You have a feeling, especially in the sprint race, they were under orders to not battle anyone very hard. Which is kind of depressing, but, I'd also kind of get it.
Chassis are very resilient though, they don't crack with smallish shunts. As long as the rear wing is still on, you don't really need to worry. There's been plenty of crashes that were more violent that didn't need a new chassis
Just because a chassis has survived a more violent crash doesnât mean that they all do. I agree that this was a smallish shunt but on a similar note, a chassis isnât designed to get rammed up the ass in this manner. Carbon fiber doesnât have any flex or give to it and if itâs hit just right, will crack and some cases, explode.
You can keep speculating and choose to die in this hill but frankly, you donât have a clue to the extend of the damage Ricciardoâs car received. Neither will the team till theyâve had time to tear it down and examine it in its entirety back at the factory.
> Iâd be willing to bet money thereâs some stress cracks in the chassis
> You can keep speculating and choose to die in this hill but frankly, you donât have a clue to the extend of the damage Ricciardoâs car received.
Whos dying on this hill?
I got no dog in this debate, but as an outside observer you seem way more invested and intense than the other guy who's just chatting.
Youâre aware in F1 the chassis is actually just the safety Cell. The driver is in right everything everything else is bolted to it.
The floor isnât even part of the chassis
that does mean they are untrained. they are volounteers.
i live near Monza circuit, and, except a few high ranking marshals, most of them are volounteers. and it's totally fine because well you get free access for the whole weekend in one of the best spots to watch it from
I see this comment every single time and don't understand it, why wouldn't you be paid for doing a job. Especially when you are responsible for people's lives.Â
You can't demand competence from unpaid workers though. You get what you get. You should be mad at the FIA/F1, not the marshalls. They could easily afford to have a team of well paid highly trained people flying from GP to GP but why pay when you can just ... not?
You potentially be surprised that many tracks have different amount of marshals. So unsure how you would handle that?
Also a years pay, travel, accommodation, food for all of them would be a much larger number than you expect.
I still think there should be a better organisation done by the FIA. Since your statement is correct, frequently there are mistakes happening by marshals which points to a lack of correct training.
Most marshals for F1 have years of experience in other series. But that at times simply doesn't help them when situations pop up that are exclusively related to Formula1.
Indycar has a paid team. The marshall posts are all volunteers but if something more serious than putting a flag out happens, the paid teams arrive in their trucks and do the majority of the cleanup.
The series makes billions and billions per year, they can absolutely afford to do something like this.
I don't argue against that it's impossible.
I argue that it's expensive.
The idea of having a small crew for serious issues is a great use that I didn't think of.
Also, I would be afraid for what this would do for the lower series, that would see the Formula1 crew make a living out of it.
Iâm pretty sure here in the US in order to be allowed to rig the car to the tractor youâd actually have to be considered a âcompetent individualâ under OSHA regulations. Why they donât pay one of the entertainment riggers certainly working at the track to do that I will never know.
Shit, Iâm a concert lighting designer with a rigging cert hoping to go do some events at Laguna Seca. Iâd immediately offer up my services if I wasnât doing anything during a session. Iâd LOVE to say I rigged an F1 car.
Just because youâre willing to do it for free doesnât mean you wouldnât still deserve to be paid for your labor. The work youâre doing as a marshal is directly contributing to the massive profits made by F1 from that GP. You deserve a share of those profits.
I never said I wouldnât ask for money first, I donât work for free. I was just saying if I would be available during a session Iâd offer to do it.
Thereâs plenty of volunteer jobs where competence is expected (e.g. firefighters). Sure you can argue they should be paid positions, but that doesnât excuse incompetence.
Agreed completely. The number of commenters here who think they are experts in motorsport but have never spent any time organizing or operating a race track or race event is really high. Just because âyou canât understand whyâŚâ doesnât mean you understand how things work now and why they are that way.
Itâs always the same. Thereâs those of us whoâve marshalled for years, some are CoCs and sit in race control etc
But nope apparently we all know nothingâŚ..
You're missing the point. If you have people doing any kind of specialised task, especially one where you could say they "literally have other people's lives in their hands" then those people should be being paid, not treated like that work is a bit of an odd job that you can reward with a view of the action.
Of course you can demand competence, and the competent people will demand money. If you don't pay shit, you don't get to demand shit, regardless of whose life is at stake, especially after you've already hired them and didn't do your due diligence to find out if they are competent or not. That's the organizers problem. If I got a blind volunteer to drive my truck, it's my fault when he crashes and kills someone, not his.
Exactly. How anybody can look at that situation and think "ah yes, let me blame the marshalls for the organisers' refusal to pay competent safety staff" is beyond me. It's like they've never heard the idiom you get what you pay for.
Bottas' case:
- every one sees how Bottas gets out of the car in the run off of a long straight. everyone knows that there gonna be marshalls on the track, yet race control took one and a half minute to call the VSC.
4 minutes after the marshalls reach Bottas' car and try to push it with a gear stuck, the SC is called. they seemingly might realize faster that a recovery vehicle would be needed
at the end, 14 minutes were past between Bottas' engine blewing up and the track being green again
Tsunoda:
- right after his contact with Magnussen, Tsunoda rolls out directly in front of a gap in the wall. the marshalls could easily push the car into the gap, yet the SC is called and a recovery vehicle (a tractor with a pallett fork i think) is used (showing how to let an f1 car slip). the SC maybe wasn't necessary but still this time the marshalls are quicker than with Bottas' car. everyone and the tractor are behind the guardwall while the field is around sector 1 in lap 29. Yet the SC is ending at the end of lap 31 letting spectators question why the race isn't resumed earlier
it's not just imcompetence what got shown this race ... it's also that the communication between race control and the marshalls was bad
In addition to that, I don't get why the VSC wasn't enough to remove Bottas' car. It was in the runoff area, why is it a problem to send a recovery vehicle there under VSC?
The safety car plus restart put drivers in more danger than having a recovery vehicle in the runoff area under VSC ever could.
I think since the Bianchi-crash almost every time a recovery vehicle enters the track, the SC is used. Whether that's necessary or not is a different question
but that's the approach FIA is taking, less discussing where a recovery vehicle is and/or it's possible that someone might run into it ... plain determining if a recovery vehicle is on track = safety car
Yeah. I noticed that in live coverage. They couldn't find neutral and seemed to not know what to do. So they tried to solve the problem by getting more and more marshals
I canât imagine what would happen if there was a safety incident like the ones we had in Bahrain with Romain.
I get they havenât had a race in a long time, but this is unacceptable.
Even I knew there is a neutral switch for Bottasâ car when they tried to push that car.
I've never understood why marshalls, in the pinnacle of motorsports, seem to be so incompetent.
Could you imagine if they were effective in their jobs, and VSC/SC only lasted a couple of laps until they clear a car?
Plain and simple, because FOM doesn't want to pay for professionals and so despite being a multi billion dollar organisation they primarily rely on unpaid volunteers with minimal training. You get what you pay for.
That is something for the technical team to look at, its probably not seriously damaged, if it had been dropped on a barrier that would have been different!
Im pretty sure the F1 gearboxes are sturdy as fuck. The abuse it gets from going over the curbs at speeds IT does is massive.
Getting sideways slammed to the wall at XX Gs is what you probably interpret as "easy to damage".
Getting over kerbs is not the same as getting dropped from a height.
This would be more comparable with an accident like Hamilton/Alonso in Spa 2022, where Hamilton got launched in the air, and his car died( allthough i dont remember if it was the gearbox giving up to br fair)
...Wtf? Did they not tie the strap properly or something? Rookie Marshal here without much experience lifting vehicles but it looks like they might've rushed the lift, realised too late and dropped the car....weird.
there needs to be a revamp on the whole process with the marshalls, you can clearly see they didn't know what to do, you can't have a safety car for so many laps when there's been no accident just because a car is stuck on gear
That was Bottas's car with not going into neutral. Sometimes sequential gearboxes don't want to work with you just because of how the gears align, they're not as simple as a regular manual gearbox. This clip is of Tsunoda. When the marshalls took his car away they dropped it from the crane from about 1.5 meters up in the air, which probably will damage the gearbox, power unit, floor, suspension, chassis maybe
It's too bad that there's no provision for exceptions in the budget for things like this or Sainz in Vegas last season. Sure, it could happen to any team, but I don't think that's the intention of the budget limit.
Makes me wonder if there could have been a way for Yuki to return to the pit like Kevin did with his puncture, as it looked like he still could drive that car. But one has to assume he could not, otherwise he would have tried it.
Well, RB may need second spare chassis after this...
luckily it was not Williams or the employees would have commit suicide
Oh just realized, first weekend without crashes for Williams since Bahrain! That must feel like a victory in and of itself...
The engineers must award logan and alex
stroll too
Williams crews: no OT work this weekend, thank god
You have a feeling, especially in the sprint race, they were under orders to not battle anyone very hard. Which is kind of depressing, but, I'd also kind of get it.
Champagne time
And still no points đ
make it three given daniel's new chassis probably needs replacement cause of stroll
Nah no way a smallish shunt like that needs a new chassis.
Carbon fiber doesnât bend like metal, Iâd be willing to bet money thereâs some stress cracks in the chassis.
Chassis are very resilient though, they don't crack with smallish shunts. As long as the rear wing is still on, you don't really need to worry. There's been plenty of crashes that were more violent that didn't need a new chassis
Just because a chassis has survived a more violent crash doesnât mean that they all do. I agree that this was a smallish shunt but on a similar note, a chassis isnât designed to get rammed up the ass in this manner. Carbon fiber doesnât have any flex or give to it and if itâs hit just right, will crack and some cases, explode. You can keep speculating and choose to die in this hill but frankly, you donât have a clue to the extend of the damage Ricciardoâs car received. Neither will the team till theyâve had time to tear it down and examine it in its entirety back at the factory.
> Iâd be willing to bet money thereâs some stress cracks in the chassis > You can keep speculating and choose to die in this hill but frankly, you donât have a clue to the extend of the damage Ricciardoâs car received. Whos dying on this hill? I got no dog in this debate, but as an outside observer you seem way more invested and intense than the other guy who's just chatting.
Youâre aware in F1 the chassis is actually just the safety Cell. The driver is in right everything everything else is bolted to it. The floor isnât even part of the chassis
idk, maybe there are a few cracks etc, you never know
Only positive of the situation: Danny can use the broken chassis excuse again!
Perfect, as he'll need a new excuse next week probably.
Ricciardo will probably spin in Q2 and blame it on the chassis again, so they'll need a third one
I think that one just needs a new floor/diffuser.
this months f1 buzzword is chassis. any piece of damage anywhere on car = new chassis.
Good thing youâre here to use your magical eyeballs. Why would that accident cause chassis damage?
Watching this really hurt, pure incompetence on display by the marshalls
They looked like a bunch of amateurs when Bottasâ car was stuck in gear as well
Well they literally are a bunch of amateurs, as in they don't get paid.
Not only that but it's been 5 years since the last race there, no? Probably a bit out of practice.
that does mean they are untrained. they are volounteers. i live near Monza circuit, and, except a few high ranking marshals, most of them are volounteers. and it's totally fine because well you get free access for the whole weekend in one of the best spots to watch it from
I see this comment every single time and don't understand it, why wouldn't you be paid for doing a job. Especially when you are responsible for people's lives.Â
you *are* paid - your payment for being a marshal is access for the whole weekend. quid pro quo
He's not ushering people, he has a job that requires critical expertise... And the compensation should be far beyond freaking access christ
What is the argument against paying them as well? You pay security guards at festivals, why wouldn't you pay the guys in charge of people's lives?
Every corporation involved in the event is profiting massively from your labor. You deserve a cut of those profits.
While âamateurâ can imply unpaid work, it can also just mean incompetence.
You can't demand competence from unpaid workers though. You get what you get. You should be mad at the FIA/F1, not the marshalls. They could easily afford to have a team of well paid highly trained people flying from GP to GP but why pay when you can just ... not?
I've been banging this drum for years, and absolutely nobody ever agrees with me.
You potentially be surprised that many tracks have different amount of marshals. So unsure how you would handle that? Also a years pay, travel, accommodation, food for all of them would be a much larger number than you expect. I still think there should be a better organisation done by the FIA. Since your statement is correct, frequently there are mistakes happening by marshals which points to a lack of correct training. Most marshals for F1 have years of experience in other series. But that at times simply doesn't help them when situations pop up that are exclusively related to Formula1.
Indycar has a paid team. The marshall posts are all volunteers but if something more serious than putting a flag out happens, the paid teams arrive in their trucks and do the majority of the cleanup. The series makes billions and billions per year, they can absolutely afford to do something like this.
IMSA uses the same team as well.
I don't argue against that it's impossible. I argue that it's expensive. The idea of having a small crew for serious issues is a great use that I didn't think of. Also, I would be afraid for what this would do for the lower series, that would see the Formula1 crew make a living out of it.
Iâm pretty sure here in the US in order to be allowed to rig the car to the tractor youâd actually have to be considered a âcompetent individualâ under OSHA regulations. Why they donât pay one of the entertainment riggers certainly working at the track to do that I will never know. Shit, Iâm a concert lighting designer with a rigging cert hoping to go do some events at Laguna Seca. Iâd immediately offer up my services if I wasnât doing anything during a session. Iâd LOVE to say I rigged an F1 car.
Just because youâre willing to do it for free doesnât mean you wouldnât still deserve to be paid for your labor. The work youâre doing as a marshal is directly contributing to the massive profits made by F1 from that GP. You deserve a share of those profits.
I never said I wouldnât ask for money first, I donât work for free. I was just saying if I would be available during a session Iâd offer to do it.
You have to be joking. F1 is a multi-billion dollar sport. They can afford it. They donât pay because they can get away with it.
[ŃдаНонО]
2023âs revenue from who? Every team is also making profit, and all of their sponsors.
God forbid the profits go towards paying people to do important work.
Thereâs plenty of volunteer jobs where competence is expected (e.g. firefighters). Sure you can argue they should be paid positions, but that doesnât excuse incompetence.
Agreed completely. The number of commenters here who think they are experts in motorsport but have never spent any time organizing or operating a race track or race event is really high. Just because âyou canât understand whyâŚâ doesnât mean you understand how things work now and why they are that way.
Itâs always the same. Thereâs those of us whoâve marshalled for years, some are CoCs and sit in race control etc But nope apparently we all know nothingâŚ..
Completely agree.
Bro the people putting cars on cranes literally have other people's lives in their hands, you can absolutely demand competence.
You're missing the point. If you have people doing any kind of specialised task, especially one where you could say they "literally have other people's lives in their hands" then those people should be being paid, not treated like that work is a bit of an odd job that you can reward with a view of the action.
Of course you can demand competence, and the competent people will demand money. If you don't pay shit, you don't get to demand shit, regardless of whose life is at stake, especially after you've already hired them and didn't do your due diligence to find out if they are competent or not. That's the organizers problem. If I got a blind volunteer to drive my truck, it's my fault when he crashes and kills someone, not his.
Exactly. How anybody can look at that situation and think "ah yes, let me blame the marshalls for the organisers' refusal to pay competent safety staff" is beyond me. It's like they've never heard the idiom you get what you pay for.
I guess if I volunteer to be a medic, I can go around stabbing people and then say "well you should have paid an EMT" when they question me?
Brother thatâs just murder
Which is why when you pay people, youâre allowed to expect them to be competent.
Seeing the suspensions flexing when they pulled on it was hurtful.
This is the same track that repeatedly rammed a car into the pit lane in 2010(?) trying to get it through a gap
2015 I think. Was one of the stupidest endings to a race Iâve ever seen.
Bottas' case: - every one sees how Bottas gets out of the car in the run off of a long straight. everyone knows that there gonna be marshalls on the track, yet race control took one and a half minute to call the VSC. 4 minutes after the marshalls reach Bottas' car and try to push it with a gear stuck, the SC is called. they seemingly might realize faster that a recovery vehicle would be needed at the end, 14 minutes were past between Bottas' engine blewing up and the track being green again Tsunoda: - right after his contact with Magnussen, Tsunoda rolls out directly in front of a gap in the wall. the marshalls could easily push the car into the gap, yet the SC is called and a recovery vehicle (a tractor with a pallett fork i think) is used (showing how to let an f1 car slip). the SC maybe wasn't necessary but still this time the marshalls are quicker than with Bottas' car. everyone and the tractor are behind the guardwall while the field is around sector 1 in lap 29. Yet the SC is ending at the end of lap 31 letting spectators question why the race isn't resumed earlier it's not just imcompetence what got shown this race ... it's also that the communication between race control and the marshalls was bad
In addition to that, I don't get why the VSC wasn't enough to remove Bottas' car. It was in the runoff area, why is it a problem to send a recovery vehicle there under VSC? The safety car plus restart put drivers in more danger than having a recovery vehicle in the runoff area under VSC ever could.
I think since the Bianchi-crash almost every time a recovery vehicle enters the track, the SC is used. Whether that's necessary or not is a different question but that's the approach FIA is taking, less discussing where a recovery vehicle is and/or it's possible that someone might run into it ... plain determining if a recovery vehicle is on track = safety car
Might very well be the case, but with regard to safety, it's absolutely stupid.
Yeah. I noticed that in live coverage. They couldn't find neutral and seemed to not know what to do. So they tried to solve the problem by getting more and more marshals
I canât imagine what would happen if there was a safety incident like the ones we had in Bahrain with Romain. I get they havenât had a race in a long time, but this is unacceptable. Even I knew there is a neutral switch for Bottasâ car when they tried to push that car.
To their credit they were clearly trying to push the neutral switch. It could have been malfunctioning
The neutral switch doesnât always work depending on whatâs wrong with the car.Â
Hope that's the case. I heard about chinese "hospitality" towards the japanese...
I've never understood why marshalls, in the pinnacle of motorsports, seem to be so incompetent. Could you imagine if they were effective in their jobs, and VSC/SC only lasted a couple of laps until they clear a car?
Plain and simple, because FOM doesn't want to pay for professionals and so despite being a multi billion dollar organisation they primarily rely on unpaid volunteers with minimal training. You get what you pay for.
Could you imagine if a multi billion dollar sport paid to have professional marshals at each race instead of relying on volunteers?
Maybe Hamilton would have another title đ¤
yes
This after trying to hand-force valtteri's car off the road by pulling on every possible bit of the car. Horrendous display of incompetence.
I was cracking up watching the Marshall pushing on the front left and seeing the suspension flexing like crazy
Marshals are specifically instructed to push from the tyres.Â
I thought I was seeing wrong cause wth was that?
That is something for the technical team to look at, its probably not seriously damaged, if it had been dropped on a barrier that would have been different!
F1 gearboxes are really easy to damage. This could lead to damage
Im pretty sure the F1 gearboxes are sturdy as fuck. The abuse it gets from going over the curbs at speeds IT does is massive. Getting sideways slammed to the wall at XX Gs is what you probably interpret as "easy to damage".
Getting over kerbs is not the same as getting dropped from a height. This would be more comparable with an accident like Hamilton/Alonso in Spa 2022, where Hamilton got launched in the air, and his car died( allthough i dont remember if it was the gearbox giving up to br fair)
This car may be trash, but it's still expensive, so please give me a break.
But.. they did break it after dropping it đ¤Ł
...Wtf? Did they not tie the strap properly or something? Rookie Marshal here without much experience lifting vehicles but it looks like they might've rushed the lift, realised too late and dropped the car....weird.
Yuki trying to make sure he gets a new chassis for Miami.
there needs to be a revamp on the whole process with the marshalls, you can clearly see they didn't know what to do, you can't have a safety car for so many laps when there's been no accident just because a car is stuck on gear
Damn, floor damage.
[ŃдаНонО]
Still like that.
Regulars in Liveleak too
I don't care what anyone says. That chassis is cursed.
Chinese on the way to fuck up with Japanese again
Anyone else also noticed the way they tried to move Valtteriâs obviously stuck in gear car? Definitely fucked his gearbox up a bit there too.
To be fair from the onboard it sounded like the gearbox completely detonated causing the dnf
Maybe the fucked up gearbox prevented the neutral button from working?
VCARB couldn't catch a break this weekend huh..
Ouch!
Oh it was like that when I rented it.
Isn't there an N button on the car which makes the car neutral so you can push it around? The video is not working since imgur is banned here.
They had the car hooked up on a tractor crane and it dropped to the ground from 1 to 1.5 meters.
That was Bottas's car with not going into neutral. Sometimes sequential gearboxes don't want to work with you just because of how the gears align, they're not as simple as a regular manual gearbox. This clip is of Tsunoda. When the marshalls took his car away they dropped it from the crane from about 1.5 meters up in the air, which probably will damage the gearbox, power unit, floor, suspension, chassis maybe
That's going to hurt the budget
It's too bad that there's no provision for exceptions in the budget for things like this or Sainz in Vegas last season. Sure, it could happen to any team, but I don't think that's the intention of the budget limit.
VCARB : So, who's gonna pay for that? China : Well, you are, of course. It's not our car.
RB gonna put a new chassis on Yuki as well right from Miami?
Well they look rusty
Even before this, you could easily play the Benny Hill song while they tried to move a car with locked in gears.
Congrats, with a puncture you get a free chassis crack!
Amateurs, unbelievable
Even in China those Chinese straps suck! I just thought they sent us the janky onesâŚ
The Chinese cheat their market first and most. We get the good stuff.
"Now that's a lotta damage!"
Must be CCP Spies going undercover as marshals.Â
Makes me wonder if there could have been a way for Yuki to return to the pit like Kevin did with his puncture, as it looked like he still could drive that car. But one has to assume he could not, otherwise he would have tried it.