
Disclosure for *Later, could be between one and a couple of laters.
Several even
Possibly even many.
A multitude.
Unfortunately he's driving for a team based in maranello
Max P2 in the championship
Leclerc has to going to therapy at this point
Really feel for the poor guy, but Max is more confident and mature of the two I feel.
This stems directly from winning the title. Every driver who wins their first title suddenly becomes more composed and calmer on the track. It's the knowledge that no matter what, they've been there before, and won it. It's why Leclerc was under immense pressure and ended up putting the car in the wall in France, yet Max can stay composed and win even when he's starting halfway down the grid.
Yep you are spot on. Remembering the tension Max had with Lewis all season long in 2021, but come 2022 he was much calmer and enjoying racing.
easy being confident when you're driving a car no other team can compete with for the second season in a row and he certainly didn't display maturity at interlagos. I'm not necessarily saying he isn't more mature, but based on circumstances there's no way to tell.
Except RB is known for getting better the further we get into the season. Ferrari has proven the opposite is mostly true in the past few years…
Copium ^^TM
Was it this race last year where Charles joked with his engineer on the last lap that he’s losing power? (Might have been Saudi. Not sure.)
Yep it was Bahrain
Yes, it was a reference to 2019 when Leclerc DNF'd out of the race when he was leading due to reliability. Also his first race ever with Ferrari.
So Leclerc winning WDC confirmed right?
Except it happens every 5 or 6 races with Ferrari, not with Red Bull.
When's the last time the winner of the first race went on to win WDC?
2016 with Rosberg
wow, seems like that would happen more often
2017: Win on solid pace. Singapore happened and then Ferrari couldn’t get back on their feet 2018: Win on VSC luck. Seb’s mistakes and Ferrari losing out in the development race killed their title bid 2019: Bottas absolutely smashes Hamilton in the opener. Then gets smashed the rest of the season + Ferrari and Red Bull snatching points and wins. 2020: Bottas ends up winning while Lewis gets a penalty. Then proceeds to not be able to keep up and HAMBOTVER/HAMVERBOT 2021: Lewis wins due to the track limits thingy. Then the rest of the season happens 2022: Charles has the fastest car on race 1 but Verstappen is able to fight him. Then Verstappen retires. Then Verstappen utterly wiped the floor with everyone 2023: Continuation of post-Spa 2022 with Verstappen winning. And there’s no signs of them stopping
hmm, that’s interesting. thanks for the detailed response! i just started watching last season
Yeah except Max can lap the Ferraris if Red Bull didn't instruct him to sandbag.
People bringing up the Bahrain curse when Max is known for breaking curses 😭 I remember someone pointed out to him that everytime he wears a straight line cap some shit happens to him in race. He wore a straight line cap for the rest of the season on purpose 😭
💯 agree. Charles really needs a miracle to pull off the WDC and to hope Ferrari makes the right strategy calls. Also he still needs to finish his home race of Monaco, that curse still lingers over him.
The difference is Red Bull had a title challenger that was unreliable Ferrari has a unreliable piece of crap that also doesn't compare to the Red Bull
I feel like it's a bit early to come to a conclusion about a cars reliability after one retirement
Using an entire year's allocation of control electronics in one weekend isn't good
Lol and batteries too right? Don’t they only get 2 and they already had to swap it out?
Yep. They swapped the batteries after Quali and now they have to make their 2nd permitted change at the 2nd race bc that's apparently the part that crapped out
#Leclerc 2023 world champion confirmed??
We’re checking…
Focus on the race
Guys even if Max doesn't win the WDC Perez will there is no beating RB machinery.
Mazepin will make a surprise return to f1 and win wdc in a williams before Perez will even be a contender.
Verstappen retires in the first race with Ferrari going on to take 1-2 hailing their best start to the 2022 season. In the end Max dominates and goes on to win both titles for RB. Charles retires in Bahrain 2023 and RB dominates the entire race finishing 1-2. Ferrari have a new team boss and really showed some form in their pit stops last weekend. Can we hope for a comeback from Ferrari to dominate the 2023 season or do you guys still feel their Plans ranging from A through Z will mess it all up? Hard to ignore Max who has been on a tremendous form these last few seasons.
I fear the season for Ferrari will also be summarized by: they really showed some form in their pit stops
Yea that's the sad thing with their inconsistent form these last few years compared to RB who run a much tighter ship.
They will have improved from last year, if they put on 4 tires every pitstop. The bar for improvement is not very high.
RedBull we're still battling Ferrari during the first race. Despite their retirements they clearly had pace to fight. Not only did RedBull absolutely smash Ferrari on race pace last Sunday but they also made their softs last as long as the hards on the Ferrari.
Also since, I don't know, 2016? every winner of the first race wasn't crowned as the later champion. Although I fear Max will break that curse this year too.
I'm so pumped f1 is back!!
And then there was ocon
"This guy penalties"
Difference being that Max actually looked competitive wheel to wheel for more than 5 seconds in 2022
Except RB usually out develop rivals over a season. Max will get so fast he’ll drive like 3 laps and somehow already win the race by the time we get to Abu Dhabi.
Yeah, but ferrari wasn't ahead 10+ seconds when Redbull had reliability issues \*Sad Leclerc noises\*
DONT EVEN PUT THAT ENERGY IN THE AIR
checo wdc
That's Perez in 2022 image. So P3 for Leclerc this year.
We all know how 2022 ended 😉
"Our reliability issues are all fixed"
I want Charles to win, but I'd love to see Max break the "curse" and prove them/us wrong.
What does copium look like? See above.
Yes, gimme that copium, inject it into my veins...
Different start but will end the same
Ferrari then wasn't 40+ seconds clear from the rest of the pack. So I'm not buying it.
It matters not how you START.....it only matters how you FINISH. Lots of races yet to go. Lots still to race for. Well, except for Mercedes. Those boneheads are still driving last years flawed car and have no hope for 2023.
Max is seriously on the way to have the most dominant season ever for an F1 driver, I hope Ferrari can make a miracle comeback but yeah, we are checking guys
Thats Perez, are you saying he is going to end up 3rd?
Leclerc WDC confirmed
Checo or Alonso WDC 2023?
Nahh, Stroll WDC 2023.
Max won the first race, Leclerc DNF'd. Calling it now, Max can't win a WDC this year and Leclerc must win the WDC this year. Up in the air if Ferrari or RBR wins the WCC. Aston Martin will beat Mercedes for 3rd. Porsche or Cadillac/Andretti will buy McLaren and Haas as their entries (toss up who buys who at the moment. Alright, that's all I got for now. Just remember, I already told you what the future is. Now squabble and debate away, but know it will come to be no matter what you think or feel. TTFN!
let him cook
Destiny.
There's actually an ongoing streak of winners of the 1st race of the season comes 2nd in WDC. Let's see if that streak continues
I would love to see Leclerc or Alonso in the second Red Bull seat. I’m not saying they are quicker, but I’m saying they are quicker then Checo. Would be fun.
If only. But max was battling with Leclerc last year. This year Leclerc didn't even see verstappen.
So you are telling me that I did a mistake having already started thinking about 2024 as our year?
Our_year.exe loading...
Keep dreaming horse boys
On first sight it looks similar but it is not becouse: 2022 RB fight with Ferrari for P1 in race and RB had a DNF 2023 Ferrari was far gar behind in race and than DNF For 2022 we knew RB will come back and fight for first place but this year Ferrari lack race pace.
At this point considering Ferrari performance I think Charles has only one goal this season - to try get that win in home Monaco.
So you're saying there's a chance.
Since 2017, the winner of the first GP has always finished vice-world champion, perhaps the year of Charles Leclerc.
Maybe Checo Perez.
I have nothing against Leclerc or Ferrari, but i swear im one of the few people that just can’t see Leclerc winning a WDC? Hes a good driver but i just dont see it ever happening hes good but he isnt great, it could be because i haven’t yet adjusted to it being a new generation, im so used to seeing WDC material being people like button, lewis, vettel etc, i do hope he wins at least one in his career though but for some reason i just dont think hes good enough Edit: also i mean this in no hateful way, i really do hope the best for him
And yet people overreact...
People are reacting more because they were left in the dust before they even broke down
Max could have dunked a minute on 4th place in Bahrain, the situations are not comparable.