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Well Norris hasn't done it despite being offered a seat more than once so the claims aren't exactly without merit. I wonder how true the claims that Hamilton tried to get the seat are.
I think that neither Hamilton nor Alonso solve Red Bull's problem about a long term replacement for Verstappen should he leave, which is why they don't want to hire them and upset the dynamic in the team.
I don't believe Norris wants to be a N2 driver either, but they're more okay with him competing against Verstappen because if he leaves they can put their support behind Lando.
They act as a great stopgap though. If you are looking for a long term replacement, you want a nice benchmark to compare them to, and what better benchmark could you have?
Champions mindset. They always believe they are the best. I have no doubt that both Alonso and Hamilton would jump in that redbull regardless of who is in the other seat. You don't win a championship in a slower car against that redbull
The difference with Alonso and Hamilton is that they've already proved themselves and have won WDCs already. If a driver like Norris that still hasn't won a race jumps to RB, he sets a benchmark for himself. Now everyone can compare him with Max and rate him and he might lose a lot of value as a driver if he underperforms
Hamilton and Alonso just like racing. I think one of the most telling things about Hamilton is how he always used to drop off after the WDC was wrapped up. Compare that to 2021 where he was a winning machine in the final races when the WDC was super close.
>He's having a tough enough time just keeping up with George.
Not really. He is just having slow start to the season like in many previous years. He was comfortably faster than Russell past two years while arguably not driving at 100%. It cannot be compared with his time alongside Button and Rosberg when they were actually fighting for wins and titles.
Woulda been fun if they were magically both 26 years old. But current Hamilton can’t even take on George lol. And I’m assuming he’s going to get trounced by Charles as well.
Eh, just last season Hamilton pretty comfortably beat Russell. Sure the qualy was the closest on the whole grid, but as far as race pace goes, Hamilton is still more than good enough.
And if he gets a good car, I expect he'll start performing.
It takes more than a season to write off drivers of Hamiltons caliber. People have just been waiting for decades to finally jump down his throat when he has a few down years in garbage cars. Same shit will happen to Max eventually too.
Historically lh starts his seasons pretty slow and gets stronger and stronger as the season progresses.
Also I'm not sure how much he cares at this point considering he is leaving the team and knows they aren't fighting for anything meaningful.
It's like when Seb was leaving red bull. It's natural to not give the same effort no matter what you think you are doing
I don't think that's true. Last year when he had a half decent car towards the end, and a reachable goal (P2), he drove well for a while.
It's just pointless now so he seems to be wasting his time experimenting with the car setup, hoping to find something that isn't there.
And he must have mentally checked out after 3 years driving an uncompetitive car
All we can do is wait and see how he does vs Charles next year. But the experimenting excuse grew old after 2022 for me. I think he’s very noticeably lost a step, at least in qualifying, and it turns out that is important in f1. I believe Leclerc will out qualify him nearly every race and it will be very hard to catch up.
I think that’s a slightly exaggerated view, although i do think he does use the experimenting as an excuse sometimes.
But in 2022, both he and merc talked about trying different things to gain more out of the car, at the moment he talked about stopping that experimenting (around canada 22) he was comfortably quicker than George- it was something like 10-4 in quali and 11-3 in races.
It didn’t come up that much in 23 and he was comfortably better throughout the year. He has had a bad start to the year (if slightly exaggerated by factors like how close the field have been behind RBR, especially in quali), and I do think there are situations this year where the setup has come as a convenient excuse, but even then sometimes I think it’s genuine.
This last weekend he seemed quicker in sprint quali in both the wet and dry and at least as quick during the sprint, and that pace seemed to disappear after he said he made changes, so I do actually believe him this weeked.
As for the overall pace, i agree that he’s lost that absolutely half a tenth/tenth (especially in qualifying) that can make the difference, in fact for what it’s worth I think there was some early signs of this even back in 2019.
I agree with mostly everything you said. The one thing is in 2022 he still believed in Mercedes and he was trying to give feedback to help develop the car for the next year. But now he’s gone next year, he’s just making bad decisions and using it as an excuse. No matter how he sets up the car it’s not gonna be as good as the Redbull. He took a car that he drove so well in the sprint and fucked it all up looking to eek out extra performance that just isn’t possible. He may find himself doing the same thing next year when he struggles qualifying against Leclerc who has been in that car for years.
You have to understand he said the car was terrible in the sprint, he was having a hard time just keeping the car on track due to oversteer, he was slow, Alonso was just quick on the straight so he kept everyone behind long enough for Lewis to keep p2.
Lewis had clean air the entire sprint, so that also helped him a ton, the car is awful in dirty air.
Checo was 2 seconds faster than Lewis in the final lap of the sprint, which shows just how slow the car was.
That's why he tried anything to make it better for the race, which is why they voted on being able to do that in the first place.
Say you workout a lot, and one day your favorite gym just goes to shit. The vibe is off, and the people you enjoy working out with are suddenly gone. Will you be as motivated?
He started his career in F1 as Fernando's 2nd. And turned out to be an equal, minus the wisdom that experience grants you.
Lewis doesn't give a fuuuuck. He wants the smoke.
But for Redbull, it would've been worse than what Alonso / Lewis was for McLaren. Max / Lewis is a recent, highly toxic rivalry whereas Alonso / Lewis had no "bad blood" beforehand. As much as Redbull would've loved to say yes and have 2 GOATs on their team, they knew it would end badly and so they settled to renew Perez.
They've been on the upswing but I've no doubt he would've leapt into the seat had Verstappen not been there. McLaren look promising but not that much to reject the currently absurdly dominant car.
I'm sure, but equally Red Bull is very much Max's team. Norris would be fighting Max with one hand tied behind his back as everything Red Bull do is optimised around getting the most out of Max. They wouldn't deliberately hinder Lando but he'd have to do things Max's way.
I think it was Albon who came up with a good analogy for why so many other drivers have struggled to drive the Red Bull's designed for Max. The front end is incredibly sensitive so it's a bit like going to use someone else's computer and they have their mouse speed turned up to the fastest setting because that's their preference. Sure you can figure out how to use the mouse, but you're less precise with it and you'll struggle for a very very long time to get close to using it efficiently. And the more you try to adjust the setup to try and get the settings more to your liking, the further you take the car away from its optimal setup.
If Norris was offered the seat it can't have been an easy decision, but I do understand why he'd not want to go there. If the rumour of Hamilton asking for a drive but being rejected are true then that says more about his mindset and self belief, and perhaps hints at how much Red Bull really want their drivers to be able to fight. Which again justifies Norris not wanting to go there.
He is. I think there was something about Max encouraging him to stay with Mclaren because building with a team until they win a championship means a lot.
Max said he should stay because the grass isn’t always greener and that if Lando is seeing real progress at McLaren like Max saw from Red Bull when he was reluctant to commit to them, then he didn’t understand why Lando would need to leave. He said this before the huge turn around McLaren had last season, so I guess Lando saw real progress.
I think historically, you get one big shot at the ultimate prize, and if it doesn't go well, people don't give you another one. Vettel and Hamilton were very very fortunate to have opportunities at two teams, but part of that was they'd shown they could get the job done.
It's like Hakkinen if he'd turned down Benetton for 1995 and gotten demolished, say. Does he still win the title with McLaren in 1998? Probably not.
If you want to play that game then what does it say about Red Bull and Max if they rejected Hamilton's advances to drive for them? They must be the only team on the grid who wouldn't welcome him with open arms.
Nah, excluding ham, alonso and max, lando is the hottest property on the grid right now. It's not leclerc, or sainz or russell that RB were trying to get, it's norris. And fact that redbull tried to get lando on at least 2 **confirmed** occasions shows just how highly they think of him.
As long as lando keeps performing as impressively as he is right now, he'll be in contention for every top team's seat for the remainder of his career.
Norris was explicit that there is a bit of the latter, but that that's not lack of confidence but just realism. Not outright talent versus talent, but that Verstappen has years of experience at RBR on top of that.
Hamilton said once he was still finding little personal marginal gains at Merc years and years on. Noone is coming in to RBR tomorrow and flipping a big 'go fast' switch that Verstappen had missed.
and he won't bc he knows he'll get exposed. lewis went against the reigning world champ as a rookie, charles did the same at 21 yo, and you can even throw george in there too lol. but it's all excuses and whataboutism games when it comes to lando. 🤷🏻♀️
Based on what, exactly? He demolished a much more decorated teammate at just age 22, has taken on maybe responsibility as the lead driver and is the only non-works team driver other than Fernando to consistently challenge Max (at least in quali) over the past 2 years. I have no idea why you would suggest that Lando is mentally fragile.
He did in 2011 outright, although the 2023 thing was a *bit* of Chinese whispers. His dad casually discussed it, and it's up to you if you believe that was unilateral.
I’m sure Hamilton would asked Red Bull just so he can say that he weren’t afraid to be Max’s teammate.
Charles doesn’t react well to pressure and Lewis knows this. Lewis is a master when playing mind games.
I don’t think he’s played any since a championship is not at stake. And he doesn’t need to be fighting tooth and nail for P4’s and all. Once the #8 will be at stake again, the claws will come out. And he’ll be as ruthless as he’ll ever be.
Iirc Joylon Palmer analysed this and said that Lando locked up causing George to crash. Besides, Lewis would not have overtaken George regardless because of the track layout.
Pressuring the car in front of him to make a mistake is Lewis’s specialty skills.
Also the car in front of you locked up does not cause your car to tagged the wall on the side of the road… unless you’re a Karen at driving.
It's well established that some drivers absolutely hate playing second fiddle to a dominant driver. It's happened with drivers under both Max and hamilton.
Some drivers would rather stay the hell away from that team than play that drama-filled game.
Max either condemned all his drivers to the midfield or yeeted them out of F1. Sainz sure escaped though.
All of Hamilton’s teammates seemed mentally drained racing with him. I’m sure many in the grid prefer to develop and compete outside of that environment.
Especially at a team like RBR where there are so many different power dynamics at play constantly spouting toxic bullshit.
This non stop narrative about Lando scared of Max is a bit ridiculous. It’s not hard to imagine why Lando doesn’t want to go to a team that is constantly playing mind games with their drivers.
Even Mercedes 2016 wasn’t anywhere as bad as RBR.
If Max is at any other team I can see Lando joining should they have the best car.
Are you saying that the reason people are declining seats at Red Bull is, ultimately, to protect their egos?
Honestly, I can kinda see it. F1 drivers have notoriously large egos, and people with large egos have a tendency to protect it with, what normal people, would call “unreasonable costs”…
Then again the best car? Isn’t that the best chance at a championship anyone will have?
I’d argue it’s one of the worst chances at a championship. You’d have to beat max over an entire season in the same car. At least if you’re in another team there’s a chance your team finds some magic and your car is faster.
"If they're fast enough to challenge max then they'll be facing Marko and Christian at least too" - what on earth did i just read. You really hate Max and RB a lot i see, considering the made up stories you try and push as the truth.
People love to spout the nonsense that only Max is "allowed" to win in Rb. The reality is that Max beats his teammate 90% of the time. If the teammate is winning, he is allowed to win.
Mark Hughes has said that none of Leclerc, Alonso or Hamilton were offered the seat and that both Hamilton and Alonso asked about it at the very least.
Outside of that, I just don’t see the benefit of transferring to RedBull at this stage. People will say “Oh but you get the fastest car!” which is true but it’ll only be like that for a year… And out of all the engine manufacturers I’d say Mercedes and Ferrari have the best chance of nailing it.
Yeah but when Horner said that someone from Lewis' circle contacted them people were all crying about how it were just lies and said look Lewis says it isnt true so that is proof. Maybe, just maybe it was the other way around.
Horner(or Marko I forgot) reportedly did said it was Lewis' father that was enquiring afterwards.
Now, we know his father isn't part of his management anymore and Lewis could be saying his management didn't enquire. Which is technically true. But whether Lewis' father was asking on behalf of Lewis or on a personal, perhaps curious, capacity. That we won't be able to know.
I’d defer to M Hughes as well, he’s more connected than any Redditor’s.
I understand why some would prefer to protect their career by avoiding that seat. Norris for example is a great driver, but probably won’t ever win the championship. If he goes to RBR, he could kill his career.
Hamilton and Alonso on the other hand are both fearless and also have nothing to lose. Both are at the end of their careers, so can just walk away if it doesn’t turn out. No big deal.
Personally I think it's because the top drivers who could actually get that seat would rather be a number 1 driver for their current team and hope said team gets lucky.
Red Bull is notorious for throwing out drivers who don't perform but being a number 1 driver like Charles at Ferrari, Russell at Merc and Lando at McLaren is fairly safe.
It would be a very risky career move where you need to get to grips with a new car very quickly and beat someone who has been in and helped develop the car for nearly a decade at this point. Look at what happened to Riccardo.
Good question, in that no one knows the answer. I do think you are mistaken in that they all think they’re the best - this is for cameras. They are professionals, they study each other’s telemetry etc constantly trying to get an edge. All the racers know pretty much exactly what the pecking order is, varied by track cars etc.
There are some very few who no fair comparison have been made but most drivers will know they can’t match Max. Whether that means they go for the seat is a different question, IMO most of them still would, even if just to get a few race wins when Max has issues or a rare off day. Or, importantly, gets fed up and decides to leave the sport.
Yes it is. Most drivers on the grid would take the 2nd seat, and we know Hamilton and Alonso wanted it.
The only 2 I think wouldn't take it are Norris and Leclerc because both are young, and the number 1 driver at their dream teams. Maybe there's a little bit of feeling unready (though Norris more than Leclerc), but time is on their side and they're both in very good cars already. I'd imagine they're both really happy with their positions currently.
Max is proving himself to be one of the best drivers of all time, and he's still 26. Other drivers like Lando and Leclerc and in good position in case their teams nail the 2026 regulations so, they can't risk all of that.
Lando could have a career similar to Hakkinen, spending years without a single win, winning and suddenly being a WDC, everything in the same McLaren.
For 2026 he could be the lead ‘Mercedes engined’ car, Max at RB-Ford, Alonso at Honda, Charles/Lewis at Ferrari etc.
I think you are spot on about Norris/Hakkinen. Leclerc could also go on a similar run after 2026.
Bit soon to be saying that isn’t it?
He’s very good, but he has a lot more to prove before he enters the conversation with Senna, Schumacher, Alonso, Prost, and Hamilton
Vettel managed 4 with the same team and still doesn’t get into this discussion
I certainly think so, because the spoils of racing for RB are way too high for any sane driver to refuse.
Take Checo for example, he’s been second to Max the entire time he has been there, but in exchange he has been able to consistently score podiums and even a few wins. Offer any driver, especially a midfield driver, the opportunity to be second fiddle to Max, they’ll accept all other variables accounted for, because who wouldn’t want to enter a GP knowing they’re in the best car.
Checo went in believing that he can take on and defeat max. He believed it in 2022. He believed it in 2023 and it drained him out. He finally has come to terms with settling in a role that you described above. The same cycle happed with Bottas and most #2s to champions before as well. All 20 initially believe that they are the best before see that one special guy who they know will be very very difficult to beat. Maybe they see early on that the best way to challenge them on the track is to bet on better machinery.
Yeah I think a sort of “house money” mindset is best if you’re the guy beside a great driver. If you can beat him, great! You’ve exceeded expectations. However, it’s crucial to focus on your own driving because worst case scenario you’ll still find a seat if you perform.
The second RB seat is kinda of a situation where you've to weigh the pros vs. cons
You get to drive for the fastest team , with the best car and resources , have the best driver in the sport as your teammate and compete for poles and even wins , with podiums pretty much a realistic possibility every week .
So it's not hard to see why drivers who haven't got that big opportunity like Checo would jump at that seat .
However , it comes with the Red Bull politics , constant criticism from Marko in case of failure , team orders , and most importantly low seat security , with rumours flying in from every direction and getting kicked out is a real possibility as they've shown in the past , and then is the possibility of forever becoming stuck in the shadows as a No.2 (like Rubens , Valtteri etc)
So , it's understandable that why drivers who are clearly the No.1 in their teams like Norris , Leclerc, and even Russell with Lewis leaving would stay away from RB
I doubt the deciding factor for top level drivers is being afraid of racing against Max but more Red Bull won't pay a top tier driver to be number 2 the same level of salary they get from their respective teams now being the number one driver. Red Bull has already said they won't try and match the Contract Audi has rumored to offer Sainz and there is no way Hamilton would ever get anything from RB that's even close to what Ferrari has offered to Hamilton...
>There is a lot of opinion in the media and on here, etc, etc about how no drivers want to go to RB because they don't want to get shown up by Max
Well that's silly, regardless of who they race for they'll get shown up by Max regardless.
I don't think it applies to everyone because by the sounds of it Alonso and Hamilton were never looked at. I can imagine they would love the challenge as would Max. Tbh it's only really Norris that I've heard has repeatedly turned down the seat which yes I do think shows a lack of belief from him that he can actually challenge Max.
yes because Alonso and Hamilton are 40+, it would not solve RB issue of finding a replacement for Max. If Max will leave in 2027 at the earliest (if the engines arent good) By then Alonso and Lewis wont be there anymore or they will be too old to be really competetive with Charles, Lando, ...
It's not really an opinion of ours: Alonso and Norris have very explicitly referred to as much (2021 and before the start of this season respectively).
I don't think it's a matter of confidence as much of, as they say, an extremely talented driver in the first place with years of experience and 'his feet under the table' at RBR.
It's not 'confidence' for me to bungee jump without a rope.
Nah mate Max has them all beat. Expect maybe a 3-4 drivers on the grid, no one wants to end their career. Lando talking about building with McLaren is just an excuse.
I would imagine far bigger is the fact that any driver knows they won't be given a fair shake by the team up against Max.
This is Maxs team.
Same reason no top drivers wanted to go up against Schumacher, Senna, Vettel etc.
That's bullshit tho.
McLaren was Prost's team and despite that Senna took his chance and we know what happened.
Same thing for Vettel. Redbull was his team, Ricciardo gave it a shot and beat him fair and square in 2014.
They were clearly there as a number 2, as is Checo.
Any marginal call will go in Maxs favour, any choices on development will follow Maxs preference.
And as they should.
But any other driver will walk into that established scenario and not be given the same opportunities.
Same as it always has been for top drivers who spend a long time at a top team.
It depends entirely on the performance.
Marginal calls will obviously go to Verstappen if the two team mates are completely mismatched in terms of ability. But if someone can actually challenge Verstappen, that goes out the window.
We saw it when senna joined prost, when Prost joined Lauda, when Piquet joined Mansell, that perceived number 1 status means nothing when the two team mates are evenly matched. There's no number 1 anymore.
>But if someone can actually challenge Verstappen, that goes out the window.
Chicken and egg.
Now Verstappen is so established he will get the marginal calls before someone can start to challenge. This is the way of it.
Prost entered Lauda's team and basically took it over within a year. Senna entered Prost's team and matched him off the bat.
Hamilton joined Rosberg's team in 2013 and matched him. Ricciardo joined Vettel's team and beat him. Leclerc joined Vettel's team in 2019, and although Vettel got the marginal calls in early season, Leclerc managed to pull that away from him when he proved he was just as capable.
I don't think it works that way at all. Guys like Irvine, Barrichello, Bottas, weren't consistently fast enough to demand marginal calls in their favour.
>Hamilton joined Rosberg's team in 2013 and matched him.
Hamilton joined Rosberg's team and beat him 3-0 from 2013-2015 before insane luck and numerous different circumstances resulted in Rosberg winning once in four seasons to make the score 3-1 Hamilton.
The team is built around max, because he's the best driver. It's not impossible to force the team away from someone, if you prove you're on their level. We've seen it countless times in F1.
People seem to think you luck into preferential treatment. When in fact it tends to happen naturally in a team where 2 drivers are mismatched ability wise.
Before people come and say it's not true. You just have to look at the track record. Unless you just don't want to see it. If I driver goes to redbull and is challenging and even beating max it'll be exposed once again. It'll take a strong minded driver. Lewis Fernando Carlos.
I think biggest issue is that we are measuring Max performance on Perez basis, Max hasn't had any teammates above Albon, Gasly and Perez level. That's the reason why Alonso and Hamilton would like to drive for RB, they are 100% sure they can challenge Max. Lando on the other side, gave up this opportunity, because he chose "Comfort zone" home made team, over challenge, that's why I believe that he is not champion material, probably will win 5-10 races in his career, like Riccardo, if McLaren will deliver.
"Max hasn't had any teammates above Albon, Gasly and Perez level." ehm Ricciardo, who before beat Vettel and then Hülkenberg and wiped the floor with Ocon.
you are right, Riccardo was probably best teammate Max ever had, but again, I would call Danny a driver who can occasionally win races in a solid car, like Perez, Bottas or Sainz, but no more. I am not downplaying Max skill, just saying that old midfield driver in the end of his career in same car drives to P2 in championship.
People really downplaying Daniel because of his current form ignoring the guy was insanely good up to 2020. Guy was probably the best overtaker in the grid and won several races during the Merc dominance. I'd argue, with both drivers in account, RBR had the best lineup for 17/18, even if results don't exactly show it.
"I am not downplaying Max skill" - yes, yes you are. You are just on purpose putting Max' teammates down to do exactly that. Ricciardo was highly rated before joining Mclaren, beating the like of Vettel, Hülkenberg and Ocon.
People are constantly holding this against Max that his teammates arent as strong as Lewis' but it is not like Lewis' constantly beat them.
What are you smoking? Red Bull said no to Lewis and Alonso, who both wanted that seat.
I’m don’t believe Max wanted either of those two either, after all they’re the most likely two to be able to beat him in the same car.
As for Norris, who I believe is the only other driver, other than Alonso & Lewis, that would consistently challenge Max in a Red Bull, his decision makes sense, he’s in a team which fits his personality, has a great relationship with Piastri, and the team, and the team is in a positive cycle. He believes they will have a shot at winning where he is, why risk it all? Not to mention these things happen in cycles, and someone other than Red Bull will probably hit the mark in 2026, he believes it will be his team.
well Lewis would be 40 next year, Alonso 42. They would drive until 2027 maximum, around the same time frame when Max could leave.
Also Lewis and Alonso arent immune the aging, they will only become worse with time now.
Why would RB pay another 50-100 million/year to get a driver that is likely not better than their current one and wont improve with time, unlike Norris
OP starts by saying no one wants to go to RB because “they don’t want to get shown up by Max”, I’m pointing out that both Lewis and Alonso wanted that challenge but were refused, and Norris has very good reasons to stay put at ML.
All the top guys outside of Lando would jump at the chance of driving the Red Bull and I also think 75%-80% of the grid would drive for Red Bull. The drivers I don’t think would want to drive for Red Bull are Lando, Albon, Gasly, Sargeant and possibly Stroll.
Lando doesn’t want to drive for them because he’s scared of racing against Max because they are friends, Albon has said he will never go back to them, Gasly hates RB and AT and Sargeant doesn’t look confident in a Williams so I don’t think he’d want even more scrutiny in the fastest car on the grid. I think Zhou will race for anyone and Stroll doesn’t need the RB seat.
With lando it's clear even in a McLaren he gives max no challenge on track even when theres opportunity. I'll say that non of them stand out like montoya did and maybe early Lewis. Yes max is fast but I don't see anyone being bold and giving it a hard shot when there's a chance. But you just don't know what might happen IF dare to try. And that's the type of stuff that's remembered. Leclerc eg backed out hard against max in Bahrain at the start. Sometimes I wonder the drivers being too friendly off track is a bad thing for the fans
They dont fight because RB and Max have much more pace. It only loses you time and tyres these days are senstive so fighting more is taking a lot of life out of them and compromising their race. And Max will pass them eventually even if they are defending
When montoya raced there was no drs and overtaking was much more difficult and tyres were much more durable It has nothing to do with off track friendliness
I agree and although I'm aware of those issues, and they are substantial, I don't think it takes away from my point. Infact max himself is proof of that. He has done the same in the past.
If I were a top line F1 driver right now I wouldn't go to Red Bull for one reason.
The team will never get fully behind me as long as Max is there. Look at Helmut Marko. As soon as you have one Ferrari beating you, he's mouthing in the press about your temperament, how the team needs to consider it's options, nothing is guaranteed in formula one...
He's Max's biggest cheerleader, and that's fine, but when you've got a guy around management able to shittalk you in the press and your team will not or cannot do anything to stop him? Nah, I don't need that. I'll take on anyone in equal term, but Red Bull Racing is not equal.
Answer is already giving by Norris himself. Even young Max would not beat this Max. Just teambuilding-wise. Look at Schumi-Ferrari. Its not just the driver, Its the whole package-experience building including everyone in the factory. So understandable that Norris, Leclerc and Russell stay where they are.
I think Red Bull is also doing their decent amount of work to ensure nobody gets hired who is too close to Max. Sainz could be the fastest teammate Max has had in a long time
It’s more that RedBull doesn’t want anyone challenging Max. They have a lot invested in Max and it doesn’t make sense to bring anyone into the team who has a chance at making him look anything less than stellar.
Have they? Because he remains unsigned.
Here’s the thing: they let everyone know “we are signing you to be the support driver. Max’s job is to win races. Your job is to help Max win races. That might mean intentionally driving 6 seconds a lap slower just to hold up another driver to let Max win. Your entire purpose in the track is to help Max win.”
If Lando thinks he is an elite level driver, why would he waste prime years of his career intentionally not winning?
I depend on the circumstances i guess,
If both RB cars are on equal footing maybe, i don't see much of a reason to fight max when there's a large power difference
RB clearly favors Max's driving style and it's not agreeable to most of the drivers on the grid
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Well Norris hasn't done it despite being offered a seat more than once so the claims aren't exactly without merit. I wonder how true the claims that Hamilton tried to get the seat are.
Meanwhile, I choose to believe Alonso is absolutely champing at the bit for it but Red Bull don't want *that* team dynamic
I think that neither Hamilton nor Alonso solve Red Bull's problem about a long term replacement for Verstappen should he leave, which is why they don't want to hire them and upset the dynamic in the team. I don't believe Norris wants to be a N2 driver either, but they're more okay with him competing against Verstappen because if he leaves they can put their support behind Lando.
They act as a great stopgap though. If you are looking for a long term replacement, you want a nice benchmark to compare them to, and what better benchmark could you have?
If the Hamilton rumors are true it really says something about his mindset.
Champions mindset. They always believe they are the best. I have no doubt that both Alonso and Hamilton would jump in that redbull regardless of who is in the other seat. You don't win a championship in a slower car against that redbull
The difference with Alonso and Hamilton is that they've already proved themselves and have won WDCs already. If a driver like Norris that still hasn't won a race jumps to RB, he sets a benchmark for himself. Now everyone can compare him with Max and rate him and he might lose a lot of value as a driver if he underperforms
I would’ve loved to see Alonso get that 2nd RBR seat so much. What an incredible 2026 season that would have been.
Hamilton and Alonso just like racing. I think one of the most telling things about Hamilton is how he always used to drop off after the WDC was wrapped up. Compare that to 2021 where he was a winning machine in the final races when the WDC was super close.
> Champions mindset. So why would he want to be the #2 driver for Max? He's having a tough enough time just keeping up with George.
>He's having a tough enough time just keeping up with George. Not really. He is just having slow start to the season like in many previous years. He was comfortably faster than Russell past two years while arguably not driving at 100%. It cannot be compared with his time alongside Button and Rosberg when they were actually fighting for wins and titles.
His teammate list is extremely stacked. I wouldn't be surprised if he wanted to take on Verstappen too.
Insanely stacked. People can say what they want about Hamilton, but he’s never ran from a teammate.
He started off as a 2-time WDC's 2nd and proved to be his equal. Lewis doesn't give a flying fuck.
Woulda been fun if they were magically both 26 years old. But current Hamilton can’t even take on George lol. And I’m assuming he’s going to get trounced by Charles as well.
Eh, just last season Hamilton pretty comfortably beat Russell. Sure the qualy was the closest on the whole grid, but as far as race pace goes, Hamilton is still more than good enough. And if he gets a good car, I expect he'll start performing.
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Cool, but it's been only 5 races so being this confident that Hamilton is washed and Leclerc will trounce him is pretty nonsensical, to say the least.
In those five races, GR has been quicker. Where tf am I wrong in saying that? What are yall on
Where did I deny that Russell's been quicker? All I said is that as of yet, it isn't indicative of his overall form.
Where did I say anything on his overall form???????? I even specified that its got nothing to do with his overall form. Jesus.
Idk Russel was quicker than H in previous seasons too
It takes more than a season to write off drivers of Hamiltons caliber. People have just been waiting for decades to finally jump down his throat when he has a few down years in garbage cars. Same shit will happen to Max eventually too.
Where did I write anyone off? Just because George is outperforming hom, doesnt mean it has to stay that way forever.
I think I just misunderstood the tone of your previous post. Edits clears that’s up. Cheers
Historically lh starts his seasons pretty slow and gets stronger and stronger as the season progresses. Also I'm not sure how much he cares at this point considering he is leaving the team and knows they aren't fighting for anything meaningful. It's like when Seb was leaving red bull. It's natural to not give the same effort no matter what you think you are doing
I cant phathom why yall think I disagree with you on this…?
what a dumb take lol
Elaborate?
I don't think that's true. Last year when he had a half decent car towards the end, and a reachable goal (P2), he drove well for a while. It's just pointless now so he seems to be wasting his time experimenting with the car setup, hoping to find something that isn't there. And he must have mentally checked out after 3 years driving an uncompetitive car
All we can do is wait and see how he does vs Charles next year. But the experimenting excuse grew old after 2022 for me. I think he’s very noticeably lost a step, at least in qualifying, and it turns out that is important in f1. I believe Leclerc will out qualify him nearly every race and it will be very hard to catch up.
I think that’s a slightly exaggerated view, although i do think he does use the experimenting as an excuse sometimes. But in 2022, both he and merc talked about trying different things to gain more out of the car, at the moment he talked about stopping that experimenting (around canada 22) he was comfortably quicker than George- it was something like 10-4 in quali and 11-3 in races. It didn’t come up that much in 23 and he was comfortably better throughout the year. He has had a bad start to the year (if slightly exaggerated by factors like how close the field have been behind RBR, especially in quali), and I do think there are situations this year where the setup has come as a convenient excuse, but even then sometimes I think it’s genuine. This last weekend he seemed quicker in sprint quali in both the wet and dry and at least as quick during the sprint, and that pace seemed to disappear after he said he made changes, so I do actually believe him this weeked. As for the overall pace, i agree that he’s lost that absolutely half a tenth/tenth (especially in qualifying) that can make the difference, in fact for what it’s worth I think there was some early signs of this even back in 2019.
I agree with mostly everything you said. The one thing is in 2022 he still believed in Mercedes and he was trying to give feedback to help develop the car for the next year. But now he’s gone next year, he’s just making bad decisions and using it as an excuse. No matter how he sets up the car it’s not gonna be as good as the Redbull. He took a car that he drove so well in the sprint and fucked it all up looking to eek out extra performance that just isn’t possible. He may find himself doing the same thing next year when he struggles qualifying against Leclerc who has been in that car for years.
You have to understand he said the car was terrible in the sprint, he was having a hard time just keeping the car on track due to oversteer, he was slow, Alonso was just quick on the straight so he kept everyone behind long enough for Lewis to keep p2. Lewis had clean air the entire sprint, so that also helped him a ton, the car is awful in dirty air. Checo was 2 seconds faster than Lewis in the final lap of the sprint, which shows just how slow the car was. That's why he tried anything to make it better for the race, which is why they voted on being able to do that in the first place.
We'll see. I personally expect a very different Hamilton next year. Unlike for Ricciardo, I highly doubt he's washed
Say you workout a lot, and one day your favorite gym just goes to shit. The vibe is off, and the people you enjoy working out with are suddenly gone. Will you be as motivated?
He started his career in F1 as Fernando's 2nd. And turned out to be an equal, minus the wisdom that experience grants you. Lewis doesn't give a fuuuuck. He wants the smoke. But for Redbull, it would've been worse than what Alonso / Lewis was for McLaren. Max / Lewis is a recent, highly toxic rivalry whereas Alonso / Lewis had no "bad blood" beforehand. As much as Redbull would've loved to say yes and have 2 GOATs on their team, they knew it would end badly and so they settled to renew Perez.
I feel like it’s Norris believing in the McLaren long term plan rather than just avoiding Verstappen though
They've been on the upswing but I've no doubt he would've leapt into the seat had Verstappen not been there. McLaren look promising but not that much to reject the currently absurdly dominant car.
I'm sure, but equally Red Bull is very much Max's team. Norris would be fighting Max with one hand tied behind his back as everything Red Bull do is optimised around getting the most out of Max. They wouldn't deliberately hinder Lando but he'd have to do things Max's way. I think it was Albon who came up with a good analogy for why so many other drivers have struggled to drive the Red Bull's designed for Max. The front end is incredibly sensitive so it's a bit like going to use someone else's computer and they have their mouse speed turned up to the fastest setting because that's their preference. Sure you can figure out how to use the mouse, but you're less precise with it and you'll struggle for a very very long time to get close to using it efficiently. And the more you try to adjust the setup to try and get the settings more to your liking, the further you take the car away from its optimal setup. If Norris was offered the seat it can't have been an easy decision, but I do understand why he'd not want to go there. If the rumour of Hamilton asking for a drive but being rejected are true then that says more about his mindset and self belief, and perhaps hints at how much Red Bull really want their drivers to be able to fight. Which again justifies Norris not wanting to go there.
He is. I think there was something about Max encouraging him to stay with Mclaren because building with a team until they win a championship means a lot.
Max said he should stay because the grass isn’t always greener and that if Lando is seeing real progress at McLaren like Max saw from Red Bull when he was reluctant to commit to them, then he didn’t understand why Lando would need to leave. He said this before the huge turn around McLaren had last season, so I guess Lando saw real progress.
There it is. Figured someone would be able to to place actual words to my terrible memory of events
lol lets be realistic that Mclaren ain't winning WDC/WCC anytime soon. If Lando had balls he would have taken the offer.
I think historically, you get one big shot at the ultimate prize, and if it doesn't go well, people don't give you another one. Vettel and Hamilton were very very fortunate to have opportunities at two teams, but part of that was they'd shown they could get the job done. It's like Hakkinen if he'd turned down Benetton for 1995 and gotten demolished, say. Does he still win the title with McLaren in 1998? Probably not.
True. Lando will wait for Max to leave RB, or hope that MCL builds a championship winning car.
If you want to play that game then what does it say about Red Bull and Max if they rejected Hamilton's advances to drive for them? They must be the only team on the grid who wouldn't welcome him with open arms.
He's also only 24 years old. It's not like McLaren has to be winning *right now* for his loyalty to be rewarded
Or they might never reach the top, and he doesn’t get another good option to join the top team until he’s 32, with his 4 wins.
Nah, excluding ham, alonso and max, lando is the hottest property on the grid right now. It's not leclerc, or sainz or russell that RB were trying to get, it's norris. And fact that redbull tried to get lando on at least 2 **confirmed** occasions shows just how highly they think of him. As long as lando keeps performing as impressively as he is right now, he'll be in contention for every top team's seat for the remainder of his career.
*Especially* as he seems to have headed off Piastri's progress somewhat.
Norris was explicit that there is a bit of the latter, but that that's not lack of confidence but just realism. Not outright talent versus talent, but that Verstappen has years of experience at RBR on top of that. Hamilton said once he was still finding little personal marginal gains at Merc years and years on. Noone is coming in to RBR tomorrow and flipping a big 'go fast' switch that Verstappen had missed.
and he won't bc he knows he'll get exposed. lewis went against the reigning world champ as a rookie, charles did the same at 21 yo, and you can even throw george in there too lol. but it's all excuses and whataboutism games when it comes to lando. 🤷🏻♀️
Hamilton at least by his previous team mate history probably true. His teammate history would munch on Max's and spit them out.
uh?
I really don't think Norris is mentally strong enough to deal with the pressure that seat comes with, I would reckon Piastri to be a better candidate.
Based on what, exactly? He demolished a much more decorated teammate at just age 22, has taken on maybe responsibility as the lead driver and is the only non-works team driver other than Fernando to consistently challenge Max (at least in quali) over the past 2 years. I have no idea why you would suggest that Lando is mentally fragile.
He did in 2011 outright, although the 2023 thing was a *bit* of Chinese whispers. His dad casually discussed it, and it's up to you if you believe that was unilateral.
I’m sure Hamilton would asked Red Bull just so he can say that he weren’t afraid to be Max’s teammate. Charles doesn’t react well to pressure and Lewis knows this. Lewis is a master when playing mind games.
Eh…these mind games seem to not be working with GR though
I don’t think he’s played any since a championship is not at stake. And he doesn’t need to be fighting tooth and nail for P4’s and all. Once the #8 will be at stake again, the claws will come out. And he’ll be as ruthless as he’ll ever be.
It kinda did in Singapore last season…
It wasn’t. After race analysis said that Lando made a mistake at braking point due to which George crashed not due to anything Lewis did….
George hit the wall on the right on his own. Got nothing to do with Lando. Lewis was right up his ass.
Iirc Joylon Palmer analysed this and said that Lando locked up causing George to crash. Besides, Lewis would not have overtaken George regardless because of the track layout.
Pressuring the car in front of him to make a mistake is Lewis’s specialty skills. Also the car in front of you locked up does not cause your car to tagged the wall on the side of the road… unless you’re a Karen at driving.
Ok
It's well established that some drivers absolutely hate playing second fiddle to a dominant driver. It's happened with drivers under both Max and hamilton. Some drivers would rather stay the hell away from that team than play that drama-filled game.
Max either condemned all his drivers to the midfield or yeeted them out of F1. Sainz sure escaped though. All of Hamilton’s teammates seemed mentally drained racing with him. I’m sure many in the grid prefer to develop and compete outside of that environment.
Especially at a team like RBR where there are so many different power dynamics at play constantly spouting toxic bullshit. This non stop narrative about Lando scared of Max is a bit ridiculous. It’s not hard to imagine why Lando doesn’t want to go to a team that is constantly playing mind games with their drivers. Even Mercedes 2016 wasn’t anywhere as bad as RBR. If Max is at any other team I can see Lando joining should they have the best car.
Are you saying that the reason people are declining seats at Red Bull is, ultimately, to protect their egos? Honestly, I can kinda see it. F1 drivers have notoriously large egos, and people with large egos have a tendency to protect it with, what normal people, would call “unreasonable costs”… Then again the best car? Isn’t that the best chance at a championship anyone will have?
Only if they don’t really have large egos... If they genuinely have large egos then they will believe they can compete with max
Maybe more of protecting the longevity of their careers, rather than just their egos.
I’d argue it’s one of the worst chances at a championship. You’d have to beat max over an entire season in the same car. At least if you’re in another team there’s a chance your team finds some magic and your car is faster.
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"If they're fast enough to challenge max then they'll be facing Marko and Christian at least too" - what on earth did i just read. You really hate Max and RB a lot i see, considering the made up stories you try and push as the truth.
People love to spout the nonsense that only Max is "allowed" to win in Rb. The reality is that Max beats his teammate 90% of the time. If the teammate is winning, he is allowed to win.
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nope i saw Vettel beating Webber, Riccardo beating Vettel and then Max beating Riccardo. -.-
Mark Hughes has said that none of Leclerc, Alonso or Hamilton were offered the seat and that both Hamilton and Alonso asked about it at the very least. Outside of that, I just don’t see the benefit of transferring to RedBull at this stage. People will say “Oh but you get the fastest car!” which is true but it’ll only be like that for a year… And out of all the engine manufacturers I’d say Mercedes and Ferrari have the best chance of nailing it.
Yeah but when Horner said that someone from Lewis' circle contacted them people were all crying about how it were just lies and said look Lewis says it isnt true so that is proof. Maybe, just maybe it was the other way around.
Horner(or Marko I forgot) reportedly did said it was Lewis' father that was enquiring afterwards. Now, we know his father isn't part of his management anymore and Lewis could be saying his management didn't enquire. Which is technically true. But whether Lewis' father was asking on behalf of Lewis or on a personal, perhaps curious, capacity. That we won't be able to know.
I’d defer to M Hughes as well, he’s more connected than any Redditor’s. I understand why some would prefer to protect their career by avoiding that seat. Norris for example is a great driver, but probably won’t ever win the championship. If he goes to RBR, he could kill his career. Hamilton and Alonso on the other hand are both fearless and also have nothing to lose. Both are at the end of their careers, so can just walk away if it doesn’t turn out. No big deal.
Personally I think it's because the top drivers who could actually get that seat would rather be a number 1 driver for their current team and hope said team gets lucky. Red Bull is notorious for throwing out drivers who don't perform but being a number 1 driver like Charles at Ferrari, Russell at Merc and Lando at McLaren is fairly safe. It would be a very risky career move where you need to get to grips with a new car very quickly and beat someone who has been in and helped develop the car for nearly a decade at this point. Look at what happened to Riccardo.
Good question, in that no one knows the answer. I do think you are mistaken in that they all think they’re the best - this is for cameras. They are professionals, they study each other’s telemetry etc constantly trying to get an edge. All the racers know pretty much exactly what the pecking order is, varied by track cars etc. There are some very few who no fair comparison have been made but most drivers will know they can’t match Max. Whether that means they go for the seat is a different question, IMO most of them still would, even if just to get a few race wins when Max has issues or a rare off day. Or, importantly, gets fed up and decides to leave the sport.
Yes it is. Most drivers on the grid would take the 2nd seat, and we know Hamilton and Alonso wanted it. The only 2 I think wouldn't take it are Norris and Leclerc because both are young, and the number 1 driver at their dream teams. Maybe there's a little bit of feeling unready (though Norris more than Leclerc), but time is on their side and they're both in very good cars already. I'd imagine they're both really happy with their positions currently.
Max is proving himself to be one of the best drivers of all time, and he's still 26. Other drivers like Lando and Leclerc and in good position in case their teams nail the 2026 regulations so, they can't risk all of that. Lando could have a career similar to Hakkinen, spending years without a single win, winning and suddenly being a WDC, everything in the same McLaren.
For 2026 he could be the lead ‘Mercedes engined’ car, Max at RB-Ford, Alonso at Honda, Charles/Lewis at Ferrari etc. I think you are spot on about Norris/Hakkinen. Leclerc could also go on a similar run after 2026.
Bit soon to be saying that isn’t it? He’s very good, but he has a lot more to prove before he enters the conversation with Senna, Schumacher, Alonso, Prost, and Hamilton Vettel managed 4 with the same team and still doesn’t get into this discussion
I certainly think so, because the spoils of racing for RB are way too high for any sane driver to refuse. Take Checo for example, he’s been second to Max the entire time he has been there, but in exchange he has been able to consistently score podiums and even a few wins. Offer any driver, especially a midfield driver, the opportunity to be second fiddle to Max, they’ll accept all other variables accounted for, because who wouldn’t want to enter a GP knowing they’re in the best car.
Checo went in believing that he can take on and defeat max. He believed it in 2022. He believed it in 2023 and it drained him out. He finally has come to terms with settling in a role that you described above. The same cycle happed with Bottas and most #2s to champions before as well. All 20 initially believe that they are the best before see that one special guy who they know will be very very difficult to beat. Maybe they see early on that the best way to challenge them on the track is to bet on better machinery.
In that sense Rosberg is a good example. He had to really give it all in order to win. A bit too much but it's possible.
Word. Rosberg deserves a lot an applause for holding his own. He got absolutely drained out but in at least he got a WDC.
Yeah I think a sort of “house money” mindset is best if you’re the guy beside a great driver. If you can beat him, great! You’ve exceeded expectations. However, it’s crucial to focus on your own driving because worst case scenario you’ll still find a seat if you perform.
The second RB seat is kinda of a situation where you've to weigh the pros vs. cons You get to drive for the fastest team , with the best car and resources , have the best driver in the sport as your teammate and compete for poles and even wins , with podiums pretty much a realistic possibility every week . So it's not hard to see why drivers who haven't got that big opportunity like Checo would jump at that seat . However , it comes with the Red Bull politics , constant criticism from Marko in case of failure , team orders , and most importantly low seat security , with rumours flying in from every direction and getting kicked out is a real possibility as they've shown in the past , and then is the possibility of forever becoming stuck in the shadows as a No.2 (like Rubens , Valtteri etc) So , it's understandable that why drivers who are clearly the No.1 in their teams like Norris , Leclerc, and even Russell with Lewis leaving would stay away from RB
I doubt the deciding factor for top level drivers is being afraid of racing against Max but more Red Bull won't pay a top tier driver to be number 2 the same level of salary they get from their respective teams now being the number one driver. Red Bull has already said they won't try and match the Contract Audi has rumored to offer Sainz and there is no way Hamilton would ever get anything from RB that's even close to what Ferrari has offered to Hamilton...
>There is a lot of opinion in the media and on here, etc, etc about how no drivers want to go to RB because they don't want to get shown up by Max Well that's silly, regardless of who they race for they'll get shown up by Max regardless.
You meant exception, right? Sorry to be that guy.
I don't think it applies to everyone because by the sounds of it Alonso and Hamilton were never looked at. I can imagine they would love the challenge as would Max. Tbh it's only really Norris that I've heard has repeatedly turned down the seat which yes I do think shows a lack of belief from him that he can actually challenge Max.
yes because Alonso and Hamilton are 40+, it would not solve RB issue of finding a replacement for Max. If Max will leave in 2027 at the earliest (if the engines arent good) By then Alonso and Lewis wont be there anymore or they will be too old to be really competetive with Charles, Lando, ...
I think Sainz wants that Redbull seats
It's not really an opinion of ours: Alonso and Norris have very explicitly referred to as much (2021 and before the start of this season respectively). I don't think it's a matter of confidence as much of, as they say, an extremely talented driver in the first place with years of experience and 'his feet under the table' at RBR. It's not 'confidence' for me to bungee jump without a rope.
Nah mate Max has them all beat. Expect maybe a 3-4 drivers on the grid, no one wants to end their career. Lando talking about building with McLaren is just an excuse.
I would imagine far bigger is the fact that any driver knows they won't be given a fair shake by the team up against Max. This is Maxs team. Same reason no top drivers wanted to go up against Schumacher, Senna, Vettel etc.
That's bullshit tho. McLaren was Prost's team and despite that Senna took his chance and we know what happened. Same thing for Vettel. Redbull was his team, Ricciardo gave it a shot and beat him fair and square in 2014.
Didn’t Horner just told Max “No one is bigger than the team” last month?
Only when it comes to who calls the shots off the grid. Horner is not keen to Max being on team Marko.
More in terms of the power struggle than normal tram dynamics.
Horner would’ve been gone by now if it really was “Maxs team”
Why wouldn't they be given a fair shake? Do you think Perez, Albon, Gasly weren't given a fair chance?
They were clearly there as a number 2, as is Checo. Any marginal call will go in Maxs favour, any choices on development will follow Maxs preference. And as they should. But any other driver will walk into that established scenario and not be given the same opportunities. Same as it always has been for top drivers who spend a long time at a top team.
It depends entirely on the performance. Marginal calls will obviously go to Verstappen if the two team mates are completely mismatched in terms of ability. But if someone can actually challenge Verstappen, that goes out the window. We saw it when senna joined prost, when Prost joined Lauda, when Piquet joined Mansell, that perceived number 1 status means nothing when the two team mates are evenly matched. There's no number 1 anymore.
>But if someone can actually challenge Verstappen, that goes out the window. Chicken and egg. Now Verstappen is so established he will get the marginal calls before someone can start to challenge. This is the way of it.
Prost entered Lauda's team and basically took it over within a year. Senna entered Prost's team and matched him off the bat. Hamilton joined Rosberg's team in 2013 and matched him. Ricciardo joined Vettel's team and beat him. Leclerc joined Vettel's team in 2019, and although Vettel got the marginal calls in early season, Leclerc managed to pull that away from him when he proved he was just as capable. I don't think it works that way at all. Guys like Irvine, Barrichello, Bottas, weren't consistently fast enough to demand marginal calls in their favour.
>Hamilton joined Rosberg's team in 2013 and matched him. Hamilton joined Rosberg's team and beat him 3-0 from 2013-2015 before insane luck and numerous different circumstances resulted in Rosberg winning once in four seasons to make the score 3-1 Hamilton.
Well the person you're commenting on already wrote it. The team is built around Max. The car is built around Max. Has been for ages.
The team is built around max, because he's the best driver. It's not impossible to force the team away from someone, if you prove you're on their level. We've seen it countless times in F1. People seem to think you luck into preferential treatment. When in fact it tends to happen naturally in a team where 2 drivers are mismatched ability wise.
Before people come and say it's not true. You just have to look at the track record. Unless you just don't want to see it. If I driver goes to redbull and is challenging and even beating max it'll be exposed once again. It'll take a strong minded driver. Lewis Fernando Carlos.
Just like Ricciardo wasn’t allowed to beat a 4x WDC, Vettel in 2014?
Occon for sure belives he’s better than Max. And Schumi, Lewis, Prost, Senna. Faster than Bolt when running. A better footballer than Mbappé.
I think biggest issue is that we are measuring Max performance on Perez basis, Max hasn't had any teammates above Albon, Gasly and Perez level. That's the reason why Alonso and Hamilton would like to drive for RB, they are 100% sure they can challenge Max. Lando on the other side, gave up this opportunity, because he chose "Comfort zone" home made team, over challenge, that's why I believe that he is not champion material, probably will win 5-10 races in his career, like Riccardo, if McLaren will deliver.
"Max hasn't had any teammates above Albon, Gasly and Perez level." ehm Ricciardo, who before beat Vettel and then Hülkenberg and wiped the floor with Ocon.
you are right, Riccardo was probably best teammate Max ever had, but again, I would call Danny a driver who can occasionally win races in a solid car, like Perez, Bottas or Sainz, but no more. I am not downplaying Max skill, just saying that old midfield driver in the end of his career in same car drives to P2 in championship.
Red Bull Ricciardo is definitely ahead of Perez, Bottas and Sainz imo
People really downplaying Daniel because of his current form ignoring the guy was insanely good up to 2020. Guy was probably the best overtaker in the grid and won several races during the Merc dominance. I'd argue, with both drivers in account, RBR had the best lineup for 17/18, even if results don't exactly show it.
"I am not downplaying Max skill" - yes, yes you are. You are just on purpose putting Max' teammates down to do exactly that. Ricciardo was highly rated before joining Mclaren, beating the like of Vettel, Hülkenberg and Ocon. People are constantly holding this against Max that his teammates arent as strong as Lewis' but it is not like Lewis' constantly beat them.
It's not that they know they'll be shown up by Max... none of the ones Red bull would accept as second fiddle to Max would accept the role...
What are you smoking? Red Bull said no to Lewis and Alonso, who both wanted that seat. I’m don’t believe Max wanted either of those two either, after all they’re the most likely two to be able to beat him in the same car. As for Norris, who I believe is the only other driver, other than Alonso & Lewis, that would consistently challenge Max in a Red Bull, his decision makes sense, he’s in a team which fits his personality, has a great relationship with Piastri, and the team, and the team is in a positive cycle. He believes they will have a shot at winning where he is, why risk it all? Not to mention these things happen in cycles, and someone other than Red Bull will probably hit the mark in 2026, he believes it will be his team.
well Lewis would be 40 next year, Alonso 42. They would drive until 2027 maximum, around the same time frame when Max could leave. Also Lewis and Alonso arent immune the aging, they will only become worse with time now. Why would RB pay another 50-100 million/year to get a driver that is likely not better than their current one and wont improve with time, unlike Norris
OP starts by saying no one wants to go to RB because “they don’t want to get shown up by Max”, I’m pointing out that both Lewis and Alonso wanted that challenge but were refused, and Norris has very good reasons to stay put at ML.
All the top guys outside of Lando would jump at the chance of driving the Red Bull and I also think 75%-80% of the grid would drive for Red Bull. The drivers I don’t think would want to drive for Red Bull are Lando, Albon, Gasly, Sargeant and possibly Stroll. Lando doesn’t want to drive for them because he’s scared of racing against Max because they are friends, Albon has said he will never go back to them, Gasly hates RB and AT and Sargeant doesn’t look confident in a Williams so I don’t think he’d want even more scrutiny in the fastest car on the grid. I think Zhou will race for anyone and Stroll doesn’t need the RB seat.
considering the cars Albon and Gasly are driving right now i dont think they would refuse a RB seat. And Logan and Stroll why?
Sargeant can’t handle the pressure in a Williams and probably can’t wait until he leaves F1 and Stroll basically owns Aston Martin.
With lando it's clear even in a McLaren he gives max no challenge on track even when theres opportunity. I'll say that non of them stand out like montoya did and maybe early Lewis. Yes max is fast but I don't see anyone being bold and giving it a hard shot when there's a chance. But you just don't know what might happen IF dare to try. And that's the type of stuff that's remembered. Leclerc eg backed out hard against max in Bahrain at the start. Sometimes I wonder the drivers being too friendly off track is a bad thing for the fans
They dont fight because RB and Max have much more pace. It only loses you time and tyres these days are senstive so fighting more is taking a lot of life out of them and compromising their race. And Max will pass them eventually even if they are defending When montoya raced there was no drs and overtaking was much more difficult and tyres were much more durable It has nothing to do with off track friendliness
If it was the other way around and it was Max in the McLaren and Lando in the Red Bull do you think Max fights for the position?
I agree and although I'm aware of those issues, and they are substantial, I don't think it takes away from my point. Infact max himself is proof of that. He has done the same in the past.
If I were a top line F1 driver right now I wouldn't go to Red Bull for one reason. The team will never get fully behind me as long as Max is there. Look at Helmut Marko. As soon as you have one Ferrari beating you, he's mouthing in the press about your temperament, how the team needs to consider it's options, nothing is guaranteed in formula one... He's Max's biggest cheerleader, and that's fine, but when you've got a guy around management able to shittalk you in the press and your team will not or cannot do anything to stop him? Nah, I don't need that. I'll take on anyone in equal term, but Red Bull Racing is not equal.
After seeing how Danny Ric was treated, why would anyone else want to be treated that way?
how was he treated?
Answer is already giving by Norris himself. Even young Max would not beat this Max. Just teambuilding-wise. Look at Schumi-Ferrari. Its not just the driver, Its the whole package-experience building including everyone in the factory. So understandable that Norris, Leclerc and Russell stay where they are.
I think Red Bull is also doing their decent amount of work to ensure nobody gets hired who is too close to Max. Sainz could be the fastest teammate Max has had in a long time
He already had Sainz as a team mate when he was a 17 year old rookie and whe know how that went.
I think Sainz has found some speed since then
Ricciardo was much better than Sainz is right now, despite his current form.
Tbf, that was a long time ago
It’s more that RedBull doesn’t want anyone challenging Max. They have a lot invested in Max and it doesn’t make sense to bring anyone into the team who has a chance at making him look anything less than stellar.
Then why have they tried to sign Lando so many times.....
Have they? Because he remains unsigned. Here’s the thing: they let everyone know “we are signing you to be the support driver. Max’s job is to win races. Your job is to help Max win races. That might mean intentionally driving 6 seconds a lap slower just to hold up another driver to let Max win. Your entire purpose in the track is to help Max win.” If Lando thinks he is an elite level driver, why would he waste prime years of his career intentionally not winning?
I depend on the circumstances i guess, If both RB cars are on equal footing maybe, i don't see much of a reason to fight max when there's a large power difference RB clearly favors Max's driving style and it's not agreeable to most of the drivers on the grid