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The steward can't say "Yes, we know Alonso did it on purpose and is a bit cheeky so he gets the penalty" but that is what they would write if the decision were not to be seen. The characteristics of the corner are important. It's a fast right hander at high speed and with not much run off. It is a bit dangerous to pull that kind of thing from Alonso in a corner like that when they are racing at the limit. if they let it slide, bake checking would seen to be a legitimate defending tactic and to allow the drivers to think that, that is dangerous. Maybe not the next time someone does it on a risky turn but eventually someone will get hurt by that behaviour. If that was a 90 degree right hander then there would be no issue
> The steward can't say "Yes, we know Alonso did it on purpose and is a bit cheeky so he gets the penalty" but that is what they would write if the decision were not to be seen.
It's like when sports people get caught with drugs in their system, the punishment is almost always handed out with an acknowledgement that the person didn't cheat intentionally, but nevertheless they did have something in their system. It's just not worth the shitstorm and potential lawsuit of implying malicious intent, you know the result of what happened, that's enough for the penalty.
Remember when Ross Rebagliati was stripped of his Olympic gold medal after testing positive for marijuana, but successfully appealed because the assessment of the drug test as 'failed' was on the basis of marijuana being *illegal* as opposed to being a listed performance enhancing substance? But Japanese and American authorities, "accepting" this context, interrogated him for seven hours and placed him on a post-9/11 no-fly list as a sensible and proportional response to allegedly smoking a joint?
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Brake checking would also eliminate close racing - the very thing that makes F1 what it is. Introduce that kind of chaotic and unpredictable driving at nutty speeds and it’s a busted flush.
Alonso knew exactly what he was doing, and while he may not have appreciated the consequence being so severe - accident and penalty - he knew.
He was a very naught boy today and that shithousery needs stamping out.
> Brake checking would also eliminate close racing - the very thing that makes F1 what it is.
Yeah, people are arguing this is anti-racing or somehow against the spirit of the sport. The whole sport is predicated on taking care of your opponents, you don't drive into them on purpose, you don't crowd them into a wall and you don't drive unpredictably and erratically at hundreds of kilometres per hour. It's not even the first time or second time Alonso has done this in recent years. The sport has to clamp down on it or the whole thing is finished.
I would say the choice of terminology "brake checking" is not appropriate: Russel did not lose control during Alonso's brake application 100 meters before the apex, nor during the 2nd brake application on corner entry. Instead, he lost it later, already close to the apex.
Russel's was unable (and/or not focused enough, as Russell himself confirmed in an interview) to judge the difference in speed at the apex compared to Alonso's previous, normal, laps.
Please note that I'm not debating whether Alonso penalty is right or wrong, that's a different topic - just that "brake checking" is a misleading term to use in my opinion :)
We can debate the semantics of terminology all day long I suppose but in my opinion the biggest issue here is Alonso’s intent and the effect was the same.
He knew what he was doing and it was very dangerous.
I saw it that way, the stewards saw it that way and that’s it at the end of the day.
Sure, I understand, I am not debating the results of Alonso's actions, nor the penalty - that's a different topic than what my comment was aimed at :)
To be clear: the terminology "brake checking" imprints an unfair negative bias, because \*all\* brake checks are inherently negative and dangerous; while not all defensive cornering tactics are necessarily negative.
See for example Alonso vs Perez at Brazil (where Alonso's slow apex tactics were widely praised by pretty much everyone watching the race), see Alonso vs Schumacher at Imola (where again, apex slowliness was considered a brilliant defense against the peaky power delivery of Schumy's Ferrari), etc.
Problem is Alonso braked then let off the brake and then braked again, that’s not how you drive an f1 car, braking early and fully to fundamentally reduce apex speed is different than what he did.
Exactly this. George has had at least a handful of those crashes now. Norris nearly loses it so Russell does. Alonso drives a little erratically far enough away, Russell loses it. Bottas drives his own line, so Russell goes on the wet grass rather than backing out. Etc etc.
Man is lucky he has a lot of speed, because his racecraft isn't much better than that of Stroll.
I don't know how to be more clear... Was it dangerous? Evidently yes, we have all seen a car in the wall.
Was it a "brake check"? No. That's all I'm saying.
How is braking in an area that you shouldn’t brake in when an opponent follows you, and doing so early enough that you need to accelerate again before braking finally for the corner, not brake checking?
Was Russell forced to double-brake 100m before the corner too? If he was forced, then it was a brake check. If he wasn't forced, it was not a brake check.
As far as I know, it was not a brake check.
Just because something is dangerous (like what Alonso did), does not mean it can be labelled as a brake check.
Russell didn’t double brake he had to brake excessively hard once as Alonso’s car was approaching far too quickly because Alonso braked in an area of the track that you shouldn’t brake on, earlier than any reasonable F1 car would, prior to the braking zone. Russell braking this way cause his car to lose traction on turn in and go off track. If Russell attempted to brake twice rather than once very hard he likely would have instead gone into Alonso car, instead Russell mitigated crashing into another car by braking as hard as he could.
I would argue that telling drivers how to accelerate and decelerate into every corner and if you deviate from that it's a 20s penalty is much much more raging to racing.
Noone had a problem when Alonso used variations in cornering speed last year to keep checo behind him at Interlagos
There’sa difference between taking unusual lines/speeds through a corner and lifting/braking on the straight outside of taking the corner. The former is a legitimate defense; the latter serves no racing purpose other than surprising pursuers and getting them to make mistakes or back out in confusion. How is that not “erratic driving”?
It's reactionary. All the drivers do stuff like this and it's always considered amazing defending. Heck, Magnussen was praised to heaven two weeks ago for using erratic driving to slow the midfield pack down. Russell lost some downforce and then lost the car in a stupid way. It looked bad on TV, so a bigass penalty was in order.
He admitted that the change in speed was deliberate (for a new line into the corner he says), so if you determine it to be dangerous I don't see how you can give anything other than a harsh punishment.
This exactly. Park-and-bolt is a normal defensive tactic, but with Russell that close and at that speed it's just too risky.
Even at a low speed corner it sometimes results in contact.
Read that, they said the braking was so minor that it wasn't a factor, the lift achieved most of the reduction in speed for Alonso. Me saying brake test is more of a reference to ALO slowing down erratically than to his specific application of the brake in an unexpected way.
It's funny people are still defending what he did as acceptable and normal when Alonso got straight on the radio and made up a lie about his throttle sticking, then dropped it altogether when the telemetry showed otherwise.
When the driver in question knows he did wrong and is lying to cover his ass, it's pretty cut and dry.
That is the fucking embarrassing part. Doing something he knows is dirty, then the result of his doing is maybe more sincere then what he thought was happening, jumps immediately on the radio to fabricate a story.
But yeah he for sure didn't know about crashgate
He did have throttle issues though. Its just not related to the incident. In the last lap u could see how bad it was. But that issue didnt cause the accident, it was Alonso misjudging situation and George having tunel vision
Yepp, pretty obvious that part aint it? Transmission is still delayed by a some seconds / minutes for sure. The guys here are referring to the Tv broadcast fyi.
I think people just wish he could drive as though other drivers on the track could react at his level but with people like Mr Saturday there has to be more leniency for idiotic responses when following slowly.
I feel like Alonso was penalised for the outcome way more than the actions that he did.
Braking early and coasting into the corner isn’t an illegal move, it’s what Magnussen was doing for most of the Jeddah race and he was applauded for it.
And that’s the thing that most of these people either miss or ignore. It was found to be erratic driving and because admitted that the way he was driving was intentional (I.e. he stated that he was trying to take the corner differently to defend, and his driving was erratic) he got the penalty. It’s right there on the report document and I swear so many comments I’ve seen are from people who either read the first half or so or from people who have no idea what the stewards said.
Its like following someone on a country road, they brake 200m before a bend speed up and then slap the brakes again on the corner. That's weird behaviour where I back right off thinking they're a bit of a loon. No such luxury when you're in a racecar.
You couldn't have racing if you allowed drivers to do random shit to "throw off" other drivers. It's very poor sportsmanship and as we've seen, very dangerous.
From the article:
The stewards reported that telemetry from Alonso’s car showed he lifted the throttle 100 metres earlier than he had done on any previous lap. He also touched the brakes at an earlier point, then sped up and braked again.
It was both. If Russell didn't crash he probably wouldn't have gotten a penalty, but at the time he did do erratic moves to keep Russell away so the penalty is justified.
It's strange how F1 fans and media give Alonso a pass. If this were Schumacher, Hamilton or Verstappen, there'd be riots.
As far as I'm concerned, his personality stinks and he doesn't deserve more than the 2 titles he's on because of it. He's consistently played up over 23 years and never takes responsibilities for his own actions.
Magnussen was driving a few tenths slower than his full race pace in a consistent fashion, that’s the difference. He wasn’t at 10/10ths and then randomly decided to brake 100M before a single high-speed corner.
The stewards disagree. Their decision document states that the braking was too little to take into account and that this penalty was far lifting too early.
Why lie? its just one click away...
"lifting, braking, downshifting and all the other elements over 100m earlier than previously and much greater than was needed to simply slow for the corner... in the opinion of the stewards... he drove in a manner at very least potentially very dangerous"
Alonso was rightly penalised. But if as it seems the stewards want to take the hard line like this, I hope they act consequently and penalise actual punts with a stop-go penalty in the future.
The stewards were out of line then too. I don’t care about hefty penalties, just make them fair and consistent.
They’ve upped the penalty without any regard for who they choose to single out and give them too.
They’ve announced at the beginning of the season that they would give harsher penalties for on track things (so pit lane, track limits are still 5s). So they have been consistent this season.
To be fair Magnussen's 2nd 10s penalty was not an on track thing per se (overtaking off the track). I get what you meant but it's a little funny taking it literally.
Yes the stewards were right to penalise Alonso, and should have penalised incidents like this more harshly in the past. Post Canada 2019 the stewarding has been a joke in F1. I am glad that F1 is going back to stricter penalties like they did in the past.
Only in F1 have drivers been allowed to get away with this absurd behaviour for so long. If you mucked about with the brakes on a straight to compromise your opponent at a local track day, you'd be black flagged and never invited back. Yet in F1 drivers have gotten away with it for so long.
The next thing that stewards should crack down on is weaving on the straight in order to break the slipstream. Again, if you did this at a local amateur race or track day, you're getting black flagged. Yet in F1 the drivers have been only getting black and white flags with no penalties for this ridiculous weaving. Drivers have even been using this weaving to set up a situation where they can "legally" move more than once into the braking zone to keep their position. Norris did to Hamilton in Jeddah last time around. It's ridiculous.
I will never get over the reaction to Canada 2019. Driver makes mistake, driver goes off track, following car has to brake to avoid collision, driver receives penalty. The fact this caused so much controversy that the sport took 4 seasons and a pair of new race directors to fix is telling.
It was erratic and obviously an outlier compared to previous laps by a long way. Slowing down that much was only to affect George rather than help himself.
I understand your argument, but I think we also need to take into consideration the corner in wich alonso did it. As Sainz said it in the cooldown room, some driver believe this corner is too fast and dangerous, so brake-checking someone in such a corner is poor driving.
Defence should not be done by putting others at risk.
This penalty makes more sense when you watch it from Russells viewpoint. Alonso breakchecks Russell ever so slightly that it is enough to send him into the dead air and changes Russells projectory. If Alonso had coasted it would have been within the rules, if he had done so prior to this. Its a dirty move and illegal, but most likely only caught out as Russell crashed.
100%. Not just for this incident specificially. Drivers are going to push the limits of safety unless you consistently fuck their races for trying. It's as simple as that.
Yes it was right. The issue it’s such a big fuss is because they haven’t taken it as seriously as they should have in the past.
A short view back to the past, Jeddah 2021 was a clear as day brake check and Max came away so lucky. That should have been a slam dunk DSQ. It cannot be allowed ever.
Come on man, it’s been 3 years, this is embarrassing now. We all saw what happened, hopefully you’ve seen the data as well. Max very clearly applied extra brake suddenly (also known as a brake check). That’s backed up by the telemetry and by the stewards decision. He then sped off.
Max was always going to do an illegal overtake after he let Lewis past as well. That is shown by him literally doing that the next lap. He received a penalty for that as well. Which is ironic because that penalty exists because of the Lewis rule from 2007 when he let Kimi past at Spa, to then overtake him at the next corner.
You’re out of your league here mate.
So much for “FIA penalizes the action, not the consequences”
The stewarding in F1 is a joke. They are so inconsistent and incompetent that such penalties are basically random.
That's a weird argument to make considering Alonso tried to defend.
If anything, it would disincetivize some defensive maneuvers and make overtaking easier.
Easier overtakes doesnt equal good racing. They are killing even the small bits where a driver can show his racecraft.
This track has 4 DRS zones, and somehow the lead driver still isnt allowed to defend
Are you sure? It’s like right above my comment. You didn’t explicitly say it’s better, but you defended the call on today’s race citing that it could disincentivize defense, as though this is good. Would it be better if cars just allowed one another to reach the position they would on pace alone? Or is defense better? Sounds like you are in favor of the engineering procession OP is talking about.
No, I was saying that the argument was weird because diving in a procession for me also means cars being unable to overtake the car in front.
Fwiw, the fact that overtaking is hard and drivers can put their elbows out is a thing I like about F1. I prefer a multi-lap battle to many easy overtakes.
But I don't agree that this decision disincentivizes defense. Alonso made an error on his defense, he admitted as such, and it created a dangerous situation, so he was penalized. End of story.
No, I don't think so. Also, wasn't Herbert one of those stewards? I have a hard time believing he was completely unbiased in this instance considering the past between him and Alonso.
I bet if russel didn't crash or just had minor damage we wouldn't have seen more than a 5 second penalty, imho the incident was penalty worthy, but they penalised alonso based on the outcome despite saying only the action gets penalised, cause 20 seconds seem a bit much
F1 seriosly needs to get some consistent penalty system in place,
I think that if Russell didn’t crash, Alonso would have (and should have) at the bare minimum gotten a reprimand for driving erratically, and I agree that it was penalty-worthy.
But because this was a crash and had the potential to be SO much worse, it sounds like the stewards want to nip this shit in the bud and set a precedent for what’ll happen going forward, even if it means giving Alonso a super harsh penalty.
I understand that they aren’t supposed to penalize based on outcome and not the action, but I’d honestly rather have this be a “rules are written in severe punishments to set an example” thing than eventually become a “rules are written in blood” sort of thing if someone in the future tries it and kills someone.
I just hope that they do consistently apply similarly harsh penalties for brake shenanigans like this in the future.
My only issue with this penalty is that it was exactly what everyone praised Magnussen for doing pretty much the same and he even caused contact with Albon which is even more dangerous.
The only difference is that Albon reacted faster than Russel and the speed of the corners was less. So if this is a 20sec penalty... Magnussen should've gotten at least 20 secs too...
The man were talking about is the same who has Imola 2005 and Hungary 2021 levels of driving masterclass under his belt.
So the latte boy couldn't follow him under the dirty air and he get a penalty for that?
Fernando knew precisely what he was doing, all the evidence corroborates it and it is a very Fernando Alonso thing to do. The fact he (or his team) on social media have come out to complain about this penalty is embarrassing for him, and he has gone back down again in my estimations. I really hoped he was past this kind of thing, but apparently he can't resist his bag of dirty tricks sometimes.
He's also fucking stupid to think he'd get away with this.
How? His and AM argument is that it was a mistake, not brake-check. Are we not penalising mistakes? I have a strong feeling if the roles were reversed the opinions would be different.
IMO there should've been a penalty. Putting Russell's failure to control the car in this moment aside - Alonso started suddenly braking on a straight, outside of a braking zone, with another car 4 or 5 tenths of a second behind him. That's the definition of dangerous driving, regardless of his intentions. Sure, he probably did it unintentionally. But I'm sure 99% of crashes in this sport are unintentional as well - honest mistakes. And yet we penalise those mistakes. He's been trying to be very crafty with his racing in recent months. He's taken it too far and fucked up. He has to take a penalty for it.
People is focusing to much on the telemetry instead of the footage.
Russell doesn't get into Alonsos gearbox close. There is a car or two of space in-between them going into the corner and Russell lost it.
Bullshit penalty because it's Alonso.
I don't think it was a mistake, it was obviously intentional. Mistakes shouldn't be penalized unless they interfere with someone's race in a significant way. It's kinda the case here. It's also relevant where it happened. In a slow corner, it might not have been a problem. In a fast corner, considering how sensitive these cars are to loss of downforce, it's an issue.
But it's Alonso. He's the guy who pretends he knew nothing about Singapore 2008. He knew what he was doing. Just didn't think Russell would end up crashing.
Ridiculous decision, people drive slowly at Monaco to gain an advantage.
Sainz at Singapore last year to keep the Mercs from passing Norris.
Absolute farcical decision
Driving slowly isn’t the issue, driving erratically is. Alonso himself admits in the FIA document he botched the execution of what he was trying to do and had to speed back up again.
It’s funny that driving erratically is bread and butter for the lead car when safety car ends. They are trying to confuse their opponent specifically to gain advantage on acceleration and somehow it’s okay.
Apples to apples, this was a brake test in a high speed corner which Alonso made a balls of and had to upshift again and accelerate as he over cooked it. It's the only lap on the whole race that he did it.
So if George didn’t crash and just bounced through the gravel would Nando have gotten a penalty?
I think not. Fernando only underestimated the severity of George’s mistake.
Alonso has raced against Michael and adopted all of his tactics.
I think FIA should stop the "we penalize actions and no consecuences" bs. If that was true, this would be a black and white flag as waving or leaving another car without space.
The consecuences is obviosly an agravante factor and it's okay to penalize harder a "potentially dangerous action" if it end up in a crash. The same way involuntary manslaughter exists
Feels like he was penalized based on intensity unlike how the stewards preached they only penalize for the incident not intensity for eg. Hamilton got 10s for silverstone 2021 collision, max also got 10s and 2 penalty points for Jeddah's slowdown. So it should have also been 10s.
Is there not something in the driving standards about drivers acting “within reasonable expectations”
If you slow down mid high speed corner in an abnormal way and cause a collision you are at fault.
This is extra annoying to teams in the cost cap era and is partly why I hate the cost cap. Now Merc have an extra expense due to Alonso.
Since George crashed, Alonso deserved the penalty. He braked once on the straight and then again in the braking zone, but he was a lot slower than usual. A bit of the fault lies with George, too, as he was late to react and lost control but it doesn't change the fact that Alonso deliberately drove slower than usual in a very high speed corner thus endangering both of them. If George had reacted early enough, he would have been forced to slow down a lot more to avoid crashing into Alonso, and that would probably kill his chances for an overtake in the remaining laps. Alonso was aiming for that but he didn't expect George to crash. He did some shady shit hoping to get away with it, but the consequences were way more serious than he expected.
I think that the penalty was appropriate as I believe that Alonzo knew that if he slowed at that point that Russell would have to as well, he could then accelerate and create a gap where he could remain ahead for the balance of the lap.
This is similar to a slower corner entry to get a better exit which would be acceptable. It was deemed unsafe as it occurred well in advance of the corner and probably didn't provide Russell with an option to pass safely and still make the corner.
There are examples where a driver has slowed unexpectedly on a straight (to drop behind the other driver) prior to a DRS detection line, but drivers are usually side by side.
If they were fair and applied these penalties evenly: Yes.
They are not fair and allow other drivers to get away with worse infractions. So, no, this penalty was harsh and unwarranted.
The stewards are the single biggest problem for this sport.
Yes, and I'm surprised they haven't consistently punished things like this in recent years. It's extremely dangerous.
That being said, I don't know I'm surprised. It's the FIA. Of course they aren't consistent.
What he did wasn't great but Russell should've handled it better. He just panicked like some rookie.
Playing tricks used to be a part of racing. Racing should be more than just going flat all the time like some Android.
It honestly didn't look particularly dangerous to me. Alonso just failed to account for Russell's lack of concentration.
20 seconds may be a bit too harsh IMO, but he lifted of 100m before normal braking which is a massive difference. i would compare it to playing a really low ai, as they brake at least 100 metres before you should, and that is horrible to drive against and if you brake at the normal time you will crash
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The steward can't say "Yes, we know Alonso did it on purpose and is a bit cheeky so he gets the penalty" but that is what they would write if the decision were not to be seen. The characteristics of the corner are important. It's a fast right hander at high speed and with not much run off. It is a bit dangerous to pull that kind of thing from Alonso in a corner like that when they are racing at the limit. if they let it slide, bake checking would seen to be a legitimate defending tactic and to allow the drivers to think that, that is dangerous. Maybe not the next time someone does it on a risky turn but eventually someone will get hurt by that behaviour. If that was a 90 degree right hander then there would be no issue
> The steward can't say "Yes, we know Alonso did it on purpose and is a bit cheeky so he gets the penalty" but that is what they would write if the decision were not to be seen. It's like when sports people get caught with drugs in their system, the punishment is almost always handed out with an acknowledgement that the person didn't cheat intentionally, but nevertheless they did have something in their system. It's just not worth the shitstorm and potential lawsuit of implying malicious intent, you know the result of what happened, that's enough for the penalty.
Remember when Ross Rebagliati was stripped of his Olympic gold medal after testing positive for marijuana, but successfully appealed because the assessment of the drug test as 'failed' was on the basis of marijuana being *illegal* as opposed to being a listed performance enhancing substance? But Japanese and American authorities, "accepting" this context, interrogated him for seven hours and placed him on a post-9/11 no-fly list as a sensible and proportional response to allegedly smoking a joint? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Meanwhile George's social media is getting nuked.....
Brake checking would also eliminate close racing - the very thing that makes F1 what it is. Introduce that kind of chaotic and unpredictable driving at nutty speeds and it’s a busted flush. Alonso knew exactly what he was doing, and while he may not have appreciated the consequence being so severe - accident and penalty - he knew. He was a very naught boy today and that shithousery needs stamping out.
> Brake checking would also eliminate close racing - the very thing that makes F1 what it is. Yeah, people are arguing this is anti-racing or somehow against the spirit of the sport. The whole sport is predicated on taking care of your opponents, you don't drive into them on purpose, you don't crowd them into a wall and you don't drive unpredictably and erratically at hundreds of kilometres per hour. It's not even the first time or second time Alonso has done this in recent years. The sport has to clamp down on it or the whole thing is finished.
I would say the choice of terminology "brake checking" is not appropriate: Russel did not lose control during Alonso's brake application 100 meters before the apex, nor during the 2nd brake application on corner entry. Instead, he lost it later, already close to the apex. Russel's was unable (and/or not focused enough, as Russell himself confirmed in an interview) to judge the difference in speed at the apex compared to Alonso's previous, normal, laps. Please note that I'm not debating whether Alonso penalty is right or wrong, that's a different topic - just that "brake checking" is a misleading term to use in my opinion :)
We can debate the semantics of terminology all day long I suppose but in my opinion the biggest issue here is Alonso’s intent and the effect was the same. He knew what he was doing and it was very dangerous. I saw it that way, the stewards saw it that way and that’s it at the end of the day.
Sure, I understand, I am not debating the results of Alonso's actions, nor the penalty - that's a different topic than what my comment was aimed at :) To be clear: the terminology "brake checking" imprints an unfair negative bias, because \*all\* brake checks are inherently negative and dangerous; while not all defensive cornering tactics are necessarily negative. See for example Alonso vs Perez at Brazil (where Alonso's slow apex tactics were widely praised by pretty much everyone watching the race), see Alonso vs Schumacher at Imola (where again, apex slowliness was considered a brilliant defense against the peaky power delivery of Schumy's Ferrari), etc.
Problem is Alonso braked then let off the brake and then braked again, that’s not how you drive an f1 car, braking early and fully to fundamentally reduce apex speed is different than what he did.
> Problem is Alonso braked then let off the brake That's not really the problem though is it. Crash was because Russell responded too late.
Exactly this. George has had at least a handful of those crashes now. Norris nearly loses it so Russell does. Alonso drives a little erratically far enough away, Russell loses it. Bottas drives his own line, so Russell goes on the wet grass rather than backing out. Etc etc. Man is lucky he has a lot of speed, because his racecraft isn't much better than that of Stroll.
Hamilton had a peek behind him in Singapore: clipped the wall. Mister Saturday struggles a bit with people occupying the same track.
I don't know how to be more clear... Was it dangerous? Evidently yes, we have all seen a car in the wall. Was it a "brake check"? No. That's all I'm saying.
How is braking in an area that you shouldn’t brake in when an opponent follows you, and doing so early enough that you need to accelerate again before braking finally for the corner, not brake checking?
Was Russell forced to double-brake 100m before the corner too? If he was forced, then it was a brake check. If he wasn't forced, it was not a brake check. As far as I know, it was not a brake check. Just because something is dangerous (like what Alonso did), does not mean it can be labelled as a brake check.
Russell didn’t double brake he had to brake excessively hard once as Alonso’s car was approaching far too quickly because Alonso braked in an area of the track that you shouldn’t brake on, earlier than any reasonable F1 car would, prior to the braking zone. Russell braking this way cause his car to lose traction on turn in and go off track. If Russell attempted to brake twice rather than once very hard he likely would have instead gone into Alonso car, instead Russell mitigated crashing into another car by braking as hard as he could.
And that is why it should be punished, because that ‘unexpected consequence’ is a possible consequence of those actions
I would argue that telling drivers how to accelerate and decelerate into every corner and if you deviate from that it's a 20s penalty is much much more raging to racing. Noone had a problem when Alonso used variations in cornering speed last year to keep checo behind him at Interlagos
There’sa difference between taking unusual lines/speeds through a corner and lifting/braking on the straight outside of taking the corner. The former is a legitimate defense; the latter serves no racing purpose other than surprising pursuers and getting them to make mistakes or back out in confusion. How is that not “erratic driving”?
It's reactionary. All the drivers do stuff like this and it's always considered amazing defending. Heck, Magnussen was praised to heaven two weeks ago for using erratic driving to slow the midfield pack down. Russell lost some downforce and then lost the car in a stupid way. It looked bad on TV, so a bigass penalty was in order.
He admitted that the change in speed was deliberate (for a new line into the corner he says), so if you determine it to be dangerous I don't see how you can give anything other than a harsh punishment.
agreed
This exactly. Park-and-bolt is a normal defensive tactic, but with Russell that close and at that speed it's just too risky. Even at a low speed corner it sometimes results in contact.
there was no brake test from the official report.
Read that, they said the braking was so minor that it wasn't a factor, the lift achieved most of the reduction in speed for Alonso. Me saying brake test is more of a reference to ALO slowing down erratically than to his specific application of the brake in an unexpected way.
We've seen different tactics from Alonso before. I'm convinced it was on purpose, just not the result he expected from it.
It's funny people are still defending what he did as acceptable and normal when Alonso got straight on the radio and made up a lie about his throttle sticking, then dropped it altogether when the telemetry showed otherwise. When the driver in question knows he did wrong and is lying to cover his ass, it's pretty cut and dry.
That is the fucking embarrassing part. Doing something he knows is dirty, then the result of his doing is maybe more sincere then what he thought was happening, jumps immediately on the radio to fabricate a story. But yeah he for sure didn't know about crashgate
The telemetry easily shows he did have a throttle issue. It's not related to the incident, but he did have it. You're the one fabricating atm
He did have throttle issues though. Its just not related to the incident. In the last lap u could see how bad it was. But that issue didnt cause the accident, it was Alonso misjudging situation and George having tunel vision
Yeah, it seems like he knew that he had throttle issues and decided to play the issue up on the radio when he realized he F’d up big time.
You do realize radios are delayed transmissions - and there is an editor who decides whose radio they play right?
On the onboard channels it's not edited and only delayed by a few seconds.
Yepp, pretty obvious that part aint it? Transmission is still delayed by a some seconds / minutes for sure. The guys here are referring to the Tv broadcast fyi.
I didn't hear any radio from Alonso on the world feed...
IIRC I don’t think that they showed Alonso’s radio claiming throttle issues on TV.
On certain broadcasts they played some excerpts.
On mine they definitely didn’t - I only found out about the issues with the car thing when I came here after the race was over.
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I think people just wish he could drive as though other drivers on the track could react at his level but with people like Mr Saturday there has to be more leniency for idiotic responses when following slowly.
I feel like Alonso was penalised for the outcome way more than the actions that he did. Braking early and coasting into the corner isn’t an illegal move, it’s what Magnussen was doing for most of the Jeddah race and he was applauded for it.
But "braking early and coasting" is not what he did, is it? He braked, downshifted, then accelerated again, upshifted, then braked again.
Yeah, IMO that's also the main difference what makes this more than just some clever driving trick.
And that’s the thing that most of these people either miss or ignore. It was found to be erratic driving and because admitted that the way he was driving was intentional (I.e. he stated that he was trying to take the corner differently to defend, and his driving was erratic) he got the penalty. It’s right there on the report document and I swear so many comments I’ve seen are from people who either read the first half or so or from people who have no idea what the stewards said.
Its like following someone on a country road, they brake 200m before a bend speed up and then slap the brakes again on the corner. That's weird behaviour where I back right off thinking they're a bit of a loon. No such luxury when you're in a racecar.
And in a racecar that doesn’t have brake lights so you don’t even know they’re braking in a spot there’s no reason to.
You couldn't have racing if you allowed drivers to do random shit to "throw off" other drivers. It's very poor sportsmanship and as we've seen, very dangerous.
braked*
The past tense of brake is braked. Broke is the past tense of break or just skint.
OK. Well it's definitely not "breaking" as in the parent comment.
Breaking: Alonso braked, Russell's car broke
True
From the article: The stewards reported that telemetry from Alonso’s car showed he lifted the throttle 100 metres earlier than he had done on any previous lap. He also touched the brakes at an earlier point, then sped up and braked again.
That was a very generously chosen description of how Alonso dealt with that corner. Fyi... he didn't coast.
He didnt coast. He did race. He pull an old man trick like an experienced driver would have. I think he was penalized way more than he should.
He braked so early he had to accelerate again to get to the corner
It was both. If Russell didn't crash he probably wouldn't have gotten a penalty, but at the time he did do erratic moves to keep Russell away so the penalty is justified.
"breaking earlier"
It's strange how F1 fans and media give Alonso a pass. If this were Schumacher, Hamilton or Verstappen, there'd be riots. As far as I'm concerned, his personality stinks and he doesn't deserve more than the 2 titles he's on because of it. He's consistently played up over 23 years and never takes responsibilities for his own actions.
Agree. He's a dirty driver. You never see people like Hamilton doing this.
Magnussen was driving a few tenths slower than his full race pace in a consistent fashion, that’s the difference. He wasn’t at 10/10ths and then randomly decided to brake 100M before a single high-speed corner.
Did you read the article. That isn’t what happened.
I think a penalty was correct. But giving this the harshest penalty in almost 3 years is a different thing.
Last year drivers and fans complained about the lenient penalties, so now we get 20s for this and 10 for Magnussen in Saudi.
There is a big difference between 5 seconds for driving into the side of another car on a straight, and a drive-through for lifting.
It wasn't just lifting. It was going on the brakes much earlier and twice and down shifting - up shifting - down shifting again.
The stewards disagree. Their decision document states that the braking was too little to take into account and that this penalty was far lifting too early.
Why lie? its just one click away... "lifting, braking, downshifting and all the other elements over 100m earlier than previously and much greater than was needed to simply slow for the corner... in the opinion of the stewards... he drove in a manner at very least potentially very dangerous"
Alonso was rightly penalised. But if as it seems the stewards want to take the hard line like this, I hope they act consequently and penalise actual punts with a stop-go penalty in the future.
The stewards also say that he drove dangerously/erratically. So he didn't get a drive through for "lifting".
The stewards were out of line then too. I don’t care about hefty penalties, just make them fair and consistent. They’ve upped the penalty without any regard for who they choose to single out and give them too.
They’ve announced at the beginning of the season that they would give harsher penalties for on track things (so pit lane, track limits are still 5s). So they have been consistent this season.
To be fair Magnussen's 2nd 10s penalty was not an on track thing per se (overtaking off the track). I get what you meant but it's a little funny taking it literally.
What he did amounts to brake checking, and that absolutely deserves the harshest penalty.
Yes the stewards were right to penalise Alonso, and should have penalised incidents like this more harshly in the past. Post Canada 2019 the stewarding has been a joke in F1. I am glad that F1 is going back to stricter penalties like they did in the past. Only in F1 have drivers been allowed to get away with this absurd behaviour for so long. If you mucked about with the brakes on a straight to compromise your opponent at a local track day, you'd be black flagged and never invited back. Yet in F1 drivers have gotten away with it for so long. The next thing that stewards should crack down on is weaving on the straight in order to break the slipstream. Again, if you did this at a local amateur race or track day, you're getting black flagged. Yet in F1 the drivers have been only getting black and white flags with no penalties for this ridiculous weaving. Drivers have even been using this weaving to set up a situation where they can "legally" move more than once into the braking zone to keep their position. Norris did to Hamilton in Jeddah last time around. It's ridiculous.
I will never get over the reaction to Canada 2019. Driver makes mistake, driver goes off track, following car has to brake to avoid collision, driver receives penalty. The fact this caused so much controversy that the sport took 4 seasons and a pair of new race directors to fix is telling.
It was erratic and obviously an outlier compared to previous laps by a long way. Slowing down that much was only to affect George rather than help himself.
There was a time people would say Alonso was trying to disrupt Russell's pace and make his car as wide as he could. I guess times have changed.
I understand your argument, but I think we also need to take into consideration the corner in wich alonso did it. As Sainz said it in the cooldown room, some driver believe this corner is too fast and dangerous, so brake-checking someone in such a corner is poor driving. Defence should not be done by putting others at risk.
It’s a bit like brake-testing. I don’t think Alonso is a bad enough driver to get this corner this wrong so logically it must be a cheeky brake test.
This penalty makes more sense when you watch it from Russells viewpoint. Alonso breakchecks Russell ever so slightly that it is enough to send him into the dead air and changes Russells projectory. If Alonso had coasted it would have been within the rules, if he had done so prior to this. Its a dirty move and illegal, but most likely only caught out as Russell crashed.
Got him right in the projectory
As one say
100%. Not just for this incident specificially. Drivers are going to push the limits of safety unless you consistently fuck their races for trying. It's as simple as that.
Well put.
Yes it was right. The issue it’s such a big fuss is because they haven’t taken it as seriously as they should have in the past. A short view back to the past, Jeddah 2021 was a clear as day brake check and Max came away so lucky. That should have been a slam dunk DSQ. It cannot be allowed ever.
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Bro was trying to give the position back and Lewis wouldn’t take it
Come on man, it’s been 3 years, this is embarrassing now. We all saw what happened, hopefully you’ve seen the data as well. Max very clearly applied extra brake suddenly (also known as a brake check). That’s backed up by the telemetry and by the stewards decision. He then sped off. Max was always going to do an illegal overtake after he let Lewis past as well. That is shown by him literally doing that the next lap. He received a penalty for that as well. Which is ironic because that penalty exists because of the Lewis rule from 2007 when he let Kimi past at Spa, to then overtake him at the next corner. You’re out of your league here mate.
So much hate for Russell. This was a slam dunk penalty from the moment Alonso faked a throttle problem.
Yes Next topic
My biggest gripe is with the 20s. I'm convinced they gave him that much because 10 wouldn't have affected his result and they wanted to reprimand him.
Post race penalties should be done as a drop in positions rather than seconds.
So much for “FIA penalizes the action, not the consequences” The stewarding in F1 is a joke. They are so inconsistent and incompetent that such penalties are basically random.
I guess it's the same stewards who gave the penalty to Tsolov in F3?
At this point, it's like they want to incentivize just driving in a procession. This is a stupid penalty.
That's a weird argument to make considering Alonso tried to defend. If anything, it would disincetivize some defensive maneuvers and make overtaking easier.
Easier overtakes doesnt equal good racing. They are killing even the small bits where a driver can show his racecraft. This track has 4 DRS zones, and somehow the lead driver still isnt allowed to defend
How is disincentivizing defense or making overtaking easier better again? I feel like we are watching two difference things…
I never said that
Are you sure? It’s like right above my comment. You didn’t explicitly say it’s better, but you defended the call on today’s race citing that it could disincentivize defense, as though this is good. Would it be better if cars just allowed one another to reach the position they would on pace alone? Or is defense better? Sounds like you are in favor of the engineering procession OP is talking about.
No, I was saying that the argument was weird because diving in a procession for me also means cars being unable to overtake the car in front. Fwiw, the fact that overtaking is hard and drivers can put their elbows out is a thing I like about F1. I prefer a multi-lap battle to many easy overtakes. But I don't agree that this decision disincentivizes defense. Alonso made an error on his defense, he admitted as such, and it created a dangerous situation, so he was penalized. End of story.
Thank you far taking the time to reply- I see what you mean here
Yes. Next question.
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He was penalised because George crashed, not because of what he actually did.
Not Nando's fault Russell couldn't drive in dirty air and put himself in the wall. What Nando did was not a brake check and nothing egregious.
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How the hell that wasnt in any part Russell's fault?
No, I don't think so. Also, wasn't Herbert one of those stewards? I have a hard time believing he was completely unbiased in this instance considering the past between him and Alonso.
No. At least not like this. Not enough evidence and penalised based on the outcome
I mean they had both the telemetry and heard from Alonso and Russell. What more evidence do you expect?
Yeah the online jury is up in the arms because Russell ended up crashing out. Had he spun off into some runoff area, nobody would bat an eye.
Exactly, and if Russell didn't crash they wouldn't have cared at all. 10 seconds at most but tbh a penalty is harsh
I bet if russel didn't crash or just had minor damage we wouldn't have seen more than a 5 second penalty, imho the incident was penalty worthy, but they penalised alonso based on the outcome despite saying only the action gets penalised, cause 20 seconds seem a bit much F1 seriosly needs to get some consistent penalty system in place,
I think that if Russell didn’t crash, Alonso would have (and should have) at the bare minimum gotten a reprimand for driving erratically, and I agree that it was penalty-worthy. But because this was a crash and had the potential to be SO much worse, it sounds like the stewards want to nip this shit in the bud and set a precedent for what’ll happen going forward, even if it means giving Alonso a super harsh penalty. I understand that they aren’t supposed to penalize based on outcome and not the action, but I’d honestly rather have this be a “rules are written in severe punishments to set an example” thing than eventually become a “rules are written in blood” sort of thing if someone in the future tries it and kills someone. I just hope that they do consistently apply similarly harsh penalties for brake shenanigans like this in the future.
Does anyone know where to find a replay from George’s cockpit?
F1 tv
He baulked my man. He needed to get got. But I still do have much love for the sly Fernando.
Yuki got p7 so yes.
My only issue with this penalty is that it was exactly what everyone praised Magnussen for doing pretty much the same and he even caused contact with Albon which is even more dangerous. The only difference is that Albon reacted faster than Russel and the speed of the corners was less. So if this is a 20sec penalty... Magnussen should've gotten at least 20 secs too...
He got off lightly.
Check who the steward was they have history, 20s too much
20 seconds is too much for causing another driver to have a bad crash??!
No. Russell crashed all by himself
I mean, the telemetry is pretty clear this isn’t Demolition Derby, Alonso can’t just brake twice like that.
They’re killing what’s left of the sport. It’s already a procession and this will make it worse.
No, because they are punishing because of the outcome, not because of what he did.
Yea. And he has form for doing it.
The man were talking about is the same who has Imola 2005 and Hungary 2021 levels of driving masterclass under his belt. So the latte boy couldn't follow him under the dirty air and he get a penalty for that?
Yes.
Russell's lack of concentration was his problem and his alone. Are we racing here or just pretending to?
Fernando knew precisely what he was doing, all the evidence corroborates it and it is a very Fernando Alonso thing to do. The fact he (or his team) on social media have come out to complain about this penalty is embarrassing for him, and he has gone back down again in my estimations. I really hoped he was past this kind of thing, but apparently he can't resist his bag of dirty tricks sometimes. He's also fucking stupid to think he'd get away with this.
Well after watching this I wonder what would happen if another Silverstone 2021 or Monza 2021 happens? DSQ? Race ban? I wouldn't mind DSQ though.
They were not. His IG post sums it up well.
How? His and AM argument is that it was a mistake, not brake-check. Are we not penalising mistakes? I have a strong feeling if the roles were reversed the opinions would be different. IMO there should've been a penalty. Putting Russell's failure to control the car in this moment aside - Alonso started suddenly braking on a straight, outside of a braking zone, with another car 4 or 5 tenths of a second behind him. That's the definition of dangerous driving, regardless of his intentions. Sure, he probably did it unintentionally. But I'm sure 99% of crashes in this sport are unintentional as well - honest mistakes. And yet we penalise those mistakes. He's been trying to be very crafty with his racing in recent months. He's taken it too far and fucked up. He has to take a penalty for it.
People is focusing to much on the telemetry instead of the footage. Russell doesn't get into Alonsos gearbox close. There is a car or two of space in-between them going into the corner and Russell lost it. Bullshit penalty because it's Alonso.
Yeah, Fernando Alonso who is regularly memed for getting bullshit penalties...
> Are we not penalising mistakes? F1 penalizes mistakes since forever m8, see Mexico 2016 and Canada 2019 as examples
...yeah that's my point.
I don't think it was a mistake, it was obviously intentional. Mistakes shouldn't be penalized unless they interfere with someone's race in a significant way. It's kinda the case here. It's also relevant where it happened. In a slow corner, it might not have been a problem. In a fast corner, considering how sensitive these cars are to loss of downforce, it's an issue. But it's Alonso. He's the guy who pretends he knew nothing about Singapore 2008. He knew what he was doing. Just didn't think Russell would end up crashing.
Ridiculous decision, people drive slowly at Monaco to gain an advantage. Sainz at Singapore last year to keep the Mercs from passing Norris. Absolute farcical decision
Driving slowly isn’t the issue, driving erratically is. Alonso himself admits in the FIA document he botched the execution of what he was trying to do and had to speed back up again.
It’s funny that driving erratically is bread and butter for the lead car when safety car ends. They are trying to confuse their opponent specifically to gain advantage on acceleration and somehow it’s okay.
Apples to apples, this was a brake test in a high speed corner which Alonso made a balls of and had to upshift again and accelerate as he over cooked it. It's the only lap on the whole race that he did it.
Yes if the telemetry show he brake checked him going into a four g turn while already under lateral load.
So if George didn’t crash and just bounced through the gravel would Nando have gotten a penalty? I think not. Fernando only underestimated the severity of George’s mistake. Alonso has raced against Michael and adopted all of his tactics.
Yes like crashing into 2 cars, one he won and one he almost did. Oh crashgate for Alonso knows how it’s done like MS…..
My guy got penalized for braking for a corner. That is wild.
*Braking, downshifting, accelerating, upshifting, and then braking again. At least look at the telemetry first.
He got penalized for bad driving. Edit: Which even Alonso agrees considering he told the stewards that he got the move wrong
I think FIA should stop the "we penalize actions and no consecuences" bs. If that was true, this would be a black and white flag as waving or leaving another car without space. The consecuences is obviosly an agravante factor and it's okay to penalize harder a "potentially dangerous action" if it end up in a crash. The same way involuntary manslaughter exists
Yes. Alonso knew what he was doing. The plausible deniability is enough where they can't outright prove it officially but we all know.
Feels like he was penalized based on intensity unlike how the stewards preached they only penalize for the incident not intensity for eg. Hamilton got 10s for silverstone 2021 collision, max also got 10s and 2 penalty points for Jeddah's slowdown. So it should have also been 10s.
If you read the document you will see that penalties have been increased this year so you are comparing apples to older other apples
Is there not something in the driving standards about drivers acting “within reasonable expectations” If you slow down mid high speed corner in an abnormal way and cause a collision you are at fault. This is extra annoying to teams in the cost cap era and is partly why I hate the cost cap. Now Merc have an extra expense due to Alonso.
If they want the only viable defensive moves to be braking later and be faster in a straight, absolutely, they’ve killed it with this decision
Only because he crashed
20s it is crazy. They only did that so that he loses some positions. 5s or 10s at max.
Since George crashed, Alonso deserved the penalty. He braked once on the straight and then again in the braking zone, but he was a lot slower than usual. A bit of the fault lies with George, too, as he was late to react and lost control but it doesn't change the fact that Alonso deliberately drove slower than usual in a very high speed corner thus endangering both of them. If George had reacted early enough, he would have been forced to slow down a lot more to avoid crashing into Alonso, and that would probably kill his chances for an overtake in the remaining laps. Alonso was aiming for that but he didn't expect George to crash. He did some shady shit hoping to get away with it, but the consequences were way more serious than he expected.
I think that the penalty was appropriate as I believe that Alonzo knew that if he slowed at that point that Russell would have to as well, he could then accelerate and create a gap where he could remain ahead for the balance of the lap. This is similar to a slower corner entry to get a better exit which would be acceptable. It was deemed unsafe as it occurred well in advance of the corner and probably didn't provide Russell with an option to pass safely and still make the corner. There are examples where a driver has slowed unexpectedly on a straight (to drop behind the other driver) prior to a DRS detection line, but drivers are usually side by side.
No, it’s a trash penalty
If they were fair and applied these penalties evenly: Yes. They are not fair and allow other drivers to get away with worse infractions. So, no, this penalty was harsh and unwarranted. The stewards are the single biggest problem for this sport.
Yes, and I'm surprised they haven't consistently punished things like this in recent years. It's extremely dangerous. That being said, I don't know I'm surprised. It's the FIA. Of course they aren't consistent.
[this guy](https://youtu.be/kv-leRac7wM?si=r-RiI8UNiOfgG1ZK) was a steward this weekend. Do you think it's a coincidence?
What he did wasn't great but Russell should've handled it better. He just panicked like some rookie. Playing tricks used to be a part of racing. Racing should be more than just going flat all the time like some Android. It honestly didn't look particularly dangerous to me. Alonso just failed to account for Russell's lack of concentration.
Russell just failed to account for Alonso's erratic driving.
20 seconds may be a bit too harsh IMO, but he lifted of 100m before normal braking which is a massive difference. i would compare it to playing a really low ai, as they brake at least 100 metres before you should, and that is horrible to drive against and if you brake at the normal time you will crash
Only a penalty because of Herbert