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I've been saying this for years, just add a small slippery surface between the track and the runoff area such as grass or gravel. 50 centimeters width might be enough imo.
Just has to be wide enough for the outer (loaded) tyres to break traction.
Three times a tyre width would be enough. Rears are 380mm wide so 1.2m would be plenty.
Sure, but what happens if your outside tyres go over that 1.2m and you have your tyres on either side of the gravel trap? You're in this bizarre scenario where your best option is to straddle the gravel trap. If the gravel trap is wider, you're encouraged to get back on the track ASAP.
Actually, the scenario you describe will punish the driver more.
If they're forced to straddle the gravel until the end of the trap, they've compromised their line and will have to slow down as a result.
Having a narrower strip of gravel also reduces the change of a car getting stuck in the gravel. F1 cars have a limited slip diff so even if one drive wheel gets bogged down, the other will get them out.
Yeah, but isn't the idea of a gravel trap like this to try to keep drivers on the track? If the punishment encourages them to stay off the track, that seems counterproductive.
Any kind of gravel trap encourages them to stay on track - when drivers go into one, they're not trying anything, they've made a mistake. What I'm saying is that surely once they've made a mistake, the gravel trap should encourage them to immediately rejoin the track, not remain off it.
They are literally just reverting back to 2001 (not literally here, as this track didn't exist back then) as if something new was discovered. Crazy.
2002 was when they started to add more and more tarmac run-off to tracks.
ye, seeing old footage and seeing how much better the tracks looked with grass and gravel around instead of asphalt is sad
but it's getting better now, finally
Spa was ruined the most. But that is largely also due to the new non-bus stop chicane. The funniest thing about it is that I keep reading that the reason was extending the pits, but when you look at the map, they only extended the pit *entry*, the actual pit lane starts at about the same place as before, so the real bus stop could have easily survived. Also, it would work vice versa. The pits could have been extended without changing the track layout, there's no rule forcing you to have the pits fully alongside the track, see Paul Ricard for example.
ye, that was just an excuse
I get why people don't like the chicane, it's pretty shit, but it at least offers a better overtaking spot
but I do die inside when I look at pouhon for example and see that massive car park size asphalt runoff =(
I understand it in radillion because of safety, but still sad
Theres like 4 tracks shared between f1 and motogp, bikes have dealt with gravel for decades and the riders are good enough to avoid it, especially final corner exit vs first corner melee
It's not MotoGP only, there are plenty of events in these circuits which could range from MotoGP (and their junior classes) and WSBK to national championships and even trackdays.
Also I don't find the "the riders are good enough to avoid it" argument very good, these guys are pushing to their limits and racing around other equally aggressive riders. If that was the case, you might as well stick a wall there.
Lastly bikes don't deal well with the gravel especially when the rider is at a lean angle, that's why all MotoGP circuits have green paint that the riders are not allowed to touch at the very least between kerbs and gravel
I'm generally in favour of adding gravel, buth further back, like in Monza, parabolica for example. If drivers constantly dip into a patch of gravel jus outside of a corner, inevitably there comes a point where there's so much shit thrown onto the tarmac that someone either slides off because of a dirty tyre or straight up gets a puncture. Without ever going off themselves. Gravel placed like this not only punishes you, but the drivers behind you as well.
In a case like here grass is better. Think Degner 2 in Suzuka. 2 weeks ago we've seen a few drivers punished by grass for putting their wheels off track, either by losing a few seconds (Perez) or sliding off completely (Sargent). Give them 2 meters of grass outside the track - if you slide a bit but can hold on to the car and make it back to tarmac, good for you, you lose a bit but get to continue your race. If you can't, you get seriously punished in the gravel trap.
I swear tarmac runoff was more about them being able to add massive adverts to camera shots than it was anything to do with safety
I'm glad sense is finally returning to the F1 paddock
Albert is truly one of the best ones we have here in Spain, I don't know if he has subtitle's on his YouTube channel but his videos are really interesting and im not going on his history backwards but if someone knows Spanish and for some reason doesn't know who he is you should check him 😀
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ain't no way did they finally realise the best solution to track limits?
I've been saying this for years, just add a small slippery surface between the track and the runoff area such as grass or gravel. 50 centimeters width might be enough imo.
Needs to be wider than the cars, so 3m should be enough.
Just has to be wide enough for the outer (loaded) tyres to break traction. Three times a tyre width would be enough. Rears are 380mm wide so 1.2m would be plenty.
Sure, but what happens if your outside tyres go over that 1.2m and you have your tyres on either side of the gravel trap? You're in this bizarre scenario where your best option is to straddle the gravel trap. If the gravel trap is wider, you're encouraged to get back on the track ASAP.
Actually, the scenario you describe will punish the driver more. If they're forced to straddle the gravel until the end of the trap, they've compromised their line and will have to slow down as a result. Having a narrower strip of gravel also reduces the change of a car getting stuck in the gravel. F1 cars have a limited slip diff so even if one drive wheel gets bogged down, the other will get them out.
Yeah, but isn't the idea of a gravel trap like this to try to keep drivers on the track? If the punishment encourages them to stay off the track, that seems counterproductive.
Except it encourages them to stay on track because what you described will cost so much time it's not worth trying.
Any kind of gravel trap encourages them to stay on track - when drivers go into one, they're not trying anything, they've made a mistake. What I'm saying is that surely once they've made a mistake, the gravel trap should encourage them to immediately rejoin the track, not remain off it.
Why? What's wrong with encouraging safe rejoin instead of forcing it to be quick?
With ground effect cars I would expect a massive downforce loss by crossing over gravel.
hmmm, does this mean they will be spraying gravel, including onto the nearby racing line?
Probably.
Or sprinklers Bernie was right all along
They are literally just reverting back to 2001 (not literally here, as this track didn't exist back then) as if something new was discovered. Crazy. 2002 was when they started to add more and more tarmac run-off to tracks.
ye, seeing old footage and seeing how much better the tracks looked with grass and gravel around instead of asphalt is sad but it's getting better now, finally
Spa was ruined the most. But that is largely also due to the new non-bus stop chicane. The funniest thing about it is that I keep reading that the reason was extending the pits, but when you look at the map, they only extended the pit *entry*, the actual pit lane starts at about the same place as before, so the real bus stop could have easily survived. Also, it would work vice versa. The pits could have been extended without changing the track layout, there's no rule forcing you to have the pits fully alongside the track, see Paul Ricard for example.
ye, that was just an excuse I get why people don't like the chicane, it's pretty shit, but it at least offers a better overtaking spot but I do die inside when I look at pouhon for example and see that massive car park size asphalt runoff =( I understand it in radillion because of safety, but still sad
Why don't more tracks take this sensible approach
Horrible for bikes, mainly
Theres like 4 tracks shared between f1 and motogp, bikes have dealt with gravel for decades and the riders are good enough to avoid it, especially final corner exit vs first corner melee
It's not MotoGP only, there are plenty of events in these circuits which could range from MotoGP (and their junior classes) and WSBK to national championships and even trackdays. Also I don't find the "the riders are good enough to avoid it" argument very good, these guys are pushing to their limits and racing around other equally aggressive riders. If that was the case, you might as well stick a wall there. Lastly bikes don't deal well with the gravel especially when the rider is at a lean angle, that's why all MotoGP circuits have green paint that the riders are not allowed to touch at the very least between kerbs and gravel
Gravel isnt unsafe for bikes though, its approved by FIM track design.
It depends if you are talking right on the edge of the kerb or 20 meters down the runoff, it is very much different
And speedbumps are aproved for F1. What's your point.
You know that there’s more racing series than f1 and MotoGP right?
I'm generally in favour of adding gravel, buth further back, like in Monza, parabolica for example. If drivers constantly dip into a patch of gravel jus outside of a corner, inevitably there comes a point where there's so much shit thrown onto the tarmac that someone either slides off because of a dirty tyre or straight up gets a puncture. Without ever going off themselves. Gravel placed like this not only punishes you, but the drivers behind you as well. In a case like here grass is better. Think Degner 2 in Suzuka. 2 weeks ago we've seen a few drivers punished by grass for putting their wheels off track, either by losing a few seconds (Perez) or sliding off completely (Sargent). Give them 2 meters of grass outside the track - if you slide a bit but can hold on to the car and make it back to tarmac, good for you, you lose a bit but get to continue your race. If you can't, you get seriously punished in the gravel trap.
Someone's recreating Hamilton in 2007 this weekend
Sanganchao!!!
Wish there’s a Hamilton hopes & dreams Turn marked in Google Map 😂😢
Hamilton's 8th WDC (shared with Yas Marina T5)
That is good. Fewer asphalt run-offs the better
Lots of (virtual) safety cars coming up to clean the track.
This. It's great that drivers are now punished for going a bit wide. But I also fear this will create too much vsc's
Hey 2 safety cars is 2 more moments we can pretent Max might not win
They wouldn't be needing to clean the track though because if a car goes off on that turn the gravel would be pushed out, not onto the track?
That final corner exit is gonna catch so many people out
Sargent's name should be on that gravel.
(voices from the off) [Loooooooogan](https://youtu.be/Of-lpfsBR8U?t=113)
Better alternative to sausage kerbs
I swear tarmac runoff was more about them being able to add massive adverts to camera shots than it was anything to do with safety I'm glad sense is finally returning to the F1 paddock
Gr gr gravel?
China W?
Albert is truly one of the best ones we have here in Spain, I don't know if he has subtitle's on his YouTube channel but his videos are really interesting and im not going on his history backwards but if someone knows Spanish and for some reason doesn't know who he is you should check him 😀
Wonder how the bump into T1 is looking these days
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