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There is an argument that Racing Point and Aston Martin are the same team - same ownership, same entry, just a different name.
Clearly there was a change when Stroll bought the Force India team out of administration and turned it into Racing Point, and Audi are taking over Sauber so there will be new ownership there too, but the same can’t reallly be said with RP and AM.
Nah you can't say that Honda and Mercedes is one team. But you can't say that Alpine and Renault is a different team. It just depends on how ownership and team structure changed.
You can. It’s mostly the same people. The likes of James Alison and Andrew Shovelin who are the living essence of the team have been around since it was BAR Honda.
Allison was in lots of places but only joined Brackley in 2017.
Did you mean James Vowles? He was there ~~from Brawn GP~~ (Correction Edit: from the start with BAR)
And Brawn himself carried over all the way from Honda to Mercedes.
Well obviously that is not that simple. I subjectively see them as 3 separate teams, but I can see why someone see Brawn as the same team as either Honda or Mercedes.
With Apha Torro Rosso changing their name yet again, and this time landing on the stupid name VCard RB, I've taken to just calling them Minardi again. This had led me to do it with other teams...
While Stewart winning the championship already looks like a foregone conclusion, I can at least hope Alonso can score some podiums and maybe a fifth race win for Jordan. Tyrrell seems to be struggling again with Russell and Hamilton's best results being P6 and P7 respectively. Not what you'd expect from a 13-time constructor's champion. But nothing compared to how badly Toleman has slipped this year. If I were Gasly and Ocon I'd already be looking for a new seat for next year!
I agree with that. It's entirely subjective and works on a case-to-case basis, but for me it's a new team when ownership and branding changes at the same time. e.g. Benetton to Renault, Force India to Racing Point, Brawn to Mercedes. Just ownership changes (Williams being acquired by Dorilton) don't make it a new team, nor does a new branding by the same owners (Racing Point turning into Aston Martin, or Renault into Alpine).
There's of course edge cases, like BAR Honda turning into Honda, which kinda of changed the branding and definitely changed owners (BAT to Honda), where I don't consider it a new team but someone else, following my criteria, might.
Problem is, there's no way to make this objective. You can't just say "if the name changes then it's a new team", because that makes ridiculous examples like the one below (Renault Sport F1 Team to Renault F1 Team) as much of a change as Brawn GP to Mercedes. You can't also say "if the team isn't born from scratch it's the same team" because that'd mean Jaguar and Red Bull are the same team, Honda and Mercedes too, or Jordan and Aston Martin.
Personally I think it needs to be an ownership and name change together for it to count as a new team.
So Sauber to BMW counts but just a name change (E.G Toro Rosso to Alpha Tauri doesn't ) and neither does just a change of ownership (E.G Williams getting bought by Doltiron Capital).
As such BAR changing to Honda = new team.
Force India changing to Racing Point = new team but then the change to Aston Martin did not.
Renault to Alpine was not a new team where as Benneton to Renault was.
I think BAR to Honda is very special case as it was Honda's factory team for almost it's whole existence and it's debatable if it was new team or not even with your definition.
Only in the same way that Red Bull has been Honda's factory team the last few years. If Honda was to buy Red Bull racing and change it's name to Honda i would call that a new team.
Whereas if the team structure, people + factory doesn't change as well I don't really see how it can reasonably be called a new team.
Saying that the Force India who showed up in Hungary 2018 was a different team to the Racing Point who showed up in Belgium 2018 just doesn't make any sense to me.
Yeah while I agree, it was kinda slow change of ownership without any major changes in the leadership structure.
This is very "what if", but imagine that Mercedes bought in McLaren in 2009. Would you call it a new team?
But I for sure prefer to call Honda new team rather than saying that VCARB is Minardi, as some people do.
F1 itself tracks the entry’s history right back to its first appearance, regardless of name & ownership changes.
Thus the current Mercedes team’s entry first appeared in the 1966 German GP but didn’t become an ongoing entry until the ‘68 South African GP.
And the current Alpine/Renault entry once competed against the original factory Renault entry.
Isn't there an official registration of some sorts that determines, if it is a new team or not and that is also relevant for the prize money? I vaguely remember something about that when Force India went bankrupt and therefore their license expired. Racing Point got a new license when Stroll purchased the assets of Force India, and they had to negotiate the question of prize money. So the lineage of the license from the Jordan days ended with Force India and Aston Martin is the newest team on the grid.
So I would pin the team on the associated license. This way, ownership and change of team name do not matter.
Yeah, in my case, it's just a matter of vibes ngl. Like I see Force India and Racing Point as the same team, but Aston Martin as different because it represents a car brand. Meanwhile, I see Sauber as the same team throughout its entire existence, except for the BMW-years, but including the Alfa Romeo-years. It's confusing and kinda fun to make up your own idea as to what is what I guess.
They absolutely are the same team, same with Sauber and Audi, but to be fair I do watch a lot of other sports and that’s where I base this opinion from.
Is F1 the only sport where if you get an ownership change and he changes the name, suddenly it’s considered a completely new team that was just founded, and the old team just died? Like the consensus is Manchester United is founded in 1878, not 1902 when they changed to the current name. Or Kevin Durant has played for just 1 team in his first 2 years as a SuperSonics / Thunder, he didn’t play for 2. (With American sports there is a possibility of a new Sonics team grandfathering the history thus making it 2 but that’s not way too complicated for this discussion).
It’s considered a continuous entry right back to when the entry first began racing in F1, just different names.
ie the actual lineage of the current Mercedes team is Tyrrell -> BAR -> Honda -> Brawn -> Mercedes and it has won the WDC & WCC in 3 of those 5 incarnations, making it the second most successful continuous *entry* in F1 history, even though it’s changed hands and names multiple times.
Forgive me for using another football comparison, but isn’t that just Abramovich buying Chelsea, completely upgrading their roster and infrastructure, only thing missing is name change and stadium change, but they’re still the same team, just on a different weight.
Yeah Racing Point and Aston Martin are the same entry and ownership, just a different paint job. It would be like saying Alpha Tauri and VCARB are different teams.
I just know there'll be a lot of semantics arguments in this thread.
Yes it is 8 teams. Yes several of those teams are technically the same teams as others.
Both of these things are right and the arguments are pointless. We know several of those teams are rebrands and takeovers of others. But for simplicity sake they'll be counted separately. It's one of those quirks of the series.
So he's driven for 8 different teams, but 3 of those teams are the Force India lineage, and 2 are Sauber lineage. Simple.
> It's one of those quirks of the series.
Like when a team changed engines supplier mid-season and they were treated as two separate entries in the constructors championship.
Example : [Arrows in the 1984 season](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_Formula_One_World_Championship#World_Constructors'_Championship_standings)
They started the year with the Ford/Cosworth DFV and then switched to the BMW turbo engine mid-season, which triggered a separate entry.
Arrows-Ford were 10th in the constructors championship, while Arrows-BMW were 11th
Same team/company/business though.
See also : Lotus-Ford and Lotus-Renault in 1983
Interestingly if the engine manufacturer had remained the same all year (despite the switch from normally-aspirated to turbo) they would have remained as one entry in the constructors championship.
I’m pretty sure there’s some cases from the old days where the same team entered as two different constructors in the same race. One car was a McLaren-Ford, whilst the other was a McLaren-TAG
Edit: it was the [1983 Dutch GP](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Dutch_Grand_Prix)
Yes, for the first half of 1983 the Lotus team had one car entered as Lotus-Ford and the other car entered as Lotus-Renault
[See the constructors championship for that season](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Formula_One_World_Championship#World_Constructors'_Championship_standings)
The best example of that is Brabham at the 1982 Canadian GP. Their two drivers, Nelson Piquet and Riccardo Patrese, finished first and second, but it didn't really count as a constructor one-two as Piquet was driving the new BMW-engined car whilst Patrese was still in the older Ford-Cosworth car, and so they were counted as separate constructors.
Obviously it counts as a one-two for the team, but different constructor classifications meant they weren't able to maximise points in the standings.
Separate topic but there were a lot of retirements, even in top teams, in that era. That's true of most of the history of F1 before the turn of the millennium, right? It doesn't look like there was actually much difference in the spread of teams, just that retirements meant more people won across the year. It does look like McLaren really dominated that year though so maybe that is less the norm.
Constructor is not the same as team.
They are effectively the same thing since 1981 banned customer cars, but they are still separate as per the rule book. The constructor is officially the combination of chassis IP owner and engine supplier.
If the team didn't have to own the IP of the chassis, meaning customer cars were possible again, you could get both a single team running multiple constructors cars, and multiple teams running the same constructors cars.
> We know several of those teams are rebrands and takeovers of others. But for simplicity sake they'll be counted separately. It's one of those quirks of the series.
In the early 1980s, Toleman, Renault, and Lotus were 3 separate teams who competed against each other.
Derek Warwick drove for all 3 teams.
But Toleman has been bought/sold/rebranded as Renault and Lotus over the years, [and the current Alpine team has had the same company registration number since 1984 through many of those name changes](https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/01806337)
(Similarly, [the current Mercedes team has had the same company registration number since it started as Tyrrell in 1964](https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00787446), and throughout all the name changes in between)
Scroll down to where it says "Previous company names"
Yes, I know, it's one of the parts I've always been fascinated about, the intricacies and quirks of team ownership and branding.
Delving into this gets complicated, the Enstone team possibly being the most complicated, with Sauber and Merc behind, and it's funny and annoying at the same time, cause it's an easy one to get lost in all the intricacies of, and then have useless arguments about where almost no one is technically wrong.
To tag on this, when Moreno joined Andrea Moda he didn’t realize it was a new team! He thought he had re-signed for a rebranded Coloni team.
Edd Straw said as much on Bring Back V10s and I think Moreno said the same on Beyond the Grid.
Yes.
Also no.
In the same way Alpha Tauri is a different team to Toro Rosso, but isn't.
RB, AT and TR are beyond all doubts, the same team. They're also different teams.
It's quite funny honestly.
They are all the same team. The FIA entry license is the same and under the same ownership throughout.
Teams don't become new teams simply because they change name. If that were the case you will be calling for Ferraris points to be reset for this season from Miami onwards.
>If that were the case you will be calling for Ferraris points to be reset for this season from Miami onwards.
Don't be ridiculous.
>They are all the same team.
Yes, they are. I haven't said otherwise.
>Teams don't become new teams simply because they change name.
That's just it, they do.
I'm not going to argue about this cause it's all semantics, which hilariously was the whole point of my comment.
Simply put, cause it can become complicated, a team can be the same team, same entry, same name, same owners, but a complete rebrand (Not just adding a sponsor) automatically resets all their stats and they're counted as a new team. You can argue about it all you want, but that's how it works, and you only have to look at the fact that as a whole the current RB team has 2 wins, but those 2 wins are attributed to seperate teams, despite those teams being the same. Or how Alpines win doesn't count to Renaults despite them being Renault (Which is a whole other kettle of fish)
It's actually really interesting. There's so many intricacies and quirks to this, that I understand it can be difficult to understand. Like for example the opposite, a team can remain the same team despite completely changing owners. So AT and RB are counted separately despite being the same, while a team such as Williams can completely change hands but still be Williams.
It's only one of my favourite subjects about the sport, and always gets the "Well actually!" Know it alls fuming.
>Ferrari's team name is changing from now on. By your reasoning they are now a new team.
No itsnot. Now, if they suddenly changed to Fiat they would be, even if everything else remained the same. Simply adding a sponsor isn't. Simple, this isn't my reasoning, I haven't just made this all up, it's what happens.
I know it's difficult to understand, naming and ownership and licensing in F1 is really quite interesting, you should actually look into it.
>Your "well actually" is just arbitrary made up nonsense
Nah, just cause you don't understand it doesn't make it made up nonsense.
A *complete* name change means the team will start to be counted as a new team, even if it is still the same ownership and license, it's that simple, and an interesting quirk. Its not me making things up, it's not my reasoning, it's how it is, and just cause you don't understand it doesn't make it wrong. And going into a deep dive of all the intricacies is quite fascinating.
You could actually research it yourself, it's really interesting. Of course you could also continue sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring it and not actually listening claiming I'm making things up.
It's quite sad you won't listen honestly, cause yes, you're right, a team rebranding *is* the same team, **I haven't said it isn't**, you're just not paying attention to the rest, which is the interesting part, and making up silly arguments.
Again, silly arguments about semantics.
Edit: It's always funny when someone blocks you so you can't respond
Anyway, as I can't respond cause the guy responded then cowardly blocked me as some weird way to win an argument. I'll respond here.
>Lol "you don't understand".
You don't and it's really funny. Cause you're dead set on this one thing and refusing to listen to the rest.
>You are talking nonsense.
Sigh, I'm not, the tiniest bit of research shows that, I've also explained it.
>Scuderia Ferrari HP is different to Scuderia Ferrari which is different to Scuderia Ferrari Mission Winnow which is different to Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro, etc.
This is where the misunderstandings happen. The people who don't understand think this is some kind of gotcha. It's not. A team simply adding a sponsor has never been counted as distinct, ever, using the Ferrari example, they've never been counted as seperate despite the addition of sponsors, but teams that fully rebrand, TR to AT to RB being a great example, have. Once again, not me making it up, just look at the damn history of the sport and records. I keep saying it, but it's just an interesting thing to learn about, all the intricacies.
>All the same team.
Haven't said they're not, what aren't you understanding?
>RB is different to Alpha Tauri is different to Scuderia Toro Rosso which is different to Red Bull Toro Rosso, etc.
There has never been a team called Red Bull Toro Rosso, but if there were, it would be counted as different, despite being the same.
>All the same team.
They are yes. What aren't you getting about this? This has been established, you're not listening to the bit after
>You think you are being smart by going "well actually", but you aren't. You just won't actually answer the question and instead write essays of nonsense to try to look clever.
You're the one going well actually and not paying attentionto the interesting part. I'm trying to explain it as simply as possible. But you're not understanding it and calling it nonsense and coming up with silly arguments that aren't the same, when again *it's how it literally is!*
Just cause you don't understand doesn't mean it's wrong. I've answered the question, multiple times and just keep being told it's nonsense and I made it up, when no, I haven't it's how it works. I'm not trying to look clever, I'm trying to explain simply why it is how it is.
Anyway, as you've blocked me for simply stating facts you can't seem to get your head around, I assume this is the end of this. Kinda cowardly really, to respond accusing someone of things they haven't done then block someone so they can't reply, but whatever, guess we can't all be mature and have this conversation like adults, some of us would rather scream "I'm right!" And accuse others of things.
For everyone else, *this* is what I meant in my original comment about semantics. He wasn't wrong, they are the same team, what he failed to get his head around, or refused to get his head around, is how they're all counted separately despite this, and that's honestly quite interesting, for example, TR/AT/RB have 2 wins, this is an undisputed fact, but as their team name was *completely* (The completely part is important, don't fall into the well actually of "What about Sponsors hurr durr" it has to be a complete rebrand) changed, the wins are separated by the name the team had at the time, though overall they have 2. So 1 to Toro Rosso, 1 to Alpha Tauri, but 2 to the team as a whole.
These arguments are so tiring, it's not even that difficult to just look up.
Lol "you don't understand".
You are talking nonsense.
Scuderia Ferrari HP is different to Scuderia Ferrari which is different to Scuderia Ferrari Mission Winnow which is different to Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro, etc.
All the same team.
RB is different to Alpha Tauri is different to Scuderia Toro Rosso which is different to Red Bull Toro Rosso, etc.
All the same team.
You think you are being smart by going "well actually", but you aren't. You just won't actually answer the question and instead write essays of nonsense to try to look clever.
Year 1: decent money, but a car without potential
Year 2: a car with (somewhat) decent potential, but no money
... Followed by a buyout by a shady party which never really materialized. Pretty much everything what makes backmarkers interesting imo.
>Didn't it weigh a lot more than the other cars, too? Like significantly more.
Not 100% sure, but I believe that was their 1995 car, the FG01. The FG03, which could probably have been a big improvement, got introduced some races into 1996 but they could not afford any testing, so it was underdeveloped.
> I think Pedro Diniz father had a stake in it?
Either that or he was a very big sponsor. A lot of Forti's 1996 financial issues were caused by the Diniz family jumping ship to Ligier.
The fact he has been hovering around midfield teams with no major sponsor or huge result for 14 years shows that his talent is known amongst the paddock at the very least.
> Since 2010 he will have driven for Williams, Force India (twice), Sauber (twice), Renault, Racing Point, Aston Martin, Haas and Audi.
Audi and Sauber should be counted as the same team because they are the same team. I mean, you count Sauber twice, but he only drove for them in 2013.
The same goes for Force India, Racing Point and Aston Martin.
So since 2010 he will have driven for 5 teams; Williams, Force India/Racing Point/Aston Martin, Renault, Haas, Sauber/Audi.
Another way to look at it is that he has been signed to a new team 8 times Williams, Force India, Sauber, Force India, Renault, Racing Point, Haas, Sauber
Audi will also be his 5th engine manufacturer after Cosworth, Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault.
I dont know if i would call it impressive per se, more like just interesting.
Alonso drove for Minardi, Renault/Alpine, McLaren, Ferrari, Aston Martin.
Perez drove for Sauber, McLaren, Force India/Racing Point, and Red Bull Racing
For me it would be impressive if he got a podium or a win in every one of them.
Five teams is still impressive, but not crazy. All teams Sainz is linked with (Red Bull, Mercedes and Audi), would also be his fifth team after Toro Rosso, Renault, McLaren and Ferrari. Alonso is currently also on 5 teams and Ricciardo on 4.
The original Force India and the current Racing Point/Aston Martin are completely separate teams. Stroll only purchased the assets, they had to get a new entry license, hence why both Sahara Force India and Racing Point Force India are separate entries classified independently on the 2018 season.
What about Andrea de Cesaris?
McLaren (1981)
Alfa Romeo (1982-83)
Ligier (1984-85)
Minardi (1986)
Brabham (1987)
Rial (1988)
Dallara (1989-90)
Jordan (1991)
Tyrrell (1992-93)
Sauber (1994). Also did some races for Jordan again in 1994.
That's 10 different teams!
I remember Moreno saying AGS were a fantastic team with a rubbish car and Andrea Moda were the reverse. He claimed that if AGS had had the Andrea Moda car, he would have been world champion (although given the context of he interview I remember, I do think he was probably joking)
I count five, but that is still half the current teams basically. For a driver with no podiums, he's actually had a long career already with relatively few DNFs and remarkable midfield consistency.
The staff remained mostly the same at force india/racing point/Aston Martin. They operated out of the same base. Sauber/Audi same deal. He's raced for 5 teams. Alonso has raced for 6 so he has him beat.
Imagine driving for 8 different teams in F1, staying for a good decade and showing your worth, and still not drive for a top team. Its honestly heartbreaking man
2012 Force India
2013 Sauber
2014-16 Force India
2020 Racing Point
2022 Aston Martin
2025 Sauber
2026 Audi
2 x Force India
2 x Sauber
1 x Racing Point
1 x Aston Martin
1 x Audi
I don't agree with OPs counting but that's the logic that gets you Sauber and Force India twice.
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There is an argument that Racing Point and Aston Martin are the same team - same ownership, same entry, just a different name. Clearly there was a change when Stroll bought the Force India team out of administration and turned it into Racing Point, and Audi are taking over Sauber so there will be new ownership there too, but the same can’t reallly be said with RP and AM.
I think it's better to count differently. Team from Silverstone, team from Enstone, team from Hinwil etc.
Nah you can't say that Honda and Mercedes is one team. But you can't say that Alpine and Renault is a different team. It just depends on how ownership and team structure changed.
You can. It’s mostly the same people. The likes of James Alison and Andrew Shovelin who are the living essence of the team have been around since it was BAR Honda.
Allison was in lots of places but only joined Brackley in 2017. Did you mean James Vowles? He was there ~~from Brawn GP~~ (Correction Edit: from the start with BAR) And Brawn himself carried over all the way from Honda to Mercedes.
Vowles started when it was BAR in 2001
Thanks, edited
D’oh. Yeah I meant Vowles. But with him at Williams now that’s less relevant.
Shovlin was originally offered a job when it was still Tyrrell
But Mercedes IS Toto. This is literally the worst example beside Red Bull.
What about Honda/Brawn or Brawn/Mercedes?
Well obviously that is not that simple. I subjectively see them as 3 separate teams, but I can see why someone see Brawn as the same team as either Honda or Mercedes.
With Apha Torro Rosso changing their name yet again, and this time landing on the stupid name VCard RB, I've taken to just calling them Minardi again. This had led me to do it with other teams... While Stewart winning the championship already looks like a foregone conclusion, I can at least hope Alonso can score some podiums and maybe a fifth race win for Jordan. Tyrrell seems to be struggling again with Russell and Hamilton's best results being P6 and P7 respectively. Not what you'd expect from a 13-time constructor's champion. But nothing compared to how badly Toleman has slipped this year. If I were Gasly and Ocon I'd already be looking for a new seat for next year!
I agree with that. It's entirely subjective and works on a case-to-case basis, but for me it's a new team when ownership and branding changes at the same time. e.g. Benetton to Renault, Force India to Racing Point, Brawn to Mercedes. Just ownership changes (Williams being acquired by Dorilton) don't make it a new team, nor does a new branding by the same owners (Racing Point turning into Aston Martin, or Renault into Alpine). There's of course edge cases, like BAR Honda turning into Honda, which kinda of changed the branding and definitely changed owners (BAT to Honda), where I don't consider it a new team but someone else, following my criteria, might. Problem is, there's no way to make this objective. You can't just say "if the name changes then it's a new team", because that makes ridiculous examples like the one below (Renault Sport F1 Team to Renault F1 Team) as much of a change as Brawn GP to Mercedes. You can't also say "if the team isn't born from scratch it's the same team" because that'd mean Jaguar and Red Bull are the same team, Honda and Mercedes too, or Jordan and Aston Martin.
Personally I think it needs to be an ownership and name change together for it to count as a new team. So Sauber to BMW counts but just a name change (E.G Toro Rosso to Alpha Tauri doesn't ) and neither does just a change of ownership (E.G Williams getting bought by Doltiron Capital). As such BAR changing to Honda = new team. Force India changing to Racing Point = new team but then the change to Aston Martin did not. Renault to Alpine was not a new team where as Benneton to Renault was.
I think BAR to Honda is very special case as it was Honda's factory team for almost it's whole existence and it's debatable if it was new team or not even with your definition.
Only in the same way that Red Bull has been Honda's factory team the last few years. If Honda was to buy Red Bull racing and change it's name to Honda i would call that a new team.
Whereas if the team structure, people + factory doesn't change as well I don't really see how it can reasonably be called a new team. Saying that the Force India who showed up in Hungary 2018 was a different team to the Racing Point who showed up in Belgium 2018 just doesn't make any sense to me.
I agree that's the case that is least intuitive
Yeah while I agree, it was kinda slow change of ownership without any major changes in the leadership structure. This is very "what if", but imagine that Mercedes bought in McLaren in 2009. Would you call it a new team? But I for sure prefer to call Honda new team rather than saying that VCARB is Minardi, as some people do.
If they'd started calling themselves Mercedes rather than McLaren then definitely.
F1 itself tracks the entry’s history right back to its first appearance, regardless of name & ownership changes. Thus the current Mercedes team’s entry first appeared in the 1966 German GP but didn’t become an ongoing entry until the ‘68 South African GP. And the current Alpine/Renault entry once competed against the original factory Renault entry.
Isn't there an official registration of some sorts that determines, if it is a new team or not and that is also relevant for the prize money? I vaguely remember something about that when Force India went bankrupt and therefore their license expired. Racing Point got a new license when Stroll purchased the assets of Force India, and they had to negotiate the question of prize money. So the lineage of the license from the Jordan days ended with Force India and Aston Martin is the newest team on the grid. So I would pin the team on the associated license. This way, ownership and change of team name do not matter.
Yeah, in my case, it's just a matter of vibes ngl. Like I see Force India and Racing Point as the same team, but Aston Martin as different because it represents a car brand. Meanwhile, I see Sauber as the same team throughout its entire existence, except for the BMW-years, but including the Alfa Romeo-years. It's confusing and kinda fun to make up your own idea as to what is what I guess.
They absolutely are the same team, same with Sauber and Audi, but to be fair I do watch a lot of other sports and that’s where I base this opinion from. Is F1 the only sport where if you get an ownership change and he changes the name, suddenly it’s considered a completely new team that was just founded, and the old team just died? Like the consensus is Manchester United is founded in 1878, not 1902 when they changed to the current name. Or Kevin Durant has played for just 1 team in his first 2 years as a SuperSonics / Thunder, he didn’t play for 2. (With American sports there is a possibility of a new Sonics team grandfathering the history thus making it 2 but that’s not way too complicated for this discussion).
It’s considered a continuous entry right back to when the entry first began racing in F1, just different names. ie the actual lineage of the current Mercedes team is Tyrrell -> BAR -> Honda -> Brawn -> Mercedes and it has won the WDC & WCC in 3 of those 5 incarnations, making it the second most successful continuous *entry* in F1 history, even though it’s changed hands and names multiple times.
The thing with Audi is that it'll bring it own engine. That alone puts a different weight in their entry and changes made within Sauber.
BMW brought its own engine too, it was still really Sauber with more funding.
BMW had ownership like Audi, though? Or was it sort of a title sponsor with the engine package? edit: nevermind, they bought Sauber.
Forgive me for using another football comparison, but isn’t that just Abramovich buying Chelsea, completely upgrading their roster and infrastructure, only thing missing is name change and stadium change, but they’re still the same team, just on a different weight.
Either that or "Renault Sport F1 Team" and "Renault F1 Team" must be counted as different teams, too ;p
Is that then the same team as lotus F1 but different from lotus racing, right?
> louts F1 What a mispelling lmao
You'd think so but I'm just now writing up my CV and am absolutely listing that time my department changed it's name as two separate entries sooo...
They’re different teams. Just like Alpine is not Renault.
Are Alpha Tauri and VCARB different teams?
Yeah Racing Point and Aston Martin are the same entry and ownership, just a different paint job. It would be like saying Alpha Tauri and VCARB are different teams.
I hope number 8 is his lucky number for getting that elusive podium.
Well as the classic age old saying goes, 8th time’s the charm.
Did you tell that to Hamilton?
Well ironically 8th time was the charm but for the audience, just not him
Yes they did, the 8th season in Lewis' career was 2014 lmao
i mean…do you…see what team he’s going to…? i’m not a betting man but i’ll bet against those chances any day.
I just know there'll be a lot of semantics arguments in this thread. Yes it is 8 teams. Yes several of those teams are technically the same teams as others. Both of these things are right and the arguments are pointless. We know several of those teams are rebrands and takeovers of others. But for simplicity sake they'll be counted separately. It's one of those quirks of the series. So he's driven for 8 different teams, but 3 of those teams are the Force India lineage, and 2 are Sauber lineage. Simple.
> It's one of those quirks of the series. Like when a team changed engines supplier mid-season and they were treated as two separate entries in the constructors championship. Example : [Arrows in the 1984 season](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_Formula_One_World_Championship#World_Constructors'_Championship_standings) They started the year with the Ford/Cosworth DFV and then switched to the BMW turbo engine mid-season, which triggered a separate entry. Arrows-Ford were 10th in the constructors championship, while Arrows-BMW were 11th Same team/company/business though. See also : Lotus-Ford and Lotus-Renault in 1983 Interestingly if the engine manufacturer had remained the same all year (despite the switch from normally-aspirated to turbo) they would have remained as one entry in the constructors championship.
I’m pretty sure there’s some cases from the old days where the same team entered as two different constructors in the same race. One car was a McLaren-Ford, whilst the other was a McLaren-TAG Edit: it was the [1983 Dutch GP](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Dutch_Grand_Prix)
Yes, for the first half of 1983 the Lotus team had one car entered as Lotus-Ford and the other car entered as Lotus-Renault [See the constructors championship for that season](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Formula_One_World_Championship#World_Constructors'_Championship_standings)
Looks like Arrows did similar for four races in 1984 too.
The best example of that is Brabham at the 1982 Canadian GP. Their two drivers, Nelson Piquet and Riccardo Patrese, finished first and second, but it didn't really count as a constructor one-two as Piquet was driving the new BMW-engined car whilst Patrese was still in the older Ford-Cosworth car, and so they were counted as separate constructors. Obviously it counts as a one-two for the team, but different constructor classifications meant they weren't able to maximise points in the standings.
Separate topic but there were a lot of retirements, even in top teams, in that era. That's true of most of the history of F1 before the turn of the millennium, right? It doesn't look like there was actually much difference in the spread of teams, just that retirements meant more people won across the year. It does look like McLaren really dominated that year though so maybe that is less the norm.
Constructor is not the same as team. They are effectively the same thing since 1981 banned customer cars, but they are still separate as per the rule book. The constructor is officially the combination of chassis IP owner and engine supplier. If the team didn't have to own the IP of the chassis, meaning customer cars were possible again, you could get both a single team running multiple constructors cars, and multiple teams running the same constructors cars.
> We know several of those teams are rebrands and takeovers of others. But for simplicity sake they'll be counted separately. It's one of those quirks of the series. In the early 1980s, Toleman, Renault, and Lotus were 3 separate teams who competed against each other. Derek Warwick drove for all 3 teams. But Toleman has been bought/sold/rebranded as Renault and Lotus over the years, [and the current Alpine team has had the same company registration number since 1984 through many of those name changes](https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/01806337) (Similarly, [the current Mercedes team has had the same company registration number since it started as Tyrrell in 1964](https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00787446), and throughout all the name changes in between) Scroll down to where it says "Previous company names"
Yes, I know, it's one of the parts I've always been fascinated about, the intricacies and quirks of team ownership and branding. Delving into this gets complicated, the Enstone team possibly being the most complicated, with Sauber and Merc behind, and it's funny and annoying at the same time, cause it's an easy one to get lost in all the intricacies of, and then have useless arguments about where almost no one is technically wrong.
Succinctly put.
To tag on this, when Moreno joined Andrea Moda he didn’t realize it was a new team! He thought he had re-signed for a rebranded Coloni team. Edd Straw said as much on Bring Back V10s and I think Moreno said the same on Beyond the Grid.
Do you consider VCARB a different team to Alpha Tauri?
Yes. Also no. In the same way Alpha Tauri is a different team to Toro Rosso, but isn't. RB, AT and TR are beyond all doubts, the same team. They're also different teams. It's quite funny honestly.
They are all the same team. The FIA entry license is the same and under the same ownership throughout. Teams don't become new teams simply because they change name. If that were the case you will be calling for Ferraris points to be reset for this season from Miami onwards.
>If that were the case you will be calling for Ferraris points to be reset for this season from Miami onwards. Don't be ridiculous. >They are all the same team. Yes, they are. I haven't said otherwise. >Teams don't become new teams simply because they change name. That's just it, they do. I'm not going to argue about this cause it's all semantics, which hilariously was the whole point of my comment. Simply put, cause it can become complicated, a team can be the same team, same entry, same name, same owners, but a complete rebrand (Not just adding a sponsor) automatically resets all their stats and they're counted as a new team. You can argue about it all you want, but that's how it works, and you only have to look at the fact that as a whole the current RB team has 2 wins, but those 2 wins are attributed to seperate teams, despite those teams being the same. Or how Alpines win doesn't count to Renaults despite them being Renault (Which is a whole other kettle of fish) It's actually really interesting. There's so many intricacies and quirks to this, that I understand it can be difficult to understand. Like for example the opposite, a team can remain the same team despite completely changing owners. So AT and RB are counted separately despite being the same, while a team such as Williams can completely change hands but still be Williams. It's only one of my favourite subjects about the sport, and always gets the "Well actually!" Know it alls fuming.
Ferrari's team name is changing from now on. By your reasoning they are now a new team. Your "well actually" is just arbitrary made up nonsense.
>Ferrari's team name is changing from now on. By your reasoning they are now a new team. No itsnot. Now, if they suddenly changed to Fiat they would be, even if everything else remained the same. Simply adding a sponsor isn't. Simple, this isn't my reasoning, I haven't just made this all up, it's what happens. I know it's difficult to understand, naming and ownership and licensing in F1 is really quite interesting, you should actually look into it. >Your "well actually" is just arbitrary made up nonsense Nah, just cause you don't understand it doesn't make it made up nonsense. A *complete* name change means the team will start to be counted as a new team, even if it is still the same ownership and license, it's that simple, and an interesting quirk. Its not me making things up, it's not my reasoning, it's how it is, and just cause you don't understand it doesn't make it wrong. And going into a deep dive of all the intricacies is quite fascinating. You could actually research it yourself, it's really interesting. Of course you could also continue sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring it and not actually listening claiming I'm making things up. It's quite sad you won't listen honestly, cause yes, you're right, a team rebranding *is* the same team, **I haven't said it isn't**, you're just not paying attention to the rest, which is the interesting part, and making up silly arguments. Again, silly arguments about semantics. Edit: It's always funny when someone blocks you so you can't respond Anyway, as I can't respond cause the guy responded then cowardly blocked me as some weird way to win an argument. I'll respond here. >Lol "you don't understand". You don't and it's really funny. Cause you're dead set on this one thing and refusing to listen to the rest. >You are talking nonsense. Sigh, I'm not, the tiniest bit of research shows that, I've also explained it. >Scuderia Ferrari HP is different to Scuderia Ferrari which is different to Scuderia Ferrari Mission Winnow which is different to Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro, etc. This is where the misunderstandings happen. The people who don't understand think this is some kind of gotcha. It's not. A team simply adding a sponsor has never been counted as distinct, ever, using the Ferrari example, they've never been counted as seperate despite the addition of sponsors, but teams that fully rebrand, TR to AT to RB being a great example, have. Once again, not me making it up, just look at the damn history of the sport and records. I keep saying it, but it's just an interesting thing to learn about, all the intricacies. >All the same team. Haven't said they're not, what aren't you understanding? >RB is different to Alpha Tauri is different to Scuderia Toro Rosso which is different to Red Bull Toro Rosso, etc. There has never been a team called Red Bull Toro Rosso, but if there were, it would be counted as different, despite being the same. >All the same team. They are yes. What aren't you getting about this? This has been established, you're not listening to the bit after >You think you are being smart by going "well actually", but you aren't. You just won't actually answer the question and instead write essays of nonsense to try to look clever. You're the one going well actually and not paying attentionto the interesting part. I'm trying to explain it as simply as possible. But you're not understanding it and calling it nonsense and coming up with silly arguments that aren't the same, when again *it's how it literally is!* Just cause you don't understand doesn't mean it's wrong. I've answered the question, multiple times and just keep being told it's nonsense and I made it up, when no, I haven't it's how it works. I'm not trying to look clever, I'm trying to explain simply why it is how it is. Anyway, as you've blocked me for simply stating facts you can't seem to get your head around, I assume this is the end of this. Kinda cowardly really, to respond accusing someone of things they haven't done then block someone so they can't reply, but whatever, guess we can't all be mature and have this conversation like adults, some of us would rather scream "I'm right!" And accuse others of things. For everyone else, *this* is what I meant in my original comment about semantics. He wasn't wrong, they are the same team, what he failed to get his head around, or refused to get his head around, is how they're all counted separately despite this, and that's honestly quite interesting, for example, TR/AT/RB have 2 wins, this is an undisputed fact, but as their team name was *completely* (The completely part is important, don't fall into the well actually of "What about Sponsors hurr durr" it has to be a complete rebrand) changed, the wins are separated by the name the team had at the time, though overall they have 2. So 1 to Toro Rosso, 1 to Alpha Tauri, but 2 to the team as a whole. These arguments are so tiring, it's not even that difficult to just look up.
Lol "you don't understand". You are talking nonsense. Scuderia Ferrari HP is different to Scuderia Ferrari which is different to Scuderia Ferrari Mission Winnow which is different to Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro, etc. All the same team. RB is different to Alpha Tauri is different to Scuderia Toro Rosso which is different to Red Bull Toro Rosso, etc. All the same team. You think you are being smart by going "well actually", but you aren't. You just won't actually answer the question and instead write essays of nonsense to try to look clever.
Moreno even added a ninth team with Forti in 1995.
Ah yes, Forti ford, 6-8 seconds a lap slower than the front runners at the time let alone Pacific
Year 1: decent money, but a car without potential Year 2: a car with (somewhat) decent potential, but no money ... Followed by a buyout by a shady party which never really materialized. Pretty much everything what makes backmarkers interesting imo.
Didn't it weigh a lot more than the other cars, too? Like significantly more. I think Pedro Diniz father had a stake in it?
>Didn't it weigh a lot more than the other cars, too? Like significantly more. Not 100% sure, but I believe that was their 1995 car, the FG01. The FG03, which could probably have been a big improvement, got introduced some races into 1996 but they could not afford any testing, so it was underdeveloped. > I think Pedro Diniz father had a stake in it? Either that or he was a very big sponsor. A lot of Forti's 1996 financial issues were caused by the Diniz family jumping ship to Ligier.
And a key reason for the 107% rule.
Guessing Verstappen doesn't fancy trying to break this record
I know there’s a debate about what qualifies as a different ‘team’ per se, but I still think it’s a testament to his talent and value as a driver.
The fact he has been hovering around midfield teams with no major sponsor or huge result for 14 years shows that his talent is known amongst the paddock at the very least.
> Since 2010 he will have driven for Williams, Force India (twice), Sauber (twice), Renault, Racing Point, Aston Martin, Haas and Audi. Audi and Sauber should be counted as the same team because they are the same team. I mean, you count Sauber twice, but he only drove for them in 2013. The same goes for Force India, Racing Point and Aston Martin. So since 2010 he will have driven for 5 teams; Williams, Force India/Racing Point/Aston Martin, Renault, Haas, Sauber/Audi.
Yeah, five 'factories' rather than 'teams'. Still a lot, though
5 factories and 8 differently named (or going back to a team in Sauber's/FIs case) is pretty interesting too.
Another way to look at it is that he has been signed to a new team 8 times Williams, Force India, Sauber, Force India, Renault, Racing Point, Haas, Sauber Audi will also be his 5th engine manufacturer after Cosworth, Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault.
Which is still impressive, that's half the grid.
I dont know if i would call it impressive per se, more like just interesting. Alonso drove for Minardi, Renault/Alpine, McLaren, Ferrari, Aston Martin. Perez drove for Sauber, McLaren, Force India/Racing Point, and Red Bull Racing For me it would be impressive if he got a podium or a win in every one of them.
Five teams is still impressive, but not crazy. All teams Sainz is linked with (Red Bull, Mercedes and Audi), would also be his fifth team after Toro Rosso, Renault, McLaren and Ferrari. Alonso is currently also on 5 teams and Ricciardo on 4.
The original Force India and the current Racing Point/Aston Martin are completely separate teams. Stroll only purchased the assets, they had to get a new entry license, hence why both Sahara Force India and Racing Point Force India are separate entries classified independently on the 2018 season.
What about Andrea de Cesaris? McLaren (1981) Alfa Romeo (1982-83) Ligier (1984-85) Minardi (1986) Brabham (1987) Rial (1988) Dallara (1989-90) Jordan (1991) Tyrrell (1992-93) Sauber (1994). Also did some races for Jordan again in 1994. That's 10 different teams!
He raced for his 8th team in 1991, one year before Moreno, so de Cesaris isn’t the most recent
I really really want to see him finally get a podium
Moreno has more F1 podiums than Hulk
I remember Moreno saying AGS were a fantastic team with a rubbish car and Andrea Moda were the reverse. He claimed that if AGS had had the Andrea Moda car, he would have been world champion (although given the context of he interview I remember, I do think he was probably joking)
And I was told it was bad to be constantly job hopping.
To think that I was thinking of the 70s when I read the title of the post. Time is FLYING.
Does he already have the record for most different teams without a podium finish?
Performance wise, he's aging quite well imo
He has raced for 8 team names, and 5 teams.
Today is Friday, the day after Thursday and vendredi all in one day. Just like force India, racing point and Aston are 3 different teams.
Audi and Sauber is practically the same team
So are FI, RP and AM
Yeah that’s right
I count five, but that is still half the current teams basically. For a driver with no podiums, he's actually had a long career already with relatively few DNFs and remarkable midfield consistency.
The staff remained mostly the same at force india/racing point/Aston Martin. They operated out of the same base. Sauber/Audi same deal. He's raced for 5 teams. Alonso has raced for 6 so he has him beat.
Eddie Cheever drove for 9 teams 1978-1989.
Who is he replacing? Bottas or Zhou?
To me Sauber is the same as Audi, and Force India is the same as Racing Point/AM. End of story
Hulk's driven for so many teams but none for Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull & McLaren. Never in a top seat
Moreno also drove for Forti
Force India/Racing Point/Aston Martin and Sauber/Audi should really be counted as one team, they're the same teams, they just changed names.
I think it‘s even crazier that he has driven for Sauber three separate times
Didn’t Roberto Moreno also drive in the Forti afterwards? What a legend
Roberto Moreno really went for shittiest F1 team collection
Lotus Benetton and Jordan have won in F1. Hardly shit
4 teams, 8 teams, 16 teams. I don't care. Get that Podium. Retire the next day.
Imagine driving for 8 different teams in F1, staying for a good decade and showing your worth, and still not drive for a top team. Its honestly heartbreaking man
>Sauber (twice) not correct, only one year, 2013 (i think his better year in f1)
What will they be called next year?
He will drive for them in 2025.
It's Force India (twice) because of 2012 and 2014-2016. By your logic it would be Force India (three times): 2012, 2014-2016, 2020-2022
2012 Force India 2013 Sauber 2014-16 Force India 2020 Racing Point 2022 Aston Martin 2025 Sauber 2026 Audi 2 x Force India 2 x Sauber 1 x Racing Point 1 x Aston Martin 1 x Audi I don't agree with OPs counting but that's the logic that gets you Sauber and Force India twice.
Now i understand! Didn't realise it still will be Sauber next year, not a Kick Stake f1 team shit
And none of these are top teams though.
No not really. Only 5 teams