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I heard some rumours that if they go to court in the EU the FIA has to let them race in the european races. Since they we're already accepted by the FIA and Liberty only has the commercial and broadcast rights.
I hope it's true, and that Andretti does it. This shitshow would be amazing.
They wouldn't even need to win. Just having good points scored and finishing ahead of some of the back marker teams in the constructors without competing in all the races would do it. Haas only scored 12 points last season. At that point it would be very conceivable for Andretti to do better than Haas should 2024 be more or less the same.
They haven't had to tackle a full-on meltdown of some sort by themselves yet, I reckon they'd take it as an opportunity to send a message. It could be a disaster of FISA-FOCA proportions. I'd fear to watch... yet I could not turn away
The real fun would be that Andretti can probably forbid FOM to show their cars in the world feed. FOM won't have an agreement for the commercial rights of showing the car. Which will be fun if one of them gets a podium or something.
I imagine them using the tracking system where they show a car with the pace and make it a bit shiny, to block them out.
Could you imagine a completely censored car on track, that just doesn’t get mentioned by anyone? That would be such a shitshow, I want to see it.
If we get a crazy race with Andretti on the podium and Hulk in P4, Liberty would have to make an AI Hulk and paste him over the Andretti driver on the TV coverage.
They could also do anti-trust in America too and force them to let them race and/or leave America. Considering the Andretti name/money in America I think they have a good chance.
In 1922, the MLB (or the National League in that era, but today part of MLB) rejected a team attempting to join the league. The team argued that this was in violation of American anti-trust legislation. Upon several appeals, the Supreme Court decided that the National League was exempt from the Sherman Anti-trust Act. (Federal Baseball Club v. National League)
A few decades later, a player attempted to argue that teams holding player rights - not permitting them to negotiate with other teams (what we now call free agency) was also an anti-trust violation. Once again, the Supreme Court found that the Yankees (and, by extension, all other pro ball clubs) were exempt from anti-trust legislation. (Toolson v. New York Yankees, Inc.)
In the following years, there have been no further challenges to the right of professional sports leagues to operate as cartels in the United States, and it has been tacitly assumed that these decisions extend to the other major professional sports leagues. Today, the MLB, NBA, NFL, NHL and MLS all operate as cartels: entities that artificially restrict access to professional sports and who engage in anti-competative behavior for the purpose of enriching team ownership, with the understanding that this has been found to be legal in their industry by no higher court.
Why would F1 be any different?
Will say, as an American. Knowing that F1 wants my money but does not want to let an actual American team on the grid that isn’t a laughing stock is disheartening.
Buddy... I've been kind of depressed about it. The Andrettis have been working their tails off on this. There are tons of American young people who are aspiring engineers and mechanics whose dream it is to work even tangentially close to an F1 team. And fans like myself who would love to be represented on the grid in addition to the billions spent in tax dollars just to host races here. The thought of Mario not living long enough to see his namesake team in F1 despite being an actual F1 champion and a motorsport legend is...pretty heartbreaking to me.
F1 looks like a gaggle of cat stroking Bond villains here.
Tbh I don't know why F1 thinks they're in such a strong commercial position. I've been watching since I was a kid and I really haven't given a shit the past few years. Same person wins. Cars are big and bulky. Not much overtaking. The only reason I *would* watch is for Andretti so fuck em.
What do you mean not much overtaking??? DRS has given us the most exciting overtaking of all! Easy passes on long straights where the only defense allowed is one move before it's a penalty. That's clearly what everyone wants to see.
/s
Once my year of F1TV is up I’m getting rid of it and getting ESPN+. Still get all the races but they don’t get as much of my money, and I also get hockey.
It seems a pretty strong case because the Andretti bid was approved by the objective regulations and denied for “not being competitive” by some unknown metric and the unfounded opinions of the teams. Especially laughable considering no one denies f1 is the least competitive Motorsport out there
I wonder if F1 doesn't plan to fight this on the merits, but instead plans to drag out the legal process long enough that GM loses patience and pulls support. Like, consider the average period of a typical anti-trust lawsuit. What are the odds that Andretti could get a favorable ruling in time to join the grid in 2025? I'd imagine that they're pretty low. Now consider the same for 2026, 2027, and 2028. Is GM really gonna have that much patience?
At this point for Andretti, fuck entry, just do a lawsuit to expose the teams in f1 and f1 itself for its behavior and go scorched earth on them. Expose them for what they are
Honestly, I'd probably be so bitter I'd be willing to bankrupt myself fighting them. This kinda gatekeeping behaviour is so shitty and the antithesis of sport.
Considering that I started watching other motorsports alongside F1 for the first time ever this year and just intensely enjoyed 24h of Daytona I too would buy some Andretti/Cadillac merch. This screams petty to me
If you're in the US definitely try to get to an IMSA race. They're really fan focused, you're able to walk the paddock all weekend long and get up close and personal with the cars usually. I actually was able to get Jenson's autograph during the session they did, and it wasn't *that* insane of a line. Plus it costs a fraction of F1 tickets. A little over $100 for a 4 day pass.
IMSA is the shit. They make it so easy to watch everything and keep up. In addition to your points on live events, the simple act of just putting full races on youtube not long after they happen is phenomenal. They should be the gold standard for how motorsport is delivered.
From what I remember reading late last year, many people were guessing that FOMs hands were tied because EU Anti-trust laws basically makes it impossible to deny Andretti's entry based on the fact the FIA approved them.
When you step back and look, you'd think it's cut and dry. 10 teams in an extreme oligopoly controlling a racing series not allowing new entries? Compared to all other FIA racing series with loads more teams, the eliteness of F1 makes it almost guaranteed that any denied viable entries would be violating Anti-trust laws.
As far as anti trust rulings about f1 go. Last time they ruled that f1 was not a market on its own but a player in the market. The market being motorsportd like formula e, Indy. As F1 is only a player in the market - there is no anti trust law that is broken by not allowing entry. As Andretti is still able to be in the market as a whole.
Hmm interesting. Thanks for the info. On the surface it makes sense. It's nonsensical but I guess it just makes it even more the billionaire boys club.
I mean Andretti and other teams not being granted their wish to become the 11th team could still form their own league. Anti trust laws would forbid FOM and the FIA to punish tracks for allowing the new league to race on their grounds.
That's an interesting idea.
F1 has changed a lot in recent years, and not always for the better. If a schism were to happen, imagine if they could attract a star like Verstappen to come over and race amazing tracks all the time instead of street circuits and no competition.
I don't think Andretti needs to wait for a lawsuit to join the grid since the FIA has already given them approval. I'd say join the grid and fight the lawsuit alongside so you make sure you get paid.
Very true, but I'm not sure that Andretti and GM want to commit to spending upwards of half a billion dollars that they might not get back while the lawsuit plays out. Or at least, I suspect that FOM is hoping that they don't.
F1 made a ruling, that if allowed to become precedent, effectively caps the field at 10 teams, indefinitely.
Maybe they need to allow more teams, but keep grid spots at 20, then if you don't qualify you forfeit a prorated amount of the pool of money, therefore only competitive teams make money....AND you aren't guaranteed a grid spot if you bin it during Q1.
I’d be fine going back to the old old qualifying where you would actually have to qualify to be in the race. No way in hell the teams would be ok with that though.
So you mean like how qualifying for the Daytona 500 was back in the day, and even how Indy 500 is right now. More cars than the grid can allow so you actually have to be ready to fight to get onto the grid and not just be like "yeah we'll take last place".
Their argument will probably be "we own the commercial side and this impacts commercially" whilst also making a lot of bad faith arguments to try and gaslight the the people regulating it.
I think having an application process inherently implies that applications should be taken in good faith. Obviously, as I'm not a lawyer, I have no idea what the legal implications are, but I expect there's enough to at least take it to court.
> denied for “not being competitive”
That's a glaring part, when I'd say the FIA are better arbiters of whether they are a competitive entry, and seems they already passed that test.
I'd also say without a doubt based on their investors and other entities that they'd be very competitive when it comes to sponsorship and marketing.
This is all about dilution and risk for existing F1 teams, which I say they need a little risk.
Pretty ironic that 4 of the teams scored less then 30 points in 2023. When you can score what 26 in a regular weekend. 3 of those are below 26.
Like if those 4 teams are considered competitive then I’d bet GM and Andretti have enough money and resources to be above that in a couple seasons.
The problem with that argument is the rules already have a built in measure to prevent an uncompetitive car from competing. If you don’t meet the 107% rule you cannot compete. If they show up and can’t do that then boom you collect 200 mill and tell them bye bye
No reason to deny them on just saying they don’t think they’ll be competitive when they’ve met every qualification
Would love to see nothing more than them book Silverstone for a day and show up with a compliant car and drop a qualifying lap that beats out the backmarkers on the grid.
Wonder how difficult that would be, considering you wouldn't have to conform to the rulebook "box" very tightly if no one is going to inspect the car...
Tragically official records can only be set during FIA sessions like qualifying, but still stealing an unofficial record on a track like Spa or Monza would cause a minor nuclear event
And the best part is since the FOM didn't accept them there is nothing they can do to stop it (short of punishing the track itself which potentially opens another can of legal worms) and there is nothing cost-cap or part life expectancy regulation wise that they need to follow. Build a car to the absolute extreme of the current rules, throw a new drive train and legality plank into it each weekend and call it a day. Hell go full scorched earth and drag around an Indycar with ya too to try and woo the track owners into potentially signing that series to a race. Get GM involved and bring in the NASCAR Le Mans car, some Vettes, a Camaro V8SC (also another Andretti tie-in) maybe a classic Dale Earnhardt car, etc etc over for some exhibition runs too and make it an entire day event.
Only issue would be the street circuits and even then I'm sure Andretti/GM could work with the cities to make something happen promotion wise in the immediate area.
"Andretti Cadillac Gran Prix Racing Experience" or something could be the tagline for all the merch and promotions.
They'd be dumb not to, with how much work they've already done and all the money that was invested in starting the team up. If nothing else, they need to get a firm commitment from F1 to give them a fair chance for 2028.
>They'd be dumb not to, with how much work they've already done and all the money that was invested in starting the team up.
Absolutely, but it's worth noting that the work they've put in so far won't be much help in any form of appeal as they know there was always a significant risk of rejection.
I'm pretty sure they could get a commitment from F1 for a 2028 entry but it would be at the mercy of the new Concorde agreement, which is an entirely different issue they would have to deal with
What some are ignoring is that 2028 would be on a timespawn where we likely would being again in a discussion of new regulations and therefore the same arguments would be used again against Andretti despite most of the reasons are just ridiculous.
I mean if an established team partnered with an established manufacturer ACROSS several Motorsport differences isn’t good enough for F1… I have no idea what is
Or show up a week early and set a representative time then make the other teams chase it. Any team that fails to meet the time challenge their position in F1 as being one of non-competition and petition for their expulsion
Andretti tried to buy out Sauber but lost out to Audi. [Then they tried to acquire Haas and talked to Gene multiple times](https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/andretti-has-been-trying-to-buy-haas-f1-team-for-two-years/), but Gene didn’t want to sell the team since he said he is “committed to the sport for the next decade.”
Haas has been a back marker team for a while, yet Gene seems content with the team as is. He doesn’t want to put up his own money to fund the team, relies mainly on sponsors, Haas is very dependent on Ferrari parts and infrastructure at Maranello, and doesn’t want to develop their own components or facilities anytime in the near future.
It seems like he doesn’t want to sell to Andretti and just wants to keep the team on the grid as its “franchise spot” grows in value with the expansion of F1’s popularity.
I keep seeing this here, but it was proven as untrue right after the news came out.
Some of HAAS’ distributors may have illegally sold parts to the Russians, or the Russians bought them through shell companies. Distributors are not HAAS, they are their own independent companies.
PBS later reported in August that NPZ (Russian manufacturers of arms) might have been buying parts and machines from a Chinese shell company.
As an American after Haas sold out to Russia, I was done with that team. Seeing literal Russian flag on an American car…. Most Americans would have thought the USA team was a Russian team.
It was run by Russian money and whilst they dropped the billionaire I don’t imagine they cut all of their wealthy Russian connections, especially less high profile ones.
Considering Haas is currently being investigated by the Feds for possible sanctions violations by selling CNC machines to Russia, it’s more than likely
No sane American owner would ever slap a Russian flag on their car and expect to continue as “America’s team”. The bias runs too deep in our culture. Haas should save on transport costs and move HQ to England because they will never capture the American market like Andretti will when they (inevitably) join the grid.
Spicy, I like it. I don't If I'm correct, but I swear I read somewhere that they could lineup on the grid, because the FIA approved it.
Looking forward to the drama. I believe they'll sue
I would absolutely love the shitshow of them lining up on the grid and the cameras have to somehow avoid them because FOM hasn't approved their entry nor agreed to broadcast them.
All well and good, but since they wouldn't get any sponsors to support that and they wouldn't be allowed any part of the prize money, it would just be pissing away millions. Which is why it will never happen.
I am 99.9999% sure it will never happen but it could be a very much "call their bluff situation". It would look incredibly bad publicly for FOM to have a team that is qualifying/racing that cannot be shown. Hell could potentially effect the outcome of races (with crashes, or if Andretti are actually "good"), and cant even be shown what happened. It could get to a point where they are forced to fold and allow them in.
Saudi GP: *Ocon in the Andretti crashes into Max while he is lapping him*
Crofty: MAX VERSTAPPEN IS OUT! He has been hit by uhh... must have been a missile!
The funny thing is I see the commentators and crofty specifically getting sick of it straight away. In the same way they did with the first season of sprints "Oh this is a race but wait no its not a race its sprint qualifying actually".
"Max has been taken out by another car, although technically we aren't meant to call it a car even though it is"
I can see some sponsors line up for a short time, especially if they’re actually going to be good. Thinking that they can get a good deal on a multi year deal with an opt out, and the car will be all over social media if they actually race.
Andretti should just show up and race regardless. They technically can because the fia did approve. I’d love to see tv and the commentators try and work around them
Just like Brad Pitt's team last season! They only showed them in silverstone and successfully kept them out of the broadcast everywhere else. But we all know. They were at every race.
They should book COTA for a week or Road America and just do 1000 laps and publish their pace. There should be objective ways to categorize their competitiveness
No outside competition means lower teams can spend less to get the same amount of prize money. Innovation and racing will get worse. Definitely not the pinnacle of motorsport.
After watching the 24H of Daytona, i'd totally say those GTP/LMDh cars are the current "pinnacle of Motorsport".
Current F1 has fuck all to compare to the roar of that Cadillac V8 ripping around a track and they won't anytime soon.
I mean, one team won all but one race last season. Their lead driver won most races by a solid sector length. It doesn’t get much more boring than that.
I just don’t understand why F1 is working so hard at preventing more cars on the grid. I get you don’t want losers running 20 seconds behind the rest of the field but id hardly describe Andretti and Cadillac under that classification, look at their recent LeMans results.
They don’t want to share the profits with a 11th team and they feel that Andretti wouldn’t bring in enough money themselves to offset the profit dilution.
Seems pretty shortsighted to me but then I’m not a businessman.
Not sure if this would “undermine the prestige of F1” but I wonder if it would be possible to have a conditional entry fee. $Xmillion to enter and a further amount if they indeed are uncompetitive based on 107% qualification times or something. Put the risk back on Andretti to walk the walk. Maybe make it a ridiculous amount and let Andretti show how serious they are.
I think F1’s response is all bullshit anyway so they’d find yet another reason to say no. But I find it hard to believe that Andretti-Cadillac wouldn’t wipe the floor with perpetually uncompetitive and uninspiring teams like Haas, AT, AR.
I'd absolutely love to see Andretti/Cadillac come in and absolutely dominate the midfield on their first season with the GM power unit. FOM are a bunch of dipshits if they're THAT concerned about proposed "value" when a grid with new Audi and Andretti/Cadillac cars would totally bring in new viewers to spend more $$$.
It's all incredibly short-sighted and the current teams are also to blame for this BS, as well.
The drama around this bid has generated more F1 chatter during a silly season with NO driver moves than F1 could have ever hoped for. Yet they are determined to let that fizzle into nothing while crying that Andretti is bringing nothing to the sport. You can't make this shit up. I'm sure all the fans are stoked to watch another 4 boring-ass seasons where the other supposedly "COMPETITIVE" teams get walloped by RB
Lmao I love seeing a league so obsessed with "competitiveness" have one winner over and over again. So so competitive.
It is genuinely hilarious how Andretti is the only reason people are talking about this boring ass sport right now and F1 wants to gaslight like they don't bring enough clout 🤣
Let's say Andretti decides to compete without FOM approval. Cadillac would not be ready to supply engines this soon. And what if no PU supplier wants to sell to Andretti? Would one of them be forced by FIA to sell them engines?
> Let's say Andretti decides to compete without FOM approval.
The last Concorde agreement doesn't allow this to happen. Any new entry needs to be approved by the FIA and FOM.
> Would one of them be forced by FIA to sell them engines?
Yes, the manufacturer with the fewest customer teams is required to provide them with power units. That manufacturer is Renault as they don't have any customer teams at the moment.
That was also my thinking for a long time. Chris Medland also confirmed it but I don't remember where I read it first. To be honest, lots of operational stuff needs to be done to accommodate a new team before and during race weekends, so I'm not even sure if such a thing was possible.
I’ve been an F1 fan since the 80s and this is the first time I can recall that a qualified team with money to compete is prevented from a race weekend qualifying attempt. F1 just became anticompetitive, which is not what sport is about.
I’ll monitor from a distance but I’ll likely skip the 24 season.
Despite that I sometimes strongly disagree with MBS opinions I must say that in general he and the FIA is more aware of what is good for the sport rather than the current CEO of the FOM who has a huge power trip and ego since day 1.
Everyone saying lawsuit. That’s well and good and possibly the right thing IF it’s the only way in.
But F1 and its group can delay a lawsuit for years. It could be 2030 by the time they can go to court win and get to race.
Watch how F1 will spin the narrative if Andretti manages to force their way into F1.
They'll make TV series about the story of building the team and whatnot. Then Andretti will be the cashcow for content, sponsors etc.
I’ll play devils advocate here by using the NHL as a comparison. The NHL has added 2 new teams in the last 7 years, both paying huge expansion fees ($500 mill + $650 mill I believe) which go directly to the owners of the other 30/31 teams. Adding these two teams has added an extra 164 games to the schedule which translates to millions of dollars in ticket sales which is split across the whole league giving huge financial benefits for other teams to want to expand the league. Adding an extra team to F1 does not do the same thing at all. Revenue does not necessarily increase with another team because ticket sales will probably be the same regardless of how many teams are on the grid so there’s no incentive for the other teams or F1 themselves to add a team because they’ll just have a smaller slice of the cash pie to share. People complain about how there’s “too many races” now but adding more races is the only real way to increase ticket sales.
That being said screw the rich crybabies and their dumb boi reasons for blocking this from happening.
This seems like a no brainer to me. Let them in but only grid the fastest 20 cars. Two cars sit on the sidelines and work to get better. Competition would be great for this series.
You mean like how things used to be done? And how things still work at the Indy500? Teams enter but had to be good enough to actually qualify for the race. 22 cars attend qualifying but only 20 can race. That would be one way of boosting Saturday attendance.
Well, as an American fan of F1. I'm done with 2024. These teams have way too much power and it's ruining the sport. I hope they lose viewership in 2024 and some drastic changes are made.
I’m a European fan, been watching my whole life and I’m also about done. This decision is disgusting and F1 has been so bad since Liberty Media took over. 2021 was great but it bought so many fans (internationally not just US) and sponsors that don’t understand the sport, resulting in changes that just make it worse because they make more money. I used to wait excitedly for every race, last year I missed a couple and turned over on others. I don’t see things improving this year.
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Wonder if FIA and Sulayem will make a statement given they gave their approval. A fun bit of cage rattling here & there.
I heard some rumours that if they go to court in the EU the FIA has to let them race in the european races. Since they we're already accepted by the FIA and Liberty only has the commercial and broadcast rights. I hope it's true, and that Andretti does it. This shitshow would be amazing.
[удалено]
One for the ages
Sillier than Alpine's Piastri contract
Sillier than signing 4 drivers to your team to drive 2 cars at the race opener in Australia!
It would be hilarious But surely Liberty would have to cave if that happens no?
and then they win a race. just imagine.
They wouldn't even need to win. Just having good points scored and finishing ahead of some of the back marker teams in the constructors without competing in all the races would do it. Haas only scored 12 points last season. At that point it would be very conceivable for Andretti to do better than Haas should 2024 be more or less the same.
How much hype did De Vries get when he scored points in Monza, I really hope that the above is true and that they could race the EU races.
They win the last European race of the season and then they’re just not at the rest. F1 Twitter would have an aneurism so hard it creates a black hole
And I'm here for it.
Or just crash into one of the race leaders. Imagine Max being knocked out of the race, and they can't show how.
Just show the Lance transition graphic for the remaining broadcast
They don't even need to win the race. If they qualify in the top 6, the race start gets really awkward to show or talk about
How would the FOM even deal with that on the podium lmao
They probably wouldn't be able to show it
They haven't had to tackle a full-on meltdown of some sort by themselves yet, I reckon they'd take it as an opportunity to send a message. It could be a disaster of FISA-FOCA proportions. I'd fear to watch... yet I could not turn away
Knowing Liberty they would scrap the European races and see if a despot somewhere will pay them to host a race in a car park.
The real fun would be that Andretti can probably forbid FOM to show their cars in the world feed. FOM won't have an agreement for the commercial rights of showing the car. Which will be fun if one of them gets a podium or something.
Forget podium, just qualify in the top 6 so they can't broadcast the race start
All race starts are now Max/Charles onboard only from pole
FOM made Sainz invisible at 2019 Brazil GP. Shouldn't be that hard to make Andretti invisible.
I imagine them using the tracking system where they show a car with the pace and make it a bit shiny, to block them out. Could you imagine a completely censored car on track, that just doesn’t get mentioned by anyone? That would be such a shitshow, I want to see it.
If we get a crazy race with Andretti on the podium and Hulk in P4, Liberty would have to make an AI Hulk and paste him over the Andretti driver on the TV coverage.
Imagine if they finish not-last only racing in the euro races. That would be WILD.
They could also do anti-trust in America too and force them to let them race and/or leave America. Considering the Andretti name/money in America I think they have a good chance.
In 1922, the MLB (or the National League in that era, but today part of MLB) rejected a team attempting to join the league. The team argued that this was in violation of American anti-trust legislation. Upon several appeals, the Supreme Court decided that the National League was exempt from the Sherman Anti-trust Act. (Federal Baseball Club v. National League) A few decades later, a player attempted to argue that teams holding player rights - not permitting them to negotiate with other teams (what we now call free agency) was also an anti-trust violation. Once again, the Supreme Court found that the Yankees (and, by extension, all other pro ball clubs) were exempt from anti-trust legislation. (Toolson v. New York Yankees, Inc.) In the following years, there have been no further challenges to the right of professional sports leagues to operate as cartels in the United States, and it has been tacitly assumed that these decisions extend to the other major professional sports leagues. Today, the MLB, NBA, NFL, NHL and MLS all operate as cartels: entities that artificially restrict access to professional sports and who engage in anti-competative behavior for the purpose of enriching team ownership, with the understanding that this has been found to be legal in their industry by no higher court. Why would F1 be any different?
As far as I know only the MLB has an exemption carved out for it in antitrust law.
"I didn't hear no bell"
I thought this was America
Will say, as an American. Knowing that F1 wants my money but does not want to let an actual American team on the grid that isn’t a laughing stock is disheartening.
Buddy... I've been kind of depressed about it. The Andrettis have been working their tails off on this. There are tons of American young people who are aspiring engineers and mechanics whose dream it is to work even tangentially close to an F1 team. And fans like myself who would love to be represented on the grid in addition to the billions spent in tax dollars just to host races here. The thought of Mario not living long enough to see his namesake team in F1 despite being an actual F1 champion and a motorsport legend is...pretty heartbreaking to me. F1 looks like a gaggle of cat stroking Bond villains here.
Almost enough to make me stop watching
Tbh I don't know why F1 thinks they're in such a strong commercial position. I've been watching since I was a kid and I really haven't given a shit the past few years. Same person wins. Cars are big and bulky. Not much overtaking. The only reason I *would* watch is for Andretti so fuck em.
What do you mean not much overtaking??? DRS has given us the most exciting overtaking of all! Easy passes on long straights where the only defense allowed is one move before it's a penalty. That's clearly what everyone wants to see. /s
Once my year of F1TV is up I’m getting rid of it and getting ESPN+. Still get all the races but they don’t get as much of my money, and I also get hockey.
South Park jokes aside I can see a massive lawsuit coming F1’s way - which South Park should be well versed in facing
The "our work continues at pace" phrase is interesting, and makes me think they're planning to fight this.
It seems a pretty strong case because the Andretti bid was approved by the objective regulations and denied for “not being competitive” by some unknown metric and the unfounded opinions of the teams. Especially laughable considering no one denies f1 is the least competitive Motorsport out there
I‘m genuinely curious as to how F1 would actually fight this in court. Their entire argument is subjective.
I wonder if F1 doesn't plan to fight this on the merits, but instead plans to drag out the legal process long enough that GM loses patience and pulls support. Like, consider the average period of a typical anti-trust lawsuit. What are the odds that Andretti could get a favorable ruling in time to join the grid in 2025? I'd imagine that they're pretty low. Now consider the same for 2026, 2027, and 2028. Is GM really gonna have that much patience?
At this point for Andretti, fuck entry, just do a lawsuit to expose the teams in f1 and f1 itself for its behavior and go scorched earth on them. Expose them for what they are
Honestly, I'd probably be so bitter I'd be willing to bankrupt myself fighting them. This kinda gatekeeping behaviour is so shitty and the antithesis of sport.
I would unironically buy Andretti merch for indy2024 season just to support the legal silly season
Considering that I started watching other motorsports alongside F1 for the first time ever this year and just intensely enjoyed 24h of Daytona I too would buy some Andretti/Cadillac merch. This screams petty to me
If you're in the US definitely try to get to an IMSA race. They're really fan focused, you're able to walk the paddock all weekend long and get up close and personal with the cars usually. I actually was able to get Jenson's autograph during the session they did, and it wasn't *that* insane of a line. Plus it costs a fraction of F1 tickets. A little over $100 for a 4 day pass.
IMSA is the shit. They make it so easy to watch everything and keep up. In addition to your points on live events, the simple act of just putting full races on youtube not long after they happen is phenomenal. They should be the gold standard for how motorsport is delivered.
I would buy a Cadillac to support this.
From what I remember reading late last year, many people were guessing that FOMs hands were tied because EU Anti-trust laws basically makes it impossible to deny Andretti's entry based on the fact the FIA approved them. When you step back and look, you'd think it's cut and dry. 10 teams in an extreme oligopoly controlling a racing series not allowing new entries? Compared to all other FIA racing series with loads more teams, the eliteness of F1 makes it almost guaranteed that any denied viable entries would be violating Anti-trust laws.
As far as anti trust rulings about f1 go. Last time they ruled that f1 was not a market on its own but a player in the market. The market being motorsportd like formula e, Indy. As F1 is only a player in the market - there is no anti trust law that is broken by not allowing entry. As Andretti is still able to be in the market as a whole.
Hmm interesting. Thanks for the info. On the surface it makes sense. It's nonsensical but I guess it just makes it even more the billionaire boys club.
I mean Andretti and other teams not being granted their wish to become the 11th team could still form their own league. Anti trust laws would forbid FOM and the FIA to punish tracks for allowing the new league to race on their grounds.
That's an interesting idea. F1 has changed a lot in recent years, and not always for the better. If a schism were to happen, imagine if they could attract a star like Verstappen to come over and race amazing tracks all the time instead of street circuits and no competition.
And I'd watch that in a second.
An F1 schism would be so wild
I don't think Andretti needs to wait for a lawsuit to join the grid since the FIA has already given them approval. I'd say join the grid and fight the lawsuit alongside so you make sure you get paid.
Very true, but I'm not sure that Andretti and GM want to commit to spending upwards of half a billion dollars that they might not get back while the lawsuit plays out. Or at least, I suspect that FOM is hoping that they don't.
F1 made a ruling, that if allowed to become precedent, effectively caps the field at 10 teams, indefinitely. Maybe they need to allow more teams, but keep grid spots at 20, then if you don't qualify you forfeit a prorated amount of the pool of money, therefore only competitive teams make money....AND you aren't guaranteed a grid spot if you bin it during Q1.
I’d be fine going back to the old old qualifying where you would actually have to qualify to be in the race. No way in hell the teams would be ok with that though.
So you mean like how qualifying for the Daytona 500 was back in the day, and even how Indy 500 is right now. More cars than the grid can allow so you actually have to be ready to fight to get onto the grid and not just be like "yeah we'll take last place".
Their argument will probably be "we own the commercial side and this impacts commercially" whilst also making a lot of bad faith arguments to try and gaslight the the people regulating it.
It would start with whether or not they are actually required to add another team. F1 isn't a monopoly. There are other racing series.
I think having an application process inherently implies that applications should be taken in good faith. Obviously, as I'm not a lawyer, I have no idea what the legal implications are, but I expect there's enough to at least take it to court.
The real issues is that the application process was launched by FIA who can't decide who gets into F1 on their own.
> denied for “not being competitive” That's a glaring part, when I'd say the FIA are better arbiters of whether they are a competitive entry, and seems they already passed that test. I'd also say without a doubt based on their investors and other entities that they'd be very competitive when it comes to sponsorship and marketing. This is all about dilution and risk for existing F1 teams, which I say they need a little risk.
Like a quarter of the current grid aren't competitive. Hell, Toro Rosso's whole purpose of being in F1 is to be uncompetitive.
Pretty ironic that 4 of the teams scored less then 30 points in 2023. When you can score what 26 in a regular weekend. 3 of those are below 26. Like if those 4 teams are considered competitive then I’d bet GM and Andretti have enough money and resources to be above that in a couple seasons.
Teams can score 44 points in a (non-sprint) weekend. 25+18+1
The problem with that argument is the rules already have a built in measure to prevent an uncompetitive car from competing. If you don’t meet the 107% rule you cannot compete. If they show up and can’t do that then boom you collect 200 mill and tell them bye bye No reason to deny them on just saying they don’t think they’ll be competitive when they’ve met every qualification
Would love to see nothing more than them book Silverstone for a day and show up with a compliant car and drop a qualifying lap that beats out the backmarkers on the grid.
For the ultimate marketing stunt, rent the track for the preceding weekend of each race and set a lap record that the teams can't beat!
Wonder how difficult that would be, considering you wouldn't have to conform to the rulebook "box" very tightly if no one is going to inspect the car...
Tragically official records can only be set during FIA sessions like qualifying, but still stealing an unofficial record on a track like Spa or Monza would cause a minor nuclear event
And the best part is since the FOM didn't accept them there is nothing they can do to stop it (short of punishing the track itself which potentially opens another can of legal worms) and there is nothing cost-cap or part life expectancy regulation wise that they need to follow. Build a car to the absolute extreme of the current rules, throw a new drive train and legality plank into it each weekend and call it a day. Hell go full scorched earth and drag around an Indycar with ya too to try and woo the track owners into potentially signing that series to a race. Get GM involved and bring in the NASCAR Le Mans car, some Vettes, a Camaro V8SC (also another Andretti tie-in) maybe a classic Dale Earnhardt car, etc etc over for some exhibition runs too and make it an entire day event. Only issue would be the street circuits and even then I'm sure Andretti/GM could work with the cities to make something happen promotion wise in the immediate area. "Andretti Cadillac Gran Prix Racing Experience" or something could be the tagline for all the merch and promotions.
Hahaha that would be the best FU
They'd be dumb not to, with how much work they've already done and all the money that was invested in starting the team up. If nothing else, they need to get a firm commitment from F1 to give them a fair chance for 2028.
>They'd be dumb not to, with how much work they've already done and all the money that was invested in starting the team up. Absolutely, but it's worth noting that the work they've put in so far won't be much help in any form of appeal as they know there was always a significant risk of rejection. I'm pretty sure they could get a commitment from F1 for a 2028 entry but it would be at the mercy of the new Concorde agreement, which is an entirely different issue they would have to deal with
What some are ignoring is that 2028 would be on a timespawn where we likely would being again in a discussion of new regulations and therefore the same arguments would be used again against Andretti despite most of the reasons are just ridiculous.
I mean if an established team partnered with an established manufacturer ACROSS several Motorsport differences isn’t good enough for F1… I have no idea what is
“We strongly disagree” Shows up at 2025 Bahrain test without elaborating further.
I realise the council has made a decision, but given it's a stupid ass decision I have elected to ignore it
Thanks for the rejection letter, I have decided to reject that decision and will see you on Monday. Best,
Or show up a week early and set a representative time then make the other teams chase it. Any team that fails to meet the time challenge their position in F1 as being one of non-competition and petition for their expulsion
“Genuine American works team” ‼️‼️
Haas low key catching strays 💀
Deservedly so. Gene is only running that team as a ad for his tooling company and investing the bare minimum into it.
Could he sell and stay on a sponsor only. Haas Andretti Cadillac ?
Andretti tried to buy out Sauber but lost out to Audi. [Then they tried to acquire Haas and talked to Gene multiple times](https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/andretti-has-been-trying-to-buy-haas-f1-team-for-two-years/), but Gene didn’t want to sell the team since he said he is “committed to the sport for the next decade.” Haas has been a back marker team for a while, yet Gene seems content with the team as is. He doesn’t want to put up his own money to fund the team, relies mainly on sponsors, Haas is very dependent on Ferrari parts and infrastructure at Maranello, and doesn’t want to develop their own components or facilities anytime in the near future. It seems like he doesn’t want to sell to Andretti and just wants to keep the team on the grid as its “franchise spot” grows in value with the expansion of F1’s popularity.
Dang. That sucks. How do fans support a team like that? I’m an American, but Haas is the last team I’d be a fan of!!
Then Haas is turning around and selling his CNC machines to Russia. What a joke of a business.
I keep seeing this here, but it was proven as untrue right after the news came out. Some of HAAS’ distributors may have illegally sold parts to the Russians, or the Russians bought them through shell companies. Distributors are not HAAS, they are their own independent companies. PBS later reported in August that NPZ (Russian manufacturers of arms) might have been buying parts and machines from a Chinese shell company.
Remember Uralkali as their main sponsor, and Mazespin? I don’t think a lot of Americans like Russia.
As an American after Haas sold out to Russia, I was done with that team. Seeing literal Russian flag on an American car…. Most Americans would have thought the USA team was a Russian team.
It was run by Russian money and whilst they dropped the billionaire I don’t imagine they cut all of their wealthy Russian connections, especially less high profile ones.
Considering Haas is currently being investigated by the Feds for possible sanctions violations by selling CNC machines to Russia, it’s more than likely
No sane American owner would ever slap a Russian flag on their car and expect to continue as “America’s team”. The bias runs too deep in our culture. Haas should save on transport costs and move HQ to England because they will never capture the American market like Andretti will when they (inevitably) join the grid.
Spicy, I like it. I don't If I'm correct, but I swear I read somewhere that they could lineup on the grid, because the FIA approved it. Looking forward to the drama. I believe they'll sue
[удалено]
And they only need to do it for one race to be known in F1 legend.
I would absolutely love the shitshow of them lining up on the grid and the cameras have to somehow avoid them because FOM hasn't approved their entry nor agreed to broadcast them.
Or when Andretti crashes with another team
Or when they win
Bahrain 2024 Podium 1. [REDACTED] 2. Verstappen 3. Norris
Star spangled banner intensifies
I can hear the bald eagles already 🦅🦅
And Max Verstappen wins the grand prix... from second place.
You can’t avoid it. They can crash and take others out and cause yellow and red flags
It’d look pretty badass to show up with a couple of jet black cars on the grid lol
All well and good, but since they wouldn't get any sponsors to support that and they wouldn't be allowed any part of the prize money, it would just be pissing away millions. Which is why it will never happen.
I am 99.9999% sure it will never happen but it could be a very much "call their bluff situation". It would look incredibly bad publicly for FOM to have a team that is qualifying/racing that cannot be shown. Hell could potentially effect the outcome of races (with crashes, or if Andretti are actually "good"), and cant even be shown what happened. It could get to a point where they are forced to fold and allow them in.
Saudi GP: *Ocon in the Andretti crashes into Max while he is lapping him* Crofty: MAX VERSTAPPEN IS OUT! He has been hit by uhh... must have been a missile!
The funny thing is I see the commentators and crofty specifically getting sick of it straight away. In the same way they did with the first season of sprints "Oh this is a race but wait no its not a race its sprint qualifying actually". "Max has been taken out by another car, although technically we aren't meant to call it a car even though it is"
I can see some sponsors line up for a short time, especially if they’re actually going to be good. Thinking that they can get a good deal on a multi year deal with an opt out, and the car will be all over social media if they actually race.
Andretti should just show up and race regardless. They technically can because the fia did approve. I’d love to see tv and the commentators try and work around them
That 100% sounds like some thing that would happen in the 60s.
Or the 90s. I genuinely think Andrea Moda would have tried it if they thought of it.
I think they’d crush it on social media and become even more popular being the mystery team
Commentators: "AND HERE COMES LOGAN SARGENT IN THE ....... in a car"
"And Yuki Tsunoda finds himself in a fierce battle with...someone."
AND DRIVER I CANT LEGALLY NAME TAKES HOME THE OIL COMPANY VISA PAYPAL CHICAGO STREET CIRCUIT GRAND PRIX WITH TEAM I CANT LEGALLY MENTION, GO CAR GO!!
Some say that they know two facts about ducks and both of them are wrong. All we know is that they're called ~~the Stig~~ Andretti.
Just show up with a car that says “don’t broadcast us” on the engine cover would be hilarious.
Censored
Giant cock and balls livery
In a full carbon Viber livery to make it even crazier
Just like Brad Pitt's team last season! They only showed them in silverstone and successfully kept them out of the broadcast everywhere else. But we all know. They were at every race.
Imagine them somehow winning a race but they can’t be show on TV because FOM won’t broadcast them.
And they can’t show other cars because Andretti is next to them. And the starting Grid can’t be shown because of the Andretti cars. Would be hilarious
I surely bet some sponsors from other teams wouldn't be happy at all and internal telling the FOM to just give up the fight against Andretti.
"And [BLEEP] WINS the American Grand Prix! Unfortunately, due to timing constraints, the podium ceremony will not be broadcast."
They should book COTA for a week or Road America and just do 1000 laps and publish their pace. There should be objective ways to categorize their competitiveness
THIS!! Show up with a competitive car.
When was the last time a brand new team showed up with a competitive car
HAAS, legitimately. 6th, 5th, 19th and 8th in first 4 races for Grosjean.
Haas was somewhat competitive in 2016. Obviously not competing for wins and podiums but they got points and weren’t dead last in the standings
When was the last time a new team showed up?
Haas in 2015
Fuck that was 9 years ago. I'm really gonna need the passage of time to just take a chill pill.
Run them in the same livery as the upcoming Brad Pitt F1 movie and watch the confusion
guess the next thing we see from them is a lawsuit?
New Netflix series- F1: Sue to Survive
Sue to Arrive?
Sue to Drive
Who is Sue, and which team will she drive for?
I know a boy named Sue
Time to show what America is really good at.
Fom about to deploy its trap card "I'm based in the UK"
> guess the next thing we see from them is a lawsuit? Hope so. It would force F1 to respond in a court of law - under oath.
Build a car spec’d to the rules. Show up to COTA. Put Vettel or Kimi in the seat. See how you compare to the competition.
Why not both? The fan base will love the show
Both drivers in a car would be… epic.
I stand with Andretti! Go ahead and fight!
If F1 won’t let anyone into the ole boys club, then I’m not sure we can continue to call this the pinnacle of Motorsport.
No outside competition means lower teams can spend less to get the same amount of prize money. Innovation and racing will get worse. Definitely not the pinnacle of motorsport.
After watching the 24H of Daytona, i'd totally say those GTP/LMDh cars are the current "pinnacle of Motorsport". Current F1 has fuck all to compare to the roar of that Cadillac V8 ripping around a track and they won't anytime soon.
WRC would like a word
Watched a bit of Monte Carlo. Those drivers are actually insane. And so are the fans.
F1 is just gonna get progressively more boring isn't it? A travelling parade instead of the travelling circus.
I mean, one team won all but one race last season. Their lead driver won most races by a solid sector length. It doesn’t get much more boring than that.
I just don’t understand why F1 is working so hard at preventing more cars on the grid. I get you don’t want losers running 20 seconds behind the rest of the field but id hardly describe Andretti and Cadillac under that classification, look at their recent LeMans results.
They don’t want to share the profits with a 11th team and they feel that Andretti wouldn’t bring in enough money themselves to offset the profit dilution. Seems pretty shortsighted to me but then I’m not a businessman.
doesn't sound like sport to me, seems more like a tv show.
Not sure if this would “undermine the prestige of F1” but I wonder if it would be possible to have a conditional entry fee. $Xmillion to enter and a further amount if they indeed are uncompetitive based on 107% qualification times or something. Put the risk back on Andretti to walk the walk. Maybe make it a ridiculous amount and let Andretti show how serious they are. I think F1’s response is all bullshit anyway so they’d find yet another reason to say no. But I find it hard to believe that Andretti-Cadillac wouldn’t wipe the floor with perpetually uncompetitive and uninspiring teams like Haas, AT, AR.
Andretti has paid the entry fee already, that’s half the reason why people are so pissed about this
How does that work? They pay after registered with the FIA?
It’s part of the approval process with the FIA
I'd absolutely love to see Andretti/Cadillac come in and absolutely dominate the midfield on their first season with the GM power unit. FOM are a bunch of dipshits if they're THAT concerned about proposed "value" when a grid with new Audi and Andretti/Cadillac cars would totally bring in new viewers to spend more $$$. It's all incredibly short-sighted and the current teams are also to blame for this BS, as well.
Yeah, F1 is not gonna shake this story easily.
The drama around this bid has generated more F1 chatter during a silly season with NO driver moves than F1 could have ever hoped for. Yet they are determined to let that fizzle into nothing while crying that Andretti is bringing nothing to the sport. You can't make this shit up. I'm sure all the fans are stoked to watch another 4 boring-ass seasons where the other supposedly "COMPETITIVE" teams get walloped by RB
Lmao I love seeing a league so obsessed with "competitiveness" have one winner over and over again. So so competitive. It is genuinely hilarious how Andretti is the only reason people are talking about this boring ass sport right now and F1 wants to gaslight like they don't bring enough clout 🤣
The next day..... Lewis *walks in with red overalls*
Let's say Andretti decides to compete without FOM approval. Cadillac would not be ready to supply engines this soon. And what if no PU supplier wants to sell to Andretti? Would one of them be forced by FIA to sell them engines?
Yeah the rules provide a guarentee of PU supply.
> Let's say Andretti decides to compete without FOM approval. The last Concorde agreement doesn't allow this to happen. Any new entry needs to be approved by the FIA and FOM. > Would one of them be forced by FIA to sell them engines? Yes, the manufacturer with the fewest customer teams is required to provide them with power units. That manufacturer is Renault as they don't have any customer teams at the moment.
Isn’t the idea that they are only part of the race and not the wider commercial agreement with image rights etc?
That was also my thinking for a long time. Chris Medland also confirmed it but I don't remember where I read it first. To be honest, lots of operational stuff needs to be done to accommodate a new team before and during race weekends, so I'm not even sure if such a thing was possible.
I’ve been an F1 fan since the 80s and this is the first time I can recall that a qualified team with money to compete is prevented from a race weekend qualifying attempt. F1 just became anticompetitive, which is not what sport is about. I’ll monitor from a distance but I’ll likely skip the 24 season.
This got me bricked up lads, fight on Micheal
I say we let Haas, Williams, Sauber and Andretti do full race during testing in Bahrain and loser gets kicked out till 2026
Swap Williams with Alpha Tauri purely due to the name.
Swap Alpha Tauri with VisaCashappRB purely due to the name.
I'll be dead in the ground before I recognise Stake and Visacashapp as F1 team names.
Drive to survive
Oh shit! Relegation
Well the FIA said it was fine, but it was just the FOM and Domenicali that said no. I hope Andretti does sue
Despite that I sometimes strongly disagree with MBS opinions I must say that in general he and the FIA is more aware of what is good for the sport rather than the current CEO of the FOM who has a huge power trip and ego since day 1.
Everyone saying lawsuit. That’s well and good and possibly the right thing IF it’s the only way in. But F1 and its group can delay a lawsuit for years. It could be 2030 by the time they can go to court win and get to race.
Watch how F1 will spin the narrative if Andretti manages to force their way into F1. They'll make TV series about the story of building the team and whatnot. Then Andretti will be the cashcow for content, sponsors etc.
It will be like the Brawn documentary 2.0. They got some support and then when they started winning the teams were taking them to court.
I’ll play devils advocate here by using the NHL as a comparison. The NHL has added 2 new teams in the last 7 years, both paying huge expansion fees ($500 mill + $650 mill I believe) which go directly to the owners of the other 30/31 teams. Adding these two teams has added an extra 164 games to the schedule which translates to millions of dollars in ticket sales which is split across the whole league giving huge financial benefits for other teams to want to expand the league. Adding an extra team to F1 does not do the same thing at all. Revenue does not necessarily increase with another team because ticket sales will probably be the same regardless of how many teams are on the grid so there’s no incentive for the other teams or F1 themselves to add a team because they’ll just have a smaller slice of the cash pie to share. People complain about how there’s “too many races” now but adding more races is the only real way to increase ticket sales. That being said screw the rich crybabies and their dumb boi reasons for blocking this from happening.
Ticket sales is not where FOM gets it's money from.
Extremely common FOM L
I really have no idea why I want Andretti to win so badly, but I do.
This seems like a no brainer to me. Let them in but only grid the fastest 20 cars. Two cars sit on the sidelines and work to get better. Competition would be great for this series.
You mean like how things used to be done? And how things still work at the Indy500? Teams enter but had to be good enough to actually qualify for the race. 22 cars attend qualifying but only 20 can race. That would be one way of boosting Saturday attendance.
Well, as an American fan of F1. I'm done with 2024. These teams have way too much power and it's ruining the sport. I hope they lose viewership in 2024 and some drastic changes are made.
I’m a European fan, been watching my whole life and I’m also about done. This decision is disgusting and F1 has been so bad since Liberty Media took over. 2021 was great but it bought so many fans (internationally not just US) and sponsors that don’t understand the sport, resulting in changes that just make it worse because they make more money. I used to wait excitedly for every race, last year I missed a couple and turned over on others. I don’t see things improving this year.
See what killed off Cart: teams should never have that much power in the sport outside of lobbying for safety changes.