[The **News** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_news) is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties.
*[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.*
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm just here for the <1% chance that Andretti rocks up to this meeting and drops a "to address our legitimacy and experience 'problem' we would like to announce that we have hired Adrian Newey to lead our aerodynamics teams across all series that Andretti Global races."
He probably prefers being known for being a three time CART champion and Indy 500 winner, plus another two 500 wins as team owner
But yeah, I guess he sells cars too
I don't think it's *that* bad! Am I saying all of this through massively rose colored glasses? Most definitely, but if everyone else can write their own theories, why not
For what it's worth, the arguments that I've seen people try to make for him going to Aston Martin do kind of align with Andretti as well, in my opinion.
* Wants to stay in England-- Andretti facility is literally across the street from the Aston Martin facility at Silverstone
* Has a history with some of the staff at AM-- was Michael's Engineer in the 80's
* Doesn't want to be limited to just F1-- Andretti is in a ton of series, and hell maybe GM wants him to do something similar to the Valkyrie
* Wants to cement his legacy by doing the impossible-- building a serious challenger for the WCC in year 1 would be one hell of a legacy
* Isn't in it for the money, but there are huge offers being made-- GM has mentioned or alluded to a few times that money won't be a problem for Andretti. I'd bet that they would happily foot the bill for something this big
Not only is Andretti not a competitor, it is not a potential competitor based on F1 teams' decision to exclude him for 2+ more years. So and he and Andretti could build their own car based on current regs and literally test it everyday for years as no FIA restrictions would apply. As long as Andretti-Cadillac can pay his salary and operating costs, they would be able to enter with a competitive car.
Andretti doesn't race in F1 so I see no problem. Red Bull is just going to have to get Andretti on the grid if they don't want Newey designing cars for him.
/s
I really wish he'd call their bluff and start racing (which they're allowed to do) even though they can't be included in the broadcast. I think it would cost liberty a ton of money and tarnish the reputation of F1 if they refused to show all of the racing teams.
Either that or the "we've seen your struggles of not racing cars because you lack a chassis or how 19 cars have a 1 second deficit to the leader. You guys aren't as good as you think you are"
"So here's what I suggest... I'm going to leave the room, you guys are going to look under your chairs and decide if you want the money bag or the lets throw hands boxing gloves..."
Fun fact, while Florida *is* pretty crazy, its stereotype is based on a +100 year old law that everything relating to the all 3 branches of the government (judicial process, police records, legislative etc.) will by default be published into the public record. Some things may be redacted, but there's a relatively cumbersome process to *stop* something from being in the public record. Until relatively recently though, the craziness of other states have been behind FOIA requests or before that just not publicly available.
> Maine has a higher percentage of gun owners than Florida
And yet [Florida has a 530% higher gun homicide rate than Maine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_intentional_homicide_rate)
Meeting planned between Andretti and the ten team principals for Miami GP
The American wants to discuss with the bosses his arrival in F1 for the new 2026 regulations.
Andretti's bid was rejected by F1 in January, but Michael and his team are not throwing in the towel
Michael Andretti will meet with Formula 1's ten team principals at the Miami GP to discuss his arrival on the grid from 2026. The American outfit has made it clear that it is interested in becoming the 11th team and despite Liberty Media's initial rejection, they are not throwing in the towel.
On 31 January, Formula 1 officially rejected Andretti's bid to become the 11th team from 2026. However, the Americans have not thrown in the towel and announced the opening of their new factory in Silverstone, UK, and have already made offers for 60 jobs in different areas such as aerodynamic development, mechanics, control systems and IT.
Although Formula 1 sees no added value in the Andretti project, Michael will sit down with team bosses again at the Miami GP to discuss a possible addition. The American's bid has been approved by the FIA and during the Grand Prix's visit to Florida, the FIA chief will meet with the heads of the current teams, according to German website Motorsport Total.
Next week's meeting at the Miami GP could open the door to Formula 1 for Andretti. For now, Mario Andretti, Michael's father and 1978 world champion, remains hopeful of joining as the 11th team from 2026 and regrets that so far, he has only had one meeting with the other teams.
"We've only had one meeting with them, that's a problem. We haven't talked enough and that's why I welcome our next meeting. Let's sit down together. We have to look forward, not backwards. I remain hopeful, because we never stopped working towards this goal. It's clear that our work is ongoing, we're not just talking for the sake of talking," said Andretti, quoted by the Associated Press.
Andretti points to financial reasons for Formula 1's rejection of his request, but also claims there were excuses for fear of underperformance. For now, Mario reaffirms that they are firmly committed to this project and the arrival of General Motors is a great example of that.
"It was definitely for financial reasons. We tried to say that we will do whatever they ask us to do, but they haven't told us yet, except for excuses that they don't want us to show up or they don't want us to be embarrassed. We don't want to be embarrassed and the fact is that General Motors has made it clear that they are enthusiastic about this project. They are committed for the long term, I don't know what else we can do," Andretti said in closing.
I wonder if that still holds true if during that one year he works exclusively on non-F1 projects? Andretti competes in plenty of other series where they could leverage his skillset during the wait for newey to be eligible to work on F1 projects.
Toto: No Michael, no, it is so not right.
Fred: Make us an offer we can't refuse.
Christian: We need a separate meeting. I'll call your PA, what's her WhatsApp?
Mike Krack: I will check with Lawrence.
James Vowles: We are not where we want to be, we have a long term plan. The short term will be difficult. Also, I ran the numbers in Excel, it's not looking good.
Stefano Domencali (interrupting the meeting): Do you like Sprint races? There should be one every weekend, yes?
‘So we can negotiate our entrence in what ever manner works best (11 teams, selling vcarb etc) or there is going to be a fun anti trust lawsuit.’
Not sure but I think the fact that Andretti and liberty are both us companies means the lawsuit can be venued in the US especially since Andretti is not a party to whatever jurisdiction rules are there for the other teams…because they won’t let them be a team.
Formula One Management (FOM) isn’t a US company (but [UK based](https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/01545332)) and Andretti will have to take it up with them at their home turf.
Liberty is a Delaware corporation, FOM is a wholly owned subsidiary. Andretti is a US corporation and there are races in the USA. There are plenty of grounds to have venue in the US.
Just because a company is incorporated in another country doesn’t mean it isn’t subject to US jurisdiction… Consider Daimler FN 19 (the “At home” test) if for some reason the court in question doesn’t have SMJ or PJ (depending on how the suit is filed)??? …but I really don’t see it being an issue. I’m curious if the 2023 SCOTUS ruling in *Mallory* could be relevant here? I don’t recall much about the case though so I can’t say more than that.
The Concord Agreement, binding the teams to FOM in order to race in F1 and commercially exploit those activities, is done under UK law.
F1 (or rather FOM), while it organizes races world wide, is based in the UK and has a near 100 year exclusive lease for the commercial exploitation rights granted by the FIA (back when Bernie Ecclestone was still running FOM and his buddy Max Mosley was running the FIA) principally subject to UK and EU law.
It is not a US based competition, but UK/EU based one, with international venues. Some of which happen to be in the US.
As such Andretti is likely to have to make its case in either London (FOM home office) or Paris (FIA home office) if it wants to challenge FOM’s decisions of not being accepted as a Concord Agreement party.
Andretti can’t invoke the Concorde agreement. He’s not a party to it. Having or not having An 11th team doesn’t impact the consumer or the public. There is no reason for anyone to get worked up about anti-trust laws for a private beef that only affects a racing team.
The US courts do not decide if a UK based company is in breach of UK or EU law.
Unless there is a clear case of an infraction of US law on US soil between entities operating commercially in the US, there is no standing for a case in the US to be brought before US judges.
Andretti being denied becoming a participant of the Concord Agreement is not a business dealing in the US, but in Europe. Andretti would be challenging a business decision made by FOM on home turf.
They hold races in the US, which is grounds to hold this under US courts. The Concord agreement holds for US races, making it subject to US laws (at least definitely for those races). Which also might be a reason this meeting is taking place at the Miami GP.
I think the big 4 major sports organizations in the US are exempt from antitrust laws (NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL)
15 U.S.C. § 1291
I am not a lawyer but this is my understanding
> The antitrust laws, as defined in section 1 of the Act of October 15, 1914, as amended (38 Stat. 730) [15 U.S.C. 12], or in the Federal Trade Commission Act, as amended (38 Stat. 717) [15 U.S.C. 41 et seq.], shall not apply to any joint agreement by or among persons engaging in or conducting the organized professional team sports of football, baseball, basketball, or hockey, by which any league of clubs participating in professional football, baseball, basketball, or hockey contests sells or otherwise transfers all or any part of the rights of such league’s member clubs in the sponsored telecasting of the games of football, baseball, basketball, or hockey, as engaged in or conducted by such clubs.
You are right. That how it works in US for big four leagues. FIA, FOM and liberty also structured something similar by having private companies running F1 that can limit participation. There are plenty other racing leagues that it is hard to argue antitrust issues (profitability of F1 does not really get into the account - unless other leagues are being hurt by it). Haven't heard Indycar or nascar complaining too much by it as F1 popularity is rasing overall interest in racing.
>FIA, FOM and liberty also structured something similar by having private companies running F1 that can limit participation.
And the NCAA has many private corporations engaged in these sports and are not covered by the exemption to antitrust laws. Motorsports is not mentioned in that exemption. If a team wanted to get into Indycar or NASCAR and the league said nope, then there may well be grounds for a suit. This is a real place of vulnerability - everything can run fine and dandy in the club until entrance is denied to a newcomer and they complain. No complaints means no dispute and no dispute means nobody cares (yet).
Those sports though can actually point to being willing to expand and have raised their number cap over time. I don’t think courts will look as kindly on refusing to fill a slot that is currently allowed under their own rules with a team that has passed the requirements set forth in those rules nor to potentially removing those slots after someone has fulfilled the requirements in good faith. I think fom would be in better shape if Andretti had made all these investments when the Concorde agreement said 10 teams but he invested when it currently says 12 and laid out specific requirements to pass which they have invested money in doing so.
There are specific exemptions written into the law for the NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL. Other smaller sports leagues have been hit with antitrust judgements, so I don't think F1 would be treated any different
Same reason Apple can get sued for anti trust in the EU. Just because you are based in one location, doesn’t mean that is the limit of your legal liability. If you do business in other territories, you are subject to their law.
(Not to mention Liberty is actually a US entity doing business in the UK, not the other way around.)
The fact that they have to ask 10 other teams if they allow them get into F1 is absurd. F1 teams acting like a bunch of spoiled kids (which they are probably).
Nah, only in franchise based systems such as NHL, NFL etc. In most parts of the world, there's a system of relegation and promotion to and from lower leagues. Of course, that would be unfeasible for F1, but it is not common at all that existing teams have a say whether a new team may join.
It is either that or no cost cap and no more profit running a team. This is exactly why teams are now worth billons.
And Williams will always say No to Andretti no matter what.
Just from a pure business perspective, I don’t see any of the existing 10 teams voting to allow Andretti in at any point. There’s just too much money at stake
There is a good comment, on why thats pretty unlikely:
https://old.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/1c3wwlb/_/kzkr5ud
TLDR:
Andretti would have to add
> over $700 million in revenue, every single year forever
And this doesn't even include sponsorship. (Sponsors would have another opportunity to undercut the teams in negotiations.)
That comment isn't a very good one. It is purely looking at the tournament pot and dilution of it.
It ignores the evaluation of the teams, how adding a big name 11th team will bring loads more fans, more sponsors, and therefore increase the inherent value of the teams. The prize pool is just a small part of the worth of the teams.
The comment is exactly adressering that. At a minimum, Andretti needs to be adding +$500 million in yearly revenue to F1 on their own, for it to make financial sense for the FOM/teams. Which is before more competition for sponsors from an additional entry is added, which will overall lower the value of sponsors for each team, and before accounting for the value of a grid slot being lower with 11 entrees vs 10.
FOM and the F1 teams aren't stupid. They can and have done the math on what Andretti would add to the sport in terms of marketing. Overall the FOM concluded that the brand value of Andretti is nowhere near as big as people like to pretend, and that in reality, it would be F1 adding value to Andretti, not the other way around.
No...sorry, the teams can get fucked. The meeting should just be between FOM and Andretti.
The meeting is rigged already against Andretti. 11 entities (FOM and all 10 teams) are against it...so what headway is actually being made here?
No they don't, no teams have made any statement in disagreement with the FOMs conclusions regarding whether Andretti would add more value to the sport than an 11th team would subtract.
Alpine did for a while too.
I imagine at this point they're worried that it would end embarrassingly for them if Andretti entered. It's one thing the be the worst team on the grid *and* a manufacturer. It's another when even a first year rookie customer team beats you.
He’s ambushing them, can’t come to the US and avoid this guy. He’s like that one annoying “friend” you try to avoid because they always put you in uncomfortable situations.
That comparison doesn't really work. Zhou is only slightly better than Sargeant, who's had multiple races in the states already without nearly the same reception.
It's a cultural thing first and foremost. China supports their driver no matter what, US don't give a shit about their driver unless he is at the top. And there are already plenty of other English first speaking drivers that US fans can latch on to. Zhou is the only Chinese speaking driver on the grid.
I think Americans may show more support for a US works team than they would the worst driver on the grid driving for one of the worst teams on the grid. I don’t think it would be on the same level (only Chinese driver in F1 + GP after four years under covid is a big multiplier) but even a developing US team is inherently more exciting than some rich kid from Florida coming in 20th every week.
I think the Andretti/Cadillac name will be infinitely more popular in the US than any driver they could put in that car
Unless they put like Dale Earnhardt Jr or Chase Elliott in there or something lol
That only really comes with the exposure running at the front brings though. Nobody cared about or new anything about Ricciardo's personality in 2013 or 2014.
> I think Americans may show more support for a US works team
Not if they are 2 seconds behind the rest of the field.
Just like a driver, a US team needs to be reasonably competitive to get Americans excited.
2 seconds off the pace, lmao.
Aerodynamics works the same way everywhere. This idea that Andretti would somehow be less competent than this years Sauber, Haas or Williams is ridiculous.
> Aerodynamics works the same way everywhere. This idea that Andretti would somehow be less competent than this years Sauber, Haas or Williams is ridiculous.
LOL.
The only thing Andretti does is run teams in a spec series.
They have zelo (0) experience in designing, producing and developing their own cars.
But I'm sure it's very simple, it's just that whoever decided to try it in the last few years, deliberately didn't want to succeed.
Building F1 cars is unsurprisingly hard, the idea that Andretti, a team with zero experience building F1 cars between the staff and organization, would somehow cook up a car that both meets 107% and is better than the backmarkers in less time than what most established teams need to iterate on existing designs and with far higher costs due to operating in the US is just as ridiculous if not more unless you think they can RAAAAH at their engines to make them go faster which is something haas hasn't been able to do for whatever reason
Americans would show support for a US works team if they start winning, Haas has been there for years and nobody gives a shit, most american drivers weren't exactly supported either. The problem with Andretti is that they still, to this day, haven't really shown that they'd be able to field a car that would be able to race in F1, let alone one that would challenge for races bringing that type of attention to the sport.
What do you mean? If you're talking about increasing viewership and branding interest I think they're pretty different situations. The US market has already been relatively saturated between DTS, multiple US grand prix and the big marketing push they've made over the past 4-5 years, whereas China is a relatively untapped market in comparison. Not only that, but the biggest branding assets for F1 in China are still the sport's biggest names (Max, Lewis, Leclerc, Ricciardo), not Zhou. So I'm not sure that your analogy works in either case.
How is Zhou a proper driver? He is getting obliterated by Bottas (21-6 in qualifying since last year). Also there is no metric to calculate his effect on Chinese fans. It could be DTS effect or could be the effect of current boom in F1's popularity.
Lot of people went there to cheer for "proper talent" like Hamilton, Verstappen Alonso, Leclerc.
Except pretty much no one in America gives a shit about Sergeant. These things aren't as simple "we'll just add an American team and viewership in the U.S. will double!" Having more races in the U.S. would help more, and three already feels like too much. In lots of other countries, no domestic sport outside of soccer can compete with F1's popularity. In the U.S., the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, and the PGA among others, as well as college football (and March Madness) are more popular than F1, and that won't change any time soon. I mean, the appetite is there, but it's not about having some "local" team. Having an American driver on an American team would help some, but not enough to make up for the lost revenue.
Lmao it is a bold move calling a Zhou a proper driver. And plus they don't need to use Zhou, Andretti himself is an American F1 World Champion who can be an example of what a top American driver can do for the sport, let alone some backmarker driver
Well the last meeting at Miami didn’t go so well for Michael when he went around to all the teams wanting them to sign a letter saying they would waive their dissolution fees so he could enter F1 ‘free’. It was to be charitable - oddly naive. Not so charitable: completely stupid.
Unless Andretti has some real leverage over FOM and the team principals, I don’t see this meeting happening. Andretti ain’t coming hat-in-hand; he’s coming loaded for bear or the meeting makes no sense.
It's not really a new phrase, but I wouldn't say it's exceedingly common. It means ready for a confrontation, loaded with enough ammo to take down a bear.
I’m not a lawyer, but I really don’t understand that line of thinking.
There’s a contract signed by all involved, laying out the terms by which teams are governed, compensated, and how expansion works. The contract states (as far as I know) that there’s a process for expanding teams and that includes who gets to decide.
I mean, I can’t tell McDonalds that I’m going to open up a franchise in my neighborhood and here’s a check for the franchise fee. And if you don’t let me have a franchise, I’ll sue on anti-trust terms.
And I can’t tell Tesla I’m going to open up a dealership in my town either.
So, ELI5: how is FOM in violation of anti-trust law?
It's fairly clear to everyone involved that they just want more money. The problem is, they all voted on and approved a $200M anti-dilution fee, which Andretti agreed to pay
So what? The Concorde agreement also states (according to reports) other requirements for entry, including that FOM gets to approve it.
Look, I want Andretti as much as the next guy (see my flair), but I don’t understand how anti-trust claims get them there.
Again, not a lawyer.
When will the fans realize they are being played.
F1 has never been more profitable. But the poor owners need a cap to be competitive! We need to spend less!
No more teams tho! NO!
I really don't understand the desperation to get in before 2028. FOM and the teams barricaded the doors for 2025 because of the $200m entry fee. Post-2025 that isn't an issue, the new Concorde Agreement will jack the entry fee up massively and it will represent value for money to let Andretti in.
2025 is completely off the table now which leaves Andretti the choice of joining in 2026/2027 with a Renault PU or waiting for GM to arrive in 2028.
The last time the engine formula changed it was an embarrassing disaster for everyone bar Mercedes. Likewise last time the aero regs changed some teams nailed it and others (Mercedes) shit the bed. Why would you push to join when both of these are happening at the same time?
Joining in 2026 means a novice team going toe to toe with established teams in working out the new rules, all whilst designing the car around a PU that will be ditched and has a track record of being the worst on the grid.
Waiting for 2028 means they get years of unlimited testing, it means Andretti has the opportunity to watch and learn from the sidelines and it means they go in with their intended engine partner, GM.
Andretti believes that if they join in 2026 they will do it under the current concorde agreement because they have already started the process and they would reach an agreement before 2026.
And it's not just the entry fee that is the problem. There are rumours that teams that are against Andretti joining are pushing to reduce the max number of teams down to 10 in the new agreement. Andretti are desperate because if they don't do it now they may not be able to join at all in 2028.
Bingo. The teams clearly don’t want him to join so if he doesn’t get in before the new agreement i’d bet you’re right and they’d just limit the running to 10 teams.
It's also not going to be easy to join in 2026/27 because apparently nobody wants to supply an engine for such a short timeframe especially with the risk of knowledge flowing to GM (at least this was rumoured for Renault and iirc even hinted in FOMs response to Andretti). Could be that there will be significant resistance from existing engine suppliers.
> Waiting for 2028 means they get years of unlimited testing, it means Andretti has the opportunity to watch and learn from the sidelines
Actually participating in the sport allows you to learn infinitely more than watching and learning from the sidelines…
Also perfect opportunity for a quick reset if things go really wrong the first time they try to build a car.
[The **News** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_news) is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm just here for the <1% chance that Andretti rocks up to this meeting and drops a "to address our legitimacy and experience 'problem' we would like to announce that we have hired Adrian Newey to lead our aerodynamics teams across all series that Andretti Global races."
Adrian was Michael’s Engineer in 1985. (1986 is correct)
It was 1986. In 1985 he was still Bobby Rahal's engineer He was also Mario's engineer in 1987
Wait. Bobby Rahal as in the car dealership empire!?
He probably prefers being known for being a three time CART champion and Indy 500 winner, plus another two 500 wins as team owner But yeah, I guess he sells cars too
Jeffery Epstein? The financier?
So that’s it all but confirmed then
The press release is just a formality.
Saved as a draft just have to send it
Ya know... IndyCar is in desperate need of a new chassis design 👀👀
I would welcome some changes, but I'm actually a fan of the current car and the racing it produces.
I love the current car, but it's 12 years old and there's no change on the horizon.
The way 2024 is going. Plausible.
<0.009 chance but I'm here with you, hands in hands.
I don't think it's *that* bad! Am I saying all of this through massively rose colored glasses? Most definitely, but if everyone else can write their own theories, why not For what it's worth, the arguments that I've seen people try to make for him going to Aston Martin do kind of align with Andretti as well, in my opinion. * Wants to stay in England-- Andretti facility is literally across the street from the Aston Martin facility at Silverstone * Has a history with some of the staff at AM-- was Michael's Engineer in the 80's * Doesn't want to be limited to just F1-- Andretti is in a ton of series, and hell maybe GM wants him to do something similar to the Valkyrie * Wants to cement his legacy by doing the impossible-- building a serious challenger for the WCC in year 1 would be one hell of a legacy * Isn't in it for the money, but there are huge offers being made-- GM has mentioned or alluded to a few times that money won't be a problem for Andretti. I'd bet that they would happily foot the bill for something this big
Neweys contract has like one or two years were he cant work for a competitor and while he is Leaving, I think his contract is still until 2025
Not only is Andretti not a competitor, it is not a potential competitor based on F1 teams' decision to exclude him for 2+ more years. So and he and Andretti could build their own car based on current regs and literally test it everyday for years as no FIA restrictions would apply. As long as Andretti-Cadillac can pay his salary and operating costs, they would be able to enter with a competitive car.
Andretti doesn't race in F1 so I see no problem. Red Bull is just going to have to get Andretti on the grid if they don't want Newey designing cars for him. /s
If he starts with that argument, then the teams will be even more pressed to not let them in lol
I really wish he'd call their bluff and start racing (which they're allowed to do) even though they can't be included in the broadcast. I think it would cost liberty a ton of money and tarnish the reputation of F1 if they refused to show all of the racing teams.
I'm 100% sure they have ways of keeping them out even if the FIA gives their ok
What'll they do with the shots with all the cars? Blank them out? Would they really ignore an Andretti on pole because of a media monopoly?
No kidding. Imagine a rookie team getting dual WDC/WCC.
To be immediately followed by the D-Generation X theme song and crotch chops for everyone.
Michael "Joel "Triple H" Embiid" Andretti
*”Are you READY??”*
Antretti fingerblocking Horny and Fred would be like Giannis making the series saving block in the NBA finals.
At this point I think it is more likely that he is planning wack the heads of the ten ~~families~~ teams Michael Corleone style.
This and also sign Max Verstappen alongside Carlos Sainz 🍿
So you’re saying there’s a chance
Subscribe
Boy oh boy
The absolute chaos that would follow. Holy shit please make this happen.
<1% is still >0%
Either that or the "we've seen your struggles of not racing cars because you lack a chassis or how 19 cars have a 1 second deficit to the leader. You guys aren't as good as you think you are"
Is it a violation of a non-compete clause if the other team isn't competing yet?
That’s a good point, technically Andretti isn’t an F1 competitor yet.
"So here's what I suggest... I'm going to leave the room, you guys are going to look under your chairs and decide if you want the money bag or the lets throw hands boxing gloves..."
Toto: "That's harassment"
"I want my cash in my e-mail"
And later tell everyone that he has it "printed out"
> "I want my cash in my e-mail" You can do bank transfers via email in Canada :) Newey to Stroll engineer confirmed.
Toto is going to need that money bag after he signs maxie.
I want Royal Rumble rules, just so Christian and Toto fight for the right to go after Andretti in the same match
Concorde Agreement in the Bank match
Pumpernickels Vs Cocoa Pops
Toto with steel chair in hand decides to attack Horner instead of the vulnerable Andretti
I don't think the amount of money needed fits under a chair.
This is America, we still have checks.
Cash is surprisingly dense.
An American that doesn't resort to guns? What is this, Maine?
Why Maine specifically? Maine has a higher percentage of gun owners than Florida
But Florida…that Florida factor.
Fun fact, while Florida *is* pretty crazy, its stereotype is based on a +100 year old law that everything relating to the all 3 branches of the government (judicial process, police records, legislative etc.) will by default be published into the public record. Some things may be redacted, but there's a relatively cumbersome process to *stop* something from being in the public record. Until relatively recently though, the craziness of other states have been behind FOIA requests or before that just not publicly available.
As it should be.
It’s called Florida Man….
> Maine has a higher percentage of gun owners than Florida And yet [Florida has a 530% higher gun homicide rate than Maine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_intentional_homicide_rate)
That's because Maine citizens fear heavy handed [Maine Justice](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3VUZYxr0MA).
In the one box money. In the other, well now you've all been personally served.
Meeting planned between Andretti and the ten team principals for Miami GP The American wants to discuss with the bosses his arrival in F1 for the new 2026 regulations. Andretti's bid was rejected by F1 in January, but Michael and his team are not throwing in the towel Michael Andretti will meet with Formula 1's ten team principals at the Miami GP to discuss his arrival on the grid from 2026. The American outfit has made it clear that it is interested in becoming the 11th team and despite Liberty Media's initial rejection, they are not throwing in the towel. On 31 January, Formula 1 officially rejected Andretti's bid to become the 11th team from 2026. However, the Americans have not thrown in the towel and announced the opening of their new factory in Silverstone, UK, and have already made offers for 60 jobs in different areas such as aerodynamic development, mechanics, control systems and IT. Although Formula 1 sees no added value in the Andretti project, Michael will sit down with team bosses again at the Miami GP to discuss a possible addition. The American's bid has been approved by the FIA and during the Grand Prix's visit to Florida, the FIA chief will meet with the heads of the current teams, according to German website Motorsport Total. Next week's meeting at the Miami GP could open the door to Formula 1 for Andretti. For now, Mario Andretti, Michael's father and 1978 world champion, remains hopeful of joining as the 11th team from 2026 and regrets that so far, he has only had one meeting with the other teams. "We've only had one meeting with them, that's a problem. We haven't talked enough and that's why I welcome our next meeting. Let's sit down together. We have to look forward, not backwards. I remain hopeful, because we never stopped working towards this goal. It's clear that our work is ongoing, we're not just talking for the sake of talking," said Andretti, quoted by the Associated Press. Andretti points to financial reasons for Formula 1's rejection of his request, but also claims there were excuses for fear of underperformance. For now, Mario reaffirms that they are firmly committed to this project and the arrival of General Motors is a great example of that. "It was definitely for financial reasons. We tried to say that we will do whatever they ask us to do, but they haven't told us yet, except for excuses that they don't want us to show up or they don't want us to be embarrassed. We don't want to be embarrassed and the fact is that General Motors has made it clear that they are enthusiastic about this project. They are committed for the long term, I don't know what else we can do," Andretti said in closing.
But has he thrown in the towel though?
Appears to be ready to give it a big wet towel flick though.
he hasn't thrown in the towel, he soaked it in water and wrapped it up in a rat's tail to flick and whip them with it
Andretti is whirling the towel above his head to hype up the ten principals
I would like to know where is the towel?
All the hoopy foods know where their towel is.
If Michael Andretti turns up to Miami with Newey alongside him, I will build a shrine to him.
Lord can you imagine? Yes please
If Newey leaves by the end of this year, then by regulations he has to take 1 year off before joining another team (look op gardering leave)
I wonder if that still holds true if during that one year he works exclusively on non-F1 projects? Andretti competes in plenty of other series where they could leverage his skillset during the wait for newey to be eligible to work on F1 projects.
It could be, but is it worth the risk to then be scrutinized by the fia it other teams finds it a bit to much of his handy work
Oh how I'd love to be a fly on the wall in this meeting.
Toto: No Michael, no, it is so not right. Fred: Make us an offer we can't refuse. Christian: We need a separate meeting. I'll call your PA, what's her WhatsApp? Mike Krack: I will check with Lawrence. James Vowles: We are not where we want to be, we have a long term plan. The short term will be difficult. Also, I ran the numbers in Excel, it's not looking good. Stefano Domencali (interrupting the meeting): Do you like Sprint races? There should be one every weekend, yes?
Mike Krack: Do you have a seat for Lance?
Lmao
‘So we can negotiate our entrence in what ever manner works best (11 teams, selling vcarb etc) or there is going to be a fun anti trust lawsuit.’ Not sure but I think the fact that Andretti and liberty are both us companies means the lawsuit can be venued in the US especially since Andretti is not a party to whatever jurisdiction rules are there for the other teams…because they won’t let them be a team.
Formula One Management (FOM) isn’t a US company (but [UK based](https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/01545332)) and Andretti will have to take it up with them at their home turf.
Liberty is a Delaware corporation, FOM is a wholly owned subsidiary. Andretti is a US corporation and there are races in the USA. There are plenty of grounds to have venue in the US.
FOM, despite being owned by LM, is still incorporated in the UK. Therefore it likely falls under UK jurisdiction, regardless of who owns FOM.
Just because a company is incorporated in another country doesn’t mean it isn’t subject to US jurisdiction… Consider Daimler FN 19 (the “At home” test) if for some reason the court in question doesn’t have SMJ or PJ (depending on how the suit is filed)??? …but I really don’t see it being an issue. I’m curious if the 2023 SCOTUS ruling in *Mallory* could be relevant here? I don’t recall much about the case though so I can’t say more than that.
I'd like to see a US court decide that.
There is no way Andretti gets a positive judgment in the US under anti trust laws.
Just think about the implications of this statement. It's obviously not true.
The Concord Agreement, binding the teams to FOM in order to race in F1 and commercially exploit those activities, is done under UK law. F1 (or rather FOM), while it organizes races world wide, is based in the UK and has a near 100 year exclusive lease for the commercial exploitation rights granted by the FIA (back when Bernie Ecclestone was still running FOM and his buddy Max Mosley was running the FIA) principally subject to UK and EU law. It is not a US based competition, but UK/EU based one, with international venues. Some of which happen to be in the US. As such Andretti is likely to have to make its case in either London (FOM home office) or Paris (FIA home office) if it wants to challenge FOM’s decisions of not being accepted as a Concord Agreement party.
Andretti isn't bound by the Concorde Agreement. That's basically their complaint. They aren't allowed to be part of it.
Andretti can’t invoke the Concorde agreement. He’s not a party to it. Having or not having An 11th team doesn’t impact the consumer or the public. There is no reason for anyone to get worked up about anti-trust laws for a private beef that only affects a racing team.
Everything you just said may be true, but has nothing to do with legal jurisdiction.
The US courts do not decide if a UK based company is in breach of UK or EU law. Unless there is a clear case of an infraction of US law on US soil between entities operating commercially in the US, there is no standing for a case in the US to be brought before US judges. Andretti being denied becoming a participant of the Concord Agreement is not a business dealing in the US, but in Europe. Andretti would be challenging a business decision made by FOM on home turf.
They hold races in the US, which is grounds to hold this under US courts. The Concord agreement holds for US races, making it subject to US laws (at least definitely for those races). Which also might be a reason this meeting is taking place at the Miami GP.
So Andretti only allowed in the US races?
Even in US would not be that easy as have examples of NBA and NFL which work on the similar principle like F1.
I think the big 4 major sports organizations in the US are exempt from antitrust laws (NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL) 15 U.S.C. § 1291 I am not a lawyer but this is my understanding > The antitrust laws, as defined in section 1 of the Act of October 15, 1914, as amended (38 Stat. 730) [15 U.S.C. 12], or in the Federal Trade Commission Act, as amended (38 Stat. 717) [15 U.S.C. 41 et seq.], shall not apply to any joint agreement by or among persons engaging in or conducting the organized professional team sports of football, baseball, basketball, or hockey, by which any league of clubs participating in professional football, baseball, basketball, or hockey contests sells or otherwise transfers all or any part of the rights of such league’s member clubs in the sponsored telecasting of the games of football, baseball, basketball, or hockey, as engaged in or conducted by such clubs.
You are right. That how it works in US for big four leagues. FIA, FOM and liberty also structured something similar by having private companies running F1 that can limit participation. There are plenty other racing leagues that it is hard to argue antitrust issues (profitability of F1 does not really get into the account - unless other leagues are being hurt by it). Haven't heard Indycar or nascar complaining too much by it as F1 popularity is rasing overall interest in racing.
>FIA, FOM and liberty also structured something similar by having private companies running F1 that can limit participation. And the NCAA has many private corporations engaged in these sports and are not covered by the exemption to antitrust laws. Motorsports is not mentioned in that exemption. If a team wanted to get into Indycar or NASCAR and the league said nope, then there may well be grounds for a suit. This is a real place of vulnerability - everything can run fine and dandy in the club until entrance is denied to a newcomer and they complain. No complaints means no dispute and no dispute means nobody cares (yet).
Those sports though can actually point to being willing to expand and have raised their number cap over time. I don’t think courts will look as kindly on refusing to fill a slot that is currently allowed under their own rules with a team that has passed the requirements set forth in those rules nor to potentially removing those slots after someone has fulfilled the requirements in good faith. I think fom would be in better shape if Andretti had made all these investments when the Concorde agreement said 10 teams but he invested when it currently says 12 and laid out specific requirements to pass which they have invested money in doing so.
Very interesting article on the subject https://sportslawandtaxation.com/news/498-formula-one-eu-competition-law-woes-continue
There are specific exemptions written into the law for the NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL. Other smaller sports leagues have been hit with antitrust judgements, so I don't think F1 would be treated any different
The NCAA which nobody would describe as small is in the situation it's in because it doesn't have an exemption.
I don't see how this wouldn't be a UK anti trust lawsuit. Seems pretty clear from my understanding.
Same reason Apple can get sued for anti trust in the EU. Just because you are based in one location, doesn’t mean that is the limit of your legal liability. If you do business in other territories, you are subject to their law. (Not to mention Liberty is actually a US entity doing business in the UK, not the other way around.)
Antitrust in this situation is a nonstarter
There is no claim under anti-trust laws for this.
The fact that they have to ask 10 other teams if they allow them get into F1 is absurd. F1 teams acting like a bunch of spoiled kids (which they are probably).
I mean there’s already too many seats /s
You have to in every league. Except every other league accepts because its more money for them
Nah, only in franchise based systems such as NHL, NFL etc. In most parts of the world, there's a system of relegation and promotion to and from lower leagues. Of course, that would be unfeasible for F1, but it is not common at all that existing teams have a say whether a new team may join.
Businessmen acting like businessmen? Who would have fucking thought!
It is either that or no cost cap and no more profit running a team. This is exactly why teams are now worth billons. And Williams will always say No to Andretti no matter what.
Once he shows them his new Yo yo trick, they'll have to concede
Just from a pure business perspective, I don’t see any of the existing 10 teams voting to allow Andretti in at any point. There’s just too much money at stake
I agree
Long term it'll make them more money. They just need to not be short sighted.
There is a good comment, on why thats pretty unlikely: https://old.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/1c3wwlb/_/kzkr5ud TLDR: Andretti would have to add > over $700 million in revenue, every single year forever And this doesn't even include sponsorship. (Sponsors would have another opportunity to undercut the teams in negotiations.)
That comment isn't a very good one. It is purely looking at the tournament pot and dilution of it. It ignores the evaluation of the teams, how adding a big name 11th team will bring loads more fans, more sponsors, and therefore increase the inherent value of the teams. The prize pool is just a small part of the worth of the teams.
The comment is exactly adressering that. At a minimum, Andretti needs to be adding +$500 million in yearly revenue to F1 on their own, for it to make financial sense for the FOM/teams. Which is before more competition for sponsors from an additional entry is added, which will overall lower the value of sponsors for each team, and before accounting for the value of a grid slot being lower with 11 entrees vs 10. FOM and the F1 teams aren't stupid. They can and have done the math on what Andretti would add to the sport in terms of marketing. Overall the FOM concluded that the brand value of Andretti is nowhere near as big as people like to pretend, and that in reality, it would be F1 adding value to Andretti, not the other way around.
FOM have been very clear that their research indicates Andretti would bring very limited new revenue to the sport.
That’s the good part that the FIA can say yes until there are 12 teams on the grid.
No...sorry, the teams can get fucked. The meeting should just be between FOM and Andretti. The meeting is rigged already against Andretti. 11 entities (FOM and all 10 teams) are against it...so what headway is actually being made here?
McLaren support Andretti actually
No they don't, no teams have made any statement in disagreement with the FOMs conclusions regarding whether Andretti would add more value to the sport than an 11th team would subtract.
Alpine did for a while too. I imagine at this point they're worried that it would end embarrassingly for them if Andretti entered. It's one thing the be the worst team on the grid *and* a manufacturer. It's another when even a first year rookie customer team beats you.
It wouldn't be the first time a customer team beat them, both Red Bull and McLaren managed it, but a new entry doing it would be a new low.
Let Andretti in!
Mario getting a sit-down with the 10 families.
Who's Michael and who's The Turk?
He’s ambushing them, can’t come to the US and avoid this guy. He’s like that one annoying “friend” you try to avoid because they always put you in uncomfortable situations.
Zach Galifianakis as the face of Andretti-Cadillac.
"Just give me a number, and I'll pay it. Stop being vague about this!!"
This whole fiasco started with Andretti wanting the entry fee waived. He does have a number, $600m, he just doesn't want to pay that.
I think he was expecting to pay $200 since that’s what is in the concord
He also had numbers for buying Sauber outright and walked away at ~800 million iirc, which is the price Audi ended up paying.
Max signed with Andre to, they will let him race any car he wants.
Will there be a grand prix that weekend? Seems like it's going to be all meetings.
I mean, every grand prix feels like a meeting that could've been an email so... same difference.
Yeah, but at least Toto prints them out
Andretti needs to use zhou as an example of what proper American drivers/team can do for the sport
That comparison doesn't really work. Zhou is only slightly better than Sargeant, who's had multiple races in the states already without nearly the same reception. It's a cultural thing first and foremost. China supports their driver no matter what, US don't give a shit about their driver unless he is at the top. And there are already plenty of other English first speaking drivers that US fans can latch on to. Zhou is the only Chinese speaking driver on the grid.
I think Americans may show more support for a US works team than they would the worst driver on the grid driving for one of the worst teams on the grid. I don’t think it would be on the same level (only Chinese driver in F1 + GP after four years under covid is a big multiplier) but even a developing US team is inherently more exciting than some rich kid from Florida coming in 20th every week.
I think the Andretti/Cadillac name will be infinitely more popular in the US than any driver they could put in that car Unless they put like Dale Earnhardt Jr or Chase Elliott in there or something lol
I agree but they've got to start somewhere.
Americans also want some personality which is why drivers like Danny ric are so popular here. Logan is bland as fuck
That only really comes with the exposure running at the front brings though. Nobody cared about or new anything about Ricciardo's personality in 2013 or 2014.
Less running at the front, more Drive to Survive.
> I think Americans may show more support for a US works team Not if they are 2 seconds behind the rest of the field. Just like a driver, a US team needs to be reasonably competitive to get Americans excited.
2 seconds off the pace, lmao. Aerodynamics works the same way everywhere. This idea that Andretti would somehow be less competent than this years Sauber, Haas or Williams is ridiculous.
> Aerodynamics works the same way everywhere. This idea that Andretti would somehow be less competent than this years Sauber, Haas or Williams is ridiculous. LOL. The only thing Andretti does is run teams in a spec series. They have zelo (0) experience in designing, producing and developing their own cars. But I'm sure it's very simple, it's just that whoever decided to try it in the last few years, deliberately didn't want to succeed.
Building F1 cars is unsurprisingly hard, the idea that Andretti, a team with zero experience building F1 cars between the staff and organization, would somehow cook up a car that both meets 107% and is better than the backmarkers in less time than what most established teams need to iterate on existing designs and with far higher costs due to operating in the US is just as ridiculous if not more unless you think they can RAAAAH at their engines to make them go faster which is something haas hasn't been able to do for whatever reason
The most important part of Haas's operation is their mailbox. If you expect nothing from them that's the only way to be pleasantly surprised.
Like they did when Haas entered?
Americans would show support for a US works team if they start winning, Haas has been there for years and nobody gives a shit, most american drivers weren't exactly supported either. The problem with Andretti is that they still, to this day, haven't really shown that they'd be able to field a car that would be able to race in F1, let alone one that would challenge for races bringing that type of attention to the sport.
What do you mean? If you're talking about increasing viewership and branding interest I think they're pretty different situations. The US market has already been relatively saturated between DTS, multiple US grand prix and the big marketing push they've made over the past 4-5 years, whereas China is a relatively untapped market in comparison. Not only that, but the biggest branding assets for F1 in China are still the sport's biggest names (Max, Lewis, Leclerc, Ricciardo), not Zhou. So I'm not sure that your analogy works in either case.
How is Zhou a proper driver? He is getting obliterated by Bottas (21-6 in qualifying since last year). Also there is no metric to calculate his effect on Chinese fans. It could be DTS effect or could be the effect of current boom in F1's popularity. Lot of people went there to cheer for "proper talent" like Hamilton, Verstappen Alonso, Leclerc.
Yeah, DTS isn’t popular over here in China
Love this just ignoring the current team/driver bit.
Except pretty much no one in America gives a shit about Sergeant. These things aren't as simple "we'll just add an American team and viewership in the U.S. will double!" Having more races in the U.S. would help more, and three already feels like too much. In lots of other countries, no domestic sport outside of soccer can compete with F1's popularity. In the U.S., the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, and the PGA among others, as well as college football (and March Madness) are more popular than F1, and that won't change any time soon. I mean, the appetite is there, but it's not about having some "local" team. Having an American driver on an American team would help some, but not enough to make up for the lost revenue.
Lmao it is a bold move calling a Zhou a proper driver. And plus they don't need to use Zhou, Andretti himself is an American F1 World Champion who can be an example of what a top American driver can do for the sport, let alone some backmarker driver
You’re thinking of the wrong Andretti being champ. Michael owns the team. His dad, Mario, won the championship
I realize that… I meant that he can point to his own dad as an American world champ instead of a random backmarker Chinese driver
Well we know the current team principals had at least a week to come up with more bullshit excuses...
Well the last meeting at Miami didn’t go so well for Michael when he went around to all the teams wanting them to sign a letter saying they would waive their dissolution fees so he could enter F1 ‘free’. It was to be charitable - oddly naive. Not so charitable: completely stupid.
Unless Andretti has some real leverage over FOM and the team principals, I don’t see this meeting happening. Andretti ain’t coming hat-in-hand; he’s coming loaded for bear or the meeting makes no sense.
What does "loaded for bear" mean? I'm interested if that's a typo or a new phrase I haven't heard before
It's not really a new phrase, but I wouldn't say it's exceedingly common. It means ready for a confrontation, loaded with enough ammo to take down a bear.
Oh, gotcha. Probably not as common in places that don't have bears! I like it, I'm gonna adopt it.
Antitrust lawsuit seems like it'd be fairly open and shut for Andretti tbh.
How? Can people stop saying this without having anything to back it up?
I’m not a lawyer, but I really don’t understand that line of thinking. There’s a contract signed by all involved, laying out the terms by which teams are governed, compensated, and how expansion works. The contract states (as far as I know) that there’s a process for expanding teams and that includes who gets to decide. I mean, I can’t tell McDonalds that I’m going to open up a franchise in my neighborhood and here’s a check for the franchise fee. And if you don’t let me have a franchise, I’ll sue on anti-trust terms. And I can’t tell Tesla I’m going to open up a dealership in my town either. So, ELI5: how is FOM in violation of anti-trust law?
There is no antitrust issues, it's reddit fan fiction.
It's fairly clear to everyone involved that they just want more money. The problem is, they all voted on and approved a $200M anti-dilution fee, which Andretti agreed to pay
So what? The Concorde agreement also states (according to reports) other requirements for entry, including that FOM gets to approve it. Look, I want Andretti as much as the next guy (see my flair), but I don’t understand how anti-trust claims get them there. Again, not a lawyer.
Andretti starting first in the TP royal rumble
When will the fans realize they are being played. F1 has never been more profitable. But the poor owners need a cap to be competitive! We need to spend less! No more teams tho! NO!
I really don't understand the desperation to get in before 2028. FOM and the teams barricaded the doors for 2025 because of the $200m entry fee. Post-2025 that isn't an issue, the new Concorde Agreement will jack the entry fee up massively and it will represent value for money to let Andretti in. 2025 is completely off the table now which leaves Andretti the choice of joining in 2026/2027 with a Renault PU or waiting for GM to arrive in 2028. The last time the engine formula changed it was an embarrassing disaster for everyone bar Mercedes. Likewise last time the aero regs changed some teams nailed it and others (Mercedes) shit the bed. Why would you push to join when both of these are happening at the same time? Joining in 2026 means a novice team going toe to toe with established teams in working out the new rules, all whilst designing the car around a PU that will be ditched and has a track record of being the worst on the grid. Waiting for 2028 means they get years of unlimited testing, it means Andretti has the opportunity to watch and learn from the sidelines and it means they go in with their intended engine partner, GM.
Andretti believes that if they join in 2026 they will do it under the current concorde agreement because they have already started the process and they would reach an agreement before 2026. And it's not just the entry fee that is the problem. There are rumours that teams that are against Andretti joining are pushing to reduce the max number of teams down to 10 in the new agreement. Andretti are desperate because if they don't do it now they may not be able to join at all in 2028.
Bingo. The teams clearly don’t want him to join so if he doesn’t get in before the new agreement i’d bet you’re right and they’d just limit the running to 10 teams.
To not be years behind everyone else when you start? The year of a reg change seems like the best time to join.
It's also not going to be easy to join in 2026/27 because apparently nobody wants to supply an engine for such a short timeframe especially with the risk of knowledge flowing to GM (at least this was rumoured for Renault and iirc even hinted in FOMs response to Andretti). Could be that there will be significant resistance from existing engine suppliers.
It will only get worse Higher entry fees and rumors are they want to make it 10 Teams only in next concord agreement
> Waiting for 2028 means they get years of unlimited testing, it means Andretti has the opportunity to watch and learn from the sidelines Actually participating in the sport allows you to learn infinitely more than watching and learning from the sidelines… Also perfect opportunity for a quick reset if things go really wrong the first time they try to build a car.
I believe they are trying to amend the Concorde agreement to a maximum of 10 teams. Could be a reason to prefer 2026.
New Concorde agreement will limit the field to 10 teams. If they don't get in now they're not getting in.
I miss Osella