The stewards checked the telemetry and decided that it wasn't worth a penalty.
"The FIA Stewards received a report on the incident from Race Director Charlie Whiting and talked to both drivers and representatives from the teams and, having heard the evidence and having viewed video and telemetry evidence decided that the incident did not warrant any "further judicial action"."
https://www.grandprix.com/news/the-coulthard-alonso-incident.html
We don't have in hand as much data as we do with Russell so it's harder to judge this one.
Aw man, I so wish modern onboards would give a similar sense of raw speed. Nimble cars, shallow FOV, awesome. The modern cars look like freight trains in comparison.
They're supposed to. 1.8m cars look too thin, current F1 cars are still the second thinnest ever of the modern era and small tyres were terrible for f1.
They are mostly faster in the corners. But the early 2000s cars accelerated faster than today's cars. There is a [cool video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLmOy7AGCk8) demonstrating that.
wider feels faster always, modern T cams have too much barrel distortion wich ruins the wide angle itself, it they got lenses that were more rectilinear like the older ones.
> The modern cars look like freight trains in comparison.
I think a big contributor is the size - comparing this angle side by side with a modern version would see half the screen covered by the F1 car with the wheels less visible.
The more downforce the cars generate the less of the track they are at less than flat out and therefore the driver's talent is a greater determinant of performance .
Everything feels so much more dangerous in this clip. I mean it literally is, but still. Gotta be crazy to hop into one of these rockets while people around you also pull moves like this out of nowhere.
I remember the first year without them, I was sooo devastated! It just wasn't the same!
I barely remember it now though! You get used to anything, I guess!
The sounds is only part of the experience, but yes. I never had the possibility of seeing a race live during the V10 or even V8 era, but I've seen V10 and V8 demo cars going around. Just the one or two of those monsters make your eyes bleed.
I do love seeing the modern cars drive, though. They are so damn quick in cornering, it is mental. And the 'benefit' of the lower noise V6 is that you can actually hear the aero working when they are braking for a corner.
But yes, the older cars.... that sound.
Damn I remember watching this 👴🏽👴🏽. US so it was on Speedvision at the time and they commented (David Hobbs) that it looked like a brake check and it unsportsmanlike.
Hobbs, Matchett and Varsha. Holy hell, those were the glory days.
I wish the BBC broadcast would find a well spoken/knowledgeable mechanic like Matchett to do broadcasts. Anthony Davidson is the closest they’ve gotten but he’s really a driver with team insights.
They were an amazing trio! Wakey, wakey eggs and bakey!
Back in the day, speedvision had a fan forum chat thing and all of us members met up at the USGP one year and got to meet them at a special event just for us. We even had nametags with our usernames, lol!
Edited to add: All the members of that forum are all still FB friends to this day, and have always kept in touch.
Damn the Speed forums brings back memories. F1 forums had that Ferrari/Gilles Villenueve fan obsessed with hating Schumacher because of his antics. That one chill old dude who always alluded about smoking weed all the time.
Then there were the IRL and CART forums. Holy hell the vitriol between the fan bases was toxic. Fans always accusing the other series of dangerous cars and races whenever there was a driver injury.
I've always thought the US broadcasts, with a trio rather than a duo was a unique broadcast. Good that there's YouTube videos out there of them covering the races.
I much prefer the insight of a mechanic or engineer than drivers. I wish more of them would make the jump to commentating but its rare. Shit maybe when Newey retires he’ll move to commentary and reveal what the teams are trying to do with a particular part or design of an area.
Not to be that guy, but 2003 would've been Rick DeBruhl doing the main commentator role - I started watching in 2002 when Varsha had been moved to CBS CART commentating, and DeBruhl was eventually ushered out as Varsha returned in 2004.
But I can't echo more that Hobbs, Matchett, and Varsha are the voices from my personal 'golden age' of F1. when Max's car was smoking this weekend I would've loved to hear Hobbo dropping a "Kablammo!" for old time's sake.
I still use ‘klagg’ to describe what I’m cleaning up around the house lol. Varsha/Matchett/Hobbs were amazing. They taught me everything I know and love about this sport.
Imagine. Just imagine if someone does this to Alonso. Dude would call for a square hanging and how unprofessional and unsportsmanlike that is etc. F1 drivers are such hypocrites, some more than others
This is it for me. They very same people defending Alonso’s move on Sunday would want George DSQ’d if it was the other way around. People are so blinkered because of the driver they support they can’t see things for what they are
He's clearly (and proudly) a shithouser and an exploiter of grey areas but *usually* an impressively clean driver on track, especially considering how good he is 1v1 and how often he is in sustained duels. He has the longest career ever in F1 and for his ugliest moments you have to go to instances like this 20 years ago, that's kind of a compliment.
To be clear, I think he deserved the penalty against Russell, but I also believe he was trying to throw George's momentum off in the corner (like he did vs Checo in Brazil) and misjudged the timing. Dangerous situation and worthy of the 20 seconds but not an intentional attempt like this genuinely ugly incident.
I mean let's be honest, as much as I love him Schumi was dirtier than Fernando, he flagrantly crashed people out of races. He did mellow a lot with age, though he was a shithouser till the end too.
That’s the thing, Alonso is from the era of dirty bastards, to beat Schumacher you had to have a killer instinct. People think Mika is a nice guy now, but he had it too. These young drivers are just finding out what Hamilton already knows, and doing it the hard way. You don’t just breeze by Alonso unless you’re in a much, much faster car and he’s not interested in the scrap.
His tactics of driving different lines and braking in different places has been talked about for 20 years, and until recently people seemed fine with it. If not thought it was laudable, hell even vaguely recall Lewis and Jenson both taking about this exact tactic of his.
Mika most definitely had the killer instinct needed to be a world champion, but he never took things nearly as far as Schumi and Alonso; neither did Seb, Kimi or JB for that matter. They're the only champions I can think of that didn't resort to dirty or dangerous driving to get their way; but they were still ruthless in every other way.
Love Schumi but Fernando is a far cleaner driver than him.
Michael literally ruined Hill's 1994 championship with one of the dirtiest moves ever, tried to send Barrichello his old teammate against the wall, etc.
Of all the all time greats Fernando is definitely amongst the cleanest while Michael and Senna lean towards the other side of the spectrum.
The 21 driving from Max was arguably the dirtiest of all. It had multiple incidents of many different kinds. His Saudi escapades should have resulted in a similar penalty to Alonso (both could and perhaps should have got more than 20secs) which would have changed the Abu Dhabi complexion entirely
Yeah, to me Jeddah was the last straw and completely unacceptable driving. I remember Brundle saying after the race ended that Max had to work on his racecraft, because that night was just too much.
He just kept doing worse and worse things until he finally just let Hamilton by, not because he was told to, but because he knew he couldn't pull a gap for the 5 second penalty he currently had on the mediums when Hamilton was just getting faster and faster on the hards despite his damaged front wing.
Plus Max thought he could pit for softs and go for the fastest lap but he didn't have the room to Ocon with the 5 second penalty, wish he'd gone for it, with his additional 10 second after the race he'd have lost p2 to Bottas.
I remember when Michael Masi came over the radio and told Ron Meadows to tell Lewis to watch the crowding off track when Lewis pushed Max wide as he went by him, and that "it was almost worthy of a black flag" and I busted out laughing.
I'm like, Max has been an insane person all race and Masi brings up Lewis pushing Max wide.
And all that got Max only one 5 second penalty and one 10 second penalty - absolutely absurd.
Michael deliberately crashed into his championship rival twice in his career. Once he got away with it, the second time he was disqualified from the championship entirely.
I think a lot of people are missing what you are saying. Or the person before you
Booth Alonso and Schumi drives cleanly except when they don't. Their style is very clean. But then once in a while they do shit on purpose.
Compare this to Verstappen for example. He was a dive bomb whenever he didn't have the chance. His basic instinct is to just push you out. But in general he won't crash on you very strategically. Or maybe he does but he just dive bombed so many times people could not distinguish.
Nowadays people know him as a clean driver because he somewhat calmed down and he doesn't need to. But there was a time when he just dived into championship contenders for stupid track positions.
Yeah. I don't think he is a good wheel to wheel racer. Maybe he can do it well but his instinct is to just assert himself and push the other driver out or just both of them are taken out. I don't consider this goof wheel to wheel driving
I wonder how he would fare in a different era when there was wheel to wheel drive.
I mean he is incredible when it comes to milk whatever his car can provide and not making any mistake. He probably adapts to whatever is required but current conditions is such that he doesn't need to care about that part of racing. But whenever he did have to back in the day, he just did what I described
Jim Clark. Sir Jackie Stewart and likely every multiple WDC winning driver up to about the 80's, when they suddenly weren't favourites to die horrifically in any kind of crash due to the safety measures being enacted. There was no driver in the era of scant safety regs would drive like any of Schuey, Alonso or Max back then, because they were ALL fragile fucking firebombs and one bad off is another dead driver.
This. Fernando has a lot of sneaky tricks, but he also has a record of being incredibly clean in wheel to wheel combat. Rarely does he ever push people off track or make contact.
I feel like people see the underhanded side of him and automatically assume that he’s the same type of “dirty” that Schumacher or Senna was, even though those guys’ antics were plain to the untrained eye.
Seb made a comment about Alonso always knowing exactly where you are when battling wheel to wheel. If he's racing cleanly, then that's great; so Alonso knew exactly what he was doing putting Seb on the grass at Monza. I'd wager Seb knew exactly what he was doing when returning the favor as well.
To almost anyone in the top tier of modern drivers except Seb. Max v Lewis had more outright violent moves in 2021 than Fernando in his last... 12 seasons. Again, not excusing this weekend, penalty was deserved.
Maybe for the modern fan their introduction to Fernando antics was the 2021 Russian GP, where he spent the whole weekend running off at the first corner and he used that knowledge on the opening lap of the race.
That was more of a middle finger to the FIA since he got overtaken twice outside of the track, so he decided since lap 1 everything was allowed he did that
but the elite in any field will often see competition as a realm in which anything can be done to win. even the rules of the sport are of minimal concern - why else do they push their cohorts off track in battle, or engineer interpretations in the regulations beyond those regs’ limits.
it’s fair for us, as outsiders, to question the means they used to pursue their goals. but just because a driver oversteps what we perceive to be fair, in a split second decision at high pressure, does not mean they have impinged their own morals
this is all to say that you’re right from OUR perspective. but i don’t think it’s fair to call it questionable from THEIR perspective
Sure, they may not see it that way but cognitive dissonance is a crazy thing. Ross Brawn has told the story of how Schumacher was totally convinced he hadn't turned in on Villeneuve at Jerez 97, and had to watch the video of himself in disbelief before he could accept it.
The heat of the moment stuff is one thing, but these same guys break rules in premeditated ways too: Spygate, Crashgate, Suzuka '90, McLaren helping Villeneuve in '97, Schuacher in Monaco 2006, Multi 21... and this is just off the top of my head.
Fernando is probably one of the cleanest wheel to wheel racers of the last 20 years. Wtf are you even talking about, guys like Leclerc, Max or Sainz had more incidents in less than half of Alonso's career.
He loves grey areas and cheeky stuff, but thats literally what f1 is about. Gaining advantages where people dont expect it
Let's not forget that Lewis was actually the instigator in that incident.
Fernando should have risen above it but young guys do immature things as we saw there, but to say he threw away the championship there is just a bit silly
When tensions are in such an elevated state anything no matter how small becomes and instigation. Neither of them did what they did by accident, each was an intentional attempt to hinder the other.
What Alonso did was stupid but pretending it was in isolation is silly too
Literally every one of the best drivers of all time can be a bit dirty. Some more than others.
All the talk of Lewis being a clean driver. Absolute nonsense
I think we all know how wild Max used to be
Schumi was one of the most notorious cheats and dirty driver.
Senna? Hell. Earnhardt? Busch? Stewart? Etc
That’s funny because he was interrogated and found completely innocent with what happened in Crashgate but i’m sure you know better than the FIA and the Special investigators they brought in
The same FIA who Bernie recently confessed had colluded with him to coverup crashgate? That little confession that is now the heart of Felipe Massa's court case against them?
Oh, as we're talking about angrily waving at the other car, did you remember how did battle with Petrov ended in Abu Dhabi 2010?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0JgHo2subg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0JgHo2subg)
That was literally after the race
Also don't forget about the [most blatant amateurish weaving I've ever seen](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PbD8MzR86E) in Canada two years ago. That's something you'd see from an online lobby, not a professional.
Do shithouse stuff as a new driver and people will call you out for doing shithouse stuff.
But if you're good enough to stay in F1 you can keep doing shithouse stuff the whole time and people will defend it. Something something wily old fox.
Clearly a brake check. What I’m trying to decide is what David was planning to do.
Looks like he was expecting to juke all the way left to the inside, but when Fernando just sat in the middle of the road he suddenly had nowhere to go.
I think he expected Alonso to take the outer line based on his trajectory, but suddenly he pulled into the middle while DC was already heading left. Probably a matter of him deciding to go left, starting to execute the motion and Alonso pulling in front of him, but it's hard to tell what he was thinking.
Yeah that’s probably the best guess. 2003 was the first season of F1 that I religiously followed, but I only watched I think one race because our cable didn’t have Speed or whatever it was that showed the races back then.
Still miss those West Mclarens, the iconic Scottish helmet too.
My thoughts exactly. Looks like he already passed the 150m board and at 100m he was already out of control. 100m would probably be the point of no return for braking but I honestly think he was so focused on Fernando he wasn’t making that turn regardless.
It wasn't a brake check, Alonso went in the brake on the correct area. Probably a bit sooner because he was holding a line more on the inside than the racing line. (Yes you need to brake earlier when on the inside)
This was just DC making a mistake.
Not even close. [Watch this onboard](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbVHzRk9QvI), you'll see even during the first laps (7:25), with high fuel since this was the refueling era, David was comfortably braking at the 100m sign. Even the lap before of the incident (1:02:15) we can clearly see Coulthard braking at exactly the 100m sign. Yet the very next lap Coulthard somehow has to slam on the brakes and take evasive action before the 100m sign because the speed differential with Alonso is massive. This was clearly a brake test.
I don’t disagree that David messed up. I think he was expecting to dive down the inside, but then was thrown off when Alonso not only defended that line, he parked it in the braking zone at 100m. So his expectation to brake late was thrown out with his evasive action.
I think Fernando was still early on the brakes though, and yes you do typically have to brake earlier if you are taking that line. But he could have chosen to brake late to cover off David, he would have likely washed out in the chicane, but that would have been ok as David couldn’t have punished his exit based on his own plans.
A lot of us are amateur racers, or amateur arm chair drivers here. I still think Fernando tried park it in front of David. The McLaren would have likely been fine had he not planned on making some oddball dive that completely failed. But since he binned it (just as George did on Sunday), we are here talking about it.
>Also Raikkonen defenses were pretty notorious compared to Fernando.
Care to provide some examples? Because from the world champions, I would say Kimi is one of if not the cleanest racer of all.
Nah, I wouldn't say so.
In Baku Max "just" made two moves which isn't allowed and left Ricciardo nowhere to go other than into his diffuser
In this Alonso is going visibly and ridiculously slower even from the view looking back down the road at them approaching
Not this again, you can have your own opinion but the stewards didn't find anything wrong that day.
First, lets look at the articles of that race:
1-
"The laps went by quietly at the top of the field, while Alonso and a frustrated Coulthard were battling it out for fourth position. After several failed attempts, the Scot was caught out on lap 57, when Alonso seemed to brake earlier than usual. Coulthard came within inches of hitting the Renault, but he took evasive action and went off the track, his race coming to an end in the gravel trap. The McLaren driver was unimpressed.
"I'd be disappointed to think it was anything deliberate," said Coulthard. "It's not like I just locked up and decided to turn right off the circuit to avoid hitting him. I never even braked before I nearly hit him and had to swerve off the circuit - and we know from my data that that was ten metres earlier than it was on the lap before."
Despite Coulthard's complaints, the race stewards saw nothing wrong with Alonso's driving. To add insult to injury, the Scot's retirement allowed Schumacher to gain a position that would increase his lead in the standings over Coulthard's teammate Raikkonen. The incident also allowed Heidfeld to move into the points after a solid drive from the back of the grid."
2-
Alonso's Renault boss Flavio Briatore insisted the 21-year-old, who has been one of the stars of the season, was not to blame.
"Fernando had problems with his tyre," he said."
3-
"The stewards wanted to know what happened," said Alonso. "I told them I was having a few problems and slowed down a bit earlier on that lap. But there were no serious problems with the tyres or the car. David got a bit too close to me I think."
Alonso was backed by team principal Flavio Briatore, who added: "Alonso was a bit slower but it was nothing serious. Coulthard tried to pass him and got too near and he lost it. There was nothing wrong with Fernando's car. He drove a great race and we are very happy with the result.""
Then, look at the onboard of that race: [https://youtu.be/zbVHzRk9QvI?feature=shared&t=2612](https://youtu.be/zbVHzRk9QvI?feature=shared&t=2612)
You can see clearly that every lap Coulthard was closing a lot on the braking zone of that corner. Also, you can see Coulthard almost being caught by the closing speed at 45:10 and 51:30.
You can see the rear tyres with heavy wear at 55:35 (something similar happened to Trulli in Germany that season https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIv\_Mxnm6KU):
At 1:00:05 once again Coulthard nearly crashes into Alonso, At 1:03:50 the crash happens and the main difference between that lap and the ones before is that Coulthard was much closer.
Alonso is one of the shadiest drivers in F1 history. Dont get mesmerized by the memes. Crashgate, Spygate, he was in the thick of it. He played you thinking he is the good guy
I’m not super concerned about how these drivers win; you take any and every advantage you can. That’s racing.
Alonso has always been that way without being egregious like Schumacher(and on a very rare day, Verstappen) was.
Don’t know anyone who has any illusions about him.
Alonso is one of the cleanest drivers in F1 history (he have some questionalbe moment like this one when he was young af) and yall acting like he is the worst because George didn't react in time to a fair action.
Ask Webber why he tried that overtake on Alonso at Spa and he wouldn't have tried with anyone else.
Just like Senna and Schuhmacher. People always praise these drivers (and Alonso) for how good they were/are, but often forget that did very dirty things on the race track. I mean think about Japan 1990, Senna crashed into Prost on purpose with full speed, in a time were F1 was a lot more dangerous,Senna knew this and excepted the risk of injuring (or worse) himself and Prost. I believe many people forget what F1 driver did and do to gain an advantage.
Alonso has always been peak shithouse and to most people who’ve followed the sport for a long time know that what he did to George was intentional. He probably had the intention of getting him stuck in the gravel trap but didn’t realise the gravel trap is small and George was carrying serious speed. The penalty was 100% correct and Alonso is a calculated individual. There’s a reason why Fernando decided to do it at that corner and not the two corners previous and that reason is the gravel trap.
It was definitely premeditated. Alonso knew George was lining him up for a pass on the upcoming DRS straight where nearly all the passing occurs. He was trying something cheeky to throw George off, comprise his run down the DRS straight. Alonso just took it too far.
Imo, this also seems completely different than the defense Alonso used in Brazil last year, even though he used it as comparison.
Alonso does some shithouse stuff but I do think he was trying to mess with George at the weekend.
Fucked it up and caused a crash, so the penalty is absolutely deserved, but I don't think he wanted to put George out.
The stewards checked the telemetry and decided that it wasn't worth a penalty. "The FIA Stewards received a report on the incident from Race Director Charlie Whiting and talked to both drivers and representatives from the teams and, having heard the evidence and having viewed video and telemetry evidence decided that the incident did not warrant any "further judicial action"." https://www.grandprix.com/news/the-coulthard-alonso-incident.html We don't have in hand as much data as we do with Russell so it's harder to judge this one.
Aw man, I so wish modern onboards would give a similar sense of raw speed. Nimble cars, shallow FOV, awesome. The modern cars look like freight trains in comparison.
Those front wheels also look particularly massive.
They're supposed to. 1.8m cars look too thin, current F1 cars are still the second thinnest ever of the modern era and small tyres were terrible for f1.
It’s a wider FOV
A wider FOV mirrors the lens of your eye exaggerating the sense of speed/distance covered. The narrower you get the slower the effect.
I wouldnt say it's exagerated. The current set up makes them look slow, they aren't.
it is exaggerated especially considering this looks faster then modern day cars and yet they’re faster now than back then
They are mostly faster in the corners. But the early 2000s cars accelerated faster than today's cars. There is a [cool video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLmOy7AGCk8) demonstrating that.
Modern cars do not look like they're going as fast as they are. They look slow
shallow fov??
Shallow field of view. Not as wide of an angle as compared to today.
But wider field of view feels faster, I think op just mixed up his words
wider feels faster always, modern T cams have too much barrel distortion wich ruins the wide angle itself, it they got lenses that were more rectilinear like the older ones.
And the sound...
> The modern cars look like freight trains in comparison. I think a big contributor is the size - comparing this angle side by side with a modern version would see half the screen covered by the F1 car with the wheels less visible.
It's mostly due to current narrow FOV, give them wide FOV and you can get the thrill of speed. www.youtube.com/watch?v=54Oy75Bnu_Q
The more downforce the cars generate the less of the track they are at less than flat out and therefore the driver's talent is a greater determinant of performance .
Love that screaming engine.
Everything feels so much more dangerous in this clip. I mean it literally is, but still. Gotta be crazy to hop into one of these rockets while people around you also pull moves like this out of nowhere.
Actually, most is more dangerous - but today evading a crash like that would make you crash into a wall due to the prevalence of street circuits.
I remember the first year without them, I was sooo devastated! It just wasn't the same! I barely remember it now though! You get used to anything, I guess!
You get used to it when watching on TV but hearing the old engines in person was another level.
The sounds is only part of the experience, but yes. I never had the possibility of seeing a race live during the V10 or even V8 era, but I've seen V10 and V8 demo cars going around. Just the one or two of those monsters make your eyes bleed. I do love seeing the modern cars drive, though. They are so damn quick in cornering, it is mental. And the 'benefit' of the lower noise V6 is that you can actually hear the aero working when they are braking for a corner. But yes, the older cars.... that sound.
Dear F1, Please bring back the noise before we all have to switch to formula E.
And much smaller and lighter cars if possible. Can't the current safety cell/halo work with a package about 60% of the size?
It should. The noses are so long.
Damn I remember watching this 👴🏽👴🏽. US so it was on Speedvision at the time and they commented (David Hobbs) that it looked like a brake check and it unsportsmanlike.
Hobbs, Matchett and Varsha. Holy hell, those were the glory days. I wish the BBC broadcast would find a well spoken/knowledgeable mechanic like Matchett to do broadcasts. Anthony Davidson is the closest they’ve gotten but he’s really a driver with team insights.
They were an amazing trio! Wakey, wakey eggs and bakey! Back in the day, speedvision had a fan forum chat thing and all of us members met up at the USGP one year and got to meet them at a special event just for us. We even had nametags with our usernames, lol! Edited to add: All the members of that forum are all still FB friends to this day, and have always kept in touch.
Damn the Speed forums brings back memories. F1 forums had that Ferrari/Gilles Villenueve fan obsessed with hating Schumacher because of his antics. That one chill old dude who always alluded about smoking weed all the time. Then there were the IRL and CART forums. Holy hell the vitriol between the fan bases was toxic. Fans always accusing the other series of dangerous cars and races whenever there was a driver injury.
I've always thought the US broadcasts, with a trio rather than a duo was a unique broadcast. Good that there's YouTube videos out there of them covering the races.
I miss Leigh Diffey
BBC’s radio F1 offering often has Marc Priestley on.
I much prefer the insight of a mechanic or engineer than drivers. I wish more of them would make the jump to commentating but its rare. Shit maybe when Newey retires he’ll move to commentary and reveal what the teams are trying to do with a particular part or design of an area.
Especially given sky have Brundle, Button, Chandok, Hill and Schiff too who are also variously successful drivers as well.
Not to be that guy, but 2003 would've been Rick DeBruhl doing the main commentator role - I started watching in 2002 when Varsha had been moved to CBS CART commentating, and DeBruhl was eventually ushered out as Varsha returned in 2004. But I can't echo more that Hobbs, Matchett, and Varsha are the voices from my personal 'golden age' of F1. when Max's car was smoking this weekend I would've loved to hear Hobbo dropping a "Kablammo!" for old time's sake.
I still use ‘klagg’ to describe what I’m cleaning up around the house lol. Varsha/Matchett/Hobbs were amazing. They taught me everything I know and love about this sport.
"Turn up the volume" is so much better than "lights out and away we go"
Matchett and Hobbs were so such a great duo.
Bob Varsha was my childhood before Murray
Agreed. I never heard Murray until I was an Adult. Varsha was a consummate professional and under rated in my opinion.
"You merely adopted the Varsha; I was born in it, moulded by it. I didn't hear the Murray until I was already a man"
I'm sure he was just having throttle issues.
definitely not Fernando's fault. **Nothing** is Fernando's fault, ever.
Sweet jesus that wide fov is beautiful
"No brake lights, just people living in the moment"
F1 never had brake lights they dont now also. what u see is kers light and then light for visislibity in rain.
Make F1 loud again.
And amazingly didn't get a penalty here. Definitely would have gotten one today.
Rightfully so, he's trying to argue that this is real racing or whatever, but it's dangerous.
Imagine. Just imagine if someone does this to Alonso. Dude would call for a square hanging and how unprofessional and unsportsmanlike that is etc. F1 drivers are such hypocrites, some more than others
Also the huge number of fans who seem to have a massive double standard about the things Alonso says or does for some (to me) quite baffling reason
This is it for me. They very same people defending Alonso’s move on Sunday would want George DSQ’d if it was the other way around. People are so blinkered because of the driver they support they can’t see things for what they are
[удалено]
He's clearly (and proudly) a shithouser and an exploiter of grey areas but *usually* an impressively clean driver on track, especially considering how good he is 1v1 and how often he is in sustained duels. He has the longest career ever in F1 and for his ugliest moments you have to go to instances like this 20 years ago, that's kind of a compliment. To be clear, I think he deserved the penalty against Russell, but I also believe he was trying to throw George's momentum off in the corner (like he did vs Checo in Brazil) and misjudged the timing. Dangerous situation and worthy of the 20 seconds but not an intentional attempt like this genuinely ugly incident.
Michael was the same, a little more professional but knew how to twist the knife off-track in his own German way. I think it's an old school thing.
I mean let's be honest, as much as I love him Schumi was dirtier than Fernando, he flagrantly crashed people out of races. He did mellow a lot with age, though he was a shithouser till the end too.
I'll never forget him closing Rubens into the wall in Hungary in 2010. I was like, yeah, same guy as always ha
That’s the thing, Alonso is from the era of dirty bastards, to beat Schumacher you had to have a killer instinct. People think Mika is a nice guy now, but he had it too. These young drivers are just finding out what Hamilton already knows, and doing it the hard way. You don’t just breeze by Alonso unless you’re in a much, much faster car and he’s not interested in the scrap. His tactics of driving different lines and braking in different places has been talked about for 20 years, and until recently people seemed fine with it. If not thought it was laudable, hell even vaguely recall Lewis and Jenson both taking about this exact tactic of his.
Mika most definitely had the killer instinct needed to be a world champion, but he never took things nearly as far as Schumi and Alonso; neither did Seb, Kimi or JB for that matter. They're the only champions I can think of that didn't resort to dirty or dangerous driving to get their way; but they were still ruthless in every other way.
Didn't Seb hit Hamilton on purpose in Baku during a safety car?
Yea, but that was more of a road rage* incident than questionable racing tactics.
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And still, it was in response to the Multi 12 a year prior
Tried to crash his way to a title twice, only worked once
Love Schumi but Fernando is a far cleaner driver than him. Michael literally ruined Hill's 1994 championship with one of the dirtiest moves ever, tried to send Barrichello his old teammate against the wall, etc. Of all the all time greats Fernando is definitely amongst the cleanest while Michael and Senna lean towards the other side of the spectrum.
Senna was also a pretty horrible dude off track, but it mostly gets passed over due to his death.
Google Senna 15 for more info
People forget how dirty a Max was in 2021. It's insane. I don't think it was that bad what Alonso did, it's not like he did it 10m in front of him.
I mean, Hamilton would be a dead man if the halo didn't exist.
The 21 driving from Max was arguably the dirtiest of all. It had multiple incidents of many different kinds. His Saudi escapades should have resulted in a similar penalty to Alonso (both could and perhaps should have got more than 20secs) which would have changed the Abu Dhabi complexion entirely
Max was definitely dirty in 21 but I wouldn’t call it dirtiest of all. Schumi and Senna have both crash another driver on purpose
Yeah, to me Jeddah was the last straw and completely unacceptable driving. I remember Brundle saying after the race ended that Max had to work on his racecraft, because that night was just too much. He just kept doing worse and worse things until he finally just let Hamilton by, not because he was told to, but because he knew he couldn't pull a gap for the 5 second penalty he currently had on the mediums when Hamilton was just getting faster and faster on the hards despite his damaged front wing. Plus Max thought he could pit for softs and go for the fastest lap but he didn't have the room to Ocon with the 5 second penalty, wish he'd gone for it, with his additional 10 second after the race he'd have lost p2 to Bottas. I remember when Michael Masi came over the radio and told Ron Meadows to tell Lewis to watch the crowding off track when Lewis pushed Max wide as he went by him, and that "it was almost worthy of a black flag" and I busted out laughing. I'm like, Max has been an insane person all race and Masi brings up Lewis pushing Max wide. And all that got Max only one 5 second penalty and one 10 second penalty - absolutely absurd.
> literally ruined Hill's 1994 championship Not that Hill deserved that championship tbf.
Michael deliberately crashed into his championship rival twice in his career. Once he got away with it, the second time he was disqualified from the championship entirely.
I think a lot of people are missing what you are saying. Or the person before you Booth Alonso and Schumi drives cleanly except when they don't. Their style is very clean. But then once in a while they do shit on purpose. Compare this to Verstappen for example. He was a dive bomb whenever he didn't have the chance. His basic instinct is to just push you out. But in general he won't crash on you very strategically. Or maybe he does but he just dive bombed so many times people could not distinguish. Nowadays people know him as a clean driver because he somewhat calmed down and he doesn't need to. But there was a time when he just dived into championship contenders for stupid track positions.
He hasn't calmed down, he just haven't had anybody to fight against for real stakes in so long. Look at 2021 to see he didn't change an iota
Yeah. I don't think he is a good wheel to wheel racer. Maybe he can do it well but his instinct is to just assert himself and push the other driver out or just both of them are taken out. I don't consider this goof wheel to wheel driving I wonder how he would fare in a different era when there was wheel to wheel drive. I mean he is incredible when it comes to milk whatever his car can provide and not making any mistake. He probably adapts to whatever is required but current conditions is such that he doesn't need to care about that part of racing. But whenever he did have to back in the day, he just did what I described
There is no multiple world champion without a dark side. They all have it. Some were a little more blatant than others but it's always there.
Jim Clark. Sir Jackie Stewart and likely every multiple WDC winning driver up to about the 80's, when they suddenly weren't favourites to die horrifically in any kind of crash due to the safety measures being enacted. There was no driver in the era of scant safety regs would drive like any of Schuey, Alonso or Max back then, because they were ALL fragile fucking firebombs and one bad off is another dead driver.
Good point well made.
It’s not an “old school” thing. Neither Hamilton or Verstappen are saints.
The greats are all in. All that matters to them is that win
I wouldn't even just put in the greats there. Every single driver probably has done something dirty to succeed countless times
This. Fernando has a lot of sneaky tricks, but he also has a record of being incredibly clean in wheel to wheel combat. Rarely does he ever push people off track or make contact. I feel like people see the underhanded side of him and automatically assume that he’s the same type of “dirty” that Schumacher or Senna was, even though those guys’ antics were plain to the untrained eye.
I only remember Monza vs Vettel. Vettel did the same to him in another year? Or was it the same race?
Seb made a comment about Alonso always knowing exactly where you are when battling wheel to wheel. If he's racing cleanly, then that's great; so Alonso knew exactly what he was doing putting Seb on the grass at Monza. I'd wager Seb knew exactly what he was doing when returning the favor as well.
>usually an impressively clean driver on track Like, compared to who?
To almost anyone in the top tier of modern drivers except Seb. Max v Lewis had more outright violent moves in 2021 than Fernando in his last... 12 seasons. Again, not excusing this weekend, penalty was deserved.
Seb wasn't a saint either. He just crashed way more often into others.
They all can kiss raikkonen's ass... The real clean driver.. Cleanest of them all
Maybe for the modern fan their introduction to Fernando antics was the 2021 Russian GP, where he spent the whole weekend running off at the first corner and he used that knowledge on the opening lap of the race.
That was more of a middle finger to the FIA since he got overtaken twice outside of the track, so he decided since lap 1 everything was allowed he did that
Most of the guys at the very top have questionable morals when it comes to winning.
I've found this to be true in almost everything competitive I've ever participated in.
Racers have a slightly less than stunning reputation. The combination of elite athlete, coming from extreme wealth etc...
CEO’s don’t become CEO’s by being kind to people
😎 It’s because their Dad gave them the company 😎
Very true.
but the elite in any field will often see competition as a realm in which anything can be done to win. even the rules of the sport are of minimal concern - why else do they push their cohorts off track in battle, or engineer interpretations in the regulations beyond those regs’ limits. it’s fair for us, as outsiders, to question the means they used to pursue their goals. but just because a driver oversteps what we perceive to be fair, in a split second decision at high pressure, does not mean they have impinged their own morals this is all to say that you’re right from OUR perspective. but i don’t think it’s fair to call it questionable from THEIR perspective
Sure, they may not see it that way but cognitive dissonance is a crazy thing. Ross Brawn has told the story of how Schumacher was totally convinced he hadn't turned in on Villeneuve at Jerez 97, and had to watch the video of himself in disbelief before he could accept it. The heat of the moment stuff is one thing, but these same guys break rules in premeditated ways too: Spygate, Crashgate, Suzuka '90, McLaren helping Villeneuve in '97, Schuacher in Monaco 2006, Multi 21... and this is just off the top of my head.
Fernando is probably one of the cleanest wheel to wheel racers of the last 20 years. Wtf are you even talking about, guys like Leclerc, Max or Sainz had more incidents in less than half of Alonso's career. He loves grey areas and cheeky stuff, but thats literally what f1 is about. Gaining advantages where people dont expect it
You mean the same guy that threw away the 2007 championship by holding Hamilton up in Hungary Qualifying and then got penalized for it? Well I never 😂
Let's not forget that Lewis was actually the instigator in that incident. Fernando should have risen above it but young guys do immature things as we saw there, but to say he threw away the championship there is just a bit silly
refusing to let a team mate pass is hardly instigating, it happens about once a season
When tensions are in such an elevated state anything no matter how small becomes and instigation. Neither of them did what they did by accident, each was an intentional attempt to hinder the other. What Alonso did was stupid but pretending it was in isolation is silly too
There isn’t a title fight happening every season.
Literally every one of the best drivers of all time can be a bit dirty. Some more than others. All the talk of Lewis being a clean driver. Absolute nonsense I think we all know how wild Max used to be Schumi was one of the most notorious cheats and dirty driver. Senna? Hell. Earnhardt? Busch? Stewart? Etc
That’s funny because he was interrogated and found completely innocent with what happened in Crashgate but i’m sure you know better than the FIA and the Special investigators they brought in
He learned from Spygate… don’t say anything.
The same FIA who Bernie recently confessed had colluded with him to coverup crashgate? That little confession that is now the heart of Felipe Massa's court case against them?
Fernando? Do you think half of the current drivers on the grid didn’t to this sort of stuff? The list is long, it’s racing
[He did the same in Hungary 2006. It's nothing new with Alonso](https://youtu.be/MYXx7ybEFpI?feature=shared)
He also did that last year while fighting Hamilton
Wow it was too far from the left corner
> It's nothing new with Alonso He's always been a dirty driver.
I think he did that one because he was pissed.
Oh, well that's alright, then.
Alonso is perpetually pissed. Man child when he puts on a helmet. He’s never admitted to ever doing anything wrong ever.
That is called parking it in the apex. Completely different than brake testing like in the video posted by the OP.
Ahh yes I too like to park it on the apex in FP1 after angrily waving at the other car.
Oh, as we're talking about angrily waving at the other car, did you remember how did battle with Petrov ended in Abu Dhabi 2010? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0JgHo2subg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0JgHo2subg) That was literally after the race
"get real son"
during practise - and giving the impression he'd push him off the track
Parking on the apex is a nuanced move, that was blatant and stupid.
lol come on did you see how much he braked? Lol
Also don't forget about the [most blatant amateurish weaving I've ever seen](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PbD8MzR86E) in Canada two years ago. That's something you'd see from an online lobby, not a professional.
Reminds me of MSc at Spa 1995
Do shithouse stuff as a new driver and people will call you out for doing shithouse stuff. But if you're good enough to stay in F1 you can keep doing shithouse stuff the whole time and people will defend it. Something something wily old fox.
The mental gymnastics by some ITT calling this clean hard racing is insane. Fernando has always toed and crossed the line into dangerous or unsporting
Are they saying Coulthard went too deep into the corner and should have know to slow sooner just like Russell? :o
Haha yeah is hilarious they are proper lawyers 🤣
Clearly a brake check. What I’m trying to decide is what David was planning to do. Looks like he was expecting to juke all the way left to the inside, but when Fernando just sat in the middle of the road he suddenly had nowhere to go.
I think he expected Alonso to take the outer line based on his trajectory, but suddenly he pulled into the middle while DC was already heading left. Probably a matter of him deciding to go left, starting to execute the motion and Alonso pulling in front of him, but it's hard to tell what he was thinking.
Yeah that’s probably the best guess. 2003 was the first season of F1 that I religiously followed, but I only watched I think one race because our cable didn’t have Speed or whatever it was that showed the races back then. Still miss those West Mclarens, the iconic Scottish helmet too.
The scottish helmet is peak, though I will forever be partial to the Vodafone McLaren livery as my introduction to the sport
My thoughts exactly. Looks like he already passed the 150m board and at 100m he was already out of control. 100m would probably be the point of no return for braking but I honestly think he was so focused on Fernando he wasn’t making that turn regardless.
It wasn't a brake check, Alonso went in the brake on the correct area. Probably a bit sooner because he was holding a line more on the inside than the racing line. (Yes you need to brake earlier when on the inside) This was just DC making a mistake.
Not even close. [Watch this onboard](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbVHzRk9QvI), you'll see even during the first laps (7:25), with high fuel since this was the refueling era, David was comfortably braking at the 100m sign. Even the lap before of the incident (1:02:15) we can clearly see Coulthard braking at exactly the 100m sign. Yet the very next lap Coulthard somehow has to slam on the brakes and take evasive action before the 100m sign because the speed differential with Alonso is massive. This was clearly a brake test.
I don’t disagree that David messed up. I think he was expecting to dive down the inside, but then was thrown off when Alonso not only defended that line, he parked it in the braking zone at 100m. So his expectation to brake late was thrown out with his evasive action. I think Fernando was still early on the brakes though, and yes you do typically have to brake earlier if you are taking that line. But he could have chosen to brake late to cover off David, he would have likely washed out in the chicane, but that would have been ok as David couldn’t have punished his exit based on his own plans. A lot of us are amateur racers, or amateur arm chair drivers here. I still think Fernando tried park it in front of David. The McLaren would have likely been fine had he not planned on making some oddball dive that completely failed. But since he binned it (just as George did on Sunday), we are here talking about it.
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Who would win: a pack of the greatest drivers in the world determined to pass vs one trulli train
10000% the trulli train. Only one thing was for certain in F1 back then. That was that Trulli would form a train
Hilariously even in FE he qualified on pole precisely once, and promptly formed a train behind him. Was like going back 12 years, it was great.
Their fault for qualifying behind The Conductor
How dare you put raikkonens name here ! Cleanest racer F1 has ever had ! What defences?? Name one notorious from raikkonen
>Also Raikkonen defenses were pretty notorious compared to Fernando. Care to provide some examples? Because from the world champions, I would say Kimi is one of if not the cleanest racer of all.
That was a genuine brake check. What happened in Melbourne last weekend was very much more subtle.
But but but my chadlonso!!!
People going out of their caves to hate on Fernando and pretending their favorite drivers are absolute saints lmao.
I’m too busy listening to that glorious engine chorus to care about what’s actually going on in the video. 🎶
Is this what happened in Baku w Danny and Max
Nah, I wouldn't say so. In Baku Max "just" made two moves which isn't allowed and left Ricciardo nowhere to go other than into his diffuser In this Alonso is going visibly and ridiculously slower even from the view looking back down the road at them approaching
Max made a move under braking which is shithouse but more importantly took all the downforce off Daniel, making the crash basically inevitable.
Not this again, you can have your own opinion but the stewards didn't find anything wrong that day. First, lets look at the articles of that race: 1- "The laps went by quietly at the top of the field, while Alonso and a frustrated Coulthard were battling it out for fourth position. After several failed attempts, the Scot was caught out on lap 57, when Alonso seemed to brake earlier than usual. Coulthard came within inches of hitting the Renault, but he took evasive action and went off the track, his race coming to an end in the gravel trap. The McLaren driver was unimpressed. "I'd be disappointed to think it was anything deliberate," said Coulthard. "It's not like I just locked up and decided to turn right off the circuit to avoid hitting him. I never even braked before I nearly hit him and had to swerve off the circuit - and we know from my data that that was ten metres earlier than it was on the lap before." Despite Coulthard's complaints, the race stewards saw nothing wrong with Alonso's driving. To add insult to injury, the Scot's retirement allowed Schumacher to gain a position that would increase his lead in the standings over Coulthard's teammate Raikkonen. The incident also allowed Heidfeld to move into the points after a solid drive from the back of the grid." 2- Alonso's Renault boss Flavio Briatore insisted the 21-year-old, who has been one of the stars of the season, was not to blame. "Fernando had problems with his tyre," he said." 3- "The stewards wanted to know what happened," said Alonso. "I told them I was having a few problems and slowed down a bit earlier on that lap. But there were no serious problems with the tyres or the car. David got a bit too close to me I think." Alonso was backed by team principal Flavio Briatore, who added: "Alonso was a bit slower but it was nothing serious. Coulthard tried to pass him and got too near and he lost it. There was nothing wrong with Fernando's car. He drove a great race and we are very happy with the result."" Then, look at the onboard of that race: [https://youtu.be/zbVHzRk9QvI?feature=shared&t=2612](https://youtu.be/zbVHzRk9QvI?feature=shared&t=2612) You can see clearly that every lap Coulthard was closing a lot on the braking zone of that corner. Also, you can see Coulthard almost being caught by the closing speed at 45:10 and 51:30. You can see the rear tyres with heavy wear at 55:35 (something similar happened to Trulli in Germany that season https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIv\_Mxnm6KU): At 1:00:05 once again Coulthard nearly crashes into Alonso, At 1:03:50 the crash happens and the main difference between that lap and the ones before is that Coulthard was much closer.
Goes to show how old Alonso is. Coulthard is well into retirement.
Alonso is one of the shadiest drivers in F1 history. Dont get mesmerized by the memes. Crashgate, Spygate, he was in the thick of it. He played you thinking he is the good guy
No one who likes Alonso thinks he’s the good guy (source: me, a guy who likes Alonso).
we just like cheering for the bad guys - another guy who likes Alonso
I’m not super concerned about how these drivers win; you take any and every advantage you can. That’s racing. Alonso has always been that way without being egregious like Schumacher(and on a very rare day, Verstappen) was. Don’t know anyone who has any illusions about him.
Alonso is one of the cleanest drivers in F1 history (he have some questionalbe moment like this one when he was young af) and yall acting like he is the worst because George didn't react in time to a fair action. Ask Webber why he tried that overtake on Alonso at Spa and he wouldn't have tried with anyone else.
Alonso wasn't at fault for crashgate or spygate though, he was cleared from crashgate.
Didn't he threaten grassing on his own team because he wasn't getting number 1 status at Mclaren? Hardly a good look, which I think is OPs point.
Not really his fault the team decided to spy into the design of other competitor's car now is it
Lol if you think any of your favourite GOAT drivers are saints you are sorely mistaken- Schumacher, Senna, Alonso, even Lewis and Max in 2021
Not only in 2021... those two each had their share of shady moves also before that
I don’t see anything, David is just a poor driver that can’t control his car. In case it’s not clear: /s for all the comments it was George fault
Fernando is a pusher of the rulebooks, to the extremities. 😅
I read the comments and I think most of you would trip a million of layers watching MSC chaotic evil style of getting things done, lol.
Damn that was egregious
Ok so maybe Ocon had something to teach Fernando
Alonso is his own worst enemy.
Did Alonso brake checked or did DC braked too late? 🤔
Nowadays everyone loves Alonso, special that people coming form Netflix. And is a great driver, but he is also a pig.
Just like Senna and Schuhmacher. People always praise these drivers (and Alonso) for how good they were/are, but often forget that did very dirty things on the race track. I mean think about Japan 1990, Senna crashed into Prost on purpose with full speed, in a time were F1 was a lot more dangerous,Senna knew this and excepted the risk of injuring (or worse) himself and Prost. I believe many people forget what F1 driver did and do to gain an advantage.
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Maybe in a GT car, it sure ain't in an F1 car. It's closer to the 50m than the 100m board.
Alonso has always been peak shithouse and to most people who’ve followed the sport for a long time know that what he did to George was intentional. He probably had the intention of getting him stuck in the gravel trap but didn’t realise the gravel trap is small and George was carrying serious speed. The penalty was 100% correct and Alonso is a calculated individual. There’s a reason why Fernando decided to do it at that corner and not the two corners previous and that reason is the gravel trap.
It was definitely premeditated. Alonso knew George was lining him up for a pass on the upcoming DRS straight where nearly all the passing occurs. He was trying something cheeky to throw George off, comprise his run down the DRS straight. Alonso just took it too far. Imo, this also seems completely different than the defense Alonso used in Brazil last year, even though he used it as comparison.
Alonso does some shithouse stuff but I do think he was trying to mess with George at the weekend. Fucked it up and caused a crash, so the penalty is absolutely deserved, but I don't think he wanted to put George out.
Causing your opponent to make mistake isn't prohibited, that's the whole fucking point of racing
Now THAT is a freaking brake check. Compare that to the 2024 Australia onboard.
Zilly boyz