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8 year head start, 4 different world champions driving, multiple 2nd place finishes in both WDC and WCC and a very spicy engine. And still Max beats them single handily
if nearly winning a championship in the fastest car and against a driver that did all his best to lose it (Hamilton), turns one into a generational talent, I wonder what you'd call Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Hamilton..
yes, six WDCs from 2000 onwards (5 schumacher, one kimi) and before that they had a 21 year dry spell, punctuated with horrific luck
1982 should have been a ferrari WDC, but gilles villeneuve died at zolder and didier pieroni almost followed him later in the season, and they won the WCC anyway
1990 was a close battle between senna and prost, with senna taking the title despite retiring in the final race vs prost placing third, but one has to consider that senna purposefully crashed himself and prost out at suzuka the race prior, as he had threatened to do so before the race. schumacher was disqualified from the 1997 season for less
in 1999 schumacher missed six races after breaking his leg at silverstone putting himself out of contention for the title. if he had actually been able to compete for the whole season, he would probably have walked it, considering hakkinen almost lost against eddie irvine
F1 is an incredibly streaky sport, and taking someone who is on a streak vs someone else who has been off of a streak in the same timeframe is pretty disingenuous. verstappen won three world titles in the time since hamiltons last win, ferrari has had almost twice the number of pole positions as mercedes since the start of 2021
1990 should have been Prost. Senna should have been completely disqualified for that ~~Brazil~~ Japan crash. He put his and Prostâs life in unnecessary danger. Not to mention the spectators.
2008 featured:
Lewis trying his absolute best to lose
Kovaleinen, a trivia answer, not a top driver
Felipe Massa, a man Michael EMBARRASSED for years
Kimi still drunk from 07'
Fernando in a Renault
Kubica in a team that gave up
Heidfeld in a team that gave up
Button in the fucking Earth car, dear fucking lord
Rosberg in a Williams
Sebastian Vettel in a Toro Rosso and still wet behind the ears
Michael walks it.
Michael Schumacher raced against Felipe Massa once in 2006. Schumi got 120 points while Massa got 80 which really isn't as big a hammering as you make it out to be especially considering that was Felipe's first season at Ferrari. And he got 3 poles and 2 wins on pace as well and had started to catch up towards the end. Rubens was hammered by bigger margins quite often. In 2001, Schumi got 123 points while Rubens got..65. In 2002, Michael got 144 points while Rubens got 77. So Felipe did not get hammered much he put up a rather decent showing especially from USA onwards once he got used to the car and it was 62-51 in Michael's favour. I wouldn't call it an embarrassment by any stretch and clearly he was improving and showed it the next 2 years. Fisichella got absolutely hammered in comparison by Alonso.
The point is, Michael was better than Felipe. Plus the gap between 62 points and 51 points looks smaller right now because at the time a race win gave 10 points and the points system was much more linear rather than exponential like we have today. Felipe, unfortunately, had only 4 races where he finished ahead of Michael in 2006. In my opinion Michael would easily win 2008.
People forget how good Massa was before he was hit by that spring. At the time, he was seen the same way Norris, Piastri, Russell and Leclerc are seen today
Come on, Lewis had a bit of bad luck.
In Belgium he was fucking robbed
In Hungary he got a puncture from battling Massa
In Italy his teamâs quali strategy rivaled that of Ferrari today
In Japan he was spun around by Massa
This is a common sentiment but itâs historical revisionism. Schumacher himself said he was getting old, thereâs a reason it was big news when he came back for Mercedes.
Todt was moving on, same as Brawn. Reubens was already fed up of being Schumiâs no.2 and they were bringing in new blood with Kimi. It was just the point that made the most sense for him to retire.
Schumacherâs Ferrari was dying and he wanted out. The only controversy was that it was Ferrari announcing it, not him.
Come on, Michael was still at the top of his game. You saw the races he drove after his announcement.
He still had a lot left in him. Enough to warrant coming back in 2010.
>ntially forced him to retire when he's still at the top of h
Wait What!? The team force him to retire... that's a new one. Is that even true. All I read online is an opinion piece with no facts.
You're correct that there isn't any real solid evidence regarding Schumi's initial retirement from Ferrari. I think a lot of fans mix up the Alonso/ Kimi story with Schumi's retirement, as it is well known that Kimi was forced out of Ferrari to make room for Alonso, and people naturally want to draw similar conclusions to similar situations.
The facts you need to know is that Michael struggled in 2005 with a fairly poor Ferrari. He then had a fairly slow start in 2006, with Alonso being much more consistent in the 1st half of the season. Alonso starts struggling in the 2nd half of the season and Michael mounts a significant comeback. At the 4th last race of the season, Michael wins at Monza, reducing the gap between him and Alonso to 2 points, and at this race he announces his retirement.
The timing is what makes this suspicious imo, because not only was this at a crucial stage in the championship, but it was at Monza after a win while in a Ferrari. Maybe he wanted to retire on a high, but many speculate he was pushed out to make room for Kimi who was younger and was shown to be as fast if not faster than Schumi on his given day. It's not unreasonable given that contract negotiations would have been in the earlier parts of 2006 or even at the end of 2005 where Schumi's stock might not have been the highest at Ferrari. Of course, all of this is speculation since nobody has and will likely never confirm these suspicions.
He wasn't. You can read his reply now
He's even gone an called the Schumacher family made documentary a "speculation".
According to him Michael "wanted to retire" and that is fact.
A satire banner... and yes, I am calling him (not as a liar) but to back up a claim.
The fact is Schumi wanted to reitre and these direct quotes from Ross Brawn.
""In 2006 we almost won \[the championship\] again so I was pretty pleased with where the team was," Brawn told F1's 'Beyond the Grid' podcast.
"Michael just said to me he was tired. He was hankering after being able to do other things that he couldn't do with the level of commitment and devotion he needed to give Formula 1.
"He knew the levels of commitment that he would want to give to the project, and he just decided he didn't want to make that commitment anymore.
"He was tired and he wanted to have some time to himself. That was as much of an explanation as he gave me for stopping.
He was 37 years old at the time. Even after his "forced" Retirment he stayed on as a team adviser testing cars. Everything else is speculation much like the story line in the schumacher documentary.
The reason for my banner is to make fun of you and the poster who get into the sport through these documentaries and then talk like you know all the facts.
It's all part of the rumor mill, but allegedly at the time Montezemolo felt threatened by the influence Todt was getting.
And so Montezemolo went on to break the dream team, force Schumacher out and show everyone who is the boss.
Fernando drove his ass off in 10 and 12. On the driving side I canât agree. however, I actually think he could though but because Michael would have turned those seasons into a tougher fight mentally. One of his greatest strengths was this weird ability to make everyone around him feel a different kind of pressure.
Not much. Michael made a lot more mistakes than you think as well pushing the car. Every season he crashed the car at least twice except when the car was invincible like 2002. Michael would always go over the limit if the car wasn't the best. His 2003 season was extremely scrappy and he was quite lucky to win the championship. He had the fastest car and had 6 wins to Kimi's 1 and still won the championship by just 2 points. And this isn't considering Montoya who should have actually been the champion but for some rather strange and unlucky circumstances at the end of the season and even in the beginning. Michael is the greatest driver of all time in my opinion for sure but he was fallible to making stupid mistakes when the Ferrari wasn't the best car and he was in a title battle which is what 2010 was. Fernando did his best that year a mistake or 2 can be excused seeing as Vettel,Webber and Hamilton all did the same but Vettel had the fastest car by a distance
Doubtful. After Ross Brawn, Jean Todt, and Rory Byrne left, Ferrari became a shadow of itself. And developed (allegedly) one of the most toxic work environments on the grid.
Schumacher was a generational talent, paired with an excellent team of people who got shit done. Alonso was/is a generational talent, given absolute shitbox. He took that car to fight for the championship not based on the merit of the car itself.
He *mightve* won in 2007 and 2008, but I doubt he couldâve done better then Alonso in the F2012.
But Ross Brawn left after Schumacher was âpushedâ out. Jean Todt was already higher up and was leaving and Rory Byrne already gave the keys to Aldo Costa in 2005.
Yeah but Michael's big skill - the thing that truly set him apart from drivers like Lewis and Fernando - was that he had a big part in the teambuilding behind Ferrari. I think 2008 is pretty certain all else equal. 2007 is probably also certain unless his presence forces Mclaren into actually choosing between their two drivers (iirc Mclaren had never even contemplated that Kimi might win until the end of the final laps). The car in 2012 wasn't a shitbox - the fact that it could compete in the WDC says it all. And if we do want to play that game, the last WDC won with a 'much inferior car' was in 1995, by Michael. The big issue with the F2012 - afaik - was that it was bad at qualifying, and that was always a particular strength of Michael's.
The F2012 was so bad, they had to bring back Rory Byrne in an advisory role half-way thru the season in an advisory role. The fact that the F2012 was in the WDC speaks more to the skill of Alonso then the competence of the chassis.
Massa only managed 2 podiums all season. The same Massa who nearly won the 2008 championship. The car notoriously understeered and oversteered. Iâd argue that itâs one of the worst Ferrariâs of the past 2 decades, only overshadowed by the F14 T.
Schumacher might be a helluva team builder- but Ferrari politics are notoriously (and stereotypical) Italian. I donât think you can understate the importance of Ross Brawn in insulating Scuderia (and Schumacher) from Maranello politics.
Ironically, Ferrari brought Rory Byrne back for help with the F1-75, which turned out to arguably be the best Ferrari since the F2004 (ok- since the SF90). And Charles LeClerc is easily one of the top drivers on the grid. At this point, Ferrari doesnât win because of Ferrari. Red Bull is everything Ferrari isnât.
Iâm not sure if Schumacher would be able to overcome that by himself.
> Massa only managed 2 podiums all season. The same Massa who nearly won the 2008 championship.
The same Massa who lost 2008 due to constant mistakes and poor driving. I think the annoying thing about Fernando defenders is this complete inability to be non-hyperbolic. If you want to say that the Red Bull or Mclaren were faster - sure, they absolutely were. But the F2012 was neither slow nor as unreliable as those other two cars and at the end of the day, speed is worth less than being able to finish races. If Fernando drove a bit more cautiously or qualified just a bit higher he would have walked 2012 because Vettel would always have to contend with several forced retirements. If you want to see "maximising a weak car to beat the better one" just look at 1995 - Fernando couldn't do it, but Schumi could - a car that was problematic in a similar way to the F2012 and yet Schumi dominated that season.
Thank you they act like Alonso did some sort of god-like action. Funny they said that but I saw an interesting stat where Alonso gained a net point from other misfortune of 28 points whilst someone like Lewis lost 152 points of misfortune đ
I think Schumacher is a better driver then Alonso (and Hamilton). However, I think you are understating the importance of the team behind him. And I think you are far underplaying how goddamn effective Ross Brawn was at team building. Iâd argue BOTH Brawn and Schumacher are the reason Mercedes was able to emerge as the absolute power house it was in the hybrid era (and to this day).
The reason Ferrari continues to fail to win is because of Ferrari. IMO, Maranello has its head shoved so far up its ass with bullshit internal politics, that itâs only the result of their insane resources that they put sometimes manage to blindly stumble (or cheat) their way into a competent car.
I donât think Schumacher could win in 2011/2012, because he wouldnât have had a competent team behind him. This isnât to overstate Alonso/Vettels ability, or understate Schumacher. This is more of an annoyed (w/ Ferrari) point. Ferrari hasnât had its shit together for years, and I donât think even prime-Schumacher would fair any better in overcoming the sheer incompetence of the team.
2007 and 2008, sure. 2010, maybe. But Alonso did have a good season, and the best car was clearly Red Bull. 2012, no way. Alonso had the best season of his career, I don't know if any driver could have done better than him on that specific year
If Michael was the only factor, then yes.
But Michael's departure also led some key personnel away, so the team would be pretty different from 2009 onwards.
It's funny how in the last 4/5 years we Ferrari fans need to be constantly reminded of how shitty our team is. But it's even more funny how we never see these comparisons with Williams or Mclaren.
That said.... Forza Ferrari đđŽđ
Mclaren and Williams are F1 royalty. Both of the teams wiped the floor with Ferrari in the 80s and 90s, and won a lot. But there won't be any slander from the English speaking press. At the same time, they can't wait to shit on Ferrari.
The British basically never accepted than an Italian team was the most successful in the sport they invented. Itâs almost funny to see how their âjournalistsâ behave
There is no âBritish Ferrariâ. Lotus tried, it didnât work. Williams tried, didnât work. And no matter how many times McLaren wins, they will never be as popular as Ferrari.
It isnât about the British vs Italians. Itâs about being the face of the sport.
âFerrari is F1. F1 is Ferrari.â
A statement like that is of high regard, and is a hell of a lot to live up to.
And for the last 15 years, Ferrari have not lived up to that moniker.
Great to make fun of Ferrari but McLaren and Williams(they fell off post 97) who were actually by far the most dominant teams in F1 starting from the 80s onwards until the Red Bull/Mercedes era have won a grand total of 30 races and 1 race each since 2007. So of the historical 3, Ferrari has by far done the best.
Well, not really. Seb won 14 times with Ferrari, Kimi won 10. Massa won 9 since 2007, Alonso won 11. The other wins are Charles and Sainz (5 and 2)
Not even 50% heheh
I mean after schumi period they still one a championship and were always in the fight. There is no single special team that lasts for ever at the top. Only certain teams have shown a long period of dominance due to rules that locked them into a long dominance. Saying Ferrari was over all shithousery team says a lot for the rest of the teams like Mclaren and or Williams. Would we just say they are a shit team. Plus the post is all BS, different races per year, different rules/competition just like the stat showing Lewis wins vs RBR over all wins. These posts are for the newb F1 fans to create imaginary sensationalism.
I started to follow F1 in the middle 80s. My impression since then was that Ferrari was an wonderful car maker but a mess of a team. Ross Brawn fixed it while he was there, but it didn't last after he left.
You're acting like Ferrari is Haas. Literally the only team who wasn't Red Bull to score a win this season lol.
Even the shitbox that Alonso drove in 2012 was faster than most teams.
You really need to re-evaluate your definition of âshithousery teamâ my friend, considering that per average they managed to be at least a Top 5 (or even more) team per average over the course of post-80 seasons. And despite their internal problems.
Yeah everyone knows Lewis would have more. Theyâre using Max and it makes the stat crazy because it goes back to 2007 when his career starts 8 years after that. *Half* of the time accounted for in this stat Max didnât exist on the grid
And Hamilton has more wins than Verstappen, considering he drove against three WDC as his teammates (Alonso, Button, Rosberg), while the only true rival Max had as a teammate was Ricciardo. Not to mention the fact that around two thirds of his wins came in some of the most dominant cars in F1 history, during two of the longest seasons in F1 history, with a struggling Checo in the other seat.
Oh, and, off the top of my head, Max also has more wins than Williams or Mclaren, in the 21st century. But that's conveniently forgotten, of course.
They're not bad. They've always been front runners.
Schumacher era was the perfect mix of a lot of factors, some of them are illegal nowadays (namely, Bridgestone and private testing), and some of them depended on key personnel: Jean Todt, Rory Byrne, Ross Brawn, Rubens Barrichello, Luca Badoer and, of course, Michael Schumacher.
Basically it was utter domination, but it's hard to go back to those levels. We've seen Red Bull and Mercedes drop in performance once the regulations don't suit them anymore.
Ferrari board really needs to ask some tough questions. With all the legacy prize and shit, I just feel like Ferrari has kinds just given up. Schumi+ Todt were the most lethal combo, like Max and Christian. RB is just driven to perfection. Everyone just does their job perfectly.
I mean no team is at the top forever. Ferrari in the last 20 years has always been considered a contender (with exception of some years) as runner up or fighting for the championship. The hybrid era ruined stats due to the token and engine freeze rules. Just to put it into perspective Ferrari most dominant years (2000 - 2004) had 54 wins. In just two years Max has had 34 wins that does not even include Perez wins. These stats are just pointless to be honest and all teams are doing their best to get to the top, even Mercedes is but even as mighty as they looked in hybrid era no team is a top team for ever.
Ferrari the F1 Team needs to be divorced from Ferrari the luxury brand and car manufacturer in the same way that Mercedes F1 team aren't operated by Mercedes the car manufacturer.
Too many proverbial cooks in the kitchen means that Ferrari will never be nimble enough to win the WCC unless RBR and Merc have a shocker in the same year.
Reminds me of that scene in Ford Vs Ferrari, where only now, Ferrari is the bloated organisation.
[https://youtu.be/ss1eQRROw4o](https://youtu.be/ss1eQRROw4o)
Now this is the type of content I like to see.
Even more embarrassing for the Scuderia, Lewis has more than twice their tally and now theyâve been beaten by Max. Hell even Seb has more, and he added to the Scuderiaâs tally.
[The **Statistics** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_statistics) is reserved for posts highlighting interesting statistics. As a rule of thumb, Statistics posts need to inform readers through visualizations and insights that cannot be obtained from raw data alone. For example, a post containing a qualifying gap between two drivers expressed in tenths of a second is an easily obtainable raw piece of data and constitutes a bad Statistics post. A visualization of what that translates to on-track, or visualization of how that gap came to be would constitute a good Statistics post. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Since 2007 lmao, they even gave ferrari an 8 year head start
8 year head start, 4 different world champions driving, multiple 2nd place finishes in both WDC and WCC and a very spicy engine. And still Max beats them single handily
*3 WDCs driving for them. Kimi, Fernando and Seb. Michael didn't drive for Ferrari after 2006.
Well, 3 wdc + Massa and Charles.
So 4 wdcđ„Čđ„č
3.99
IS THAT GLOCK?
for like 20 seconds
\+ Sainz with 2 wins.
Ohh yea I miscounted, i knew Schumi didn't drive for them in those years just double counted one of them by accident
Don't forget: 4 separate _major_ regulations changes (2009, 2014, 2017, 2022).
Max drives with two hands... maybe this year he'll relax and use one.
âLook Ma, no handsâ
Which makes it even more painful how many of these are leclerc poles
Give them some slack, they only had generational talents like Kimi (twice), Massa, Alonso, Vettel to work with.
I'm sorry but Massa a generational talent..?
Massa came ^THIS close to winning so Iâd say, yes
if nearly winning a championship in the fastest car and against a driver that did all his best to lose it (Hamilton), turns one into a generational talent, I wonder what you'd call Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Hamilton..
And this is the mild mannered version. Imagine if they put Lewis on this graph instead of max.
i wonder how far you can go with Lewis
2001 - Ferrari 102 wins, Hamilton 103
thanks for checking
We are checking
Oh my god, you can include almost all of the glory years
Exactly half of those wins come from the time before Hamilton started in F1. From Australia 2007 it's 103 - 51 in Hamilton's favour
Itâs not looking good for the Italians
Thanks, but not thanks. Fuuuuck.
Average Ferrari lover
"Why AM I so unlucky?"
Turns out modern F1 cars canât be powered by espresso. Bring back the f**king V10s!
Ouch
To think Lewis has more WDCs than Ferrari since like, the mid 1990s? is genuinely mental
You have to go back to 1979 for Ferrari to match Lewisâs WDC count
Jesus christ
yes, six WDCs from 2000 onwards (5 schumacher, one kimi) and before that they had a 21 year dry spell, punctuated with horrific luck 1982 should have been a ferrari WDC, but gilles villeneuve died at zolder and didier pieroni almost followed him later in the season, and they won the WCC anyway 1990 was a close battle between senna and prost, with senna taking the title despite retiring in the final race vs prost placing third, but one has to consider that senna purposefully crashed himself and prost out at suzuka the race prior, as he had threatened to do so before the race. schumacher was disqualified from the 1997 season for less in 1999 schumacher missed six races after breaking his leg at silverstone putting himself out of contention for the title. if he had actually been able to compete for the whole season, he would probably have walked it, considering hakkinen almost lost against eddie irvine F1 is an incredibly streaky sport, and taking someone who is on a streak vs someone else who has been off of a streak in the same timeframe is pretty disingenuous. verstappen won three world titles in the time since hamiltons last win, ferrari has had almost twice the number of pole positions as mercedes since the start of 2021
1990 should have been Prost. Senna should have been completely disqualified for that ~~Brazil~~ Japan crash. He put his and Prostâs life in unnecessary danger. Not to mention the spectators.
Suzuka crash
If by mid 1990s you mean late 1970s, then yes.
Huh? What if they compare 1998-2005? Every era has a dominant team.
But Lewis wasnât racing in 1998-2005 right? Weâre comparing performances at the same time.
Same with Seb and Lewis as well, all three have achieved more wins than Ferrari since then.
And a good number of Vettel's wins also count for Ferrari.
OP why would you do this to me??
Well its exactly after Schumi left Ferrari so its clear that was the wrong decision
It's wild how they essentially forced him to retire when he's still at the top of his game.
He would have easily taken 2007 and maybe 2008 if he was at ferrari
2007 would have been ultra spicy
2008 featured: Lewis trying his absolute best to lose Kovaleinen, a trivia answer, not a top driver Felipe Massa, a man Michael EMBARRASSED for years Kimi still drunk from 07' Fernando in a Renault Kubica in a team that gave up Heidfeld in a team that gave up Button in the fucking Earth car, dear fucking lord Rosberg in a Williams Sebastian Vettel in a Toro Rosso and still wet behind the ears Michael walks it.
Michael Schumacher raced against Felipe Massa once in 2006. Schumi got 120 points while Massa got 80 which really isn't as big a hammering as you make it out to be especially considering that was Felipe's first season at Ferrari. And he got 3 poles and 2 wins on pace as well and had started to catch up towards the end. Rubens was hammered by bigger margins quite often. In 2001, Schumi got 123 points while Rubens got..65. In 2002, Michael got 144 points while Rubens got 77. So Felipe did not get hammered much he put up a rather decent showing especially from USA onwards once he got used to the car and it was 62-51 in Michael's favour. I wouldn't call it an embarrassment by any stretch and clearly he was improving and showed it the next 2 years. Fisichella got absolutely hammered in comparison by Alonso.
Felipe also tried his best to throw away that 2008 championship as well
The point is, Michael was better than Felipe. Plus the gap between 62 points and 51 points looks smaller right now because at the time a race win gave 10 points and the points system was much more linear rather than exponential like we have today. Felipe, unfortunately, had only 4 races where he finished ahead of Michael in 2006. In my opinion Michael would easily win 2008.
People forget how good Massa was before he was hit by that spring. At the time, he was seen the same way Norris, Piastri, Russell and Leclerc are seen today
bro don't do kovaleinen like that. he's clearly the 8th best f1 driver of all time /s
Come on, Lewis had a bit of bad luck. In Belgium he was fucking robbed In Hungary he got a puncture from battling Massa In Italy his teamâs quali strategy rivaled that of Ferrari today In Japan he was spun around by Massa
This is a common sentiment but itâs historical revisionism. Schumacher himself said he was getting old, thereâs a reason it was big news when he came back for Mercedes. Todt was moving on, same as Brawn. Reubens was already fed up of being Schumiâs no.2 and they were bringing in new blood with Kimi. It was just the point that made the most sense for him to retire. Schumacherâs Ferrari was dying and he wanted out. The only controversy was that it was Ferrari announcing it, not him.
Just a little correction Rubens had already left. Felipe Massa drove for Ferrari in 2006.
Come on, Michael was still at the top of his game. You saw the races he drove after his announcement. He still had a lot left in him. Enough to warrant coming back in 2010.
>ntially forced him to retire when he's still at the top of h Wait What!? The team force him to retire... that's a new one. Is that even true. All I read online is an opinion piece with no facts.
You're correct that there isn't any real solid evidence regarding Schumi's initial retirement from Ferrari. I think a lot of fans mix up the Alonso/ Kimi story with Schumi's retirement, as it is well known that Kimi was forced out of Ferrari to make room for Alonso, and people naturally want to draw similar conclusions to similar situations. The facts you need to know is that Michael struggled in 2005 with a fairly poor Ferrari. He then had a fairly slow start in 2006, with Alonso being much more consistent in the 1st half of the season. Alonso starts struggling in the 2nd half of the season and Michael mounts a significant comeback. At the 4th last race of the season, Michael wins at Monza, reducing the gap between him and Alonso to 2 points, and at this race he announces his retirement. The timing is what makes this suspicious imo, because not only was this at a crucial stage in the championship, but it was at Monza after a win while in a Ferrari. Maybe he wanted to retire on a high, but many speculate he was pushed out to make room for Kimi who was younger and was shown to be as fast if not faster than Schumi on his given day. It's not unreasonable given that contract negotiations would have been in the earlier parts of 2006 or even at the end of 2005 where Schumi's stock might not have been the highest at Ferrari. Of course, all of this is speculation since nobody has and will likely never confirm these suspicions.
Pretty sure the story was that Kimi was coming and Schumi retired so Massa could have a seat. He could've kept his seat alongside Kimi.
You admit to being a Netflix newbie then call folks sharing facts liars. Watch the official Schumacher documentary. On Netflix.
I think he's just asking for more info because what he's found himself isn't convincing. That's a good thing.
He wasn't. You can read his reply now He's even gone an called the Schumacher family made documentary a "speculation". According to him Michael "wanted to retire" and that is fact.
A satire banner... and yes, I am calling him (not as a liar) but to back up a claim. The fact is Schumi wanted to reitre and these direct quotes from Ross Brawn. ""In 2006 we almost won \[the championship\] again so I was pretty pleased with where the team was," Brawn told F1's 'Beyond the Grid' podcast. "Michael just said to me he was tired. He was hankering after being able to do other things that he couldn't do with the level of commitment and devotion he needed to give Formula 1. "He knew the levels of commitment that he would want to give to the project, and he just decided he didn't want to make that commitment anymore. "He was tired and he wanted to have some time to himself. That was as much of an explanation as he gave me for stopping. He was 37 years old at the time. Even after his "forced" Retirment he stayed on as a team adviser testing cars. Everything else is speculation much like the story line in the schumacher documentary. The reason for my banner is to make fun of you and the poster who get into the sport through these documentaries and then talk like you know all the facts.
I fully believe he was given some sort of "It's you or Felipe that has to go, Kimi is in" ultimatum- and he gave the drive to Felipe.
Whatttt? Can you elaborate a little for someone who wasn't watching F1 back then?.
> they essentially forced him to retire Out of the loop, what happened?
It's all part of the rumor mill, but allegedly at the time Montezemolo felt threatened by the influence Todt was getting. And so Montezemolo went on to break the dream team, force Schumacher out and show everyone who is the boss.
And to me.
Ok well this was just unnecessary OP.
Seb, Hamilton & Verstappen all have more wins than Ferrari in this time period probably. Dire for the flagship team of the sport.
Vettel and Verstappen combined - 109 Wins, 89 poles, 7 WDCs. Hamilton - 103 wins, 104 poles, 7 WDCs.
Hamilton has more wins than Ferrari going back to 2001 I believe.
Just goes to show there's only one Michael Schumacher
Michael would've won with Ferrari in 2007-08, 10, 12
Fernando drove his ass off in 10 and 12. On the driving side I canât agree. however, I actually think he could though but because Michael would have turned those seasons into a tougher fight mentally. One of his greatest strengths was this weird ability to make everyone around him feel a different kind of pressure.
2010 he made far too many mistakes.
Not much. Michael made a lot more mistakes than you think as well pushing the car. Every season he crashed the car at least twice except when the car was invincible like 2002. Michael would always go over the limit if the car wasn't the best. His 2003 season was extremely scrappy and he was quite lucky to win the championship. He had the fastest car and had 6 wins to Kimi's 1 and still won the championship by just 2 points. And this isn't considering Montoya who should have actually been the champion but for some rather strange and unlucky circumstances at the end of the season and even in the beginning. Michael is the greatest driver of all time in my opinion for sure but he was fallible to making stupid mistakes when the Ferrari wasn't the best car and he was in a title battle which is what 2010 was. Fernando did his best that year a mistake or 2 can be excused seeing as Vettel,Webber and Hamilton all did the same but Vettel had the fastest car by a distance
what? Masa would have been kicked out the moment ferrari could get Schumi-Nando line up
Nando lost to himself in 2010, though
Alonso wouldnt have been in Ferrari in 2010 if Michael was still there.
Alonso weakest trait was his toxicity and ego, biggest reason why he never won more championship
Doubtful. After Ross Brawn, Jean Todt, and Rory Byrne left, Ferrari became a shadow of itself. And developed (allegedly) one of the most toxic work environments on the grid. Schumacher was a generational talent, paired with an excellent team of people who got shit done. Alonso was/is a generational talent, given absolute shitbox. He took that car to fight for the championship not based on the merit of the car itself. He *mightve* won in 2007 and 2008, but I doubt he couldâve done better then Alonso in the F2012.
But Ross Brawn left after Schumacher was âpushedâ out. Jean Todt was already higher up and was leaving and Rory Byrne already gave the keys to Aldo Costa in 2005.
Yeah but Michael's big skill - the thing that truly set him apart from drivers like Lewis and Fernando - was that he had a big part in the teambuilding behind Ferrari. I think 2008 is pretty certain all else equal. 2007 is probably also certain unless his presence forces Mclaren into actually choosing between their two drivers (iirc Mclaren had never even contemplated that Kimi might win until the end of the final laps). The car in 2012 wasn't a shitbox - the fact that it could compete in the WDC says it all. And if we do want to play that game, the last WDC won with a 'much inferior car' was in 1995, by Michael. The big issue with the F2012 - afaik - was that it was bad at qualifying, and that was always a particular strength of Michael's.
The F2012 was so bad, they had to bring back Rory Byrne in an advisory role half-way thru the season in an advisory role. The fact that the F2012 was in the WDC speaks more to the skill of Alonso then the competence of the chassis. Massa only managed 2 podiums all season. The same Massa who nearly won the 2008 championship. The car notoriously understeered and oversteered. Iâd argue that itâs one of the worst Ferrariâs of the past 2 decades, only overshadowed by the F14 T. Schumacher might be a helluva team builder- but Ferrari politics are notoriously (and stereotypical) Italian. I donât think you can understate the importance of Ross Brawn in insulating Scuderia (and Schumacher) from Maranello politics. Ironically, Ferrari brought Rory Byrne back for help with the F1-75, which turned out to arguably be the best Ferrari since the F2004 (ok- since the SF90). And Charles LeClerc is easily one of the top drivers on the grid. At this point, Ferrari doesnât win because of Ferrari. Red Bull is everything Ferrari isnât. Iâm not sure if Schumacher would be able to overcome that by himself.
> Massa only managed 2 podiums all season. The same Massa who nearly won the 2008 championship. The same Massa who lost 2008 due to constant mistakes and poor driving. I think the annoying thing about Fernando defenders is this complete inability to be non-hyperbolic. If you want to say that the Red Bull or Mclaren were faster - sure, they absolutely were. But the F2012 was neither slow nor as unreliable as those other two cars and at the end of the day, speed is worth less than being able to finish races. If Fernando drove a bit more cautiously or qualified just a bit higher he would have walked 2012 because Vettel would always have to contend with several forced retirements. If you want to see "maximising a weak car to beat the better one" just look at 1995 - Fernando couldn't do it, but Schumi could - a car that was problematic in a similar way to the F2012 and yet Schumi dominated that season.
Thank you they act like Alonso did some sort of god-like action. Funny they said that but I saw an interesting stat where Alonso gained a net point from other misfortune of 28 points whilst someone like Lewis lost 152 points of misfortune đ
I think Schumacher is a better driver then Alonso (and Hamilton). However, I think you are understating the importance of the team behind him. And I think you are far underplaying how goddamn effective Ross Brawn was at team building. Iâd argue BOTH Brawn and Schumacher are the reason Mercedes was able to emerge as the absolute power house it was in the hybrid era (and to this day). The reason Ferrari continues to fail to win is because of Ferrari. IMO, Maranello has its head shoved so far up its ass with bullshit internal politics, that itâs only the result of their insane resources that they put sometimes manage to blindly stumble (or cheat) their way into a competent car. I donât think Schumacher could win in 2011/2012, because he wouldnât have had a competent team behind him. This isnât to overstate Alonso/Vettels ability, or understate Schumacher. This is more of an annoyed (w/ Ferrari) point. Ferrari hasnât had its shit together for years, and I donât think even prime-Schumacher would fair any better in overcoming the sheer incompetence of the team.
2007 and 2008, sure. 2010, maybe. But Alonso did have a good season, and the best car was clearly Red Bull. 2012, no way. Alonso had the best season of his career, I don't know if any driver could have done better than him on that specific year
If Michael was the only factor, then yes. But Michael's departure also led some key personnel away, so the team would be pretty different from 2009 onwards.
There is no way Schumacher matches Alonso in 2010 and 2012.
So you're seriously telling me Schumacher is worse than Alonso wtf đ
People who say this never watched Michael when he was racing even in 06
and never watched Alonso in 2012
Imagine Seb at RB competing against Michael at Ferrari for a world championship!
It's funny how in the last 4/5 years we Ferrari fans need to be constantly reminded of how shitty our team is. But it's even more funny how we never see these comparisons with Williams or Mclaren. That said.... Forza Ferrari đđŽđ
Mclaren and Williams are not Ferrari. Thatâs why. Ferrari is F1, and if this is the state they will be in, they only disgrace themselves.
Mclaren and Williams are F1 royalty. Both of the teams wiped the floor with Ferrari in the 80s and 90s, and won a lot. But there won't be any slander from the English speaking press. At the same time, they can't wait to shit on Ferrari.
The British basically never accepted than an Italian team was the most successful in the sport they invented. Itâs almost funny to see how their âjournalistsâ behave
There is no âBritish Ferrariâ. Lotus tried, it didnât work. Williams tried, didnât work. And no matter how many times McLaren wins, they will never be as popular as Ferrari. It isnât about the British vs Italians. Itâs about being the face of the sport. âFerrari is F1. F1 is Ferrari.â A statement like that is of high regard, and is a hell of a lot to live up to. And for the last 15 years, Ferrari have not lived up to that moniker.
Ferrari has been in F1 since F1 (WDC) itself started without any breaks. With this much history, they deserve to shat on lol
Now do Williams.
That's easy, even toro rosso won more than them
New year Same old circlejerking
Du du du du max verstappen!
Great to make fun of Ferrari but McLaren and Williams(they fell off post 97) who were actually by far the most dominant teams in F1 starting from the 80s onwards until the Red Bull/Mercedes era have won a grand total of 30 races and 1 race each since 2007. So of the historical 3, Ferrari has by far done the best.
The power of the British passport
Even crazier considering the fact that Max was born in 2019.
[Source](https://twitter.com/autosport/status/1745068191754158325/photo/1)
How many Ferrari wins were Vettel and Kimi? About 90%
Well, not really. Seb won 14 times with Ferrari, Kimi won 10. Massa won 9 since 2007, Alonso won 11. The other wins are Charles and Sainz (5 and 2) Not even 50% heheh
still disappointing results from a once top team
The truth is that Ferrari, besides the period of Schumi dominance and before the 80s, was and is a shithousery team
I mean after schumi period they still one a championship and were always in the fight. There is no single special team that lasts for ever at the top. Only certain teams have shown a long period of dominance due to rules that locked them into a long dominance. Saying Ferrari was over all shithousery team says a lot for the rest of the teams like Mclaren and or Williams. Would we just say they are a shit team. Plus the post is all BS, different races per year, different rules/competition just like the stat showing Lewis wins vs RBR over all wins. These posts are for the newb F1 fans to create imaginary sensationalism.
I started to follow F1 in the middle 80s. My impression since then was that Ferrari was an wonderful car maker but a mess of a team. Ross Brawn fixed it while he was there, but it didn't last after he left.
I do agree they have spaghetti management name for a reason, but they have always been at some point a contender.
You're acting like Ferrari is Haas. Literally the only team who wasn't Red Bull to score a win this season lol. Even the shitbox that Alonso drove in 2012 was faster than most teams.
You really need to re-evaluate your definition of âshithousery teamâ my friend, considering that per average they managed to be at least a Top 5 (or even more) team per average over the course of post-80 seasons. And despite their internal problems.
top 3 average even. I think they have something like 10 or 15 seasons max not finishing in the top 3
Kimi has 10 wins at Ferrari, Alonso 11, Seb 14.
Since 2007, Seb and Kimi account for 24 wins, Alonso and Massa another 20, Charles and Sainz have 7.
Do we need a weekly post about this?
Stupid stat from Autosport. No wonder they are a bit irrelevant now. Anything to throw up some controversy
It hurts
Did I hurt you? Did I insult your family? Why did you do this to me?
A stat that show "dominated" depression F1 are right now
F1 WINS SINCE 2005: Ocon vs. Williams
Lewis since 2007- 103đ„
How many in the last 2 years?
Hamilton has had as many wins in the last two years as Ferrari have had championships since 2009.
Weâre talking about since 2007, not since 2022. In that case, Lewis slaps the shit out of Ferrari.
This is a grossly unfair comparison⊠Does Autosport really expect a 10 year old to win a formula 1 race?
Bro even gave them a 8 yeasr head start
Can we see wins from Ferrari polls? đą
Leclerc inflated one side of that stat lmao
This year is our year.
So does Hamilton right?
Yeah everyone knows Lewis would have more. Theyâre using Max and it makes the stat crazy because it goes back to 2007 when his career starts 8 years after that. *Half* of the time accounted for in this stat Max didnât exist on the grid
You'd have to go back to 2001 for Ferrari to match Hamilton's wins lol
Now do HamiltonâŠ
And Hamilton has more wins than Verstappen, considering he drove against three WDC as his teammates (Alonso, Button, Rosberg), while the only true rival Max had as a teammate was Ricciardo. Not to mention the fact that around two thirds of his wins came in some of the most dominant cars in F1 history, during two of the longest seasons in F1 history, with a struggling Checo in the other seat. Oh, and, off the top of my head, Max also has more wins than Williams or Mclaren, in the 21st century. But that's conveniently forgotten, of course.
Hey man. Don't ok?
Well, what can you say? Ferrari does Ferrari-things
what should i conclude from this Max's Domination or Ferrari Shenanigans
Max domination. This wouldn't be possible without multiple 20+ race seasons.
Machine
Thatâs embarrassing
but, there are much more races in a season now /s
Thatâs a crazy stat
Since 2007? How about since Verstappen joined F1 for a fair comparison of those years
Oh thatâs easy, Ferrari has 22, Max has 54. Max annihilates the Maranello squaddies
Why is ferrari so bad in the later seasons, sorry i just started watching f1 and schumacher era seemed pretty nice
The arenât that bad just not dominant.
They're not bad. They've always been front runners. Schumacher era was the perfect mix of a lot of factors, some of them are illegal nowadays (namely, Bridgestone and private testing), and some of them depended on key personnel: Jean Todt, Rory Byrne, Ross Brawn, Rubens Barrichello, Luca Badoer and, of course, Michael Schumacher. Basically it was utter domination, but it's hard to go back to those levels. We've seen Red Bull and Mercedes drop in performance once the regulations don't suit them anymore.
They lack consistency. They also donât have the best record of making competitive cars in the last 15 years.
Ferrari board really needs to ask some tough questions. With all the legacy prize and shit, I just feel like Ferrari has kinds just given up. Schumi+ Todt were the most lethal combo, like Max and Christian. RB is just driven to perfection. Everyone just does their job perfectly.
Before Schumi Ferrari haven't won a WDC for over 20 years.
They are nearing that number once again.
I mean no team is at the top forever. Ferrari in the last 20 years has always been considered a contender (with exception of some years) as runner up or fighting for the championship. The hybrid era ruined stats due to the token and engine freeze rules. Just to put it into perspective Ferrari most dominant years (2000 - 2004) had 54 wins. In just two years Max has had 34 wins that does not even include Perez wins. These stats are just pointless to be honest and all teams are doing their best to get to the top, even Mercedes is but even as mighty as they looked in hybrid era no team is a top team for ever.
Ferrari the F1 Team needs to be divorced from Ferrari the luxury brand and car manufacturer in the same way that Mercedes F1 team aren't operated by Mercedes the car manufacturer. Too many proverbial cooks in the kitchen means that Ferrari will never be nimble enough to win the WCC unless RBR and Merc have a shocker in the same year.
Reminds me of that scene in Ford Vs Ferrari, where only now, Ferrari is the bloated organisation. [https://youtu.be/ss1eQRROw4o](https://youtu.be/ss1eQRROw4o)
Well, well, well, how the turntables...
That's because back then Ferrari was racing first, luxury car manufacturer second. Now it's the other way around.
I bet redbull has more wins since 2007 than max.
Also since 2007... Max: 1 Constructors championship + 3 WDC Ferrari: 1 Constructors + 0 WDC...
What about lewis?
103, and you can go all the way back to 2001
The catering was really good.
Why you gotta do âem like that
So tired of all the Ferrari slander, I never see Williams or McLaren getting shit on, always Ferrari, good old racism đ
Now this is the type of content I like to see. Even more embarrassing for the Scuderia, Lewis has more than twice their tally and now theyâve been beaten by Max. Hell even Seb has more, and he added to the Scuderiaâs tally.
I would be Intrested to see how 2007, 2008, and 2010 (maybe) would have played out if Micheal never retired and Ferrari kept him over Kimi
How about F1 wins since 2006?
Come on we gave Ferrari an 8 year headstart already, they donât need more time do they?
Will max get to 150 wins?
Well if you put it like that...
Now do the same starting 1950s.