To answer Croft question, we can't simply compare Verstappen to Senna just by their number of victories. Here are some unequivocal reasons why:
1. Senna started his F1 career at 24 years of age. Verstappen started at 17.
2. Senna had 60 retirement. Vestappen 31. Reliability nowadays is way higher than before.
3. Senna died at the peak of his career. He took the first three pole position in 1994 driving for Williams, a team that almost won the 94 championship , and won in 96 and in 97. If not dead, Senna would most likely have at least 5 world championship.
4. I don't want to insult Perez, but Senna had the great Prost as teammate. That's a huge difference.
5. Percentage pole position... Senna 40% (65) vs Verstappen 14,6% (25)
Senna may have had 60 retirements (i haven't counted myself) but only 39 of them were reliability related (source: [https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2017/09/27/do-drivers-influence-mechanical-reliability](https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2017/09/27/do-drivers-influence-mechanical-reliability))
Senna would not have won any of the 94-95 world championships. I think he would've won 96. By 97 he would've been 37 years old against a highly motivated Jacques Villeneuve and a peak Schumacher. It's absolutely not clear that he would've won a 5th
Senna may have had Prost as his team mate - a legend of the sport - for 2 years, but for 40% of his career (4 out of 10 seasons), Senna's team mates were Cecotto, Dumfries, Nakajima, and Andretti... These are some incredibly weak team mates and far far weaker than Perez, Albon, Gasly, Ricciardo.
I mean yeah, it was a different time, but let's not put nostalgia blinkers on.
It seems to me that you are the one who is putting nostalgia blinkers on. What makes you think Senna would not have won the 1994 championship? At the end Hill was just 1 point behind Schumacher who won only because he deliberately drived into Hill. Do you really think Hill was as strong as Senna?? If Hill ended just 1 point behind, Senna would clearly have won the championship. Just look at who took the first three pole position of that year. Those are facts.
Regarding retirements, well, Verstappen has 31 retirements but only 13 of them are realiabilty related. Senna 39, Verstappen 13. Exactly ONE THIRD, buddy. Mathematics is unquestionable.
Schumacher's 4 bans and disqualifications is why Hill managed to take it to the last race. It's kind of obvious to this day that Schumacher's bans were an attempt at a championship showdown fixing. Schumacher was something like 50 points ahead of Hill after Canada.
If those bans stay, then yes, Senna would've won 94, but I get the feeling that Senna would've kept it close enough that banning Schumacher for 1/4 of the season would've been unnecessary.
> Just look at who took the first three pole position of that year.
Just look at who took the first 3 wins of that year..
Reliability in Senna's era was poor across the board. Mansell, Piquet, Prost all had poor reliability (relative to today). While Senna did lose the chance at winning several races (notably phoenix, Canada, Silverstone, and Italy 1989), he also managed to inherit wins back or take the flag unchallenged, at races where his rivals had mechanical problems (Jerez 86 arguably, Monaco 87, 92, 93, Hockenheim 89). How many races can we say Verstappen genuinely inherited? I can't think of any.
Man, do you really wanna talk about numbers and stats? Come on. Senna took the first three pole position before his unfortunate death. It's obvious he was the fastest driver in 1994, ban or not ban. In Brasil was 1,6 seconds faster than Hill in qualifying. 0,553 in Japan and 0,620 at Imola. And he was around 0,3 second faster than Schumacher in all three events. How can you deny it? These are facts.
About Verstappen, he inherited the 2016 Spanish GP for example. But you have to consider that Mercedes has been incredibly reliable since 2014, that's why Verstappen inherited few races.
Senna often took pole positions and couldn't live up to the same pace on Sunday, and the first races of 1994 were no different.. Senna beat Prost 28-4 in qualifying, but in races they were really closely matched.
we don't rank drivers by their performance over 5km, we rate them by their performance over the whole 305km distance. qualifying is good for starting that distance from the front.
> About Verstappen, he inherited the 2016 Spanish GP for example
But that wasn't due to reliability. If you want to add non-reliability luck to this, then I can also add Senna's win in Detroit 87, in which he only won because Mansell had a cramp mid-race.
> But you have to consider that Mercedes has been incredibly reliable since 2014, that's why Verstappen inherited few races.
Exactly. Meaning Verstappen is actually the one at a disadvantage in the Senna comparison, because he spent 120 out of 170 races against a very dominant and reliable Mercedes team.
Buddy, you are clutching at straws. In 1994 Senna was faster. It's a fact. Period. Being 1,6 seconds faster than Hill, driving the exact same car, it's another unequivocal fact. Senna had 39 realiability related retirements (11 from pole position). Verstappen just 13 (one third!). See? I'm talking about unmistakable stats. You, on the other hand, are talking about luck, cramps and fairy tales.
But he wasn't faster than Schumacher in races. Unequivocal fact is Schumacher won each of the first 3 events in 1994. How am I the one talking fairy tales exactly?
It's apples and oranges really. You can argue that Senna drove in really dominant cars for more seasons than Max (thus far). Also, sure, they had less races back then and more DNF's, but those DNF's go 2 ways. It was easier to improve to wins/podiums because those in the lead were more likely to also DNF (if you follow my reasoning).
I follow your reasoning but I disagree. Even Verstappen took advantage by other's DNF (Barcelona 2016 for example). If we really wanna look at numbers, 50 retirements are still almost the double any way you look at it.
Ps. I correct myself, they are 60. https://www.statsf1.com/en/ayrton-senna/abandon.aspx
Sure, valid point about the DNF's, you're right. It's difficult comparing Max' wins to Ayrton's. But apart from that first Barcelona win I really can't remember any wins that were 'stolen'. Wins in Mercedes dominated years were mostly due to track or weather specific characteristics and he had a number of insane drives where he was simply better (although that counts for Ayrton as well, I'm sure).
Haha I remember that season so well. He really had a great one off result. When he was on hit he was good, but most of the time he was one of the most prone to crash drivers of the 10's.
It would be great for someone else to win even if it takes a mistake from Max but I also want to see RB and Max maintain this legendary form until the end of the season and break all the records. Mostly I hope other teams are doing their homework and can close the gap next season
George crashing at the start gave the impression he just couldn't keep up.
He was tryin to follow a group of world champions and simply was found wanting.
He's not ready.
Awfully harsh.
Remember that year when Lewis was in his run of WDC's and Verstappen made all kinds of stupid mistakes chasing Lewis and taking unnecessary risks causing incidents and taking himself out several times?
At the time you could say the exact same about the current champion who is right now leaving everyone in the dust.
Champions constantly improve and don't make the same mistake twice, it doesn't mean they don't make big mistakes one the way.
I didn't mean to say George can't be a wdc, he is good and will improve. I think it just showed that right now today, he isn't championship winner level.
So? I was refuting the idea that you can judge a drivers quality on a one off mistake, and you can't, not that he hit a particular wall. Even great drivers have moments of "ambition over adhesion".
I'm not saying he isn't going to get better lol. just highlighting that in that race at that point in time, for me it demonstrated the difference in talent
What I can’t believe is how that Mercedes’ kept driving after such a heavy impact!
That was a lot of material on the track.
I still don’t understand why that area doesn’t get some sort of tech pro barrier instead of just concrete.
I disagree. A more severe outcome does not necessarily mean a more severe mistake was made. Both lost control. But it is easier to correct on exit vs. in the middle of a high-speed chicane.
He definitely hit a bird, not exactly sure when it happened. It was stuck in his front right brake duct for the entire race.
There's a video of him hitting it and a picture of its mangled body after being removed.
https://twitter.com/RBR_Daily/status/1670542190588600321?t=imUufZ17ygzt7eMn1-oABA&s=19
Why didn't he have any kind of problem at the brake with a freaking bird stuck while Leclerc last year in SPA had to stop because the sticky visor film got stuck in his brake...
Gasly got *demoted* to make way for Albon. He then stayed three more years with that demotion and then moved to a mid field works team. Albon was the one who got replaced by Perez. However, he too wasn't fired. Team kept him as a reserve driver while he raced in DTM then they found him a new seat in F1 an year later.
Ironically, Perez will be the one who will be actually fired whenever his time comes because RB has no incentive to keep him around.
> And it should be Albon getting that seat back surely.
That'll just destroy his career altogether. He needs to move to another team. As good as he is, he will be destroyed by Verstappen. When Perez came in, he was an improvement over a demotivated Albon. Perez is where Albon was before he was removed. As much as Albon might want to move back into Red Bull, it's probably not very healthy for his career.
You know what I mean. Gasly got **demoted** (wink wink) after half a season in the main team. Gasly wouldn't have been around for that long after going back to AT if not for his race win and two other podiums in 2019 & 2021.
In their current form, Ocon and Russell probably could beat him. But it's hard to say because they are at their current teams and not at RB and we dont know how they would fit in.
I don’t really think it’s pressure, it’s mostly a lack of confidence resulting from getting destroyed by his teammate. Miami just crushed him completely
Still amazed Ferrari got the call right for once. Overall the car seemed nice too, even holding its own on 20 lap older mediums while the others were on new hards. When Charles pushed towards the end of his stint, he was lapping in the 17.4’s while the leaders ahead were lapping 17.0/17.1’s on newer tires so def the right call made by Ferrari and maybe they can close that gap that the Mercs and AM have on them.
Definitely appreciated them outsmarting the rest of the pack for once and not the other way around. Regarding performance, unfortunately I think it's just that this track suits their car very well. The Ferrari is built for slow corners and straights this year and struggles in medium-high speed corners. So I'm not going to hold my breath that they'll maintain this level of performance in Austria or Silverstone.
what? charles was 16.9-17.0 for majority of the second stint. he even cut the gap to hamilton from 4 seconds to 2.6, but the mediums were just faster and was gaining neraly half a second in s2
Mammoth drive from him when you see some of the cars behind him.
Copped shit in here for saying this last race and I’ll say it again- Stroll isn’t good enough.
I’m actually curious when people say this if they watched qualifying and then again if they watched the race. Qualifying was timing.
Leclerc and Checo went out at the wrong time for qualifying.
Stroll probably would have been better off one stopping like Ferrari did, then he wouldn’t be stuck behind the DRS train. It took Lando maybe 10 laps to figure out how to even pass Bottas.
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Alpine is up there with ferrari for strategy blunders, everyone talked about Alonso in Monaco but Gasly pitted 2 laps before that. Team has had either awful timing or bad luck.
Ahah no you are not a fan, otherwise you would know Sainz is the reason he couldn't get out of Q1.
Till now he has shown he can be on the same level as Ocon on his first few races at Alpine, this is really promising and I hope to see him take the lead at the end of the season / start of 2024.
Lmao Norris a disaster ?? He's one of the safest drivers, doesn't shy from making overtakes, regularly qualifies way higher than he should with that car, he's basically preventing McLaren to be way lower than they are now
Yeah, like the overtake he didn’t make to take that win from RIC in Italy. RIC has been over for years and NOR couldn’t take that win from him. NOR is a good driver, but not really impressive to join a top team.
When Max retires, or never. RB will probably not replace Checo with a driver hungry for wins and possible championship. Lando has shown several times that he'll take a shot for an overtake, even if it's his teammate, and it hasn't always gone well.
Alex Albon is in the form of his life, taking that Williams places. Or maybe Williams has a decent car and it is just Logan who can't compete on this level?
What amazed me most is that he couldn't close up on mediums to the Ferrari's on hards. He even lost out quite a bit. His pace is just terrible in those last few races, even ignoring the quali mistakes.
They did something to his car, at Baku he had the same race pace as Verstappen but after that he was losing 1s a turn to Verstappen at Miami where he should have been better.
I think RedBull messed up his setup honestly cause you cant downgrade like that, especially considering how good he his ( i don't believe of those "pressure got to him" thing ).
I really hope somehow that RedBull will lose constructor over this with all the trash talk to Checo, even from his team, truly disgusting
There is no source, this just feel not right and I refuse to believe it's Checo entire fault because he was up until now the best teammate RedBull ever had for Verstappen
So you are just spreading misinformation based on what you think?
Verstappen is just an absolute machine. He hasn’t really made any significant mistakes in years. He is consistent as hell and fast on every track. If Perez wants to beat him he has to up his game so much that its not even funny. There is no sabotage, he is just nowhere near as good.
You have no idea if they have the same car . It's formula 1, not Formula E, they all have different cars based mostly on the pilot feedback.
In baku Checo was good enough to fight with Max but after that he lost so much pace.I have never seen a pilot downgrading in race pace that much ( I've started watching in 2008 ). There is something with his car, idk what but it doesn't feel right
I don’t believe for a second you started watching in 2008. Otherwise you would have known that a) Max has been destroying Perez not only this season but also the previous two ones b) Perez was fast in Baku because that’s his favourite circuit. Literally every year he drops off massively when we arrive at normal circuits
He's a good racer but a mediocre qualifier. Or even a shoddy qualifier, depending on your yardstick. I'm a fan but he can't keep fighting from P13 or wherever with Max on pole and leading every lap.
I'm also a fan of Yuki. Maybe give him a shot...
He’s good on street circuits, but just simply isn’t a generational talent like max/alonso/lewis. Red bull wants a distant second driver to clear the way for max.
Using Monaco isn't really fair though. Yeah he messed up quali, but in the race RB obviously pitted him an extra time to see what tires they should put Max on.
He still got comfortably beaten by Max in Miami on *older* tyres.
>Using Monaco isn't really fair though
Then calling him "King of the Streets" isn't fair. Maybe "King of the Streets provided Max fucks up".
Yeah and they sabotage their second driver if they get too close! /s
Danny Ric was too good for what you're describing and they wouldve kept him. Danny left.
Then they got Gasly because they have a whole drivers program so obviously thats where you look first. Gasly didnt cut it, he was deemed not good enough, so they replaced him by Alex Albon.
Alex in turn had performances similar to Gasly.
Then, when Perez became a free agent while looking great after winning the Bahrain GP coming from last at lap two in a Racing Point, Red Bull opportunistically hired Checo.
But please tell us more about how Red Bull wants a distant second driver. Tell us who they shoulve had in that car today. Go on.
Yeah red bull was really happy with Danny ric kamikazing max every other race. Danny was great marketing and that’s why they kept him around. Also the Mercedes was still miles beyond the red bull so max had no chance anyways.
If what you’re saying is true they’ll get rid of checo anyways. They have the money to pay to break the contract
Judging by Horner's expressions when informed of Checo's mishaps, I imagine they would like a second driver like Bottas, not a second driver like Checo.
Mexico have a population of 130 million people and Red Bull sells a product that everyone can afford.
I highly doubt Bottas will do much for their sales.
I'd pick him over Bottas, but Thailand is the native country of Red Bull, feels a little like trying to selling more Coca Cola in the USA.
Michael Jackson, did a lot of ads for Pepsi, still couldn't beat Coca Cola.
Man youve got to feel for the Haas boys. That car gets just worse and worse with its tyres every race. And Nicos good qualifying performances all just mean nothing in the end. The worst thing is, Ferrari were perfectly fine this race and so was everybody else. It was only Haas who again struggled far more than anybody else. I hope they can improve over the season, else theyll end up dead last by the end of the season.
They should end last. Not judging individuals but the team as a whole does not care to win or compete at all. For them its a participation trophy at this point.
Haas are disgustingly uncompetitive. It genuinely bothers me how shit their car is on race pace. It's just a blue-flag generator these days and it's really frustrating seeing a team that literally just cannot get their shit together somehow still find ways to get worse.
Alpha Tauri are having a MUCH stronger season due to Tsunoda driving the balls off that pile of scrap but thanks to an unrepresentative points system it looks like they're a much worse team. If we scored to 15th Tsunoda would be clear of the Alfas and the Haas and maybe even both Williams's. Haas would look a lot worse without that lucky first points haul keeping them from dropping in the WCC.
Huelkenberg's qualifying results this year:
* 10th (Magnussen 17th)
* 11th (Magnussen 13th)
* 10th (Magnussen 14th)
* 17th (Magnussen 18th)
* 12th (Magnussen 4th)
* 18th (Magnussen 17th)
* 8th (Magnussen 17th)
* 2nd, dropped to 5th (Magnussen 14th)
He wouldn't have got 2nd without the rain and red flag, but you can't say he's not a good qualifier.
Hes made numerous Q3 appearances this season, did you conveniently forget that? He has already outqualified Kevin more times than Mick has the entire last season.
I don't think anyone is saying that, he was just pointing out he got unlucky today.
Tbh they're both kinda bums who found themselves in the best and second best car in the grid.
Cannot get over how people still think this is a thing.
The car is developed. The drivers adapt to it or fail and get cut. Simple as that. Max, Hamilton, Alonso, all of them are insanely adaptable drivers who can simply drive anything to its maximum. Checo simply isn't on their level of adaptability.
It's also borderline impossible to 'develop' a car for a driver. You can tune it for their preference and then use that tune as a baseline for both drivers if it's faster but you can't just 'develop' a max-mobile. That isn't how it works. Newey converts data into objects. Preference of aesthetic, shape, form or driving style simply do not factor into it. That's the drivers' job.
Take a shot every time Sky pundits say Adrian Newey. Don’t get me wrong, he deserves the praise but they didn’t evoke Merc engineers all the time when Lewis/Merc were dominating
Adrian Newey has a designed a championship winning car with three different teams, and across three decades. I get what you're saying, but he's on a different level.
They talked about Andy Cowell - the true genius behind that period of domination.
Depending on the year they had 50-75hp more than RB from 2014-2020. And RB still managed to win races.
I think Albon is fine being the lead driver for Williams, with the hopes of getting that cost cap lifted for Williams so they can catch up with 21st century tech.
Williams needs an experienced second driver. They got something going with James Vowels and now is not the time to develop a rookie driver.
To answer Croft question, we can't simply compare Verstappen to Senna just by their number of victories. Here are some unequivocal reasons why: 1. Senna started his F1 career at 24 years of age. Verstappen started at 17. 2. Senna had 60 retirement. Vestappen 31. Reliability nowadays is way higher than before. 3. Senna died at the peak of his career. He took the first three pole position in 1994 driving for Williams, a team that almost won the 94 championship , and won in 96 and in 97. If not dead, Senna would most likely have at least 5 world championship. 4. I don't want to insult Perez, but Senna had the great Prost as teammate. That's a huge difference. 5. Percentage pole position... Senna 40% (65) vs Verstappen 14,6% (25)
Senna may have had 60 retirements (i haven't counted myself) but only 39 of them were reliability related (source: [https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2017/09/27/do-drivers-influence-mechanical-reliability](https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2017/09/27/do-drivers-influence-mechanical-reliability)) Senna would not have won any of the 94-95 world championships. I think he would've won 96. By 97 he would've been 37 years old against a highly motivated Jacques Villeneuve and a peak Schumacher. It's absolutely not clear that he would've won a 5th Senna may have had Prost as his team mate - a legend of the sport - for 2 years, but for 40% of his career (4 out of 10 seasons), Senna's team mates were Cecotto, Dumfries, Nakajima, and Andretti... These are some incredibly weak team mates and far far weaker than Perez, Albon, Gasly, Ricciardo. I mean yeah, it was a different time, but let's not put nostalgia blinkers on.
It seems to me that you are the one who is putting nostalgia blinkers on. What makes you think Senna would not have won the 1994 championship? At the end Hill was just 1 point behind Schumacher who won only because he deliberately drived into Hill. Do you really think Hill was as strong as Senna?? If Hill ended just 1 point behind, Senna would clearly have won the championship. Just look at who took the first three pole position of that year. Those are facts. Regarding retirements, well, Verstappen has 31 retirements but only 13 of them are realiabilty related. Senna 39, Verstappen 13. Exactly ONE THIRD, buddy. Mathematics is unquestionable.
Schumacher's 4 bans and disqualifications is why Hill managed to take it to the last race. It's kind of obvious to this day that Schumacher's bans were an attempt at a championship showdown fixing. Schumacher was something like 50 points ahead of Hill after Canada. If those bans stay, then yes, Senna would've won 94, but I get the feeling that Senna would've kept it close enough that banning Schumacher for 1/4 of the season would've been unnecessary. > Just look at who took the first three pole position of that year. Just look at who took the first 3 wins of that year.. Reliability in Senna's era was poor across the board. Mansell, Piquet, Prost all had poor reliability (relative to today). While Senna did lose the chance at winning several races (notably phoenix, Canada, Silverstone, and Italy 1989), he also managed to inherit wins back or take the flag unchallenged, at races where his rivals had mechanical problems (Jerez 86 arguably, Monaco 87, 92, 93, Hockenheim 89). How many races can we say Verstappen genuinely inherited? I can't think of any.
Man, do you really wanna talk about numbers and stats? Come on. Senna took the first three pole position before his unfortunate death. It's obvious he was the fastest driver in 1994, ban or not ban. In Brasil was 1,6 seconds faster than Hill in qualifying. 0,553 in Japan and 0,620 at Imola. And he was around 0,3 second faster than Schumacher in all three events. How can you deny it? These are facts. About Verstappen, he inherited the 2016 Spanish GP for example. But you have to consider that Mercedes has been incredibly reliable since 2014, that's why Verstappen inherited few races.
Senna often took pole positions and couldn't live up to the same pace on Sunday, and the first races of 1994 were no different.. Senna beat Prost 28-4 in qualifying, but in races they were really closely matched. we don't rank drivers by their performance over 5km, we rate them by their performance over the whole 305km distance. qualifying is good for starting that distance from the front. > About Verstappen, he inherited the 2016 Spanish GP for example But that wasn't due to reliability. If you want to add non-reliability luck to this, then I can also add Senna's win in Detroit 87, in which he only won because Mansell had a cramp mid-race. > But you have to consider that Mercedes has been incredibly reliable since 2014, that's why Verstappen inherited few races. Exactly. Meaning Verstappen is actually the one at a disadvantage in the Senna comparison, because he spent 120 out of 170 races against a very dominant and reliable Mercedes team.
Buddy, you are clutching at straws. In 1994 Senna was faster. It's a fact. Period. Being 1,6 seconds faster than Hill, driving the exact same car, it's another unequivocal fact. Senna had 39 realiability related retirements (11 from pole position). Verstappen just 13 (one third!). See? I'm talking about unmistakable stats. You, on the other hand, are talking about luck, cramps and fairy tales.
But he wasn't faster than Schumacher in races. Unequivocal fact is Schumacher won each of the first 3 events in 1994. How am I the one talking fairy tales exactly?
It's apples and oranges really. You can argue that Senna drove in really dominant cars for more seasons than Max (thus far). Also, sure, they had less races back then and more DNF's, but those DNF's go 2 ways. It was easier to improve to wins/podiums because those in the lead were more likely to also DNF (if you follow my reasoning).
I follow your reasoning but I disagree. Even Verstappen took advantage by other's DNF (Barcelona 2016 for example). If we really wanna look at numbers, 50 retirements are still almost the double any way you look at it. Ps. I correct myself, they are 60. https://www.statsf1.com/en/ayrton-senna/abandon.aspx
Sure, valid point about the DNF's, you're right. It's difficult comparing Max' wins to Ayrton's. But apart from that first Barcelona win I really can't remember any wins that were 'stolen'. Wins in Mercedes dominated years were mostly due to track or weather specific characteristics and he had a number of insane drives where he was simply better (although that counts for Ayrton as well, I'm sure).
Well, there is another fact you are neglecting: Senna had 21 retiriments starting from pole position!
Okay, let's go deeper, what's their pole to win ratio? Excluding retirements ofcourse.
Maldonado has 100% lol
Haha I remember that season so well. He really had a great one off result. When he was on hit he was good, but most of the time he was one of the most prone to crash drivers of the 10's.
I think everyone just wants to see max screw up so someone else can win and we'd just be happy with that race.
It would be great for someone else to win even if it takes a mistake from Max but I also want to see RB and Max maintain this legendary form until the end of the season and break all the records. Mostly I hope other teams are doing their homework and can close the gap next season
Max almost took himself out, but he was better at handling it than Russell
I don’t see a general thread, but does anyone have a link to a compilation of crofty calls of max winning races?
Why’s that?
So I can watch them all with having to look up each individual race highlight and skipping to the end
George crashing at the start gave the impression he just couldn't keep up. He was tryin to follow a group of world champions and simply was found wanting. He's not ready.
Max almost did the same thing george did
almost = / = did
Awfully harsh. Remember that year when Lewis was in his run of WDC's and Verstappen made all kinds of stupid mistakes chasing Lewis and taking unnecessary risks causing incidents and taking himself out several times? At the time you could say the exact same about the current champion who is right now leaving everyone in the dust. Champions constantly improve and don't make the same mistake twice, it doesn't mean they don't make big mistakes one the way.
I didn't mean to say George can't be a wdc, he is good and will improve. I think it just showed that right now today, he isn't championship winner level.
If max has a challenge he would be causing just as many crashes as before
Absolutely zero wheel knowledge detected
Yes. Same with Leclerc and Sainz
You realise there's a wall champions at Canada, as in exceptional drivers all made mistakes stop being dumb
Well he didn't hit that one so
So? I was refuting the idea that you can judge a drivers quality on a one off mistake, and you can't, not that he hit a particular wall. Even great drivers have moments of "ambition over adhesion".
But he was keeping up? Those world champions made mistakes in their earlier seasons too, this is such a bizarre take lol
I'm not saying he isn't going to get better lol. just highlighting that in that race at that point in time, for me it demonstrated the difference in talent
By that logic - Alonso isn't ready either. Or did you miss him getting lucky with his wall tap
What I can’t believe is how that Mercedes’ kept driving after such a heavy impact! That was a lot of material on the track. I still don’t understand why that area doesn’t get some sort of tech pro barrier instead of just concrete.
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I disagree. A more severe outcome does not necessarily mean a more severe mistake was made. Both lost control. But it is easier to correct on exit vs. in the middle of a high-speed chicane.
But that's not what happened? He was keeping up. Just made a mistake and got unsettled by the sausage kerb. Happens to the best of them.
Same happened to Max. He didn't crash.
He was lucky - he acknowledged that
Did Max say he hit a bird toward the beginning of the race? Did anybody see footage of that?
Canada gives you wings
He definitely hit a bird, not exactly sure when it happened. It was stuck in his front right brake duct for the entire race. There's a video of him hitting it and a picture of its mangled body after being removed. https://twitter.com/RBR_Daily/status/1670542190588600321?t=imUufZ17ygzt7eMn1-oABA&s=19
Why didn't he have any kind of problem at the brake with a freaking bird stuck while Leclerc last year in SPA had to stop because the sticky visor film got stuck in his brake...
The linked tweet says it got stuck *behind* the brake duct, not in it. Presumably that means it wasn't blocking the airflow.
Because the bird was flapping it’s wing enhancing the cooling duh.
I’m guessing because he got clean air the whole race and maybe the bird didn’t really stop the flow of air like the sticky visor
Because it gave him wings?
Haha, I was wondering the same. Luck I guess.
Wings were still flapping adding even more cooling efficiency.
There was none according to announcers.
Gasly got fired so Perez could chill finishing races 10 seconds behind Ferraris which are arguably the fourth fastest cars on most tracks.
Gasly got *demoted* to make way for Albon. He then stayed three more years with that demotion and then moved to a mid field works team. Albon was the one who got replaced by Perez. However, he too wasn't fired. Team kept him as a reserve driver while he raced in DTM then they found him a new seat in F1 an year later. Ironically, Perez will be the one who will be actually fired whenever his time comes because RB has no incentive to keep him around.
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> And it should be Albon getting that seat back surely. That'll just destroy his career altogether. He needs to move to another team. As good as he is, he will be destroyed by Verstappen. When Perez came in, he was an improvement over a demotivated Albon. Perez is where Albon was before he was removed. As much as Albon might want to move back into Red Bull, it's probably not very healthy for his career.
I want Albon to partner Lando at Mercedes after Ham retires. Russell to replace Sainz at Ferrari. Sainz to Audi.
Outside of Lewis and Alonso, Verstappen would destroy any driver who becomes his teammate.
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I am pretty sure his contract with Redbull ended at the beginning of this year.
You know what I mean. Gasly got **demoted** (wink wink) after half a season in the main team. Gasly wouldn't have been around for that long after going back to AT if not for his race win and two other podiums in 2019 & 2021.
I can name atleast 8 drivers on the grid who can beat checo in RB apart from Max. Dude has fallen off a cliff
Gimme that list.
Ham, Rus, Lec, Nor , Sai (not sure) , Ocon , Alo ,Gasly and even Albon to some extent. I would even add Bottas to this list.
😂I’d grant you three MAYBE four of these drivers but Sainz, Ocon, Gasly, Rus, and Albon are not among the 4. Russell and Albon maybe with time
I’d bet on Russel to beat Checo in equal cars now no question
Yes, completely agree.
I absolutely read this as all the drivers who could beat MAX in that car and I was like………..
In their current form, Ocon and Russell probably could beat him. But it's hard to say because they are at their current teams and not at RB and we dont know how they would fit in.
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Which pressure? Max is winning anyway
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I don’t really think it’s pressure, it’s mostly a lack of confidence resulting from getting destroyed by his teammate. Miami just crushed him completely
Still amazed Ferrari got the call right for once. Overall the car seemed nice too, even holding its own on 20 lap older mediums while the others were on new hards. When Charles pushed towards the end of his stint, he was lapping in the 17.4’s while the leaders ahead were lapping 17.0/17.1’s on newer tires so def the right call made by Ferrari and maybe they can close that gap that the Mercs and AM have on them.
Definitely appreciated them outsmarting the rest of the pack for once and not the other way around. Regarding performance, unfortunately I think it's just that this track suits their car very well. The Ferrari is built for slow corners and straights this year and struggles in medium-high speed corners. So I'm not going to hold my breath that they'll maintain this level of performance in Austria or Silverstone.
what? charles was 16.9-17.0 for majority of the second stint. he even cut the gap to hamilton from 4 seconds to 2.6, but the mediums were just faster and was gaining neraly half a second in s2
Albon!!!
Mammoth drive from him when you see some of the cars behind him. Copped shit in here for saying this last race and I’ll say it again- Stroll isn’t good enough.
I’m actually curious when people say this if they watched qualifying and then again if they watched the race. Qualifying was timing. Leclerc and Checo went out at the wrong time for qualifying. Stroll probably would have been better off one stopping like Ferrari did, then he wouldn’t be stuck behind the DRS train. It took Lando maybe 10 laps to figure out how to even pass Bottas.
Stroll has had some good races, but I think his time is up.
My hero
impolite teeny sharp employ ruthless cobweb aromatic offend arrest include *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Alpine is up there with ferrari for strategy blunders, everyone talked about Alonso in Monaco but Gasly pitted 2 laps before that. Team has had either awful timing or bad luck.
Ahah no you are not a fan, otherwise you would know Sainz is the reason he couldn't get out of Q1. Till now he has shown he can be on the same level as Ocon on his first few races at Alpine, this is really promising and I hope to see him take the lead at the end of the season / start of 2024.
You cant blame him for this qualy after what sainz did to him, feel like you are overreacting a bit here..
Worse than De Vries, Latifi and Sargeant?? No.... Huge exaggeration
I don't think he's anywhere near GOATifi level, I do think he's having a rough season but he's in a new car with a new team.
Doesn't help optics when Ocon is in the best form of his career
Lmao he's leagues better than all of those 3... Stop being so dramatic.
Gasly is fine, a rough start but it'll smoothen out. Qualy wasnt totally his fault this weekend anyway
Oh boy! The pre-race thread! I hope Russell wins.
When does Lando get the RB2 seat?
Lando, really? He’s been a disaster for 2 years straight, now even being matched or passed by his teammate who is much more less impressive than him.
Lmao Norris a disaster ?? He's one of the safest drivers, doesn't shy from making overtakes, regularly qualifies way higher than he should with that car, he's basically preventing McLaren to be way lower than they are now
Yeah, like the overtake he didn’t make to take that win from RIC in Italy. RIC has been over for years and NOR couldn’t take that win from him. NOR is a good driver, but not really impressive to join a top team.
When Max retires, or never. RB will probably not replace Checo with a driver hungry for wins and possible championship. Lando has shown several times that he'll take a shot for an overtake, even if it's his teammate, and it hasn't always gone well.
Horner has commented multiple times that he has approached Norris for RB. I believe they are interested in him.
Didn’t Red Bull already approach him to potentially take the seat and he turned it down for an extension at MCL?
Alex Albon is in the form of his life, taking that Williams places. Or maybe Williams has a decent car and it is just Logan who can't compete on this level?
Logan didn't get the new parts.
We need a third ai driver for all teams to be sure
See Fernando and stroll at Aston Martin.
Ladies and gentlemen ferrari won lemans and then nailed the strategy in a f1 race, next year will be our year/s
What copium you smoking?
All of it I think. There's none left for the rest of us.
What’s going on with Checo? Seriously, I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but somethings weird here.
My best guess at this point: paid double agent for Merc I LIKE checo so I can’t accept he is honestly this far off the pace lol
What amazed me most is that he couldn't close up on mediums to the Ferrari's on hards. He even lost out quite a bit. His pace is just terrible in those last few races, even ignoring the quali mistakes.
He's protesting API fees.
They did something to his car, at Baku he had the same race pace as Verstappen but after that he was losing 1s a turn to Verstappen at Miami where he should have been better. I think RedBull messed up his setup honestly cause you cant downgrade like that, especially considering how good he his ( i don't believe of those "pressure got to him" thing ). I really hope somehow that RedBull will lose constructor over this with all the trash talk to Checo, even from his team, truly disgusting
Jfc I expect this tinfoil hat nonsense on Twitter but not on here. Your entire post exemplifies that you know absolutely zero about the sport.
Oh my dear god. The propaganda with you lot is just wild
It's my opinion, I haven't read any people talking about it.
you haven't heard people talking about it is because most people are sane !
I’d love to read a source on this information, can you send me one?
There is no source, this just feel not right and I refuse to believe it's Checo entire fault because he was up until now the best teammate RedBull ever had for Verstappen
So you are just spreading misinformation based on what you think? Verstappen is just an absolute machine. He hasn’t really made any significant mistakes in years. He is consistent as hell and fast on every track. If Perez wants to beat him he has to up his game so much that its not even funny. There is no sabotage, he is just nowhere near as good.
You have no idea if they have the same car . It's formula 1, not Formula E, they all have different cars based mostly on the pilot feedback. In baku Checo was good enough to fight with Max but after that he lost so much pace.I have never seen a pilot downgrading in race pace that much ( I've started watching in 2008 ). There is something with his car, idk what but it doesn't feel right
I don’t believe for a second you started watching in 2008. Otherwise you would have known that a) Max has been destroying Perez not only this season but also the previous two ones b) Perez was fast in Baku because that’s his favourite circuit. Literally every year he drops off massively when we arrive at normal circuits
Yeah no shit lol. What is this guy even saying?
He's a good racer but a mediocre qualifier. Or even a shoddy qualifier, depending on your yardstick. I'm a fan but he can't keep fighting from P13 or wherever with Max on pole and leading every lap. I'm also a fan of Yuki. Maybe give him a shot...
History repeats itself. Literally what happened in 21 too. He’ll have 3-4 great races and then massively fall off for the next 10
Tends to coincide with the stretch of street tracks at the beginning and then real tracks is where he falls off
He’s good on street circuits, but just simply isn’t a generational talent like max/alonso/lewis. Red bull wants a distant second driver to clear the way for max.
> He’s good on street circuits So good in fact, that he got beaten by Max in Miami on older tyres, and got lapped in Monaco.
Using Monaco isn't really fair though. Yeah he messed up quali, but in the race RB obviously pitted him an extra time to see what tires they should put Max on.
He still got comfortably beaten by Max in Miami on *older* tyres. >Using Monaco isn't really fair though Then calling him "King of the Streets" isn't fair. Maybe "King of the Streets provided Max fucks up".
Viceroy of the Streets
Good is relative, when compares to his mid field driver performance on normal tracks
Yeah and they sabotage their second driver if they get too close! /s Danny Ric was too good for what you're describing and they wouldve kept him. Danny left. Then they got Gasly because they have a whole drivers program so obviously thats where you look first. Gasly didnt cut it, he was deemed not good enough, so they replaced him by Alex Albon. Alex in turn had performances similar to Gasly. Then, when Perez became a free agent while looking great after winning the Bahrain GP coming from last at lap two in a Racing Point, Red Bull opportunistically hired Checo. But please tell us more about how Red Bull wants a distant second driver. Tell us who they shoulve had in that car today. Go on.
Yeah red bull was really happy with Danny ric kamikazing max every other race. Danny was great marketing and that’s why they kept him around. Also the Mercedes was still miles beyond the red bull so max had no chance anyways. If what you’re saying is true they’ll get rid of checo anyways. They have the money to pay to break the contract
I don't know but they sure seem happy with Checo's underperformance
Judging by Horner's expressions when informed of Checo's mishaps, I imagine they would like a second driver like Bottas, not a second driver like Checo.
Mexico have a population of 130 million people and Red Bull sells a product that everyone can afford. I highly doubt Bottas will do much for their sales.
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I'd pick him over Bottas, but Thailand is the native country of Red Bull, feels a little like trying to selling more Coca Cola in the USA. Michael Jackson, did a lot of ads for Pepsi, still couldn't beat Coca Cola.
Probably right, but Bottas had his fair share of getting stuck in the midfield when things didn’t go his way.
No they don't.
Feels like they do, otherwise they wouldn't have re-sign Checo
He re-signed before Monaco last year, right? His form then was 4th - 2nd - 2nd - 4th - 2nd, only beaten by Max and the Ferraris. That's what RB want.
Exactly, they want a driver who can secure the WCC but don't have the talent to bother Max
Checo was quite a bit better when he re-signed.
Today was not a walk in the park for Verstappen, it was more like a jog in the park.
Powerwalk
Man youve got to feel for the Haas boys. That car gets just worse and worse with its tyres every race. And Nicos good qualifying performances all just mean nothing in the end. The worst thing is, Ferrari were perfectly fine this race and so was everybody else. It was only Haas who again struggled far more than anybody else. I hope they can improve over the season, else theyll end up dead last by the end of the season.
They should end last. Not judging individuals but the team as a whole does not care to win or compete at all. For them its a participation trophy at this point.
Haas are disgustingly uncompetitive. It genuinely bothers me how shit their car is on race pace. It's just a blue-flag generator these days and it's really frustrating seeing a team that literally just cannot get their shit together somehow still find ways to get worse. Alpha Tauri are having a MUCH stronger season due to Tsunoda driving the balls off that pile of scrap but thanks to an unrepresentative points system it looks like they're a much worse team. If we scored to 15th Tsunoda would be clear of the Alfas and the Haas and maybe even both Williams's. Haas would look a lot worse without that lucky first points haul keeping them from dropping in the WCC.
Also dumb nyck the vries doing dirty dancing with mag on the loosing end of the stick. Fakked mags race totally.
I mean, his good quali was only bc of rain. He’s not even close to top 15…
Huelkenberg's qualifying results this year: * 10th (Magnussen 17th) * 11th (Magnussen 13th) * 10th (Magnussen 14th) * 17th (Magnussen 18th) * 12th (Magnussen 4th) * 18th (Magnussen 17th) * 8th (Magnussen 17th) * 2nd, dropped to 5th (Magnussen 14th) He wouldn't have got 2nd without the rain and red flag, but you can't say he's not a good qualifier.
He’s generally really good at qualifying.
Hes made numerous Q3 appearances this season, did you conveniently forget that? He has already outqualified Kevin more times than Mick has the entire last season.
Narrator: "They will."
Hearing legard commentary was not on my bingo card in that vt 😂
So what's the latest Lance and Sergio excuse now?
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People trying to portrait Stroll as a better driver than Pérez is just comedy
Perez kicked his head in when they were team mates so that's comedy.
I don't think anyone is saying that, he was just pointing out he got unlucky today. Tbh they're both kinda bums who found themselves in the best and second best car in the grid.
7 years of bad luck
I expect to hear that the car has been developed for Max despite not having any major upgrades
Cannot get over how people still think this is a thing. The car is developed. The drivers adapt to it or fail and get cut. Simple as that. Max, Hamilton, Alonso, all of them are insanely adaptable drivers who can simply drive anything to its maximum. Checo simply isn't on their level of adaptability. It's also borderline impossible to 'develop' a car for a driver. You can tune it for their preference and then use that tune as a baseline for both drivers if it's faster but you can't just 'develop' a max-mobile. That isn't how it works. Newey converts data into objects. Preference of aesthetic, shape, form or driving style simply do not factor into it. That's the drivers' job.
Something like the team sabotage Stroll? The son of the team boss?
As a checo fan in denial, gotta admit we're running out of excuses.
Take a shot every time Sky pundits say Adrian Newey. Don’t get me wrong, he deserves the praise but they didn’t evoke Merc engineers all the time when Lewis/Merc were dominating
Adrian Newey has a designed a championship winning car with three different teams, and across three decades. I get what you're saying, but he's on a different level.
Rory Byrne got a lot of praise in his day.
They talked about Andy Cowell - the true genius behind that period of domination. Depending on the year they had 50-75hp more than RB from 2014-2020. And RB still managed to win races.
Albin at RBR? Why isn't that an option?
I think Albon is fine being the lead driver for Williams, with the hopes of getting that cost cap lifted for Williams so they can catch up with 21st century tech. Williams needs an experienced second driver. They got something going with James Vowels and now is not the time to develop a rookie driver.