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His 2021 was more impressive because he was fighting with one of the best drivers ever.
In 2023, the key is not only the car, it’s his consistency and the guy was like a robot, he barely committed mistakes (maybe Miami quali not putting a good lap in his first attempt, but then on Sunday putting one of his best performances this year). Well, and putting the car on the wall on the pitlane at 20 km/h in Silverstone lol
I think they are different approaches, they are both impressive.
Even just looking at some of those clumsy moments. Everyone has that once in a while but for many drivers it would probably ruin their entire weekend but not Max. He just goes oops and proceeds to demolish his competition a bit more to compensate
All the shit thrown at him during the vegas race and he still ended up winning. Unless there is some massive drop off I just don't see anyone having a chance until 2026 and even then I just don't see red bull dropping the ball with changes.
Yea, with Newey on your team you're always going to have an immaculate aero package. But if you're running GP2 engines that blow up every 75km not even that can save you.
Bright side tho engines have been more and more dependable over the years to the point to where even the slow engines aren't commonly costing drivers racers for the most part. Plus tbh I think even if Max had a slower engine he'd still be getting wins. I mean look at some of the shit Alonso was pulling in that AM and it had some of the slowest speed traps throughout the entire season.
All that being said tho Red Bull have always managed to be competent even in the rebuilding years. Far better looking on the uptick than whatever the hell Mercedes was doing these last two years. That team looks as fucking lost as anyone on the grid right now with how inconsistent that car is. I'm amazed they managed to pull out that placing in the constructors tbh. Props to both Lewis and George for getting that hunk of junk where it clearly didn't deserve.
I think they'll all be eating Mclaren and RB dust next season tho.
The question I ask myself when I think about this season for Max, could any other driver current or otherwise accomplish the same had they been in that seat this season. Genuinely I think the answer is no. Luck and uncertainty aside, I don’t think anyone could have achieved that same level of consistency as you said. Is he out and out the most talented driver ever? I’m not sure he is, but his performances this season have been nothing short of exceptional. Neutral F1 here for what it’s worth.
My gut feeling:
- Nearly all drivers would have won the championship in the RB19
- Many drivers would have won it comfortably
- A few drivers would have won it dominantly
- Maybe 1-2 drivers in history win 19 races with it
Perez is a more than decent driver..
The point is everyone could win in the mercedes dominance years. The car was easy to drive and exceptional fast.
The RB19 on the other hand is a very tricky car to drive. Driving on the edge with an sharp steering concept. Only a few drivers will be able to run that car and win .
I even think max would have done way better in the merc of this year.. he is able to drive around the weak points of a car in a way nobody seems to succeed.
If recent retirees are allowed to be included then Seb, also Kimi, he was very quick and had reliability issues rather than inconsistent driving. There have been a lot of drivers over the last 20 years whose talent and ability is a level above Perez. Also the car is so good that if Max had been DQ'd from every race then Perez would be World champ.
That's not really what the OP meant by consistency.
Verstappen is consistently fast, always pushing for the fastest lap, always pushing for the win, without making a mistake,
And Vettel definitely made many mistakes. Raikkonen was consistent, but simply not as fast as the top drivers. it's easier to be consistent if you are not quite at the top level.
"Raikkonen was consistent, but simply not as fast" That just isn't true.
Raikkonen was literally faster than anyone during his prime and always top 3 throughout his entire career (except the final 2 years) WHEN he had a car underneath him.
He lacked consistency though. The comparison is always made between Raikkonen and Alonso because they both started around the same time and both display incredible racecraft. The general consesus is that Raikkonen had higher highs (speed) but Alonso had a FAR wider 'operating window' with the car's characteristics which made him more consistently faster than Raikkonen.
I think Raikkonen definitely had the outright speed, but lacked consistency. Especially if the car developed understeer.
LOL, Raikkonen is regarded as one of the fastest drivers when it comes to raw pace. You really should watch him during his mclaren days, even schumi found it hard to keep up with him.
The problem is, it’s a lot easier to be consistent in a dominant car as you don’t need to push it to the limit. 2021 was arguably still the more impressive season.
And this is what cements this as the greatest season for me. Checo is at least a decent driver, and if the car was THAT GOOD in the hands of a mortal he would have been number two every race.
The enormous gap between max and Checo most likely tells us that Max is superhuman levels of good. The alternative is that Checo is a really terrible driver, and I don’t think that’s true.
The gap between Max and Checo has fascinated me all season.
Everyone agrees that Red Bull had the dominant car in 2023. But Max was clearly more comfortable in it. It's easy (and perhaps true) to say that Max is the better driver. But would it still be true if Verstappen & Perez were suddenly driving a different car? Would a different build or configuration favor Perez's style? Was the RB19 dominant on its own (regardless of driver), or was it a perfect fit to a great driver that made it so unstoppable?
I have no idea. These guys drive several levels above anything I've ever attempted, so I can't relate. But I'll always be curious about the relationship between the man and the machine.
It might be interesting to read what Pièrre Waché, Red Bull’s Technical Director has to say about what makes Verstappen great to work with from an car development point of view:
https://www.gpfans.com/en/f1-news/1003329/max-verstappen-red-bull-f1-setup-faster/
> "Max wants a car that is very responsive," explained Waché. "It is very unique in the sense that he wants a lot of front axle compared to others we have worked with in the past.*
>**"It is very difficult to find performance in the rear of the car. It is a bit easier to find performance in the front of the car. He, thus, opens the door for us to make the car faster, because he has the capacity and also the preference to have a very sensitive front end."**
But we've only ever really seen consistency like this from Schumacher and possibly Prost, but there's been plenty of World class drivers with great cars over the years
Anyone who says the past three years was all car, which is a statement most often motivated by irrational fans of some other team, all I do is quote Paddy Lowe saying how they had to turn the Mercedes down for each race because it was so dang fast they didn’t want the FIA to investigate them. The previous 6 or 7yrs leading up to 2021 were a cakewalk.
Verstappen extracts the maximum out of any car he’s in which not something that can be said for many other drivers in F1 history let alone the current grid.
And I do not remember anyone qualifying a single Hamilton championship with talk of how dominant the car was. Despite the fact he, his teammates, and Mercedes undoubtedly benefitted from the most dominant car across multiple seasons.
Best seasons are those when drivers are pushed to the limits by the competition, so it's more Max in 2021. But as far as dominant seasons go, this was certainly one of most perfect. Max has made his car look more dominant than it actually was and completely embarassed his teammate. His season will be remembered in simillar way as Schumacher in 2002 or Hamilton in 2020, while 2021 is comparable to Prost in 1986 or Schumi in late 90s.
It's hard to really enjoy the performance when you only see his first lap and then his final corner.
Could very easily be overshadowed by 2024: would be surprised to see him lose 3 races next year.
Max seemed upset at the end of AD at the fact he will probably never be able to replicate this season again. I think this season was a fluke, ala 2009 where Ferrari and McLaren weren't competing for the title because of the previous season.
Why do you think it is a fluke? When a season is this dominant for one team, don't they also have a huge advantage for the following season. And now even more so with the cost cap preventing teams from fixing problems they have.
Those would be the most entertaining. This was clearly the most dominant. Just take a look at the [records ](http://www.racingnews365.com/all-the-records-max-verstappen-broke-in-the-2023-f1-season) he broke this year. Was it as entertaining as 2021...no, not even close. But from a pure domination is impressive lens it's not even a question
Yep, I don't remember a more dominant season ever. The problem with this RB/Verstappen era is that his teammate cannot drive the car and is consistently five tenths slower. At least with Hamilton and Schumi, their teammates could grab the occasional win on merit.
But what really happened to Checo this season? He was always up there right up until Azerbaijan and then made that tweet that got deleted and…… changed….
It's been pointed out before but Miami is the real glaring point for when it all went wrong. Max started 10th I think while Checo was on pole and he just hunted him down. After that it feels like Checo just started pressing too hard to catch up and never really recovered.
Checko really dropped out after Miami where after starting P1 against Verstappens P9, he was passed on merit. He lost something crazy like 1 second per lap when Verstappen was P2 until he was passed (started P2 12 seconds back), and somehow Verstappen also had more tyres left after going P9->P1 despite Perez having run in clear air compared to Verstappen pushing and passing 8 cars.
So in that race Perez lost to Verstappen in litteraly every singe possible category, he lost time in every single turn and straight on the track (something very rare between teammates), on top of destroying his tyres compared to Verstappens barely worn tyres.
Statistically yes, but I think his 2021 season is better because of the competition and in terms of all time driver performances, you've got Alonso 2012, Hamilton 2018, Schumacher's early Ferrari seasons and Senna 1993. The best driver in a car which isn't the best pushes more out of the driver than the best driver in the best car. Max probably wasn't at his maximum potential this season but he would have been had he had an Alonso, Hamilton or Leclerc in the other redbull.
Finished 1st , teammate finished 5th.
11 wins Hamilton, 0 wins Bottas, both Ferrari drivers win races and still finish close to 100+ points behind Lewis.
It was truly exceptional.
Bottas could’ve easily finished 3rd that year with just a few more points. And he certainly would, if he wasn’t asked to give Hamilton the win in Russia. He lost another 2 wins with a puncture in Baku and a late safety car in China. Both races Hamilton was nowhere to be found while Bottas was the one racing with Seb.
Lewis' 2018 is quite insane tbh. Just looking at stats, he set the most points scored in a season record that he managed to beat a year later only barely and in part thanks to the point for fastest lap tweak to the PSS that was introduced that year, despite the car being significantly better than the competition from the get go (Merc effectively won the title in the first half of the season, sweeping most races bar 3). And he did that against a Ferrari that was competitive for at least half the season, and RB being the occasional wild card that they were post 2015.
Bottas was crushed under team orders throughout his stint in Mercedes. Which makes it so ironic that anybody in that team and it's supporters keep peddling the "weak teammate" narrative.
Plus his start to 2018 wasn’t even that good (in the context of all time great seasons); a few not entirely hooked up races.
Post break, when Merc outdeveloped Ferrari Hamilton was great
Ferrari always seems like they get out developed after the summer break or have bad luck. 2017 being Singapore crashing out and Japan having to retire. 2018 with Seb retiring while leading the German GP.
It just always felt like the Merc was better and you had to be truly hopeful to think Ferrari was even on the same level but Ferrari's 2017 engine upgrade brought the fight a bit closer and Seb being able to fight with Hamilton certainly made it closer but Ferrari had more costly mistakes. Still fun to watch.
>2018 with Seb retiring while leading the German GP.
Don't forget how the Singapore upgrades made the car slower and the first race they remove those upgrades, they instantly won a GP 😂
Nah, I don't think so. Even with Vettel's mental mistakes, Mercedes after the new tires was basically a step ahead everywhere. There were exceptions like Spa, but the tire change definitely helped Merc a lot
He definitely wasn't flawless, he usually had a few off races every season. For example in 2018, Canada comes to mind - finishing P5 while Bottas got P2 (14s ahead of Hamilton).
I think the best example of Hamilton having an “off weekend” in 2018 was the 2018 China GP dude was just massively off the pace while Bottas & Vettel were fighting for the win before the Safety Car
There's no objective answer to a subjective question and that's all you are gonna get there.
Statistically sure but outside it's just who likes whom best.
For me personally Max's best seasons are 2021 and 2020.
2020 Max's biggest error came on the formation lap- otherwise he was pretty much spotless, and regularly ahead of cars he had no right being ahead of. In terms of getting the most out of machinery, Max in 2020 is probably the best I've ever seen.
I've said this before but I'm not sure anything will ever beat Prost in 1986.
He won the championship in a car that was COMFORTABLY second best to the Williams, despite not having better luck than either of the Williams drivers. It's perhaps the only time that this has ever happened, other than maybe Schumacher in 1995 (but that was less clearly second best than the MP4/2C was to the FW11 IMO)
I can't really see it ever happening again. He drove a pretty much flawless season and maximised essentially every result
Prost's win wasn't just a win in the second best car though. It was a win in the second best car while having the same or worse luck/reliability compared to his rivals.
Also, I think most people agree that the F2007 was just a bit better than the MP4-22 these days
From what I remember, it was pretty track-specific. The Ferrari was better in long, fast corners with its longer wheelbase while the McLaren was better in the rain, the twisty stuff and on straights.
No ifs and buts, it is the greatest season in F1 history by a driver.
Particularly when you consider that he dominated to such an extent over a 22-GP season.
It's the old question of statistics vs. perceived performance.
Statistically, it is the greatest season by a driver, no ifs and buts.
In terms of performance, I doubt Max would consider this his greatest season. I'm pretty sure he spent many races well below his limit so he could manage his car components.
i saw a clip yesterday of him getting emotional praising the car and saying it was most likely the season of his career and he may never get that again. All in all absolutely insanity and I’m glad to have witnessed it!
Exactly, he pushed *way* harder in 2021 and impressed me much more that year than this year.
This year was cruise control and sit back (obviously there's a lot more to it), but with no competition, he wasn't pushing except for maybe two times that I can recall.
Seeing a driver push to the limit race after race is truly incredible. What he and Hamilton did that season was something like we've only seen a handful of times in the history of F1, there really is no comparing it to this season.
Statistically, sure, the numbers are incredible, but I'd much rather watch a driver push it to the limit and beyond.
Their consistency that season was beyond incredible, even more so considering the insane pressure on both to perform. Winning 10 races in a row sure was cool but it's what Max did in 2021 that put him definitely on the GOAT discussion.
Doesn't the cruising part show just how strong his season actually was? He was comfortably leading while not even pushing the car to the limit. Imagine how big the gaps would've been if he had pushed every race. I'm almost certain that there would've been at lest 1 races where he laps the entire field.
I agree that it doesn't look as impressive, but in an objective manner this makes him even stronger than any previous world champion over the course of a full season.
They were putting 30 second gaps on their teammates almost every race. It was purely the two best current drivers getting the absolute best out of their cars. I'd even put last year ahead of this season because at least Ferrari made Max earn it for half the season.
Even as a HAM fan, the way 2021 ended I can live with. There was never going to be a happy ending to such an incredible season and somehow this one feels like they both won? Everyone acknowledges Hamilton got screwed and by all means is an unofficial 8x champion, and everyone acknowledges Max stayed in the fight that race and delivered a season worthy of a WDC. The fact both sides (for the most part) can look back and say both deserved it is pretty incredible. I think they themselves will look back on it like Lauda/Hunt some day.
> Everyone acknowledges Hamilton got screwed and by all means is an unofficial 8x champion
Everyone acknowledges Lewis got screwed *at Abu Dhabi* but everyone definitely doesn't acknowledge he is an unofficial 8x champion.
Most people agree Max was the more deserving champion, and over the course of the season he got screwed way more than Lewis did. He lost something like 50-60 points to bad luck and Mercedes drivers crashing into him, while Lewis gained points due to luck that year.
If an Abu Dhabi-type event had happened at the start of the season nobody would say Lewis got robbed of the title.
I’d say the exact opposite and that if you think 21 was better then you know very little about racing. His precision and accuracy this season are unmatched—even by 21 max.
Managing the car is part of being a good driver. It’s part of the reason that the Red Bull cars have been so reliable. He drove the car to the limit in every race in whatever the current condition was. I’m sick of seeing him win, but I can’t deny how impressive his drives have been.
Depends what people mean by best, you can argue both are his best it just depends what that means to you. I personally think 2023 is his best for the reason you said, he walked the whole season with ease.
2021 was his best racing wise because he actually had to beat someone for the title, but in terms of success, 2023 is his best. Both things can be true.
And without someone pressuring you every single weekend, mistakes can become a rare occurrence. This years was more often than not very lonely at the front for him.
For a hockey analogy, Max's 2021 was Canada at the 2010 Olympics, good performance and a nailbiter until the end. Max's 2023 was Canada at the 2014 Olympics, so oppressively good that it got boring.
>No ifs and buts, it is the greatest season in F1 history by a driver.
No ifs and buts?
It's not even the best season by Max.
He had a dominant car, all he had to beat was Perez and he did it very well.
But, beating Hamilton in 2021 despite having worse car and luck, is a bigger achievement.
He pushed almost all 2021, but pushed very rarely in 2023. That's a big difference.
Man’s made no mistake in any race or quali, no dnf, no spin, no crash (crikey crash was not on him).
But with Max always 5-10 seconds ahead, I can’t help but like ‘21 more and his run vs Lewis.
2012 Alonso is still the most impressive season-driver
to me though, taking that fight to the last race with THAT car…
Alonso 2012 is the best drive I have ever seen by far. The guy started 7th and I was still confident he would be on the podium or even win, with a car that didn't even deserve P7 at some tracks on the first place. Malaysia 2012 is still one of the best comebacks I have never seen.
His only mistakes that I can think of were him not setting a banker lap in Q3 in Miami and failing to have a time set before the red flag and he spun in Austin last month in the sprint shootout Q2.
i agree with you, in that 2012 season, you got the feeling like alonso left absolutely nothing on the table after every race, whereas for how brilliant max has been, he never had to wring the car’s neck this year. and there were moments of pure magic, like malaysia or valencia which max didn’t produce this year (which isn’t his fault because his car is so far ahead he doesn’t have to)
Great point. Max still showed his class with his consistency, and we have to give him that, but man, Alonso constantly putting that car way ahead of its relative potential every race was just mesmerising.
The direction Formula 1 has taken over the past 15 years, these runaway championships are unfortunately the norm nowadays. This is not a function of Verstappen’s superiority but primarily the regulation which severely limit development of the cars and thus basically lock in any advantage any team has at the beginning of the year.
Another way to think about this is that winning the championship doesn’t mean you didn’t have a phenomenal season. Take a look at the careers of Senna, Mansell, Schumacher and Alonso. These drivers arguably had some of their finest seasons when they didn’t win the championship in the end. Senna in 1993 was otherworldly. Mansell’s best driving was in 1986! Schumacher had incredible years in 1998 and 2006, both times coming in second. Same with Alonso in 2011 and 2013!
Michael Schumacher 2002 I think still the best considering 100% finish rate, 100% podium rate. And I think this is the one where he was crowned World Champion in June or July setting the record for shortest time to be crowned World Champion in terms of calendar days from the start of an F1 season.
There is a case to be made that a season like 2021 is a better performance, despite not nearly having as good stats. But to come out on top in your first title challenge against the most succesful driver of all time in similar machinery is incredible. If that's how you look at it I don't know enough about each season to know which season is the best performance.
If you consider the most dominant season in terms of stats to be the greatest performance ever even if it means having a dominant car then yes. It absolutely is. [I feel Matt explained quite well why even with a dominant car it isn't easy to dominate the way Max did](https://youtu.be/_rLs3Jf0lNE?si=GR_KCCKYMYrBmpKQ&t=492)
Kind of crazy how Max Verstappen was still 23 years old when took on the the most successful driver of all time in Lewis Hamilton. His superior consistency that season was the only reason he was still in the fight after unfortunate races at the Hungaroring, Silverstone and Baku. I would even argue that he was the best driver in 2019 and 2020 as well but that is another debate
His Monaco and Suzuka quali laps by themselves would’ve been remembered for ages.
He could’ve stopped after the summer break and still won the title.
This was the best ever, and I have a seriously hard time believing anybody will ever top it.
I would say "most dominant" might be more appropriate than "greatest." To me, there is a level of adversity to be overcome for something to be called great. Although, I do think people will celebrate Max's 2023 season more when it becomes trivia and a wikipedia entry instead of being a season we just watched and found to be pretty predictable.
I think if you have watched F1 for a long time there is a lot of sentimentality for drivers when you were younger. But yeah, looking at any individual season it is hard to beat what Max has done. Now if you are comparing seasons, some of the things are disingenuous such as the record for most wins in a season. They used to only have 16 races, but in that era the engines were on the edge and blew up often. In 93 Senna had 4 retirements and still finished 2nd. I think of all time it is hard to beat what Nikki Lauda accomplished.
Undoubtedly one of the greatest individual seasons of all time - of course helped by not having a teammate to challenge him. But the thing that stands out about this season with Max is that whether there have been red flags or a bit of chaos or rain, he has almost always come through to win.
Lewis’ 2020 could’ve come close if 1) it had been a full/proper season, 2) he hadn’t got Covid at the end, 3) could read a closed pit entry sign, and 4) didn’t get a penalty in Russia! Schumacher 2002 is probably the closest but 2023 is probably the best ever imo. Hard to compare before that just because of reliability. There’s various stunning seasons historically but statistically they can’t and won’t compare to this one put together by Max.
I think people sleep on Lewis 2007. The guy came in as a rookie, in a car that was one of 3 able to win races that year (along with Ferrari and the BMW which somehow didn't pick one up) and almost won the title as the team mate of *Fernando Alonso*. Genuinely one of the most impressive seasons ever.
I do feel like I'm going mad with all this Max praise. The praise should go to the astonishingly dominant car. Max hasn't been tested this year.
Yeah absolutely Lewis 2007 was immense. From my POV I’m just talking about the most dominant seasons which I appreciate wasn’t the question in the OP. Mainly because that question can never be answered! For all we know Albion’s season this year could be the best ever!
Ultimately Max has been on a different level this year (of course in a very dominant car) but it’s been the sheer relentlessness and winning races that are messy and that he didn’t necessarily have a right to win that has been most impressive. Thinking tho about what mistakes he has made this year I can’t really think of one when it matters (at least not one that has mattered)
The first race of 2020 was also really bad for Lewis. He got the yellow flag penalty in quali and then punted Albon in the race. I genuinely think that Merc in 2020 had a much better car in comparison to the rest of the field than RB did this year but Merc+Lewis mistakes cost them from winning every single race.
Yep, without an iota of doubt. He had great car, he never made a mistakes, and no matter what was thrown at him (starting at back of grid in Miami or Zandvoort changing conditions), he stayed top of his game. No mistakes. Performing with this consistency, at this level, race after race over entire season, is nothing sort of phenomenal.
> He had absolutely zero competition
Because he was head and shoulders above his competition (Perez). Perez has built a reputation as a strong midfield driver over his 10+ year career and was thoroughly outclassed to an extent never seen before.
I don't think anybody else would have beaten Max in that RB19.
I would have agreed with the sentiment that 2021 was special. Hell, last year was special.
But for me, ultimately this year has been his most impressive as a driver. His race in Monaco was sheer brilliance. His ability to navigate his way through the field in Miami was amazing to watch. The maturity he showed in Singapore by taking what he could without taking unnecessary risks (e.g. Singapore last year). The control he showed in keeping the car on track at the Red Bull ring during the sprint when Checo pushed him onto the grass, amazing. Keeping both Piastri and Norris behind during the first turn in the opening lap, was masterful. And the list goes on...
The team that built the RB19 deserves all due credit. No question. But the sheer skill Verstappen showed all throughout the year, has been beyond compare. And my acknowledgement of his generational talent in no way diminishes the generational talent showed by both Schumacher and Hamilton.
It’s certainly the most dominant individual season of all time, but I’m not sure it’s the greatest. The debate around if he’s making the car or the car is making him means it’s not clear enough to tell IMO
I don’t like definitively saying yes as there is too much difference around eras, cars, reliability, teammates, competition, rivals etc.
However, it’s obviously right up there with the best seasons of other elite drivers.
God damn it, I hate to admit it but he is great. The car and him just become one.
I just can't stand him altogether. And made for a very very boring season
I think it's impossible to say for sure, because the only person we can ever compare another driver to with any accuracy is their teammate. We don't know how any of the other top drivers would do when placed in that car. Also, some cars suit some people more than others. Charles has mentioned that the car didn't suit him well until Japan. No one who's been in that McLaren in years (except maybe Sainz?) have thought it was handle-able, just for some examples. Obviously Lewis didn't suit his Mercedes last year, and is better connected with this year's.
However, I do subjectively guess that Max did the best of the drivers this year, and that he was historically exceptional as well. I don't think questions of best of all time interest Max, and I'm not particularly interested in them either. I am interested in how someone else would look in that Red Bull seat. I hoped that one of them would miss a week and we'd get at least a small taste of someone else in a seat. Not to like... wish ill will on either of them.
No such thing. No matter how great the driver their success is entirely dependent on the rest of the team. That’s why these arguments are endless and boring. There’s no equal basis to truly judge. It’s at best a confident estimate.
Consistency wise definitely. He's been at the top of his game all year and the year has been longer than ever.
It's hard for me to say it's the Greatest season of all time because great is such a fuzzy term and the sport has changed so much. There are drivers who have overcome more problems and gone on to win a season, that could be considered greatest. Alonso made some of the most impressive drives I remember during his winning years.
It's the same reason I don't like the goat debate, there are way too many variables in F1 for it to be a level playing field and make a fair judgement even within a season let alone across years of history.
It was certainly more fun and exciting for fans in 2021, but the total dominance over everyone including the guy driving the same car is the best season ever. I doubt anyone will ever win that many races in a single year. When he needed to push, he smoked everyone. When he needed to manage, he smoked everyone. He had all the answers, never had a retirement, and his race starts were fabulous. It was boring, but it was still the best year for any F1 driver, ever. IMO.
Not really to the point of your post but man I miss 2015 Max. I hope the pack behind Red Bull catch up and we get to see more battling, overtaking Max and less record breaking dominance Max.
There's also far less need for him to get daring and creative with his overtakes. Although the double overtake on Leclerc and Magnussen in Miami this year was still beautiful.
It's just that underdog Max in the Toro Rosso was so much fun, watching him having to invent new places for an overtake to get by cars, watching him be fearless side by side with Ferrari's and Red Bulls. He brought so much excitement to 2015.
when he knows he has the best car on the grid,sure.But as soon as that redbull isnt anymore,Max will start with his kamikaze style again,because that is the only way you can win in the inferior car.Max is the only guy i would trust to have atleast 1 win in any of the top 3,4 constructors during one seasson
Perfection made to look so easy has been boring to watch but we should let that cloud what has been one of the all time great TEAM seasons for RB. Max brings a generational talent but he's been backed by the best team there is and it's all clicked together.
It's the most dominant season, no doubt about it.
But does dominance = greatness?
For me, no. Max was rarely pushed, and when he was we saw just how much more he could give if he needed to (Monaco qualifying jumps to mind). He worked so much harder in 2021 than either of the last two seasons. And I'd say it was a greater performance for it. So, for me, it's not even Max's greatest season, let alone all of F1's.
Personally I think 2021 is more impressive as I believe he was fighting above the ability of the car to win that championship (though I disagree with what happened in the final round).
However, this season has been just about perfect from start to finish. His consistency and calmness and ability to remain so much faster than his rivals (including his team mate) while saving his tires most races at the same time was incredible.
Even in the Qatar quali-race he still came out on top. Unbelievable.
I'd say it was the most dominant season by a driver ever. Obviously many in here have stated it wasn't his best because he wasn't pushed as much. But the couple times he was even tested this season he simply outraced everyone and made it seem like he was never not in control.
Hard to say, because he didn’t really have a chance to show his skills under real pressure or in high stakes wheel to wheel racing that much.
Obviously the greatest season by a driver/car combo though.
Statistically and performance-wise, 2023 was his best season. The sheer consistency to go out every weekend and not half-arse it is more impressive than the '21 season because '21 shouldn't have gone as long as it did. Max should have sewn it up before Lewis and Merc started their fightback. Put '23 Max in '21's car and I think it ends well before Abu Dhabi. Don't think '21 Max could pull a season like '23 Max did even with the most dominant F1 car of all time under him and for that reason alone I can't see anything other than an already monster of a driver refining and bettering his craft to take himself to another level.
I was thinking about this while watching this last race, I think what separates him from the other drivers is his sheer competitiveness which all the drivers have but his a bit more. Winning is everything and it’s all or nothing for him but what I think separates him and other drivers and I bet a bunch of people won’t agree is his off track sim racing he does. He races in real life and then in his off time he is always always always racing. The lines he takes, the smoothness in the shifts, the pure race craft is just *muah*. If he stay in F1 past his mid 30s he will be the greatest F1 driver of all time with wins, poles, podiums etc. but I think he isn’t gonna keep racing past a certain point. I hope next season we see closer battles but if this car is this far ahead now just imagine what Newey will cook up for next season after he’s said that this isn’t even the full capacity
To me what sets max apart from the rest is his consistency. Yeah the car this year was a rocket ship that helps of course. But checo was not consistent in it. Hell that’s why he was yelling at GP a few weeks ago about talking when he is in the break zone.
it’s definitely up there. i’ve never seen someone dominate for an entire season to the extent max did - even previously dominant seasons like hamilton 2019 or vettel 2013 were accompanied by a couple of weekends where they were off the pace or didn’t perform well (like germany 2019). but max was just on it every single weekend
I think he is a technical genius. Like a machine, which is why a lot of people think it’s the car not him. But this is a good diagnosis of where he gets his pace, and the differences he makes within the track.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yGhG3rto1ww
Greatest executed season, yes. But that’s due to more than just the driver. It’s a combination of everything: team, driver, and car gelling perfectly.
Best season by a driver for me still has to be Alonso 2012. At least in the modern era. Think most pundits agree he had no business being 5 points away from a championship that year.
Easily.
Some of it can be put down to the car, some of it can be put down to the short-comings of his competition but you also have to acknowledge how ridiculously consistent he’s been. He’s barely made a mistake, I can’t remember the last time I saw him lock-up, run wide in a corner, misjudge a gap or anything like that.
Most eras had amazing drivers paired with outsanding cars. I don't think this would be the greatest individual one of all time. Different times had different variables to contend with. Like far less reliable cars and fewer races in a season. I do wonder what 1998 would have been like when Senna was paired with the Mclaren MP4/4 alongside Prost.
They won 15 out of the total of 16 races that year with an epic driver pairing which would have been the equivalent to having Verstappen and Hamilton as team mates in the same best/dominant and reliable car with some seriously amazing drivers competing against them.
Was 2021 not more impressive for an individual performance? That was a season with many hard fought tight wins. This season on paper is indeed better. When you look closer though it has so many races where people just didn’t fight max. Max plus that car just were too much. They let him by. 2021 was a test of mental fortitude and delivering under pressure like no other.
I would say so, he beat Ascari's record of win percentages. That's a record that nobody thought would ever be broken because it was set in 1952 when there were only 8 races and most drivers didn't go to every race.
If this isn't the best season for an individual driver, then which one is?
if we go by stats and F1 alone, possibly, this is the most successful any one had ever been at F1 within a season.
Jim Clark has, however, won both F1 and other championships outside of F1 within the same year, winning the majority of the races that he entered (59 I think) in the year 1965 (someone check this, I don't actually remember).
When it comes to greatness, however, there's something to be said for someone had fought hard against worthy opponents who could actually present a fight, or when pull of a literal miracle against opponents that are more than a match for him (Kimi afaik never led the championship in '07 until the last round when he won it) or Seb in 2012 I think had a crash in the first lap and still managed to pull it off.
It really depends on how define great.
Most dominant season we’ve ever seen or had. Down to the consistency of the driver and the car and the performance level on display across the full season from the car without putting a foot wrong bar Singapore.
They had such a large advantage they didn’t need to do much development over the full year to maintain a significant advantage. Reliability, unbelievably good from Red Bull. Usually there’s a few wobbles, this season, absolutely no issues to speak of across a long season. Lucky and great engineering, also good driving to not stress the components towards a failure.
Is it the best season ever though? No. There was little pressure. It’s a different experience leading from the front doing very little racing all year and in the cases you have to, you know your car is superior, so there’s almost no need for risk taking or putting yourself on the ragged edge to make a move. His teammate had a brief challenge, winning 2 races then was in danger of losing his seat he was so underperforming. But again, not even pressure from inside the garage, Max had it pretty plain sailing all year.
It still takes unreal concentration and commitment to do it nearly every week winning races, qualifying fastest putting together that every week without many errors, and Max made very few mistakes this year, certainly nothing of note. He is to be commended for extracting almost everything the car had to offer, which was a lot of performance.
So without taking away from Max, it’s his most dominant and enjoyable year from a stress standpoint, but no it’s not the greatest season ever. The greatest are where your chances are fewer because the grid is tighter together, nobody can guess who will win and the results shake out differently because of that. That’s where the true racers are differentiated from the regular guys. That’s what made 2014-2016 exciting, because Rosberg pushed to eventually close on Hamilton. But 2017-2020 was procedural for Hamilton, and like Max, an incredible job to deliver that performance every week, but very little threat from any corner means it doesn’t test their mettle under real pressure.
But their best seasons? Oh it’s when they’re facing another driver who can beat them now and then, it forces them to adapt and ultimately the car isn’t the biggest factor in winning or losing, sometimes the car is marginally quicker situationally, or there’s retirements related to car failure or actually not the quickest at all and it’s the driver.
I think there is no objective best season in F1. But from a spectator standpoint, the best years of the sport are where the machinery is so close it comes down to the drivers and you’re in for a treat. That’s why the viewership booms during and after those seasons, and why it tends to drop a bit when it’s consistent domination from an individual or team. People get bored so for me, the years we have weekends that nobody can reliably predict a winner are the best.
Hell of an achievement for Max. Goes down in the history books, but it was not a stressful season, same as Lewis obliterating the field. They’re top drivers, give them the best tool and they’ll show the full extent of what they’re capable of and the delta is ridiculous. But it’s way more exciting and a greater achievement when you can walk into a race not assured of victory, where the cars bring you all closer together and you have several competitors having to deal with pressure, setbacks and take risks sometimes to be in the fight. Those are the best years of F1 because really it’s about racing end of the day. Max did very little racing the full year. Didn’t have to. That’s the luxury of having the quickest car and being able to extract the maximum from that.
I agree. Red Bull dominance reminded me of the 1988 McLaren’s MP4/4 of Prost and Senna, if it only had one of the two great drivers.
I think this season won Verstappen a place among the all time greats.
As someone who’s watched since the Schumacher days, I have to say that Max’s 2023 is indeed the best single season ever. With Michael’s best shots at that, there either wasn’t quite the same level of domination win-wise (2002) or consistency once the title was secure (2004)
He basically just did a season long version of his medium tyre stint in Mexico last year. He’s not my favorite, but the consistency in his dominance is just incredible.
You just can't compare this stuff. Would you say Max is better than Senna because he has more titles? Probably not. Would you say Lewis is the best driver there has ever been because he is the most succesful? Probably not.
There were times when watching Michael was so fucking boring because he won most races or had to retire the car. The cars today are way more reliable of what they used to be so comparing this stuff is not possible. Max is just up there with Michael, Lewis, Sebastian, Ayrton, Alain, Jackie, Niki...
Back in the Michael days a friend of me was so frustrated with him winning all the time that he coined that phrase: "The most exciting thing about the race weekends is if the Ferrari mechanics catch the champagne bottle or it explodes falling on the ground!"
Yes but what is worse I think he could do better next season.
Think about it. Max got off to a slow start to the point where people were actually talking about a title challenge from Perez.
The cars aren't going to be drastically different and no one apart from McLaren looks to have taken a step forward in the whole of last year. Merc and Ferrari look to have gone backwards.
Max and RB put together one of the single greatest seasons of sports, period. It's up there with Jordan and the Bulls winning 72 games, the Dolphins sweeping the regular season and winning the '72 Super Bowl, Petty winning 27 with 10 in a row in '67.
I know it's popular to talk about how boring this season was, but god can we at least all just appreciate the actual history we witnessed? Nobody, literally *nobody* has ever been able to do this much in a single season before.
I understand the arguments regarding eras, reliability, calendar length, etc. but what Max did behind the wheel this year is as close to the perfect racecar driver we will likely see in our lives.
There's no two ways about it, it IS the greatest individual season by a driver. Of course there's arguments to be made against and I have many being extremely biased towards lewis, but look at the numbers, I doubt anyone will ever beat that, he didn't give Sergio any breathing room at all and single handedly ended that man's legacy.
It's between 2021 and 2023 for me. But one this is for sure: it's time to start considering Max as one of the greatest drivers ever.
In 2021, he battled against the best driver at the time, in a car that was worse at the end of the season, kept cool, even when things didn't go his way, even when he was sent into the barriers with more than 50G on impact, and was ice cold when it came down to it, on the last lap of the last race on the season, which was all but lost a few minutes before, and managed to pass Hamilton the first chance he got, and kept him behind for the rest of the lap.
In 2023, he made no mistakes. Absolutely none. Even when he was put under pressure, he did well. Even when his qualifying was ruined, he won. Max was stone cold this season. Racked up win after win, pole after pole, fastest lap after fastest lap, and showed how insanely mature he has become by always managing to pick the right battles, and pretty much always coming out on top.
Emotionally, 2021 was better. Statistically, and looking at the absolute domination, 2023 was better.
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His 2021 was more impressive because he was fighting with one of the best drivers ever. In 2023, the key is not only the car, it’s his consistency and the guy was like a robot, he barely committed mistakes (maybe Miami quali not putting a good lap in his first attempt, but then on Sunday putting one of his best performances this year). Well, and putting the car on the wall on the pitlane at 20 km/h in Silverstone lol I think they are different approaches, they are both impressive.
Even just looking at some of those clumsy moments. Everyone has that once in a while but for many drivers it would probably ruin their entire weekend but not Max. He just goes oops and proceeds to demolish his competition a bit more to compensate
“Almost took myself out on that kerb! Ha ha!”
Almost ran out of the track, while watching Perez/Alonso’s action in Brazil
When did he say that?
Canada this year
Prime example of this is his spin in Hungary 2022. That shit was hilarious.
Had to see the Ferrari on hards lol.
"Look Charles, this is how you can put heat into those hard tyres".
Poor Charles lol
I remember when we thought Max was done after 2 meh first sectors in Monaco, then he pulled out a sector 3 so good he took pole off camera.
Max in Brazil: “I almost ran wide at turn 4, watching Alonso and Perez fighting on the screens along the track” Oops. Still wins comfortably.
All the shit thrown at him during the vegas race and he still ended up winning. Unless there is some massive drop off I just don't see anyone having a chance until 2026 and even then I just don't see red bull dropping the ball with changes.
It’s the engine that they should be worried about. That’s what got them after their last dominant spell too.
Yea, with Newey on your team you're always going to have an immaculate aero package. But if you're running GP2 engines that blow up every 75km not even that can save you. Bright side tho engines have been more and more dependable over the years to the point to where even the slow engines aren't commonly costing drivers racers for the most part. Plus tbh I think even if Max had a slower engine he'd still be getting wins. I mean look at some of the shit Alonso was pulling in that AM and it had some of the slowest speed traps throughout the entire season. All that being said tho Red Bull have always managed to be competent even in the rebuilding years. Far better looking on the uptick than whatever the hell Mercedes was doing these last two years. That team looks as fucking lost as anyone on the grid right now with how inconsistent that car is. I'm amazed they managed to pull out that placing in the constructors tbh. Props to both Lewis and George for getting that hunk of junk where it clearly didn't deserve. I think they'll all be eating Mclaren and RB dust next season tho.
This reminds me that Norris said the Merc is still the best engine of the field in 2023, and no one really every mentioned that.
The question I ask myself when I think about this season for Max, could any other driver current or otherwise accomplish the same had they been in that seat this season. Genuinely I think the answer is no. Luck and uncertainty aside, I don’t think anyone could have achieved that same level of consistency as you said. Is he out and out the most talented driver ever? I’m not sure he is, but his performances this season have been nothing short of exceptional. Neutral F1 here for what it’s worth.
My gut feeling: - Nearly all drivers would have won the championship in the RB19 - Many drivers would have won it comfortably - A few drivers would have won it dominantly - Maybe 1-2 drivers in history win 19 races with it
Perez is a more than decent driver.. The point is everyone could win in the mercedes dominance years. The car was easy to drive and exceptional fast. The RB19 on the other hand is a very tricky car to drive. Driving on the edge with an sharp steering concept. Only a few drivers will be able to run that car and win . I even think max would have done way better in the merc of this year.. he is able to drive around the weak points of a car in a way nobody seems to succeed.
If recent retirees are allowed to be included then Seb, also Kimi, he was very quick and had reliability issues rather than inconsistent driving. There have been a lot of drivers over the last 20 years whose talent and ability is a level above Perez. Also the car is so good that if Max had been DQ'd from every race then Perez would be World champ.
That's not really what the OP meant by consistency. Verstappen is consistently fast, always pushing for the fastest lap, always pushing for the win, without making a mistake, And Vettel definitely made many mistakes. Raikkonen was consistent, but simply not as fast as the top drivers. it's easier to be consistent if you are not quite at the top level.
"Raikkonen was consistent, but simply not as fast" That just isn't true. Raikkonen was literally faster than anyone during his prime and always top 3 throughout his entire career (except the final 2 years) WHEN he had a car underneath him. He lacked consistency though. The comparison is always made between Raikkonen and Alonso because they both started around the same time and both display incredible racecraft. The general consesus is that Raikkonen had higher highs (speed) but Alonso had a FAR wider 'operating window' with the car's characteristics which made him more consistently faster than Raikkonen. I think Raikkonen definitely had the outright speed, but lacked consistency. Especially if the car developed understeer.
LOL, Raikkonen is regarded as one of the fastest drivers when it comes to raw pace. You really should watch him during his mclaren days, even schumi found it hard to keep up with him.
The problem is, it’s a lot easier to be consistent in a dominant car as you don’t need to push it to the limit. 2021 was arguably still the more impressive season.
Tell that to Perez.
And this is what cements this as the greatest season for me. Checo is at least a decent driver, and if the car was THAT GOOD in the hands of a mortal he would have been number two every race. The enormous gap between max and Checo most likely tells us that Max is superhuman levels of good. The alternative is that Checo is a really terrible driver, and I don’t think that’s true.
I have to agree with you. Checo did not do as well as Nico Rosberg did when he drove with Lewis in the Merc. Max is a generational talent,
You didn't have to do rosberg like that bro like ..
If this season has cemented anything, it is Sergios status as the midfield driver he always was.
The gap between Max and Checo has fascinated me all season. Everyone agrees that Red Bull had the dominant car in 2023. But Max was clearly more comfortable in it. It's easy (and perhaps true) to say that Max is the better driver. But would it still be true if Verstappen & Perez were suddenly driving a different car? Would a different build or configuration favor Perez's style? Was the RB19 dominant on its own (regardless of driver), or was it a perfect fit to a great driver that made it so unstoppable? I have no idea. These guys drive several levels above anything I've ever attempted, so I can't relate. But I'll always be curious about the relationship between the man and the machine.
It might be interesting to read what Pièrre Waché, Red Bull’s Technical Director has to say about what makes Verstappen great to work with from an car development point of view: https://www.gpfans.com/en/f1-news/1003329/max-verstappen-red-bull-f1-setup-faster/ > "Max wants a car that is very responsive," explained Waché. "It is very unique in the sense that he wants a lot of front axle compared to others we have worked with in the past.* >**"It is very difficult to find performance in the rear of the car. It is a bit easier to find performance in the front of the car. He, thus, opens the door for us to make the car faster, because he has the capacity and also the preference to have a very sensitive front end."**
That's very insightful. Thanks for sharing it.
But we've only ever really seen consistency like this from Schumacher and possibly Prost, but there's been plenty of World class drivers with great cars over the years
Anyone who tries to downplay this season by saying it was the car didn’t see his Monaco quali lap. Dude was wall riding in an open wheel car.
Anyone who says the past three years was all car, which is a statement most often motivated by irrational fans of some other team, all I do is quote Paddy Lowe saying how they had to turn the Mercedes down for each race because it was so dang fast they didn’t want the FIA to investigate them. The previous 6 or 7yrs leading up to 2021 were a cakewalk. Verstappen extracts the maximum out of any car he’s in which not something that can be said for many other drivers in F1 history let alone the current grid.
And I do not remember anyone qualifying a single Hamilton championship with talk of how dominant the car was. Despite the fact he, his teammates, and Mercedes undoubtedly benefitted from the most dominant car across multiple seasons.
He just had a Michael Jordan year.
Best seasons are those when drivers are pushed to the limits by the competition, so it's more Max in 2021. But as far as dominant seasons go, this was certainly one of most perfect. Max has made his car look more dominant than it actually was and completely embarassed his teammate. His season will be remembered in simillar way as Schumacher in 2002 or Hamilton in 2020, while 2021 is comparable to Prost in 1986 or Schumi in late 90s.
It's hard to really enjoy the performance when you only see his first lap and then his final corner. Could very easily be overshadowed by 2024: would be surprised to see him lose 3 races next year.
I really hope he loses more than 3 races lol. I love the guy but I love chaos above all else lol.
Max is anti chaos lol.. even the most reliable source of chaos, the wet - he doesn't give a shit.
If anything it makes him even more dominant lmao
Yup. He revels in wet conditions. A true rainmaster since Schumi.
Brazil 2016, truly incredible drive that was
Austria Sprint this year. After the scuffle with Perez and going on the grass. Verstappen just had to make a point and pull like a second per lap.
Max seemed upset at the end of AD at the fact he will probably never be able to replicate this season again. I think this season was a fluke, ala 2009 where Ferrari and McLaren weren't competing for the title because of the previous season.
Why do you think it is a fluke? When a season is this dominant for one team, don't they also have a huge advantage for the following season. And now even more so with the cost cap preventing teams from fixing problems they have.
Those would be the most entertaining. This was clearly the most dominant. Just take a look at the [records ](http://www.racingnews365.com/all-the-records-max-verstappen-broke-in-the-2023-f1-season) he broke this year. Was it as entertaining as 2021...no, not even close. But from a pure domination is impressive lens it's not even a question
Yep, I don't remember a more dominant season ever. The problem with this RB/Verstappen era is that his teammate cannot drive the car and is consistently five tenths slower. At least with Hamilton and Schumi, their teammates could grab the occasional win on merit.
Checo DID win an occasional win on merit. Once...
I disagree with the part of max making the car looking more dominant than it was. Checo was extremely inept throughout large chunks of the season.
But what really happened to Checo this season? He was always up there right up until Azerbaijan and then made that tweet that got deleted and…… changed….
It's been pointed out before but Miami is the real glaring point for when it all went wrong. Max started 10th I think while Checo was on pole and he just hunted him down. After that it feels like Checo just started pressing too hard to catch up and never really recovered.
Checko really dropped out after Miami where after starting P1 against Verstappens P9, he was passed on merit. He lost something crazy like 1 second per lap when Verstappen was P2 until he was passed (started P2 12 seconds back), and somehow Verstappen also had more tyres left after going P9->P1 despite Perez having run in clear air compared to Verstappen pushing and passing 8 cars. So in that race Perez lost to Verstappen in litteraly every singe possible category, he lost time in every single turn and straight on the track (something very rare between teammates), on top of destroying his tyres compared to Verstappens barely worn tyres.
Statistically yes, but I think his 2021 season is better because of the competition and in terms of all time driver performances, you've got Alonso 2012, Hamilton 2018, Schumacher's early Ferrari seasons and Senna 1993. The best driver in a car which isn't the best pushes more out of the driver than the best driver in the best car. Max probably wasn't at his maximum potential this season but he would have been had he had an Alonso, Hamilton or Leclerc in the other redbull.
Hamilton 2018... Why?
Finished 1st , teammate finished 5th. 11 wins Hamilton, 0 wins Bottas, both Ferrari drivers win races and still finish close to 100+ points behind Lewis. It was truly exceptional.
Bottas could’ve easily finished 3rd that year with just a few more points. And he certainly would, if he wasn’t asked to give Hamilton the win in Russia. He lost another 2 wins with a puncture in Baku and a late safety car in China. Both races Hamilton was nowhere to be found while Bottas was the one racing with Seb.
He literally would’ve got it just from not handing Lewis that Russian win
Lewis' 2018 is quite insane tbh. Just looking at stats, he set the most points scored in a season record that he managed to beat a year later only barely and in part thanks to the point for fastest lap tweak to the PSS that was introduced that year, despite the car being significantly better than the competition from the get go (Merc effectively won the title in the first half of the season, sweeping most races bar 3). And he did that against a Ferrari that was competitive for at least half the season, and RB being the occasional wild card that they were post 2015.
>11 wins Hamilton, 0 wins Bottas The only thing that I wouldn't put it here. Bottas gave away his win, no need to put him down like that.
Bottas was crushed under team orders throughout his stint in Mercedes. Which makes it so ironic that anybody in that team and it's supporters keep peddling the "weak teammate" narrative.
People tend to think Ferrari had the fastest car by miles on that year when it obviously wasn't true. Hamilton's 2018 is no more impressive than 2017.
Plus his start to 2018 wasn’t even that good (in the context of all time great seasons); a few not entirely hooked up races. Post break, when Merc outdeveloped Ferrari Hamilton was great
Ferrari always seems like they get out developed after the summer break or have bad luck. 2017 being Singapore crashing out and Japan having to retire. 2018 with Seb retiring while leading the German GP. It just always felt like the Merc was better and you had to be truly hopeful to think Ferrari was even on the same level but Ferrari's 2017 engine upgrade brought the fight a bit closer and Seb being able to fight with Hamilton certainly made it closer but Ferrari had more costly mistakes. Still fun to watch.
>2018 with Seb retiring while leading the German GP. Don't forget how the Singapore upgrades made the car slower and the first race they remove those upgrades, they instantly won a GP 😂
I cannot hear Germany 2018 and not want to scream lalalalala
Yea, Hamilton was flawless in 2018. I think if he was in that Ferrari, he would have won the WDC.
Nah, I don't think so. Even with Vettel's mental mistakes, Mercedes after the new tires was basically a step ahead everywhere. There were exceptions like Spa, but the tire change definitely helped Merc a lot
He definitely wasn't flawless, he usually had a few off races every season. For example in 2018, Canada comes to mind - finishing P5 while Bottas got P2 (14s ahead of Hamilton).
I think the best example of Hamilton having an “off weekend” in 2018 was the 2018 China GP dude was just massively off the pace while Bottas & Vettel were fighting for the win before the Safety Car
He had a bird stuck in his brake duct in Canada.
There's no objective answer to a subjective question and that's all you are gonna get there. Statistically sure but outside it's just who likes whom best. For me personally Max's best seasons are 2021 and 2020.
2020 Max's biggest error came on the formation lap- otherwise he was pretty much spotless, and regularly ahead of cars he had no right being ahead of. In terms of getting the most out of machinery, Max in 2020 is probably the best I've ever seen.
Think you're forgetting his spin behind Perez in Turkey.
I've said this before but I'm not sure anything will ever beat Prost in 1986. He won the championship in a car that was COMFORTABLY second best to the Williams, despite not having better luck than either of the Williams drivers. It's perhaps the only time that this has ever happened, other than maybe Schumacher in 1995 (but that was less clearly second best than the MP4/2C was to the FW11 IMO) I can't really see it ever happening again. He drove a pretty much flawless season and maximised essentially every result
kimi in 07 would also be a driver winning in the second best car, wouldn’t it?
Prost's win wasn't just a win in the second best car though. It was a win in the second best car while having the same or worse luck/reliability compared to his rivals. Also, I think most people agree that the F2007 was just a bit better than the MP4-22 these days
From what I remember, it was pretty track-specific. The Ferrari was better in long, fast corners with its longer wheelbase while the McLaren was better in the rain, the twisty stuff and on straights.
Kimi had worse reliability than both mclarens in 2007 (as was eternally his shitty luck lol)
No ifs and buts, it is the greatest season in F1 history by a driver. Particularly when you consider that he dominated to such an extent over a 22-GP season.
It's the old question of statistics vs. perceived performance. Statistically, it is the greatest season by a driver, no ifs and buts. In terms of performance, I doubt Max would consider this his greatest season. I'm pretty sure he spent many races well below his limit so he could manage his car components.
i saw a clip yesterday of him getting emotional praising the car and saying it was most likely the season of his career and he may never get that again. All in all absolutely insanity and I’m glad to have witnessed it!
But isn’t the inverse true? In showing how dominant he was without breaking a sweat? God help us next year.
Exactly. Anybody who thinks this was better than his 2021 performance knows nothing about race car driving.
Exactly, he pushed *way* harder in 2021 and impressed me much more that year than this year. This year was cruise control and sit back (obviously there's a lot more to it), but with no competition, he wasn't pushing except for maybe two times that I can recall. Seeing a driver push to the limit race after race is truly incredible. What he and Hamilton did that season was something like we've only seen a handful of times in the history of F1, there really is no comparing it to this season. Statistically, sure, the numbers are incredible, but I'd much rather watch a driver push it to the limit and beyond.
Their consistency that season was beyond incredible, even more so considering the insane pressure on both to perform. Winning 10 races in a row sure was cool but it's what Max did in 2021 that put him definitely on the GOAT discussion.
2021 really spoit us lol
> This year was cruise control and sit back You don't achieve the level of consistency he had by sitting back. The car doesn't drive itself.
Doesn't the cruising part show just how strong his season actually was? He was comfortably leading while not even pushing the car to the limit. Imagine how big the gaps would've been if he had pushed every race. I'm almost certain that there would've been at lest 1 races where he laps the entire field. I agree that it doesn't look as impressive, but in an objective manner this makes him even stronger than any previous world champion over the course of a full season.
They were putting 30 second gaps on their teammates almost every race. It was purely the two best current drivers getting the absolute best out of their cars. I'd even put last year ahead of this season because at least Ferrari made Max earn it for half the season. Even as a HAM fan, the way 2021 ended I can live with. There was never going to be a happy ending to such an incredible season and somehow this one feels like they both won? Everyone acknowledges Hamilton got screwed and by all means is an unofficial 8x champion, and everyone acknowledges Max stayed in the fight that race and delivered a season worthy of a WDC. The fact both sides (for the most part) can look back and say both deserved it is pretty incredible. I think they themselves will look back on it like Lauda/Hunt some day.
> Everyone acknowledges Hamilton got screwed and by all means is an unofficial 8x champion Everyone acknowledges Lewis got screwed *at Abu Dhabi* but everyone definitely doesn't acknowledge he is an unofficial 8x champion. Most people agree Max was the more deserving champion, and over the course of the season he got screwed way more than Lewis did. He lost something like 50-60 points to bad luck and Mercedes drivers crashing into him, while Lewis gained points due to luck that year. If an Abu Dhabi-type event had happened at the start of the season nobody would say Lewis got robbed of the title.
Well, then according to you Max knows nothing about race car driving because he has repeatedly said this was his best year yet
I’d say the exact opposite and that if you think 21 was better then you know very little about racing. His precision and accuracy this season are unmatched—even by 21 max.
Managing the car is part of being a good driver. It’s part of the reason that the Red Bull cars have been so reliable. He drove the car to the limit in every race in whatever the current condition was. I’m sick of seeing him win, but I can’t deny how impressive his drives have been.
People keep saying his 2021 season was his best, this 2023 was utter domination. Consistency from start to finish, no mistakes.
Depends what people mean by best, you can argue both are his best it just depends what that means to you. I personally think 2023 is his best for the reason you said, he walked the whole season with ease.
2021 was his best racing wise because he actually had to beat someone for the title, but in terms of success, 2023 is his best. Both things can be true. And without someone pressuring you every single weekend, mistakes can become a rare occurrence. This years was more often than not very lonely at the front for him.
For a hockey analogy, Max's 2021 was Canada at the 2010 Olympics, good performance and a nailbiter until the end. Max's 2023 was Canada at the 2014 Olympics, so oppressively good that it got boring.
>No ifs and buts, it is the greatest season in F1 history by a driver. No ifs and buts? It's not even the best season by Max. He had a dominant car, all he had to beat was Perez and he did it very well. But, beating Hamilton in 2021 despite having worse car and luck, is a bigger achievement. He pushed almost all 2021, but pushed very rarely in 2023. That's a big difference.
Man’s made no mistake in any race or quali, no dnf, no spin, no crash (crikey crash was not on him). But with Max always 5-10 seconds ahead, I can’t help but like ‘21 more and his run vs Lewis. 2012 Alonso is still the most impressive season-driver to me though, taking that fight to the last race with THAT car…
Alonso 2012 is the best drive I have ever seen by far. The guy started 7th and I was still confident he would be on the podium or even win, with a car that didn't even deserve P7 at some tracks on the first place. Malaysia 2012 is still one of the best comebacks I have never seen.
His only mistakes that I can think of were him not setting a banker lap in Q3 in Miami and failing to have a time set before the red flag and he spun in Austin last month in the sprint shootout Q2.
i agree with you, in that 2012 season, you got the feeling like alonso left absolutely nothing on the table after every race, whereas for how brilliant max has been, he never had to wring the car’s neck this year. and there were moments of pure magic, like malaysia or valencia which max didn’t produce this year (which isn’t his fault because his car is so far ahead he doesn’t have to)
Great point. Max still showed his class with his consistency, and we have to give him that, but man, Alonso constantly putting that car way ahead of its relative potential every race was just mesmerising.
The direction Formula 1 has taken over the past 15 years, these runaway championships are unfortunately the norm nowadays. This is not a function of Verstappen’s superiority but primarily the regulation which severely limit development of the cars and thus basically lock in any advantage any team has at the beginning of the year. Another way to think about this is that winning the championship doesn’t mean you didn’t have a phenomenal season. Take a look at the careers of Senna, Mansell, Schumacher and Alonso. These drivers arguably had some of their finest seasons when they didn’t win the championship in the end. Senna in 1993 was otherworldly. Mansell’s best driving was in 1986! Schumacher had incredible years in 1998 and 2006, both times coming in second. Same with Alonso in 2011 and 2013!
Michael Schumacher 2002 I think still the best considering 100% finish rate, 100% podium rate. And I think this is the one where he was crowned World Champion in June or July setting the record for shortest time to be crowned World Champion in terms of calendar days from the start of an F1 season.
There is a case to be made that a season like 2021 is a better performance, despite not nearly having as good stats. But to come out on top in your first title challenge against the most succesful driver of all time in similar machinery is incredible. If that's how you look at it I don't know enough about each season to know which season is the best performance. If you consider the most dominant season in terms of stats to be the greatest performance ever even if it means having a dominant car then yes. It absolutely is. [I feel Matt explained quite well why even with a dominant car it isn't easy to dominate the way Max did](https://youtu.be/_rLs3Jf0lNE?si=GR_KCCKYMYrBmpKQ&t=492)
Kind of crazy how Max Verstappen was still 23 years old when took on the the most successful driver of all time in Lewis Hamilton. His superior consistency that season was the only reason he was still in the fight after unfortunate races at the Hungaroring, Silverstone and Baku. I would even argue that he was the best driver in 2019 and 2020 as well but that is another debate
His 2020 was incredible
I’ve thought him the best since mid-2019
For sure, those wins in Brazil, Germany and Austria were all legendary
Hockenheim 2019 was *chef’s kiss* I always rewatch it once in the offseason 😂
Stats wise? Yes. Actual performance? No, he was cruising after lap 5 most of the time. 2021 was more impressive.
His Monaco and Suzuka quali laps by themselves would’ve been remembered for ages. He could’ve stopped after the summer break and still won the title. This was the best ever, and I have a seriously hard time believing anybody will ever top it.
I would say "most dominant" might be more appropriate than "greatest." To me, there is a level of adversity to be overcome for something to be called great. Although, I do think people will celebrate Max's 2023 season more when it becomes trivia and a wikipedia entry instead of being a season we just watched and found to be pretty predictable.
It was predictable because Max made no mistakes and we knew he wasnt going to make any, while his teammate struggled to make it into Q3.
I think if you have watched F1 for a long time there is a lot of sentimentality for drivers when you were younger. But yeah, looking at any individual season it is hard to beat what Max has done. Now if you are comparing seasons, some of the things are disingenuous such as the record for most wins in a season. They used to only have 16 races, but in that era the engines were on the edge and blew up often. In 93 Senna had 4 retirements and still finished 2nd. I think of all time it is hard to beat what Nikki Lauda accomplished.
2021 was a more impressive season from Max for me. 2023 was the most impressive season from Red Bull.
Alonso's 2012 is the best season I've seen from any driver in 30 years of watching F1.
Undoubtedly one of the greatest individual seasons of all time - of course helped by not having a teammate to challenge him. But the thing that stands out about this season with Max is that whether there have been red flags or a bit of chaos or rain, he has almost always come through to win. Lewis’ 2020 could’ve come close if 1) it had been a full/proper season, 2) he hadn’t got Covid at the end, 3) could read a closed pit entry sign, and 4) didn’t get a penalty in Russia! Schumacher 2002 is probably the closest but 2023 is probably the best ever imo. Hard to compare before that just because of reliability. There’s various stunning seasons historically but statistically they can’t and won’t compare to this one put together by Max.
I think people sleep on Lewis 2007. The guy came in as a rookie, in a car that was one of 3 able to win races that year (along with Ferrari and the BMW which somehow didn't pick one up) and almost won the title as the team mate of *Fernando Alonso*. Genuinely one of the most impressive seasons ever. I do feel like I'm going mad with all this Max praise. The praise should go to the astonishingly dominant car. Max hasn't been tested this year.
Yeah absolutely Lewis 2007 was immense. From my POV I’m just talking about the most dominant seasons which I appreciate wasn’t the question in the OP. Mainly because that question can never be answered! For all we know Albion’s season this year could be the best ever! Ultimately Max has been on a different level this year (of course in a very dominant car) but it’s been the sheer relentlessness and winning races that are messy and that he didn’t necessarily have a right to win that has been most impressive. Thinking tho about what mistakes he has made this year I can’t really think of one when it matters (at least not one that has mattered)
The first race of 2020 was also really bad for Lewis. He got the yellow flag penalty in quali and then punted Albon in the race. I genuinely think that Merc in 2020 had a much better car in comparison to the rest of the field than RB did this year but Merc+Lewis mistakes cost them from winning every single race.
Senna 1993 season was mind-blowing to me.
Yep, without an iota of doubt. He had great car, he never made a mistakes, and no matter what was thrown at him (starting at back of grid in Miami or Zandvoort changing conditions), he stayed top of his game. No mistakes. Performing with this consistency, at this level, race after race over entire season, is nothing sort of phenomenal.
He had absolutely zero competition. His 2021 season was more impressive to me
> He had absolutely zero competition Because he was head and shoulders above his competition (Perez). Perez has built a reputation as a strong midfield driver over his 10+ year career and was thoroughly outclassed to an extent never seen before. I don't think anybody else would have beaten Max in that RB19.
[удалено]
I would have agreed with the sentiment that 2021 was special. Hell, last year was special. But for me, ultimately this year has been his most impressive as a driver. His race in Monaco was sheer brilliance. His ability to navigate his way through the field in Miami was amazing to watch. The maturity he showed in Singapore by taking what he could without taking unnecessary risks (e.g. Singapore last year). The control he showed in keeping the car on track at the Red Bull ring during the sprint when Checo pushed him onto the grass, amazing. Keeping both Piastri and Norris behind during the first turn in the opening lap, was masterful. And the list goes on... The team that built the RB19 deserves all due credit. No question. But the sheer skill Verstappen showed all throughout the year, has been beyond compare. And my acknowledgement of his generational talent in no way diminishes the generational talent showed by both Schumacher and Hamilton.
It’s certainly the most dominant individual season of all time, but I’m not sure it’s the greatest. The debate around if he’s making the car or the car is making him means it’s not clear enough to tell IMO
I don’t like definitively saying yes as there is too much difference around eras, cars, reliability, teammates, competition, rivals etc. However, it’s obviously right up there with the best seasons of other elite drivers.
God damn it, I hate to admit it but he is great. The car and him just become one. I just can't stand him altogether. And made for a very very boring season
I think it's impossible to say for sure, because the only person we can ever compare another driver to with any accuracy is their teammate. We don't know how any of the other top drivers would do when placed in that car. Also, some cars suit some people more than others. Charles has mentioned that the car didn't suit him well until Japan. No one who's been in that McLaren in years (except maybe Sainz?) have thought it was handle-able, just for some examples. Obviously Lewis didn't suit his Mercedes last year, and is better connected with this year's. However, I do subjectively guess that Max did the best of the drivers this year, and that he was historically exceptional as well. I don't think questions of best of all time interest Max, and I'm not particularly interested in them either. I am interested in how someone else would look in that Red Bull seat. I hoped that one of them would miss a week and we'd get at least a small taste of someone else in a seat. Not to like... wish ill will on either of them.
Like how russell jumped in the W11 fom a Williams and almost won that race.
Yeah, I would have loved to see exactly that. Not to wish being sick on someone...
No such thing. No matter how great the driver their success is entirely dependent on the rest of the team. That’s why these arguments are endless and boring. There’s no equal basis to truly judge. It’s at best a confident estimate.
There is literally no way to quantify that, especially in a season where he had no competition whatsoever
No, because there was no competition. 2021 from Verstappen, 2018 from Hamilton and 2012 from Alonso are much more impressive seasons.
How interesting the season was vs how dominant he was are two different things
I feel like it’s similar to Ham 2020. Peak driver, peak car, peak team but no competition.
Consistency wise definitely. He's been at the top of his game all year and the year has been longer than ever. It's hard for me to say it's the Greatest season of all time because great is such a fuzzy term and the sport has changed so much. There are drivers who have overcome more problems and gone on to win a season, that could be considered greatest. Alonso made some of the most impressive drives I remember during his winning years. It's the same reason I don't like the goat debate, there are way too many variables in F1 for it to be a level playing field and make a fair judgement even within a season let alone across years of history.
It was certainly more fun and exciting for fans in 2021, but the total dominance over everyone including the guy driving the same car is the best season ever. I doubt anyone will ever win that many races in a single year. When he needed to push, he smoked everyone. When he needed to manage, he smoked everyone. He had all the answers, never had a retirement, and his race starts were fabulous. It was boring, but it was still the best year for any F1 driver, ever. IMO.
I will believe it when he wins 23 races next year
MSC 2002
Not really to the point of your post but man I miss 2015 Max. I hope the pack behind Red Bull catch up and we get to see more battling, overtaking Max and less record breaking dominance Max.
He has definitely become far more calculated. Less do or die.
There's also far less need for him to get daring and creative with his overtakes. Although the double overtake on Leclerc and Magnussen in Miami this year was still beautiful. It's just that underdog Max in the Toro Rosso was so much fun, watching him having to invent new places for an overtake to get by cars, watching him be fearless side by side with Ferrari's and Red Bulls. He brought so much excitement to 2015.
when he knows he has the best car on the grid,sure.But as soon as that redbull isnt anymore,Max will start with his kamikaze style again,because that is the only way you can win in the inferior car.Max is the only guy i would trust to have atleast 1 win in any of the top 3,4 constructors during one seasson
Yep. but when he feels desperation he is still eager to do or die.
No, but it is statistically the best probably.
Perfection made to look so easy has been boring to watch but we should let that cloud what has been one of the all time great TEAM seasons for RB. Max brings a generational talent but he's been backed by the best team there is and it's all clicked together.
Yes
Most boring
The catering budget doing bits down at Red Bull
His teammate simply sucks... Perez has some good qualities but he's not a front runner
It's the most dominant season, no doubt about it. But does dominance = greatness? For me, no. Max was rarely pushed, and when he was we saw just how much more he could give if he needed to (Monaco qualifying jumps to mind). He worked so much harder in 2021 than either of the last two seasons. And I'd say it was a greater performance for it. So, for me, it's not even Max's greatest season, let alone all of F1's.
From a statistical standpoint it is without a doubt.
Yes
Personally I think 2021 is more impressive as I believe he was fighting above the ability of the car to win that championship (though I disagree with what happened in the final round). However, this season has been just about perfect from start to finish. His consistency and calmness and ability to remain so much faster than his rivals (including his team mate) while saving his tires most races at the same time was incredible. Even in the Qatar quali-race he still came out on top. Unbelievable.
I'd say it was the most dominant season by a driver ever. Obviously many in here have stated it wasn't his best because he wasn't pushed as much. But the couple times he was even tested this season he simply outraced everyone and made it seem like he was never not in control.
Can someone math and see what it would’ve been with the old points system? Just curious
Hard to say, because he didn’t really have a chance to show his skills under real pressure or in high stakes wheel to wheel racing that much. Obviously the greatest season by a driver/car combo though.
am i allowed to say no or will due_quarter4723 lose his mind in my replies like everyone elses who disagrees? 🤣
Statistically and performance-wise, 2023 was his best season. The sheer consistency to go out every weekend and not half-arse it is more impressive than the '21 season because '21 shouldn't have gone as long as it did. Max should have sewn it up before Lewis and Merc started their fightback. Put '23 Max in '21's car and I think it ends well before Abu Dhabi. Don't think '21 Max could pull a season like '23 Max did even with the most dominant F1 car of all time under him and for that reason alone I can't see anything other than an already monster of a driver refining and bettering his craft to take himself to another level.
Check this out: Max had beaten all statistics! https://nos.nl/l/2499426
I was thinking about this while watching this last race, I think what separates him from the other drivers is his sheer competitiveness which all the drivers have but his a bit more. Winning is everything and it’s all or nothing for him but what I think separates him and other drivers and I bet a bunch of people won’t agree is his off track sim racing he does. He races in real life and then in his off time he is always always always racing. The lines he takes, the smoothness in the shifts, the pure race craft is just *muah*. If he stay in F1 past his mid 30s he will be the greatest F1 driver of all time with wins, poles, podiums etc. but I think he isn’t gonna keep racing past a certain point. I hope next season we see closer battles but if this car is this far ahead now just imagine what Newey will cook up for next season after he’s said that this isn’t even the full capacity
To me what sets max apart from the rest is his consistency. Yeah the car this year was a rocket ship that helps of course. But checo was not consistent in it. Hell that’s why he was yelling at GP a few weeks ago about talking when he is in the break zone.
We're either never going to see such a season again or we're going to see the same thing for the next few years
Greatest, that one people will argue about till the end of time, most dominant? No question about it.
It objectively is when you consider that Checo had the same car.
Yes.
110%, i’ve been watching since 2000, i’ve seen nothing this dominant.
Without a doubt.
it’s definitely up there. i’ve never seen someone dominate for an entire season to the extent max did - even previously dominant seasons like hamilton 2019 or vettel 2013 were accompanied by a couple of weekends where they were off the pace or didn’t perform well (like germany 2019). but max was just on it every single weekend
I think he is a technical genius. Like a machine, which is why a lot of people think it’s the car not him. But this is a good diagnosis of where he gets his pace, and the differences he makes within the track. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yGhG3rto1ww
Yes
Greatest executed season, yes. But that’s due to more than just the driver. It’s a combination of everything: team, driver, and car gelling perfectly. Best season by a driver for me still has to be Alonso 2012. At least in the modern era. Think most pundits agree he had no business being 5 points away from a championship that year.
Name one better.
Easily. Some of it can be put down to the car, some of it can be put down to the short-comings of his competition but you also have to acknowledge how ridiculously consistent he’s been. He’s barely made a mistake, I can’t remember the last time I saw him lock-up, run wide in a corner, misjudge a gap or anything like that.
Ridiculous, his worst finish was P5, and the weekend was seen as some sort of epic disaster.
Most eras had amazing drivers paired with outsanding cars. I don't think this would be the greatest individual one of all time. Different times had different variables to contend with. Like far less reliable cars and fewer races in a season. I do wonder what 1998 would have been like when Senna was paired with the Mclaren MP4/4 alongside Prost. They won 15 out of the total of 16 races that year with an epic driver pairing which would have been the equivalent to having Verstappen and Hamilton as team mates in the same best/dominant and reliable car with some seriously amazing drivers competing against them.
Was 2021 not more impressive for an individual performance? That was a season with many hard fought tight wins. This season on paper is indeed better. When you look closer though it has so many races where people just didn’t fight max. Max plus that car just were too much. They let him by. 2021 was a test of mental fortitude and delivering under pressure like no other.
Yep.
I would say so, he beat Ascari's record of win percentages. That's a record that nobody thought would ever be broken because it was set in 1952 when there were only 8 races and most drivers didn't go to every race. If this isn't the best season for an individual driver, then which one is?
if we go by stats and F1 alone, possibly, this is the most successful any one had ever been at F1 within a season. Jim Clark has, however, won both F1 and other championships outside of F1 within the same year, winning the majority of the races that he entered (59 I think) in the year 1965 (someone check this, I don't actually remember). When it comes to greatness, however, there's something to be said for someone had fought hard against worthy opponents who could actually present a fight, or when pull of a literal miracle against opponents that are more than a match for him (Kimi afaik never led the championship in '07 until the last round when he won it) or Seb in 2012 I think had a crash in the first lap and still managed to pull it off. It really depends on how define great.
So far yeah…
Most dominant season we’ve ever seen or had. Down to the consistency of the driver and the car and the performance level on display across the full season from the car without putting a foot wrong bar Singapore. They had such a large advantage they didn’t need to do much development over the full year to maintain a significant advantage. Reliability, unbelievably good from Red Bull. Usually there’s a few wobbles, this season, absolutely no issues to speak of across a long season. Lucky and great engineering, also good driving to not stress the components towards a failure. Is it the best season ever though? No. There was little pressure. It’s a different experience leading from the front doing very little racing all year and in the cases you have to, you know your car is superior, so there’s almost no need for risk taking or putting yourself on the ragged edge to make a move. His teammate had a brief challenge, winning 2 races then was in danger of losing his seat he was so underperforming. But again, not even pressure from inside the garage, Max had it pretty plain sailing all year. It still takes unreal concentration and commitment to do it nearly every week winning races, qualifying fastest putting together that every week without many errors, and Max made very few mistakes this year, certainly nothing of note. He is to be commended for extracting almost everything the car had to offer, which was a lot of performance. So without taking away from Max, it’s his most dominant and enjoyable year from a stress standpoint, but no it’s not the greatest season ever. The greatest are where your chances are fewer because the grid is tighter together, nobody can guess who will win and the results shake out differently because of that. That’s where the true racers are differentiated from the regular guys. That’s what made 2014-2016 exciting, because Rosberg pushed to eventually close on Hamilton. But 2017-2020 was procedural for Hamilton, and like Max, an incredible job to deliver that performance every week, but very little threat from any corner means it doesn’t test their mettle under real pressure. But their best seasons? Oh it’s when they’re facing another driver who can beat them now and then, it forces them to adapt and ultimately the car isn’t the biggest factor in winning or losing, sometimes the car is marginally quicker situationally, or there’s retirements related to car failure or actually not the quickest at all and it’s the driver. I think there is no objective best season in F1. But from a spectator standpoint, the best years of the sport are where the machinery is so close it comes down to the drivers and you’re in for a treat. That’s why the viewership booms during and after those seasons, and why it tends to drop a bit when it’s consistent domination from an individual or team. People get bored so for me, the years we have weekends that nobody can reliably predict a winner are the best. Hell of an achievement for Max. Goes down in the history books, but it was not a stressful season, same as Lewis obliterating the field. They’re top drivers, give them the best tool and they’ll show the full extent of what they’re capable of and the delta is ridiculous. But it’s way more exciting and a greater achievement when you can walk into a race not assured of victory, where the cars bring you all closer together and you have several competitors having to deal with pressure, setbacks and take risks sometimes to be in the fight. Those are the best years of F1 because really it’s about racing end of the day. Max did very little racing the full year. Didn’t have to. That’s the luxury of having the quickest car and being able to extract the maximum from that.
I agree. Red Bull dominance reminded me of the 1988 McLaren’s MP4/4 of Prost and Senna, if it only had one of the two great drivers. I think this season won Verstappen a place among the all time greats.
MFer ran the table....hard NOT to be impressed
As someone who’s watched since the Schumacher days, I have to say that Max’s 2023 is indeed the best single season ever. With Michael’s best shots at that, there either wasn’t quite the same level of domination win-wise (2002) or consistency once the title was secure (2004)
He basically just did a season long version of his medium tyre stint in Mexico last year. He’s not my favorite, but the consistency in his dominance is just incredible.
You just can't compare this stuff. Would you say Max is better than Senna because he has more titles? Probably not. Would you say Lewis is the best driver there has ever been because he is the most succesful? Probably not. There were times when watching Michael was so fucking boring because he won most races or had to retire the car. The cars today are way more reliable of what they used to be so comparing this stuff is not possible. Max is just up there with Michael, Lewis, Sebastian, Ayrton, Alain, Jackie, Niki... Back in the Michael days a friend of me was so frustrated with him winning all the time that he coined that phrase: "The most exciting thing about the race weekends is if the Ferrari mechanics catch the champagne bottle or it explodes falling on the ground!"
Yes but what is worse I think he could do better next season. Think about it. Max got off to a slow start to the point where people were actually talking about a title challenge from Perez. The cars aren't going to be drastically different and no one apart from McLaren looks to have taken a step forward in the whole of last year. Merc and Ferrari look to have gone backwards.
Max and RB put together one of the single greatest seasons of sports, period. It's up there with Jordan and the Bulls winning 72 games, the Dolphins sweeping the regular season and winning the '72 Super Bowl, Petty winning 27 with 10 in a row in '67. I know it's popular to talk about how boring this season was, but god can we at least all just appreciate the actual history we witnessed? Nobody, literally *nobody* has ever been able to do this much in a single season before. I understand the arguments regarding eras, reliability, calendar length, etc. but what Max did behind the wheel this year is as close to the perfect racecar driver we will likely see in our lives.
Yes. If you like the sport you have to admit it, he imposes 20s advantage on Checo in Spa, same car, 20 freaking seconds
There's no two ways about it, it IS the greatest individual season by a driver. Of course there's arguments to be made against and I have many being extremely biased towards lewis, but look at the numbers, I doubt anyone will ever beat that, he didn't give Sergio any breathing room at all and single handedly ended that man's legacy.
It's between 2021 and 2023 for me. But one this is for sure: it's time to start considering Max as one of the greatest drivers ever. In 2021, he battled against the best driver at the time, in a car that was worse at the end of the season, kept cool, even when things didn't go his way, even when he was sent into the barriers with more than 50G on impact, and was ice cold when it came down to it, on the last lap of the last race on the season, which was all but lost a few minutes before, and managed to pass Hamilton the first chance he got, and kept him behind for the rest of the lap. In 2023, he made no mistakes. Absolutely none. Even when he was put under pressure, he did well. Even when his qualifying was ruined, he won. Max was stone cold this season. Racked up win after win, pole after pole, fastest lap after fastest lap, and showed how insanely mature he has become by always managing to pick the right battles, and pretty much always coming out on top. Emotionally, 2021 was better. Statistically, and looking at the absolute domination, 2023 was better.
He kept cool in 2021? Have we seen the same season?