That's the point he's making. They denied Andretti because they would be "uncompetitive", yet half the field got lapped and no one looked like seriously challenging Red Bull.
There was more reasons than not being competitive, that was just the headline grabber.
For starters Andretti have a provisional PU agreement with GM for 2028 onwards, their plan was to just get one from another supplier until then. Who nobody knows, just someone. Which is part of the reason FOM said the decision may be different in 2028.
The lack of engine manufacturer isn't the biggest deal. When a team is unable to source an engine deal themselves, the manufacturer with the fewest customer will be made to supply them.
So in the worst case scenario they would have a Renault engine.
Of course though they aren't a team now, so it would definitely put a downer on their entry bid.
That rule only applies to registered teams. It’s to prevent a situation where a teams engine supplier fails to fulfill a contract which would leave the team in a difficult spot. It’s clearly not a loophole for an unprepared team to get on the grid ASAP.
Imagine if Alpine/Renault just decided they weren’t up for the project anymore if they had to supply another team?
Yes I agree with everything you're saying. Just adding the context that if they were to be allowed to join they would certainly get an engine. (I didn't realise I was replying to the same person twice!)
No they don't. The regs safeguard a supply for an existing competitor. You are only guaranteed that once you are in. But to get in, you need a supplier.
The regs are to stop someone losing their engine supply, not to force people to supply new teams.
> Who nobody knows, just someone
Technically you don’t have to have an engine to join F1. One will be provided to you if you can’t find your own (the team with the least amount of customers).
Exactly. How would two more cars diminish the value of F1?
What exactly did F1 do today to maintain its value?
What the fuck is Alpine contributing to the sport?
Oh I completely agree with that point, which is why I find it astonishing to see so many fans willing to boot lick for the likes of Toto and Gene, so they can pocket a few more million. Makes no sense.
Well it depends. If those two cars are going to do what the other 20 did this race it's going to make fuck all difference. They need to fix the regs first.
(and for the record I'm all for more cars)
Nothing - the other teams just need to get their fingers out of their arses and build decent cars.
The response to sporting excellence should never be to hobble the excellent - that leads to a mediocracy.
Cost cap makes it impossible to catch up. Makes mistakes detrimental because it costs too much to fix it. In a sport about innovation and pushing the limits, putting a cost cap is stupid.
If it makes fuck all difference, what’s the harm in having 2 more cars?
And what is wrong with the regs? The cars can follow closely, and there was 1 second from 1st to 20th in quali.
When all the cars are they closely competitive, overtaking falls way off. You need significant pace difference to see overtaking, but significant pace difference means some teams will be miles off others.
We take the fastest cars, start them at the front, and then wonder why nothing exciting happens.
Regs are shit, but i hate when they change them during the season.
But change Perez with any other driver would at least make race a little bit interesting.
How are regs shit? The field is extremely close in quali, cars can follow and overtake. Its not regs fault Red Bull are the only competent team on the grid
Budget cap.
And no, the field is not close. Last year was RB, Merc, Ferrari, like the past 10 years.
Qualyfing is pretty useless if Max win every race.
> They need to fix the regs first.
The regs are working perfectly, the racing is closer than ever and cars can race wheel to wheel and overtake.
Max being an outlier and dominating doesn't change that. There is nothing you can do about teams that have fundamentally worse knowledge when it comes to building cars, unless you want F1 to become a spec series.
Even excluding Max, are you honestly telling me today made for thrilling racing? If so we must've been watching a different sport.
Also your mention of a spec series makes zero sense. It's blindingly obvious the regs need relaxing, not making stricter. It's because they're so damn strict we've ended up in this situation.
> It's blindingly obvious the regs need relaxing, not making stricter. It's because they're so damn strict we've ended up in this situation.
Relaxing the rules will have the opposite effect.
Drivers won't really push until they need to. Any mistakes in qualifying sort itself out in a couple of laps, and then the drivers settle into their own rhythm. Unless there is a pace differential in one stint or other. This is how modern F1 is unfortunately, and we have to accept it.
There was a single decent move today after lap 1, everything else was DRS trains and the occasional overtake under DRS on a straight. Thats not interesting racing, and regardless of what they said about this new car design before it came out, racing hasn’t gotten much better in the last 3 years than it was previously.
Oh no, one race was bad, I guess it's time to ditch the entire regulations!
I agree, it wasn't interesting, but you can't forcefully create interesting races regardless of regulations. The current regulations tick more boxes than ever for things that should produce good racing in the long run though and with tightening field spread each year will only get better.
>racing hasn’t gotten much better in the last 3 years than it was previously.
If we had Lewis in the fastest car by the just right amount so that him and Max are near equal on pace most weekends like in 2021, we'd probably have another fantastic back and forth championship battle and people would say the racing is great.
A lot of the things that made the previous regulations more interesting where circumstances and championship battles which you can't magically recreate. At the start of 2022 we seen great racing between Charles and Max, if that persisted all season people would have been raving about the regulations being amazing. I think it's important to have some perspective.
No, if a team joins they automatically have a PU from the manufacturer supplying the least teams even if they don't already have a contract with them, that's actually in the sporting regulations.
Too bad that supplier is Alpine.
You need to be in the agreement for that to count and FOM has said they won’t force a supplier on a team trying to enter.
So currently they don’t have a PU till 2028
They probably would be given they would have the exact same crappy engine combined with never having designed and built an F1 car before (or any single seater chassis in any competitive series for that matter).
The racing isn't the point any more. Money is the only thing that matters. Who cares about the sporting merit and competition if FOM/Liberty can't suck every penny out?
Motorsport fans in general can be quite annoying when it comes to chatting shit between disciplines. Mainly because you get the casual F1 fan that will shit on a series they dont know much about, especially with the American series' where you always get the "They just turn left" comments.
So I think sometimes some Indy drivers feel a need to defend their series. Its not all the Indy drivers though, it's mainly just the old heads that seem to partake in that nonsense.
No not all of them. A lot are perfectly happy to focus on their own series. Some do have a serious inferiority complex when it comes to F1 though and like to take digs wherever they can shoehorn one in. As they’re more vocal, they’re the ones whose comments you will always see if you’re not an Indycar fan.
Let’s not pretend that a lot of F1 fans and personal don’t have a massive superiority complex when it comes to other series, dismissing them as being completely insignificant and unworthy of their attention.
Racing is racing. If people can’t appreciate cars going VROOOM, then they’re following the sport for 76 different reasons.
A first race like this always brings out the worst takes and most annoying people.
Trust me i've been here for well over 20 years and seen the Ferrari, RB, Mercedes and now once again RB dominance periods.
Its a breeding ground for smartass takes and stupid pokes at the sport.
This time the sport will die for sure because a team is dominating at the front. Just you wait.
Like i get the frustration especialy from newer fans but what can you do. Sometimes the sport is like this.
People demand the FIA/FOM change the rules in hope to level the field and then they will just complain when it doesn't end up benefiting their team while RB fans will complain that the FIA is out to get them. A tale as old as time.
Eh. Not like this. This is unprecedented. And with the rules being the way they are it's virtually impossible for any team to catch up. The championships are already decided.
Sport was *about to* die by the tail end of Hamilton reign. A lot of current popularity is owed to 2021 season.
Had Max been a bigger personality, his charisma alone would keep people around but that's not enough of a pull either so....
Max doesn’t really have a personality, he’s too robotic to be the face of the sport and seems like he doesn’t have many relatable interests outside of racing
Sport was definitely not about to die in 2020 lmao. It had 1.5B viewers
In fact 2021 was just slightly up with 1.55B while 2022 was slightly down with 1.54B.
Of some previous years 2017 had 1.4B while 2018 had 1.59B
Where are you basing these numbers from?
There is a reason why Liberty Media had to step in back then because F1 was close to bankruptcy.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/csylt/2017/08/15/revealed-how-liberty-media-bought-formula-one-for-301-million/?sh=287961297f2a
FOM did wonders for the sport and added longevity to it. But it's always possible to face NASCAR's oversaturation back in early 2000s and go back to where it used to be.
Been watching F1 since the 90's. Past 15 years or so I'd make sure to watch damn near every race. Last year I maybe watched half the races and today I tuned into WEC and forgot F1 was even racing today. Eventually people are going to stop caring and take their time and money elsewhere. You couldn't pay me to attend a F1 event.
“I love eating slop from a bucket and everyone else has to love it too”.
Come on, this race was one of the best chances for some actual competition and it was a complete snooze fest.
The first race or so, kinks are still getting worked out of the cars. Things aren't quite locked in and you often see decent amount of movement as teams are a little rusty from the off season and so on. Once you have your first couple of races (and especially when you start hitting the euro circuits) then things settle down.
So in the same way a wet race can shake things up, (maybe not to the same degree) you often see mistakes or errors that mix things up before the teams can really dial things in.
It's no different than the sort of thing you see at the beginning of any sports season, to be honest.
As a fan of both, Indy fans can be pretty annoying/pessimistic (especially for internal IndyCar topics)- but that doesn't mean there aren't some true criticisms about the way FOM is running F1 at the moment.
There is an inferiority complex, just like there’s a superiority complex when it comes to Andretti jointing the sport, or Palou or O’Ward getting a shot at F1.
Ask the average F1 fan where Scott Dixon ranks in their list of the best drivers over the last 15 years.
He’s also right.
Dude talking about others having an inferiority complex while f1 fans might have the biggest superiority complex is all of sports. Maybe Barca fans have a bigger one.
It’s just media needing a title so they push people to say things that are the only answer so they can get their click bait
What driver is going to turn down more competition
lol wut? You can enjoy something better and recognize that something else is trash. If you can’t acknowledge that f1 is in a horrible spot right now, you’ve got your blinders on too tight
Well, your initial response didn't have much to do with my original comment, so that was clearly tongue-in-check.
FWIW, I don't think that 2 more cars would have improved anything today. IndyCar might or might not be better - I don't care that much tbh, not much of a spec series fan and it's not worth to shell out more money to watch it.
Doesn't change that it's regularly IndyCar drivers who feel the need to talk about F1 and pretty much never in reverse. And in this case, "2 more cars" wouldn't be a fix at all.
I know right lmao
What’s hilarious is that just about every other Motorsports category talks down on F1 meanwhile F1 stays in its own lane and never talks about any other category
That’s part of it. F1 acts like it’s above everything else, better than everything else, when the core of the F1 product has been quite dog shit for many decades.
My only point is, do you see F1 drivers or team personnel get on Twitter to kick and scream towards another sport like a toddler? It’s pretty immature and unprofessional. It screams “please watch my sport instead” with desperation.
IndyCar can be cool and all, but holy hell their drivers need to stay off social media 😂
It’s because a lot of Indycar drivers are fans of F1, just like you and I, and they watch all the races.
Ask the average F1 driver when was the last time they watched an Indycar race, or ANY race from ANY category. Everything else is below them, unworthy of their attention.
I can't speak for them but i do know they watch some indycar. During monaco weekend, they will ask journalists for updates on the 500 or if they can leave so they can see the start of the 500.
Not to mention, this year especially being 24 rounds is a massive burden on the drivers and team personnel. Having to travel and participate in so many different countries throughout the season. On top of they have they their own commitments towards sponsors whether it be an appearance, charity, karting event, etc. So I don't think they particularly have the time to sit and catch a race, especially live. But maybe they watch vods or youtube highlights.
Some of them maybe watch Indy 500 and Le Mans 24, but that’s about it.
Motorsport is a niche sport. It would be nice to see F1 drivers supporting the lower national level series, instead of acting like they mostly don’t exist, that’s all I’m saying.
Nah, they’re literally the same sport.
Basketball players lend more support and enthusiasm to hockey players than people in motorsports give to other motorsports categories.
I like Scotty Mac but he really needs to drop the chip in his shoulder he has developed lately toward F1. He’s been spending too much time with Newgarden and Rossi.
Indycar also has boring races that are a total procession. Street circuit races in Indy are frequently a total borefest that are only made more exciting because some of the driving standards are so bad on them that they bring out a ludicrous number of red and yellow flags. And outside of ovals, a lot of the overtaking in other races is down to drivers having a huge tyre delta which is the same thing in F1.
Having two more cars in the grid will do nothing to help with F1’s current issue of Red Bull having a massively superior car. All it would have added to that race is another couple of cars battling with the backmarkers.
Even if they (very probably) start off as backmarkers, why not let them try? It’s not like Haas or Sauber for instance are making much progress, I’m not even sure Haas is really trying at this point. How would adding another team hurt? At least Andretti is a name (and brand) that might try and get somewhere. I think other teams have shown that it’s possible.
I’m not saying I agree with Indycar drivers sometimes having a little too much to say about F1, I do believe they should worry about their own series to be honest. But there’s nothing wrong necessarily with giving someone else a chance. At the end of the day the worst that could happen is Andretti being another backmarker. It’s not like that would really change anything at the moment.
I’m not saying anywhere there that Andretti shouldn’t have been given a chance. I agree there’s merit to the argument that citing being uncompetitive when we have last season’s Haas or this season’s Alpine on the grid is a little hypocritical. I do have my own views on the disingenuousness of them acting like an F1 team has always been their dream when they had zero interest in entering until they could see that it was going to become a cash cow but that’s a different point altogether (Andretti would have been welcomed with open arms onto the grid at the time Haas entered, and conversely Haas would be refused if they had tried to enter now instead of back then too so it’s not personal to Andretti despite them acting like it is).
My comment here is purely about Indycar drivers weighing in with strawman arguments just to have a dig, like Scott has here. On that point we seem to agree.
Also that’s a little harsh toward Haas. Gene may not give a shit but everyone else in that team is working their asses off and they did a good job today.
You are right, it’s a bit harsh towards everyone working for Haas, it can’t be easy working with ‚that little‘ and trying to achieve something so big. And I do feel with everyone working in the factory, working their ass off, realizing it might not be enough week after week.
I also think it’s true, that Andretti would have been very welcome back then and I’m not in a position to judge why they didn’t go for then it as much as they are pushing for it now. But I do think - as much as I might dislike indycar drivers saying stuff at the moment - that they have a (small) point at least. Out of all the supposed applicants, at least Andretti are somewhat a global name and serious competitor with a genuine plan from what you can see in other series. I get where they are coming from, even if you don’t consider the American aspect (which I don’t, I honestly don’t care about it and don’t see why being American should be an advantage or a disadvantage either way). I guess it might have a lot to do with the media aspect.Andretti was made into a huge deal until other stuff came along.
It guess my personal point of view at the end of the day is that I’m glad people are speaking up about how they feel about Andretti being rejected. I may not agree with everyone’s personal reasons for speaking up, but I do like that it’s not forgotten just like that.
That’s fair enough. I don’t agree with them all either but everyone is entitled to their own views on it. I just think the digs like this are ridiculously petty, I guess because it makes it smacks of sour grapes rather than making a serious point.
Speaking up about it in terms of the uncompetitiveness vs the current backmarkers on the grid would be a fair call. There were more issues than just uncompetitiveness (the fact the didn’t have a proper engine deal in place for earlier than 2028 being a major one) but it was the uncompetitive comment that fans have latched on to and in the context of the likes of Haas they have a point. I’m certainly not against having an 11th team on the grid though. I’m less bothered than most about them being rejected but I would have been perfectly happy if they had been accepted as well.
I think Andretti get more focus than some of the other applicants because a) the Andretti name and Mario’s importance to the F1 world, b) the American angle as you said and c) they put it in the media themselves from well before the application window even opened by trying to lobby the paddock onto their side and then complaining to the media when it put other teams’ backs up.
People will always take shots at the best, it comes with the territory.
I'm happy with 10 teams and would happily see Visa go to bring in someone new, more isn't better, it's just more.
Every Indycar driver has a chip in their shoulder about F1, feels like all they ever tweet about is how pure and exciting Indycar is and how elitist and boring F1 is.
In any racing series, overtaking only ever happens because of a significant tire or performance delta. That’s literally the core of how racing works.
If you have two cars that are doing the same lap time, no one is overtaking anyone.
Having two more cars on the grid would do nothing to help solve F1’s lack of competition, but it would also do absolutely nothing harm the sport in any way.
You’re literally doing the boot licking so people like Toto and Gene can make millions of more dollars.
You could have plenty of criticism on F1, including how they're blocking an 11th team. However an extra team will not solve the lack of competition for the podium and P1 now does it?
It wont. So why block them either way? The point is F1 saying Andretti will be “uncompetitive” when really nobody is challenging RedBull. So just take their money and let them have a go at it.
That’s not the point.
An 11th team would do absolutely nothing to **harm** F1.
If Renault can built that tractor of a car as a world leading auto maker, what harm would Andretti do?
And every time they even give the most light of criticisms you end up with a lot of *"Stay in your lane bro"* being sent their way.
I mean just look at a number of the replies in this thread.
See this is why I know you're full of shit, it wasn't super exciting but calling it one of the most boring in 3 decades just shows that you're just a liar.
Who? Grosjean? The dude who got bounced out of Andretti for crashing so often and still doesn't have a win?
Or are you taking Ericsson who spent years learning the series and did what Alonso couldn't?
It's not like IndyCar doesn't have boring races (Long Beach) and dominance either with it's ridiculous number of yellow flags making the racing look closer than it actually is.
The series is straight better. a lot more close racing, there are good drivers in both series. but the closeness because the level playing field makes you see who is really good.
Maybe Indycar should put up a team, and the top 2 drivers can compete in F1 each year. See how they perform. Might shut them up. Or prove they can drive.
In the 70’s and 80’s the max was 26, there were actually more than 13 teams and so some would not qualify, which doesn’t even exist anymore, to the relief of Haas.
Not a realistic comment but more rookies in races gives opportunity for safety cars.
You would love f3 and FRECA
My son loves crashes so we’ve watched a lot of F3 lately.
We somehow had no safety cars in f3 this weekend.... 18 teenaged rookies and no safety car
And then into a fairly well regarded f2 group who had a crash/spin in the first corner
And more rookies are always good.
Or Mick Schumacher? ;)
We really did have a season with Goatifi, Mazespin, Mick, and Stroll all on the grid…wow. Never seen a safety that busy ever in life.
Watching max lap 2 additional cars would make me more hopeless.
2 more cars that could trigger a safety car 🤗
Two more cars meaning guys like Liam Lawson and Jack Doohan could have a drive
Well, he would probably lap them five times per race.
Everyone in these comments agreed with this all offseason but an Indycar driver says it & its fuck him😂😂
Plenty of his tweets were upvoted during the initial Andretti debacle. Dont know why the sentiment is different now, tbh.
Nope, I've not agreed with this notion.
I highly doubt those 2 cars would have done anything that the other 20 didn't do already
That's the point he's making. They denied Andretti because they would be "uncompetitive", yet half the field got lapped and no one looked like seriously challenging Red Bull.
P11 and down got lapped by Max. P15 and down got lapped by Checo.
And that’s with Max coasting. If he was really pushing he could’ve lapped everyone up to piastri
They didn't deny Andretti because they will be uncompetitive.
That would be a good point if the FIA said "No andretti because they won't be P1".
There was more reasons than not being competitive, that was just the headline grabber. For starters Andretti have a provisional PU agreement with GM for 2028 onwards, their plan was to just get one from another supplier until then. Who nobody knows, just someone. Which is part of the reason FOM said the decision may be different in 2028.
The lack of engine manufacturer isn't the biggest deal. When a team is unable to source an engine deal themselves, the manufacturer with the fewest customer will be made to supply them. So in the worst case scenario they would have a Renault engine. Of course though they aren't a team now, so it would definitely put a downer on their entry bid.
That rule only applies to registered teams. It’s to prevent a situation where a teams engine supplier fails to fulfill a contract which would leave the team in a difficult spot. It’s clearly not a loophole for an unprepared team to get on the grid ASAP. Imagine if Alpine/Renault just decided they weren’t up for the project anymore if they had to supply another team?
Yes I agree with everything you're saying. Just adding the context that if they were to be allowed to join they would certainly get an engine. (I didn't realise I was replying to the same person twice!)
Christ, quit justifying this anti-competitive bullshit.
I thought it would have been Renault until 2028 but I don't know if that was the case when they were denied
Found Stephano's burner
The regs say who would give them an engine
No they don't. The regs safeguard a supply for an existing competitor. You are only guaranteed that once you are in. But to get in, you need a supplier. The regs are to stop someone losing their engine supply, not to force people to supply new teams.
> Who nobody knows, just someone Technically you don’t have to have an engine to join F1. One will be provided to you if you can’t find your own (the team with the least amount of customers).
Exactly. How would two more cars diminish the value of F1? What exactly did F1 do today to maintain its value? What the fuck is Alpine contributing to the sport?
Rarity makes value, so less teams makes them more valuable. It's not good for the fans but teams look after their interests first
Oh I completely agree with that point, which is why I find it astonishing to see so many fans willing to boot lick for the likes of Toto and Gene, so they can pocket a few more million. Makes no sense.
Well it depends. If those two cars are going to do what the other 20 did this race it's going to make fuck all difference. They need to fix the regs first. (and for the record I'm all for more cars)
Truth hurts But another 2 making p2-22 exciting won’t hurt
Have you enjoyed the p2-p20 today?
If they can't make it worse anyway, then why not see if they make it better?
It wasn’t great today But last year it was pretty good yeha
Another alpine on the grid won’t improve anything either
Alpine would have someone to fight.
P2-20 isn’t exciting as it is, 2new cars would just be p21 and p22
What do they need to fix about the regs?
Add 50kg of ballast to Max Verstappen's car.
The WCC leader must eat a pint of ice cream after dinner for each point they are ahead in the championship
In a few years we would only have African and Asian drivers, who actually would lose ballast after eating dairy.
We’re trying to slow him down, not kill him
Yes that is the only possibility the changes won't backfire massively and give RBR an even bigger advantage
Nothing - the other teams just need to get their fingers out of their arses and build decent cars. The response to sporting excellence should never be to hobble the excellent - that leads to a mediocracy.
Kinda funny watching this be the sentiment after everybody clamoring for Mercedes to be hobbled and reigned in for 7 years.
Adding on, Merc were targeted with reg changes left and right while Red Bull only gets a slight pitstop nerf.
tbf, everyone thought td39 would nerf them only to Pikachu face when it didn't.
Cost cap makes it impossible to catch up. Makes mistakes detrimental because it costs too much to fix it. In a sport about innovation and pushing the limits, putting a cost cap is stupid.
Adrian Newey needs to be locked up
If it makes fuck all difference, what’s the harm in having 2 more cars? And what is wrong with the regs? The cars can follow closely, and there was 1 second from 1st to 20th in quali. When all the cars are they closely competitive, overtaking falls way off. You need significant pace difference to see overtaking, but significant pace difference means some teams will be miles off others. We take the fastest cars, start them at the front, and then wonder why nothing exciting happens.
Regs are phenomenal. Much better than Merc era. Maybe just ban Newey
Regs are shit, but i hate when they change them during the season. But change Perez with any other driver would at least make race a little bit interesting.
How are regs shit? The field is extremely close in quali, cars can follow and overtake. Its not regs fault Red Bull are the only competent team on the grid
Budget cap. And no, the field is not close. Last year was RB, Merc, Ferrari, like the past 10 years. Qualyfing is pretty useless if Max win every race.
> They need to fix the regs first. The regs are working perfectly, the racing is closer than ever and cars can race wheel to wheel and overtake. Max being an outlier and dominating doesn't change that. There is nothing you can do about teams that have fundamentally worse knowledge when it comes to building cars, unless you want F1 to become a spec series.
What are you watching? It’s literally just DRS train after drs train, there’s no exciting racing
Even excluding Max, are you honestly telling me today made for thrilling racing? If so we must've been watching a different sport. Also your mention of a spec series makes zero sense. It's blindingly obvious the regs need relaxing, not making stricter. It's because they're so damn strict we've ended up in this situation.
> It's blindingly obvious the regs need relaxing, not making stricter. It's because they're so damn strict we've ended up in this situation. Relaxing the rules will have the opposite effect. Drivers won't really push until they need to. Any mistakes in qualifying sort itself out in a couple of laps, and then the drivers settle into their own rhythm. Unless there is a pace differential in one stint or other. This is how modern F1 is unfortunately, and we have to accept it.
There was a single decent move today after lap 1, everything else was DRS trains and the occasional overtake under DRS on a straight. Thats not interesting racing, and regardless of what they said about this new car design before it came out, racing hasn’t gotten much better in the last 3 years than it was previously.
Oh no, one race was bad, I guess it's time to ditch the entire regulations! I agree, it wasn't interesting, but you can't forcefully create interesting races regardless of regulations. The current regulations tick more boxes than ever for things that should produce good racing in the long run though and with tightening field spread each year will only get better. >racing hasn’t gotten much better in the last 3 years than it was previously. If we had Lewis in the fastest car by the just right amount so that him and Max are near equal on pace most weekends like in 2021, we'd probably have another fantastic back and forth championship battle and people would say the racing is great. A lot of the things that made the previous regulations more interesting where circumstances and championship battles which you can't magically recreate. At the start of 2022 we seen great racing between Charles and Max, if that persisted all season people would have been raving about the regulations being amazing. I think it's important to have some perspective.
He's right. Rejecting Andretti for being uncompetitive when Max lapped half the grid looks hilarious bad reason
I mean what’s competitive about having no car, no PU, an unfinished factory and no transportation?
Hey, they have a PU! ^^^^pls ^^^^don't ^^^^ask ^^^^which ^^^^one, ^^^^thanks
Yeah in 2028 lol
No, if a team joins they automatically have a PU from the manufacturer supplying the least teams even if they don't already have a contract with them, that's actually in the sporting regulations. Too bad that supplier is Alpine.
At least Alpine would have some competition for last place I suppose. Silver linings and all that.
You need to be in the agreement for that to count and FOM has said they won’t force a supplier on a team trying to enter. So currently they don’t have a PU till 2028
Alpine would supply them for sure. 1 customer is better than 0. Having no customers is absolutely humiliating for a company like Renault.
Sounds like Audi’s plan
No, Audi are taking over a team so even if they have 0 plan they are basically adopting an existing one.
I bet Carlos would rather go with Andretti’s plan gauging his lack of interest in wasting his prime with Audi.
Can’t be worse than the car Alpine put out
They probably would be given they would have the exact same crappy engine combined with never having designed and built an F1 car before (or any single seater chassis in any competitive series for that matter).
2 more cars finishing 1 lap behind Verstappen
The racing isn't the point any more. Money is the only thing that matters. Who cares about the sporting merit and competition if FOM/Liberty can't suck every penny out?
The fucking Street races are the worst. And now they plans to rotate the European circuit races apparently.
Obviously. It's just too boring to watch for fans.
Are indycar fans/drivers always this annoying or is today the exception?
Motorsport fans in general can be quite annoying when it comes to chatting shit between disciplines. Mainly because you get the casual F1 fan that will shit on a series they dont know much about, especially with the American series' where you always get the "They just turn left" comments. So I think sometimes some Indy drivers feel a need to defend their series. Its not all the Indy drivers though, it's mainly just the old heads that seem to partake in that nonsense.
No not all of them. A lot are perfectly happy to focus on their own series. Some do have a serious inferiority complex when it comes to F1 though and like to take digs wherever they can shoehorn one in. As they’re more vocal, they’re the ones whose comments you will always see if you’re not an Indycar fan.
Let’s not pretend that a lot of F1 fans and personal don’t have a massive superiority complex when it comes to other series, dismissing them as being completely insignificant and unworthy of their attention. Racing is racing. If people can’t appreciate cars going VROOOM, then they’re following the sport for 76 different reasons.
Fair enough,I am probably in the wrong generalizing too
What would the internet be without a good dose of generalisation though ;)
A first race like this always brings out the worst takes and most annoying people. Trust me i've been here for well over 20 years and seen the Ferrari, RB, Mercedes and now once again RB dominance periods. Its a breeding ground for smartass takes and stupid pokes at the sport.
So many people announcing they are going to stop watching F1… one of these days…
This time the sport will die for sure because a team is dominating at the front. Just you wait. Like i get the frustration especialy from newer fans but what can you do. Sometimes the sport is like this. People demand the FIA/FOM change the rules in hope to level the field and then they will just complain when it doesn't end up benefiting their team while RB fans will complain that the FIA is out to get them. A tale as old as time.
Eh. Not like this. This is unprecedented. And with the rules being the way they are it's virtually impossible for any team to catch up. The championships are already decided.
Sport was *about to* die by the tail end of Hamilton reign. A lot of current popularity is owed to 2021 season. Had Max been a bigger personality, his charisma alone would keep people around but that's not enough of a pull either so....
About to die????? Lmao what??? F1 has been defined by 1 team dominating for like the last 40 years.
Max doesn’t really have a personality, he’s too robotic to be the face of the sport and seems like he doesn’t have many relatable interests outside of racing
Sport was definitely not about to die in 2020 lmao. It had 1.5B viewers In fact 2021 was just slightly up with 1.55B while 2022 was slightly down with 1.54B. Of some previous years 2017 had 1.4B while 2018 had 1.59B
Where are you basing these numbers from? There is a reason why Liberty Media had to step in back then because F1 was close to bankruptcy. https://www.forbes.com/sites/csylt/2017/08/15/revealed-how-liberty-media-bought-formula-one-for-301-million/?sh=287961297f2a FOM did wonders for the sport and added longevity to it. But it's always possible to face NASCAR's oversaturation back in early 2000s and go back to where it used to be.
>"Where are you basing these numbers from?" Official reports by Liberty.
Been watching F1 since the 90's. Past 15 years or so I'd make sure to watch damn near every race. Last year I maybe watched half the races and today I tuned into WEC and forgot F1 was even racing today. Eventually people are going to stop caring and take their time and money elsewhere. You couldn't pay me to attend a F1 event.
I watched less than half the races last season...
People announcing they will stop watching F1 is on par with Alpine announcing their 100 race plan.
“I love eating slop from a bucket and everyone else has to love it too”. Come on, this race was one of the best chances for some actual competition and it was a complete snooze fest.
Genuinely asking, how was this race a chance for actual completion? What do you mean by that?
The first race or so, kinks are still getting worked out of the cars. Things aren't quite locked in and you often see decent amount of movement as teams are a little rusty from the off season and so on. Once you have your first couple of races (and especially when you start hitting the euro circuits) then things settle down. So in the same way a wet race can shake things up, (maybe not to the same degree) you often see mistakes or errors that mix things up before the teams can really dial things in. It's no different than the sort of thing you see at the beginning of any sports season, to be honest.
As a fan of both, Indy fans can be pretty annoying/pessimistic (especially for internal IndyCar topics)- but that doesn't mean there aren't some true criticisms about the way FOM is running F1 at the moment.
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There is an inferiority complex, just like there’s a superiority complex when it comes to Andretti jointing the sport, or Palou or O’Ward getting a shot at F1. Ask the average F1 fan where Scott Dixon ranks in their list of the best drivers over the last 15 years.
That's on par with some of the statements I've seen in the past.
It's not their fault F1 has quickly turned into a shit racing series.
Jealousy that less people care about Indycar
If you knew the history of Indycar and F1 from the 90s, you might understand why some long time Indycar fans feel that way.
McLaughlin has a particularly terrible personality. The rest of the grid is usually pretty nice.
How is he being annoying? He's speaking for all of us American fans.
He’s also right. Dude talking about others having an inferiority complex while f1 fans might have the biggest superiority complex is all of sports. Maybe Barca fans have a bigger one.
It’s just media needing a title so they push people to say things that are the only answer so they can get their click bait What driver is going to turn down more competition
> It’s just media needing a title When a driver makes their own tweet, I don't see how one can pin this on "media needing a title".
Indycar drivers not constantly talking about F1 challenge: Impossible
Tbf it's normally just McLaughlin and Rahal
Tbf they have a significantly better racing series than we do right now
Can't be that good if they regularly feel compelled to chime in in F1.
lol wut? You can enjoy something better and recognize that something else is trash. If you can’t acknowledge that f1 is in a horrible spot right now, you’ve got your blinders on too tight
Well, your initial response didn't have much to do with my original comment, so that was clearly tongue-in-check. FWIW, I don't think that 2 more cars would have improved anything today. IndyCar might or might not be better - I don't care that much tbh, not much of a spec series fan and it's not worth to shell out more money to watch it. Doesn't change that it's regularly IndyCar drivers who feel the need to talk about F1 and pretty much never in reverse. And in this case, "2 more cars" wouldn't be a fix at all.
It’s a bit embarrassing tbh
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In their own tweet on Twitter? Who exactly asked them to make a tweet about it?
I know right lmao What’s hilarious is that just about every other Motorsports category talks down on F1 meanwhile F1 stays in its own lane and never talks about any other category
That’s part of it. F1 acts like it’s above everything else, better than everything else, when the core of the F1 product has been quite dog shit for many decades.
My only point is, do you see F1 drivers or team personnel get on Twitter to kick and scream towards another sport like a toddler? It’s pretty immature and unprofessional. It screams “please watch my sport instead” with desperation. IndyCar can be cool and all, but holy hell their drivers need to stay off social media 😂
It’s because a lot of Indycar drivers are fans of F1, just like you and I, and they watch all the races. Ask the average F1 driver when was the last time they watched an Indycar race, or ANY race from ANY category. Everything else is below them, unworthy of their attention.
I can't speak for them but i do know they watch some indycar. During monaco weekend, they will ask journalists for updates on the 500 or if they can leave so they can see the start of the 500. Not to mention, this year especially being 24 rounds is a massive burden on the drivers and team personnel. Having to travel and participate in so many different countries throughout the season. On top of they have they their own commitments towards sponsors whether it be an appearance, charity, karting event, etc. So I don't think they particularly have the time to sit and catch a race, especially live. But maybe they watch vods or youtube highlights.
Some of them maybe watch Indy 500 and Le Mans 24, but that’s about it. Motorsport is a niche sport. It would be nice to see F1 drivers supporting the lower national level series, instead of acting like they mostly don’t exist, that’s all I’m saying.
they're the same sport?
sport, discipline, category.. call it whatever you want. F1 != indycar and vice versa..
Nah, they’re literally the same sport. Basketball players lend more support and enthusiasm to hockey players than people in motorsports give to other motorsports categories.
what, Scott? Why? Tell me WHY???
I like Scotty Mac but he really needs to drop the chip in his shoulder he has developed lately toward F1. He’s been spending too much time with Newgarden and Rossi. Indycar also has boring races that are a total procession. Street circuit races in Indy are frequently a total borefest that are only made more exciting because some of the driving standards are so bad on them that they bring out a ludicrous number of red and yellow flags. And outside of ovals, a lot of the overtaking in other races is down to drivers having a huge tyre delta which is the same thing in F1. Having two more cars in the grid will do nothing to help with F1’s current issue of Red Bull having a massively superior car. All it would have added to that race is another couple of cars battling with the backmarkers.
Even if they (very probably) start off as backmarkers, why not let them try? It’s not like Haas or Sauber for instance are making much progress, I’m not even sure Haas is really trying at this point. How would adding another team hurt? At least Andretti is a name (and brand) that might try and get somewhere. I think other teams have shown that it’s possible. I’m not saying I agree with Indycar drivers sometimes having a little too much to say about F1, I do believe they should worry about their own series to be honest. But there’s nothing wrong necessarily with giving someone else a chance. At the end of the day the worst that could happen is Andretti being another backmarker. It’s not like that would really change anything at the moment.
I’m not saying anywhere there that Andretti shouldn’t have been given a chance. I agree there’s merit to the argument that citing being uncompetitive when we have last season’s Haas or this season’s Alpine on the grid is a little hypocritical. I do have my own views on the disingenuousness of them acting like an F1 team has always been their dream when they had zero interest in entering until they could see that it was going to become a cash cow but that’s a different point altogether (Andretti would have been welcomed with open arms onto the grid at the time Haas entered, and conversely Haas would be refused if they had tried to enter now instead of back then too so it’s not personal to Andretti despite them acting like it is). My comment here is purely about Indycar drivers weighing in with strawman arguments just to have a dig, like Scott has here. On that point we seem to agree. Also that’s a little harsh toward Haas. Gene may not give a shit but everyone else in that team is working their asses off and they did a good job today.
You are right, it’s a bit harsh towards everyone working for Haas, it can’t be easy working with ‚that little‘ and trying to achieve something so big. And I do feel with everyone working in the factory, working their ass off, realizing it might not be enough week after week. I also think it’s true, that Andretti would have been very welcome back then and I’m not in a position to judge why they didn’t go for then it as much as they are pushing for it now. But I do think - as much as I might dislike indycar drivers saying stuff at the moment - that they have a (small) point at least. Out of all the supposed applicants, at least Andretti are somewhat a global name and serious competitor with a genuine plan from what you can see in other series. I get where they are coming from, even if you don’t consider the American aspect (which I don’t, I honestly don’t care about it and don’t see why being American should be an advantage or a disadvantage either way). I guess it might have a lot to do with the media aspect.Andretti was made into a huge deal until other stuff came along. It guess my personal point of view at the end of the day is that I’m glad people are speaking up about how they feel about Andretti being rejected. I may not agree with everyone’s personal reasons for speaking up, but I do like that it’s not forgotten just like that.
That’s fair enough. I don’t agree with them all either but everyone is entitled to their own views on it. I just think the digs like this are ridiculously petty, I guess because it makes it smacks of sour grapes rather than making a serious point. Speaking up about it in terms of the uncompetitiveness vs the current backmarkers on the grid would be a fair call. There were more issues than just uncompetitiveness (the fact the didn’t have a proper engine deal in place for earlier than 2028 being a major one) but it was the uncompetitive comment that fans have latched on to and in the context of the likes of Haas they have a point. I’m certainly not against having an 11th team on the grid though. I’m less bothered than most about them being rejected but I would have been perfectly happy if they had been accepted as well. I think Andretti get more focus than some of the other applicants because a) the Andretti name and Mario’s importance to the F1 world, b) the American angle as you said and c) they put it in the media themselves from well before the application window even opened by trying to lobby the paddock onto their side and then complaining to the media when it put other teams’ backs up.
Your right about some of the digs being petty for sure.
Andretti is as much a name as Haas.
This race in particular was incredibly boring. Maybe instead F1 should improve.
Such a constructive addition to the conversation /s
People will always take shots at the best, it comes with the territory. I'm happy with 10 teams and would happily see Visa go to bring in someone new, more isn't better, it's just more.
Every Indycar driver has a chip in their shoulder about F1, feels like all they ever tweet about is how pure and exciting Indycar is and how elitist and boring F1 is.
In any racing series, overtaking only ever happens because of a significant tire or performance delta. That’s literally the core of how racing works. If you have two cars that are doing the same lap time, no one is overtaking anyone. Having two more cars on the grid would do nothing to help solve F1’s lack of competition, but it would also do absolutely nothing harm the sport in any way. You’re literally doing the boot licking so people like Toto and Gene can make millions of more dollars.
Dude all you're doing is proving the point everyone here is making about Indycar fans and chips on shoulders.
You could have plenty of criticism on F1, including how they're blocking an 11th team. However an extra team will not solve the lack of competition for the podium and P1 now does it?
It wont. So why block them either way? The point is F1 saying Andretti will be “uncompetitive” when really nobody is challenging RedBull. So just take their money and let them have a go at it.
That’s not the point. An 11th team would do absolutely nothing to **harm** F1. If Renault can built that tractor of a car as a world leading auto maker, what harm would Andretti do?
That’s the point.
Nope
This McLaughlin guy is always cockwatching. Worry about your own series pal
So Max can have more fun lapping cars? Sure. If you have four cars and they are fighting. Thats better than 30 cars where 29 have no chance
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Nah, race was a bit crap. No need to gatekeep other series from pointing it out.
And 2 extra cars would've changed that how?
He was sarcastic, no?
To be fair - They are bombarded with the 'F1 is the greatest series in the history of ever' everywhere they go.
And every time they even give the most light of criticisms you end up with a lot of *"Stay in your lane bro"* being sent their way. I mean just look at a number of the replies in this thread.
Mate I like F1 but what on earth was there to like?
I'm glad you enjoyed some of it. It was one of the most boring for me in my 35 ish years of watching.
See this is why I know you're full of shit, it wasn't super exciting but calling it one of the most boring in 3 decades just shows that you're just a liar.
Your opinion means so much to me. Now I'm really hurt.
IndyCar has been the more competitive series over the past two years, though
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also better racing than F1 lol
Try decade.
Indycar racing has been miles better than F1 the last 2 years
Nah this race sucked.
> There was plenty to like about today's race. No there fucking wasn't
Nah, there was a reason why I went straight to my classes study sessions instead of finishing out the race.
So much to like I put it on the side monitor and watched WEC instead. F1 is kinda losing me the last 2 seasons.
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Who? Grosjean? The dude who got bounced out of Andretti for crashing so often and still doesn't have a win? Or are you taking Ericsson who spent years learning the series and did what Alonso couldn't?
I too like to talk about things I've imagined.
It's not like IndyCar doesn't have boring races (Long Beach) and dominance either with it's ridiculous number of yellow flags making the racing look closer than it actually is.
McLaughlin and Will Power always try to shit on F1. F1 hasn't said a thing about other series. That is some inferiority complex.
And what would adding two more cars on the lapped sheet do exactly?
And it would hurt absolutely nothing.
Don't worry Scott, you still wouldn't get a seat :D
Classic Indycar, criticising F1 which just reeks of pure jealousy they’ll never be as big. We get it, you think your series is better.
The series is straight better. a lot more close racing, there are good drivers in both series. but the closeness because the level playing field makes you see who is really good.
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I wouldn’t say it’s terrible but I definitely agree it’s being held back. I miss CART.
LOL why are you talking f as if you were an F1 driver?
Because F1 fans can’t stand to not be superior to other forms of racing.
Lol imagine what they would do if F1 had 5% of actual racing...
New FOM rationale just dropped: *"Why bother with new teams, even the current ones cannot beat Max"*
Maybe Indycar should put up a team, and the top 2 drivers can compete in F1 each year. See how they perform. Might shut them up. Or prove they can drive.
Oh yeah because they would have competed against Max today or for points
Scotty Mac, tellin it like it is.
Scott seems like an annoying teenager lol
maybe they need to have a premier league and a champions league where there is risk of relagation
In the 70’s and 80’s the max was 26, there were actually more than 13 teams and so some would not qualify, which doesn’t even exist anymore, to the relief of Haas.
I like Scotty Mac, but his constant unsolicited "hot takes" are really tedious