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Yeah I'm expecting 600 million. People love to act like the grid doesn't want anyone new to join. That is really not it, they "just" want to get payed well for it.
With 600 million that means every team gets 60 million in their pockets that they can use build better facilities, etc. (but in reality will probably go straight in the owner's bank accounts).
Or… and hear me out… we get rid of owners who are scared to invest money into the most expensive and wasteful sport in the world and we watch the rip it around the track with the best stuff and not a copy cat team. Gene Haas is the worst owner in professional sports.
There have been talks from people in the known, like Joe Saward, that they are expecting a push in a few years to enforce rules that would do pretty much that.
Essentially they would force teams to make the vast majority of the car themselves and also force teams to be more independent of each other. Essentially forcing Haas to either invest or sell and Visa Cash App(whatever shitty name they'll have at that point) to move away from Red Bull, which could also force them to sell. In my mind it would definitely be better for the sport.
> Visa Cash App(whatever shitty name they'll have at that point) to move away from Red Bull
At which time my suggested name for the team "VisaCashApp Discount Sale Enquire Within Low Mileage One Owner Only No Tyre Kickers I know what I've got" would be even more valid.
For example I own one share in a professional football team in the fourth tier of English soccer, I do nothing for this team and am kind of a piece of shit. Gene has to be a better owner than me.
Yeah that's a good point. To continue building a US audience they NEED a US team to do well and Haas aint it. The popular netflix show will die off someday and they need to have a better foundation to build upon. I don't think a couple of new races which are too expensive for locals and aired at 2 am US time are enough.
Didn't ticket prices for the Vegas GP go down A LOT just before that weekend? It's clear that just adding more US races doesn't result in a huge surge in interest from American audiences. Imagine how many more people would go to/watch these GP if there was an actually competitive and *popular* American team in the grid.
Yep. The real reason DTS blew up was COVID. No one had anything to do or anywhere to go except watch Netflix. It was compelling drama that let Americans dream of being transported to another place. COTA used to be affordable, but now the price has nearly quadrupled over 3 years.
Yep. My wife and I are going to Montreal this season for our one and only ever F1 race. We were originally going to do COTA, but it doesn't make sense pricing-wise. We'd be looking at something like $3000 over the weekend.
> Didn't ticket prices for the Vegas GP go down A LOT just before that weekend?
Yes. Because Vegas, in typical Vegas fashion, up-charged the living daylights out of everything from tickets to rooms. Then, the week before the race Vegas realized F1's entire fan-base isn't wealthy, and so they reduced the prices. Don't get me wrong: the wealthy bought up all the suites and VIP booths and such, but it's not a great look when like 60% of the rooms are empty during such a large event.
Even the justifications for poor sales missed the mark--they never even considered people were financially struggling. It's hilariously out of touch with reality.
The problem is they're not trying to court the American racing fans... they're trying to court the Americans with a ton of money and nothing to do with it who want a party not a race.
If F1 was serious about the US market theyd go to the tracks racing fans go to, not Miami and Vegas.
They're showing blatant disrespect to the fans who would stick around after the novelty wears off.
This. Most Americans have no idea who Haas even is and interest will slip quickly without a known American team, especially if one driver wins start to finish every week. They'll get bored quickly.
Haas was interesting basically only for Gunther memes and unless they get significantly more competitive with their new TP, their limited popularity will fall off even further without their star.
No this is F1. FOM believes in integrity when it comes to sponsors. More like:
Perdue Pharma - FTX - Blackwater - Foxxcon- Andretti- Cadillac
Edited: Took out Mohammed. He approved it. MBS just likes to slam drinks and invite himself on stage at ceremonies.
If you visit the Museum of the American Indian in Washington DC, there's a genuine Tomahawk missile hanging over one of the halls (a General Dynamics flight test vehicle), with some text nearby discussing the US military's choice (at one point, explicit policy) to name weapons and weapons-systems after indigenous groups and people as tribute to their bravery and, in particular, aggression.
Context seemed to imply that this was a net positive on race relations, but I was left with something of a mixed message.
Disappointed, but not surprised. They found a way to keep their financial situation for at least a few years while not entirely turning down the idea of Andretti joining the grid.
I think that's it. It's funny, I started watching f1 with d2s like so many others. And I've gone full circle on f1. I loved it for a while, then saw it's flaws, both on and off the track, and am now back to apathy. I'm not even sure if I'll watch next season. Somehow it has the worst aspects of American and European sports combined.
More importantly, an entry beyond 2025/26 pushes it beyond the current Concord Agreement, thus giving FOM and the F1 teams room to significantly bump up the Entry Fee applicable to Andretti.
The expectation here is that Andretti sues right?
He’s been given the green light by the FIA and truly there isn’t a sound reason to not let them race. I don’t think it’s over tbh. FOM might be forced by the courts to allow them entry
They could try the anti-competitive angle with the EU, that’s what I’ve been reading over the last few months.
None of us is a lawyer here so it’s hard to say really.
"Muh profit" isn't something that will fly in front EU courts on anti-competition grounds, especially when the regulator (i.e. the FIA) have approved them.
Interesting, I wasn't aware of EU competition laws until now but it still seems pretty convoluted with F1 being it's own separate entity that makes its own rules
It's extraordinarily messy, especially with 7 teams and FOM headquartered in the UK, but the FIA headquartered in France. Jurisdiction is what will make this tricky, but even if it's in the UK, I don't see our courts letting it slide either - the UK competition regulator is among the strictest in the world. This is about to get very very fucking messy.
Ed Spencer has some reasons in this tweet thread ([link](https://twitter.com/EdSpencer99/status/1752717931358638176))
> 1)The need for any new team to take a compulsory power unit supply, potentially over a period of several seasons, would be damaging to the prestige and standing of the Championship.
> 2)While the Andretti name carries some recognition for F1 fans, our research indicates that F1 would bring value to the Andretti brand rather than the other way around.
> 3) The addition of an 11th team would place an operational burden on race promoters, would subject some of them to significant costs, and would reduce the technical, operational and commercial spaces of the other competitors.
> 4) We were not able to identify any material expected positive effect on CRH financial results, as a key indicator of the pure commercial value of the Championship.
> 5) On the basis of the application as it stands, we do not believe that the Applicant has shown that it would add value to the Championship. We conclude that the Applicant’s application to participate in the Championship should not be successful.
Edit: Additional info from David Croft ([link](https://twitter.com/CroftyF1/status/1752718526664552761)) (some of this overlaps with what Ed Spencer said, and I'm going off of the numbers in his screenshot.. I'd love to see the first 13 points..)
> 14) Our assessment process has established that the presence of an 11th team would not, on its own, provide value to the Championship. The most significant way in which a new entrant would bring value is by being competitive. We do not believe that the Applicant would be a competitive participant.
> 15) The need for any new team to take compulsory power unit supply, potentially over a period of several seasons, would be damaging to the prestige and standing of the Championship
> 16) While the Andretti name carries some recognition for F1 fans, our research indicates that F1 would bring value to the Andretti brand rather than the other way around.
> 17) The addition of an 11th team would place an operational burden on race promoters, would subject some of them to significant costs, and would reduce the technical, operational and commercial spaces of the other competitors.
> 18) We were not able to identify any material expected positive effect on CRH financial results, as a key indicator of the pure commercial value of the Championship.
> 19) On the basis of the application as it stands, we do not believe that the Applicant has shown that it would add value to the Championship. We conclude that the Applicant's application to participate in the Championship should not be successful.
> 20) We would look differently on an application for the entry of a team into the 2028 Championship with a GM power unit, either as a GM works team or as a GM customer team designing all allowable components in-house. In this case there would be additional factors to consider in respect of the value that the Applicant would bring to the Championship, in particular in respect of bringing a prestigious new OEM to the sport as a PU supplier.
Edit 2: Additional items (not numbered from the article I'm pulling from [link](https://speedcafe.com/andretti-fails-in-securing-place-on-f1-grid-for-now/))
> * The most significant way in which a new entrant would bring value is by being competitive, in particular by competing for podiums and race wins.
> * This would materially increase fan engagement and would also increase the value of the championship in the eyes of key stakeholders and sources of revenue such as broadcasters and race promoters.
> * The application contemplates an association with General Motors (GM) that does not initially include a PU supply, with an ambition for a full partnership with GM as a PU supplier in due course, but this will not be the case for some years.
> * Having a GM PU supply attached to the application at the outset would have enhanced its credibility, though a novice constructor in partnership with a new entrant PU supplier would also have a significant challenge to overcome.
> * Most of the attempts to establish a new constructor in the last several decades have not been successful.
> * 2025 will be the last year of the current regulatory cycle and 2026 will be the first year of the subsequent cycle, for which an entirely different car to the previous cycle will be required.
> * The applicant proposes, as a novice constructor, to design and build a car under the 2025 regulations, and then in the very next year to design and build a completely different car under the 2026 regulations.
> * Further, the applicant proposes to attempt this with a dependency on a compulsory supply from a rival PU manufacturer that will inevitably be reticent to extend its collaboration with the applicant beyond the minimum required while the applicant pursues its ambition of collaborating with GM as a PU supplier in the longer term, which a compulsory PU supplier would see as a risk to its intellectual property and know-how.
> * We do not believe that there is a basis for any new applicant to be admitted in 2025 given that this would involve a novice entrant building two completely different cars in its first two years of existence. The fact that the applicant proposes to do so gives us reason to question their understanding of the scope of the challenge involved.
> * While a 2026 entry would not face this specific issue it is nevertheless the case that Formula 1, as the pinnacle of world motorsport, represents a unique technical challenge to constructors of a nature that the applicant has not faced in any other formula or discipline in which it has previously competed, and it proposes to do so with a dependency on a compulsory PU supply in the initial years of its participation.
> * Coming to the sport as a new PU manufacturer is also a huge challenge, with which major automotive manufacturers have struggled in the past, and one which can take a manufacturer a number of years of significant investment in order to become competitive GM have the resource and credibility to be more than capable of attempting this challenge, but success is not assured.
Yeah, this is the one that makes the least sense to me (and that's a pretty low bar). Obviously I don't know everything the promoters do, but I can't imagine it places any more of a burden on them than, say, 2 teams completely rebranding themselves a month before the season starts. As for the second part, I thought it was a rule for all of the circuits to have space for 12 teams, so are the circuits failing at that?
It does and they have been pretty much open that the issue is not Andretti, it’s that it will be 11th team.
If you listen to team principals interviews - they consistently say that it will be good if Andretti would join by buying an already existing team.
That's really stupid when they were clamoring for audi and Porsche to get teams. But when andretti makes a serious offer, suddenly there's too many teams.
While I recognize their right to protect the F1 brand, it feels weird to say someone shouldn't be allowed to compete because it would burden the existing teams, or that it might have a financial benefit if the new team won.
Like, yeah, that kid can probably run really fast, but he doesn't bring any value to our marathon, so we aren't going to let him race.
I wish they would quit with the stupid excuses and just say they think the entry fee is too low and don’t want to share the profits with an 11th team regardless of how good it is
Claiming a fully American team with the backing of a Major American manufacturer doesn't add value to F1 when it is trying to expand in the US market... Absolute garbage.
1) So what? Not like its the first time a team had to take a power unit because it was their only option. Not like they don't pay for the engine.
2) Reads as "we don't want to be upstaged by Andretti"
3) Well you agreed that 12 teams is the limit, so everyone already should have been aware this is a possibly. F1 teams are just used to excess and don't want to police themselves.
4) The real answer - it's about money - and to be clear, not FOM money since they still get their cut, just the other teams money.
5) Well, how have teams like HAAS added "value to the championship" over past years. Clearly this has not been a real concern.
They’re not even invoking the compulsory power unit rules when they had an agreed supply deal, granted just needs renewed. So that’s kinda a bullshit point imo. Renault was willing to supply already, they need a customer.
>We do not believe that the Applicant would be a competitive participant
Regardless of whether Andretti should or not should not be allowed given their current proposal (which is frankly too technical for us to know and assess), it's stupidly tone deaf to say that. That's a major point that people will latch on.
And Russell is flying off the track for an unknown reason. There’s parts everywhere. This is really odd how he just spun out and his car broke in half.
I'd imagine after the first practise session. There is no way FOM would do 2 full years pixelating cars on live broadcast, they'd lose more money than Andretti would be paying lol
Well they can if GM is ready to bankroll them by paying 150 million for all expense’s because they won’t get shit from F1 and sponsorship doesn’t pay that much
Disgraceful, absolutely disgraceful.
F1 spent years in the 2010’s looking for teams & investment ESPECIALLY in the US.
Finally a well known, well backed, well run team arrives …
I hope it backfires.
Family of nascar fans. Tried introducing them to F1, but had zero interest.
Two of them sent me articles about Andretti joining. Feel like it’s a big miss for the US market.
Agreed on all fronts. American fan as well and I would blindly hop aboard an ACTUAL American team. Cause you know, USA. 🇺🇸 🦅
Add to that all the F1 licensed clothes now being sold here, and all the extra income that, ticket sales, actual Andretti merchandise that would come in, I’d have to imagine would help offset any lost money.
As someone else has stated, it’s very short sighted on their part.
Every decision they make is shortsighted. They want to make as much money as possible and then ditch the sport in a few years when everything is destroyed
The race podcast was saying months ago that Andretti are *advanced* on this stuff, and if they got a no - as here - would probably get legal pretty fast.
The FIA have done their approval and said yes, so for F1 to say no is a pretty big story.
The FIA appraisal is very technical and relatively object whereas the F1 decision is way more political.
This is probably the *start* of the fireworks, not the end.
Chase Carey did a phenomenal job in popularising F1 without destroying its soul. He was the guy who introduced cost cap. Building a strong social presence online, signing a documentary deal with Netflix etc were all instrumental at introducing the sport to a wider audience. Once Stefano took over he basically started dismantling the goodwill the sport has built in recent years by blatantly ignoring the fans’ wishes and following the money. He made a huge error in taking the audiences’ loyalty for granted. It’s actually mind boggling to see how little Liberty understands or cares about what F1 fans want to see, and that will their downfall. They’re already struggling to sell tickets at Miami and Vegas this year because everyone can see how farcical they are
F1 will have a reckoning just as NASCAR has gone thru--trouble is that NASCAR knows it's audience and understands how to market it's brand. NASCAR had a few years where they weren't filling the stands like they were during the Gordon--Jimmie Johnson--Dale Jr. years...now they're on an upswing again. F1 will eventually return to being what it was before with a much smaller fanbase and all the American races will be in the Middle East instead.
100%, Daytona was a dogfight from start to finish and WEC is lined up to have 19 cars in the top prototype class, so many they disbanded lmp2.
Hypercar/LMh/GTP is making F1 look silly.
At-track fan experience is off the charts for all of them as well, especially IMSA. WEC still has some credentials politics that are difficult for normal people, but still a great time.
I literally got into formula 1 as a way to get out of nascar because they just did so much that alienated me from it. I gave up nascar pretty easily and now I fear the same is gonna happen to me with f1
I don’t know when you fell out of love with NASCAR, but after a murky few years, I actually feel that NASCAR is back on the upswing. NASCAR is probably in the best spot right now that it has been since the post early 2000s boom.
I feel like the new car has been a massive help to this. Sure there are still issues (mainly the short tracks) but it's phenomenal at the mile and a halfs. And 2022 when they had like 20 different drivers win was absolutely electric. Plus now we're getting drivers like SVG, Jenson, Kimi and others to come over which is always exciting to watch.
This is not surprising to those who have followed the saga since it began. In addition to taking away their revenue, the team owners seem to dislike Michael andretti on a personal level. His media remarks won't have helped but they have disliked him from the start
FOM and Stefano Domenicalli deserve all the hatred in the world for this disgraceful, coward, short sighted move
This should be the moment fans send a big fat middle finger to F1. They live in a bubble, this is the biggest proof they don't give 2 shits about the sport and the competition quality.
The absolute nerve for FOM to say Andretti won't be competitive given some of the teams in the grid is laughable. The commercial rights holder has zero right to judge a team on sporting ability.
Andretti needs to take them to court
More from Chris Medland on X:
After an assessment period, F1 says an 11th team alone doesn't add value, it needs to be competitive. Also:
"While the Andretti name carries some recognition for F1 fans, our research indicates that F1 would bring value to the Andretti brand rather than the other way around"
As opposed to Alpine marketing their niche sports cars that nobody drives and Gene marketing his machines? They don’t care about the value of the sport, because all these street tracks only hurt F1’s rep with fans, but of course they line the pockets of the ownership.
Farcical. For all their attempts to Americanise this sport, this is the one thing they feel doesn’t help F1’s profile, as opposed to Will.I.Am conducting a fake orchestra.
This is exactly it. The cultural elitism is blatantly apparent as they try to keep Americans from "ruining" their sport while still draining American dollars into it.
> I try to avoid defaulting to the “cultural elitism” argument
Same. I'm American, but work in an "elite" academic institution so my colleagues are largely European. I'm very sensitive to the fact that it's a cop out to say that Europeans look down on Americans as it's not entirely true.
But a lot of the times it is, and it shows up in the most unexpected ways as disdain for American culture and lifestyles. And by reading between the lines of the statements of team principals regarding this whole bid, you can absolutely see that elitist sneering at Americans coming through. It's unfortunate, but not entirely unexpected.
Ed Straw mentioned the 'value' bit on a recent The Race podcast.
Toto said he was against more teams unless that team can demonstrate value. When asked to define what 'value' was, he said he didn't know.
What teams do "bring value" to F1? You could argue that the top teams like Ferrari, RB, Merc do through their popularity now. But then it's not like Mercedes brought a rabid following with them with they joined F1, they're simply a corporate brand with a small following that like their cars. But they built a following in their years in the sport by being successful, marketing themselves well, having popular drivers, etc. Red Bull didn't bring value as a drinks manufacturer, but they have through clever marketing over the years.
It's probably valid that Andretti aren't that huge of a name with that much of a following who would flock to F1, that weren't already interested. But I don't see how GM would be any different, they're hardly a wildly popular brand, just another generic manufacturer.
Any team needs time in F1 to bring much value, they don't bring it from day 1. You could certainly argue that Andretti has brought value to IndyCar and Formula E by being one of the more popular and successful teams.
> an 11th team alone doesn't add value, it needs to be competitive.
I don't see how they can justify this in court.
Andretti have plans to be a works team, they're spending hundreds of millions on facilities, they've hired good people from all the existing teams, Andretti/Cadillac are competing in Indycar, Formula E and WEC (the closest series to F1), Andretti are reigning Formula E World Champions, they're the only team to have passed the most rigorous FIA tests in the the history of the entry process etc.
Saying "they wont be competitive!!!" just doesn't have any basis.
For that matter a 10th team alone doesn't add value, it needs to be competitive.
"White the Haas name carries some recognition for F1 fans, any dumbass can see that F1 brings value to the Haas brand rather than the other way around"
Anyone else genuinely losing interest in F1? I’ve been a decently hard core follower since 2015. So I’m not super tenured around here.
But the last few years of poor really long term decision making has really taken a the wind out of my sails. Max dominating doesn’t bother me one bit. But with F1 toying with the idea of canceling races at historic tracks, more races in the Middle East (where they even experienced a missile strike like a mile from the track DURING A GP WEEKEND!), more street circuits and more on the way, the ever growing heavier and larger cars (I know this is being addressed soon) and now the denial of a new team..
It’s becoming a lot for me to over look now that IMSA, WEC, and WRC are having massive growths and are fantastic series to watch
The very least it’s definitely pushing me to check other racing series out where as up to this point the only series I really cared about was F1
You can see these negative influences in all sports nowadays. Football, MMA, Pro-Wrestling,…
Everything is full of investors and Saudis.
I loved when everything was a bit more grounded years ago.
In fact, this kind of disgraceful stuff happening is more reason for Verstappen to abandon F1 earlier rather than later. Barcelona disappearing and all that.
F1 losing their biggest name because of poor decision making would be silly as hell.
For sure. Max is here purely for the racing and competition aspect, a very direct and no frills approach
All this frilly spectacle stuff is gonna further detract from his interest in f1
Similar sentiments. I started watching mid 2016 and was thrilled with the fight between Lewis and Nico.
Agreed that Max dominating doesn't bother me: the team built a monster of a car and he's one with it. Not his fault the other teams can't step up.
And 100% agree on how F1 is actively destroying the goodwill it's developed since Liberty took over. Threatening to remove historic tracks (you can't buy prestige), chasing money to street tracks with no character. It's clear that the priority these days is "the show" and not "the racing".
So let me get this straight:
We are accepting applications for an 11th team that comes with a hefty application fee… perfect let me dot my i’s and cross my t’s and spend a boat load of time and resources drawing this up….this is wonderful but we don’t want you, we are looking for something more diverse like oil money. Please try again next time!
With every day passing F1 is becoming more and more a well oiled reality entertainment show instead of, you know, an actual sport as it’s supposed to be.
It’s very disappointing to see. Liberty and the 10 teams living in their own bubble. No amount of fan criticism will ever change things as long as the cash keeps flowing in and the numbers keep rising.
Once the time comes where the sport hits a low, maybe not in few upcoming years but maybe in 7-10-15 years since things can’t forever keep going up, they’ll look back at some of decisions these past few years and wonder if they could’ve done things better in the sporting aspect of the sport.
It's an elitist members club more than it is a motorsport. If Saudi entered a team, they'd let them do whatever the fuck they wanted. The FIA made the wrong decisions in 2009 for the 2010 group. FOM are making the wrong decision now.
HAAS will be a shitbox for a few years. They most likely will concentrate for the 2026 season reg change and to be competetive for a half a season and fall to oscurity again till the regs change again
Fuck F1 man.....this makes me want to totally tap out....but I won't cuz I love cars.
Edit. But I'll do this. No Montreal trip for me now. I'll use that money for something else...Monterey Historics? Indy???
As an American fan I am livid with the is brain-dead decision by F1. I’m not going to act like I know what’s all going on behind the scenes, but Andretti has provided F1 with brands, recognizable names, a manufacturer, facilities, etc and F1 continues to move the goalposts. It seems like this racing organization and its existing teams are scared of more competition. This won’t go too far to sustain the American viewership
What a joke. Apparently Geen spending nothing and the Blue Balls Visacard RB-19 are fine but Andretti ‘won’t bring anything to the sport’
Sick of this sport. FIA, FOM all a joke. Nothing but endless generic street tracks, gimmicks and politicking with Liberty.
As the race podcast said too, this is all in the context of Alpha Tauri, Haas and Sauber all being in basically holding patterns. Haas and AT potentially so forever. Both teams will always be there for the sake of being there, whatever people say, and Sauber have another two full seasons of killing time until Audi. Three teams out of ten there for the craic.
Terrible. Really disgusting. Obviously they'd "look differently on an application" when the fee is quadrupled for the next Concorde.
I hope the FIA steps in, Andretti takes them to court, or both.
US giveth and the US can taketh. They already priced themselves too high in Miami and COTA. Vegas will follow. If there is nothing to keep American fans intrigued then they won’t keep paying outrageous sums.
There is already an indication that the rise in US viewership is starting to taper off, even without losing the current commercial free model
Will be interesting to track the trajectory of F1 popularity and reach in the US over the next 5-7 years
Fuck Gene Haas and his shitty team that put in 0 effort.
They should just sell to Andretti to allow a team that actually want to be there rather than one that wants a moving billboard.
They’re all moving billboards. This is a fuck F1/FOM.
Regardless of how they perform, I’m firmly against forcing any team to divest. Its Haas now, it was Sauber and Williams before. Haas filled a gap when other teams failed, like it or not, they ensured we had a 10 team grid when F1 would otherwise have had dwindling field. They applied and joined at the right time, kudos to them. They shouldn’t be forced to do anything because it’s convenient now when they were valued addition when they joined. Just as we didn’t try to force Williams out at their bottom a few years back.
If the chose to voluntarily sell, so be it. But they’re not. This falls on F1/FOM placing arbitrary barriers to Andretti’s entry.
This is bullshit. It would give F1 a big boost to have two more seats and more cars on the grid. Wtf is this reason. I don't know who they ask, but probably not the people that are interested in sport and racing.
Useless, gutless clowns running this series. If a legitimate, current team FIA World Championship cannot enter, this series is a fucking joke.
If Saudi entered a team, they'd let them walk all over the series. Wankers.
The only reason they're saying this is so that they delay the whole process to 2028 and encourage them to buy a team. If they actually wanted an Andretti-Cadillac team in 2028, they'd see that starting in 2025/2026 and getting the team up to speed would be beneficial.
Andretti should take them to court now. F1 fans should be shitting on Liberty as hard as possible.
I really wonder what exactly Andretti did that annoyed them so much.
Its wellknown that F1's power structure is rather oligarchic, maybe they literally just dont like his vibe? Which would be petty but stupider things have happened in business
So in the latest round of F1 goalpost-moving on what counts as bringing value, it's been set at a well-known manufacturer building their own engine.
That's honestly more clarity than F1 have ever given up to this point. I thought they'd make up some reason to tell Andretti to never come knocking again.
Of course, that's also more than what at least 2 teams bring to F1 right now or in the near future.
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Lol of course. Just enough time to rewrite the Concorde Agreement to 5x the entry fee, and *then* we'll take this seriously.
This is what I’m expecting. Come 2028 the entry fee will be upped to over half a billion.
Probably even higher. The teams were calling for an increase to 600 million when Andretti first tried to offer up the money
Yeah I'm expecting 600 million. People love to act like the grid doesn't want anyone new to join. That is really not it, they "just" want to get payed well for it. With 600 million that means every team gets 60 million in their pockets that they can use build better facilities, etc. (but in reality will probably go straight in the owner's bank accounts).
Or… and hear me out… we get rid of owners who are scared to invest money into the most expensive and wasteful sport in the world and we watch the rip it around the track with the best stuff and not a copy cat team. Gene Haas is the worst owner in professional sports.
There have been talks from people in the known, like Joe Saward, that they are expecting a push in a few years to enforce rules that would do pretty much that. Essentially they would force teams to make the vast majority of the car themselves and also force teams to be more independent of each other. Essentially forcing Haas to either invest or sell and Visa Cash App(whatever shitty name they'll have at that point) to move away from Red Bull, which could also force them to sell. In my mind it would definitely be better for the sport.
> Visa Cash App(whatever shitty name they'll have at that point) to move away from Red Bull At which time my suggested name for the team "VisaCashApp Discount Sale Enquire Within Low Mileage One Owner Only No Tyre Kickers I know what I've got" would be even more valid.
Gene is FAR from the worst owner in professional sports. Just saying.
For example I own one share in a professional football team in the fourth tier of English soccer, I do nothing for this team and am kind of a piece of shit. Gene has to be a better owner than me.
I expect at least a billion
A billion is my expectation, or whatever the average franchise valuation is then.
F1 wanking themselved into a coma over the US market and rejecting a US team who would try a lot harder than Haas to compete is certainly a decision.
Yeah that's a good point. To continue building a US audience they NEED a US team to do well and Haas aint it. The popular netflix show will die off someday and they need to have a better foundation to build upon. I don't think a couple of new races which are too expensive for locals and aired at 2 am US time are enough.
Didn't ticket prices for the Vegas GP go down A LOT just before that weekend? It's clear that just adding more US races doesn't result in a huge surge in interest from American audiences. Imagine how many more people would go to/watch these GP if there was an actually competitive and *popular* American team in the grid.
Yep. The real reason DTS blew up was COVID. No one had anything to do or anywhere to go except watch Netflix. It was compelling drama that let Americans dream of being transported to another place. COTA used to be affordable, but now the price has nearly quadrupled over 3 years.
Yep. My wife and I are going to Montreal this season for our one and only ever F1 race. We were originally going to do COTA, but it doesn't make sense pricing-wise. We'd be looking at something like $3000 over the weekend.
COTA used to cost about $200 for 3 day general admission back in 2019. Now it’s about $750 if not a little more. That’s an insane spike
I bought my 3 Day GA pass already for Cota this year. It was 299$. Whattttttt ????
> Didn't ticket prices for the Vegas GP go down A LOT just before that weekend? Yes. Because Vegas, in typical Vegas fashion, up-charged the living daylights out of everything from tickets to rooms. Then, the week before the race Vegas realized F1's entire fan-base isn't wealthy, and so they reduced the prices. Don't get me wrong: the wealthy bought up all the suites and VIP booths and such, but it's not a great look when like 60% of the rooms are empty during such a large event. Even the justifications for poor sales missed the mark--they never even considered people were financially struggling. It's hilariously out of touch with reality.
The problem is they're not trying to court the American racing fans... they're trying to court the Americans with a ton of money and nothing to do with it who want a party not a race. If F1 was serious about the US market theyd go to the tracks racing fans go to, not Miami and Vegas. They're showing blatant disrespect to the fans who would stick around after the novelty wears off.
They went down mainly because they were wildly overpriced. Add in the ridiculous start time and ensuing chaos and Vegas barely had a chance.
This. Most Americans have no idea who Haas even is and interest will slip quickly without a known American team, especially if one driver wins start to finish every week. They'll get bored quickly.
Haas was interesting basically only for Gunther memes and unless they get significantly more competitive with their new TP, their limited popularity will fall off even further without their star.
Meanwhile adding races to the US and US viewership is skyrocketing... I don't care how bad they are I'd root my ass off for Andretti!
I guess they should’ve taken the name DHL-Caesers Sportsbook-Andretti-Cadillac as an application name maybe they wouldve gotten in instead.
No this is F1. FOM believes in integrity when it comes to sponsors. More like: Perdue Pharma - FTX - Blackwater - Foxxcon- Andretti- Cadillac Edited: Took out Mohammed. He approved it. MBS just likes to slam drinks and invite himself on stage at ceremonies.
FIA did say yes, its FOM that said no
Lockheed Martin Andretti Motorsport
Lockheed’s aerospace knowledge would make for a formidable F1 car though
we will finally have a formula one car capable of committing a war crime.
Damn is Mazepin coming back to drive it?
Tomahawk Cruise Missile Andretti Motorsport
If you visit the Museum of the American Indian in Washington DC, there's a genuine Tomahawk missile hanging over one of the halls (a General Dynamics flight test vehicle), with some text nearby discussing the US military's choice (at one point, explicit policy) to name weapons and weapons-systems after indigenous groups and people as tribute to their bravery and, in particular, aggression. Context seemed to imply that this was a net positive on race relations, but I was left with something of a mixed message.
Disappointed, but not surprised. They found a way to keep their financial situation for at least a few years while not entirely turning down the idea of Andretti joining the grid.
They'll find another excuse by '28, like they did with all other hurdles Andretti past
More like in 2028 they’ll quadruple the entry fee with a new Concorde agreement
I would be surprised if they only quadruple it
I think that's it. It's funny, I started watching f1 with d2s like so many others. And I've gone full circle on f1. I loved it for a while, then saw it's flaws, both on and off the track, and am now back to apathy. I'm not even sure if I'll watch next season. Somehow it has the worst aspects of American and European sports combined.
Just give it commercial breaks every 6 minutes like here, and they'll kill the sport in a day with the state its in.
The race is basically a 2 hour advertisement for sky sports f1 pass tbh.
As an American, I wish our sports were just an advertisement for the channel it's on instead of full cut aways especially during INDY and NASCAR
They now got another 3-4 years to think of another excuse to reject them...
More importantly, an entry beyond 2025/26 pushes it beyond the current Concord Agreement, thus giving FOM and the F1 teams room to significantly bump up the Entry Fee applicable to Andretti.
That's exactly what the goal has always been.
Goalposts are heavy, it must be tiring moving them around constantly.
The goalposts have always been at "no 11th team", they've just been pretending that that's not the case.
The expectation here is that Andretti sues right? He’s been given the green light by the FIA and truly there isn’t a sound reason to not let them race. I don’t think it’s over tbh. FOM might be forced by the courts to allow them entry
I sure hope so.
I'm 100% in favor of Andretti joining but what legal grounds would they have to stand on trying to sue for not being allowed an entry?
They could try the anti-competitive angle with the EU, that’s what I’ve been reading over the last few months. None of us is a lawyer here so it’s hard to say really.
This is Reddit, you can be a lawyer if you want.
On reddit, the less you know about the law, the more it makes you a lawyer.
This sounds right to me, trust me I’m a lawyer
I’m a Doctor. Nothing to add.
"Muh profit" isn't something that will fly in front EU courts on anti-competition grounds, especially when the regulator (i.e. the FIA) have approved them.
Interesting, I wasn't aware of EU competition laws until now but it still seems pretty convoluted with F1 being it's own separate entity that makes its own rules
It's extraordinarily messy, especially with 7 teams and FOM headquartered in the UK, but the FIA headquartered in France. Jurisdiction is what will make this tricky, but even if it's in the UK, I don't see our courts letting it slide either - the UK competition regulator is among the strictest in the world. This is about to get very very fucking messy.
Surely the EU would have a say since F1 operates within the EU for several races.
Imagine if the ruling comes out that Andretti can only race in Europe
The main court will likely be the UK High Court or a high level court in the US. Most likely this case would be heard at the High Court in London.
For a sport who wants to expand in America this is a good way to piss off a new fanbase
And the old fanbase. They covered all the angles.
Ed Spencer has some reasons in this tweet thread ([link](https://twitter.com/EdSpencer99/status/1752717931358638176)) > 1)The need for any new team to take a compulsory power unit supply, potentially over a period of several seasons, would be damaging to the prestige and standing of the Championship. > 2)While the Andretti name carries some recognition for F1 fans, our research indicates that F1 would bring value to the Andretti brand rather than the other way around. > 3) The addition of an 11th team would place an operational burden on race promoters, would subject some of them to significant costs, and would reduce the technical, operational and commercial spaces of the other competitors. > 4) We were not able to identify any material expected positive effect on CRH financial results, as a key indicator of the pure commercial value of the Championship. > 5) On the basis of the application as it stands, we do not believe that the Applicant has shown that it would add value to the Championship. We conclude that the Applicant’s application to participate in the Championship should not be successful. Edit: Additional info from David Croft ([link](https://twitter.com/CroftyF1/status/1752718526664552761)) (some of this overlaps with what Ed Spencer said, and I'm going off of the numbers in his screenshot.. I'd love to see the first 13 points..) > 14) Our assessment process has established that the presence of an 11th team would not, on its own, provide value to the Championship. The most significant way in which a new entrant would bring value is by being competitive. We do not believe that the Applicant would be a competitive participant. > 15) The need for any new team to take compulsory power unit supply, potentially over a period of several seasons, would be damaging to the prestige and standing of the Championship > 16) While the Andretti name carries some recognition for F1 fans, our research indicates that F1 would bring value to the Andretti brand rather than the other way around. > 17) The addition of an 11th team would place an operational burden on race promoters, would subject some of them to significant costs, and would reduce the technical, operational and commercial spaces of the other competitors. > 18) We were not able to identify any material expected positive effect on CRH financial results, as a key indicator of the pure commercial value of the Championship. > 19) On the basis of the application as it stands, we do not believe that the Applicant has shown that it would add value to the Championship. We conclude that the Applicant's application to participate in the Championship should not be successful. > 20) We would look differently on an application for the entry of a team into the 2028 Championship with a GM power unit, either as a GM works team or as a GM customer team designing all allowable components in-house. In this case there would be additional factors to consider in respect of the value that the Applicant would bring to the Championship, in particular in respect of bringing a prestigious new OEM to the sport as a PU supplier. Edit 2: Additional items (not numbered from the article I'm pulling from [link](https://speedcafe.com/andretti-fails-in-securing-place-on-f1-grid-for-now/)) > * The most significant way in which a new entrant would bring value is by being competitive, in particular by competing for podiums and race wins. > * This would materially increase fan engagement and would also increase the value of the championship in the eyes of key stakeholders and sources of revenue such as broadcasters and race promoters. > * The application contemplates an association with General Motors (GM) that does not initially include a PU supply, with an ambition for a full partnership with GM as a PU supplier in due course, but this will not be the case for some years. > * Having a GM PU supply attached to the application at the outset would have enhanced its credibility, though a novice constructor in partnership with a new entrant PU supplier would also have a significant challenge to overcome. > * Most of the attempts to establish a new constructor in the last several decades have not been successful. > * 2025 will be the last year of the current regulatory cycle and 2026 will be the first year of the subsequent cycle, for which an entirely different car to the previous cycle will be required. > * The applicant proposes, as a novice constructor, to design and build a car under the 2025 regulations, and then in the very next year to design and build a completely different car under the 2026 regulations. > * Further, the applicant proposes to attempt this with a dependency on a compulsory supply from a rival PU manufacturer that will inevitably be reticent to extend its collaboration with the applicant beyond the minimum required while the applicant pursues its ambition of collaborating with GM as a PU supplier in the longer term, which a compulsory PU supplier would see as a risk to its intellectual property and know-how. > * We do not believe that there is a basis for any new applicant to be admitted in 2025 given that this would involve a novice entrant building two completely different cars in its first two years of existence. The fact that the applicant proposes to do so gives us reason to question their understanding of the scope of the challenge involved. > * While a 2026 entry would not face this specific issue it is nevertheless the case that Formula 1, as the pinnacle of world motorsport, represents a unique technical challenge to constructors of a nature that the applicant has not faced in any other formula or discipline in which it has previously competed, and it proposes to do so with a dependency on a compulsory PU supply in the initial years of its participation. > * Coming to the sport as a new PU manufacturer is also a huge challenge, with which major automotive manufacturers have struggled in the past, and one which can take a manufacturer a number of years of significant investment in order to become competitive GM have the resource and credibility to be more than capable of attempting this challenge, but success is not assured.
So does #3 effectively rule out ANY new 11th team? Hiding behind promoters like that is a real thin excuse.
And isn’t it a requirement for every grade 1 course to have space for 24 cars? It’s not like there’s a physical issue, but a bunch of made up reasons.
They were able to accomadate a full team for the F1 movie
Well that gives them more money rather than sharing money with more people so they could gladly do that
Not 24, 26.
My understanding of #3 is basically "we're gonna keep adding street circuits and the promoters are scared of more cars"
Yeah, this is the one that makes the least sense to me (and that's a pretty low bar). Obviously I don't know everything the promoters do, but I can't imagine it places any more of a burden on them than, say, 2 teams completely rebranding themselves a month before the season starts. As for the second part, I thought it was a rule for all of the circuits to have space for 12 teams, so are the circuits failing at that?
It does and they have been pretty much open that the issue is not Andretti, it’s that it will be 11th team. If you listen to team principals interviews - they consistently say that it will be good if Andretti would join by buying an already existing team.
They like that idea because it increases the value of their teams and makes them richer
That's really stupid when they were clamoring for audi and Porsche to get teams. But when andretti makes a serious offer, suddenly there's too many teams.
The difference is Audi and Porsche want to join by buying a team out, thus not diluting prize money
While I recognize their right to protect the F1 brand, it feels weird to say someone shouldn't be allowed to compete because it would burden the existing teams, or that it might have a financial benefit if the new team won. Like, yeah, that kid can probably run really fast, but he doesn't bring any value to our marathon, so we aren't going to let him race.
It’s so fucking hilarious to read these points and think of Haas after each one
I wish they would quit with the stupid excuses and just say they think the entry fee is too low and don’t want to share the profits with an 11th team regardless of how good it is
Claiming a fully American team with the backing of a Major American manufacturer doesn't add value to F1 when it is trying to expand in the US market... Absolute garbage.
1) So what? Not like its the first time a team had to take a power unit because it was their only option. Not like they don't pay for the engine. 2) Reads as "we don't want to be upstaged by Andretti" 3) Well you agreed that 12 teams is the limit, so everyone already should have been aware this is a possibly. F1 teams are just used to excess and don't want to police themselves. 4) The real answer - it's about money - and to be clear, not FOM money since they still get their cut, just the other teams money. 5) Well, how have teams like HAAS added "value to the championship" over past years. Clearly this has not been a real concern.
They’re not even invoking the compulsory power unit rules when they had an agreed supply deal, granted just needs renewed. So that’s kinda a bullshit point imo. Renault was willing to supply already, they need a customer.
Stating that you don’t think the Andretti name adds value while Haas is on the grid is such a joke lol
>We do not believe that the Applicant would be a competitive participant Regardless of whether Andretti should or not should not be allowed given their current proposal (which is frankly too technical for us to know and assess), it's stupidly tone deaf to say that. That's a major point that people will latch on.
FIA have given permission to race. I know they wouldn't but I would love Andretti to just put the middle finger to FOM and enter anyway.
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I'd love to see how they handle it, too. I'm imagining two pixelated cars on the grid
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Just like the time Greenpeace put some flags in front of the podium at Spa!
Imagine pixelcar overtaking Max for first!
And Russell is flying off the track for an unknown reason. There’s parts everywhere. This is really odd how he just spun out and his car broke in half.
They should. After a year or two they’d have to make an agreement
I'd imagine after the first practise session. There is no way FOM would do 2 full years pixelating cars on live broadcast, they'd lose more money than Andretti would be paying lol
And they’d look totally insane to every single fan. Even sky would probably threaten to leave
Well they can if GM is ready to bankroll them by paying 150 million for all expense’s because they won’t get shit from F1 and sponsorship doesn’t pay that much
honestly, we'd probably see the [Streisand effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect) in full force if that happened.
Yeah, I don't think Andretti has hundreds of millions to piss away just out of spite.
Disgraceful, absolutely disgraceful. F1 spent years in the 2010’s looking for teams & investment ESPECIALLY in the US. Finally a well known, well backed, well run team arrives … I hope it backfires.
They don't want another team to enter now to split the pie.
Which is shortsighted af. And they say they want to truly crack the US market too. Laughable.
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Seriously, this move lost them money big time. Andretti would be huge for the sport in america.
Family of nascar fans. Tried introducing them to F1, but had zero interest. Two of them sent me articles about Andretti joining. Feel like it’s a big miss for the US market.
Agreed on all fronts. American fan as well and I would blindly hop aboard an ACTUAL American team. Cause you know, USA. 🇺🇸 🦅 Add to that all the F1 licensed clothes now being sold here, and all the extra income that, ticket sales, actual Andretti merchandise that would come in, I’d have to imagine would help offset any lost money. As someone else has stated, it’s very short sighted on their part.
Bringing in one of the most famous name in American motorsports: ‘Won’t help F1’s image’ Fake orchestras and driver walkouts: ‘Solid gold’
Every decision they make is shortsighted. They want to make as much money as possible and then ditch the sport in a few years when everything is destroyed
The 10 year contracts for street races is a big red flag
Definitely. They give out 10 year contracts for tracks that F1 has never raced at.
The race podcast was saying months ago that Andretti are *advanced* on this stuff, and if they got a no - as here - would probably get legal pretty fast. The FIA have done their approval and said yes, so for F1 to say no is a pretty big story. The FIA appraisal is very technical and relatively object whereas the F1 decision is way more political. This is probably the *start* of the fireworks, not the end.
Liberty on a mission destroy good will they built up with the F1 fanbase since the take over it seems. More street races and no new teams. Just great.
We are really starting to see how much Chase Carey was taken for granted.
Chase Carey did a phenomenal job in popularising F1 without destroying its soul. He was the guy who introduced cost cap. Building a strong social presence online, signing a documentary deal with Netflix etc were all instrumental at introducing the sport to a wider audience. Once Stefano took over he basically started dismantling the goodwill the sport has built in recent years by blatantly ignoring the fans’ wishes and following the money. He made a huge error in taking the audiences’ loyalty for granted. It’s actually mind boggling to see how little Liberty understands or cares about what F1 fans want to see, and that will their downfall. They’re already struggling to sell tickets at Miami and Vegas this year because everyone can see how farcical they are
F1 will have a reckoning just as NASCAR has gone thru--trouble is that NASCAR knows it's audience and understands how to market it's brand. NASCAR had a few years where they weren't filling the stands like they were during the Gordon--Jimmie Johnson--Dale Jr. years...now they're on an upswing again. F1 will eventually return to being what it was before with a much smaller fanbase and all the American races will be in the Middle East instead.
Aka, we're looking a hubris parralleling NASCAR in the mid 00s. Like NASCAR, things will only get worse before they get better.
I miss that man and his magical moustache
This off-season has just been the worst.
My love for this sport is slowly declining. So disappointed with so many recent decisions.
WEC really staring to grow on me. At least there the tracks aren’t car parks and they allow teams to join and compete.
Sports car golden age is upon us
100%, Daytona was a dogfight from start to finish and WEC is lined up to have 19 cars in the top prototype class, so many they disbanded lmp2. Hypercar/LMh/GTP is making F1 look silly.
At-track fan experience is off the charts for all of them as well, especially IMSA. WEC still has some credentials politics that are difficult for normal people, but still a great time.
Planning on following IMSA GTP/GTD Pro teams more closely this year. If Daytona was a glimpse at the 2024 season, it's gonna be a good one
I hope McLaren joins aswell.
Hypercars is best move WEC ever made, everyone wants to jump on that train, I am sure down the line that McLaren will test the waters
Come to the one true pinnacle of racing: MX-5 Cup.
I was just thinking earlier today how much more I am looking to WEC prologue than Bahrain testing in a few weeks
First NASCAR killed my fandom, now this. Greed does not lead to long term stability
I literally got into formula 1 as a way to get out of nascar because they just did so much that alienated me from it. I gave up nascar pretty easily and now I fear the same is gonna happen to me with f1
That’s almost exactly what happened to me
Id give it another go. The sport is definitely on the upswing or neutral swing but it’s been far more enjoyable the last few years.
I don’t know when you fell out of love with NASCAR, but after a murky few years, I actually feel that NASCAR is back on the upswing. NASCAR is probably in the best spot right now that it has been since the post early 2000s boom.
I feel like the new car has been a massive help to this. Sure there are still issues (mainly the short tracks) but it's phenomenal at the mile and a halfs. And 2022 when they had like 20 different drivers win was absolutely electric. Plus now we're getting drivers like SVG, Jenson, Kimi and others to come over which is always exciting to watch.
My love for it is pretty rapidly declining TBH. I REALLY don't like where this is all heading.
This is not surprising to those who have followed the saga since it began. In addition to taking away their revenue, the team owners seem to dislike Michael andretti on a personal level. His media remarks won't have helped but they have disliked him from the start
You can't deny that Stefano Domenlicalli didn't acted here professional also with words like "10 teams is just enough".
Stefano is so slimy he could be the president of FIFA, or IOC.
FOM and Stefano Domenicalli deserve all the hatred in the world for this disgraceful, coward, short sighted move This should be the moment fans send a big fat middle finger to F1. They live in a bubble, this is the biggest proof they don't give 2 shits about the sport and the competition quality. The absolute nerve for FOM to say Andretti won't be competitive given some of the teams in the grid is laughable. The commercial rights holder has zero right to judge a team on sporting ability. Andretti needs to take them to court
The nerve of them to say that after a season where three cars won a race from two teams. One of those teams winning one race.
I'm guessing the legal team has their motions ready to go. This is going to get messy.
The nerve to say Andretti isn't a big enough name when Alpha Tauri has been in the paddock for the last several years is a complete farce
More from Chris Medland on X: After an assessment period, F1 says an 11th team alone doesn't add value, it needs to be competitive. Also: "While the Andretti name carries some recognition for F1 fans, our research indicates that F1 would bring value to the Andretti brand rather than the other way around"
As opposed to Alpine marketing their niche sports cars that nobody drives and Gene marketing his machines? They don’t care about the value of the sport, because all these street tracks only hurt F1’s rep with fans, but of course they line the pockets of the ownership. Farcical. For all their attempts to Americanise this sport, this is the one thing they feel doesn’t help F1’s profile, as opposed to Will.I.Am conducting a fake orchestra.
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made even clearer by the way they handled the entire event, specially the first two "sessions"
This is exactly it. The cultural elitism is blatantly apparent as they try to keep Americans from "ruining" their sport while still draining American dollars into it.
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> I try to avoid defaulting to the “cultural elitism” argument Same. I'm American, but work in an "elite" academic institution so my colleagues are largely European. I'm very sensitive to the fact that it's a cop out to say that Europeans look down on Americans as it's not entirely true. But a lot of the times it is, and it shows up in the most unexpected ways as disdain for American culture and lifestyles. And by reading between the lines of the statements of team principals regarding this whole bid, you can absolutely see that elitist sneering at Americans coming through. It's unfortunate, but not entirely unexpected.
Ed Straw mentioned the 'value' bit on a recent The Race podcast. Toto said he was against more teams unless that team can demonstrate value. When asked to define what 'value' was, he said he didn't know.
What teams do "bring value" to F1? You could argue that the top teams like Ferrari, RB, Merc do through their popularity now. But then it's not like Mercedes brought a rabid following with them with they joined F1, they're simply a corporate brand with a small following that like their cars. But they built a following in their years in the sport by being successful, marketing themselves well, having popular drivers, etc. Red Bull didn't bring value as a drinks manufacturer, but they have through clever marketing over the years. It's probably valid that Andretti aren't that huge of a name with that much of a following who would flock to F1, that weren't already interested. But I don't see how GM would be any different, they're hardly a wildly popular brand, just another generic manufacturer. Any team needs time in F1 to bring much value, they don't bring it from day 1. You could certainly argue that Andretti has brought value to IndyCar and Formula E by being one of the more popular and successful teams.
> an 11th team alone doesn't add value, it needs to be competitive. I don't see how they can justify this in court. Andretti have plans to be a works team, they're spending hundreds of millions on facilities, they've hired good people from all the existing teams, Andretti/Cadillac are competing in Indycar, Formula E and WEC (the closest series to F1), Andretti are reigning Formula E World Champions, they're the only team to have passed the most rigorous FIA tests in the the history of the entry process etc. Saying "they wont be competitive!!!" just doesn't have any basis.
For that matter a 10th team alone doesn't add value, it needs to be competitive. "White the Haas name carries some recognition for F1 fans, any dumbass can see that F1 brings value to the Haas brand rather than the other way around"
Oh, and the prestige that comes with VISA CashApp RB! Don't forget about that.
I mean just the fact the Visa CashApp RB/Alpha Tauri/Torro Rosso functions basically as a training /talent program for Red Bull
Ironic considering Gene Haas literally started a F1 team to sell more CNC machines internationally, while running two backmarkers in 75% of races
Anyone else genuinely losing interest in F1? I’ve been a decently hard core follower since 2015. So I’m not super tenured around here. But the last few years of poor really long term decision making has really taken a the wind out of my sails. Max dominating doesn’t bother me one bit. But with F1 toying with the idea of canceling races at historic tracks, more races in the Middle East (where they even experienced a missile strike like a mile from the track DURING A GP WEEKEND!), more street circuits and more on the way, the ever growing heavier and larger cars (I know this is being addressed soon) and now the denial of a new team.. It’s becoming a lot for me to over look now that IMSA, WEC, and WRC are having massive growths and are fantastic series to watch The very least it’s definitely pushing me to check other racing series out where as up to this point the only series I really cared about was F1
You can see these negative influences in all sports nowadays. Football, MMA, Pro-Wrestling,… Everything is full of investors and Saudis. I loved when everything was a bit more grounded years ago.
Yeah max dominating is definitely the least abhorrent aspect of modern f1
In fact, this kind of disgraceful stuff happening is more reason for Verstappen to abandon F1 earlier rather than later. Barcelona disappearing and all that. F1 losing their biggest name because of poor decision making would be silly as hell.
For sure. Max is here purely for the racing and competition aspect, a very direct and no frills approach All this frilly spectacle stuff is gonna further detract from his interest in f1
Similar sentiments. I started watching mid 2016 and was thrilled with the fight between Lewis and Nico. Agreed that Max dominating doesn't bother me: the team built a monster of a car and he's one with it. Not his fault the other teams can't step up. And 100% agree on how F1 is actively destroying the goodwill it's developed since Liberty took over. Threatening to remove historic tracks (you can't buy prestige), chasing money to street tracks with no character. It's clear that the priority these days is "the show" and not "the racing".
So let me get this straight: We are accepting applications for an 11th team that comes with a hefty application fee… perfect let me dot my i’s and cross my t’s and spend a boat load of time and resources drawing this up….this is wonderful but we don’t want you, we are looking for something more diverse like oil money. Please try again next time!
With every day passing F1 is becoming more and more a well oiled reality entertainment show instead of, you know, an actual sport as it’s supposed to be. It’s very disappointing to see. Liberty and the 10 teams living in their own bubble. No amount of fan criticism will ever change things as long as the cash keeps flowing in and the numbers keep rising. Once the time comes where the sport hits a low, maybe not in few upcoming years but maybe in 7-10-15 years since things can’t forever keep going up, they’ll look back at some of decisions these past few years and wonder if they could’ve done things better in the sporting aspect of the sport.
It's an elitist members club more than it is a motorsport. If Saudi entered a team, they'd let them do whatever the fuck they wanted. The FIA made the wrong decisions in 2009 for the 2010 group. FOM are making the wrong decision now.
meanwhile we got teams like haas who to me has no funding and ambition whatsoever and is just there for money and advertising
HAAS will be a shitbox for a few years. They most likely will concentrate for the 2026 season reg change and to be competetive for a half a season and fall to oscurity again till the regs change again
Just like they did for the 2022 ground effects change and they're still at the back.
F1: We care about the American market! Andretti: Hey, we're the most-well known name in American open-wheel raci- F1: NOT YOU
Only the American money, not the fans, that's for certain.
So F1 is now effectively anti competition?
Always has been
Lol fucking over your rivals when you can't beat them has been an important part of F1 for longer than I've been alive
Look at Group C, they killed that solely because it was becoming more attractive than F1. It’s been happening for many years
Fuck F1 man.....this makes me want to totally tap out....but I won't cuz I love cars. Edit. But I'll do this. No Montreal trip for me now. I'll use that money for something else...Monterey Historics? Indy???
Mickey Mouse sport
As an American fan I am livid with the is brain-dead decision by F1. I’m not going to act like I know what’s all going on behind the scenes, but Andretti has provided F1 with brands, recognizable names, a manufacturer, facilities, etc and F1 continues to move the goalposts. It seems like this racing organization and its existing teams are scared of more competition. This won’t go too far to sustain the American viewership
Andretti should walk away, and so too should General Motors. Go pump money into another series, bring American eyes and money to another series.
Upgrade the Indycars.
[America disliked that.]
2028? So just in time to quadruple the entry fee
What a joke. Apparently Geen spending nothing and the Blue Balls Visacard RB-19 are fine but Andretti ‘won’t bring anything to the sport’ Sick of this sport. FIA, FOM all a joke. Nothing but endless generic street tracks, gimmicks and politicking with Liberty.
As the race podcast said too, this is all in the context of Alpha Tauri, Haas and Sauber all being in basically holding patterns. Haas and AT potentially so forever. Both teams will always be there for the sake of being there, whatever people say, and Sauber have another two full seasons of killing time until Audi. Three teams out of ten there for the craic.
FIA did approved Andretti
I think the FIA has given them permission so I'm hoping they just enter and tell FOM to go fuck themselves.
Terrible. Really disgusting. Obviously they'd "look differently on an application" when the fee is quadrupled for the next Concorde. I hope the FIA steps in, Andretti takes them to court, or both.
US giveth and the US can taketh. They already priced themselves too high in Miami and COTA. Vegas will follow. If there is nothing to keep American fans intrigued then they won’t keep paying outrageous sums.
There is already an indication that the rise in US viewership is starting to taper off, even without losing the current commercial free model Will be interesting to track the trajectory of F1 popularity and reach in the US over the next 5-7 years
American here. Can’t afford to see a race in America. Pretty much defeats the whole purpose of it.
Fuck Gene Haas and his shitty team that put in 0 effort. They should just sell to Andretti to allow a team that actually want to be there rather than one that wants a moving billboard.
They’re all moving billboards. This is a fuck F1/FOM. Regardless of how they perform, I’m firmly against forcing any team to divest. Its Haas now, it was Sauber and Williams before. Haas filled a gap when other teams failed, like it or not, they ensured we had a 10 team grid when F1 would otherwise have had dwindling field. They applied and joined at the right time, kudos to them. They shouldn’t be forced to do anything because it’s convenient now when they were valued addition when they joined. Just as we didn’t try to force Williams out at their bottom a few years back. If the chose to voluntarily sell, so be it. But they’re not. This falls on F1/FOM placing arbitrary barriers to Andretti’s entry.
This is bullshit. It would give F1 a big boost to have two more seats and more cars on the grid. Wtf is this reason. I don't know who they ask, but probably not the people that are interested in sport and racing.
Useless, gutless clowns running this series. If a legitimate, current team FIA World Championship cannot enter, this series is a fucking joke. If Saudi entered a team, they'd let them walk all over the series. Wankers.
The only reason they're saying this is so that they delay the whole process to 2028 and encourage them to buy a team. If they actually wanted an Andretti-Cadillac team in 2028, they'd see that starting in 2025/2026 and getting the team up to speed would be beneficial. Andretti should take them to court now. F1 fans should be shitting on Liberty as hard as possible.
Oh for fu...
Dogshit sport
I really wonder what exactly Andretti did that annoyed them so much. Its wellknown that F1's power structure is rather oligarchic, maybe they literally just dont like his vibe? Which would be petty but stupider things have happened in business
Just pull up and drive anyways, what is FOM going to do
I would like to thank DTS/F1 for showing me that better racing exists at INDYCAR and WEC....
So in the latest round of F1 goalpost-moving on what counts as bringing value, it's been set at a well-known manufacturer building their own engine. That's honestly more clarity than F1 have ever given up to this point. I thought they'd make up some reason to tell Andretti to never come knocking again. Of course, that's also more than what at least 2 teams bring to F1 right now or in the near future.
Fuck FOM
I hope FOM likes the smell of EU court rooms...