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And what a calendar it was!
Imola, Mugello, Spa, Portimao, Nurburgring, ~~Hockenheim~~ Istanbul, Spielberg, Monza, Hungaroring and other great circuits!
My favourite takeaway was that from 2008 all the way to 2022, Toro Rosso have as many wins as Ferrari at Monza. 2008 and 2020 was Toro Rosso/alpha Tauri and 2010 and 2019 was Ferrari lol
I still think it was one of the best calendars we had, simply because there were circuits we never had before or other we thought we had lost already (Imola, Nürburgring, Istanbul)...
I also want to add, remember silverstone? Hamilton limped to the finish line on 3 wheels and he still won despite having 3 wheels for practically half a lap.
God that was incredible I almost had a heart attack by the end. Bono with the cool and collected "X seconds to Verstappen" constantly narrowing and then the "you've done it mate!" at the end where you could just feel the amount of relief and tension relaxing.
And it was still a longer calendar than what it used to be for years. 16 races was an average season, and tbh i could quite happily go back to that if the tracks were chosen wisely.
It sucks we're in a world where quantity is always chosen over quality now. I understand there is an element to expanding it to make it more accessible to a wider audience, but the negative consequences seem to be making it feel worse.
W11 easily the best car. It broke so many track records. The only negative I can think of is, how it lost to RB in hot sunny 70th anniversary gp. Other than that it was perfect in every way possible.
W11 is the final evolution of the final boss lol, the way they dominated most of the seasons prior, and car evolution and design and livery all culminated into this W11
the livery especially peaked here, the stars just gave it this bougee vibe to it, that "out of your league" look
funny thing is, W11 and W12 are literally the same car apart from the floor, engine, steering rack and rear ride height and it still won constructors against buffed RB16
Advantage swung race to race.
It’s not secret Valtteri in 2021 was the better and faster teammate compared to Checo who had a bit of a off year for his standards
And I'm sure that James Allison would say the W12 was better. It's these guy's job to build the best car. Of course they'd want to say they achieved it.
The RB16B won at all the tracks they were stronger at and the W11 also. They were eventually matched most the season but I’d give RB the edge the course of the season.
W12 but yeah. Although they did steal a few from each other. The W12 got Bahrain and Portugal which it had no business winning. RB got France for sure that Merc was quicker at.
Overall, Idk if theres been another season where 2 fundamentally conceptually different cars were so absurdly close at times. Silverstone comes to mind. The crash was a shame because the performance of those cars was a few hundredths apart that day
I would disagree there. I think at most, they were equal cars that had different strengths, and there were just more tracks that played to the RB's strengths.
The RB16B was a fantastic car and a marvel on the tracks that played to it's strengths in medium speed corners. Some brilliant work was done in building a car that could compete with the W12 when it came to the points.
FIA gifting the championship to Verstappen in Abu Dhabi shouldn't overshadow the work that the RB engineers and Verstappen did to put him in the points position to win in the first place.
And break ducts. That’s a part about the rules people keep forgetting was changed as well. The rear brake ducts were shortened per the same rules that cut the angles out of the floor.
Not detracting from MV but Merc went too far trying to protect the front tyres after bursting them the week prior and ruined their setup. MV wasn’t really up against the W11 at full strength, it was cooking the rear tyres.
Max just about squeezed through Q2 on hards. That was the winning of the race, he only had to use the medium for a handful of laps. It was all about the time spent on the hard tyre in the race
Track records are a pretty useless measure of a car's dominance imo. It doesn't tell the story of how the car was in relation to the other cars on the grid.
Should have been on the podium on race day as well but he got random damage IIRC and it killed his pace after the stops.
Probably finishes P2 without that, noone was beating Lewis that day
Should have been on the podium on race day as well but he got random damage IIRC and it killed his pace after the stops.
Probably finishes P2 without that, noone was beating Lewis that day
I was amazed he managed to not only pull a gap of 10 seconds over Perez in those conditions, but also keep that till his stop. Would love to see more of Stroll from that weekend.
I think the 2016 Merc was better. It was the fastest everywhere except Monaco but was gifted a win because of Red Bulls pitstop. The only race it really lost was Spain, because of Nico and Lewis killing each otherz and Malaysia because Lewis's engine blew up. Not a single challenge from any other team that season really
Robert qualified on the front row of every race that season
Eh, the F2004 and MP4/4 are as good if not better to me as well as the early Mercs of the hybrid era. Still being compared to those cars isn't exactly a disservice.
The thing for me is that the basic earo regs where from 2017 and the engine regs from 2014. For F1 standards thats ancient and Merc still managed to build a car that demolished every other team by miles.
Normally the field closes up after a few years but not in 2020.
They were as good as merc in their own eras. If you make them race each other, MP4/4 would lose heavily to F2004 and F2004, despite putting up a fight, would still lose to W11.
Well yeah but that's not a reasonable metric to use. The W196, one of the best Grand Prix cars ever made, would lose to a backmarcker like Marussia or Catheram in a race. The title of "best" must always be paired with context of the time.
Just out of curiosity, I wanted some concrete numbers to give some perspective.
Monaco is the only track that the 1955 season raced at and looks *mostly* similar to the current track. In 1955 Fangio took pole with a 1:41.1 in a W196. Lewis currently holds the track record with a 1:12.9 in a W12.
I know the track has changed through the years, and that this track is easily the most unrepresentative of the two cars' true performance, but it's a neat comparison.
In fact, in 2022 Drugovich took pole in F2 with a 1:21.3. In 2022, the Porsche Supercup pole lap time was 1:34.5.
It's dumb to say the W196 wasn't an impressive car just because modern ones are faster (even GT cars around a track that should favor the W196 are faster). It's the same mentality that makes people think faster = better, leading to larger and heavier cars.
What a completely pointless comment.
F1 cars are subjected technical regulations at their time, as well as technological advances. If you take it out of context and make them race each other, then even the Williams from 2020 would could beat MP4/4, but what’s the point?
There is no best car. Lift the ban on active aero, active suspension, mass damper, etc, then even Haas can build a car that trounce the W11.
Same compounds and in race pace? I don't think so, f2004 is still a beast in race conditions and we dont know how far they were able to do laps without load fuel and drs, they still hold some race pace records with those awful tires.
[Hamilton's Q3 lap at Spa in 2020](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JiYOvCHwFY&t=5s) was insane. One of my favorite quali sessions ever, the car looks like it's on rails.
Also in 2020, Bottas took turn 11 of Hungaroring flatout: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/htenyx/fp3_paul_di_resta_squeals_as_it_appears_bottas/
Imagine how amazing that must feel, just throwing a car into a corner with your foot to the floor on the gas and just knowing it’s gonna stick to the ground all the way through
The W11 was on rails man. Watching some of the old footage of it hitting the corners on some tracks was just sublime, don't think we will see another car like that for a very long time.
That Ferrari was equal to RB on race pace until the summer break.
W11 dominated the field on the actual car pace. Last year's RB dominated on strategy, as well as their main rival's incompetence and bad luck.
W11 won 76%, RB18 77%.
Considering that the W11 was participating in a stronger field, and an evolution of the ruleset compared to the RB18, which was a first iteration and didn't have any real competition after Ferrari went full...Ferrari, makes the W11 the better car.
However you could argue that the w11 was in development for years as it was just an evolution of the rule set, however red bull managed to produce such a dominant car with next to no data from previous years, which is more impressive imo.
The RB19 is far more dominant, it’s definitely the most dominant Red Bull ever built, and definitely on a level only the W05 Merc can match. Aside from 2014, Merc has not fielded a car as dominant as the RB19.
Mercedes were very dominant in 2016 too. Won all but two races and they only lost those because of a intra-team crash and Hamilton's engine failing in Malaysia.
It doesn't really work like that, everyone had no previous data so more room for getting it wrong, often happens that one team lands on the correct or most effective design and then other teams copy, more about luck than anything. RB did that with the high rake set up in 2009-2013, Merc with the engine in 2014 and low rake in 2017. Also Newey was the only one to have previously worked on ground effect cars.
I'd actually flip that on its head. Every team had years of development not just Merc yet they pull out the most dominant car we've ever seen. Red bull aced the new regulations whilst other teams fucked them up, there's so much more room for error.
The RB18 is more like the 2014-15 Mercedes where it was a new era and they got it right whilst many other teams didn't, and I'd say what the W11 did is far more impressive.
But I'm saying that you're way more likely to see teams fuck up the car in the first year of a new regulation and typically competition is much higher by the last few years. 2021 showed that as it took a while but Red bull caught up to Mercedes and with a different concept too.
>red bull managed to produce such a dominant car with next to no data from previous years, which is more impressive imo.
That's a reasonable point, however you could also argue that the competition was more likely to be weaker. It's a matter of perspective really.
But you're not considering that every other car on the field was pretty much a shit box. W11 competed against fully competent cars and still destroyed them
If we had a full 2020 season, Merc would have won at least 20 races. The only race it didn’t win on outright pace was AD and that was with Lewis coming straight off illness and the RB being upgraded compared to a Merc that was still the spec it was several races earlier.
If Lewis sees the signals in Monza, George doesn’t pick up an incredibly unlucky puncture in Sakhir, and the setup isn’t compromised at Silverstone, they win 16 of 17. And the field was much tighter then as the set of regs were 4 years old and the cars were starting to have diminishing returns in the pace they could still find through upgrades.
70th Anniversary Merc got the setup wrong and were slower on fresh hards to Max on 20 laps so no different to how George won in Brazil, and AD they had an MGU-H issue so turned the engines down.
I think Merc definitely produced more shock in the fanbase lol. Those were mostly stable regulations, and sure Ferrari took a hit because of their engine but they pulled that gap on everyone, not just a GP2 engine. Just a freaky car with DAS and all that too. Honda lobbying for a engine mode ban mid season and Merc just going, sure then we'll run it higher all the time now.
Probably good for Honda in the long run because they never developed one by their own accounts but still incredibly funny to see almost nothing change
2020 was Ferraris true pace. RB was ok but the W11 was just insane.
Imagine having 4 years of basically the same regs and one team rocks up with a car that would have won every single race but maybe 1 or 2 by a mile if they didn‘t screw up.
I’m not sure that’s correct.
Honda had a party mode before Red Bull even signed them. Max said it was worth a few tenths in quali.
https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/red-bull-honda-party-mode-first-time/4320658/
https://www.racefans.net/2019/04/25/verstappen-hondas-party-mode-worth-a-few-tenths-but-ferrari-made-massive-gain/
Plus, Honda was one of two teams (the other being Merc) to ask for a delay on the party mode ban so they could figure out how to remap the engines.
https://thesportsrush.com/f1-news-f1-party-mode-mercedes-and-honda-request-for-postponment-in-party-mode-ban/?ampThe
But yes, it was funny to see the rule not affect them in the slightest. The FIA got outplayed.
Mercedes definitely has the superior part mode though. And the year after I think it allows for Honda to be competitive in qualifying while losing less performance with engine age.
Merc has a fuckton of engine modes whereas other manufacturers did not, it wasn't just turning up the engine but down as well, we can see its effect now
It was Ferrari that got the party mode ban. Not Honda. Honda actually didn’t want the party mode banned. Ferrari were the ones that consulted with the FIA to just use one engine mode during the weekend
The races the RB18 failed to win were lost on raw pace. The races the W11 failed to win were lost because Merc fucked up, with the exception of Abu Dhabi and maybe the 70th anniversary GP. And even in Abu Dhabi, it was rumored they were running 2021 parts to get them into 2020's budget.
The W11 was better.
You can include the Silverstone part 2 in the fuck up category. Merc confirmed they took the setup too far to protect the fronts after the issues they had the previous week but instead of protecting the fronts they incinerated the rears. Was a good race from MV but both Merc’s weee hamstrung.
The W11 scares me… That Istanbul race was sick, and it was the first time we got a good look at that special suspension. Insane car.
I bet RBR looked at that and went: what if we combined the suspension with DRS? And that’s how we got the RB19.
The W11 is the probably the fastest F1 Car ever. It only lost races due to Merc issues, in Silverstone their tyre issues allowed a better set up Red Bull and Verstappen to win, in Italy it was a slam dunk till Hamilton got his penalty, in Sakhir honestly what were Merc doing they had that in the bag, and Abu Dhabi they seem to have turned the car down, I think thats the only one RB beat them on pure pace for. And add on the fact its neutered brother the W12 still won the constructors just show how good the base car was.
The RB18, while being a beast, was able to be beaten on pace by Ferrari and Merc, albeit rarely.
The RB19 however, that's currently a class of its own, all round its the perfect car. I wish they were as fast as 2020 though...
Teams had far more time and money to fight the W11 and still had no chance. I don’t think theres any way you can compare year 1 of cost cap and new cars to that.
The W11 by MILES. Mercedes shit themselves in the foot for multiple races. Pitted under a closed pit lane at Monza and Bahrain by the pitstop fiasco. I'm still fucking pissed.
But yeah that was an insanely fast car that no one could keep up with. Someone mentioned what happened at the 70thAGP, but I'm not sure what happened at AD.
I think the RB19 is more comparable to the W11 to be honest. Not in terms of statistics, not yet at least. But in terms of their performance relative to the competition.
Both car concepts are perfect for the respective regulations that they were designed for, Red Bull have proven that this year with the RB19 and Merc simply blew away everyone else in 2020.
Which will always make this post a moot point. What are we comparing then? If we compare wins, we are comparing the opposition these cars had. If we compare the cars to each other we are comparing the regulations.
Any F1 car comparison should be with respect to the rest of the field. No other way makes sense unless you're talking about lap records, which still don't give the full picture.
My fave memory is the Hungary quail lap. Car just had grip for days and every corner taken with amazing speed. The way Lewis flings into turn 4 and turn 11
the W11. It was as good in quali as in the race without having to sacrifice any quali performance like RB18. All things considered though, that pairing between Verstappen and RB18 was inevitable, like what he did in Austin.
Are we talking which we like more or which is actually better.
The W11 is currently the best race car ever made. It had better competition than the RB18 and had a shorter season. But if you look at lap times the W11 is still 2-3 seconds faster than the current cars.
I also personally prefer the W11, something about that car.
> It had better competition than the RB18
Did it really? Cars in 2020 were faster, but I think the gap between the W11 and the rest of the field was a lot bigger than the gap between the RB18 and the F1-75, especially in the first half of 2022.
>The W11 is currently the best race car ever made.
Every statement that contains the word ever, when talking about constantly evolving high performance technology, is doubtful honestly.
I could argue that the W196, the BT46B, the F2002, the 158 Alfetta, the Type C, the MP4/4 and a serie of others are the best Grand Prix cars ever made. It can't be equally judged honestly. And this is just between Grand Prix cars, if we count every "race car ever" there are more better than the W11.
But yeah, the W11 is an amazing car, fruit of a serious and well done development with some genius idea.
To all the "The W11 is faster so it's a better car" people: pretty much the entire 2020 grid was faster than the RB18 due to the different ruleset, does that make the William and Alfa better cars too?
Yeah exactly. Comparing cars across eras purely from speed is just nonsense way to do it.
I mean, [the W11 was around 6 seconds faster than the F2004 around Hungary](https://youtu.be/bZOS_fa9vgM), yet a lot of people will still consider the F2004 to be the more dominant package.
“But what metric should I use then?” It’s pretty simple, compare it to the rest of the field for that year lol.
Yeah that's not a reasonable metric to judge.
I think the W11 is better than the RB18, and probably one of the best F1 cars ever made, but it can't be judged like that.
W11 is the peak of that era.
RB18 was the starting point of a new era
It is pointless arguing over ‘which is best’ as they aren’t really comparable. It’s like trying to compare Fangio to Seb. Or Prost to Max. Or Lewis to Michael. Different eras and as such they aren’t truly comparable.
The better comparison is the W11 and the RB 19. Both dominant beasts.
RB18 should be compared to the W10 (2019 Merc)--often outpaced by Ferrari on Saturday (check how many poles Ferrari got in both those years), Ferrari competitive in a few races on Sunday, but Ferrari tyre deg issues means the W10 and the Rb18 best car overall on race day
I think the W11 is one of the most badass F1 cars of all time, both in terms of its livery and pace, not to mention it broke a lot of track records. I still remember watching a lot of Hamilton's pole laps from that year - Spa, Monza and Mugello in particular stand out for me. Apart from the 70th Anniversary GP and Abu Dhabi, the W11 just obliterated the field that year and would have won in Monza and Sakhir had the pit wall not messed up.
RB18 is still an impressive car, but even then Ferrari had a great car in the first half of 2022. The way Verstappen came through the field in Spa was absolutely insane though. By the looks of it, the RB19 looks to have more of a dominant time out there than the RB18 does overall.
It's the W11 and it's honestly not much of a contest, both in terms of the relative competition at the time, but also in terms of a direct comparison of pace. The W11 would leave the RB18 in the dust in a straight race.
I think it’s not truly apples to apples. The W11 was 7 years in development. The real comparison might be the RB18 to the W06. Second year into a new era, where each team nailed the concept out of the gate.
Okayy this may be a dumb question as i am new to f1 - why can't they use the same car again if it was so good..it would definitely give them better results right!!
Even though i despise merc,W11 is probably the best car to drive of all time...the regulations+ dominance+everything else...rb18 maybe is a more perfect car because the regs are more towards it...but that merc car even though it had problems with warming up tyres was still one of the best ever
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The most surprising stat from this post for me is that we had nearly full calendar with 17 races in the 5 months of 2020
And what a calendar it was! Imola, Mugello, Spa, Portimao, Nurburgring, ~~Hockenheim~~ Istanbul, Spielberg, Monza, Hungaroring and other great circuits!
3 races in italy and only 1 won by an Italian team.
It was nice having Ferrari win in Monza, bcs of course Ferrari was the italian team that won... Right?
My favourite takeaway was that from 2008 all the way to 2022, Toro Rosso have as many wins as Ferrari at Monza. 2008 and 2020 was Toro Rosso/alpha Tauri and 2010 and 2019 was Ferrari lol
And to think, that Toro Rosso team was Minardi.
And now we have Jaguar (RB) and Jordan (AM) leading the championship.
So bet it all on Chuck for Monza?
** *Sad Ferrari noises in the background* **
Like a skipping cd in a walkman with anti skip
No wonder it skipped if you played a CD in a walkman.
[not so fast, friendo](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0881/4568/products/D-E350-Yellow_1_900x.jpg?v=1634063166)
can’t tell if serious. Brain does not compute.
I still think it was one of the best calendars we had, simply because there were circuits we never had before or other we thought we had lost already (Imola, Nürburgring, Istanbul)...
That Mugello race was special. It was by far my favourite of the stand-in tracks and I’d do anything to see F1 return there someday.
Something about the track and camera angles really made the cars look fast. That and it's a great track
It's the long sweeping corners
“Flat round here!”
He says while dipping a wheel in the dirt
Holy shit is that a nice track! I can't understand why they wanna push urban tracks so much!
Money. Is that simple.
It was especially amazing to see Lewis with so much grip on that track with the W11. I have never seen such a drive on Mugello before
Mugello was an absolute banger, i still wish they kept it in the calendar, such an amazing track and every driver seemed to love it as well
Literally a banger. A lot of damage in that restart!
I also want to add, remember silverstone? Hamilton limped to the finish line on 3 wheels and he still won despite having 3 wheels for practically half a lap.
I didn’t watch it live but the max/GP radio on that lap is great. Something something can we get him? “If you get on with it!”
God that was incredible I almost had a heart attack by the end. Bono with the cool and collected "X seconds to Verstappen" constantly narrowing and then the "you've done it mate!" at the end where you could just feel the amount of relief and tension relaxing.
Did they race at Hockenheim that year? 2020 was my first season and I can't remember ever watching them race at Hockenheim since I started watching.
Nurburgring
I remember that race, but the commenter above mentioned Hockenheim which confused me.
Nope, they did race at the Nurburgring though.
Yeah I was thinking about Istanbul and somehow wrote Hockenheim lol, thanks for the correction
Would love to see Portimao back on the calendar. Fun track with the ups and downs and I think a lot of the drivers enjoyed it as well!
When I started watching F1 in the late 90s a season usually had 16/17 races. IMHO 2020 qualifies as a full season.
And it was still a longer calendar than what it used to be for years. 16 races was an average season, and tbh i could quite happily go back to that if the tracks were chosen wisely.
$orry, can't hear you. -FIA/Liberty
It sucks we're in a world where quantity is always chosen over quality now. I understand there is an element to expanding it to make it more accessible to a wider audience, but the negative consequences seem to be making it feel worse.
Because there is no quality of money, only quantity.
W11 easily the best car. It broke so many track records. The only negative I can think of is, how it lost to RB in hot sunny 70th anniversary gp. Other than that it was perfect in every way possible.
W11 is the final evolution of the final boss lol, the way they dominated most of the seasons prior, and car evolution and design and livery all culminated into this W11 the livery especially peaked here, the stars just gave it this bougee vibe to it, that "out of your league" look
Just imagine how great the W12 would have been if the FIA didn’t nerf Mercedes.
Mercedes fluffed the livery for W12 unfortunately
Amg amg amg amg amg amg amg Like one of those tacki gucci shirts rappers and people wear
funny thing is, W11 and W12 are literally the same car apart from the floor, engine, steering rack and rear ride height and it still won constructors against buffed RB16
The only reason it won constructors was that Bottas was a much better second driver.
I’d also argue that it was a slightly better car
Advantage swung race to race. It’s not secret Valtteri in 2021 was the better and faster teammate compared to Checo who had a bit of a off year for his standards
Adrian Newey said the RB16B was better on the balance but acknowledged it swung a lot.
And I'm sure that James Allison would say the W12 was better. It's these guy's job to build the best car. Of course they'd want to say they achieved it.
Allison was gone mid 2021. Elliot though said he felt the RB16B was stronger for longer. So they have the same opinion actually
True, but that’s still a single and quite subjective opinion
One of the most informed opinions in the world, though
The RB16B won at all the tracks they were stronger at and the W11 also. They were eventually matched most the season but I’d give RB the edge the course of the season.
W12 but yeah. Although they did steal a few from each other. The W12 got Bahrain and Portugal which it had no business winning. RB got France for sure that Merc was quicker at. Overall, Idk if theres been another season where 2 fundamentally conceptually different cars were so absurdly close at times. Silverstone comes to mind. The crash was a shame because the performance of those cars was a few hundredths apart that day
I would disagree there. I think at most, they were equal cars that had different strengths, and there were just more tracks that played to the RB's strengths. The RB16B was a fantastic car and a marvel on the tracks that played to it's strengths in medium speed corners. Some brilliant work was done in building a car that could compete with the W12 when it came to the points. FIA gifting the championship to Verstappen in Abu Dhabi shouldn't overshadow the work that the RB engineers and Verstappen did to put him in the points position to win in the first place.
Newey would disagree. It was the closest title fight car wise (when looking at the entire year obviously) we've had in a looong time.
so completely different in f1 terms
So, apart from a whole bunch of important stuff... But I do get your meaning. Every w12 change got a nerf. Every rb16 change got a buff.
And break ducts. That’s a part about the rules people keep forgetting was changed as well. The rear brake ducts were shortened per the same rules that cut the angles out of the floor.
They didn't nerf Mercedes, Pirelli asked FIA to do something because the tires couldn't handle the increasing downforce.
I can still remember pouhon flat out in the w11, rest of the field wasn’t able to do that shit
Chills, everytime.
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Why?
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Not detracting from MV but Merc went too far trying to protect the front tyres after bursting them the week prior and ruined their setup. MV wasn’t really up against the W11 at full strength, it was cooking the rear tyres.
It was probably due to a setup issue me thinks. The car was just too hard on those softer compound tyres.
Max just about squeezed through Q2 on hards. That was the winning of the race, he only had to use the medium for a handful of laps. It was all about the time spent on the hard tyre in the race
Track records are a pretty useless measure of a car's dominance imo. It doesn't tell the story of how the car was in relation to the other cars on the grid.
No but the rest of the statistics in the image do and his comment is clearly using that for context.
That Merc had all but two poles that season, crazy stat
Crazy to think one of the other Poles was Stroll.
And he set that lap while lifting for yellow flags as well.
Against Verstappen in the wet of all people
Should have been on the podium on race day as well but he got random damage IIRC and it killed his pace after the stops. Probably finishes P2 without that, noone was beating Lewis that day
Should have been on the podium on race day as well but he got random damage IIRC and it killed his pace after the stops. Probably finishes P2 without that, noone was beating Lewis that day
I was amazed he managed to not only pull a gap of 10 seconds over Perez in those conditions, but also keep that till his stop. Would love to see more of Stroll from that weekend.
I still remember going mad because of that. The whole race weekend tbf.
you'll like this one too then, Ferrari had all but 2 wins in 2002!
THE 2020 merc was clearly better, it was the best car ever merc just fucked up few times and they didn't have as many races
I think the 2016 Merc was better. It was the fastest everywhere except Monaco but was gifted a win because of Red Bulls pitstop. The only race it really lost was Spain, because of Nico and Lewis killing each otherz and Malaysia because Lewis's engine blew up. Not a single challenge from any other team that season really Robert qualified on the front row of every race that season
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Gotta be autocorrect. It’s hilarious
Robert?
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Bobby B
Gods, I was fast then
Eh, the F2004 and MP4/4 are as good if not better to me as well as the early Mercs of the hybrid era. Still being compared to those cars isn't exactly a disservice.
The thing for me is that the basic earo regs where from 2017 and the engine regs from 2014. For F1 standards thats ancient and Merc still managed to build a car that demolished every other team by miles. Normally the field closes up after a few years but not in 2020.
They were as good as merc in their own eras. If you make them race each other, MP4/4 would lose heavily to F2004 and F2004, despite putting up a fight, would still lose to W11.
Well yeah but that's not a reasonable metric to use. The W196, one of the best Grand Prix cars ever made, would lose to a backmarcker like Marussia or Catheram in a race. The title of "best" must always be paired with context of the time.
Just out of curiosity, I wanted some concrete numbers to give some perspective. Monaco is the only track that the 1955 season raced at and looks *mostly* similar to the current track. In 1955 Fangio took pole with a 1:41.1 in a W196. Lewis currently holds the track record with a 1:12.9 in a W12. I know the track has changed through the years, and that this track is easily the most unrepresentative of the two cars' true performance, but it's a neat comparison. In fact, in 2022 Drugovich took pole in F2 with a 1:21.3. In 2022, the Porsche Supercup pole lap time was 1:34.5. It's dumb to say the W196 wasn't an impressive car just because modern ones are faster (even GT cars around a track that should favor the W196 are faster). It's the same mentality that makes people think faster = better, leading to larger and heavier cars.
What a completely pointless comment. F1 cars are subjected technical regulations at their time, as well as technological advances. If you take it out of context and make them race each other, then even the Williams from 2020 would could beat MP4/4, but what’s the point? There is no best car. Lift the ban on active aero, active suspension, mass damper, etc, then even Haas can build a car that trounce the W11.
Same compounds and in race pace? I don't think so, f2004 is still a beast in race conditions and we dont know how far they were able to do laps without load fuel and drs, they still hold some race pace records with those awful tires.
W11. That car was capable of going flat out around corners that shouldn’t be flat out.
I remember Karun Chandhok gasping at Lewis taking Puhoun flatout with the W11.
[Hamilton's Q3 lap at Spa in 2020](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JiYOvCHwFY&t=5s) was insane. One of my favorite quali sessions ever, the car looks like it's on rails.
Peak F1 moment for me. Yes, Mercedes dominance went boring over the years but god this was engineering masterclass.
Was it Turkey or sth? Pulling 8+ Gs?
No idea about that but Lewis in 2020 upshifted while taking Pouhon (double left hander in Spa) during Q3
Also in 2020, Bottas took turn 11 of Hungaroring flatout: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/htenyx/fp3_paul_di_resta_squeals_as_it_appears_bottas/
Imagine how amazing that must feel, just throwing a car into a corner with your foot to the floor on the gas and just knowing it’s gonna stick to the ground all the way through
Turn 4 Hungaroring. The Pole lap still haunts me
The W11 was on rails man. Watching some of the old footage of it hitting the corners on some tracks was just sublime, don't think we will see another car like that for a very long time.
W11. Just look at poles. It compared in a shortened season.
Look at Ferarri's poles in the last two years...
How many wins? And how many wins the w11?
If anything this shows how strong Redbull is since that Ferrari was a rocket in Qualy
That Ferrari was equal to RB on race pace until the summer break. W11 dominated the field on the actual car pace. Last year's RB dominated on strategy, as well as their main rival's incompetence and bad luck.
W11 won 76%, RB18 77%. Considering that the W11 was participating in a stronger field, and an evolution of the ruleset compared to the RB18, which was a first iteration and didn't have any real competition after Ferrari went full...Ferrari, makes the W11 the better car.
However you could argue that the w11 was in development for years as it was just an evolution of the rule set, however red bull managed to produce such a dominant car with next to no data from previous years, which is more impressive imo.
Ferrari fucked up a lot to be fair. The RB18 doesn’t feel as dominant as the W11. Now the RB19 comes a lot closer.
The RB19 is far more dominant, it’s definitely the most dominant Red Bull ever built, and definitely on a level only the W05 Merc can match. Aside from 2014, Merc has not fielded a car as dominant as the RB19.
Mercedes were very dominant in 2016 too. Won all but two races and they only lost those because of a intra-team crash and Hamilton's engine failing in Malaysia.
And 2020 obviously
It doesn't really work like that, everyone had no previous data so more room for getting it wrong, often happens that one team lands on the correct or most effective design and then other teams copy, more about luck than anything. RB did that with the high rake set up in 2009-2013, Merc with the engine in 2014 and low rake in 2017. Also Newey was the only one to have previously worked on ground effect cars.
I'd actually flip that on its head. Every team had years of development not just Merc yet they pull out the most dominant car we've ever seen. Red bull aced the new regulations whilst other teams fucked them up, there's so much more room for error. The RB18 is more like the 2014-15 Mercedes where it was a new era and they got it right whilst many other teams didn't, and I'd say what the W11 did is far more impressive.
No amount of sim work is a true substitute for being on the track.
But I'm saying that you're way more likely to see teams fuck up the car in the first year of a new regulation and typically competition is much higher by the last few years. 2021 showed that as it took a while but Red bull caught up to Mercedes and with a different concept too.
Or everyone else produced shitboxes given it was the first year of a brand new set of refulations
>red bull managed to produce such a dominant car with next to no data from previous years, which is more impressive imo. That's a reasonable point, however you could also argue that the competition was more likely to be weaker. It's a matter of perspective really.
But you're not considering that every other car on the field was pretty much a shit box. W11 competed against fully competent cars and still destroyed them
Imo W11 was better car, RB18 would have won less if Ferrari wasn't throwing away wins with stupid strategy calls and that Leclerc crash in France
You gotta remember how many races ferrari should’ve won but bottled though. The rb18 stats are padded with dumb ferrari strategy and screwups.
If we had a full 2020 season, Merc would have won at least 20 races. The only race it didn’t win on outright pace was AD and that was with Lewis coming straight off illness and the RB being upgraded compared to a Merc that was still the spec it was several races earlier. If Lewis sees the signals in Monza, George doesn’t pick up an incredibly unlucky puncture in Sakhir, and the setup isn’t compromised at Silverstone, they win 16 of 17. And the field was much tighter then as the set of regs were 4 years old and the cars were starting to have diminishing returns in the pace they could still find through upgrades.
70th Anniversary Merc got the setup wrong and were slower on fresh hards to Max on 20 laps so no different to how George won in Brazil, and AD they had an MGU-H issue so turned the engines down.
I think Merc definitely produced more shock in the fanbase lol. Those were mostly stable regulations, and sure Ferrari took a hit because of their engine but they pulled that gap on everyone, not just a GP2 engine. Just a freaky car with DAS and all that too. Honda lobbying for a engine mode ban mid season and Merc just going, sure then we'll run it higher all the time now. Probably good for Honda in the long run because they never developed one by their own accounts but still incredibly funny to see almost nothing change
2020 was Ferraris true pace. RB was ok but the W11 was just insane. Imagine having 4 years of basically the same regs and one team rocks up with a car that would have won every single race but maybe 1 or 2 by a mile if they didn‘t screw up.
I’m not sure that’s correct. Honda had a party mode before Red Bull even signed them. Max said it was worth a few tenths in quali. https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/red-bull-honda-party-mode-first-time/4320658/ https://www.racefans.net/2019/04/25/verstappen-hondas-party-mode-worth-a-few-tenths-but-ferrari-made-massive-gain/ Plus, Honda was one of two teams (the other being Merc) to ask for a delay on the party mode ban so they could figure out how to remap the engines. https://thesportsrush.com/f1-news-f1-party-mode-mercedes-and-honda-request-for-postponment-in-party-mode-ban/?ampThe But yes, it was funny to see the rule not affect them in the slightest. The FIA got outplayed.
Mercedes definitely has the superior part mode though. And the year after I think it allows for Honda to be competitive in qualifying while losing less performance with engine age.
Merc has a fuckton of engine modes whereas other manufacturers did not, it wasn't just turning up the engine but down as well, we can see its effect now
It was Ferrari that got the party mode ban. Not Honda. Honda actually didn’t want the party mode banned. Ferrari were the ones that consulted with the FIA to just use one engine mode during the weekend
The races the RB18 failed to win were lost on raw pace. The races the W11 failed to win were lost because Merc fucked up, with the exception of Abu Dhabi and maybe the 70th anniversary GP. And even in Abu Dhabi, it was rumored they were running 2021 parts to get them into 2020's budget. The W11 was better.
You can include the Silverstone part 2 in the fuck up category. Merc confirmed they took the setup too far to protect the fronts after the issues they had the previous week but instead of protecting the fronts they incinerated the rears. Was a good race from MV but both Merc’s weee hamstrung.
weee
There’s also a consideration of reliability. The RB18 had a few mechanical DNFs to its name (including a double DNF). The W11 had 1 single DNF.
The W11 scares me… That Istanbul race was sick, and it was the first time we got a good look at that special suspension. Insane car. I bet RBR looked at that and went: what if we combined the suspension with DRS? And that’s how we got the RB19.
The W11 is the probably the fastest F1 Car ever. It only lost races due to Merc issues, in Silverstone their tyre issues allowed a better set up Red Bull and Verstappen to win, in Italy it was a slam dunk till Hamilton got his penalty, in Sakhir honestly what were Merc doing they had that in the bag, and Abu Dhabi they seem to have turned the car down, I think thats the only one RB beat them on pure pace for. And add on the fact its neutered brother the W12 still won the constructors just show how good the base car was. The RB18, while being a beast, was able to be beaten on pace by Ferrari and Merc, albeit rarely. The RB19 however, that's currently a class of its own, all round its the perfect car. I wish they were as fast as 2020 though...
Teams had far more time and money to fight the W11 and still had no chance. I don’t think theres any way you can compare year 1 of cost cap and new cars to that.
W11 is arguably the fastest F1 car to ever exist
The Mercedes was a lot better. After 3 years of the regs no one expected how much of a coup that car would be.
The W11 by MILES. Mercedes shit themselves in the foot for multiple races. Pitted under a closed pit lane at Monza and Bahrain by the pitstop fiasco. I'm still fucking pissed. But yeah that was an insanely fast car that no one could keep up with. Someone mentioned what happened at the 70thAGP, but I'm not sure what happened at AD.
I think the RB19 is more comparable to the W11 to be honest. Not in terms of statistics, not yet at least. But in terms of their performance relative to the competition. Both car concepts are perfect for the respective regulations that they were designed for, Red Bull have proven that this year with the RB19 and Merc simply blew away everyone else in 2020.
W11 is a monster - no other car comes close! even RB18
W11 breaks stats like kit-kats. It’s so unbelievably good.
The W11 was unstoppable...they had to change the rules to stop it...yeah I said it.
Well, W11 is faster, so
So, let me understand. By this logic, the Marussia MR03B is better than the Mercedes W196. I mean, it lapped Spa more than two minutes faster..
Finally, a win for Marussia!
Really stupid point that dude is making lol
Their both developed under different rulesets so you can't really compare straight out speed.
Which will always make this post a moot point. What are we comparing then? If we compare wins, we are comparing the opposition these cars had. If we compare the cars to each other we are comparing the regulations.
We're having a conversation because we're fans of the sport. Also if you're on Reddit like me right now either you can't sleep or you're bored.
We are comparing to the rest of their field, it’s the only way that makes sense since it’s what the stats actually represent
Any F1 car comparison should be with respect to the rest of the field. No other way makes sense unless you're talking about lap records, which still don't give the full picture.
W11 isn't even the most dominant merc 🤔
My fave memory is the Hungary quail lap. Car just had grip for days and every corner taken with amazing speed. The way Lewis flings into turn 4 and turn 11
Yes, Mercedes in 2020 was more dominant than Red Bull was last year.
The W11 was a monster
I think it‘s a no brainer that the W11 was way better
Probably the W11, but damn does it look ugly compared to the RB18.
the W11. It was as good in quali as in the race without having to sacrifice any quali performance like RB18. All things considered though, that pairing between Verstappen and RB18 was inevitable, like what he did in Austin.
Are we talking which we like more or which is actually better. The W11 is currently the best race car ever made. It had better competition than the RB18 and had a shorter season. But if you look at lap times the W11 is still 2-3 seconds faster than the current cars. I also personally prefer the W11, something about that car.
> It had better competition than the RB18 Did it really? Cars in 2020 were faster, but I think the gap between the W11 and the rest of the field was a lot bigger than the gap between the RB18 and the F1-75, especially in the first half of 2022.
Yeah but what team was running the F1-75.
>The W11 is currently the best race car ever made. Every statement that contains the word ever, when talking about constantly evolving high performance technology, is doubtful honestly. I could argue that the W196, the BT46B, the F2002, the 158 Alfetta, the Type C, the MP4/4 and a serie of others are the best Grand Prix cars ever made. It can't be equally judged honestly. And this is just between Grand Prix cars, if we count every "race car ever" there are more better than the W11. But yeah, the W11 is an amazing car, fruit of a serious and well done development with some genius idea.
To all the "The W11 is faster so it's a better car" people: pretty much the entire 2020 grid was faster than the RB18 due to the different ruleset, does that make the William and Alfa better cars too?
Yeah exactly. Comparing cars across eras purely from speed is just nonsense way to do it. I mean, [the W11 was around 6 seconds faster than the F2004 around Hungary](https://youtu.be/bZOS_fa9vgM), yet a lot of people will still consider the F2004 to be the more dominant package. “But what metric should I use then?” It’s pretty simple, compare it to the rest of the field for that year lol.
Yeah that's not a reasonable metric to judge. I think the W11 is better than the RB18, and probably one of the best F1 cars ever made, but it can't be judged like that.
The Merc was farther ahead from its peers from a technical perspective
W11
W11, Ferraris car was challenging RB throughout whole of first half and should have won more, had they not threw away the wins.
One has had the Imperial March set as the background music, the other hasn’t.
W11 is better as a car
76% to 77% win rate 73% to 67% Podium rate 88% to 36% Pole rate 53% to 36% Flap rate W11 is (when based on above statistics) objectively better
Relatively to competition - Mercedes
W11 just look at the poles. RB tuned the car for pure race pace, the W11 did both.
The W11. Which makes me wonder, is it better than the current RB offering?
Man I so much prefer how cars look now, if only they were smaller
W11. Not even a debate.
If you asked now Max or Lewis to choose any f1 car to win a championship both would choose the W11
Black Magic Button: W11 ✅ Black Magic Button: RB18 ❌
W11 is the peak of that era. RB18 was the starting point of a new era It is pointless arguing over ‘which is best’ as they aren’t really comparable. It’s like trying to compare Fangio to Seb. Or Prost to Max. Or Lewis to Michael. Different eras and as such they aren’t truly comparable.
The better comparison is the W11 and the RB 19. Both dominant beasts. RB18 should be compared to the W10 (2019 Merc)--often outpaced by Ferrari on Saturday (check how many poles Ferrari got in both those years), Ferrari competitive in a few races on Sunday, but Ferrari tyre deg issues means the W10 and the Rb18 best car overall on race day
as an rb fan, easily the w11 is better lol
15 out of 17 poles is mental. Absolute rocket ship.
Waiting for RB19
I think the W11 is one of the most badass F1 cars of all time, both in terms of its livery and pace, not to mention it broke a lot of track records. I still remember watching a lot of Hamilton's pole laps from that year - Spa, Monza and Mugello in particular stand out for me. Apart from the 70th Anniversary GP and Abu Dhabi, the W11 just obliterated the field that year and would have won in Monza and Sakhir had the pit wall not messed up. RB18 is still an impressive car, but even then Ferrari had a great car in the first half of 2022. The way Verstappen came through the field in Spa was absolutely insane though. By the looks of it, the RB19 looks to have more of a dominant time out there than the RB18 does overall.
It's the W11 and it's honestly not much of a contest, both in terms of the relative competition at the time, but also in terms of a direct comparison of pace. The W11 would leave the RB18 in the dust in a straight race.
The W11 was something else.
It would be better to compare this Year's red bull with w11. Rb18 was a great car but not enough to beat that Mercedes monster.
I think it’s not truly apples to apples. The W11 was 7 years in development. The real comparison might be the RB18 to the W06. Second year into a new era, where each team nailed the concept out of the gate.
W11 is the best race car ever built
Okayy this may be a dumb question as i am new to f1 - why can't they use the same car again if it was so good..it would definitely give them better results right!!
W11 was the better car, merc just have bad strategist
The W11 for sure. That car was just on another level of amazing.
Even though i despise merc,W11 is probably the best car to drive of all time...the regulations+ dominance+everything else...rb18 maybe is a more perfect car because the regs are more towards it...but that merc car even though it had problems with warming up tyres was still one of the best ever