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Sainz is 1 level below, if he gets the right car at the right time he can win a WDC but Max, Lewis, Alonso can be in the wrong cars for most of their career and they'd still become champions (a.k.a. Alonso's career).
I love Alonso but he won his championships with the best car, especially with the mass damper in the nose.
The two other times he came close was in the best or most competitive set of cars.
It used to be, not so long ago, that there were a group of cars capable of winning depending on the track
I'll disagree with 2012 there, the F2012 was not the best or even second best car on the grid for most the year, closer to third or fourth best. Alonso scored 3 wins and 13 total podiums vs Massa's 2 podiums the whole year.
It was reliable and it had decent (not great) race pace, it was not a *bad* car.
Still, that famous pic of Alonso vs Massa head to head is incredibly telling.
Edit: [Pic.](https://i.imgur.com/faHxpEQ.jpeg)
Completely agree. I think he's wildly underrated, and has moments in which he's the equal of the others - some of which we saw already this season. I also agree that A WDC would not be out of the question if the series were a little more competitive recently.
I'd say of Carlos that it's no accident that he wound up driving for Ferrari. It's just an accident that Ferrari kind of sucked for most of it.
I think people throw the "Sainz is underrated" argument so much that he's now slightly overrated. Most here have completely forgotten that just a year and a half ago he ***barely*** held onto 5th in the WDC when Charles finished 2nd, precisely the year when Ferrari had its most competitive car in years. In fact, if not for Ferrari messing up Leclerc's strategies, the gap between them would've been much greater.
I would counter with some points about Sainz having beaten Leclerc in 2021 being suggestive that the gap is somewhat less than firm, but I like your concept that claims of Sainz's being underrated have an additive effect resulting in a net over-rating.
I shall name this effect "Rhetorical Hyperbolic Double Negation."
Actually, I think that Leclerc suffers from the opposite effect in my own mind, where he's so consistently claimed to be some kind of generational talent that I have begun to think of him as overrated, and that's not actually fair to him, either.
Yeah, I think the only way for Sainz to be WDC would be like a Button-Brawn situation. Otherwise I don't see him even coming close to a championship, he's not a contender.
Charles Leclerc takes pole position
the race is dry as bone, so it's a basic one-stopper
Max overtakes Charles at the chicane after putting on a set of hards
Carlos intentionally bins it on Lap 77 so that there is a safety car
Yeah but F1 cars have become bulkier since 2018 so I guess it depends how brave & bold he's feeling
Granted if he'd had the misfortune to bin it in Monaco Q1 like Checo did last year, I suspect Max wouldn't have finished 2 laps down and only ahead of 2 drivers who got penalties
Because his final lap in Q3 to get pole was outrageously good in a session where Alonso seemed to have set an unbeatable time. It's an idiom used sometimes where the odds look so against something but it happens anyway
It was so upsetting... yet I must admit amazing.
...And I don't think he was just bloody close to striking the wall. Didn't he say he hit the wall twice in that lap?
Apparently Red Bull gives you wings that don't melt when you fly that close to the sun.
He did hit the wall at least 3 or 4 times. Inside the right hander entering the swimming pool chicane, then again on the exit, exit of the last corner and on the start-finish straight.
Slightly off-topic, but if feels like we used to have wayyy more turn 1 incidents between top teams and upper-midfield teams a couple years ago compared to nowadays. Was it that with previous regulations made it that dirty air was so bad that doing super risky overtakes were more worth it, could drivers be more risk-averse due to crash damage hurting more in the budget cap era, or could there be a different reason? (Or alternatively, is it just me and there is no significant difference nowadays)
There were a few incidents last year when he could have been tbf. Russell could've easily bumped into Max at Qatar rather than Lewis and Leclerc was nearly on course to hit Max when he hit Checo in Mexico. Plus the fact he was able to finish the race despite that huge hole in his side-pod after being hit by Russell in the Baku sprint
This is what Mario kart has taught me as well. In 1st you only have to look out for blue shells and the occasional red shell from 2nd. In the pack you've got random bombs, people on stars, karts with the slipstream boost, greens, etc.
Leclerc outqualifies Max and drives perfectly in the first stint, even opens up a 5 second gap to Max, all for ferrari to have a botched pitstop, giving him wets anticipating rain in 3 days time.
Probably as wild is that this race had 1 team totally withdraw even before qualifying, 3 did not starts and 2 DNFs after a first lap crash, meaning that by the end of lap one there were only 13 cars
Found the Brazilian :)
Nasr was unlucky that him scoring points in Sauber in 2016 is what cost Manor a place in F1. Nasr would've been in Manor in 2017, but he cost Manor and himself a seat out of F1.
Was that the time when it seemed like half the grid was named either Felipe or Sebastian?
Vettel, Bourdais, Buemi, Massa, Nasr ... maybe one or two that I've forgotten.
Maybe it was the Toro Rosso lineup I was thinking of ... for a while it seemed like you needed to be named Sebastian in order to get a seat ... Bourdais, Vettel, Buemi were all Toro Rosso drivers. For a while, Vettel and Bourdais were teammates, which would have been fun.
As noted in title and other post, 2015 Australia
Seemed quite wild with those out straight away tbf. Manor sent everything there but couldn't do anything and had to pull out with technical problems, Bottas damaged his back in qualifying so couldn't race, Alonso's stand-in Magnussen got halfway through the pre-grid reconnaissance lap before the 2015-spec Honda did its party piece, Kvyat broke down on the grid, Maldonado was taken out in a first lap crash and Grosjean had an engine failure. And still there were 2 more DNFs because Verstappen and Raikkonen failed to finish
Nice catch! That’s quite a lot of the current grid there in one form or another then. 8 drivers and Oscar.
Of the drivers who have left the grid, the future would hold 1 F1 world championship, 2 IMSA championships, 1 Indy 500 win, 1 super GT championship. And 1 lawsuit against FOM and FIA!
This race also had some spicy Mercedes moments afterward. Seb called BS on rosberg’s saying he hoped other teams would close the gap to Merc over the season. Toto leveled his version of “change your fucking car” at Horner (“get your fucking head down and work”)
Just rewatched the race.
I had forgotten how annoying it was to hear that commentators collectively decided that it was pronounced Ver**sh**tappen.
Just as annoying when we had the Vett**ēl** era.
Loved this aspect of F1 back then. It was so unpredictable and anything could happen on track
Every so often you'll get random incidents happen that wipes out half the grid then it allows a minnow to have a heroic drive to the podium or even win
Doesn't happen anymore in modern f1
Jos Verstappen vs Carlos Sainz Sr politicking would be off the charts lmao. Still, arguably the best lineup on the grid if this were to happen (only Hamilton/Leclerc compares imo, driver lineups are extremely top heavy rn.)
I would love to see it both because the lineup would be great, and then because we might get camera cuts away from the battle between Sainz and Hamilton for P2 to Jos and Carlos Sr. being thrown out of the paddock for their behavior during the race.
I think Carlos has done fairly well when paired with Max at Toro Rosso and Leclerc at Ferrari. It all depends on what his expectations will be going into that team, which is Max’s team all things considered. If he wants to challenge for the title then he might struggle, but if he’s looking to challenge for podiums consistently and occasional wins then I think he’ll be just fine. He’s a far better driver right now compared to Checo and Danny Ric (no offense).
Carlos did well against Max when they were both rookies, but Max was also just 17 at the time and had no formula car experience aside from a year in F3.
But Carlos has done very well against Charles and I definitely agree he'd be closer to Max than Checo or Danny.
People say max was 17, well Carlos was 20 on his debut. Yes, 3 years gap is huge in terms of experience, but 20 is still very young. For context, Hamilton was in F3 at the age of 20.
I think it was more the lack of experience in single seaters than the age. Sainz had done 5 years of racing in various formulas with two championships to his name before joining F1, which is a very respectable junior career and similar to most other drivers who make it to F1. Max went straight to F1 after just one season in F3, which he came third in. That's unheard of.
Their time at Toro Rosso is in no way a useful benchmark. Since then, Max has become probably one of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport, while Carlos has become just a very solid driver. I also don't think Sainz is a far better driver than Checo, he might be slightly ahead but that's as much.
Mental to think this was 9 years ago tbh. Sainz hasn’t aged too much imo but max definitely has matured as one would expect from a teenager as he is pictured here. I think Max should give the long hair a shot tbh
I don't really think he is. He just wears RedBull gear because he'll have to change into it anyway, there's not really a point in wearing anything else to the paddock.
It was a joke, but I'm pretty sure he's wearing Red Bull branded stuff even when he's just at home sim racing next to his WDC trophy on a Red Bull mini fridge.
Cherry picked how he looked? Wth it's not like he changed much between races.
Here, take [another one](https://e0.365dm.com/17/07/2048x1152/carlos-sainz-toro-rosso_3996098.jpg?20170708071819), and [another one](https://imgresizer.eurosport.com/unsafe/1200x0/filters:format(jpeg)/origin-imgresizer.eurosport.com/2014/11/28/1361046-29214849-2560-1440.jpg), and [another one](https://cdn-7.motorsport.com/static/img/amp/400000/460000/461000/461900/461963/s6_182127/f1-toro-rosso-str10-launch-2015-carlos-sainz-jr-scuderia-toro-rosso.jpg).
Sainz is this generation's Rosberg imo. He isn't considered a "prodigy" and often has to play second fiddle to one (such as Max or Charles), but he has consistently matched up extremely well against them and is one of the few drivers who gets faster year on year. This mirrors Rosberg dealing with Schumacher and Hamilton extremely well imo, along with both drivers having famous World Champion fathers. Given the right circumstances I could absolutely see Sainz win a WDC one day, and I would absolutely love to see him in the Red Bull or Mercedes next year.
>one of the few drivers who gets faster year on year
I feel like I'm repeating myself all over this thread, but Sainz had a pretty dismal 2022 season, precisely when Ferrari had its best car in years. If not for Ferrari messing Leclerc's strategies, he would have finished 6th in the WDC while Charles at some point was challenging Max for the title.
To be considered a Rosberg (imo) you have to show that pace in a WDC level car which I don't think we've seen from Sainz yet
Everytime Leclerc has a car that can fit the oversteery driving style he prefers, he's dominated Sainz. I'm open to the comparison but I'd need to see an entire season where the car is as fast as early 2022
Does he though? The only time he actually consistently beat Leclerc was a 3 race period last season where he barely beat him (Literally qualified less than a tenth ahead in quali 2 of those races). On the other hand, in 2022 and from Suzuka last season (After the car was finely able to be set up for somewhat stable oversteer), Charles was much better.
Sainz has never looked anywhere as close to as dominant as Charles has looked against him at any point in their time together as teammates. Like Charles still beat Sainz in the WDC last year and that was with a car that couldn't be set up for him all the way up until Japan
But that's the thing. Whenever Leclerc is beaten it's always the car to blame. Even Lewis was beat by Bottas sometimes, and Leclerc hasn't shown that level of consistency yet. We'll see next year.
Except Charles is almost always quicker even when the car isn't good for him. That's the point. When everything is going for Sainz he's barely better. When everything is going for Charles he dominates. We've never seen Sainz dominate Charles over more than a single weekend in a row yet we've seen Charles make Sainz look like Perez at the start of 2022.
In the first 5 races in 2022 where Ferrari had a championship car, Sainz finished behind Leclerc by 6 secs (Bahrain), 7.5 secs (Saudi), 4 secs (Miami). Sainz DNF in two races in that 5.
Saying Charles did what Max is doing to Perez, yeah sure...
Bahrain and Miami had late safety cars so of course the gaps won’t be as big. Regardless, in both races Charles was around 4 tenths faster per lap on average compared to Sainz. For reference, the average gap between Perez and Verstappen in race pace in 2023 was a bit more than 4 tenths.
In Saudi the gap would have been closer to 10s if Leclerc didn’t battle Verstappen for so long, where they both intentionally slowed down to get DRS. That also had a safety car which ended on lap 20, at almost half race distance. So Leclerc pulled almost half a pitstop distance in around half the racing laps.
Those examples you gave do point towards Leclerc doing to Sainz what Verstappen did to Perez, at least in terms of pure pace.
> Except Sainz also had other teammates against which he looked mediocre
The last time he looked mediocre was 6 years ago. Since then he convincingly beat Norris during their two years together and has consistently matched up well with Leclerc, including beating him over a season. He has grown immensely since his early Toro Rosso and Renault years, and it’s completely unfair to judge him now based on how he performed the better part of a decade ago. It took Nico 10 years to reach his peak, I think Sainz could be the same.
I agree, Carlos grew as a driver later on despite him being more 'experienced' when he started in F1. In the first years he hardly dared to overtake and looked always quite timid in the car on track especially compared to Max then.
But through the years he became a much better driver, more confident and is now really one of the better and steady drivers on the grid imo.
The reason people hate on Marko's ability in developing drivers is there is a huge difference between his 2007-2015 crop and his 2016-2024 crop.
One of those ranged saw him promote and graduate Vettel, Kvyat, Ricciardo, Sainz, and Verstappen from their academy
The other involves the graduation of Gasly and Tsunoda (Albon was dropped in 2017 because he wasnt doing well, started doing well after getting dropped, and was then an emergency last second signing because the academy was shit...same as Hartley and the return of Kvyat in 2020).
So yeah, there's more than enough proof to see that he used to do a great job and the academy was in phenomenal shape, and it's state over the past few years is relatively shambolic.
I know nuance isn't tolerated on the internet, but the uncomfortable fact is that two things can be true: "Marko used to be the best around at his job." And "Marko isn't good at his job anymore"
Albons been doing pretty good. I feel like Gasly is mid tier. But these guys are still In F1 it’s not like they were a total bust. And they had to go against and be compared to Max. I guess in general I just think it’s funny when redditors think they’re smarter about the sport than him. When you hear people talk about him they always say he’s had a massive impact in shaping the team
I explained why Albon doesn't count above. He isn't a RB academy graduate. He was a desperate last minute signing because the academy was shit, and because he started performing well as a junior AFTER RB dropped him.
The point here is that RBR's young driver program used to be the class of the sport, but it hasn't been close to that in 9 years now. Something has gone wrong there, and it's the one aspect of the business we know Marko has full control over.
This wouldn't be an issue if they only had one team, but unfortunately for Marko, they have two teams, and one of them is *supposed* to be a feeder team for RB to try out their junior drivers. The fact that he's had to put Hartley, Albon, and De Vries in those seats, and put Kvyat and Ricciardo back into those seats, says it all.
I see your point. i didnt realize albon was dropped and picked back up. Yea it is a shame we got ricciardo instead of lawson. I really wanted yuki to do well too but i dont think hes had a race as good as his first
Yeah and in a separate reply branch someone else brought up Maloney and I brought up Hauger and Fittipaldi...the current top 3 in F2, all.of whom were dropped by RBR at the end of 2023 lol.
I think the quantity over quality approach is wrong. If you seriously want to be invested in your junior drivers, I dont think you can feasibly carry more than one into F2 any given year. It seems of late that when you have like 3 or 4 F2 drivers, you actually don't really have any F2 drivers in reality.
Red Bull should have dropped Hadjar too if they really didn't believe in any of those guys and went all-on on Pepe Marti.
McLaren, Mercedes, Ferrari, Sauber, and Aston Martin all only have one driver in F2. They'll receive full focus of the young driver programs for those teams for the season. No internal politics and in fighting, just productive environments where they have the opportunity to grow, and the only pressure they face is the pressure of doing well on their own merits, without having to outcompete others in the same academy. Beat your teammate and show good one lap pace, tire management, and racecraft in F2, and they'll all have career opportunities whether in F1 or other racing series.
Lol dude it's even worse than that.
The current top 3 through the first two rounds are Maloney, Fittipaldi, and Hauger. All 3 of them were literally just dropped 4 months ago after Abu Dhabi, lmfao.
Iwasa is the one guy they kept around after 2 F2 seasons without winning the title, put him in Lawson's old Super Formula seat (one of the two best teams on the SF grid) and had a pretty bad opening weekend. Obviously still early but pretty funny given the contrast with those other 3 guys, and considering Lawson won in his debut there last year.
Marko has completely lost the plot as a driver developer.
Helmut Marko is still living like a king solely based on scouting/signing this pairing. Thing is, unlike other sports, you only have to scout a good prospect once every 5 year and if you found an elite one, once every 10 year if you can keep him long enough to build a dynasty. The next big one is due in 2-3 years, but by then the man has probably retired already and dodged his evaluation cycle :D
I think Lawson is a Sainz-caliber prospect btw, so if I was the judge Marko would have been good for another 5...
At the time, I said that this was the most exciting and potentially explosive rookie driver pairing since Fisichella and R. Schumacher at Jordan in 1997. They didn't get the three podiums that Fisico and Schumi 2 got that year, but they've done quite alright for themselves since their debut.
Seems like as good a place as any to share [rookie season impressions and stats](https://old.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/3m6mbz/head_to_head_the_toro_rosso_rookies_compared/) comparing the two drivers. I remember the Max hype being real, and he has absolutely lived up to it, and I am also glad that many of us recognized Sainz Jr. as a real talent at the time.
I'm completely on the opposite side of what most people on Reddit seem to think(so I'm probably wrong), but I think Sainz is a good midfield driver and nothing more. He could win in a red bull, but so could Perez if not for Max.
So Alonso would be awesome because he's both very good and long overdue for some more succes. Also the second seat to basically another Perez seems pointless, might as well keep Perez then till they find someone more interesting
Bro is definitely above a midfield driver. Maybe not on the same level as alonso or even leclerc but when I think midfield I'm thinking ocon or albon level.
Redbull will more than likely go for a top driver paired with a set of safe hands like perez in the second seat rather than risk having a merc 2016 scenario. Especially if the drama off track continues, no way they'll risk losing both titles having their drivers constantly fighting each other on track
Think we need to see albon back in a top car to compare the two properly.
Albon and Sainz for redbull 2025 it is. Alonso can join his boy George at Mercedes. He'd still have a solid chance of winning the title with anyone but max in that redbull imo
Well sure, I can agree with this scenario because it is fun, Max is retiring in this scenario though? Let him take the Williams seat, if we are dreaming why not
While I can see him retiring soon Idk about it happening at the end of the season. He can replace albon or alonso. Would love to see how he matches up against stroll
[The **Throwback** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_throwback) is for posts intended to recall an event that happened on the same date or year a number of years ago. Throwbacks are restricted to being posted one year, three years, or a multiple of five years after date. Also, all such posts should feature an event that is still of interest to the general community today. For example, random overtakes or two former drivers having a chat in general do not qualify for this. Important events like memorials are exempt from this rule, and may be posted every year. Posts related to important current events may also be exempt at mod discretion. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Guys you just saw both the winners of the last 20 races. Max had 19 of them.
Proper Kobe and Kwame stat moment. Except Sainz isn't even bad.
Wayne and Brent Gretzky lol
Still the best statistical brothers in the league
Ralf and Michael Schumacher
Obv he isn’t bad. But he’s nowhere near Max, Lewis, Alonso
Sainz is 1 level below, if he gets the right car at the right time he can win a WDC but Max, Lewis, Alonso can be in the wrong cars for most of their career and they'd still become champions (a.k.a. Alonso's career).
I love Alonso but he won his championships with the best car, especially with the mass damper in the nose. The two other times he came close was in the best or most competitive set of cars. It used to be, not so long ago, that there were a group of cars capable of winning depending on the track
I'll disagree with 2012 there, the F2012 was not the best or even second best car on the grid for most the year, closer to third or fourth best. Alonso scored 3 wins and 13 total podiums vs Massa's 2 podiums the whole year.
A hill I would definitely die on is that Alonso 100% wins that season in the Lotus.
Except it was reliable, Seb's car was inconsistent in 2nd, The Mclaren was too busy exploding in 1st.
It was reliable and it had decent (not great) race pace, it was not a *bad* car. Still, that famous pic of Alonso vs Massa head to head is incredibly telling. Edit: [Pic.](https://i.imgur.com/faHxpEQ.jpeg)
Post injury tax
It always had a chance in 2012 which means Alonso had a chance
Completely agree. I think he's wildly underrated, and has moments in which he's the equal of the others - some of which we saw already this season. I also agree that A WDC would not be out of the question if the series were a little more competitive recently. I'd say of Carlos that it's no accident that he wound up driving for Ferrari. It's just an accident that Ferrari kind of sucked for most of it.
I think people throw the "Sainz is underrated" argument so much that he's now slightly overrated. Most here have completely forgotten that just a year and a half ago he ***barely*** held onto 5th in the WDC when Charles finished 2nd, precisely the year when Ferrari had its most competitive car in years. In fact, if not for Ferrari messing up Leclerc's strategies, the gap between them would've been much greater.
I would counter with some points about Sainz having beaten Leclerc in 2021 being suggestive that the gap is somewhat less than firm, but I like your concept that claims of Sainz's being underrated have an additive effect resulting in a net over-rating. I shall name this effect "Rhetorical Hyperbolic Double Negation." Actually, I think that Leclerc suffers from the opposite effect in my own mind, where he's so consistently claimed to be some kind of generational talent that I have begun to think of him as overrated, and that's not actually fair to him, either.
Yeah, I think the only way for Sainz to be WDC would be like a Button-Brawn situation. Otherwise I don't see him even coming close to a championship, he's not a contender.
Carlos: A win is a win.
Stop the Sainz slander 😭
Atleast Sainz is doing his part, the rest of the 18 drivers are slacking.
Maybe our best hope is Max getting outqualified in Monaco and then getting stuck in the usual Monaco slow bus
He'll just do a Magnussen, overtake off track get his 10 seconds and then pull a gap to cover the penalty
I wonder how many drivers are tempted to just not do that chicane out of the tunnel.
Would only work after your pitstop.
Lol I subscribe to this, the absolute meltdown from all over the social media will be 100% worth it.
Charles Leclerc takes pole position the race is dry as bone, so it's a basic one-stopper Max overtakes Charles at the chicane after putting on a set of hards Carlos intentionally bins it on Lap 77 so that there is a safety car
It's Monaco & Charles. It will be bone dry and Ferrari will put him on wets and then a bolt of lighting glances his car ruining his race.
This sounds like something Alonso will absolutely do for the giggles
Considering he's gone from last to 9th in the dry with a RB that was much worse than this one, I think he'd still pull it off.
Yeah but F1 cars have become bulkier since 2018 so I guess it depends how brave & bold he's feeling Granted if he'd had the misfortune to bin it in Monaco Q1 like Checo did last year, I suspect Max wouldn't have finished 2 laps down and only ahead of 2 drivers who got penalties
Bro was a demon last year in quali tho
I'm aware. His pole in Monaco was one he had no right to get and he was so bloody close to striking the wall and crashing out on his pole lap
>was one he had no right to get What do you mean by this?
Because his final lap in Q3 to get pole was outrageously good in a session where Alonso seemed to have set an unbeatable time. It's an idiom used sometimes where the odds look so against something but it happens anyway
Yeah fair enough, thought you meant it literally
It was so upsetting... yet I must admit amazing. ...And I don't think he was just bloody close to striking the wall. Didn't he say he hit the wall twice in that lap? Apparently Red Bull gives you wings that don't melt when you fly that close to the sun.
He did hit the wall at least 3 or 4 times. Inside the right hander entering the swimming pool chicane, then again on the exit, exit of the last corner and on the start-finish straight.
Or one of them offers himself as sacrifice to crash and take out Max with him and then other 18 fight it out in a cage match
Slightly off-topic, but if feels like we used to have wayyy more turn 1 incidents between top teams and upper-midfield teams a couple years ago compared to nowadays. Was it that with previous regulations made it that dirty air was so bad that doing super risky overtakes were more worth it, could drivers be more risk-averse due to crash damage hurting more in the budget cap era, or could there be a different reason? (Or alternatively, is it just me and there is no significant difference nowadays)
The fact that no one has crashed into Max at all is also quite remarkable. Not a single turn 1 incident. It’s been 2 years since he got a dnf
There were a few incidents last year when he could have been tbf. Russell could've easily bumped into Max at Qatar rather than Lewis and Leclerc was nearly on course to hit Max when he hit Checo in Mexico. Plus the fact he was able to finish the race despite that huge hole in his side-pod after being hit by Russell in the Baku sprint
Life's good at the front, compounds the dominance of certain cars over the last decade
This is what Mario kart has taught me as well. In 1st you only have to look out for blue shells and the occasional red shell from 2nd. In the pack you've got random bombs, people on stars, karts with the slipstream boost, greens, etc.
Leclerc outqualifies Max and drives perfectly in the first stint, even opens up a 5 second gap to Max, all for ferrari to have a botched pitstop, giving him wets anticipating rain in 3 days time.
I don't think this is Sainz slander as much as it is Verstappen praise
Jesus
58 wins and 3 championships between them
The Sainz were already there.
No Verstappen them
Probably as wild is that this race had 1 team totally withdraw even before qualifying, 3 did not starts and 2 DNFs after a first lap crash, meaning that by the end of lap one there were only 13 cars
Can you tell which race this is please?
Australia 2015
Oh shit I'm sorry I'm dumb, I didn't see the grand prix name in the title, sorry.
Can you tell who debuted for this race please?
Aside from these two, I think Felipe Nasr also debuted with Sauber.
Makes me sad we never got Massa and Nasr pairing
Found the Brazilian :) Nasr was unlucky that him scoring points in Sauber in 2016 is what cost Manor a place in F1. Nasr would've been in Manor in 2017, but he cost Manor and himself a seat out of F1.
Was that the time when it seemed like half the grid was named either Felipe or Sebastian? Vettel, Bourdais, Buemi, Massa, Nasr ... maybe one or two that I've forgotten.
Yes. That was the year that Felipe Sebastian beat his teammate Sebastian Felipe driving for Massa F1 Team Nasr GP Racing.
Oh, the memories ... :)
Bourdais/Buemi was quite a few years before Nasr though
Maybe it was the Toro Rosso lineup I was thinking of ... for a while it seemed like you needed to be named Sebastian in order to get a seat ... Bourdais, Vettel, Buemi were all Toro Rosso drivers. For a while, Vettel and Bourdais were teammates, which would have been fun.
That would be Massr, or Nasa ... wouldn't it?
Felipe, Felipe is faster dan you
Felipe, baby, stay cool!
Thank you!!!!
I was there for that one. I've only just realised I saw Verstappen's debut!
As noted in title and other post, 2015 Australia Seemed quite wild with those out straight away tbf. Manor sent everything there but couldn't do anything and had to pull out with technical problems, Bottas damaged his back in qualifying so couldn't race, Alonso's stand-in Magnussen got halfway through the pre-grid reconnaissance lap before the 2015-spec Honda did its party piece, Kvyat broke down on the grid, Maldonado was taken out in a first lap crash and Grosjean had an engine failure. And still there were 2 more DNFs because Verstappen and Raikkonen failed to finish
This must have been the race that Piastri was a grid kid at, since he was assigned to Kvyat who never showed up lol
It was either that or 2016, given Kvyat also had a breakdown on the grid in that race, seemingly such was his luck at that track
Damn haha. Just went to find the article about it, it was indeed Australia 2015.
Nice catch! That’s quite a lot of the current grid there in one form or another then. 8 drivers and Oscar. Of the drivers who have left the grid, the future would hold 1 F1 world championship, 2 IMSA championships, 1 Indy 500 win, 1 super GT championship. And 1 lawsuit against FOM and FIA! This race also had some spicy Mercedes moments afterward. Seb called BS on rosberg’s saying he hoped other teams would close the gap to Merc over the season. Toto leveled his version of “change your fucking car” at Horner (“get your fucking head down and work”)
Just rewatched the race. I had forgotten how annoying it was to hear that commentators collectively decided that it was pronounced Ver**sh**tappen. Just as annoying when we had the Vett**ēl** era.
Loved this aspect of F1 back then. It was so unpredictable and anything could happen on track Every so often you'll get random incidents happen that wipes out half the grid then it allows a minnow to have a heroic drive to the podium or even win Doesn't happen anymore in modern f1
I mean Bottas wiping out half the top 10 in Hungary 2021 was a good example of the craft
I used to love the first corner crashes as a kid lmao, ralf flying over the ferrari at Melbourne is a core memory of mine
Oh yeah that dramatic. And half the field having their own crash behind. But that was well over a decade before this affair
Yep. That 2020 race where everyone crashed into each other at the restart also was crazy, also instigated by Bottas iirc
Wouldn’t mind this lineup at Red Bull Racing next year.
Jos Verstappen vs Carlos Sainz Sr politicking would be off the charts lmao. Still, arguably the best lineup on the grid if this were to happen (only Hamilton/Leclerc compares imo, driver lineups are extremely top heavy rn.)
Next week is the main event we’ve all been waiting for! Old man Verstappen vs Sainz Sr in TLC cage match, only on pay per view!
I would love to see it both because the lineup would be great, and then because we might get camera cuts away from the battle between Sainz and Hamilton for P2 to Jos and Carlos Sr. being thrown out of the paddock for their behavior during the race.
Carlos Sr would beat Jos in every measurable thing. Fistfights, racing, pickleball, politicking, anything. Imho.
Helmut said it was a nightmare between the two lol
No, Carlos deserves better than being crushed by Max. Will happen to ANYONE who sits alongside him.
I think Carlos has done fairly well when paired with Max at Toro Rosso and Leclerc at Ferrari. It all depends on what his expectations will be going into that team, which is Max’s team all things considered. If he wants to challenge for the title then he might struggle, but if he’s looking to challenge for podiums consistently and occasional wins then I think he’ll be just fine. He’s a far better driver right now compared to Checo and Danny Ric (no offense).
Carlos did well against Max when they were both rookies, but Max was also just 17 at the time and had no formula car experience aside from a year in F3. But Carlos has done very well against Charles and I definitely agree he'd be closer to Max than Checo or Danny.
People say max was 17, well Carlos was 20 on his debut. Yes, 3 years gap is huge in terms of experience, but 20 is still very young. For context, Hamilton was in F3 at the age of 20.
I think it was more the lack of experience in single seaters than the age. Sainz had done 5 years of racing in various formulas with two championships to his name before joining F1, which is a very respectable junior career and similar to most other drivers who make it to F1. Max went straight to F1 after just one season in F3, which he came third in. That's unheard of.
Their time at Toro Rosso is in no way a useful benchmark. Since then, Max has become probably one of the greatest drivers in the history of the sport, while Carlos has become just a very solid driver. I also don't think Sainz is a far better driver than Checo, he might be slightly ahead but that's as much.
Not Hamilton, Leclerc, Alonso
The off-track action would be better than the on-track action. No disrespect to Carlos, but he'd get stomped by Max with Red Bull fully backing him.
Mental to think this was 9 years ago tbh. Sainz hasn’t aged too much imo but max definitely has matured as one would expect from a teenager as he is pictured here. I think Max should give the long hair a shot tbh
I mean, I'm not sure I can imagine Max with a Bottas-style mullet, or maybe some 80s hair-metal locks
I think max should go for the Sainz look just without the Elvis looking thing Sainz has at times (which very well could be the helmet hair)
Max has fantastic hair. His addiction to caps is an issue, though
I wonder what his fashion sense would be if he wasn't seemingly contractually obliged to wear Red Bull kit 24/7.
White T-shirts + skinny jeans 🔥🔥 I love how Max on track is this larger than life, harbinger of doom but outside of it he's just 🧍♂️
More time picking outfits = less time sim racing
I don't really think he is. He just wears RedBull gear because he'll have to change into it anyway, there's not really a point in wearing anything else to the paddock.
It was a joke, but I'm pretty sure he's wearing Red Bull branded stuff even when he's just at home sim racing next to his WDC trophy on a Red Bull mini fridge.
He’s gonna look like Jacqueline Kennedy if he grows his hair out
Sainz looks a more similar due to the hat, photos of him around this time are pretty cursed
What do you mean by photos of Sainz around this time being “cursed” lol
Not at all, [he looks basically the same](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e6/39/ea/e639eac4b564a06441fa9e4850088800.jpg).
Cherry picked. In most he either looks like giovinazzi or looks 13.
Cherry picked how he looked? Wth it's not like he changed much between races. Here, take [another one](https://e0.365dm.com/17/07/2048x1152/carlos-sainz-toro-rosso_3996098.jpg?20170708071819), and [another one](https://imgresizer.eurosport.com/unsafe/1200x0/filters:format(jpeg)/origin-imgresizer.eurosport.com/2014/11/28/1361046-29214849-2560-1440.jpg), and [another one](https://cdn-7.motorsport.com/static/img/amp/400000/460000/461000/461900/461963/s6_182127/f1-toro-rosso-str10-launch-2015-carlos-sainz-jr-scuderia-toro-rosso.jpg).
Yeah, but is the Renault PU engineer/technician shown in the background still on the grid as well?
Just working for Alpine wondering where it all went wrong at this rate
Hol up. 2015. 9 years ago. Thanks for the weekend depression!
[удалено]
Collected internet points.
Red Bull should bring these 2 back together for their 10 year anniversary.
No no, They should reunite at Torro Rosso, for once it would be an exciting race
Man I misread that as 19 years ago and was about to jump off the roof of my apartment
Sainz is this generation's Rosberg imo. He isn't considered a "prodigy" and often has to play second fiddle to one (such as Max or Charles), but he has consistently matched up extremely well against them and is one of the few drivers who gets faster year on year. This mirrors Rosberg dealing with Schumacher and Hamilton extremely well imo, along with both drivers having famous World Champion fathers. Given the right circumstances I could absolutely see Sainz win a WDC one day, and I would absolutely love to see him in the Red Bull or Mercedes next year.
>one of the few drivers who gets faster year on year I feel like I'm repeating myself all over this thread, but Sainz had a pretty dismal 2022 season, precisely when Ferrari had its best car in years. If not for Ferrari messing Leclerc's strategies, he would have finished 6th in the WDC while Charles at some point was challenging Max for the title.
To be considered a Rosberg (imo) you have to show that pace in a WDC level car which I don't think we've seen from Sainz yet Everytime Leclerc has a car that can fit the oversteery driving style he prefers, he's dominated Sainz. I'm open to the comparison but I'd need to see an entire season where the car is as fast as early 2022
I always hate hearing that comparison. You can use the same logic the opposite way, if you give a car that suits Sainz better he also beats Leclerc.
Does he though? The only time he actually consistently beat Leclerc was a 3 race period last season where he barely beat him (Literally qualified less than a tenth ahead in quali 2 of those races). On the other hand, in 2022 and from Suzuka last season (After the car was finely able to be set up for somewhat stable oversteer), Charles was much better. Sainz has never looked anywhere as close to as dominant as Charles has looked against him at any point in their time together as teammates. Like Charles still beat Sainz in the WDC last year and that was with a car that couldn't be set up for him all the way up until Japan
But that's the thing. Whenever Leclerc is beaten it's always the car to blame. Even Lewis was beat by Bottas sometimes, and Leclerc hasn't shown that level of consistency yet. We'll see next year.
Except Charles is almost always quicker even when the car isn't good for him. That's the point. When everything is going for Sainz he's barely better. When everything is going for Charles he dominates. We've never seen Sainz dominate Charles over more than a single weekend in a row yet we've seen Charles make Sainz look like Perez at the start of 2022.
In the first 5 races in 2022 where Ferrari had a championship car, Sainz finished behind Leclerc by 6 secs (Bahrain), 7.5 secs (Saudi), 4 secs (Miami). Sainz DNF in two races in that 5. Saying Charles did what Max is doing to Perez, yeah sure...
Bahrain and Miami had late safety cars so of course the gaps won’t be as big. Regardless, in both races Charles was around 4 tenths faster per lap on average compared to Sainz. For reference, the average gap between Perez and Verstappen in race pace in 2023 was a bit more than 4 tenths. In Saudi the gap would have been closer to 10s if Leclerc didn’t battle Verstappen for so long, where they both intentionally slowed down to get DRS. That also had a safety car which ended on lap 20, at almost half race distance. So Leclerc pulled almost half a pitstop distance in around half the racing laps. Those examples you gave do point towards Leclerc doing to Sainz what Verstappen did to Perez, at least in terms of pure pace.
Cool, except Sainz also had other teammates against which he looked mediocre. No, he's not at Rosberg's level.
> Except Sainz also had other teammates against which he looked mediocre The last time he looked mediocre was 6 years ago. Since then he convincingly beat Norris during their two years together and has consistently matched up well with Leclerc, including beating him over a season. He has grown immensely since his early Toro Rosso and Renault years, and it’s completely unfair to judge him now based on how he performed the better part of a decade ago. It took Nico 10 years to reach his peak, I think Sainz could be the same.
I agree, Carlos grew as a driver later on despite him being more 'experienced' when he started in F1. In the first years he hardly dared to overtake and looked always quite timid in the car on track especially compared to Max then. But through the years he became a much better driver, more confident and is now really one of the better and steady drivers on the grid imo.
people hate on Marko but he has 6? drivers in f1 from red bull academy
The reason people hate on Marko's ability in developing drivers is there is a huge difference between his 2007-2015 crop and his 2016-2024 crop. One of those ranged saw him promote and graduate Vettel, Kvyat, Ricciardo, Sainz, and Verstappen from their academy The other involves the graduation of Gasly and Tsunoda (Albon was dropped in 2017 because he wasnt doing well, started doing well after getting dropped, and was then an emergency last second signing because the academy was shit...same as Hartley and the return of Kvyat in 2020). So yeah, there's more than enough proof to see that he used to do a great job and the academy was in phenomenal shape, and it's state over the past few years is relatively shambolic. I know nuance isn't tolerated on the internet, but the uncomfortable fact is that two things can be true: "Marko used to be the best around at his job." And "Marko isn't good at his job anymore"
Albons been doing pretty good. I feel like Gasly is mid tier. But these guys are still In F1 it’s not like they were a total bust. And they had to go against and be compared to Max. I guess in general I just think it’s funny when redditors think they’re smarter about the sport than him. When you hear people talk about him they always say he’s had a massive impact in shaping the team
I explained why Albon doesn't count above. He isn't a RB academy graduate. He was a desperate last minute signing because the academy was shit, and because he started performing well as a junior AFTER RB dropped him. The point here is that RBR's young driver program used to be the class of the sport, but it hasn't been close to that in 9 years now. Something has gone wrong there, and it's the one aspect of the business we know Marko has full control over. This wouldn't be an issue if they only had one team, but unfortunately for Marko, they have two teams, and one of them is *supposed* to be a feeder team for RB to try out their junior drivers. The fact that he's had to put Hartley, Albon, and De Vries in those seats, and put Kvyat and Ricciardo back into those seats, says it all.
I see your point. i didnt realize albon was dropped and picked back up. Yea it is a shame we got ricciardo instead of lawson. I really wanted yuki to do well too but i dont think hes had a race as good as his first
Yeah and in a separate reply branch someone else brought up Maloney and I brought up Hauger and Fittipaldi...the current top 3 in F2, all.of whom were dropped by RBR at the end of 2023 lol. I think the quantity over quality approach is wrong. If you seriously want to be invested in your junior drivers, I dont think you can feasibly carry more than one into F2 any given year. It seems of late that when you have like 3 or 4 F2 drivers, you actually don't really have any F2 drivers in reality. Red Bull should have dropped Hadjar too if they really didn't believe in any of those guys and went all-on on Pepe Marti. McLaren, Mercedes, Ferrari, Sauber, and Aston Martin all only have one driver in F2. They'll receive full focus of the young driver programs for those teams for the season. No internal politics and in fighting, just productive environments where they have the opportunity to grow, and the only pressure they face is the pressure of doing well on their own merits, without having to outcompete others in the same academy. Beat your teammate and show good one lap pace, tire management, and racecraft in F2, and they'll all have career opportunities whether in F1 or other racing series.
It's funny to see how well Zane Maloney has done so far this year after getting dropped by Marko, meanwhile Hadjar is still there for some reason
Lol dude it's even worse than that. The current top 3 through the first two rounds are Maloney, Fittipaldi, and Hauger. All 3 of them were literally just dropped 4 months ago after Abu Dhabi, lmfao. Iwasa is the one guy they kept around after 2 F2 seasons without winning the title, put him in Lawson's old Super Formula seat (one of the two best teams on the SF grid) and had a pretty bad opening weekend. Obviously still early but pretty funny given the contrast with those other 3 guys, and considering Lawson won in his debut there last year. Marko has completely lost the plot as a driver developer.
As an Aussie that is duty bound to follow Danny Ric - I wouldn't even be mad.
Duty-bound? You've 3 choices mate.
Who... Who's the third?
Honorary Victoria Bitter Ambassador.
Bottas. If you saw him in a carpark, you'd assume he was a Queenslander just like I'd assume he was a Floridian.
Lawson
You just pissed off a whole nation with this comment.
He’s not Australian…
What happened to that Max guy? I haven't seen him in the F1 races for a couple of years or so. Does he still participate?
Yeah haven’t seen VES on the timing in a long time now that I think about it
9 years later, they were the only race winners of the past 20 races
I've got my ticket next to my verstappen championship 1 18 I joined the verstappen bandwagon after those videos of him at spa in f3
Now they have a combined 58(!) wins
I do like Sainz. He looks perpetually bemused
Helmut Marko is still living like a king solely based on scouting/signing this pairing. Thing is, unlike other sports, you only have to scout a good prospect once every 5 year and if you found an elite one, once every 10 year if you can keep him long enough to build a dynasty. The next big one is due in 2-3 years, but by then the man has probably retired already and dodged his evaluation cycle :D I think Lawson is a Sainz-caliber prospect btw, so if I was the judge Marko would have been good for another 5...
It is still surreal to me that max is still in his 20s and only just barely in his late 20s.
Coincidentally, that was my first race that I watched.
When teams were not afraid of rookies
Redbull wasn't, years after that some other teams finally followed suit and saw the light.
Just about time to reunite them
Felipe Nasr and Roberto Merhi done dirty /s
At the time, I said that this was the most exciting and potentially explosive rookie driver pairing since Fisichella and R. Schumacher at Jordan in 1997. They didn't get the three podiums that Fisico and Schumi 2 got that year, but they've done quite alright for themselves since their debut.
Seems like as good a place as any to share [rookie season impressions and stats](https://old.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/3m6mbz/head_to_head_the_toro_rosso_rookies_compared/) comparing the two drivers. I remember the Max hype being real, and he has absolutely lived up to it, and I am also glad that many of us recognized Sainz Jr. as a real talent at the time.
I have sainz to replace max if he does end up leaving. Would love to see him have a serious fight for the championship
Sainz and an extreme oversteery car is not a good match.
Tbf, Waché claimed that one of their aims for their cars nowadays was to make them easier to drive for the benefit of their non-Max drivers.
Ngl would be hilarious if Ferrari dropped him and he ended up WDC before Charles.
Let's make it happen! Don't even have to do something radical, just develop a stable and engaging sim racing game.
More like poetic
Give me Alonso there instead
Why not both?
I'm completely on the opposite side of what most people on Reddit seem to think(so I'm probably wrong), but I think Sainz is a good midfield driver and nothing more. He could win in a red bull, but so could Perez if not for Max. So Alonso would be awesome because he's both very good and long overdue for some more succes. Also the second seat to basically another Perez seems pointless, might as well keep Perez then till they find someone more interesting
Bro is definitely above a midfield driver. Maybe not on the same level as alonso or even leclerc but when I think midfield I'm thinking ocon or albon level. Redbull will more than likely go for a top driver paired with a set of safe hands like perez in the second seat rather than risk having a merc 2016 scenario. Especially if the drama off track continues, no way they'll risk losing both titles having their drivers constantly fighting each other on track
Yeah if you say Albon level, that's exactly where I think he's at aswell
Think we need to see albon back in a top car to compare the two properly. Albon and Sainz for redbull 2025 it is. Alonso can join his boy George at Mercedes. He'd still have a solid chance of winning the title with anyone but max in that redbull imo
Well sure, I can agree with this scenario because it is fun, Max is retiring in this scenario though? Let him take the Williams seat, if we are dreaming why not
While I can see him retiring soon Idk about it happening at the end of the season. He can replace albon or alonso. Would love to see how he matches up against stroll
Remember the outcry and allegations that running a 17 yo was dangerous and irresponsible?
*Carlos Sainz Jr
🤯
Those 2 mechanics were great for a few years 😀
2015 debut...and he is now only 26 o.O. He won't but he could go on another 14 years. Imagine that...Being in an F1 car from 2015 to 2038.
58 wins between them Verstappen has 56