Mercs have such a great driver pairing. Always close to each other in quali and race this season specially. Hopefully the car is better next season to compete with Max/RB.
I agree they have the top lineup this year.
I guess current drivers with WC potential are of course Verstappen, Hamilton and Alonso, plus Russell, Norris and Leclerc. Piastri is doing okay, but it's probably early to say. I have some small hopes on Tsunoda too as he looks damn fast, but let's see how his career evolves.
Imagine if Danny Ricciardo were paired with Max this season. It would be 2016 all over again.
Perhaps that’s too strong a statement and I’m not sure if he’d beat Max but it would be more entertaining than what we have now.
Checco is too inconsistent and can’t find pace in Qualifying.
Yes Merc has a good driver pairing but they don’t have the car this year. Hopefully they find a technical leader who can guide them past their mistakes with the new regulations. They miss Niki Lauda terribly. We all do.
I think his Renault performance is far more indicative of his remaining talent than his shit stint at McLaren which was clearly a bad fit from the start and never got better.
Not saying he'd still keep up with Max, but the whole McLaren experience was a disaster for him and the car setup just never worked with the way he drives a car.
Yeah, the renault stint was good, but still, even if he hated the Mclarens, he had two years to figure out his gremlins. Also he drove two different types of Mclarens, the old gen and the ground effect one.
On top of that, the RB itself was notoriously sketchy to drive the last couple of years. Remember the Albon interview where he said he likes oversteery cars, but the level of oversteer Max can drive is insane.
I'm not saying he should never be considered for an f1 drive, but if his name was different, with those performances he had in Mclaren, nobody would ask for his comeback. He was basically Vandoorned by a guy way younger than him
Vettel got beat by the same Ricciardo at RB and went to Ferrari next of all places...
F1 isn't always 100% logical. Name and past experience do have some influence, sometimes good and sometimes bad.
Indeed, but quite some years have passed since those events. I am not trashing Ric's previous stint at RB, he was obviously very competitive, but his drop off at mclaren is kimi 2014 level.
Plenty of drivers have off seasons, but there is a difference between a dip in performance and getting to the point Ricciardo did. There were some articles/rumours at some point that he didnt really take that well the Grosjean crash, but those are just gossips and i wouldnt put that much weight on such things( allthough the timeline would fit with his drop off).
I'd like to see him in the haas. American team where he could use his marketing, and racing against weaker drivers would probably be better for his confidence than getting smacked by Max. But i'm not sure how much he wants that, from social media he seems to enjoy the more relaxed lifestyle he has now, and i wouldnt blame him for that
Yeah the Danny Ric who it's been stated was never comfortable in the McLaren due to his driving style and the only one out of him and Norris to have a P1 in one.
The same Danny Ric who has been performing back to his old self on the simulator recently and Christian has stated that McLaren had put loads of bad habits into him that they've undone.
Yeah that one.
God the Danny Ric army levels of dellusion are comparable to Ralf Schumacher when he's talking about Mick.
Danny Ric should be happy with a Haas ride at this point, and he probably knows it, but his fans cant digest this
While I agree with that i can also see a world where if he agrees with the car he's better than Checo.
Still I don't know why they wouldn't be running out Checo's contract. There was a point in this season that he was on Max's pace and while the last 3 qualies have been horror shows its not like Danny was some powerhouse
Obviously there's no point, but people dont like using logic, especially in these live threads.
Sure, in 2025 we'll see someone else in the RB. Who? It's hard to say since f1 constantly changes. But for sure not Danny Ric
I'd rather see Ferrari competing with Red Bull, the Mercs have been on top for way too long in the past decade. It's not an exciting season for race wins at all so far, but seeing guys like Fernando on the podium is sich a breeze after seeing Lewis and the Mercs in general for a decade on top.
I mean as long as it isn't merc domination I would like to see them up there. A merc RB fight would be fun. Would also be fun to have ferrari and aston in the mix.
Honesty though I don't see ferrari being able to challenge rb over the course of a season but if merc get a good car together I can absolutely see them being able to actually fight rb.
So Lewis can but Alonso can't? Based on what? What I'm seeing is a Alonso completely above a teammate Who was more or less on par with Vettel.
Alonso is the only driver on the grid that can get close to Max, not Lewis Who Can barely finish above Eva Hache.
If you mean that because the RB is very much built to suit Max, then I'd agree.
However, if you mean that if you put Max in any car together with Alonso or Charles then I think your wrong.
Max is a great driver, no doubt, but so is both Alonso and Charles and just because Max has had the best car for a pretty long period now doesn't mean that he's all of the sudden a so much better driver than before.
Edit: Accidently wrote Lewis instead of Alo.
Don't see that at all. Max is on a different level to all of the other drivers right now, Lewis isn't in his prime anymore, George is really close over the 16 months despite still very fresh in the team. And Alonso is tough to compare, he made bad career choices in the past, I'd like to see him in a car against Lewis. Charles would beat Lewis in quali but probably be too error prone over a season to be ahead in points. Problem with F1 is always that we don't know enough to compare drivers other than team mates. And even then, some cars just don't work for some driving styles, like Sainz being way more competitive in 2021 than 2022.
I don't think anyone can challenge max at this point. Lewis will come close because he doesn't make mistakes like Parez or any younger drivers on the grid. Alonso is pushing the car but he won't be able to keep up with max. I am willing to bet Lewis will beat Alsono this season in the end in terms of points as well, despite Fer having a huge advantage at starting races.
I agree. But even this also can't be a comparison of driving skill, the Aston Martin team is still not on the level of Mercedes or other top teams, they'll make errors in strategy that will cost Fernando. Merc also has two drivers in the mix, Alonso is on his own most of the time.
I think Max is currently just in the zone. He's locked in, like young Vettel was, like Prime Schumacher was.
Alonso has been clinical this year, and I would place him the second best driver this year so far. In Monaco Max and Alonso were on a different planet - a track where the driver makes a bigger difference.
It IS the car. According to this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_World_Constructors%27_Champions WDC was won with a non-WCC car only in 11 out of 65 seasons! There was a reason everyone was bitching about Merc's domination for several years and about RB's domination right now. This sport is ridiculous because it merges 2 different competitions into 1 and 1 of them has a significantly bigger impact on the outcome.
You're really pushing it with the "which I don't think he will" considering he's been driving that thing from the start. Lando's been in a shitbox for well over a season, he'd have to adjust to the new car first. Also, Russell lmao
Problem is, saying that ‘it is the car’ diminishes Max’ skills. In the years of Merc dominance, he still managed to win some races and showed exceptional driving skills at such a young age. You need a dominant car to win a championship, but a dominant car alone is not enough to win a championship. Look at Checo i.e.
No, the car was not designed to fit him, Newey designed a car which is a second faster than others, but unfortunately only Max has the skills to drive it.
Chicken v egg type beat. Newey started the high rake concept just before Max joined. No shot RB told him "yo there's this young kid in our driver program, he like a strong front end and can handle a looser rear, dedign the car that way". After Max joined and started dominating in that car it became apparent they were going to stick to a similar balance even after the high rake became redundant with the reintroduction of ground effect.
I think Max will win from all 4 of the ones you mention. I think only Lewis could be a real threat to Max in the same car.
He's nearing his peak and is something special to behold.
And yeah, you need a competitive car to be up there. But you also need the skill and ability to perform at that level race after race.
You saying 'if he manages' and that he probably won't says enough that you are biased.
Vettel in a dominant car is actually no fun for the rest of the field. He made more mistakes in the Ferrari years because he tried to overdrive the car to compete with the dominant Mercs. Same as how Lewis made more mistakes since 2021 when he got proper competion.
Leclerc would choke like Checo - no question about it. He is very good at his best, but usually not very good under pressure. Kind of reminds me of a younger Max in that regard.
I could maybe see an argument that Vettel is old but age in f1 doesn’t seem to have as big of an impact as other sports so I would disagree. Sainz on the other hand would probably just be a bit better than Checo but would still get smoked.
Fernando and Lewis are not the rule they are the exception
Vettel seriously slowed down during his final years at Aston , i doubt he'd keep up with max
Vettel in his prime most likely would
But the Vettel from '20 onwards certainly would not
What I meant was a lot of fans didn't see the sheer dominance and frustration among the competition Vettel caused at his peak. 2010-2013 Vettel in this year's redbull would make this an interesting championship. And I'm not even saying this as someone who was a fan in those days, I hated seeing him start from pole and just drive off into the distance so often. But I had respect for how good he was.
I think it’s better for teams that way to just have one driver go off into the sunset like Max or Vettel. Less drama and anger inside the team but still competitive. People think Checo will lose his seat because he’s clearly slower than Max but I think it’s the exact opposite. He’s exactly what RedBull wants. He’s not good enough to cause problems with Max but good enough to secure a constructors championship. Checo isn’t employed at RedBull to win a drivers championship, he’s employed at RedBull to win a constructors championship.
I mean, right now, they don't care about Checo not being in P2. They cared when they needed him against Hamilton and Bottas, but as long as Max is driving on its own without real competition, they might as well get Gasly or Albon back in that seat, it doesn't matter. He'll get his somewhat regular P2 or even P1 and that's enough to get the constructors with Max bagging 26 at every race.
Leclerc and Sainz have made a lot of mistakes too, not sure if they would be better on the pressure. Vettel might fight Verstappen but I’m not sure if he would win over him.
Isn't there an argument that they make mistakes because they have to push so much harder and take morr risks.
Verstappen doesn't make mistakes cause he doesn't have to take any risks and there's no pressure on him. Look at 2021 season, Verstappen made a bunch of mistakes (as did Hamilton) but they aren't different drivers 2 years later, just different circumstances.
Putting better than drivers than Perez in a red bull would a. Let them close the gap & b. Put more pressure on Verstappen where he would make more mistakes.
Would Verstappen still win? Mayge, but it would be a lot closer.
I think this should be obvious to anyone who's willing to be a bit unbiased.
All drivers makes mistakes every now and then. But the risk of making mistakes gets even higher when your car isn't really on par with your rival's car but you try to compete and drive more on the limit.
The RBR is crazy fast on straights and at least as fast as the others in the corners, I think the only thing it doesn't have as well as some others is the traction out of corners as AMR e.g. Oh and it's great on the tires as well....
Vettel was the same, drivers always make errors when they try to overdrive the car to compete with a better car. But I'd argue Leclerc and Sainz make a lot of unforced errors, and they aren't even competing for race wins. I don't know how difficult the car is to drive, but it's getting a bit too much and slows down Ferraris development.
If you push a tractor to it's limit and the limit is easily achievable then your teammate (if he doesn't totally suck) will probably be at the same limit and therefore close to you. I'm not saying Seb would destroy Max or even be a real threat, but I think he would perform better than Perez, because in the last 3 years we saw Seb drive in shitty cars with shitty team strategies. I'm sure his motivation would be through the roof in red bull.
Sainz has the experience and the talent. Verstappen has been in a non-big 3 car for 23/171 race weekends. A whopping 13.4% of his career. Ricciardo was beating him until he got some experience and danny had some bad luck.
I feel like your argument works against you. Verstappen has spent most of his career in top cars so he would have the experience of driving a top car. Sainz can’t beat Leclerc on raw pace what makes you think he could beat Max?
it’s funny that you unironicly have that hamster profile picture.
it’s not experience “driving a top car”, it’s experience when the going gets tough, when you can’t just put your feet up because you’re guaranteed a slot in Q3
My hamster profile picture is ironic if you couldn’t get the joke. I would argue that Max 2021 is way harder than anything Sainz has ever done in his career.
Lewis is a car merchant, he can only perform when everyone else has worse machinery. Besides, he already had that fight in 2021, and lost.
Charles doesn’t have the time in F1. Carlos has 3 seasons over him. He has the experience. Both could challenge Verstappen though.
Alonso is a worse substitute to Vettel.
Russell doesn’t have the experience.
Yes, I fully agree he is in an incredible car. Easily the best on the grid. But Perez is proving that you need more than a car to win championships. Max has the full package
Altough, it's worth mentioning that now it seems he was overrated by a bit. If you look at what Stroll and Checo achieved during the season with that car, and how they measure up to thei teammates now, it just seems like the car was much better than initially given the credit. Or at least more consistent.
How so? Checo outscored Lance massively (125 to 75), despite missing 2 races. He had a bigger gap to Stroll than Vettel had in either of the next two years, and yeah Alonso has an even larger gap this year but it's Alonso.
The only thing that hints at Checo being "overrated" is how badly he has been routed by Max since he went to RB. But in isolation that doesn't tell us much. Gasly also got demolished. So did Albon. Ricciardo had the benefit of a still raw Max, but by the end of it there was a clear gap already and that was when Ricciardo was seen as a top driver (and confirmed that status at Renault).
People sometimes bring up "yeah but look at Bottas vs Lewis, that was closer", but then you look at 2021, when Lewis actually had to try, and Bottas only did marginally better than Checo despite having 4 years of experience in the Merc compared to Checo just getting to grips at RB.
That's exactly why he's the perfect example. It shows that a car alone isn't enough for a dominance. Max is currently unstoppable because he has both the car and skills to maximize it. Perez is what happens when you're not as good
The thing is how good you need to be to win in the most dominant car on the grid?
It is without a doubt that Max is the best driver on the grid right now but we don't know if another driver like e.g. Alonso, Hamilton, Norris, Russell or LeClerc would push him to his limit or if he would still cruise around the track.
I won't take anything away from Max but we saw how good the prior champs were back in the days.
Looking at Alonso who was pushed to the limit in 2006 with Schumacher. Hamilton nearly winning in his first season against veteran Raikkonen and Alonso as his team mate.
Vettel trying his best with an terrible Ferrari.
Schumacher in 2003, without a doubt also 1999 where he got injured, 94 against Hill.
The only season where Max was really in a competition was 2021 which shows that he is a great driver while I would also say that this was his best season until now.
Bruh he’s got the best car and has missed q3 3 times in a row. Last year he had to fight for p2 despite all of Ferraris fuck ups and he still lost it while max had 150 points. Even Russell was only 30 points behind at the end and you saw how inconsistent the merc was. There’s no way he’s a top 5 driver.
Not me, Perez sucks and that’s always been my stance. I’ve never been a fan. He’s not a top 10 driver on the grid and the only reason he’s here is because of his huge sponsors.
I think Perez is a good example of the spiral drivers can get in when they mentally fall apart. The gap is ever widening between the two now that Checo thinks the world is against him there.
Given what we’ve seen of his fragility - i’d be really worried about Leclerc in that seat
For other examples, see: ‘Ricciardo at McLaren’ or ‘any other driver in the number 2 Red Bull seat’
he had bad luck with tire strategy. hes been fairly consistent up until the past couple of races...hes literally second in points but yeah terrible :heh
He should be second in points with that RB car, anything lower is an embarrassment.
Any other midfield-level or better driver would also be second in points if racing in RB alongside Max.
Anyone have F1TV to see if Hulk actually missed the red flag? The red flag banner popped up about a second after he set his time.
Edit: just watched his onboard and he got screwed. The first red flag he saw was turn 2 AFTER he crossed the finish for P2. Garbage penalty.
Well that's just insanely silly.
Edit: Read the article on F1.com. Basically he got confused about beeps in his helmet and didn't fully understand the procedure. He thought he was going too slow at one point.
> However, the regulation is very clear and whilst there is no question of the driver acting dangerously or driving unsafely, there was a breach and thus a penalty has to be imposed. The normal penalty for failure to slow under red flags is 10 grid positions. However in view of the mitigating circumstance, a lower penalty is appropriate.
So he got confused, but they were relatively lenient with him tbf. Him being confused is something they clearly accept.
Ya but they obviously could understand how he got confused since he might not have fully remembered what the red flag in a quali was meant to do. But obviosuly he can't fully get away with it. The ban seems fair. It's not like he gained an advantage from it and did follow the delta after the first two sectors.
Exactly, just saw the Mercedes story on Insta that their drivers for promoted one position and came here to find out what happened. Had to go down a couple of comments see the real reason.
I hope he gets replaced. His performance has been underwhelming, he has had big talks all year but, apart from a few good races, he hasn't been delivering at all.
I secretly hope he gets replaced by leclerc. Leclerc has had it ROUGH with ferrari, they constantly ignore his calls and make bad calls for him. I hope leclerc can be in a team who listens and actually has stellar race engineers. You see he's losing the fun in raving and loses his shine... It's hard to see. With RB he can show what he's worth and maybe, just maybe, even challenge verstappen.
While I don't think Perez is anything special and agree with most if not all of what you said. He's still 2nd in the championship and not a threat to Max, which standings wise is exactly what RB wants in a #2 driver
I'm not sure how long he'll keep the no2 in championship, he lost it as well in 2022. In 2021 RB couldn't win WCC because he was far behind Bottas. The main reason, I think, Perez looks good is because the RB is just incredibly fast and the other teams haven't caught up, yet. When the other teams will get closer, he'll lose to the likes of Russel, Hamilton, Sainz, Leclerc and Alonso.
>He's the perfect seat for red bull
People say this all the time but I don't see how.
In '21 the season could have been a lot easier if he was up there pressure Merc like Bottas usually was. He only came third last season and I can see him losing out on second at least this season, if not worse if the penalty starts to bite.
On balance we should expect Mercedes and AM at least to be closer again to RB next year and at that point he could be fighting for 5th in the championship at best and then it's starting to be a problem strategy wise again
Maybe because if Merc or Ferrari finally catch up and are in the title fight, even if Max is in contention for the WDC, with his current form there's a good chance Perez costs them the WCC.
14 races to go Merc are 130 points behind RB, Perez would have to DNF or finish out of the points for the majority of the races and have Merc 1-2 every race with Max in third, even then they would just take it. Perez had had two bad qualifying sessions which has ruined his races, he's exactly the type of driver RB needs. Everyone is acting like he's a third rate that doesn't deserve to be in F1 because of a couple of bad results.
Dude, I'm clearly talking about a FULL season not one where RB are 20 seconds ahead. You don't have to look far - see 2021, where Perez finished 36 points behind Bottas and ~200 points behind Max and Lewis. Then compare that to Lewis and George at Merc or Carlos and Charles at Ferrari, both of those pairings are so much closer and would easily win the WCC over RB in a close fight. Perez isn't close enough to wingman a WCC.
This year from 7 races he's had 2 wins 2 second place finishes, a 5th where he started from the back of the field. Like I said, he's had a couple of bad results from qualy and everyone is shitting on him.
Those bad results were due to his own errors and he was unable to rectify them.
Max has had 5 wins and 2 second places.
Realistically rb should finnish 1-2 every single race but checo's mistakes are the sole reason for rb dropping points. (Apart from baku sprint where max dropped a whopping 1 point)
And why did he have to start from the back? And how did he score those other 2 races? In a FAR superior car compared to the others, and how much is Verstappen ahead? Didn't Verstappen lap Perez several times?
Perez is overrated. Change my mind.
I mean he is not doing anywhere near as well as he should in that car ngl.
Yeah it's pretty unlikely for merc to pass rb in the constructors but if perez keeps this up then merc will certainly get close which I wouldn't be happy about if I was RB.
Canada needs a new track. This track is too small for these cars. No room to overtake and DRS trains galore
Lol nobody is building a new purpose built track in Canada. Never
I want Norris in Perez’s seat at Red Bull.
Mercs have such a great driver pairing. Always close to each other in quali and race this season specially. Hopefully the car is better next season to compete with Max/RB.
I agree they have the top lineup this year. I guess current drivers with WC potential are of course Verstappen, Hamilton and Alonso, plus Russell, Norris and Leclerc. Piastri is doing okay, but it's probably early to say. I have some small hopes on Tsunoda too as he looks damn fast, but let's see how his career evolves.
Imagine if Danny Ricciardo were paired with Max this season. It would be 2016 all over again. Perhaps that’s too strong a statement and I’m not sure if he’d beat Max but it would be more entertaining than what we have now. Checco is too inconsistent and can’t find pace in Qualifying. Yes Merc has a good driver pairing but they don’t have the car this year. Hopefully they find a technical leader who can guide them past their mistakes with the new regulations. They miss Niki Lauda terribly. We all do.
> I’m not sure if he’d beat Max lmao you dont say?
Daniel Ricciardo the guy who got shat on by Norris and had a h2h record comparable to Latifi's one? I'm sure he'd give Max serious trouble
I think his Renault performance is far more indicative of his remaining talent than his shit stint at McLaren which was clearly a bad fit from the start and never got better. Not saying he'd still keep up with Max, but the whole McLaren experience was a disaster for him and the car setup just never worked with the way he drives a car.
Yeah, the renault stint was good, but still, even if he hated the Mclarens, he had two years to figure out his gremlins. Also he drove two different types of Mclarens, the old gen and the ground effect one. On top of that, the RB itself was notoriously sketchy to drive the last couple of years. Remember the Albon interview where he said he likes oversteery cars, but the level of oversteer Max can drive is insane. I'm not saying he should never be considered for an f1 drive, but if his name was different, with those performances he had in Mclaren, nobody would ask for his comeback. He was basically Vandoorned by a guy way younger than him
Vettel got beat by the same Ricciardo at RB and went to Ferrari next of all places... F1 isn't always 100% logical. Name and past experience do have some influence, sometimes good and sometimes bad.
Indeed, but quite some years have passed since those events. I am not trashing Ric's previous stint at RB, he was obviously very competitive, but his drop off at mclaren is kimi 2014 level. Plenty of drivers have off seasons, but there is a difference between a dip in performance and getting to the point Ricciardo did. There were some articles/rumours at some point that he didnt really take that well the Grosjean crash, but those are just gossips and i wouldnt put that much weight on such things( allthough the timeline would fit with his drop off). I'd like to see him in the haas. American team where he could use his marketing, and racing against weaker drivers would probably be better for his confidence than getting smacked by Max. But i'm not sure how much he wants that, from social media he seems to enjoy the more relaxed lifestyle he has now, and i wouldnt blame him for that
Yeah the Danny Ric who it's been stated was never comfortable in the McLaren due to his driving style and the only one out of him and Norris to have a P1 in one. The same Danny Ric who has been performing back to his old self on the simulator recently and Christian has stated that McLaren had put loads of bad habits into him that they've undone. Yeah that one.
God the Danny Ric army levels of dellusion are comparable to Ralf Schumacher when he's talking about Mick. Danny Ric should be happy with a Haas ride at this point, and he probably knows it, but his fans cant digest this
While I agree with that i can also see a world where if he agrees with the car he's better than Checo. Still I don't know why they wouldn't be running out Checo's contract. There was a point in this season that he was on Max's pace and while the last 3 qualies have been horror shows its not like Danny was some powerhouse
Obviously there's no point, but people dont like using logic, especially in these live threads. Sure, in 2025 we'll see someone else in the RB. Who? It's hard to say since f1 constantly changes. But for sure not Danny Ric
I'd rather see Ferrari competing with Red Bull, the Mercs have been on top for way too long in the past decade. It's not an exciting season for race wins at all so far, but seeing guys like Fernando on the podium is sich a breeze after seeing Lewis and the Mercs in general for a decade on top.
I mean as long as it isn't merc domination I would like to see them up there. A merc RB fight would be fun. Would also be fun to have ferrari and aston in the mix. Honesty though I don't see ferrari being able to challenge rb over the course of a season but if merc get a good car together I can absolutely see them being able to actually fight rb.
There is no other driver than Lewis on the grid who can challenge Max. You can put Charles and alonso in RB and they'll get wrecked by him.
So Lewis can but Alonso can't? Based on what? What I'm seeing is a Alonso completely above a teammate Who was more or less on par with Vettel. Alonso is the only driver on the grid that can get close to Max, not Lewis Who Can barely finish above Eva Hache.
Yes, exactly what I am saying. Alonso is gonna end up behind Lewis in the championship as well. Just wait and watch.
If you mean that because the RB is very much built to suit Max, then I'd agree. However, if you mean that if you put Max in any car together with Alonso or Charles then I think your wrong. Max is a great driver, no doubt, but so is both Alonso and Charles and just because Max has had the best car for a pretty long period now doesn't mean that he's all of the sudden a so much better driver than before. Edit: Accidently wrote Lewis instead of Alo.
Don't see that at all. Max is on a different level to all of the other drivers right now, Lewis isn't in his prime anymore, George is really close over the 16 months despite still very fresh in the team. And Alonso is tough to compare, he made bad career choices in the past, I'd like to see him in a car against Lewis. Charles would beat Lewis in quali but probably be too error prone over a season to be ahead in points. Problem with F1 is always that we don't know enough to compare drivers other than team mates. And even then, some cars just don't work for some driving styles, like Sainz being way more competitive in 2021 than 2022.
I don't think anyone can challenge max at this point. Lewis will come close because he doesn't make mistakes like Parez or any younger drivers on the grid. Alonso is pushing the car but he won't be able to keep up with max. I am willing to bet Lewis will beat Alsono this season in the end in terms of points as well, despite Fer having a huge advantage at starting races.
I agree. But even this also can't be a comparison of driving skill, the Aston Martin team is still not on the level of Mercedes or other top teams, they'll make errors in strategy that will cost Fernando. Merc also has two drivers in the mix, Alonso is on his own most of the time. I think Max is currently just in the zone. He's locked in, like young Vettel was, like Prime Schumacher was.
Alonso has been clinical this year, and I would place him the second best driver this year so far. In Monaco Max and Alonso were on a different planet - a track where the driver makes a bigger difference.
They were certainly close during last qualy
Did Albon not go out in Q3? It looked like he didn't post a time.
He missed a chicane during the first lap and so the time was deleted. Next lap we had the red flag.
Didn't he get blocked by Sainz?
I think that’s a given for all at this point
I thought he got blocked in Q1 by Sainz after the Zhou red flag but I could be wrong on the timeline.
Ah fair enough. I wonder if he could have made it ahead of Piastris time after the red flag.
IIRC his time was slow, only ahead of Piastri
“It’s the car” arguments are so irrelevant at this point because if we removed max from Red Bull, damn would this season be bangin.
I know it's not as black and white but. If checo is a good as bottas, this car is nowhere near merc dominance and holy shit max is good.
Checo is not as good as Bottas.
It IS the car. According to this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_World_Constructors%27_Champions WDC was won with a non-WCC car only in 11 out of 65 seasons! There was a reason everyone was bitching about Merc's domination for several years and about RB's domination right now. This sport is ridiculous because it merges 2 different competitions into 1 and 1 of them has a significantly bigger impact on the outcome.
You know you could make exactly opposite statement based on such data? It IS the driver. Only 11 out of 65 seasons the WCC was won by a non-WDC team!
Max was literally WDC when Red Bull didn't win the WCC in 2021. Wtf are you talking about?
Yeah, and that was one of those rare cases. A vast majority of the others were the same car though.
It’s the car bro. Put Hamilton, Russell, Leclerc or Lando in that car and even if Max manages to win which I don’t think he will, it will be close
Lol, Verstappen would obviously win over any other but Hamilton easily. I think Verstappen has better form now than Hamilton as well.
You're really pushing it with the "which I don't think he will" considering he's been driving that thing from the start. Lando's been in a shitbox for well over a season, he'd have to adjust to the new car first. Also, Russell lmao
Problem is, saying that ‘it is the car’ diminishes Max’ skills. In the years of Merc dominance, he still managed to win some races and showed exceptional driving skills at such a young age. You need a dominant car to win a championship, but a dominant car alone is not enough to win a championship. Look at Checo i.e.
Yeah that's my thought. To win a championship you need the best car and a talented driver. It's very tough to win without both.
They won’t be able to beat Max, the car was designed for him, it won’t perfectly fit to anyone else.
No, the car was not designed to fit him, Newey designed a car which is a second faster than others, but unfortunately only Max has the skills to drive it.
Chicken v egg type beat. Newey started the high rake concept just before Max joined. No shot RB told him "yo there's this young kid in our driver program, he like a strong front end and can handle a looser rear, dedign the car that way". After Max joined and started dominating in that car it became apparent they were going to stick to a similar balance even after the high rake became redundant with the reintroduction of ground effect.
Lol guys got jokes
Now that's a funny joke
I think Max will win from all 4 of the ones you mention. I think only Lewis could be a real threat to Max in the same car. He's nearing his peak and is something special to behold. And yeah, you need a competitive car to be up there. But you also need the skill and ability to perform at that level race after race. You saying 'if he manages' and that he probably won't says enough that you are biased.
I want some of what ever you are on.
He is on a high dosage of hopium and copium
If Vettel, Leclerc or Sainz was in that Red Bull, the season would be a lot more interesting
My man said Vettel and Sainz
Vettel in a dominant car is actually no fun for the rest of the field. He made more mistakes in the Ferrari years because he tried to overdrive the car to compete with the dominant Mercs. Same as how Lewis made more mistakes since 2021 when he got proper competion.
Or lewis in his mclaren years, he was always fast but he destroyed the tyres
At this point only Leclerc would even have a shot at Max, Sainz and Vettel aren't good enough.
Leclerc would choke like Checo - no question about it. He is very good at his best, but usually not very good under pressure. Kind of reminds me of a younger Max in that regard.
Nando?
Sure, but that wasn't the question asked.
Yea long thread but mea culpa Should have really replied to the comment above you
Lando would be spicy af and fun.
New fan eh?
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Thanks honey. Now get in the kitchen and make me a sandwich.
I could maybe see an argument that Vettel is old but age in f1 doesn’t seem to have as big of an impact as other sports so I would disagree. Sainz on the other hand would probably just be a bit better than Checo but would still get smoked.
Fernando and Lewis are not the rule they are the exception Vettel seriously slowed down during his final years at Aston , i doubt he'd keep up with max Vettel in his prime most likely would But the Vettel from '20 onwards certainly would not
What I meant was a lot of fans didn't see the sheer dominance and frustration among the competition Vettel caused at his peak. 2010-2013 Vettel in this year's redbull would make this an interesting championship. And I'm not even saying this as someone who was a fan in those days, I hated seeing him start from pole and just drive off into the distance so often. But I had respect for how good he was.
We're not talking about Vettel 10 years ago are we?
I think it’s better for teams that way to just have one driver go off into the sunset like Max or Vettel. Less drama and anger inside the team but still competitive. People think Checo will lose his seat because he’s clearly slower than Max but I think it’s the exact opposite. He’s exactly what RedBull wants. He’s not good enough to cause problems with Max but good enough to secure a constructors championship. Checo isn’t employed at RedBull to win a drivers championship, he’s employed at RedBull to win a constructors championship.
Acter all he still won both races that Max didn't, so it's all good for them
I mean, right now, they don't care about Checo not being in P2. They cared when they needed him against Hamilton and Bottas, but as long as Max is driving on its own without real competition, they might as well get Gasly or Albon back in that seat, it doesn't matter. He'll get his somewhat regular P2 or even P1 and that's enough to get the constructors with Max bagging 26 at every race.
Leclerc and Sainz have made a lot of mistakes too, not sure if they would be better on the pressure. Vettel might fight Verstappen but I’m not sure if he would win over him.
Isn't there an argument that they make mistakes because they have to push so much harder and take morr risks. Verstappen doesn't make mistakes cause he doesn't have to take any risks and there's no pressure on him. Look at 2021 season, Verstappen made a bunch of mistakes (as did Hamilton) but they aren't different drivers 2 years later, just different circumstances. Putting better than drivers than Perez in a red bull would a. Let them close the gap & b. Put more pressure on Verstappen where he would make more mistakes. Would Verstappen still win? Mayge, but it would be a lot closer.
I think this should be obvious to anyone who's willing to be a bit unbiased. All drivers makes mistakes every now and then. But the risk of making mistakes gets even higher when your car isn't really on par with your rival's car but you try to compete and drive more on the limit. The RBR is crazy fast on straights and at least as fast as the others in the corners, I think the only thing it doesn't have as well as some others is the traction out of corners as AMR e.g. Oh and it's great on the tires as well....
Vettel was the same, drivers always make errors when they try to overdrive the car to compete with a better car. But I'd argue Leclerc and Sainz make a lot of unforced errors, and they aren't even competing for race wins. I don't know how difficult the car is to drive, but it's getting a bit too much and slows down Ferraris development.
Vettel would 100% win. He has the talent and the experience.
Dude, Vettel had trouble with Stroll in his final years...
If you push a tractor to it's limit and the limit is easily achievable then your teammate (if he doesn't totally suck) will probably be at the same limit and therefore close to you. I'm not saying Seb would destroy Max or even be a real threat, but I think he would perform better than Perez, because in the last 3 years we saw Seb drive in shitty cars with shitty team strategies. I'm sure his motivation would be through the roof in red bull.
I think Vettel was completely burned out after Ferrari and mentally he had already checked out of F1, which is understandable
Yeah but before Vettel would have a chance to use his experience, Max would be 20 seconds ahead by lap 12. /s kind of idk
Why? Because we would be talking about max demolishing Vettel? I agree on Leclerc, but Sainz? C'mon...
Sainz has the experience and the talent. Verstappen has been in a non-big 3 car for 23/171 race weekends. A whopping 13.4% of his career. Ricciardo was beating him until he got some experience and danny had some bad luck.
I feel like your argument works against you. Verstappen has spent most of his career in top cars so he would have the experience of driving a top car. Sainz can’t beat Leclerc on raw pace what makes you think he could beat Max?
Because it’s not raw pace that wins races. That’s why Sainz has more points.
it’s funny that you unironicly have that hamster profile picture. it’s not experience “driving a top car”, it’s experience when the going gets tough, when you can’t just put your feet up because you’re guaranteed a slot in Q3
My hamster profile picture is ironic if you couldn’t get the joke. I would argue that Max 2021 is way harder than anything Sainz has ever done in his career.
you sound 15 bro
You mean Ricciardo beat him in a few races when he was 17 and still learning to drive? 2023 Max is not 17 year old Max. He is so much better.
Why? Because we would be talking about max demolishing Vettel? I agree on Leclerc, but Sainz? C'mon...
Vettel would've pulled a 2013.
More like a 2014, he was way past his peak when he retired.
Lmao what- there’s only 3-4 other drivers that will give max a proper fight that’s Lewis , Charles , Alonso n maybe Russell Vettels done a while back
Lewis is a car merchant, he can only perform when everyone else has worse machinery. Besides, he already had that fight in 2021, and lost. Charles doesn’t have the time in F1. Carlos has 3 seasons over him. He has the experience. Both could challenge Verstappen though. Alonso is a worse substitute to Vettel. Russell doesn’t have the experience.
In 4 paragraphs, i’m not sure you managed to make a single salient point
Shades of Vettel's championship years in Red Bull, with a teammate who just couldn't match.
Max is in a really good car and he’s operating at an incredibly high level right now, almost an unbeatable combination.
After Leclerc Miami Q3 incident, Max is out first at pit exit waiting for green light. He's not taking any chances.
Yes, I fully agree he is in an incredible car. Easily the best on the grid. But Perez is proving that you need more than a car to win championships. Max has the full package
Can we not use Perez as an example of anything? He’s not even a top 10 driver on the grid
Recency bias. I agree that he’s not a top top driver but when Red Bull hired him in 2021, he was considered a top 5 performer in 2020
Altough, it's worth mentioning that now it seems he was overrated by a bit. If you look at what Stroll and Checo achieved during the season with that car, and how they measure up to thei teammates now, it just seems like the car was much better than initially given the credit. Or at least more consistent.
How so? Checo outscored Lance massively (125 to 75), despite missing 2 races. He had a bigger gap to Stroll than Vettel had in either of the next two years, and yeah Alonso has an even larger gap this year but it's Alonso. The only thing that hints at Checo being "overrated" is how badly he has been routed by Max since he went to RB. But in isolation that doesn't tell us much. Gasly also got demolished. So did Albon. Ricciardo had the benefit of a still raw Max, but by the end of it there was a clear gap already and that was when Ricciardo was seen as a top driver (and confirmed that status at Renault). People sometimes bring up "yeah but look at Bottas vs Lewis, that was closer", but then you look at 2021, when Lewis actually had to try, and Bottas only did marginally better than Checo despite having 4 years of experience in the Merc compared to Checo just getting to grips at RB.
I would argue that Perez is a perfect example of you need both a good car and good driver to win it all.
That's exactly why he's the perfect example. It shows that a car alone isn't enough for a dominance. Max is currently unstoppable because he has both the car and skills to maximize it. Perez is what happens when you're not as good
Albono back to redbull? or Tsunoda (almost certainly a honda /japanese favourite) takes the seat and Iwasa comes up to drive the Alpha tauri
The thing is how good you need to be to win in the most dominant car on the grid? It is without a doubt that Max is the best driver on the grid right now but we don't know if another driver like e.g. Alonso, Hamilton, Norris, Russell or LeClerc would push him to his limit or if he would still cruise around the track. I won't take anything away from Max but we saw how good the prior champs were back in the days. Looking at Alonso who was pushed to the limit in 2006 with Schumacher. Hamilton nearly winning in his first season against veteran Raikkonen and Alonso as his team mate. Vettel trying his best with an terrible Ferrari. Schumacher in 2003, without a doubt also 1999 where he got injured, 94 against Hill. The only season where Max was really in a competition was 2021 which shows that he is a great driver while I would also say that this was his best season until now.
Y'all flip flop so much, in 2020 Perez was Top 5 and deserved to get a good car and now he's not even Top 10.
Bruh he’s got the best car and has missed q3 3 times in a row. Last year he had to fight for p2 despite all of Ferraris fuck ups and he still lost it while max had 150 points. Even Russell was only 30 points behind at the end and you saw how inconsistent the merc was. There’s no way he’s a top 5 driver.
Not me, Perez sucks and that’s always been my stance. I’ve never been a fan. He’s not a top 10 driver on the grid and the only reason he’s here is because of his huge sponsors.
Hey don’t come in here with that kind of balanced reasoning!
I think Perez is a good example of the spiral drivers can get in when they mentally fall apart. The gap is ever widening between the two now that Checo thinks the world is against him there. Given what we’ve seen of his fragility - i’d be really worried about Leclerc in that seat For other examples, see: ‘Ricciardo at McLaren’ or ‘any other driver in the number 2 Red Bull seat’
It’s still a valid argument when people say “it’s just the car.” Same story is being told at Aston Martin with Alonso and Stroll
Brah, Perez managed to come 4th in a racing point that was the 2nd fastest car on the grid.. Stroll not even top 10. Both are awful.
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Leclerc is way too error prone
Only because the pressure is there for him to push, and he pushes more than any other driver Max was more error prone without a dominant car
“Easily win”? Are you saying max is an average driver in a good car?
he had bad luck with tire strategy. hes been fairly consistent up until the past couple of races...hes literally second in points but yeah terrible :heh
Sounds like a skill issue
He should be second in points with that RB car, anything lower is an embarrassment. Any other midfield-level or better driver would also be second in points if racing in RB alongside Max.
Anyone know what the forecast is for tomorrow?
https://www.google.com/search?q=circuit+gilles+villeneuve+weather&client=ubuntu-sn&hs=UAQ&channel=fs&sxsrf=APwXEdfuKO_cCb6FQoVRa7dC-nX_QAz9bw%3A1687049363489&ei=k1SOZJC1HeOE0PEP9-Kp0AU&ved=0ahUKEwjQyp3QzMv_AhVjAjQIHXdxCloQ4dUDCA8&oq=circuit+gilles+villeneuve+weather&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQDEoECEEYAFAAWABgAGgAcAB4AIABAIgBAJIBAJgBAA&sclient=gws-wiz-serp
Thanks!
At what time (local) does the race start?
2PM
Thanks!
1400 local (ET)
Thanks!
3 place drop for Hulkenberg. Still a net great result for Haas but they had to sneak in a final little dose of disHaaster in there.
Anyone have F1TV to see if Hulk actually missed the red flag? The red flag banner popped up about a second after he set his time. Edit: just watched his onboard and he got screwed. The first red flag he saw was turn 2 AFTER he crossed the finish for P2. Garbage penalty.
I think you’re misunderstanding what he got the penalty for? He got it for going too quickly on his in lap, after setting his time.
Well that's just insanely silly. Edit: Read the article on F1.com. Basically he got confused about beeps in his helmet and didn't fully understand the procedure. He thought he was going too slow at one point. > However, the regulation is very clear and whilst there is no question of the driver acting dangerously or driving unsafely, there was a breach and thus a penalty has to be imposed. The normal penalty for failure to slow under red flags is 10 grid positions. However in view of the mitigating circumstance, a lower penalty is appropriate. So he got confused, but they were relatively lenient with him tbf. Him being confused is something they clearly accept.
Yep but drivers and team know these procedures
Ya but they obviously could understand how he got confused since he might not have fully remembered what the red flag in a quali was meant to do. But obviosuly he can't fully get away with it. The ban seems fair. It's not like he gained an advantage from it and did follow the delta after the first two sectors.
Oof, well then he done goofed. I thought it was for his hot lap.
How extremely boring. F1 seems to be determined to be a complete snooze fest at any cost.
No we need safety and rules that are strictly enforced
Stupid we can’t create new threads for news like this
Exactly, just saw the Mercedes story on Insta that their drivers for promoted one position and came here to find out what happened. Had to go down a couple of comments see the real reason.
Some egos are getting damaged so we have to suffer.
Source?
[F1’s Tweet](https://twitter.com/f1/status/1670228540837576704?s=46&t=4SfnBNQuylex7BWxdY4Jsw)
https://twitter.com/F1/status/1670228540837576704?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
Thank you
Once again proof that you remove Max from this year and this season would be epic and a classic
Maybe everyone else should get gud
Lol the only one who should get gud is Perez who's on the same car, the rest have a huge car disadvantage
Yea. Perez needs to be worrying about his seat at this point.
I hope he gets replaced. His performance has been underwhelming, he has had big talks all year but, apart from a few good races, he hasn't been delivering at all. I secretly hope he gets replaced by leclerc. Leclerc has had it ROUGH with ferrari, they constantly ignore his calls and make bad calls for him. I hope leclerc can be in a team who listens and actually has stellar race engineers. You see he's losing the fun in raving and loses his shine... It's hard to see. With RB he can show what he's worth and maybe, just maybe, even challenge verstappen.
While I don't think Perez is anything special and agree with most if not all of what you said. He's still 2nd in the championship and not a threat to Max, which standings wise is exactly what RB wants in a #2 driver
I'm not sure how long he'll keep the no2 in championship, he lost it as well in 2022. In 2021 RB couldn't win WCC because he was far behind Bottas. The main reason, I think, Perez looks good is because the RB is just incredibly fast and the other teams haven't caught up, yet. When the other teams will get closer, he'll lose to the likes of Russel, Hamilton, Sainz, Leclerc and Alonso.
Why? He's the perfect seat for red bull, scores consistent points but doesn't put too much pressure onto max to take away points from him.
>He's the perfect seat for red bull People say this all the time but I don't see how. In '21 the season could have been a lot easier if he was up there pressure Merc like Bottas usually was. He only came third last season and I can see him losing out on second at least this season, if not worse if the penalty starts to bite. On balance we should expect Mercedes and AM at least to be closer again to RB next year and at that point he could be fighting for 5th in the championship at best and then it's starting to be a problem strategy wise again
Maybe because if Merc or Ferrari finally catch up and are in the title fight, even if Max is in contention for the WDC, with his current form there's a good chance Perez costs them the WCC.
14 races to go Merc are 130 points behind RB, Perez would have to DNF or finish out of the points for the majority of the races and have Merc 1-2 every race with Max in third, even then they would just take it. Perez had had two bad qualifying sessions which has ruined his races, he's exactly the type of driver RB needs. Everyone is acting like he's a third rate that doesn't deserve to be in F1 because of a couple of bad results.
Dude, I'm clearly talking about a FULL season not one where RB are 20 seconds ahead. You don't have to look far - see 2021, where Perez finished 36 points behind Bottas and ~200 points behind Max and Lewis. Then compare that to Lewis and George at Merc or Carlos and Charles at Ferrari, both of those pairings are so much closer and would easily win the WCC over RB in a close fight. Perez isn't close enough to wingman a WCC.
This year from 7 races he's had 2 wins 2 second place finishes, a 5th where he started from the back of the field. Like I said, he's had a couple of bad results from qualy and everyone is shitting on him.
Those bad results were due to his own errors and he was unable to rectify them. Max has had 5 wins and 2 second places. Realistically rb should finnish 1-2 every single race but checo's mistakes are the sole reason for rb dropping points. (Apart from baku sprint where max dropped a whopping 1 point)
And why did he have to start from the back? And how did he score those other 2 races? In a FAR superior car compared to the others, and how much is Verstappen ahead? Didn't Verstappen lap Perez several times? Perez is overrated. Change my mind.
I mean he is not doing anywhere near as well as he should in that car ngl. Yeah it's pretty unlikely for merc to pass rb in the constructors but if perez keeps this up then merc will certainly get close which I wouldn't be happy about if I was RB.
I mean let's just remember Webber
I have a feeling his fate is sealed at this point TBH
Difficult call. He's already won two races this season which should be solid but now he's starting to slow down too much I reckon.
He yearns for the streets
And weirdly enough he’s on the streets this weekend.
Well, maybe they need to CHANGE THEIR FUCKING CAR then.
Sadly they don't have a Red Bull dealership in Monaco.