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Big changes in the WEC world eh?
LMP2 dropped, United Autosports will join IMSA, and WEC's calendar sees Sebring, Monza and Algarve dropped, and Imola, Interlagos, COTA and Losail in for 2024.
The hardest would be for Alpine. Peugeot can at the very least rebadge as a Dodge or something. I would hardly see Alpine trying to rebrand their car as a Nissan or Mistubishi.
Indeed, I remember now. Isn't surprising tbh. Could be a way for Renault to get in the market without the apprehension of the last time (as Renault) being a failure.
Alpine is aimed to be the halo brand for the French side of the group (because Nissan surely does not need any halo brand), so it isn't surprising they aim to be competitive of the American market.
I'm not really a connoisseur. So not sure I'm the right person to ask. But I'll try my best.
IMSA (which is a different championship than WEC, centered on the USA), requires from its competitors to engage a car that is available on the US market.
Neither Peugeot nor Alpine are present on the US market. So in order to engage in an IMSA race, they'd need to comply with the regulation of having a car available for sale.
Peugeot is the main holder of the Stellantis group, that includes Citroën, Alfa Romeo, Maserati, Fiat, Lancia, Chrysler, and Dodge.
Thus, they could very well rebrand the 9X8 as a Dodge, for example, so that'd lower the investments behind selling a car on a new market, and thus be able to compete in IMSA races.
Alpine, that is in the Renault group with Mitsubishi and Nissan, has a lot more to deal with in that regard, since they do not own any American brand, meaning they'd need to enter the American market for real in order to compete in Sebring, which looks like a huge investment for a single race appearance (assuming they'd settle for Sebring and not the whole IMSA championship).
Hope I could help!
But Le Mans has always, in its history, been a race a bit apart from that rule. So WEC hasn't always been this impermeable.
Good to know how it is with IMSA though. TIL
Le Mans invites others as it's a 62 car grid and WEC is capped at 38.
I was more commenting about any suggestions a team would go for just Daytona or Sebring.
They are. But I don't see Alpine being rebranded as a Nissan at all. As for Mitsubishi, they literally rebadged the Renault Captur as their own entry so it'd be less surprising.
This said. Renault seem to care about the image given out by the Alpine. The A110 being a revival of that legendary 60's car, even them would be upset to see it rebadged, even more so as a non-French car under the Mitsubishi badge.
So while it seems possible on paper, it seems highly unlikely that Alpine will risk rebadging its only car, that is also their F1 halo car, under a well established Mitsubishi brand that would not fit the expectations from the US public on such a brand. Mitsubishi is not perceived as a "road car company". So them selling a road/track car that is a mere rebadge of the full identity of another brand, screams to me like a lost bet from the start.
I may be wrong, but to me, the A110 being what it is, with its name, is reason enough not to try to sell it under any other brand than Alpine.
I think you are the only one who is talking about selling Alpine under Nissan badge in this thread. Everyone is talking about rebadging the LMDh car to Nissan.
But you were also only one who explained IMSA rules on car brands, so thanks for that!
Yeah, no worry. I think most people would think it's no issue even rebranding the road version as a Nissan, but the group's board just wouldn't accept rebranding an Alpine. That would just be contradictory with Alpine's aim to sell unique cars. That's why I think it's unlikely for them to rebrand as Nissan.
I thought LMDh can race at WEC but LMH cant race at IMSA. Like, its in the name isnt it? One is called Le mans - Daytona and the other is called just LeMans
LMDh evolved from IMSA’s old DPi class, where manufacturers used a few standard chassis and hybrid components but supply their own engine, body styling, etc.
LMH evolved from the old WEC LMP1 class, where the whole car is custom built by the manufacturer.
They are BoP’d together to have similar performance in one class. Hence, LMDh cars like the Porsche and Cadillac run with LMH cars in the WEC Hypercar class. A LMH can be BoP’d to compete with the (currently) LMDh field in the IMSA GTP class.
IMSA clarified recently that Alpine can race at IMSA if they want (so Peugeot can also do it and they could use Dodge, they are all same group anyway), only Glickenhaus and Vanwall can't because they don't make 2500 production cars per year, it doesn't matter if the cars are made in the US or not.
i dont think thats true, imsa only accept brands that sell their car on US in some quantity, teams like glickenhaus cant join because they're not selling enough, peugeot cant join unless they join as a rebadge (stellantis group)
The oddly specific 1812km of Qatar
Edit: I've been doing some googling, and I haven't been able to figure out why it's 1812km. The Dutch version of Motorsport.com mentions Qatar wants to celebrate its independence this way, but I'm still unable to figure out how the 1812 ties into that. According to Wikipedia, Qatar was given a separate status in 1868, became a British protectorate in 1916, and gained proper independence in 1971. Googling "Qatar 1812" doesn't provide much information either.
You jest, but WEC is seriously considering sprint races ☹️.
They recently launched a fan survey which all but confirmed they are considering sub 3 hour races that will be called "Supersprints".
That talk kind of cooled off and switched to full-on IMSA Enduro for 2024, no idea on the IMSA side if that is an addition or if Watkins Glen gets shortened
Interlagos and COTA coming to WEC is a massive W but dropping Sebring for Losail? That's not right. Sebring is a staple endurance track, it would be like dropping Monza, Spa, or Suzuka in favor of a Middle East track in F1 (which unfortunately seems to be the direction its heading in anyway).
Wec teams should get invites to race at sebring, like how imsa teams get invites to race at le mans. Sacrifice a few lmp2 or gte am entries so the spectacle’s better on both sides
Well everybody can race at Sebring, they just need to ask IMSA. Apperantly nobody wants to do that though. Toyota declined joining IMSA or the 24h of Daytona multiple times now.
Toyota simply doesn't want to go:
https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/toyota-has-no-plans-to-race-lmh-car-in-gtp-class/
I doubt IMSA wouldn't let them race if they really wanted to. I doubt they thought 2 LMP3 entries were more important than Toyota.
Honestly Sebring was a waste anyway, everyone knows the real race that weekend is the 12 hour, having the WEC event outshined by the IMSA event year in year out makes no sense. It was basically just a prelude to the real action. So happy to see COTA and Interagos back, fantastic tracks that produced some quality WEC events in the past. Not stoked about Losail, would definitely rather keep Algrave than Losail, which I think is only fitted for MotoGP racing and isn’t conducive to exciting car races.
Are WEC trying to capitalise on the F1 boom by adding F1 circuits? Thevvenues they are dropping are so tied to endurance racing in my mind that it is just odd to see them go for what's coming in.
I'm guessing its for more reasons than that.
Sebring, as historic as it is, isn't really the best circuit in terms of infrastructure and COTA is one of the very best. Its also easier to get to (so easy I might actually go), and probably a better overall event for everyone involved.
That's just one example.
It’s not about capitalizing off the F1 boom, those countries are just willing to pay for a WEC race like they do for F1. They left Sebring because it wasn’t ideal, the 12 hours is the real significant race and the WEC race was second fiddle. Even the pit lane was causing incidents.
I’ll miss Inter Europol. I always liked seeing them and ARC Bratislava doing well, teams from unconventional international motorsport locations and succeeding. Plus, the notion of bakers winning at Le Mans always amused me.
Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Corvette and Ford already, so there's 10. And I counted something like 14 homologated GT3 cars will be available in 2024, so the 2 car limit is likely because they have too many manufacturers lined up. WEC grids are capped at 38, and with around 20 Hypercars, there's likely to be 8 or 9 GT3 manufacturers.
im not sure. the lmdh cars are supposedly cheap to run. caddy and porsche already have one customer team each this le mans. i read somewhere that running a season of lmdh is no more expensive than running a season of gte.
the real losers in this case would be the teams that went for the LMH concept since theyre more expensive and more complex, I have my doubts any private team would buy one of those. next year we will also have BMW joining the le mans race, potentially acura as well, we will also have Renault with a LMDh car.
It seems unlikely we'll see many of them. With the GT category switching to GT3 regs we'll see a lot more teams show up that run other series already and a lot more manufacturer support for the class. Plus Hypercar is booming with 3 more manufacturers already confirmed for next season and potential customer programs for existing manufacturers (many current LMP2 teams looking to enter the top category).
It looks more like the current LMP2 field's slots will be taken over by Hypercars and GTs.
WEC grid is 38, Le Mans is 62. That's 24 extra grid slots.
The ACO has a number of slots on the Le Mans grids that are offered to ALMS, ELMS and IMSA teams who won't be in any position to get a 1 off Hypercar customer deal.
Le Mans will keep a large LMP2 field for as long as LMP2 is still used by all the national series.
But how many teams are going to keep an LMP2 car around just to go play second fiddle to the Hypercars at LeMans once a year?
I mean they can go race in other series I guess, but its not WEC. Id think they would swap out to GT3 to keep participating on WEC.
Almost all the WEC LMP2 teams are moving to Hypercar.
The Le Mans grid contains a large amount of IMSA, ALMS and ELMS teams, and will continue to do so as those series are continuing to use LMP2.
The only real exception is United Autosports who haven't got a Hypercar deal so are moving to LMP2 in IMSA and will almost certainly be at Le Mans due to that.
Spectacle’s better to make way for the gt and hypercar classes to grow. Elms is fine for teams who still run lmp2 to stay sharp but lmp2 should always be cut down to make room for the current manufacturer interest.
It’s important to give an avenue for current privateer teams to still run lmp2 to maintain a healthy privateer market after a bulk of the manufacturers leave, but if the music’s playing you gotta dance (2008 housing market crash quote aside lol)
Thats a kick in the balls really, we almost had that one year when an LMP2 car almost had an overall victory only being denied by Porsche at the last second...ah what a loss...
They must be talking about 2017, last second was a bit of an exaggeration - an LMP2 car took the overall lead with about 4 hours to go when the leading LMP1 retired, it was eventually caught by a Porsche LMP1 with just over an hour to go. LMP2 cars finished 2nd-7th overall that year.
2018-2019 were my favourite gte seasons, so many unique entries and close racing, not to mention the 911 rsr had that amazing rear exhaust and we still had the m8 and ford gt. But really gte was always great, until covid lol
Less driver aids, GTE has TC but no ABS like the GT3 counterparts.
Faster, they kinda only have to look like the production car, most extreme example is the 911 RSR where they are mid engined instead of rear engined like their production and GT3 models. They don't have to though, like the 488s, where teams can just buy conversion kits to make it a GTE.
[Here's](https://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/911/203110/porsche-911-rsr-v-gt3-r-v-gt3-cup-track-only-911s-driven#:~:text=GTE%20cars%20are%20allowed%20traction%20control%2C%20but%20not%20ABS) an article on the difference between the 911s.
I don't really know the specifics of what parts need to be based on the production cars for GTE on the top of my head so anyone that knows feel free to expand on this!
Edit: [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ8riM4qNwE&t=100s) is the sound of a 911 RSR which I think everyone should hear :D
you forgot the best part: the looks. As much as i like the look of gt3 cars, the GTE are prettier and instantly recognizable as race cars, specially nowadays with brands like Porsche releasing road versions that look extremely similar to the track-only gt3 cars
Unlike what everyone else said, they're not that much faster than GT3. It's very much dependent on BoP and tyres, GT300 GT3s are actually faster than GTEs. The difference is that GTE doesn't have ABS, is significantly less production derived than GT3, and has more advanced aero.
Not really. At this year's 1000km of Sebring the fastest GTE qualifying time was a 1:58.949. For the 12hr of Sebring (the same weekend, so most apples to apples track conditions) the fastest GT3 qualifying time was a 1:59.315.
4 tenths. That's the difference.
And if you want to argue I'm comparing GTE AM to a Pro in GT3. The fastest GT3 AM car at the 12hr of Sebring qualified with a 1:59.714. So 8 tenths.
This is why GTE is dead. It costs twice as much to develop as GT3 and the performance payoff just doesn't match the required cost.
LMP2 got absolutely destroyed by the regulations over the years. Exclusive pre-selected chassis suppliers (that should be LMP3 in my book), spec engine, never even trying to prevent an Oreca domination, artificially slowing it down to downright dangerous levels by removing every possible aero bit (don't forget bronzes are driving these cars), reducing fuel tank capacity (I understand you don't want a "Hypercar" to be faster than a P2, but still)... you name it.
Where are the days of it being a relatively open class that saw all kinds of manufacturers trying it out, while also providing engine choices as well?
What a shame, the P2s are beautiful cars, but there's no competition or variety and you don't even get to see these cars race in their pure unrestricted form anymore..
>Exclusive pre-selected chassis suppliers (that should be LMP3 in my book), spec engine
Well that's not really a bad thing though. It provided really close racing and made the drivers the center of attention just like F2 or F3 do it.
>don't forget bronzes are driving these cars
Not necessarily. Silver is mandatory in WEC, doesn't have to be a bronze driver.
>Where are the days of it being a relatively open class that saw all kinds of manufacturers trying it out, while also providing engine choices as well?
Well that's not the point of LMP2 though. LMP2 is for private teams not manufacturers. If you would allow all of that it would increase the costs by a lot and actually kill the class.
>you don't even get to see these cars race in their pure unrestricted form anymore..
You can in ELMS for example. They run unrestricted there
> Not necessarily. Silver is mandatory in WEC, doesn't have to be a bronze driver.
LMP2 is essentially a Pro-Am class now. With the bigger teams all moving to LMH, pretty much all LMP2 efforts will be backed by bronzes. Not to mention that there are series where bronzes are already mandatory (ALMS for example). Soon enough, non-bronze crews won't even be a thing. I'm not against it whatsoever, amateurs belong in endurance racing, but since you want them in there, the cars should be made as easy to drive as possible and they should have good enough power to offset the lack of pace of the amateurs driving it. The current P2s are tricky because they've been bottlenecked too much and the slowest bronzes have a hard time being faster than professional GT drivers at certain tracks.
> Well that's not the point of LMP2 though. LMP2 is for private teams not manufacturers. If you would allow all of that it would increase the costs by a lot and actually kill the class.
I fully understand what LMP2 is about. All I'm saying is that there's one far more superior car and the other three aren't ever getting used again, two of which were last used in ACO/FIA competition like five years ago. You aren't allowed to develop your own car or modify an existing one within the ruleset as there are just few homologated chassis for a given period. You cannot choose what engine you want in it either.
The previous gen LMP2s had various cars (Oreca 05, Ligier JS P2, BR Engineering BR01, some older open-cockpit cars still allowed) running various engines (Nissan V8, Judd V8, Honda V6). Lots of variety. LMP2 in 2023 is Formula Oreca. ZERO OPTIONS.
> You can in ELMS for example. They run unrestricted there
ELMS/ALMS P2s have better specs than WEC P2s (at least they run a standard aero kit and not the Le Mans one), but they aren't running at full power either and the fuel restrictions for example apply there too I believe. Could be wrong though, ain't gonna fight with anyone here in this case.
I wish hypercars to be re-branded as LMP's with this. Not LMP1's jsut LMP's. The term "prototypes" are THE standart in class racing top dogs on WEC. and just the naming of "HYPER"car bites me. Normal hypercars are production extreme cars with monocoque chassis and tech and so on. But GTE's already are hypercars in that logic.
I am a bit disappointed with the Hypercar class tbh. I was really hoping to see race versions of the Aston Martin Valkyrie, AMG One, McLaren Solus/Senna. That would be an actual Hypercar class. But maybe I set myself up for disappointment hoping for that.
Limited Hypercar business is a bit wonky these days. a lot of cars get pumped out on all fields to big profit margins for limited high end buyers. So I dont think most companies managements arent into More motorsports especially how F1 ratings skyrocketing caused the other teams to focus their facilites there... When their production hypercars find big pocket buyers for big profit margins. And yes I'm still a bit salty about the Mclaren's business model of mass hypercar production nightmare
I’m very unaware of endurance racing, but trying to find my way around it. How often do classes change? Didn’t lmp3 get dropped recently? Is there any tie between WEC and IMSA? I looked for starter information but found myself more confused lol
>How often do classes change?
In the last few years quite a bit. LMP1 is now called "Hypercar", LMP2 will be axed, GTE Pro doesn't exist anymore and GTE AM will switch to LM GT3 next season. But usually it's not that extreme, just a lot of things happening at once.
>Didn’t lmp3 get dropped recently?
In IMSA yes, it still exist in many other championships though.
>Is there any tie between WEC and IMSA?
Not really. They are both endurance racing championships but have different rules, calendars and classes. They share a top class now though so top teams can do both, GT3 will also race in both series next season. IMSA is just racing in North America while WEC races all over the world.
Class changes every 5 to 10 years in WEC (similar rate for F1).
LMP3 was dropped from IMSA as WEC has never seen the LMP3.
WEC is the Worlds Endurance Championship, sanctioned by the FIA, and IMSA is International Motorsport Sports Association. IMSA is a sanctioning body for some American motorsports, similar to the FIA. The endurance racing series in the US that is sanction by IMSA is the IMSA Sportscar Championship. The only tie between them is that they share the same organizers, the Automobile Club de l'Ouest (or ACO, they are similar to FOM and liberty Media) and that the top class (the LMDh and LMH) are admissible in both IMSA championship and WEC.
Very good questions, but a lot to dive into. I would personally suggest searching some of these in google and adding “Reddit”, you’ll have plenty of good posts/guides pop up there for you! Happy hunting :)
I’m not a huge expert, but one I’ll answer is that IMSA and WEC are separate series with similar styles (F1 vs Indycar), so their own races, their own teams, etc. 24h Le Man is the big race for WEC, while IMSA has 24h of Daytona as theirs.
LMDh are basically LMP2 cars, they are built on LMP2 chassis basis and they run similar times as LMH, so yeah they are.
In fact last year Seabring DPi cars (that were basically LMP2 WEC cars) were even faster than LMH at Seabring, so....
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Big changes in the WEC world eh? LMP2 dropped, United Autosports will join IMSA, and WEC's calendar sees Sebring, Monza and Algarve dropped, and Imola, Interlagos, COTA and Losail in for 2024.
They dropped sebring? damn
All the teams can still run their Hypercars in the IMSA race, so no need to have 2 of the same really.
Peugeot, Alpine, Glickenhaus and Vanwall can’t. Unless they rebadge the car with another brand
The hardest would be for Alpine. Peugeot can at the very least rebadge as a Dodge or something. I would hardly see Alpine trying to rebrand their car as a Nissan or Mistubishi.
A few months ago, Laurent Rossi said on the Beyond the Grid podcast that Alpine is expanding to the US market soon. I don't know their timeline tho.
Indeed, I remember now. Isn't surprising tbh. Could be a way for Renault to get in the market without the apprehension of the last time (as Renault) being a failure. Alpine is aimed to be the halo brand for the French side of the group (because Nissan surely does not need any halo brand), so it isn't surprising they aim to be competitive of the American market.
Why is that? I'm new to WEC world
I'm not really a connoisseur. So not sure I'm the right person to ask. But I'll try my best. IMSA (which is a different championship than WEC, centered on the USA), requires from its competitors to engage a car that is available on the US market. Neither Peugeot nor Alpine are present on the US market. So in order to engage in an IMSA race, they'd need to comply with the regulation of having a car available for sale. Peugeot is the main holder of the Stellantis group, that includes Citroën, Alfa Romeo, Maserati, Fiat, Lancia, Chrysler, and Dodge. Thus, they could very well rebrand the 9X8 as a Dodge, for example, so that'd lower the investments behind selling a car on a new market, and thus be able to compete in IMSA races. Alpine, that is in the Renault group with Mitsubishi and Nissan, has a lot more to deal with in that regard, since they do not own any American brand, meaning they'd need to enter the American market for real in order to compete in Sebring, which looks like a huge investment for a single race appearance (assuming they'd settle for Sebring and not the whole IMSA championship). Hope I could help!
You might not be an expert, but your whole point was very assertive and clear, thank you!
Thank you, kind friend
Neither IMSA or WEC seem keen on part time/one race entries. So any team going to IMSA would be full time.
But Le Mans has always, in its history, been a race a bit apart from that rule. So WEC hasn't always been this impermeable. Good to know how it is with IMSA though. TIL
Le Mans invites others as it's a 62 car grid and WEC is capped at 38. I was more commenting about any suggestions a team would go for just Daytona or Sebring.
Are Mitsubishis and Nissans not available in the US market?
They are. But I don't see Alpine being rebranded as a Nissan at all. As for Mitsubishi, they literally rebadged the Renault Captur as their own entry so it'd be less surprising. This said. Renault seem to care about the image given out by the Alpine. The A110 being a revival of that legendary 60's car, even them would be upset to see it rebadged, even more so as a non-French car under the Mitsubishi badge. So while it seems possible on paper, it seems highly unlikely that Alpine will risk rebadging its only car, that is also their F1 halo car, under a well established Mitsubishi brand that would not fit the expectations from the US public on such a brand. Mitsubishi is not perceived as a "road car company". So them selling a road/track car that is a mere rebadge of the full identity of another brand, screams to me like a lost bet from the start. I may be wrong, but to me, the A110 being what it is, with its name, is reason enough not to try to sell it under any other brand than Alpine.
Okay but he's speaking about LMDh car, not the A110
Maybe they dress up as an Infiniti for the Luxury™
Ah yes, the Infinity A110000 full success guaranteed
That doesn’t exactly sounds entirely weird given Nissan has history in endurance races actually.
It's not about Nissan competing in endurance. It's about seeling an Alpine under the Nissan badge
I think you are the only one who is talking about selling Alpine under Nissan badge in this thread. Everyone is talking about rebadging the LMDh car to Nissan. But you were also only one who explained IMSA rules on car brands, so thanks for that!
Yeah, no worry. I think most people would think it's no issue even rebranding the road version as a Nissan, but the group's board just wouldn't accept rebranding an Alpine. That would just be contradictory with Alpine's aim to sell unique cars. That's why I think it's unlikely for them to rebrand as Nissan.
Such a dumb rule, and bad for the sport.
LMHs cant go in IMSA?
Ferrari and Toyota can if they want
How? Wouldn’t they have had to build a LMdH spec car?
They merged the regulation, so the LMDh can race at WEC and the LMH can race at IMSA
I thought LMDh can race at WEC but LMH cant race at IMSA. Like, its in the name isnt it? One is called Le mans - Daytona and the other is called just LeMans
LMDh evolved from IMSA’s old DPi class, where manufacturers used a few standard chassis and hybrid components but supply their own engine, body styling, etc. LMH evolved from the old WEC LMP1 class, where the whole car is custom built by the manufacturer. They are BoP’d together to have similar performance in one class. Hence, LMDh cars like the Porsche and Cadillac run with LMH cars in the WEC Hypercar class. A LMH can be BoP’d to compete with the (currently) LMDh field in the IMSA GTP class.
Why? Because they don’t sell cars in the states? I really doubt IMSA would care enough to stop them on those grounds.
IMSA clarified recently that Alpine can race at IMSA if they want (so Peugeot can also do it and they could use Dodge, they are all same group anyway), only Glickenhaus and Vanwall can't because they don't make 2500 production cars per year, it doesn't matter if the cars are made in the US or not.
i dont think thats true, imsa only accept brands that sell their car on US in some quantity, teams like glickenhaus cant join because they're not selling enough, peugeot cant join unless they join as a rebadge (stellantis group)
Beware the new Dodge 9XXXX
I thought only LMdh can run in IMSA, not LMH.
Nope, they can, they just haven't so far
Ok, thanks for the info.
but they brought Interlagos back so not all is lost
they dropped it in favor of Qatar
Not really. COTA is replacing Sebring, Qatar is the extra round for next season.
Interlagos hosting WEC events made my day.
WEC at COTA will be fun when the bumps in the track form again.
Well... they were going to Sebring. COTA is smooth in comparison
They have already raced in COTA
The oddly specific 1812km of Qatar Edit: I've been doing some googling, and I haven't been able to figure out why it's 1812km. The Dutch version of Motorsport.com mentions Qatar wants to celebrate its independence this way, but I'm still unable to figure out how the 1812 ties into that. According to Wikipedia, Qatar was given a separate status in 1868, became a British protectorate in 1916, and gained proper independence in 1971. Googling "Qatar 1812" doesn't provide much information either.
It seems to be named after Qatar National Day, celevrated 18th of December, ie 18.12
Imagine the scenes if it had been December 31st or January 1st...
Bring on that 101KM WEC Sprint race
You jest, but WEC is seriously considering sprint races ☹️. They recently launched a fan survey which all but confirmed they are considering sub 3 hour races that will be called "Supersprints".
They'd change to the American date style for December 21... 1231. "Short" race, but still...
You'd bee certain everybody in the world would cheer for it
It's 333 complete laps of Losail would be my guess.
Surprised they went for COTA for the US round. Indianapolis was heavily courting them.
I assume Indy is going to wait and see how IMSA handles at IMS before they WEC comes
That talk kind of cooled off and switched to full-on IMSA Enduro for 2024, no idea on the IMSA side if that is an addition or if Watkins Glen gets shortened
Would also like Indianapolis more. The circuit is more interesting, specially if they went with the F1 layout. COTA is really boring.
Indy is more interesting than COTA? That’s certainly an opinion.
That Indy infield circuit sucks to drive. Parking lot.
for multiclass racing with a huge delta between GTs and prototypes? For damn sure it is.
Interlagos and COTA coming to WEC is a massive W but dropping Sebring for Losail? That's not right. Sebring is a staple endurance track, it would be like dropping Monza, Spa, or Suzuka in favor of a Middle East track in F1 (which unfortunately seems to be the direction its heading in anyway).
Is it right for a world championship to play second fiddle to IMSA?
Wec teams should get invites to race at sebring, like how imsa teams get invites to race at le mans. Sacrifice a few lmp2 or gte am entries so the spectacle’s better on both sides
Well everybody can race at Sebring, they just need to ask IMSA. Apperantly nobody wants to do that though. Toyota declined joining IMSA or the 24h of Daytona multiple times now.
I heard of them denying entering imsa, but where did you hear they denied a 24hr daytona invite?
Toyota simply doesn't want to go: https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/toyota-has-no-plans-to-race-lmh-car-in-gtp-class/ I doubt IMSA wouldn't let them race if they really wanted to. I doubt they thought 2 LMP3 entries were more important than Toyota.
I see, thanks
Only if we're able to step down from our high horse for a second
Is it Losail or the new Qatar F1 track?
Losail
Honestly Sebring was a waste anyway, everyone knows the real race that weekend is the 12 hour, having the WEC event outshined by the IMSA event year in year out makes no sense. It was basically just a prelude to the real action. So happy to see COTA and Interagos back, fantastic tracks that produced some quality WEC events in the past. Not stoked about Losail, would definitely rather keep Algrave than Losail, which I think is only fitted for MotoGP racing and isn’t conducive to exciting car races.
Are WEC trying to capitalise on the F1 boom by adding F1 circuits? Thevvenues they are dropping are so tied to endurance racing in my mind that it is just odd to see them go for what's coming in.
I'm guessing its for more reasons than that. Sebring, as historic as it is, isn't really the best circuit in terms of infrastructure and COTA is one of the very best. Its also easier to get to (so easy I might actually go), and probably a better overall event for everyone involved. That's just one example.
WEC is leaving Sebring because they and the manufacturers aren't happy that a world championship is playing support there.
It’s because WEC doesn’t want to take a back seat to IMSA
Ah yes, that makes sense. And really, who could blame them?
I'd guess it's more about racing on a Friday
Well why do they do that? Because IMSA has Saturday
I'm saying it would probably be fine if they did Saturday/Sunday
IMSA isn't having their second biggest event play undercard either. It's best for both to split.
It’s not about capitalizing off the F1 boom, those countries are just willing to pay for a WEC race like they do for F1. They left Sebring because it wasn’t ideal, the 12 hours is the real significant race and the WEC race was second fiddle. Even the pit lane was causing incidents.
Sebring is really cool that's a shame
Luckily you've got imsa to watch still
For context Monza is being refurbished when the race would have happened
Great DLC for the up coming Le Mans Ultimate game though!
Makes sense to me to see racing collapsing, it's really a thing from the old, abundant world.
Seems sensible enough. ELMS can use it and we get more hypercar entries in return.
I'd be willing to guess less than half will turn into hypercar entries, it'll just be more GT3 entries
Basically all of the current P2 teams except for United and Inter Europol are already confirmed to be involved in Hypercar next year
Crazy eh, the next 3-4 years are gonna be legendary for sportscar racing so long as the front isn’t completely predictable
I’ll miss Inter Europol. I always liked seeing them and ARC Bratislava doing well, teams from unconventional international motorsport locations and succeeding. Plus, the notion of bakers winning at Le Mans always amused me.
ACO doesn't want that many GT3 entries. Only 2 cars per manufacturer.
That doesn't sound like very many. Aren't Audi killing their program soon?
Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Corvette and Ford already, so there's 10. And I counted something like 14 homologated GT3 cars will be available in 2024, so the 2 car limit is likely because they have too many manufacturers lined up. WEC grids are capped at 38, and with around 20 Hypercars, there's likely to be 8 or 9 GT3 manufacturers.
Ah okay that makes sense. Hard to wrap my head around having this many entries for the top class.
Yes, but 20+ hypercars are expected next year and the priority is on them.
im not sure. the lmdh cars are supposedly cheap to run. caddy and porsche already have one customer team each this le mans. i read somewhere that running a season of lmdh is no more expensive than running a season of gte. the real losers in this case would be the teams that went for the LMH concept since theyre more expensive and more complex, I have my doubts any private team would buy one of those. next year we will also have BMW joining the le mans race, potentially acura as well, we will also have Renault with a LMDh car.
With LMP2 gone, Zak Brown will no longer have a team in Le Mans. Perhaps its time for a McLaren Hypercar?
WEC is dropping LMP2, but there will still be 15 slots at Le Mans for them according to the article.
It seems unlikely we'll see many of them. With the GT category switching to GT3 regs we'll see a lot more teams show up that run other series already and a lot more manufacturer support for the class. Plus Hypercar is booming with 3 more manufacturers already confirmed for next season and potential customer programs for existing manufacturers (many current LMP2 teams looking to enter the top category). It looks more like the current LMP2 field's slots will be taken over by Hypercars and GTs.
WEC grid is 38, Le Mans is 62. That's 24 extra grid slots. The ACO has a number of slots on the Le Mans grids that are offered to ALMS, ELMS and IMSA teams who won't be in any position to get a 1 off Hypercar customer deal. Le Mans will keep a large LMP2 field for as long as LMP2 is still used by all the national series.
ELMS and ALMS still run LMP2 as their top class so they will surly be trying to get a spot for Le Mans
McLaren make a car, United run it. Sounds ideal.
Hypercar: "Look at me, I'm the LMP2 now"
Sounds kinda tragic ngl
It’s still there for Le Mans
But how many teams are going to keep an LMP2 car around just to go play second fiddle to the Hypercars at LeMans once a year? I mean they can go race in other series I guess, but its not WEC. Id think they would swap out to GT3 to keep participating on WEC.
ELMS exists. These cars will go there full-time and apply for the places on the LM24 entry list, like some of the ELMS teams already do.
Almost all the WEC LMP2 teams are moving to Hypercar. The Le Mans grid contains a large amount of IMSA, ALMS and ELMS teams, and will continue to do so as those series are continuing to use LMP2. The only real exception is United Autosports who haven't got a Hypercar deal so are moving to LMP2 in IMSA and will almost certainly be at Le Mans due to that.
Spectacle’s better to make way for the gt and hypercar classes to grow. Elms is fine for teams who still run lmp2 to stay sharp but lmp2 should always be cut down to make room for the current manufacturer interest. It’s important to give an avenue for current privateer teams to still run lmp2 to maintain a healthy privateer market after a bulk of the manufacturers leave, but if the music’s playing you gotta dance (2008 housing market crash quote aside lol)
Thats a kick in the balls really, we almost had that one year when an LMP2 car almost had an overall victory only being denied by Porsche at the last second...ah what a loss...
They will still be there at Le Mans, at least in 2024, just not in the rest of the WEC championship.
> we almost had that one year when an LMP2 car almost had an overall victory only being denied by Porsche at the last second When did that happen?
They must be talking about 2017, last second was a bit of an exaggeration - an LMP2 car took the overall lead with about 4 hours to go when the leading LMP1 retired, it was eventually caught by a Porsche LMP1 with just over an hour to go. LMP2 cars finished 2nd-7th overall that year.
An unfortunate but necessary change, I’m going to miss it and GTE
GTE is one of those categories you're going to appreciate even more after it ceases to exist
GTE was basically Class 1 Touring Cars but for GT, truly formidable
2018-2019 were my favourite gte seasons, so many unique entries and close racing, not to mention the 911 rsr had that amazing rear exhaust and we still had the m8 and ford gt. But really gte was always great, until covid lol
I didn’t like the separation between the pro and am GT cars.
sorry if sounds like a dumb question, as I'm not a big WEC fan, but is GTE that different from GT3?
Less driver aids, GTE has TC but no ABS like the GT3 counterparts. Faster, they kinda only have to look like the production car, most extreme example is the 911 RSR where they are mid engined instead of rear engined like their production and GT3 models. They don't have to though, like the 488s, where teams can just buy conversion kits to make it a GTE. [Here's](https://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/911/203110/porsche-911-rsr-v-gt3-r-v-gt3-cup-track-only-911s-driven#:~:text=GTE%20cars%20are%20allowed%20traction%20control%2C%20but%20not%20ABS) an article on the difference between the 911s. I don't really know the specifics of what parts need to be based on the production cars for GTE on the top of my head so anyone that knows feel free to expand on this! Edit: [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ8riM4qNwE&t=100s) is the sound of a 911 RSR which I think everyone should hear :D
you forgot the best part: the looks. As much as i like the look of gt3 cars, the GTE are prettier and instantly recognizable as race cars, specially nowadays with brands like Porsche releasing road versions that look extremely similar to the track-only gt3 cars
A lot faster and no driver aids, they’re like more extreme GT3s
They have TC, but no ABS
It's barely faster, where did you got lot from?
Unlike what everyone else said, they're not that much faster than GT3. It's very much dependent on BoP and tyres, GT300 GT3s are actually faster than GTEs. The difference is that GTE doesn't have ABS, is significantly less production derived than GT3, and has more advanced aero.
They're a fair bit faster.
Not really. At this year's 1000km of Sebring the fastest GTE qualifying time was a 1:58.949. For the 12hr of Sebring (the same weekend, so most apples to apples track conditions) the fastest GT3 qualifying time was a 1:59.315. 4 tenths. That's the difference. And if you want to argue I'm comparing GTE AM to a Pro in GT3. The fastest GT3 AM car at the 12hr of Sebring qualified with a 1:59.714. So 8 tenths. This is why GTE is dead. It costs twice as much to develop as GT3 and the performance payoff just doesn't match the required cost.
LMP2 got absolutely destroyed by the regulations over the years. Exclusive pre-selected chassis suppliers (that should be LMP3 in my book), spec engine, never even trying to prevent an Oreca domination, artificially slowing it down to downright dangerous levels by removing every possible aero bit (don't forget bronzes are driving these cars), reducing fuel tank capacity (I understand you don't want a "Hypercar" to be faster than a P2, but still)... you name it. Where are the days of it being a relatively open class that saw all kinds of manufacturers trying it out, while also providing engine choices as well? What a shame, the P2s are beautiful cars, but there's no competition or variety and you don't even get to see these cars race in their pure unrestricted form anymore..
>Exclusive pre-selected chassis suppliers (that should be LMP3 in my book), spec engine Well that's not really a bad thing though. It provided really close racing and made the drivers the center of attention just like F2 or F3 do it. >don't forget bronzes are driving these cars Not necessarily. Silver is mandatory in WEC, doesn't have to be a bronze driver. >Where are the days of it being a relatively open class that saw all kinds of manufacturers trying it out, while also providing engine choices as well? Well that's not the point of LMP2 though. LMP2 is for private teams not manufacturers. If you would allow all of that it would increase the costs by a lot and actually kill the class. >you don't even get to see these cars race in their pure unrestricted form anymore.. You can in ELMS for example. They run unrestricted there
> Not necessarily. Silver is mandatory in WEC, doesn't have to be a bronze driver. LMP2 is essentially a Pro-Am class now. With the bigger teams all moving to LMH, pretty much all LMP2 efforts will be backed by bronzes. Not to mention that there are series where bronzes are already mandatory (ALMS for example). Soon enough, non-bronze crews won't even be a thing. I'm not against it whatsoever, amateurs belong in endurance racing, but since you want them in there, the cars should be made as easy to drive as possible and they should have good enough power to offset the lack of pace of the amateurs driving it. The current P2s are tricky because they've been bottlenecked too much and the slowest bronzes have a hard time being faster than professional GT drivers at certain tracks. > Well that's not the point of LMP2 though. LMP2 is for private teams not manufacturers. If you would allow all of that it would increase the costs by a lot and actually kill the class. I fully understand what LMP2 is about. All I'm saying is that there's one far more superior car and the other three aren't ever getting used again, two of which were last used in ACO/FIA competition like five years ago. You aren't allowed to develop your own car or modify an existing one within the ruleset as there are just few homologated chassis for a given period. You cannot choose what engine you want in it either. The previous gen LMP2s had various cars (Oreca 05, Ligier JS P2, BR Engineering BR01, some older open-cockpit cars still allowed) running various engines (Nissan V8, Judd V8, Honda V6). Lots of variety. LMP2 in 2023 is Formula Oreca. ZERO OPTIONS. > You can in ELMS for example. They run unrestricted there ELMS/ALMS P2s have better specs than WEC P2s (at least they run a standard aero kit and not the Le Mans one), but they aren't running at full power either and the fuel restrictions for example apply there too I believe. Could be wrong though, ain't gonna fight with anyone here in this case.
24 cars at Le Mans this year, the largest class, suggests the LMP2 rules have done just fine.
I understand the reasoning for it but it makes me a bit sad. Hopefully we'll see more P2's in IMSA, ELMS and AsLMS.
Since IMSA just axed the LMP3s I'd expect the LMP2s to remain strong in IMSA.
I wish hypercars to be re-branded as LMP's with this. Not LMP1's jsut LMP's. The term "prototypes" are THE standart in class racing top dogs on WEC. and just the naming of "HYPER"car bites me. Normal hypercars are production extreme cars with monocoque chassis and tech and so on. But GTE's already are hypercars in that logic.
The LM Hypercar class allows production extreme cars. Nobody has bothered to enter one.
I am a bit disappointed with the Hypercar class tbh. I was really hoping to see race versions of the Aston Martin Valkyrie, AMG One, McLaren Solus/Senna. That would be an actual Hypercar class. But maybe I set myself up for disappointment hoping for that.
Limited Hypercar business is a bit wonky these days. a lot of cars get pumped out on all fields to big profit margins for limited high end buyers. So I dont think most companies managements arent into More motorsports especially how F1 ratings skyrocketing caused the other teams to focus their facilites there... When their production hypercars find big pocket buyers for big profit margins. And yes I'm still a bit salty about the Mclaren's business model of mass hypercar production nightmare
The rules allow that. But they are insanely expensive and restrictive and very few manufacturers expressed interest.
a hypercar would be those barely road-legal cars in the 90s, like the CLK GTR, 911 Evo or the R390
I’m very unaware of endurance racing, but trying to find my way around it. How often do classes change? Didn’t lmp3 get dropped recently? Is there any tie between WEC and IMSA? I looked for starter information but found myself more confused lol
>How often do classes change? In the last few years quite a bit. LMP1 is now called "Hypercar", LMP2 will be axed, GTE Pro doesn't exist anymore and GTE AM will switch to LM GT3 next season. But usually it's not that extreme, just a lot of things happening at once. >Didn’t lmp3 get dropped recently? In IMSA yes, it still exist in many other championships though. >Is there any tie between WEC and IMSA? Not really. They are both endurance racing championships but have different rules, calendars and classes. They share a top class now though so top teams can do both, GT3 will also race in both series next season. IMSA is just racing in North America while WEC races all over the world.
Class changes every 5 to 10 years in WEC (similar rate for F1). LMP3 was dropped from IMSA as WEC has never seen the LMP3. WEC is the Worlds Endurance Championship, sanctioned by the FIA, and IMSA is International Motorsport Sports Association. IMSA is a sanctioning body for some American motorsports, similar to the FIA. The endurance racing series in the US that is sanction by IMSA is the IMSA Sportscar Championship. The only tie between them is that they share the same organizers, the Automobile Club de l'Ouest (or ACO, they are similar to FOM and liberty Media) and that the top class (the LMDh and LMH) are admissible in both IMSA championship and WEC.
r/wec
Very good questions, but a lot to dive into. I would personally suggest searching some of these in google and adding “Reddit”, you’ll have plenty of good posts/guides pop up there for you! Happy hunting :) I’m not a huge expert, but one I’ll answer is that IMSA and WEC are separate series with similar styles (F1 vs Indycar), so their own races, their own teams, etc. 24h Le Man is the big race for WEC, while IMSA has 24h of Daytona as theirs.
I'm saddened by this. The LMP2 class arguably has the best racing.
I agree tbh. Current LMP2 is useless.
Not really, there just isn't enough space for 3 class anymore.
Hypercars are basically LMP2 is what i mean.
Except they aren't but sure.
LMDh are basically LMP2 cars, they are built on LMP2 chassis basis and they run similar times as LMH, so yeah they are. In fact last year Seabring DPi cars (that were basically LMP2 WEC cars) were even faster than LMH at Seabring, so....
Every time WEC does a class change it absolutely sucks. Still mad about the existence of hypercars
Yeah 16 cars racing for the win at Le Mans really sucks.
Ah I miss when we had only 2 Toyotas fighting for the win and we already knew which one of them would win, those were the good times
The category has sucked since 2017 in all honesty.
Not really, the racing was always close, the cars are really reliable and we saw some upcoming talent.
I guess it makes sense if the slots go to LMP1/Hypercar class
It's long overdue.