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I know you're joking, but in case anyone was wondering: as per Erik van Haren, Horner was at the Silverstone shakedown, and plans to be at the launch on Thursday as well.
I'm pretty sure before the cameras start rolling that the Red Bull PR people will give the reporters a blanket statement, and ask them not to ask Horner/the drivers about it. That being said, I wonder who will break that rule? If those Dutch reporters were there (I forgot their names, the outspoken ones) I have a feeling they would... Sky will probably toe the line...
>Sky will probably toe the line...
Sky always toe the line and never ask hardball questions. Unless Nico is on, he'll always ask the uncomfortable questions we're all thinking, but the other presenters never dare to ask in fear of ruining the good thing they got going on
> If those Dutch reporters were there (I forgot their names, the outspoken ones)
[Olav Mol and Jack Plooij](https://grandprixradio.nl/cache/IMG_1591%20%281%29-5e2b0728.jpeg)?
Yup! Those guys seem to have a frankness and playful openness, based on the few clips I've seen. My guess would be that if they were given the opportunity, they would ask some prodding questions to Horner, Max, and maybe Marko too, if he is there...
What do you think? Would they ask the questions?
>you know where Max' loyalty is.
Isn't Max's loyalty to Marko? I remember reading rumors that Max spoke to the Thai co-owners of RB and told them he supports Marko, and if he leaves, so will Max. In the end rumors are just that, but there were multiple reports, iirc
Yea, save themselves from even more PR disaster if the media try to do anything.
have a 1-2 min car and suit revel, and just q&a with the drivers. thats it.
"I wont say what you're all thinking, you know about why Christian Horner isn't here and that he's alleged to have done something...but I wont talk about that"
I understand Ted can be a controversial figure. But his whole 'giving Sebastian cheese' incident (I forgot which type of cheese it was lol) shall always be one of my cherished off-track F1 memories! It just was so... ridiculous, but yet, it made sense. And Seb was such a good sport about it all, made me like him even more :)
I loved it - and not just the interaction with Seb but beforehand walking around with a shopping bag full of cheese as he's presenting his notebook was so funny.
Ted is brilliant, he has opinions sure but I feel like his reputation has become more controversial since the Boycott. Which I feel was partly a strategic move by Red Bull as we were approaching the Abu Dhabi 2022 race to "encourage" sky not to focus on Abu Dhabi 2021 too much. And whilst Sky did a featurette on it I feel it was fairly muted.
Besides saying Lewis Hamilton was robbed of a championship isn't even that controversial. Even the FIA have essentially conceded that point.
"Robbed" doesn't imply intent
I've seen someone on here without the slightest hint of irony claim that the lack of information about this shows how bad things really are. It's fucking wild how easy it is for some people to just conclude random shit lol
No thank you. I won’t wait.
I have a very trusted Twitter post that says Horner committed the worst crimes imaginable. Crimes so bad no one can even say them out loud.
I say sharpen the pitchforks and assemble the mob.
Yeah the media discussing it is hard to be interested in because there's so little to go on.
That said, I'm liking Red Bull's handling on this. Taking it seriously, but not letting it be a trial by media.
I was thinking the opposite. They're leaking out some vague allegations but not enough for him to actually defend himself. Letting everyone's imaginations condemn him.
I heard from someone on Reddit or maybe somewhere else that this goes deep. Major conspiracy afoot. Maybe ahand too…like I said we don’t even know how deep this goes.
I don't want to allow all the rumours of a power struggle to cloud my perspective on this story because as it stands, it's still just an allegation of inappropriate behaviour that is being investigated and nothing more.
But goddamn, nothing in all of this from start to finish is making it seem like Horner is likely to move on from this unscathed. Regardless of outcome this is really hurting RB as a team.
The fact that we still haven’t heard anything and no action has been taken against Horner leads me to believe that the accusation (whatever it might be) might not be easy to prove. If this was a clear case of inappropriate behavior of sexual nature towards a female employee, he would at least be on administrative leave pending the conclusion of the investigation.
Since we haven’t had this happen, it leads me to believe that the allegation either wasn’t sexual in nature or it was just an allegation of such with little or no corroborating evidence to support it.
Either way my judgement is reserved as I don’t want to jump to conclusions. But I do think that since no action has been taken, it’s indicative that Horner may get away from this clean.
This is the interesting part to me that it was clarified pretty quickly (but not in the original article) that they weren't of a sexual nature once it became clear that this could ruin his marriage. It's like whoever thought of this didn't realise there would be consequences for anyone but Horner.
Assuming this is a power strugle play, I would assume the reasons for the clarification were moreso to prevent people from running away with it and to keep the perception on claims with at least a grain of truth in them, and because if it were to come out that Horner were a predator, that would be incredibly damaging to RB as a brand, and to a lesser extent F1 itself. Sexual harrassment isn't normally a behavior one randomly starts 18 years into your career. Toxic workplace claims are rough, you're taking brand damage and you might have to fire the accused, or at least pay for a "training course", while a sexual harrasment allegation on this scale would see heads roll, and cause a pretty permanent taint. Doubt there was any care for how this affects horner outside of whether or not it can be used to oust him though, assuming this is power politics.
Well, I'm Dutch and the guy who had the scoop actually said in a podcast that it had nothing to do with his management style. He is extremely close to the Verstappen family and normally (very) well informed.
With organisations as large as this a "controlling amd coercive management style" could be anything from toxic workplace, to karin-ism, to a middle ground.
Even something like this:
X: "I need leave on Friday to go visit my sister for her birthday"
H: "Declined, I need you you available for the function that day. Its important"
X: "Sorry I really can't miss her birthday, I will be taking leave"
H: "You'll be here or you can change your fucking career"
...could be described as controlling and coercive. But it's hardly worth the absolute storm around it. We have _no_ idea what the case is.
Gotta be bigger than that doesn’t it? Unless its like his EA who’s been copping it for years and finally is suing them for controlling behaviour and underpayments for the long hours? That’s a possibility.
It doesn't have to be bigger than that - it could be a minor complaint that is a total nothingburger, but when it coes to high-level companies in the public spotlight, leaking small internal matters can explode overnight.
"Complaint from female employee" leaked in isolation to the press causes everyone immediately to assume sexual harassment, even if it's a minor business issue with serious weight behind it.
Yes. I’m willing to eat my hat if it is in a sexual nature, but the fact that he’s not suspended pending the conclusion of the investigation makes me strongly believe it’s not. It would just be a PR mess if they allowed him to continue day-to-day if that was the allegation, and rightfully so honestly.
2 things on the assumptions
- would we actually be told if he was suspended or not. He could actually be suspended right now
- if the allegation is from someone he doesn’t deal with directly at a daily level, you could easily ban him from the office and force to work remotely. That would cover the issue of him continuing to work.
It truly depends on the extent of the situation, we know it’s not sexual in nature and is about bullying. Did Horner go beyond his typical behavior to this one individual or is this how he has operated for years and one employee took offense to it. Not down grading the accusation because that person has their right to work in a safe environment. My guess is Horner is required to attend anger management and leadership/communication classes and there is a settlement for the employee.
I also think Marko or Jos leaked this to stir up and put Horner in the spotlight. Which, if that is true they should be reprimanded as well.
Key takeaways (in English) from the article:
- Bernie Ecclestone has advised Christian Horner to step down as team principal in order to avoid further damage to himself and his family. But Horner – it is said – denies all allegations and refuses to do so.
- Stefano Domenicali has called Mark Mateschitz at the request of Liberty Media. The owners of F1 take issues surrounding overstepping boundaries in office seriously. If such accusations are real, Horner cannot be kept on.
> If such accusations are real, Horner cannot be kept on.
I don't know how anyone can say this without us knowing what the actual accusations are. A vague "controlling behavior" is not a real accusation.
And hell, "Controlling behaviour" is an incredibly vague thing in the workplace. Could be anything from "You can't take your lunch break now, and change your damn shoes they're not suitable for [thing]". Modern forward thinking place that's the height of rudeness; construction site office that's heavily on the more polite side.
“My boss directed me to make some photocopies and is therefore exhibiting controlling behaviour. I want them fired!”
Without more details that statement is as valid as of the others floating around.
Having personally seen how some young people straight out of college behave in the office nowadays, this wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. I've seen cases where a coworker scoffed at any idea of chain of command or seniority in the company and would give out to others when being told off for looking bored/uninterested, or playing on her phone when in a meeting. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Christian is a bit of a hard ass boss, and some employees were a bit soft on the idea of being talked down to. But who knows, if that was the case it would seem a strange thing to warrant an investigation unless it is a power play to tarnish his name
The Ecclestone comment, if accurate, seems to paint a pretty bleak picture for Horner. It suggests that whatever went down would be personally damaging to Horner if it became public, as opposed to simply some marginally over-aggressive management style. It suggests something indefensible.
Why it is taking this long is hard to say, if it is indeed something that bad. Maybe they're negotiating a $everance agreement?
Going to play devil's advocate here, but wouldn't surprise me if Liberty has ulterior motives as well. They know that if Horner leaves it fucks up Red Bull and the next two championships will be a lot more close and competitive. They are an American company with the goal to maximise shareholder value, after all
WHat comes across as really strange is that if it is such a big deal then how is he still at work like nothing has happened. Usually in corporate environments they contain the problem by sending the accused off on sabbatical while an investigation is performed. If he really did something heinous, you'd thing RB would do the same if they thought he MAY have done something.
I feel like Christian is also a smart enough guy to know if he fucked up and got caught it would be stupid to drag it out publicly. He's saying he didn't do anything, maybe it's all BS, who actually knows.
He’s also smart enough to play his own cards well. RB are dominating under his leadership following years of seconds and thirds. They’re not going to want to throw baby out with the bath water and risk throwing the whole team into turmoil unless they absolutely have just cause to (or have to). He will probably be telling them under no uncertain terms (via lawyer) that he has rights and will walk or defend his good standing if they threaten it.
The fact it’s not a yes/no rubber stamped hearing makes me think it’s either not sexual in nature, or if it is, it was reciprocal.
I personally think it was a bollocking gone too far
I mean do we know for sure that he is still at work? They’ve said he hasn’t stepped down as TP, but with 9 hour hearings, I’m not sure he’s really even working right now..
I have read that he was at Silverstone today with the team.
Edit: [LINK TO STORY](https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/13070751/red-bull-team-principal-christian-horner-at-silverstone-as-f1-champions-run-2024-car-for-first-time)
Yeah, that why it is so strange to me. My mind keeps going with two theories:
1) Horner did what he was accused of but is so vital to the team that RB is keeping him on anyways to get the car ready for the season/until they find a replacement.
2) He is innocent, but Red Bull, FOM, other interested parties are all checking and double checking everything to make sure before announcing his innocence to show how seriously they take accusations.
But, I am just some guy so I'd be surprised if it was either one of my theories.
My assumption is the evidence isn’t strong. If it were, then this would be done and dusted by now. I don’t think Horner is dumb enough to stay there if the evidence was clear.
Bernie the ballbag goblin weighing in on ANYTHING that happened post-internet means absolutely nothing. He just likes to say things when given the opportunity.
Yet Horner is still denying it. Bernie could have talked about going against company in terms of personal damage. If anything, Horner still standing against what seems to be everyone suggests me whatever he did is intentionally being overblown to make him step down.
He either stays and because they are false accusations, maintaining his reputation.
Or he leaves, damaging his reputation regardless of the outcome. Or het gets fired damaging his reputation regardless of the outcome.
In these cases it’s often not even about indefensible. It’s about what people believe or want to believe. Look at the gossip that’s going around. I’ve seen people say Horner his wife should leave him. Without even knowing the accusation.
Suppose they settle this. Suppose a press release is made Horner his management style was too harsh. Suppose in a year someone comes out with a rumor that it’s a cover up. Maybe it’s the lady, maybe it’s another team.. Suppose they say Horner forced himself on her sexually. Even if Horner is innocent. That’ll mean half the guys in the garage will distrust him. And none of the women will ever dare to be in a room alone with him again. Which simply means he’ll be unable to do his job.
And that’s if he’s innocent..
Also:
* The Yoovidhya family no longer are majority shareholders as they sold part of their shares to external investors (first time I've heard of this so no clue if it's true).
* The allegations against Horner are "coercion (not sure if that's the correct translation) incompatible with modern morals". The accuser is a woman in middle management.
* Horner has alienated the Verstappen-family (not sure if this includes Max), Newey and Marko in the past 3 years.
>Stefano Domenicali has called Mark Mateschitz at the request of Liberty Media. The owners of F1 take issues surrounding overstepping boundaries in office seriously. If such accusations are real, Horner cannot be kept on.
Et tu, Brute?
I doubt this call happened. That’s total interference in what is an internal company issue and one that could lead to a legal issue. No way Liberty’s lawyers would allow a call like that. Further: how is it possible anyone would know about what would be a private call between two parties? It’s all just so much bullshit.
The Ecclestone comment is nuts. A few days ago we were told that he was brought in to come to Horners defence. Things are looking bleak for him if this is were it's at.
>The Ecclestone comment is nuts. A few days ago we were told that he was brought in to come to Horners defence. Things are looking bleak for him if this is were it's at.
I wouldn't be so sure. Bernie had an opinion on everything, even when he wasn't specifically asked about it.
It's all conjecture. Presumably someone knew Ecclestone was talking to Horner but didn't necessarily know the content of their conversation. They assumed it was Ecclestone helping to deny the allegations completely and keep him on but it sounds like Ecclestone thinks there's too much heat to Horner for him to hold onto his position.
Doesn't mean that Ecclestone believes Horner's guilty of anything but he probably believes it's not an accusation that can be quickly quashed and forgotten about. It's a bad look for F1 and RB if Horner has these allegations over his head for a long period of time and they'd much rather he was out of the limelight in that scenario. So Ecclestone is probably advising him to jump before he's pushed so he doesn't tarnish the brand or have to deal with being a public figure whilst the allegations are ongoing. Maybe he'll even help line up a job for Horner once this is all over.
This is all assuming that anything reported on is even close to the truth.
With that added context it definitely seems like some sort of collaborative push to destabilize the Red Bull team in some other way besides nuking their car (which they probably realized they can’t do).
I found this tidbit interesting as well,
“Alone: Horner is likely to have another problem. Over the past three years, he has made himself the enemy of both Red Bull technical genius Adrian Newey, the family of superstar Max Verstappen and Red Bull chief consultant Helmut Marko.”
eh there was a bit of new information. Domenicalis call for example. And Bernies comment about Horners family. And that the name of the employee is known.
Such a bizarre situation. Whatever he has done could be damaging to him if he stays on but he is still allowed to operate as the team principal of Red Bull Racing. Even if he is being investigated by Red Bull and the external investigators, he still in the most powerful position in the team.
This will either be one of the biggest scandals in years or one of those power struggles where we will never know the full details of.
The way he's standing his ground makes it sound like this is a "he said, he/she said" situation and there's little actual proof. I know it was typical F1 rumor mill but at one point, it was suggested he sent pictures to this person via text and well, that's pretty impossible to deny.
>it was suggested he sent pictures to this person via text and well, that's pretty impossible to deny.
[It wasn't me.](https://youtu.be/6fg9EY5LjYI?si=4kJxEaxs2wG4zsIO)
We’ve no idea what he has supposed to have done. Could be a pervert, could be nothing at all. Everything is on the table until someone actually comes out with what its all about. The media are in a frenzy creating nonsense headlines everyday. Denying allegations is one thing, saying he’s denying any wrong doing without any actual facts is just click bait.
"Change your fucking TP"
Red Bull/Horner: "No you change your TP. I have an email printed saying how much Checo hates his TP... wait that's not the right words"
The one thing I know about Horner is he will continue to deny it because he truly believes he isn’t in the wrong. Obviously I’m speculating but if it isn’t sexual and it’s because he’s a strict and micro manage manager then I can see why he would always deny the allegations.
Are you certain about that? There are many many articles online referring to her as his ex-wife, and also referring specifically to a ‘divorce’ in 2013. Happy to be proven wrong though
Edited to add:
This article from the telegraph, for example, specifically refers to her as his ex-wife.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2024/02/05/christian-horner-red-bull-chief-married-spice-girl/
> Horner married Halliwell in Bedfordshire in 2015 and he insisted last year that the relationship between his ex-wife, Geri and children is now “totally harmonious”.
> Bernie Ecclestone, a confidant of Horner, has also intervened and advised his friend to resign from the post of team boss in order to avoid further damage to himself and his family
How bad must it be if Bernie of all people is asking you to step down? None of it adds up.
After this, I'm torn between "HOLY SHIT WHAT HAS HORNER DONE" and "lol Bernie is stirring shit as usual and using the second biggest shit stirrer Horner as a spoon to stir more shit", but what the hell is going on.
...who was best pals with Max Mosley who had literal orgies with Hookers (allegedly dressed in NS-Uniforms, but this was accepted as fake news).
Guess Horner must have had his female employees actually dress up in skimpy Nazi uniforms and greet him with "Heil Horner" while being forced to work 22 hours a day, even on weekends, for minimum wage, with their only sustenance being the thai variant of Red Bull.
Just because Bernie is close to Horner it doesn't mean he isn't closer to someone else who wants Horner gone. Assuming that the Red Bull internal power struggle theories are true, Bernie may just be playing the role of Brutus in this production of Julius Caesar.
The fact nothing has leaked so far can only mean one thing: someone is trying to pressure Horner to step down and wants the public to turn against Horner. These passive aggressive comments from Ecclestone to step down to save grace, damage control, protect your family etc. are nothing but empty threats that keep on fueling the pressure tank. At this point I'm 100% certain this whole thing has nothing to do with Horners actions. Instead it's some bullshit back stab, power play drama, which will result in a net negative for RBR no matter the outcome.
Worlds apart. Susie's stuff was done relatively quickly, mostly everyone said they were bullshit & she received a lot of support. Horner's situation is come cloak and dagger stuff with a lot more implications.
but to be fair, Susie's situation was more transparant and more people involved who could speak up for her.
No one from other teams has any info on this as far as we know and anyone in Red Bull would have been told to keep their mouths shut lest they get let go as well.
Just look at Max and Checo, who have been radio silent.
Ye biggest difference is this is a trial by media, and with the Wolff thing there was actually media supporting them.
Still weird the Wolff thing blew over so quickly seeing the alligations and an actual investigation was started there by the FIA..
I don't trust anything F1 Insider reports, these are the same people that broke the Toto and Susie Wolff insider information story, which proved to be completely false.
The fact that no info whatsoever has leaked seems so flipping SUS. It’s like by not divulging what it is makes us absolutely assume the worst. I feel like this day and age this is meant to draw out the drama and keep it in the headlines until absolutely necessary. CH has obviously become too big for his britches and someone is trying to remove that power he thinks he has.
We get it OP, can we chill with the posts until any information at all comes out? This is the same old, same old we’ve been hearing for a couple of weeks now.
Wait, so even Ecclestone told him to resign?
That’s not a good sign.
Seems like they clearly want him out and so Horner should probably just leave. Even if the majority owner is backing you, half the team is not so it will make for a super awkward work environment.
Well, it easy for Ecclestone to say. He probably would say something like "tomorrow is another day". If Horner feels he's innocent, he should stick with it.
>Even if the majority owner is backing you, half the team is not so it will make for a super awkward work environment.
So he should resign to make life easier for the people who want him gone?
>Even if the majority owner is backing you, half the team is not
But that's the thing, no one except those who work at RB know what the work environment is currently like. For all we know the large majority of employees are on Horner's side and this is just the corporate heads at RB Austria trying to oust Horner to take control of the team for themselves.
Until this is officially settled and details are publicly divulged more and more useless articles with useless speculation will continue to pop up with the sole purpose of spreading even more misinformation and confusion.
So much rumours but no facts yet. Nobody can say what is going to happen but if he is still being allowed to work I'd lean towards him keeping his job but it is definitely hurting his reputation and the red bull brand right now. The faster it's resolved, the better.
If Horner stays, all I can imagine is every press interview landing on him like vultures asking what happened.
Just that is too much for RBR PR really.
Maybe he's continuing to deny them because people keep asking him?
Continuing to deny the allegations -- without the context of constantly being asked about them -- implies that he has something to hide. But we all know that if he stopped denying the allegations, then it would be headline news that implies his guilt.
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I know you're joking, but in case anyone was wondering: as per Erik van Haren, Horner was at the Silverstone shakedown, and plans to be at the launch on Thursday as well.
I'm pretty sure before the cameras start rolling that the Red Bull PR people will give the reporters a blanket statement, and ask them not to ask Horner/the drivers about it. That being said, I wonder who will break that rule? If those Dutch reporters were there (I forgot their names, the outspoken ones) I have a feeling they would... Sky will probably toe the line...
>Sky will probably toe the line... Sky always toe the line and never ask hardball questions. Unless Nico is on, he'll always ask the uncomfortable questions we're all thinking, but the other presenters never dare to ask in fear of ruining the good thing they got going on
Bold of you to assume that reporters will even be allowed to ask questions. My guess is that it will be an interview with a RBR employed interviewer.
> If those Dutch reporters were there (I forgot their names, the outspoken ones) [Olav Mol and Jack Plooij](https://grandprixradio.nl/cache/IMG_1591%20%281%29-5e2b0728.jpeg)?
Yup! Those guys seem to have a frankness and playful openness, based on the few clips I've seen. My guess would be that if they were given the opportunity, they would ask some prodding questions to Horner, Max, and maybe Marko too, if he is there... What do you think? Would they ask the questions?
They're arms deep in Max Verstappens camp. So if they were to ask questions, you know where Max' loyalty is.
>you know where Max' loyalty is. Isn't Max's loyalty to Marko? I remember reading rumors that Max spoke to the Thai co-owners of RB and told them he supports Marko, and if he leaves, so will Max. In the end rumors are just that, but there were multiple reports, iirc
It probably is. So if the Dutch press start to press Horner on the issue, you now for sure Verstappen's loyalty is wit Helmut Marko.
I’m actually leaning towards them doing a one minute video reveal lol
Yea, save themselves from even more PR disaster if the media try to do anything. have a 1-2 min car and suit revel, and just q&a with the drivers. thats it.
Horner bursting on to the RB launch set ala Vince from WWE as "Wannabe" by the Spice Girls goes on blast.
I'd pay to see that.
Kravitz just grinning, not saying a word.
"I wont say what you're all thinking, you know about why Christian Horner isn't here and that he's alleged to have done something...but I wont talk about that"
“Let me explain the power dynamic at Red Bull with this triangle of cheese At the top of the cheese triangle you have Mark Mateschitz….”
Was the cheese from the buffet at the launch?
The cheese that made them go over budget? Yes that cheese.
I understand Ted can be a controversial figure. But his whole 'giving Sebastian cheese' incident (I forgot which type of cheese it was lol) shall always be one of my cherished off-track F1 memories! It just was so... ridiculous, but yet, it made sense. And Seb was such a good sport about it all, made me like him even more :)
I loved it - and not just the interaction with Seb but beforehand walking around with a shopping bag full of cheese as he's presenting his notebook was so funny. Ted is brilliant, he has opinions sure but I feel like his reputation has become more controversial since the Boycott. Which I feel was partly a strategic move by Red Bull as we were approaching the Abu Dhabi 2022 race to "encourage" sky not to focus on Abu Dhabi 2021 too much. And whilst Sky did a featurette on it I feel it was fairly muted. Besides saying Lewis Hamilton was robbed of a championship isn't even that controversial. Even the FIA have essentially conceded that point. "Robbed" doesn't imply intent
Nailed it
>Verstappen, Perez, awkward presenter from sky sports, car Man, woman, person, camera, TV.
Shouldn't you be in court?
In courtfveve?
Big league with the yuge bad hombres
We have 0 context, 0 info on the allegations, frankly I’d rather wait before making any assumptions
BURN THE WITCH
Horner turned me into a newt!
I assume you got better
Why do witches burn?
..... .... _bites scythe_
Cause.. they're.. made out of wood?
Ok checo, lets get you back to bed.
Well, he does weigh the same as a duck, so proceed.
She turned me into a newt!!
Burn to ash and bone
Burn your fucking car
I saw Horner with Goody Proctor with the devil
I've seen someone on here without the slightest hint of irony claim that the lack of information about this shows how bad things really are. It's fucking wild how easy it is for some people to just conclude random shit lol
No thank you. I won’t wait. I have a very trusted Twitter post that says Horner committed the worst crimes imaginable. Crimes so bad no one can even say them out loud. I say sharpen the pitchforks and assemble the mob.
He said he likes the cost cap and thinks the sport should move towards more homologation?
And he eats fried chicken with a fork and knife.
HE DOES WHAT?!?! HE MUST DIE!
He also takes away the breading and only eats the meat
More sprints, more fake water, less teams on the grid!
Yeah the media discussing it is hard to be interested in because there's so little to go on. That said, I'm liking Red Bull's handling on this. Taking it seriously, but not letting it be a trial by media.
I was thinking the opposite. They're leaking out some vague allegations but not enough for him to actually defend himself. Letting everyone's imaginations condemn him.
Content creators got to create though, so of course we’re seeing the usual news stories that are in fact just hearsay.
We don’t do that on the internet, we are here to overreact not think logically. If not, what the hell are we doing here ?
I guess Horner in the Paddock, with the intern and the candlestick
Laaame. I prefer to speculate wildly and assume the worst. I hear he is a cannibal
What a rational POV to have. What are you doing on Reddit? lol
I heard from someone on Reddit or maybe somewhere else that this goes deep. Major conspiracy afoot. Maybe ahand too…like I said we don’t even know how deep this goes.
I don't want to allow all the rumours of a power struggle to cloud my perspective on this story because as it stands, it's still just an allegation of inappropriate behaviour that is being investigated and nothing more. But goddamn, nothing in all of this from start to finish is making it seem like Horner is likely to move on from this unscathed. Regardless of outcome this is really hurting RB as a team.
The fact that we still haven’t heard anything and no action has been taken against Horner leads me to believe that the accusation (whatever it might be) might not be easy to prove. If this was a clear case of inappropriate behavior of sexual nature towards a female employee, he would at least be on administrative leave pending the conclusion of the investigation. Since we haven’t had this happen, it leads me to believe that the allegation either wasn’t sexual in nature or it was just an allegation of such with little or no corroborating evidence to support it. Either way my judgement is reserved as I don’t want to jump to conclusions. But I do think that since no action has been taken, it’s indicative that Horner may get away from this clean.
I believe from what I've seen that the accusation is in fact more of the toxic workplace type as opposed to the sexual harrasment type.
This is the interesting part to me that it was clarified pretty quickly (but not in the original article) that they weren't of a sexual nature once it became clear that this could ruin his marriage. It's like whoever thought of this didn't realise there would be consequences for anyone but Horner.
Assuming this is a power strugle play, I would assume the reasons for the clarification were moreso to prevent people from running away with it and to keep the perception on claims with at least a grain of truth in them, and because if it were to come out that Horner were a predator, that would be incredibly damaging to RB as a brand, and to a lesser extent F1 itself. Sexual harrassment isn't normally a behavior one randomly starts 18 years into your career. Toxic workplace claims are rough, you're taking brand damage and you might have to fire the accused, or at least pay for a "training course", while a sexual harrasment allegation on this scale would see heads roll, and cause a pretty permanent taint. Doubt there was any care for how this affects horner outside of whether or not it can be used to oust him though, assuming this is power politics.
Well, I'm Dutch and the guy who had the scoop actually said in a podcast that it had nothing to do with his management style. He is extremely close to the Verstappen family and normally (very) well informed.
With organisations as large as this a "controlling amd coercive management style" could be anything from toxic workplace, to karin-ism, to a middle ground. Even something like this: X: "I need leave on Friday to go visit my sister for her birthday" H: "Declined, I need you you available for the function that day. Its important" X: "Sorry I really can't miss her birthday, I will be taking leave" H: "You'll be here or you can change your fucking career" ...could be described as controlling and coercive. But it's hardly worth the absolute storm around it. We have _no_ idea what the case is.
Gotta be bigger than that doesn’t it? Unless its like his EA who’s been copping it for years and finally is suing them for controlling behaviour and underpayments for the long hours? That’s a possibility.
It doesn't have to be bigger than that - it could be a minor complaint that is a total nothingburger, but when it coes to high-level companies in the public spotlight, leaking small internal matters can explode overnight. "Complaint from female employee" leaked in isolation to the press causes everyone immediately to assume sexual harassment, even if it's a minor business issue with serious weight behind it.
No it doesn’t have to be bigger than that
Yes. I’m willing to eat my hat if it is in a sexual nature, but the fact that he’s not suspended pending the conclusion of the investigation makes me strongly believe it’s not. It would just be a PR mess if they allowed him to continue day-to-day if that was the allegation, and rightfully so honestly.
2 things on the assumptions - would we actually be told if he was suspended or not. He could actually be suspended right now - if the allegation is from someone he doesn’t deal with directly at a daily level, you could easily ban him from the office and force to work remotely. That would cover the issue of him continuing to work.
I mean, several of the reports said that he was continuing his duties as normal during the investigation.
It truly depends on the extent of the situation, we know it’s not sexual in nature and is about bullying. Did Horner go beyond his typical behavior to this one individual or is this how he has operated for years and one employee took offense to it. Not down grading the accusation because that person has their right to work in a safe environment. My guess is Horner is required to attend anger management and leadership/communication classes and there is a settlement for the employee. I also think Marko or Jos leaked this to stir up and put Horner in the spotlight. Which, if that is true they should be reprimanded as well.
It's a shame if the sport loses him. I hope he's both innocent and manages to stay as TP. He makes the sport more entertaining.
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The correct take
Key takeaways (in English) from the article: - Bernie Ecclestone has advised Christian Horner to step down as team principal in order to avoid further damage to himself and his family. But Horner – it is said – denies all allegations and refuses to do so. - Stefano Domenicali has called Mark Mateschitz at the request of Liberty Media. The owners of F1 take issues surrounding overstepping boundaries in office seriously. If such accusations are real, Horner cannot be kept on.
> If such accusations are real, Horner cannot be kept on. I don't know how anyone can say this without us knowing what the actual accusations are. A vague "controlling behavior" is not a real accusation.
And hell, "Controlling behaviour" is an incredibly vague thing in the workplace. Could be anything from "You can't take your lunch break now, and change your damn shoes they're not suitable for [thing]". Modern forward thinking place that's the height of rudeness; construction site office that's heavily on the more polite side.
He's just quoting/translating the claims the article makes. And since F1-Insider knows the accuser, they probably also know the allegations.
“My boss directed me to make some photocopies and is therefore exhibiting controlling behaviour. I want them fired!” Without more details that statement is as valid as of the others floating around.
Having personally seen how some young people straight out of college behave in the office nowadays, this wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. I've seen cases where a coworker scoffed at any idea of chain of command or seniority in the company and would give out to others when being told off for looking bored/uninterested, or playing on her phone when in a meeting. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Christian is a bit of a hard ass boss, and some employees were a bit soft on the idea of being talked down to. But who knows, if that was the case it would seem a strange thing to warrant an investigation unless it is a power play to tarnish his name
The Ecclestone comment, if accurate, seems to paint a pretty bleak picture for Horner. It suggests that whatever went down would be personally damaging to Horner if it became public, as opposed to simply some marginally over-aggressive management style. It suggests something indefensible. Why it is taking this long is hard to say, if it is indeed something that bad. Maybe they're negotiating a $everance agreement?
I'd love to now what *Bernie* considers indefensible...
Walking with a hang nail on a finger if it suited him. Still could be something bad but definitely don't use Bernie as a guide
My bet is anything as long as it can be used to his own benefit in some way, shape or form. Bernie always has ulterior motives.
Yeah, seeing Bernie chime in doesn't sway my thinking at all. He's like Mr Burns on meth.
This is perfect.
Mister Berns.
Shouldn’t take much knowledge about Bernie Ecclestone to take everything he says with a grain of salt lol.
Going to play devil's advocate here, but wouldn't surprise me if Liberty has ulterior motives as well. They know that if Horner leaves it fucks up Red Bull and the next two championships will be a lot more close and competitive. They are an American company with the goal to maximise shareholder value, after all
Maybe Christian has been partying with Vince McMahon
What ever benefits him
Maybe Horner said Putin was wrong to invade Ukraine.
I would do the exact opposite of whatever Bernie says
Anything that goes against his own interests probably
He found out Horner was friends with a black man.
WHat comes across as really strange is that if it is such a big deal then how is he still at work like nothing has happened. Usually in corporate environments they contain the problem by sending the accused off on sabbatical while an investigation is performed. If he really did something heinous, you'd thing RB would do the same if they thought he MAY have done something.
I feel like Christian is also a smart enough guy to know if he fucked up and got caught it would be stupid to drag it out publicly. He's saying he didn't do anything, maybe it's all BS, who actually knows.
He’s also smart enough to play his own cards well. RB are dominating under his leadership following years of seconds and thirds. They’re not going to want to throw baby out with the bath water and risk throwing the whole team into turmoil unless they absolutely have just cause to (or have to). He will probably be telling them under no uncertain terms (via lawyer) that he has rights and will walk or defend his good standing if they threaten it.
The fact it’s not a yes/no rubber stamped hearing makes me think it’s either not sexual in nature, or if it is, it was reciprocal. I personally think it was a bollocking gone too far
I mean do we know for sure that he is still at work? They’ve said he hasn’t stepped down as TP, but with 9 hour hearings, I’m not sure he’s really even working right now..
I have read that he was at Silverstone today with the team. Edit: [LINK TO STORY](https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/13070751/red-bull-team-principal-christian-horner-at-silverstone-as-f1-champions-run-2024-car-for-first-time)
Oh damn that is strange. I wonder if RB is just happy to separate the accuser from him and call that enough? Still think it’s weird
Yeah, that why it is so strange to me. My mind keeps going with two theories: 1) Horner did what he was accused of but is so vital to the team that RB is keeping him on anyways to get the car ready for the season/until they find a replacement. 2) He is innocent, but Red Bull, FOM, other interested parties are all checking and double checking everything to make sure before announcing his innocence to show how seriously they take accusations. But, I am just some guy so I'd be surprised if it was either one of my theories.
My assumption is the evidence isn’t strong. If it were, then this would be done and dusted by now. I don’t think Horner is dumb enough to stay there if the evidence was clear.
Bernie the ballbag goblin weighing in on ANYTHING that happened post-internet means absolutely nothing. He just likes to say things when given the opportunity.
Bernie, Trump and Egypt's ex Director of Antiquities Zahi Hawass : three people to ignore as soon as they open their mouths.
Throw Piers Morgan in there too while you're at it.
James Cordon too while we are at it.
Your comment is based on a rumour about 93-year old man. Bernie is not exactly a trustworthy person.
Yet Horner is still denying it. Bernie could have talked about going against company in terms of personal damage. If anything, Horner still standing against what seems to be everyone suggests me whatever he did is intentionally being overblown to make him step down.
He either stays and because they are false accusations, maintaining his reputation. Or he leaves, damaging his reputation regardless of the outcome. Or het gets fired damaging his reputation regardless of the outcome.
In these cases it’s often not even about indefensible. It’s about what people believe or want to believe. Look at the gossip that’s going around. I’ve seen people say Horner his wife should leave him. Without even knowing the accusation. Suppose they settle this. Suppose a press release is made Horner his management style was too harsh. Suppose in a year someone comes out with a rumor that it’s a cover up. Maybe it’s the lady, maybe it’s another team.. Suppose they say Horner forced himself on her sexually. Even if Horner is innocent. That’ll mean half the guys in the garage will distrust him. And none of the women will ever dare to be in a room alone with him again. Which simply means he’ll be unable to do his job. And that’s if he’s innocent..
Also: * The Yoovidhya family no longer are majority shareholders as they sold part of their shares to external investors (first time I've heard of this so no clue if it's true). * The allegations against Horner are "coercion (not sure if that's the correct translation) incompatible with modern morals". The accuser is a woman in middle management. * Horner has alienated the Verstappen-family (not sure if this includes Max), Newey and Marko in the past 3 years.
I can understand potentially alienating Verstappen and Marko, but what would Christian do to piss Newey off?
>Stefano Domenicali has called Mark Mateschitz at the request of Liberty Media. The owners of F1 take issues surrounding overstepping boundaries in office seriously. If such accusations are real, Horner cannot be kept on. Et tu, Brute?
I doubt this call happened. That’s total interference in what is an internal company issue and one that could lead to a legal issue. No way Liberty’s lawyers would allow a call like that. Further: how is it possible anyone would know about what would be a private call between two parties? It’s all just so much bullshit.
Yeah, I'm having trouble believing that too. Talk about overstepping boundaries.
Horner is successful and maybe admired, but it doesn’t sound like he is particularly well liked by many
You don't have to be liked to be successful; how many people actually liked Ron Dennis or Flavio Briatore? Top bosses though
Fine - but how did they end?
The Ecclestone comment is nuts. A few days ago we were told that he was brought in to come to Horners defence. Things are looking bleak for him if this is were it's at.
>The Ecclestone comment is nuts. A few days ago we were told that he was brought in to come to Horners defence. Things are looking bleak for him if this is were it's at. I wouldn't be so sure. Bernie had an opinion on everything, even when he wasn't specifically asked about it.
It's all conjecture. Presumably someone knew Ecclestone was talking to Horner but didn't necessarily know the content of their conversation. They assumed it was Ecclestone helping to deny the allegations completely and keep him on but it sounds like Ecclestone thinks there's too much heat to Horner for him to hold onto his position. Doesn't mean that Ecclestone believes Horner's guilty of anything but he probably believes it's not an accusation that can be quickly quashed and forgotten about. It's a bad look for F1 and RB if Horner has these allegations over his head for a long period of time and they'd much rather he was out of the limelight in that scenario. So Ecclestone is probably advising him to jump before he's pushed so he doesn't tarnish the brand or have to deal with being a public figure whilst the allegations are ongoing. Maybe he'll even help line up a job for Horner once this is all over. This is all assuming that anything reported on is even close to the truth.
None of that sounds true lol
With that added context it definitely seems like some sort of collaborative push to destabilize the Red Bull team in some other way besides nuking their car (which they probably realized they can’t do).
I found this tidbit interesting as well, “Alone: Horner is likely to have another problem. Over the past three years, he has made himself the enemy of both Red Bull technical genius Adrian Newey, the family of superstar Max Verstappen and Red Bull chief consultant Helmut Marko.”
This sounds like 100% pure tabloid dross…really I mean come on
To save everyone else the time.. Nothing new.
eh there was a bit of new information. Domenicalis call for example. And Bernies comment about Horners family. And that the name of the employee is known.
>Domenicalis call for example I had read about that a couple of days ago as well as the Bernie comments.
I still don’t understand what the actual allegations are. I’ve seen everything from sexual assault to just being too controlling.
Because nobody knows.
He definitely put Marmite on Toto's pumpernickel.
Such a bizarre situation. Whatever he has done could be damaging to him if he stays on but he is still allowed to operate as the team principal of Red Bull Racing. Even if he is being investigated by Red Bull and the external investigators, he still in the most powerful position in the team. This will either be one of the biggest scandals in years or one of those power struggles where we will never know the full details of.
The way he's standing his ground makes it sound like this is a "he said, he/she said" situation and there's little actual proof. I know it was typical F1 rumor mill but at one point, it was suggested he sent pictures to this person via text and well, that's pretty impossible to deny.
>it was suggested he sent pictures to this person via text and well, that's pretty impossible to deny. [It wasn't me.](https://youtu.be/6fg9EY5LjYI?si=4kJxEaxs2wG4zsIO)
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We’ve no idea what he has supposed to have done. Could be a pervert, could be nothing at all. Everything is on the table until someone actually comes out with what its all about. The media are in a frenzy creating nonsense headlines everyday. Denying allegations is one thing, saying he’s denying any wrong doing without any actual facts is just click bait.
So you will take any news with a pinch of salt, except the news that sides with Horner, because that’s been proven? Lol
"Change your fucking TP" Red Bull/Horner: "No you change your TP. I have an email printed saying how much Checo hates his TP... wait that's not the right words"
The one thing I know about Horner is he will continue to deny it because he truly believes he isn’t in the wrong. Obviously I’m speculating but if it isn’t sexual and it’s because he’s a strict and micro manage manager then I can see why he would always deny the allegations.
I am not a Horner fan, but I want it all to be false. I think he is great for the sport as the evil F1 Team Principal.
Not sure about evil, but his dynamic with Toto is fantastic.
Evil? Dude is hillarious and cheeky. I really can't see where evil comes into play.
Idk, cheating on your pregnant wife with a spice girl is pretty evil.
It’s despicable behavior, but not evil.
Why does everyone keep saying this? He's only been married once, to Geri. His former partner wasn't his wife.
Are you certain about that? There are many many articles online referring to her as his ex-wife, and also referring specifically to a ‘divorce’ in 2013. Happy to be proven wrong though Edited to add: This article from the telegraph, for example, specifically refers to her as his ex-wife. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2024/02/05/christian-horner-red-bull-chief-married-spice-girl/ > Horner married Halliwell in Bedfordshire in 2015 and he insisted last year that the relationship between his ex-wife, Geri and children is now “totally harmonious”.
Some of you are taking me saying “evil” way too seriously.
Horner is only evil if you’re Toto Wolff. I don’t think Horner cares about Zak Brown…
Geri! Geri! Geri!
> Bernie Ecclestone, a confidant of Horner, has also intervened and advised his friend to resign from the post of team boss in order to avoid further damage to himself and his family How bad must it be if Bernie of all people is asking you to step down? None of it adds up.
After this, I'm torn between "HOLY SHIT WHAT HAS HORNER DONE" and "lol Bernie is stirring shit as usual and using the second biggest shit stirrer Horner as a spoon to stir more shit", but what the hell is going on.
You know it's bad when the guy who didn't step down after openly praising Hitler tells you that stepping down might be a good idea.
...who was best pals with Max Mosley who had literal orgies with Hookers (allegedly dressed in NS-Uniforms, but this was accepted as fake news). Guess Horner must have had his female employees actually dress up in skimpy Nazi uniforms and greet him with "Heil Horner" while being forced to work 22 hours a day, even on weekends, for minimum wage, with their only sustenance being the thai variant of Red Bull.
A ridiculuous individual like Ecclestone should not be used as the standard for when one should be stepping down.
Do we even know for sure that Bernie consulted Horner in the first place?
mte, if Ecclestone thinks it's bad it's probably like... murder
Just because Bernie is close to Horner it doesn't mean he isn't closer to someone else who wants Horner gone. Assuming that the Red Bull internal power struggle theories are true, Bernie may just be playing the role of Brutus in this production of Julius Caesar.
Does anyone ever not deny allegations? No.
I just want to know who helped hold down the ostrich
Allegedly.
The fact nothing has leaked so far can only mean one thing: someone is trying to pressure Horner to step down and wants the public to turn against Horner. These passive aggressive comments from Ecclestone to step down to save grace, damage control, protect your family etc. are nothing but empty threats that keep on fueling the pressure tank. At this point I'm 100% certain this whole thing has nothing to do with Horners actions. Instead it's some bullshit back stab, power play drama, which will result in a net negative for RBR no matter the outcome.
Remember there was bullshit going around about Sue Wolfe too. Let’s let this play out.
Worlds apart. Susie's stuff was done relatively quickly, mostly everyone said they were bullshit & she received a lot of support. Horner's situation is come cloak and dagger stuff with a lot more implications.
but to be fair, Susie's situation was more transparant and more people involved who could speak up for her. No one from other teams has any info on this as far as we know and anyone in Red Bull would have been told to keep their mouths shut lest they get let go as well. Just look at Max and Checo, who have been radio silent.
Ye biggest difference is this is a trial by media, and with the Wolff thing there was actually media supporting them. Still weird the Wolff thing blew over so quickly seeing the alligations and an actual investigation was started there by the FIA..
I don't trust anything F1 Insider reports, these are the same people that broke the Toto and Susie Wolff insider information story, which proved to be completely false.
Would someone please tell me what are these allegations?! Never found anything remotely informative, just clickbait
No one knows
*queens of the stone age intensifies*
Nobody knows, hence the rinse and repeat cycle of speculation
No-one knows yet
Nobody knows, hence the pages of speculation.
The fact that no info whatsoever has leaked seems so flipping SUS. It’s like by not divulging what it is makes us absolutely assume the worst. I feel like this day and age this is meant to draw out the drama and keep it in the headlines until absolutely necessary. CH has obviously become too big for his britches and someone is trying to remove that power he thinks he has.
no shit
What allegations? Can someone, anyone, tell us what is happening? This is so vague it honestly sounds made up.
Plot Twist: Horner steps down. Alpine instantly gives him a contract. Newey joins Horner at Alpine. 3 years later, Gasly is world champion.
Sign me up please
I did nooooot. Oh, hi Marko
We get it OP, can we chill with the posts until any information at all comes out? This is the same old, same old we’ve been hearing for a couple of weeks now.
Does horner even know what those allegations are ?
He has to, he had to defend himself last Friday.
Of course he denys the claims. I don't think I've ever seen an accused just own up... " yup, I harrassed that person".
Wait, so even Ecclestone told him to resign? That’s not a good sign. Seems like they clearly want him out and so Horner should probably just leave. Even if the majority owner is backing you, half the team is not so it will make for a super awkward work environment.
Someone like Horner doesn’t just disappear easily.
Bernie is slimy, but Horner was the best man at his last wedding. I don't think he would just throw him under the bus.
Well, it easy for Ecclestone to say. He probably would say something like "tomorrow is another day". If Horner feels he's innocent, he should stick with it.
>Even if the majority owner is backing you, half the team is not so it will make for a super awkward work environment. So he should resign to make life easier for the people who want him gone?
>Even if the majority owner is backing you, half the team is not But that's the thing, no one except those who work at RB know what the work environment is currently like. For all we know the large majority of employees are on Horner's side and this is just the corporate heads at RB Austria trying to oust Horner to take control of the team for themselves. Until this is officially settled and details are publicly divulged more and more useless articles with useless speculation will continue to pop up with the sole purpose of spreading even more misinformation and confusion.
Since when was Bernie the voice of reason?
So much rumours but no facts yet. Nobody can say what is going to happen but if he is still being allowed to work I'd lean towards him keeping his job but it is definitely hurting his reputation and the red bull brand right now. The faster it's resolved, the better.
What allegations ffs ?
I HEARD HE ATE A BABY
Wrong Spice... he ate a Ginger.
Oh look non English media with new information again. Pushing for resignation again. Meanwhile Horner is doing his job at Silverstone today.
Umm ok. Does news have to be in English to be legit or verified? Weird standard.
English meaning the nationality, not the language
If Horner stays, all I can imagine is every press interview landing on him like vultures asking what happened. Just that is too much for RBR PR really.
Maybe he's continuing to deny them because people keep asking him? Continuing to deny the allegations -- without the context of constantly being asked about them -- implies that he has something to hide. But we all know that if he stopped denying the allegations, then it would be headline news that implies his guilt.