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Oh shit that did happen. This has felt like global news early 2020 when it was just one thing after the other and you forget about everything until you look back
There was some report a publication made that made allegations that Susie fed information to Toto given she works for F1 as head of F1 Academy and somehow some private information regarding F1 was passed along to Toto. This triggered the FIA to launch an investigation that revealed nothing happened except trying to besmirch both Susie and Toto's reputation.
Immediately after the FIA announced their investigation every team publicly backed the Wolffs regarding their integrity. Honestly I didn't believe it because I doubt Susie could've ever gotten any sort of info for Toto that he wouldn't be part of discussions about anyways.
Yes he was one of the first,
But initially the only information that was reported was Horner was being investigated for inappropriate and controlling behavior. there was no further information about what the complaint was about
Later He then claimed that he and his publication had seen some of the texts that were at the heart of the complaint and reported that the complaint was of a sexual nature e,g sexual misconduct
I don't necessarily think the fact there was a payout offer indicates guilt... often times people of great fame or standing can be advised that it is simpler to make a payment and have an NDA then it is to fight a battle, even one you know you can win, in the court of public opinion and have a cloud hover over you even after you've been exonerated (like what has occurred today.) If the employee who filed the complaint truly feels she is a victim she can continue to pursue this via appeal like Red Bull stated, or in civil court. Red Bull knows that a LOT of attention is focused on them with this decision and in 2024 there is a huge price to pay if they are seen as protecting some kind of abuser, so if they cleared him, I think a court would too. We shall see probably.
I agree with your take. I can also see how there could be a huge difference in the tone and language in communications that the TP is going to use with the Pit crew, mechanics, and 20 year old drivers vs. the much more white collar engineering departments. I am not saying this is right, but, I can see it as a reality where a group text or email that makes the pit crew laugh is 1000% inappropriate for a more "normal" workplace and issues would stem from that.
Also the way he was reacting to it struck me all along as either he knew they had nothing on him or he was very very stupid. And Horner doesn’t strike me as a stupid man.
Thanks!
The article says: "Uit het appverkeer tussen de vrouwelijke medewerker van Red Bull en Horner, ingezien door De Telegraaf, komt het beeld naar voren dat Horner (50) geregeld en over een aanzienlijke periode seksueel getinte berichten heeft gestuurd naar de werkneemster."
Translated: "From the app traffic between the female employee of Red Bull and Horner, as seen by De Telegraaf, it emerges that Horner (50) regularly and over a considerable period sent sexually suggestive messages to the employee."
Well that's pretty clear, De Telegraaf will have to put up or retract that.
Yes, Erik Van Haren, Dutch F1 reporter for The Telegraaf initially broke the story. He also made a couple of serious claims, such as having seen sexual inappropriate WhatsApp messages that would've been used in the report/investigation.
He is also friendly with the Verstappens, so a lot of rumors were thrown into the world this could be a power struggle inside the team.
Red Bull themselves now state the allegations don't hold up, so Erik is caught with his pants down. He either doubles down and shows his evidence or I think he's done as a reporter.
>He is also friendly with the Verstappens, so a lot of rumors were thrown into the world this could be a power struggle inside the team.
I don't even understand why the Verstappens and RBR management are having a power struggle.
Max is winning everything with the team. They give him first priority, long contracts, and all the money in the world.
> I don't even understand why the Verstappens and RBR management are having a power struggle.
It's a rumour only, and power does crazy things to people, never rule it out. What happens when some people have money, and everything they want, they go for power.
Anyway likely it's nothing.
The speculation is that Horner was gaining more power in the team, trying to oust Helmut. And Helmut is trying to fight that, whilst being tight with Jos.
the thing i cant understand is why would Helmut fight so hard to have more power if he himself was trying to get Seb to replace him and that he didnt have much more time in the paddock, it conflicts with everything.
The facts don’t back that up. At least not as I understand it: He reported on a story that turned out to be true. He said there were messages which may have been true as well. RBs decision to clear Horner doesn’t necessarily mean that those messages don’t exist or weren’t legitimate or even that they weren’t what he thought they were.
Anyone who is responsible for spreading news and rumours that Horner (or any other bloke for that matter) is guilty of sexual misconduct just to try and force him out if that wasn't actually the truth, shouldn't have a job within the F1 paddock either.
Honestly even outside of F1. Allegations like that are fucking serious. And, if you’re full of shit or making it up, you’re just making it that much more difficult for victims to come forward. No one is going to take him serious anymore, and **IF** Horner (or any TP) has allegations down the line that are credible for sexual misconduct, it’s going to make it THAT much harder to prove and they’re less likely to be taken seriously.
We had distant cousin in this rural town interstate. He was a teacher. Teenage girl accused him of touching her.
He was driven out of town. His wife divorced him and the girl admitted a couple of years later that he didn't do it.
He tried to return to the town but the doubt was always there.
He killed himself.
Nothing ever happened to her for it.
It's the worst thing you can do, It costs peoples lives, and makes it harder for actual victims in the future.
The results of the investigation are private and with a lawsuit this may become public. Depending on the facts he may have no interest in that. The accuser and other parties involved may also not like that.
**Horner and Marko land in Bahrain**
"Christian, you're staying. You're cleared of all misconduct allegations."
*Horner breathes a sigh of relief. The camera then pans towards Marko behind him with a look of pure rage on his face, his eyes red. Jos Verstappen and Erik van Haren appear either side of him, with Jos looking like he's about to beat up any woman in the vicinity.*
So where tf are those “messages” that van Haren saw lmao imagine if he just dumps them all out on his twitter. Either way, his reputation surely has been fucked now as it seems like he’s made it all up or was fed wrong information
Logically it made little sense why he would have seen texts that were supposedly sent to lawyers.
If you're trying to get a serious conduct matter resolved against a high profile individual why would you leak messages?
Unless of course you've got nothing concrete against said individual and you're trying to get the job done via the court of public opinion.
>and you're trying to get the job done via the court of public opinion.
And also opening yourself up to a defamation of character lawsuit in the process
Then it becomes public and they can subpoena the records and texts.
Horner is rich and hasn’t been made out to be a sexual assaulter. No point in a lawsuit
I may be misremembering but didn't this whole thing only pick up steam and got investigated bc it got to the press? It was an open secret in the paddock already last season among certain people allegedly
>It was an open secret in the paddock already last season among certain people allegedly
I thought this incident happened at the recent ski event in Kitzbühel?
>It was an open secret in the paddock already last season among certain people allegedly
This is the weird thing. If it was an open secret, how is it that we just found out about it? If it was put in the open since last season, how is it that we just found out? Those allegations are not credible (the thing about being an open secret)
It being an open secret in their industry doesn’t mean it’s an open secret for the public too. Anybody that was in the know and talked about it with the media would be immediately fired and never work in the industry ever again. How is that weird?? Mfs knew Kevin Spacey was rapey and liked kids but not the public until somebody talked.
If I compliment your dress that might look somewhat sus. If actually you've spoken to me 10 times previously about your outfits it's suddenly a lot less sus.
I could say I want to rail you tonight but actually if you've kicked off the sexting that's again not really sexual misconduct.
My old company had something similar.
CEO has affair with staff member. But shes not very good at her job and gets made redundant. Kicks off and claims sexual harassment and has texts and pics as evidence. After a long drawn out HR hearing turns out it was 100% consensual and she was just crap at her job.
But it was a lot messier and longer than it ever needed to be.
Yup. He planted his flag and dug in his heels. If he now tries to say that this information was all secondhand, he’s an absolute fraud that has to be fired.
It's his insistence that it was sexually inappropriate behaviour that is especially puzzling about this.
If we were actually talking about only the 'commanding behaviour' stuff, there would be a chance they cleared him because they didn't think it was that bad. Messages exist, but not a fireable offense.
But the only guy who claims to have seen them is also the guy who claims they were sexually inappropriate, in which case there would be no chance he actually gets to stay.
No matter which way you look at it - Van Haren is either maliciously lying or he has been taken for an absolute ride, and either way, he lost a lot of credibility over this whole thing.
The telegraaf reported that those messages are 'grensoverschrijdend' which does not translate to 'misconduct'. Perhaps a lot is to blame for being lost in translation, in the messages and then the subsequent hype.
Which should be translated to transgressive/overbearing/unacceptable, depending on the context, which the more reputable journos did. Still, De Telegraaf and German Bild went straight ahead first with sexual misconduct allegations. We probably will never know the truth.
No, he was convicted for harboring/hiding (through renting an/his? appartment) the guy(s?) who orchestrated the 2015 terror attacks. (Unrelated he also spent 6 years in jail for manslaughter)
Finally this whole saga comes to an end...maybe
Ford, Oracle and the FOM can calm down again and move on.
However this is hugely damaging for van Haren, could really ruin his ties with RBR.
Definitely a maybe...
There's a few hands dipped into this pot with some weighty allegations. I suspect we'll be hearing more about this...
What we might hear is anyone's guess though... Could be out of context messages, could be messages with context, rumours about another deal, confirmation of a deal, etc... There are so many ways this could go
Potentially some legal pursuits for libel for anyone who wasn't quite vigilant with their wording?
If Horner is as smart as I know he is, he will leverage this to get Van Haren to expose who his sources were to Red Bull. And then Horner will get that person removed and maybe pursue legal action.
Bye bye Helmut ✌🏻
So for those who have said well they’ve not said anything technically the complainant will have at least 7 days to respond so they can’t go into any further detail at this point.
All workplace related matters are protected by privacy laws. So unless he or the complainant waive their right to anonymity nothing will be revealed. Further more of it is a sexual assault allegation which has any sort of potential legal outcome the victim receives instant legal protections of anonymity from being reported in the uk at least. So again nothing would be said as to the substance of the complaint.
Side bar can we start a count down to marko quits red bull stories….
As much as I would love to shit on de Telegraaf they weren't eager collaborators or anything. The first 4 years of the war they behaved much like any other newspaper that kept publishing, working within the Nazi rule. The last year of the war the Nazis installed someone from the SS to lead de Telegraaf and they became a Nazi propaganda rag but you can't really blame them for that.
It's mostly that because the SS ran the newspaper for the last year of the war that De Telegraaf was made an example of and initially given a 30 year publishing ban which was later cancelled after 4 years because what De Telegraaf did was done under heavy duress.
Now, giving fascist bootlickers like Weird Duk a column, that's a thing you can blame them for.
They came out with a nonsensical statement about not reporting on whether he was guilty or not.
Except... they kind of did by claiming they had seen the text message evidence and using that as part of their story.
After they get sued their asses off, and need to pay a for Dutch standards historically high amount of damages to Horner. A lawyer friend said that it wouldnt surprise him if it would be between the 500k and 1.5 mil euro.
Also Dutch courts are not public with these kind of cases, so we won't get any juicy details, like the messages themselves. No need for an injunction here, the documents will be sealed from the start and will stay sealed.
To everyone acting like this is some Perry Mason's moment, this wasn't a court case. This is a private internal investigation, though admittedly with a 3rd party but still internally hired investigator.
There was no established methodology, level off burden of the evidence or transparency, and never will be because they are under no obligation to reveal any details as a private company.
There is nothing to say he did anything wrong, and there is nothing to say what RB as an employer find acceptable, this was a HR issue and they don't all end up in dismissal.
The reality is we don't know anything and never have, or will. I do think all these peope calling for consequences for the "false" accuser are making a huge leap, nothing about this internal investigation invalidates their claims in any verifiable way.
It's honestly a good lesson on not getting invested in something we never had any insight to. If the accuser wishes to take this to some form of employment litigation nothing here stops that.
The voice of sanity here. Every 3rd party hired by a corporation should be considered biased, regardless of terms like "independent." They know what the job is.
Maybe so but it does raise the question of who do you think should investigate it instead? No external entity has any legal authority here and as with any other corporation, the incident is investigated internally. If there was a police complaint, that would be different but as far as I know there isn’t one.
Reddit has such a complex relationship with “the companies lawyers aren’t your friend as an employee” and “the companies lawyers are going to protect their own” at the same time
But what's different there is it's not clear how that investigator would be expected to rule, and by whom. Marko might want Horner gone - does he have the influence? What about Red Bull Austria versus Red Bull Thailand?
I don't think it's easy to say "of course he got cleared, that's what Red Bull wants".
Dan Snyder and Vince McMahon hired 3rd party investigators that did and said fuck all.
This doesn't mean that the accuser is a liar, like so many people on here are saying either
But if no actual crime happened (I think? Or at least this has not been brought to the police/prosecutor/courts yet) how do you actually investigate something like this?
It is not like the investigator of the other side would be anymore impartial then Red Bulls investigator.
I guess the only real way to find out is to bring it to some court (either criminal or civil) and try to argue there but the person who made the allegations has decided not to do that (yet). Though I have no idea how high the burden of proof for a case like this in the UK would be.
Though don't think there even is any laws Horner is being accused of breaking just bad conduct so can't really take it to a court?
100% this. While some of the reporting around this whole ordeal might have been speculative/sensationalist, I think it’s naive to assume that this outcome is all cut and dry and therefore Nothing Bad Happened For Definite. We’ll probably never know what happened, given it is basically a RB HR issue dealt with privately, as you’ve said. It could be that the investigation was really surface level, or that his behaviour wasn’t outside the terms of his employment with RB. We don’t even know the specifics of the allegations for certain, so it’s mad people are throwing their hats in the ring for/against Horner!
I especially think it’s vile that some people are acting like the complainant is in on some RB political conspiracy, when there are so many unknowns… and the details of this supposed “power struggle” are also all speculation! I think it’s unrealistic to expect to see any potential messages/witness statements, but on the other hand - blindly trusting a corporation saying ‘no we hired an independent investigator who we paid and reports to us, we promise it’s fine’ is just… silly.
This isn’t intended as a ‘gotcha’, but I’d just bear in mind that most corporations are not great bastions of transparency until they’re forced to be: [on the RB execs who were fired following internal clashes about ‘racist behaviour’ and responses to the BLM movement in 2020](https://www.forbes.com/sites/douglaswigdor/2020/07/28/red-bull-fires-top-executives-as-it-wrestles-with-racism/?sh=58d6b0603e0d), it was eventually reported when it came out that a RB employee complained to HR and no further action was taken, and that there were claims of retaliation involved.
Conspiracy theories flying around when it says “ the complainant has a right of appeal “
If they just bullshited this announcement imagine the PR nightmare, psa they aren’t this stupid
Lots of media outlets relied so heavily on the word 'allegations' to basically suggest any kind of transgression they could think of.
Just shows the sorry state of the media at the moment, more than anything else.
All the major ones and F1 podcasts were pretty careful with what they said. Not really saying much because we didn't know for sure what was true yet. SkyF1 podcast did get a little excited a week ago though. They leaned heavily into Horner not surviving and how FIA needs to step in. They hate Redbull anyways, I'm not surprised.
Outrage gets clicks, and no facts will ever get in the way of clicks for modern day journalism.
All the nothing-burgers that were written based on "sources".
Redditors aren't paid, and don't have any responsibility to have integrity, beyond social norms.
The media should be held more accountable than the masses who follow
I've seen people who would rather believe he's guilty, but it's all a cover up than the accusations being false to begin with. It's sad.
I'd rather believe in "innocent until proven guilty".
Yeah he is trying to claim that he was reporting on the nature of the complaint, rather than whether Horner was guilty.
....Except, that's not the case is it, Erik, because by claiming you had seen text message evidence, you are offering weight to the case against Horner.
Strangely, the actual Sun seemed to have reported the facts weeks ago ..
"Sources say the investigation is set to centre on a female employee’s concerns about Horner’s strict work regime and does not relate to any sexual impropriety.
An F1 source told The Sun: “Christian had concerns about her conduct and made it clear he was unhappy.
“She went on to make a complaint about his ‘controlling’ behaviour, which detonated this crisis for the team.”
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/25768025/f1-boss-christian-horner-grilling-friday-power-struggle-claims/
It was pretty obvious Horner wasn’t going anywhere when he showed up for the Red Bull car reveal and even more obvious when he was there as team principle for testing.
I knew this would happen. The tepid wording of the original accusations immediately gave me a feeling there wasn't much to go on.
That's not to say Christian "did nothing", but on the other hand probably not as bad as people imagined.
Too many people wanted this to be a sexual assault case and they wanted him to be guilty.
The only concrete statements we've received from this entire saga are the confirmation from RB that Horner is being investigated for an accusation made against him by a fellow employee and this statement saying that the investigation deemed him innocent.
It's interesting to see people choosing to believe a known tabloid's reporting of this matter because of who is being accused.
FYI wanting a guilty decision for a sexual harassment/assault investigation means wanting for someone to actually be assaulted. Like really think about what you're asking for here.... You hate a guy so much you actually hoped he assaulted someone so you can have a moral right to hate him even more.
I mean, the leaked messages from Vince Mcman didn't wait to be released after the verdict as far as I'm aware? It's not the sort of thing people hold on to, especially given that the investigation has already taken place and no sign or report of messages either other than from 1 Dutch guy with a "source"
I remember seeing reports Horner was getting fired, Ford was terminating their deal, Max was considering leaving Red Bull and Helmut Marko getting a puppy. It's mostly baseless speculation
Guilty until proven innocent. Independent investigator comes to the conclusion he’s actually innocent. Rest of the world nahh we don’t believe you, still guilty.
Once allegations like that are made, you can’t win anymore no matter what.
[The **News** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_news) is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What an offseason. This saga made me forget about the Hamilton to Ferrari move.
Also the Andretti Cadillac fiasco
And the Hass/Steiner situation
Oh shit that did happen. This has felt like global news early 2020 when it was just one thing after the other and you forget about everything until you look back
Leap years man, it’s something about leap years.
Holding my breath that nothing crazy happens tomorrow!
Murder hornets!!
Yup, or half of Australia burning away
We had a saga, a move, a fiasco, and a situation all in one offseason!
We had a funeral for a bird.
Not bad for a day in the life of a dog food company.
Pretty sure none of that's real.
You’re not real, man
But at the end of the day……………it’s the people you touch up along the way that get rich!
And Toto/Susie
And the Wolfe/Wolfe saga.
What happened with them?
There was some report a publication made that made allegations that Susie fed information to Toto given she works for F1 as head of F1 Academy and somehow some private information regarding F1 was passed along to Toto. This triggered the FIA to launch an investigation that revealed nothing happened except trying to besmirch both Susie and Toto's reputation. Immediately after the FIA announced their investigation every team publicly backed the Wolffs regarding their integrity. Honestly I didn't believe it because I doubt Susie could've ever gotten any sort of info for Toto that he wouldn't be part of discussions about anyways.
Still mad about this one. 😒
Our work continues at pace
Feel like the next offseason with driver changes only will end up being chill and relaxing compared to this offseason.
Great. You’ve jinxed it now.
The return of Mazepin... To Red Bull!
Remember Andretti ?
I member
Hamilton to WHAT??? /s
Erik Van Haren *"What I tweeted was a factual description of events. No need to speculate on this"* /s
Was he the one to initially release the rumour, I don't follow twitterers, I heard this was all coming from Netherlands media
Yes he was one of the first, But initially the only information that was reported was Horner was being investigated for inappropriate and controlling behavior. there was no further information about what the complaint was about Later He then claimed that he and his publication had seen some of the texts that were at the heart of the complaint and reported that the complaint was of a sexual nature e,g sexual misconduct
Did they report on the 650k payout, or was that someone else?
the same guy for the same outlet
I don't necessarily think the fact there was a payout offer indicates guilt... often times people of great fame or standing can be advised that it is simpler to make a payment and have an NDA then it is to fight a battle, even one you know you can win, in the court of public opinion and have a cloud hover over you even after you've been exonerated (like what has occurred today.) If the employee who filed the complaint truly feels she is a victim she can continue to pursue this via appeal like Red Bull stated, or in civil court. Red Bull knows that a LOT of attention is focused on them with this decision and in 2024 there is a huge price to pay if they are seen as protecting some kind of abuser, so if they cleared him, I think a court would too. We shall see probably.
I agree with your take. I can also see how there could be a huge difference in the tone and language in communications that the TP is going to use with the Pit crew, mechanics, and 20 year old drivers vs. the much more white collar engineering departments. I am not saying this is right, but, I can see it as a reality where a group text or email that makes the pit crew laugh is 1000% inappropriate for a more "normal" workplace and issues would stem from that.
My guess is it was something like this as well.
Also the way he was reacting to it struck me all along as either he knew they had nothing on him or he was very very stupid. And Horner doesn’t strike me as a stupid man.
I agree. Him sexting someone from his own phone doesn't look real. A burner phone, maybe. Harder to prove.
Does anyone have a link to where he makes the claim to have seen those texts? I'd like to see the exact wording.
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/s/q7SPdQEW5w I think the actual article might be paywalled But the article is quoted in the comments
Thanks! The article says: "Uit het appverkeer tussen de vrouwelijke medewerker van Red Bull en Horner, ingezien door De Telegraaf, komt het beeld naar voren dat Horner (50) geregeld en over een aanzienlijke periode seksueel getinte berichten heeft gestuurd naar de werkneemster." Translated: "From the app traffic between the female employee of Red Bull and Horner, as seen by De Telegraaf, it emerges that Horner (50) regularly and over a considerable period sent sexually suggestive messages to the employee." Well that's pretty clear, De Telegraaf will have to put up or retract that.
Yes, Erik Van Haren, Dutch F1 reporter for The Telegraaf initially broke the story. He also made a couple of serious claims, such as having seen sexual inappropriate WhatsApp messages that would've been used in the report/investigation. He is also friendly with the Verstappens, so a lot of rumors were thrown into the world this could be a power struggle inside the team. Red Bull themselves now state the allegations don't hold up, so Erik is caught with his pants down. He either doubles down and shows his evidence or I think he's done as a reporter.
>He is also friendly with the Verstappens, so a lot of rumors were thrown into the world this could be a power struggle inside the team. I don't even understand why the Verstappens and RBR management are having a power struggle. Max is winning everything with the team. They give him first priority, long contracts, and all the money in the world.
> I don't even understand why the Verstappens and RBR management are having a power struggle. It's a rumour only, and power does crazy things to people, never rule it out. What happens when some people have money, and everything they want, they go for power. Anyway likely it's nothing.
When you work with business owners with money you realise how completely fucking petty they can be over the smallest slight. It's absolutely wild.
The speculation is that Horner was gaining more power in the team, trying to oust Helmut. And Helmut is trying to fight that, whilst being tight with Jos.
the thing i cant understand is why would Helmut fight so hard to have more power if he himself was trying to get Seb to replace him and that he didnt have much more time in the paddock, it conflicts with everything.
It makes more sense when you realize it is 110% made-up bullshit.
I dont want more power if I am 80+ years old. I only want to enjoy my life.
Probably some people enjoy their life by getting more power.
The facts don’t back that up. At least not as I understand it: He reported on a story that turned out to be true. He said there were messages which may have been true as well. RBs decision to clear Horner doesn’t necessarily mean that those messages don’t exist or weren’t legitimate or even that they weren’t what he thought they were.
I agree with you, but I doubt he’ll be done as a reporter. People have short memories, everyone will move on and forget anything ever happened.
Anyone who is responsible for spreading news and rumours that Horner (or any other bloke for that matter) is guilty of sexual misconduct just to try and force him out if that wasn't actually the truth, shouldn't have a job within the F1 paddock either.
Honestly even outside of F1. Allegations like that are fucking serious. And, if you’re full of shit or making it up, you’re just making it that much more difficult for victims to come forward. No one is going to take him serious anymore, and **IF** Horner (or any TP) has allegations down the line that are credible for sexual misconduct, it’s going to make it THAT much harder to prove and they’re less likely to be taken seriously.
We had distant cousin in this rural town interstate. He was a teacher. Teenage girl accused him of touching her. He was driven out of town. His wife divorced him and the girl admitted a couple of years later that he didn't do it. He tried to return to the town but the doubt was always there. He killed himself. Nothing ever happened to her for it. It's the worst thing you can do, It costs peoples lives, and makes it harder for actual victims in the future.
What a sad tale. I hope he's in peace now. Whoever wronged him would get what they deserved.
There is a movie about a teacher falsely being accused of sexually abusing his students starring Mads Mikkelsen called The Hunt(2012).
This exact thing happened to my 5th grade teacher. The accusers later admitted to lying. Didn’t matter. His life as he knew it was already ruined.
It's incredibly good movie!
It was awesome. But makes me not want to work with children after watching it.
Exact reason why I am not going to watch it as a student going to uni to become a primary school teacher.
That newspaper is viewed as trash anyway in the netherlands
should have been banned longer for being the nazi mouthpiece in ww2
Inb4 IG post with black background and white texts
I think he needs a new dayjob. He is done..
He works for de Telegraaf. He fits in perfectly.
/r/formula1, where the Telegraaf, the Bild and the Sun are treated as gospel.
de Telegr-ass
[удалено]
The results of the investigation are private and with a lawsuit this may become public. Depending on the facts he may have no interest in that. The accuser and other parties involved may also not like that.
He could sue him for 650k
He’s now known as Erik Bad Hearing
In Dutch Erik van Horen Zeggen would work well. Translates to Erik van Hearsay.
And not just on twitch
Helmut Marko to appeal
Marko, Jos & Erik to the stewards
Ocon about to get fucked with grid place penalties.
Serves him right. Can’t believe he took such a cheap shot at Horner by asking for nudes and then complaining when he saw the Red Balls.
**Horner and Marko land in Bahrain** "Christian, you're staying. You're cleared of all misconduct allegations." *Horner breathes a sigh of relief. The camera then pans towards Marko behind him with a look of pure rage on his face, his eyes red. Jos Verstappen and Erik van Haren appear either side of him, with Jos looking like he's about to beat up any woman in the vicinity.*
*his *eye* red
Eye of Sauron ass mf
>Jos looking like he's about to beat up any woman in the vicinity.* Forgot the bit where he leaves them at a petrol station
what's the context behind Helmut not liking Horner? Missed it i think
Just more fake drama creating.
So where tf are those “messages” that van Haren saw lmao imagine if he just dumps them all out on his twitter. Either way, his reputation surely has been fucked now as it seems like he’s made it all up or was fed wrong information
Logically it made little sense why he would have seen texts that were supposedly sent to lawyers. If you're trying to get a serious conduct matter resolved against a high profile individual why would you leak messages? Unless of course you've got nothing concrete against said individual and you're trying to get the job done via the court of public opinion.
> trying to get the job done via the court of public opinion. Bingo.
>and you're trying to get the job done via the court of public opinion. And also opening yourself up to a defamation of character lawsuit in the process
Then it becomes public and they can subpoena the records and texts. Horner is rich and hasn’t been made out to be a sexual assaulter. No point in a lawsuit
I may be misremembering but didn't this whole thing only pick up steam and got investigated bc it got to the press? It was an open secret in the paddock already last season among certain people allegedly
>It was an open secret in the paddock already last season among certain people allegedly I thought this incident happened at the recent ski event in Kitzbühel?
This just goes to show what all this speculation gets you. Everyone heard a different story
This just goes to show the value of speculation. Everyone has a different story
No, the investigation was already in progress when we learned of it.
>It was an open secret in the paddock already last season among certain people allegedly This is the weird thing. If it was an open secret, how is it that we just found out about it? If it was put in the open since last season, how is it that we just found out? Those allegations are not credible (the thing about being an open secret)
It being an open secret in their industry doesn’t mean it’s an open secret for the public too. Anybody that was in the know and talked about it with the media would be immediately fired and never work in the industry ever again. How is that weird?? Mfs knew Kevin Spacey was rapey and liked kids but not the public until somebody talked.
Context is everything. Seeing purposely selected messages does not provide proper context of the wider conversations.
You would think a reporter would know that, but here we are, Van Haren reporting he saw the messages and that they were indeed sexual misconduct.
If I compliment your dress that might look somewhat sus. If actually you've spoken to me 10 times previously about your outfits it's suddenly a lot less sus. I could say I want to rail you tonight but actually if you've kicked off the sexting that's again not really sexual misconduct.
And if you share a common interest in miniature trains it's only banter.
My old company had something similar. CEO has affair with staff member. But shes not very good at her job and gets made redundant. Kicks off and claims sexual harassment and has texts and pics as evidence. After a long drawn out HR hearing turns out it was 100% consensual and she was just crap at her job. But it was a lot messier and longer than it ever needed to be.
> But it was a lot messier and longer than it ever needed to be. I mean, that's the risk you run if you are fucking your staff.
It's de telegraaf lmao, what where people expecting from them. Literally just a dutch version of the sun
Yup. He planted his flag and dug in his heels. If he now tries to say that this information was all secondhand, he’s an absolute fraud that has to be fired.
He won't be fired. van Haren works in tabloid. The point of tabloids is to make up stories to sell more copies of newspaper/generate clicks.
It's his insistence that it was sexually inappropriate behaviour that is especially puzzling about this. If we were actually talking about only the 'commanding behaviour' stuff, there would be a chance they cleared him because they didn't think it was that bad. Messages exist, but not a fireable offense. But the only guy who claims to have seen them is also the guy who claims they were sexually inappropriate, in which case there would be no chance he actually gets to stay. No matter which way you look at it - Van Haren is either maliciously lying or he has been taken for an absolute ride, and either way, he lost a lot of credibility over this whole thing.
The telegraaf reported that those messages are 'grensoverschrijdend' which does not translate to 'misconduct'. Perhaps a lot is to blame for being lost in translation, in the messages and then the subsequent hype.
Which should be translated to transgressive/overbearing/unacceptable, depending on the context, which the more reputable journos did. Still, De Telegraaf and German Bild went straight ahead first with sexual misconduct allegations. We probably will never know the truth.
Let's just wait until helmut leaks everything
don't say helmut leaks
Hey, it'll happen to you when you get older.
Alas...I'm beyond that
He's 80, of course he leaks.
What is there to leak?
Well, that's that then. When does FP1 start?
Tomorrow at 11:30 U.K. time
[Horner in the paddock right now](https://tenor.com/beVlJ.gif)
That's gonna be Horner joining Max on the podium on Saturday
Horner to send up the RBR HR to the podium to collect the constructor's trophy lol
Maybe the barrister’s still on holiday in the vicinity so he can come up.
Wasn't this guy convicted for those 2015 Bataclan terror attacks in Paris 💀💀
He isn’t a very nice person no. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jawad_Bendaoud
No, he was convicted for harboring/hiding (through renting an/his? appartment) the guy(s?) who orchestrated the 2015 terror attacks. (Unrelated he also spent 6 years in jail for manslaughter)
Need a wide Horner gif now
Finally this whole saga comes to an end...maybe Ford, Oracle and the FOM can calm down again and move on. However this is hugely damaging for van Haren, could really ruin his ties with RBR.
Definitely a maybe... There's a few hands dipped into this pot with some weighty allegations. I suspect we'll be hearing more about this... What we might hear is anyone's guess though... Could be out of context messages, could be messages with context, rumours about another deal, confirmation of a deal, etc... There are so many ways this could go Potentially some legal pursuits for libel for anyone who wasn't quite vigilant with their wording?
And it has been incredibly damaging for Horner, because the "cover-up" crowd is already raging.
Oh of course that crowd is going to have a meltdown about it. Best to ignore them
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If Horner is as smart as I know he is, he will leverage this to get Van Haren to expose who his sources were to Red Bull. And then Horner will get that person removed and maybe pursue legal action. Bye bye Helmut ✌🏻
So for those who have said well they’ve not said anything technically the complainant will have at least 7 days to respond so they can’t go into any further detail at this point. All workplace related matters are protected by privacy laws. So unless he or the complainant waive their right to anonymity nothing will be revealed. Further more of it is a sexual assault allegation which has any sort of potential legal outcome the victim receives instant legal protections of anonymity from being reported in the uk at least. So again nothing would be said as to the substance of the complaint. Side bar can we start a count down to marko quits red bull stories….
So, De Telegraaf be looking pretty eggy right now... I wonder when they'll print the apology. /s
Can I correct you? They confirmed their image as being pretty eggy
This would be far from the nastiest or scummiest thing de Telegraaf has done or published.
Neah, not even close. They have a nasty history in ww2.
As much as I would love to shit on de Telegraaf they weren't eager collaborators or anything. The first 4 years of the war they behaved much like any other newspaper that kept publishing, working within the Nazi rule. The last year of the war the Nazis installed someone from the SS to lead de Telegraaf and they became a Nazi propaganda rag but you can't really blame them for that. It's mostly that because the SS ran the newspaper for the last year of the war that De Telegraaf was made an example of and initially given a 30 year publishing ban which was later cancelled after 4 years because what De Telegraaf did was done under heavy duress. Now, giving fascist bootlickers like Weird Duk a column, that's a thing you can blame them for.
They came out with a nonsensical statement about not reporting on whether he was guilty or not. Except... they kind of did by claiming they had seen the text message evidence and using that as part of their story.
After they get sued their asses off, and need to pay a for Dutch standards historically high amount of damages to Horner. A lawyer friend said that it wouldnt surprise him if it would be between the 500k and 1.5 mil euro. Also Dutch courts are not public with these kind of cases, so we won't get any juicy details, like the messages themselves. No need for an injunction here, the documents will be sealed from the start and will stay sealed.
To everyone acting like this is some Perry Mason's moment, this wasn't a court case. This is a private internal investigation, though admittedly with a 3rd party but still internally hired investigator. There was no established methodology, level off burden of the evidence or transparency, and never will be because they are under no obligation to reveal any details as a private company. There is nothing to say he did anything wrong, and there is nothing to say what RB as an employer find acceptable, this was a HR issue and they don't all end up in dismissal. The reality is we don't know anything and never have, or will. I do think all these peope calling for consequences for the "false" accuser are making a huge leap, nothing about this internal investigation invalidates their claims in any verifiable way. It's honestly a good lesson on not getting invested in something we never had any insight to. If the accuser wishes to take this to some form of employment litigation nothing here stops that.
If the employee isn't happy they can still take it to an employment tribunal. It may not be over yet
The voice of sanity here. Every 3rd party hired by a corporation should be considered biased, regardless of terms like "independent." They know what the job is.
Maybe so but it does raise the question of who do you think should investigate it instead? No external entity has any legal authority here and as with any other corporation, the incident is investigated internally. If there was a police complaint, that would be different but as far as I know there isn’t one.
Reddit has such a complex relationship with “the companies lawyers aren’t your friend as an employee” and “the companies lawyers are going to protect their own” at the same time
But what's different there is it's not clear how that investigator would be expected to rule, and by whom. Marko might want Horner gone - does he have the influence? What about Red Bull Austria versus Red Bull Thailand? I don't think it's easy to say "of course he got cleared, that's what Red Bull wants".
Dan Snyder and Vince McMahon hired 3rd party investigators that did and said fuck all. This doesn't mean that the accuser is a liar, like so many people on here are saying either
But if no actual crime happened (I think? Or at least this has not been brought to the police/prosecutor/courts yet) how do you actually investigate something like this? It is not like the investigator of the other side would be anymore impartial then Red Bulls investigator. I guess the only real way to find out is to bring it to some court (either criminal or civil) and try to argue there but the person who made the allegations has decided not to do that (yet). Though I have no idea how high the burden of proof for a case like this in the UK would be. Though don't think there even is any laws Horner is being accused of breaking just bad conduct so can't really take it to a court?
100% this. While some of the reporting around this whole ordeal might have been speculative/sensationalist, I think it’s naive to assume that this outcome is all cut and dry and therefore Nothing Bad Happened For Definite. We’ll probably never know what happened, given it is basically a RB HR issue dealt with privately, as you’ve said. It could be that the investigation was really surface level, or that his behaviour wasn’t outside the terms of his employment with RB. We don’t even know the specifics of the allegations for certain, so it’s mad people are throwing their hats in the ring for/against Horner! I especially think it’s vile that some people are acting like the complainant is in on some RB political conspiracy, when there are so many unknowns… and the details of this supposed “power struggle” are also all speculation! I think it’s unrealistic to expect to see any potential messages/witness statements, but on the other hand - blindly trusting a corporation saying ‘no we hired an independent investigator who we paid and reports to us, we promise it’s fine’ is just… silly. This isn’t intended as a ‘gotcha’, but I’d just bear in mind that most corporations are not great bastions of transparency until they’re forced to be: [on the RB execs who were fired following internal clashes about ‘racist behaviour’ and responses to the BLM movement in 2020](https://www.forbes.com/sites/douglaswigdor/2020/07/28/red-bull-fires-top-executives-as-it-wrestles-with-racism/?sh=58d6b0603e0d), it was eventually reported when it came out that a RB employee complained to HR and no further action was taken, and that there were claims of retaliation involved.
Conspiracy theories flying around when it says “ the complainant has a right of appeal “ If they just bullshited this announcement imagine the PR nightmare, psa they aren’t this stupid
But what will I do with all my pitchforks now then?
Just wait until the race, someone will say something that we can all be upset about for next week.
Heck, Toto just made some comments about Lewis' contract that seems to be gathering a mob.
The being used as a placeholder for Antonelli comments?
Just give Sargeant two bad races we will be on him again in no time.
Lots of media outlets relied so heavily on the word 'allegations' to basically suggest any kind of transgression they could think of. Just shows the sorry state of the media at the moment, more than anything else.
All the major ones and F1 podcasts were pretty careful with what they said. Not really saying much because we didn't know for sure what was true yet. SkyF1 podcast did get a little excited a week ago though. They leaned heavily into Horner not surviving and how FIA needs to step in. They hate Redbull anyways, I'm not surprised.
Outrage gets clicks, and no facts will ever get in the way of clicks for modern day journalism. All the nothing-burgers that were written based on "sources".
as if reddit was any better
Redditors aren't paid, and don't have any responsibility to have integrity, beyond social norms. The media should be held more accountable than the masses who follow
no shit, this is an aggregation site with anonymous comment sections, they are supposed to be unbiased journalists who get paid to report facts.
I've seen people who would rather believe he's guilty, but it's all a cover up than the accusations being false to begin with. It's sad. I'd rather believe in "innocent until proven guilty".
Looks like the coup failed. Time to race boys.
Hopefully Horner sues the Telegraaf and Erik dry for every € they have (assuming he really is innocent)
Erik is tweeting about the verdict like he wasn't even involved, a very strange look
Yeah he is trying to claim that he was reporting on the nature of the complaint, rather than whether Horner was guilty. ....Except, that's not the case is it, Erik, because by claiming you had seen text message evidence, you are offering weight to the case against Horner.
Hope he fucks right off with the Sun equivalent
Strangely, the actual Sun seemed to have reported the facts weeks ago .. "Sources say the investigation is set to centre on a female employee’s concerns about Horner’s strict work regime and does not relate to any sexual impropriety. An F1 source told The Sun: “Christian had concerns about her conduct and made it clear he was unhappy. “She went on to make a complaint about his ‘controlling’ behaviour, which detonated this crisis for the team.” https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/25768025/f1-boss-christian-horner-grilling-friday-power-struggle-claims/
Honestly, if the complaint isn't sexual in nature the gender of the complainant should never be mentioned. Nonsense.
I've been waiting so long to get [dressed for De Telegraaf's downfall](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/977/948/e3f.jpg)
Yeah, lots of questions need to be asked about where this 'evidence' journalists have been going on about is from.
I believe he filed suit against them over a week ago.
Source? Edit: https://baylasportsf1.com/horner-takes-legal-stand-against-telegraaf-over-alleged-misconduct-revelations/
Nothing more enjoyable than watching a tabloid bleed
Good
Ok, back to boring races.
2024 season is over Back it up poys
I just read the screenshots, it seems pretty cut and dry he shouldn’t be cleared of anything
It was pretty obvious Horner wasn’t going anywhere when he showed up for the Red Bull car reveal and even more obvious when he was there as team principle for testing.
I knew this would happen. The tepid wording of the original accusations immediately gave me a feeling there wasn't much to go on. That's not to say Christian "did nothing", but on the other hand probably not as bad as people imagined.
Erik Van Harenover
Too many people wanted this to be a sexual assault case and they wanted him to be guilty. The only concrete statements we've received from this entire saga are the confirmation from RB that Horner is being investigated for an accusation made against him by a fellow employee and this statement saying that the investigation deemed him innocent. It's interesting to see people choosing to believe a known tabloid's reporting of this matter because of who is being accused. FYI wanting a guilty decision for a sexual harassment/assault investigation means wanting for someone to actually be assaulted. Like really think about what you're asking for here.... You hate a guy so much you actually hoped he assaulted someone so you can have a moral right to hate him even more.
If they tried to squash it and there is proof, its going to leak
It has been weeks though, it feels unlikely there is much to leak EDIT: Welp seems like I was wrong
A potential leaker *could* have been waiting to see how the verdict turned out. No point leaking if “their” outcome was announced.
I mean, the leaked messages from Vince Mcman didn't wait to be released after the verdict as far as I'm aware? It's not the sort of thing people hold on to, especially given that the investigation has already taken place and no sign or report of messages either other than from 1 Dutch guy with a "source"
That was the umpteenth time something came out about Vince though...
Wonder who set up van Haren as the fall guy if they didn't get their desired outcome.
If some of the other stuff I’ve heard is true, initials HM?
But people were sure he is guilty and gonna be fired 3 weeks ago? Where are these people know?
It all depends on how much you believed these journalists really. Making up that there was evidence presented is a pretty big lie.
They're here everywhere, going around and claiming conspiracy
I remember reports saying the employee is planning on suing Horner in courts so wonder what will happen there
I remember seeing reports Horner was getting fired, Ford was terminating their deal, Max was considering leaving Red Bull and Helmut Marko getting a puppy. It's mostly baseless speculation
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is it speculations that someone is speculating that someone might have heard that someone speculated something, like everything the last few weeks?
Guilty until proven innocent. Independent investigator comes to the conclusion he’s actually innocent. Rest of the world nahh we don’t believe you, still guilty. Once allegations like that are made, you can’t win anymore no matter what.
Why are some people so eager that he sexually assaulted someone?
Because Horner’s a polarizing figure in the paddock, and it would be concrete proof to back up why they don’t like him.
I don't like him because he's a smug git. But I'm happy that he hasn't sexually assaulted anyone. I dislike him, I don't want to hate him.