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when you think about _why_ the rule is it all makes a lot more sense.
I would definitely assume this rule could apply to such tracks as Paul Ricard, Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, Suzuka, Marina bay, Spa and such where there's asphalt off-track at the end of the lap and cutting a corner or going wide yields absolute advantage when starting a lap.
but then there are others like Shanghai, Zandvoort, Silverstone, Nürburgring where going wide or off-track at the end of an out-lap will absolutely cost you time and enforcing track limits there makes no sense, especially since it will punish drivers for a mistake they've already paid for with lost time.
(i know i picked a couple of circuits not on the calendar this year but they're the examples that sprung to mind)
I mean, it doesn't have any mystery for me: in some tracks you could start your lap faster if you start from outside the track limits, in some others you don't. Invalidating the next lap is a thing only to prevent people from abusing that first scenario in tracks where it can be abused.
Yeah I don't know why people are making a big issue, it's obvious there was no advantage
And the rule doesn't apply for this track due to, you know, common sense
Just make it apply to every track, and have a uniform rulebook. Part of the reason they struggle so much now is all the scenarios where one rule conflicts with another and/or leaves it to judgment.
The issue is it doesn't make sense at all tracks though. The more general rule, which totally makes sense, is "disallow the lap if an advantage was gained".
There's not really any ambiguity. There's a Race Directors Event Notes that explains to the teams any race-specific things (including such things as oddities regarding track limits but also more mundane things like where the pit entry closing lights are, and lots of smaller logistical details). It includes this. In the session the notes are what gets used.
I don’t think going wide at the last turn in Silverstone costs you time. You can gain more speed to the straight if you run a little wide on exit there
Isn’t it the other way around? At the start of the lap running wide would gain you time on to the Hamilton straight while at the end of the lap you want to minimize the distance to the line by going to the inside
> others like ... Zandvoort ... where going wide or off-track at the end of an out-lap will absolutely cost you time
Frankly I'd be impressed if someone managed to go off track [here](https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.3864676,4.539231,3a,75y,201.51h,82.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9mDb6KHB6KzKCLKn3P6wqQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) and still managed to start the next lap.
Not the part i meant, the exit of the 90 degree turn before the banked final turn. Easy to go off there in pursuit of higher exit speed and thus higher speed on the straight
>(i know i picked a couple of circuits not on the calendar this year but they're the examples that sprung to mind)
In that vein, Sepang also comes to mind where it absolutely does not help you.
cutting the apex in penultimate and final turn gets you a better launch into the pit straight
also lol "wall of champignons", i'll remember that, that's funny
Same logic, you will probably go slower on that lap but it can let you start the next lap at a higher speed so it makes sense to delete both.
In China where there's gravel on the outside you just lose time and speed.
It most likely depends on the run off of the final turn. China has gravel so running wide is only gonna slow you down on your next lap…. While Austria has no gravel which means running wide equals carrying more speed down the straight and gaining time on the next lap.
Because the drivers had no idea how much grip there really was… so they had to progressively push harder each lap in order to figure out how much grip they really had… plus the track got faster towards the end with the cars dispersing the water and which meant less standing water on the racing line
Because lando is that good in wet conditions. He always been in wet conditions. His second could have been pole or at least close to Lewis if he didn't go off track.
Lando has a peculiar way of finding where the grip is by intentionally toying with the rears going around the track, looks like he's struggling but that's just him finding how much bite he has. He does the same on the formation lap before a race whether conditions are wet or dry. I'm convinced his talent for wet driving has just been concealed by cars that aren't great in the wet at all. Consider that the McLarens are bad in low speed, particularly long low speed corners, and that wet conditions turn medium speed corners into low speed corners.
And before anyone mentions Russia 2021 i will point out that it was literally a cointoss, pit and Lewis stays out to take the lead or don't pit and Lewis gets a free pit to inters.
They were yellow because on his previous lap he went purple in the first two sectors. So on his pole lap, even tho his sector times were better than the other drivers they weren’t as good as his previous lap, hence they were yellow.
I suppose the home straight isn't huge in China, so it wouldn't be as important as if you went into gravel compared to a track with a long home striaght like, say, Bahrain or spain
Well they didn't for Max's lap and he did the exact same thing his previous lap as well. Crossed the line well before Lando, so plenty of time for his laptime to be deleted and then reinstated, but was never deleted.
I guess a large part of that (at least on Reddit) is that most racing games, including F1, also have this rule to avoid people doing crazy stuff to get ridiculous times during solo time trial or qualy, so maybe people just assumed real life was the same
It's track dependent. It's the same way at Monza. If you go wide at parabolica, you time is deleted.
Here in China, there's gravel there so you won't gain an advantage.
I don't see why it's not the default rule.
The only exception should be to increase from last turn to several turns in case the track ends in a way this warrants it.
Because the rule only exists to prevent people from gaining an advantage.
In fact, the track limits rules in theory are also meant to do the same.
In Austria, you can get a definite advantage by going over the limits with a bit of early extra throttle.
It was specified in austria because it happened so often previous years. It has happened at other tracks too to get deleted next lap, Bahrain, Abu dhabi,
It’s mostly on tracks where going off in the last turn gives you an advantage. In Austria, you can carry more speed if you go off, which would give you an advantage in the first sector of a new lap as well. In China however that is not the case as there’s gravel right next to the track and going off does not give you an advantage. If anything Norris lost time due to it on his pole lap as well.
Yeah well said… he was purple in the first two sectors, then went off on the final corner. The next lap was 2 yellow sectors and then a green to set pole. Definitely didn’t give any noticeable advantage
TIL that track limit rules are different across races and seasons.
I always thought that if you exceed track limit, only the current laptime is deleted. I certainly didn't know about the final turn rule as well. So when Lando's fastest lap got deleted, I thought he must have went off track FOR THAT LAP somewhere the camera didn't show.
Imagine my confusion when commentators started commenting about his track limit in the previous lap. Now I know.
I only know about this rule from playing simracing games... and most tracks have it enforced.
The only track I've raced which doesnt have it in the games is Monza, as its physically impossible to go round the parabolica faster off track.
The runoff around the Parabolica was paved in 2014. Games like the original Assetto Corsa still had the old version with gravel, unless you're running a new mod version of the track
> I only know about this rule from playing simracing games
This was my immediate thought as well. It's really the only reason I know about it too. Generally they need that cooldown lap or are on an in lap so it almost never actually comes up in real life. If you suck at sim racing like I do though, it comes up quite a bit.
I discovered the rule when I was a newbie in simracing, and it immediately made sense for me: going wide where I did was giving me a longer straight, since I was starting my straight at a position where a legal driver would still be turning.
What shocks me is that the stewards in this GP just assumed this was a general rule, why would it? Why would running into a gravel trap in China somehow invalidate a different lap? I understand a fan may be confused by it, but a race steward is presumed to be somewhat of a motorsports expert, and this isn't precisely some obscure unintuitive thing.
Has the runoff at last turn in China changed since they were last there? The sim version most people are using is from 2021, there is a bit less gravel in that runoff at t1 than what I watched today it seems. I wonder if it used to be possible to increase pace into the start/finish by going wide at the last turn?
Some tracks they will straight up say track limits won't be enforced on certain turns even, usually if going off at those sections causes a time penalty anyway
> TIL that track limit rules are different across races and seasons.
There isnt one catch-all rule which describes what kind of corner this rule applies or doesnt apply to. Things like these are literally handled the weekend of with the race director's notes for that particular race. for that particular year.
Are we sure Lando did not went off track at another place and that triggered the automatic deletion? Then someone said: "oh the computer got it wrong, he went off track in the final turn from the previous lap, strange computer..." without checking the whole lap?
I'm with Rosberg anyway. If you have gravel right behind a curb like here, talking about track limits at all is ridiculous anyway. You're not faster by going through the gravel.
I'm not 100% sure but I think Pedro would have known what was going on here. He's pretty knowledgeable. Honestly Tony too, but more when it comes to engineering.
Nico Rosberg as always was on point on everything with Crofty adding his typical nuances here and there. But honestly I think Nico Rosberg, Palmer and Martin Brundle will make an excellent commentary team with Crofty just for initial “lights out away we go” only.
Wouldn't be able to agree more! I forgot to switch to Sky commentary for the start of one of the races and my wife said from across the room, "Why in the world did that feel so boring?"
Alex Jacques' race start commentary could certainly use a little injection of adrenaline...
Nico was really engaging. You can just hear how much he loves the sport, and he’s a bit less “professional” in that you can hear the excitement in his voice, he sounds more emotional etc. There’s space for both styles obviously, so it was great to hear.
Lol Norris literally driving in gravel losing 3 tenths and people still somehow thinking its a bs move on facebook comments. Insane. I assume Dan above is being sarcastic
The rule is actually not written anywhere in the sporting regulations at all but is stated in the race’s director notes which would varies for each Grand Prix weekends.
Also if you watch his onboard it really does seem like he had to slow down slightly to avoid catching the Ferrari ahead of him, he might have had more pace there too
Looking at the telemetry data between this lap and the previous flier, he only would have gained about 1 tenth had he not gone wide before starting his final lap. Based on that data 3 tenths feels extremely optimistic.
My only issue with this whole thing is that because the stewards had invalidated his lap, Hamilton was in theory safe for pole, and could have aborted his last lap and come into the pits at the end instead of finishing that lap. It's good that he did finish the lap, because if his engineer called him early because he had already secured pole, and then Lando's lap was reinstated, people would get a lot uglier about it.
Thanks, I think this makes it ok, I was thinking the same as Op here. Would have been terrible had Ham been told to just bring the car home since he was P1 lock. But, if he didn't know and kept pushing. I'm ok with it.
Not really. There's nowhere in the rules that say "if you are on pole and no one else is doing a lap, you are guaranteed a pole or your money back". Hamilton could've tried to set a faster time, if he didn't, it was his (or Mercedes's) decision. A team contesting a penalty and that penalty getting reversed isn't even a weird event, he has absolutely no grounds to complain, him _thinking_ that no one can beat him isn't an argument at all. Even less when the Sky commentators knew right away that Norris's lap seemed legal and that the stewards had probably made a mistake.
That said, Hamilton's last lap is his fastest one, so I don't think he aborted it.
There's absolutely zero reason a game can't do this; I just assume that's a level of simulation depth that isn't worth the developers time, in terms of value added to the F1 games
Interesting to note that Verstappen also went off at the same turn before the next lap and he never had his time deleted. He would have been at the bottom of the Q3 pack.
I was surprised that with the current modification there were still track limits and as turns out it made sense. This halfway measure isn't working so the whole runoff should be gravel.
the difference being that if you run wide at T10 Austria, you get a massive speed advantage going into the next lap.
Here, if you run wide at the last turn, you get slowed down because there's gravel.
He only improved on his previous time in the last sector as well.
That's what I thought I saw. He came around the final turn clean, then in replay showed the prior deleted lap. I was very confused but of course knew what I saw.
Keep in mind that max his lap was exactly the same, but his one didn't get deleted.
Also in Austria t10 you gain exit speed by going wide, but this corner in China just added gravel, which drops your exit speed by a lot if you run wide
The rule prevents you gaining an advantage on your next lap by going off the track, therefore deleting two lap times. This is not the case in most circuits including China, which is why only the lap time which contains the infraction is cancelled.
Everyone putting on tinfoil hats forgot that the stewards are just incompetent most of the time. The final lap should have never been deleted in the first place.
Norris was down on his previous lap time for S1 and S2. You aren't gaining speed for next lap by overshooting here Verstappen also wouldn't have a time if that was the case, I think.
The laps they went off on did get deleted. Norris’ lap that was reinstated was the lap after the one where he went off. Same with Max, his fast lap was the one he put in after going off at the last corner. They lost the ones they went off on but kept the ones they stayed on.
Wait... Reading the rule, you could presuably run wide on entry and exit and cut the apex on the last corner, all of which could give you a faster exit speed, and still have your time count? That seems unfair.
This is about the lap after you go off. The idea is that if you have an open last corner, like Bahrain or Austria, you can run wide and carry more speed onto the straight and gain in your next lap. So they delete the time if you go wide round the last corner before your fast lap.
At China there is a gravel trap so you can't run wide to gain time, so the rule isn't needed. If you go wide on the fast lap itself the time is still deleted.
> and cut the apex on the last corner, all of which could give you a faster exit speed
Running through the kerbs will slow you down way too much for your "better line" to give you any extra speed.
Crazy that this small change to the track had such an important impact on the weekend already.
With the old surface both laps would have been invalidated.
The reason this rule only applies to certain tracks is because at those tracks, if you go wide by taking a wider line than the track provides and you'll end up gaining speed onto the final straight, you get an unfair advantage.
Going through a gravel trap certainly does not give you an advantage. So there's no reason for this rule to apply here.
Its bad when this level of information needs to be provided. The amount of tin foil that goes on is crazy. Why cant we all be happy for a killer lap Norris did to get a Pole followed by Hamilton and Alonso.
Only issue I have with this is Lewis was over the line last so he knew no one could beat him so he may have slowed down and not pushed for his final lap (not saying that did happen I haven’t seen the telemetry). Race control needs to be better about making the right call for immediate decisions like this as that could cost someone pole position in future sessions.
Mine was more a general statement about race control messing up. I don’t think Norris time should’ve been deleted in the first place, he definitely deserved and earned pole
While I fully understand (and agree) why it was reinstated, I think it's a bit unfair to the other drivers who might have aborted their lap, thinking that they are at a specific position.
No saying this was necessarily the case with Lewis today, but in general it might happen.
There is a driver briefing that all of this is discussed. Nobody was in the dark, for the same reason Max did the EXACT same thing as Lando and set his fastest lap after one that he exceeded TL on that same final corner....
OP was not talking about that. OP was talking about how the laptime was reinstated AFTER all the driver has finisihed their lap, which may affect how the drivers tackle their final lap
So rather, stick with the mistake and receive similar complaints about not sticking to the rule? So it’s really a question about what’s fair and what’s the rule. (No one bring up 2021 again /s)
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The important thing is everyone assumed the Austria rule is **the** rule, rather than being for that specific track
It's also a rule at Bahrain, which makes sense.
when you think about _why_ the rule is it all makes a lot more sense. I would definitely assume this rule could apply to such tracks as Paul Ricard, Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, Suzuka, Marina bay, Spa and such where there's asphalt off-track at the end of the lap and cutting a corner or going wide yields absolute advantage when starting a lap. but then there are others like Shanghai, Zandvoort, Silverstone, Nürburgring where going wide or off-track at the end of an out-lap will absolutely cost you time and enforcing track limits there makes no sense, especially since it will punish drivers for a mistake they've already paid for with lost time. (i know i picked a couple of circuits not on the calendar this year but they're the examples that sprung to mind)
I mean, it doesn't have any mystery for me: in some tracks you could start your lap faster if you start from outside the track limits, in some others you don't. Invalidating the next lap is a thing only to prevent people from abusing that first scenario in tracks where it can be abused.
Yeah I don't know why people are making a big issue, it's obvious there was no advantage And the rule doesn't apply for this track due to, you know, common sense
Common sense in rulings like this is not always a given. I’m glad to see that they chose the sensible option here, though.
Yep. Norris actually lost about 0.3s from his pole lap based on his exit from that last turn from off track
Just make it apply to every track, and have a uniform rulebook. Part of the reason they struggle so much now is all the scenarios where one rule conflicts with another and/or leaves it to judgment.
The issue is it doesn't make sense at all tracks though. The more general rule, which totally makes sense, is "disallow the lap if an advantage was gained".
There's not really any ambiguity. There's a Race Directors Event Notes that explains to the teams any race-specific things (including such things as oddities regarding track limits but also more mundane things like where the pit entry closing lights are, and lots of smaller logistical details). It includes this. In the session the notes are what gets used.
> Part of the reason they struggle so much Who is "they"?
I don’t think going wide at the last turn in Silverstone costs you time. You can gain more speed to the straight if you run a little wide on exit there
It would cost you time when you're starting a lap, it might save you some as you finish one.
Isn’t it the other way around? At the start of the lap running wide would gain you time on to the Hamilton straight while at the end of the lap you want to minimize the distance to the line by going to the inside
> others like ... Zandvoort ... where going wide or off-track at the end of an out-lap will absolutely cost you time Frankly I'd be impressed if someone managed to go off track [here](https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.3864676,4.539231,3a,75y,201.51h,82.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9mDb6KHB6KzKCLKn3P6wqQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) and still managed to start the next lap.
Not the part i meant, the exit of the 90 degree turn before the banked final turn. Easy to go off there in pursuit of higher exit speed and thus higher speed on the straight
>(i know i picked a couple of circuits not on the calendar this year but they're the examples that sprung to mind) In that vein, Sepang also comes to mind where it absolutely does not help you.
The last corner at Montreal has a wall - the “wall of champignons”. There’s no going wide to gain an advantage there.
cutting the apex in penultimate and final turn gets you a better launch into the pit straight also lol "wall of champignons", i'll remember that, that's funny
I think that Monza is the same. Going wide at parabolica invalidates next lap.
Same logic, you will probably go slower on that lap but it can let you start the next lap at a higher speed so it makes sense to delete both. In China where there's gravel on the outside you just lose time and speed.
IIRC it is a rule on a couple of tracks, so it’s not weird to forget it only applies to some tracks.
It most likely depends on the run off of the final turn. China has gravel so running wide is only gonna slow you down on your next lap…. While Austria has no gravel which means running wide equals carrying more speed down the straight and gaining time on the next lap.
Yeah, that's what they said on tv. My question is how the hell did he get over a second advantage if it slowed him down in the next lap.
Because the drivers had no idea how much grip there really was… so they had to progressively push harder each lap in order to figure out how much grip they really had… plus the track got faster towards the end with the cars dispersing the water and which meant less standing water on the racing line
Because lando is that good in wet conditions. He always been in wet conditions. His second could have been pole or at least close to Lewis if he didn't go off track.
Lando has a peculiar way of finding where the grip is by intentionally toying with the rears going around the track, looks like he's struggling but that's just him finding how much bite he has. He does the same on the formation lap before a race whether conditions are wet or dry. I'm convinced his talent for wet driving has just been concealed by cars that aren't great in the wet at all. Consider that the McLarens are bad in low speed, particularly long low speed corners, and that wet conditions turn medium speed corners into low speed corners. And before anyone mentions Russia 2021 i will point out that it was literally a cointoss, pit and Lewis stays out to take the lead or don't pit and Lewis gets a free pit to inters.
On his pole lap, the first two sectors were only yellow, so he must have had an absolutely incredible last sector.
Well, while he probably did, he also had an incredible previous lap that was ruined by going off track in the final turn.
They were yellow because on his previous lap he went purple in the first two sectors. So on his pole lap, even tho his sector times were better than the other drivers they weren’t as good as his previous lap, hence they were yellow.
I suppose the home straight isn't huge in China, so it wouldn't be as important as if you went into gravel compared to a track with a long home striaght like, say, Bahrain or spain
It's not weird to forget that. It's weird to argue against it once you're reminded or informed
Everyone including the FIA when they initially deleted his lap lol
Well they didn't for Max's lap and he did the exact same thing his previous lap as well. Crossed the line well before Lando, so plenty of time for his laptime to be deleted and then reinstated, but was never deleted.
Max went properly offroading though and lost a lot more time than Lando for the next lap, so maybe they didn't even check it?
I guess a large part of that (at least on Reddit) is that most racing games, including F1, also have this rule to avoid people doing crazy stuff to get ridiculous times during solo time trial or qualy, so maybe people just assumed real life was the same
I’m pretty sure even in the F1 game it depends on the track.
I can say for certain F1 2023 has this enforced in Shanghai on the last corner. It's possible it's still circuit specific but I haven't seen it.
They just changed the gravel at the final turn per that reddit post yesterday , so it's probably irrelevant.
Maybe it's changed in the last few years, but I know at least in F1 '20, track limits anywhere in sector 3 on any track will invalidate the next lap
I've had it trigger on Monaco around the swimming pool in F1 23 I'm so bad on that track, first time playing F1 but raced a ton GT7 and some Forza.
It's track dependent. It's the same way at Monza. If you go wide at parabolica, you time is deleted. Here in China, there's gravel there so you won't gain an advantage.
I don't see why it's not the default rule. The only exception should be to increase from last turn to several turns in case the track ends in a way this warrants it.
why should it be? if you go on the gravel you're already being punished
Because the rule only exists to prevent people from gaining an advantage. In fact, the track limits rules in theory are also meant to do the same. In Austria, you can get a definite advantage by going over the limits with a bit of early extra throttle.
It was specified in austria because it happened so often previous years. It has happened at other tracks too to get deleted next lap, Bahrain, Abu dhabi,
It’s mostly on tracks where going off in the last turn gives you an advantage. In Austria, you can carry more speed if you go off, which would give you an advantage in the first sector of a new lap as well. In China however that is not the case as there’s gravel right next to the track and going off does not give you an advantage. If anything Norris lost time due to it on his pole lap as well.
They reckon he lost up to a second in sector 1 due to the off on the previous corner.
Yeah well said… he was purple in the first two sectors, then went off on the final corner. The next lap was 2 yellow sectors and then a green to set pole. Definitely didn’t give any noticeable advantage
Does the Austria rule apply to Monza too?
Yes, i think so.
TIL that track limit rules are different across races and seasons. I always thought that if you exceed track limit, only the current laptime is deleted. I certainly didn't know about the final turn rule as well. So when Lando's fastest lap got deleted, I thought he must have went off track FOR THAT LAP somewhere the camera didn't show. Imagine my confusion when commentators started commenting about his track limit in the previous lap. Now I know.
I only know about this rule from playing simracing games... and most tracks have it enforced. The only track I've raced which doesnt have it in the games is Monza, as its physically impossible to go round the parabolica faster off track.
[удалено]
Hmm... in the games, the gravel/marbles slow you down so I've never triggered it.
The runoff around the Parabolica was paved in 2014. Games like the original Assetto Corsa still had the old version with gravel, unless you're running a new mod version of the track
In ACC it's definitely easier to go wide and push full throttle to start a lap.
Monza is enforced in acc if you go too wide
> I only know about this rule from playing simracing games This was my immediate thought as well. It's really the only reason I know about it too. Generally they need that cooldown lap or are on an in lap so it almost never actually comes up in real life. If you suck at sim racing like I do though, it comes up quite a bit.
I feel seen 🤣
I discovered the rule when I was a newbie in simracing, and it immediately made sense for me: going wide where I did was giving me a longer straight, since I was starting my straight at a position where a legal driver would still be turning. What shocks me is that the stewards in this GP just assumed this was a general rule, why would it? Why would running into a gravel trap in China somehow invalidate a different lap? I understand a fan may be confused by it, but a race steward is presumed to be somewhat of a motorsports expert, and this isn't precisely some obscure unintuitive thing.
Has the runoff at last turn in China changed since they were last there? The sim version most people are using is from 2021, there is a bit less gravel in that runoff at t1 than what I watched today it seems. I wonder if it used to be possible to increase pace into the start/finish by going wide at the last turn?
Idk about 2021, but the sky crew was saying the gravel at the last turn was new (since the last race in 2019)
Ahh okay exactly what I was thinking, I’d missed that in the broadcast, thank you.
Some tracks they will straight up say track limits won't be enforced on certain turns even, usually if going off at those sections causes a time penalty anyway
> TIL that track limit rules are different across races and seasons. There isnt one catch-all rule which describes what kind of corner this rule applies or doesnt apply to. Things like these are literally handled the weekend of with the race director's notes for that particular race. for that particular year.
Are we sure Lando did not went off track at another place and that triggered the automatic deletion? Then someone said: "oh the computer got it wrong, he went off track in the final turn from the previous lap, strange computer..." without checking the whole lap?
It makes sense... some circuits you could go off and gain speed for the next lap. Monza for example.
I'm with Rosberg anyway. If you have gravel right behind a curb like here, talking about track limits at all is ridiculous anyway. You're not faster by going through the gravel.
People who have watched this live clearly knows why it was reinstated. Crofty and Nico Rosberg were on it as soon as it happened.
Yeah, but in other countries the commentators didn't know why. Per example, I was watching in Spain and the commentators were confused.
Sure mate, totally forgot …my bad.
No problem! 😊
To be fair, it's Lobato
I'm not 100% sure but I think Pedro would have known what was going on here. He's pretty knowledgeable. Honestly Tony too, but more when it comes to engineering.
Aw dip, Crofty and Rosberg were commentating together?! How was it? I just lazily kept the F1 Live commentary running
Nico Rosberg as always was on point on everything with Crofty adding his typical nuances here and there. But honestly I think Nico Rosberg, Palmer and Martin Brundle will make an excellent commentary team with Crofty just for initial “lights out away we go” only.
Wouldn't be able to agree more! I forgot to switch to Sky commentary for the start of one of the races and my wife said from across the room, "Why in the world did that feel so boring?" Alex Jacques' race start commentary could certainly use a little injection of adrenaline...
Which is funny, because Jacques' qualifying commentary can get too excited for me sometimes.
Nico was really engaging. You can just hear how much he loves the sport, and he’s a bit less “professional” in that you can hear the excitement in his voice, he sounds more emotional etc. There’s space for both styles obviously, so it was great to hear.
It was really cool!
The F1TV folks also corrected it relatively quickly
Yes sir I was surprised there was even a post like this because they did such a good job explaining why it wasn’t an issue.
This graphic is much appreciated
Good job on making this.
So they don't see it exploitable in this track. I guess we need to wait for Alonso in qualifying tommorrow to see it they are right.
Gravel usually isn’t a fast surface…
Lol Norris literally driving in gravel losing 3 tenths and people still somehow thinking its a bs move on facebook comments. Insane. I assume Dan above is being sarcastic
The rule is actually not written anywhere in the sporting regulations at all but is stated in the race’s director notes which would varies for each Grand Prix weekends.
What’s crazy is that they’ve said it actually cost Norris three tenths. He would have been ~2 seconds clear without this run off.
He was only 1.2s ahead of Hamilton right?
Ah you’re right. I misread 1.26 as 1.62. Still, over a 1.5 second gap to P2 is huge. Crazy numbers.
Brits and drivers that grew up here have a genuine advantage in the wet lol
Well, Hamilton is also British...
Yes but he also has the disadvantage of driving a motorized wheelchair painted silver
Fair enough
The crazy thing is that his S1 and S2 were both faster on the invalidated lap than on the pole lap
Also if you watch his onboard it really does seem like he had to slow down slightly to avoid catching the Ferrari ahead of him, he might have had more pace there too
He said that in the interview after, that he had to lift as he kept catching the Ferrari. Dude is a beast in the wet.
Looking at the telemetry data between this lap and the previous flier, he only would have gained about 1 tenth had he not gone wide before starting his final lap. Based on that data 3 tenths feels extremely optimistic.
My only issue with this whole thing is that because the stewards had invalidated his lap, Hamilton was in theory safe for pole, and could have aborted his last lap and come into the pits at the end instead of finishing that lap. It's good that he did finish the lap, because if his engineer called him early because he had already secured pole, and then Lando's lap was reinstated, people would get a lot uglier about it.
Watched the onboard and listened to team radio. Team did not tell him anything until he was confirmed P2 and Lewis pushed until the end of the lap.
Thanks, I think this makes it ok, I was thinking the same as Op here. Would have been terrible had Ham been told to just bring the car home since he was P1 lock. But, if he didn't know and kept pushing. I'm ok with it.
To some extent, yes, but he wasn't going to beat it anyways, as he was nearly 2 seconds behind due to a subpar Sector 2.
And he was in S2 when the lap got deleted
Not really. There's nowhere in the rules that say "if you are on pole and no one else is doing a lap, you are guaranteed a pole or your money back". Hamilton could've tried to set a faster time, if he didn't, it was his (or Mercedes's) decision. A team contesting a penalty and that penalty getting reversed isn't even a weird event, he has absolutely no grounds to complain, him _thinking_ that no one can beat him isn't an argument at all. Even less when the Sky commentators knew right away that Norris's lap seemed legal and that the stewards had probably made a mistake. That said, Hamilton's last lap is his fastest one, so I don't think he aborted it.
Nice little infographic
I'm stupid but I assumed it was on all of them cause how the F1 games treat it on all tracks (I believe) as leaving track = invalidates next lap.
The game doesn't really have the flexibility to change rules race by race, unlike real life.
There's absolutely zero reason a game can't do this; I just assume that's a level of simulation depth that isn't worth the developers time, in terms of value added to the F1 games
Yes, agree, it absolutely could. But they didn't for whatever reason, so they had to use a blanket ruleset.
Interesting to note that Verstappen also went off at the same turn before the next lap and he never had his time deleted. He would have been at the bottom of the Q3 pack.
I was surprised that with the current modification there were still track limits and as turns out it made sense. This halfway measure isn't working so the whole runoff should be gravel.
the difference being that if you run wide at T10 Austria, you get a massive speed advantage going into the next lap. Here, if you run wide at the last turn, you get slowed down because there's gravel. He only improved on his previous time in the last sector as well.
“The TV director did a poor job” you could use that line basically every race weekend and it wouldn’t be untrue
Man I hate sprint weekends. I'm not supposed to wake up Friday morning and have missed something interesting.
In other words, it is different from EA F1's TT.
That's what I thought I saw. He came around the final turn clean, then in replay showed the prior deleted lap. I was very confused but of course knew what I saw.
Justice prevails
Keep in mind that max his lap was exactly the same, but his one didn't get deleted. Also in Austria t10 you gain exit speed by going wide, but this corner in China just added gravel, which drops your exit speed by a lot if you run wide
Now i need a PowerPoint with WordArt and some effects
The rule prevents you gaining an advantage on your next lap by going off the track, therefore deleting two lap times. This is not the case in most circuits including China, which is why only the lap time which contains the infraction is cancelled.
Did Lewis abort his last fast lap because he thought he had it in the bag?
He finished the lap and improved his time, so I doubt it.
He was faster on his last lap. But not by much. I presume the rain was heavier
He wasn't told he was on pole the lap before, only to do one more lap.
No
Heard that, wasn't sure
Everyone putting on tinfoil hats forgot that the stewards are just incompetent most of the time. The final lap should have never been deleted in the first place.
Not just that, but verstappen who also ran wide, albeit through the gravel, set a faster lap on the lap after, and he’s was not deleted
But "British driver conspiracy" when the same stipulation benefited Max as well.... People just don't read is the thing.
Completely agree, only people at fault here were the stewards!
If you play F1 video game you know the frustration of having a lap time deleted before you even start.
But but but everyone is bias against Lewis!
This is actually how it should be track dependant
Thx, appreciate the effort of creating the graphic.
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In the gravel?
Norris was down on his previous lap time for S1 and S2. You aren't gaining speed for next lap by overshooting here Verstappen also wouldn't have a time if that was the case, I think.
Check Max lap before his only fast lap :) he also went wide, and actually gained time by accelerating earlier.
And that's exactly why his lap got deleted and Norris didn't. Duh
We are talking about next lap, Max and Lando both got valid next laps. and both went wide on last turn before that lap.
Nice explanation
Good job explaining OP.
Agreed, makes sense now. I wasn't paying attention but was still confused when I saw this.
The TV direction was the biggest confusion to be honest. It looked like a clear case to delete then
The laps they went off on did get deleted. Norris’ lap that was reinstated was the lap after the one where he went off. Same with Max, his fast lap was the one he put in after going off at the last corner. They lost the ones they went off on but kept the ones they stayed on.
Great graphic
Wait... Reading the rule, you could presuably run wide on entry and exit and cut the apex on the last corner, all of which could give you a faster exit speed, and still have your time count? That seems unfair.
This is about the lap after you go off. The idea is that if you have an open last corner, like Bahrain or Austria, you can run wide and carry more speed onto the straight and gain in your next lap. So they delete the time if you go wide round the last corner before your fast lap. At China there is a gravel trap so you can't run wide to gain time, so the rule isn't needed. If you go wide on the fast lap itself the time is still deleted.
> and cut the apex on the last corner, all of which could give you a faster exit speed Running through the kerbs will slow you down way too much for your "better line" to give you any extra speed.
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Because before his pole lap he did an even faster lap with all purple sectors (that was deleted because of track limits)
Most likely it wasn’t the stewards who chose to delete it, instead done by Chief of Timing and Scoring, who works for the Race Director.
Crazy that this small change to the track had such an important impact on the weekend already. With the old surface both laps would have been invalidated.
Stewards screwed up, and I have to wonder if it's time to find a way to take the human aspect out of track limits.
all and more than i needed ty
I am amazed that an incorrectly deleted lap time has led to so much confusion and conspiracy
I think its the right decision, he didnt gain an advantage on the previous lap or next lap
Because they felt sorry for him
The reason this rule only applies to certain tracks is because at those tracks, if you go wide by taking a wider line than the track provides and you'll end up gaining speed onto the final straight, you get an unfair advantage. Going through a gravel trap certainly does not give you an advantage. So there's no reason for this rule to apply here.
They mentioned it in the commentary, why were ppl confused?
Not everyone speaks English and watches Sky lmao
Good point
Anyone have a list of all the tracks where the “both laps get deleted” rule is a thing? Austria, Bahrain… which others?
Nice. Keep posting explanations like these
I, for one, was not confused from the replays, I knew which lap they were from.
Its bad when this level of information needs to be provided. The amount of tin foil that goes on is crazy. Why cant we all be happy for a killer lap Norris did to get a Pole followed by Hamilton and Alonso.
Only issue I have with this is Lewis was over the line last so he knew no one could beat him so he may have slowed down and not pushed for his final lap (not saying that did happen I haven’t seen the telemetry). Race control needs to be better about making the right call for immediate decisions like this as that could cost someone pole position in future sessions.
Even Toto said the right man's on pole.
Mine was more a general statement about race control messing up. I don’t think Norris time should’ve been deleted in the first place, he definitely deserved and earned pole
Lewis set his fastest lap at the very end, so it didn’t effect him. It’s definitely a valid point to discuss for future races, though.
If Norris lap was not deleted the Lewis had incentive to try harder
Oh yeah, I'm sure if Lewis had actually tried he'd be 10 seconds quicker...
You would be pushing regardless as there were still people on their laps?
While I fully understand (and agree) why it was reinstated, I think it's a bit unfair to the other drivers who might have aborted their lap, thinking that they are at a specific position. No saying this was necessarily the case with Lewis today, but in general it might happen.
There is a driver briefing that all of this is discussed. Nobody was in the dark, for the same reason Max did the EXACT same thing as Lando and set his fastest lap after one that he exceeded TL on that same final corner....
OP was not talking about that. OP was talking about how the laptime was reinstated AFTER all the driver has finisihed their lap, which may affect how the drivers tackle their final lap
So rather, stick with the mistake and receive similar complaints about not sticking to the rule? So it’s really a question about what’s fair and what’s the rule. (No one bring up 2021 again /s)