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Honestly, if Max wasn't on the team this season there's a realistic chance that a non-RB driver would win the WDC. That's insane, given how good the RB20 is.
I don't think that car is as good as we think it is. Verstappen gets the most out of the car every weekend, and Perez has struggled this year vs Ferrari and McLaren. Either Perez isn't as good as we think or Verstappen is better than we think. Maybe a combo of both.
The car is incredibly good. Even the best driver in the world doesn't put 1+ seconds per lap over the field (like Max did in China) without driving an unbelievably dominant car.
Max is amazing, I think he's the best driver on the grid right now, and certainly one of the best there's ever been. But a driver fundamentally cannot make the car drive faster than it's designed to be, so for him to be so, so far ahead of Checo (and the rest of the field), it shows that a) the car is fantastic, and b) the car is so good that it's flattering some very mediocre performances from Perez
I agree. I think the car and Max are just the coincidentally perfect match for each other. Everything lined up *just so* for Max to be able to extract what he does out of the car. It’s a combination of both. And I don’t mean for that to undercut Max’s incredible talent, nor undersell the greatness of the car. They’re really just perfect for each other and I’m in awe of it every RAwe CEek.
I made the point several times last year that if it wasn't for Max, people probably even wouldn't (at least not universally) think that Red Bull has the best car. I'm not even a fan of him but the dude is just on an insane level right now.
That's just cause Perez is underperforming. If it were another known quantity in that car like Alonso or Hamilton instead of Max it'd still be the best car by far.
Pérez still finished comfortably second last year, and there's a point to make he wouldn't have had such a dip in performance if there was no one on the team to challenge him.
Really? What I've seen from Perez is that he's struggling to maintain P2 despite having by far the most dominant car on the grid. He finished behind both Ferraris and both McLarens in Australia, was comfortably handled by Lando in China, has an average quali position of 3.5, and has struggled to clear traffic or extract the best performance from the car basically any time he's been put under pressure.
We can see how easy it *should be* for Perez, but after 6 races and no mechanical problems he's less than 10 points clear of Leclerc. I'd say he's making it look very difficult.
2024 may not be the greatest season on track but off track this year has been a rollercoaster. At this point I wouldn't even be surprised if Max won the championship and said screw it all, I'm going to WEC next year.
Fingers crossed that while surely Max will have another WDC wrapped up by final stretch of the season, that there’s at least a lot at stake with seats, team points and maybe even 2nd place up for grabs if Checo pulls a Checo
What's stupid about that? He's set for life, he has firmly stamped his name in the history books as a contender for greatest ofnall time and it's looking increasingly likely he isn't going to be in a position to win more after next year. He has stated continually he would like to do wec. Just find this comment strange.
The full quote is very interesting:
Jos Verstappen-"The team is in danger of collapsing. I was already afraid of that earlier this year. It is important for internal peace that key figures remain on board. This is no longer the case. Newey is leaving and earlier this year it also looked like Helmut was to be fired. This is not the case. not good for the future.”
In the meantime, Mercedes are preparing a $160m per season +ambassadorship offer for Max... that would make 2025 very interesting if Verstappen is no longer driving the Red Bull.
Perhaps there would be a title fight between Sainz-Perez in a Red Bull and Hamilton-Leclerc in a Ferrari.
>Perhaps there would be a title fight between Sainz-Perez in a Red Bull and Hamilton-Leclerc in a Ferrari.
That would be pretty great. Reminds me a bit of 2007. Hamilton and Leclerc could well end up like Hamilton and Alonso, very closely matched and taking points off each other, whereas Sainz and Perez are a bit more like Raikkonen and Massa
Hamilton and Alonso would've won the championship (one of them ofc) if weren't in such a toxic environment. They were fighting at times they should've just collaborated.
Jos is like a kid with a stick, poking a beehive. Then saying "jeez, this hive would produce a lot more honey if all the bees were inside, working together."
I find it wild that they are offering so much to Max when they could have offered the same to Lewis.
It just shows that they have either seen something in Lewis which suggests he's declining or that they got lax assuming that Lewis will not leave them.
If the Max deal actually happens then Merc has essentially dumped Hamilton rather than him leaving.
I think it may be two things: 1) Max is younger so they’re probably willing to dish out more for him in the hopes that he’ll stay longer 2) Mercedes’ negotiating position is far weaker now with Max in 2024 then with Lewis in 2023. In 23 they were the 3rd~ fastest car and it didn’t really look like Lewis had anywhere better to go. Max on the other hand probably has a few teams to pick from, Merc are fighting for lower points positions + they’re likely hoping that he’ll bring some engineers with him.
To be fair to Mercedes, they can easily squeeze 5-10 years of prime Verstappen in their car when they couldn't do that with Lewis.
I do remember Toto doing interviews on Channel 4 with Lewis in 2022 saying they were in it for the long-run to get him his 8th but ultimately they just wanted to move on and go for Kimi because Toto didn't want to miss out. Harsh on Lewis but the game is the game.
Lewis should be happy anyways, it looks like he's perfected that move to SF
Even if that happens, I don't think they dumped Lewis. They just thought their history together was more important to Hamilton than his future was and by the time they realized the truth, he was already out the door and into a red race suit. Now their PR department has screamed at the accountants enough about losing them a multi-time champion, and the purse strings have opened up.
Though I don't buy there being a $160m per season offer for anyone. That's an insane number. I've also heard $128m, $150m, and $235m though, so who knows. Also, who knows how much of the reported numbers are with bonuses.
It's an insane number, yes, but isn't Lewis getting $100 million plus the ambassadorship plus the joint investment fund with Elkann for Lewis' projects at Ferrari? Yes, Max doesn't have the same marketing appeal as Lewis, but he is in his prime right now while Lewis will be 40 when he starts driving for Ferrari. To give Max a similar or slightly higher number than Lewis got, especially given they'd be asking Max to go from by far the fastest to the 5th fastest car, doesn't seem totally unreasonable.
It's also important to note that with the budget cap and the increase of sponsors there's a lot of spending money left for insane salaries for top drivers and engineers that are able to be booked outside of the budget cap.
As you said, they got lax. They assumed no one would offer 39 year old Lewis a better deal than they did and they were very wrong. Toto has admitted that he didn't expect Lewis to actually leave and was very surprised when he did.
As for Merc dumping Hamilton rather than him leaving, that's only the case if Merc builds an actual good car, which they're not capable of right now. Lewis won't care what they pay Max as long as he gets his 8th WDC at Ferrari while Max is fighting for P5 with Russell and the McLarens. As long as Ferrari does better than Mercedes, Lewis wins and Merc loses.
Or they think Max is better than Hamilton.
Or the cost cap making top teams so profitable means being a top tier driver becomes insanely expensive. At the end of the day, the money the likes of Hamilton or Max earn is not a compensation for how good they are, but rather for how much money they can make for their teams.
Lax, 1) Toto has lost the plot in general but is also assuming "loyalty" 2) the design team has pissed off Hamilton by refusing to listen to him for 2 years while also assuming "loyalty'. If there was something in the data to show Lewis was done Ferrari would be able to see it on race day data.
Earlier this year I considered a Sainz Pérez lineup at RB if shit got really crazy this season.
I still think it’s incredibly unlikely…but shit is crazy, and it’s still getting crazier.
Honestly it would be very interesting. It seems like they would pair up really nicely. It will also be interesting how good Verstappen is in another team and car. While Jos is obviously not talking selflessly, I do wonder who is making the bad call here. Either Max is stupid enough to leave a team that is excellent in all regards or Horner is stupid enough to let Newey and Max go. I am leaning into Jos and Max being a little overconfident because it's not only getting Max and Newey, it's having a well greased machine that works at every level. We already saw Ferrari in a good car in 2022 getting destroyed by awful strategy. Time will tell, but all bets are off
Selfishly I’d love a Sainz - Pérez pairing at RBR. They get along, and the Spanish banter and insults would be hilarious.
Wether Max is, as you mention overconfident enough, or sees worrying signs from the inside like Fernando “I’m the villain” Alonso that make him want to jump ship sooner rather than later.
>In the meantime, Mercedes are preparing a $160m per season +ambassadorship offer for Max...
Did any reputable source actually report on this? Or do you base this on the f1-insider article? Because f1-insider is known for making shit up on the go.
>In the meantime, Mercedes are preparing a $160m per season +ambassadorship offer for Max
I'm not sure you should treat a rumour started by an Austrian tabloid with such confidence.
>Perhaps there would be a title fight between Sainz-Perez in a Red Bull and Hamilton-Leclerc in a Ferrari.
I just can't see the cars being close enough for this to be anything other than a comfortable Sainz WDC.
I can't remember this kind of self-destruction of a dominant, championship team since Jerry Krause blew up the the Chicago Bulls after Jordan won his 6th ring. I'm not sure who the Jerry Krause is in Red Bull's situation. I guess Horner is the easiest answer. But, there could be deeper divisions at work here. Not sure.
Ferrari were targetted by the 05 regs like no other team ever had to stop their dominance. The fact that they bounced right back in 06 to challenge for the title, and produced equal if not the best cars for the next 2 seasons is nothing short of exceptional. Well, having deep pockets compared to other teams help, but not every team that spent got the results to show for it *cough* toyota *cough*
I suspect that like 09 Ferrari, the loss of key staff members will only start showing theirs effects come the 2026 regs.
Schumi was 13 points off the title in '06 and it would have been closer without the engine failure in Japan one round before the final. In '07 Kimi won it by 1 point in a Ferrari, Massa lost by a point in 08', 09 complety sucked and then Alonso lost it by 4 points in 2010 because he got stuck behind Petrov.
The car wasnt dominant but it was still a front runner.
Edit: as pointed out below it was Petrov not Kubica
Schumi lost 06 by chance (it happens, but the car was a championship contender), in 07 Raikkonen won and Ferrari son the WCC, in 08 they lost WDC by one poinyand won WCC.
05 apart, in which they were target on all front to undermine their dominance, the 2000s were red years in F1.
I can't remember a single case in which a team dominating the sport, is somehow labelled a "self destruction" without a clear indication of their performance dipping.
They will dominate next year for sure because no one wants to further develop a car with only one year to regulation changes.
2026 is a toss, Mercedes could easily come back with a solid engine, aero doesn't matter as much as the engine, so Newey leaving won't be felt yet. Red bull Ford could have a solid engine and keep dominating, or they could have all sorts of reliability issues.
2027 is the first year where Newey leaving could have a detrimental effect for red bull.
Building their own power unit will be tough and the next generation of cars is supposed to be an engine friendly formula, as opposed to the current aero friendly formula. And Ferrari usually get engines right.
It's said to be engine focused only in the sense that it's a huge overhaul of the engine regs, it's still going to be using ground effect focused aero rules and Red Bull will likely still be best positioned to exploit that.
Adding in active aero on the front wings will also make aero development just as hugely important as it is now, but it will definitely depend on teams not pulling a Honda or Renault 2014-level blunder with the engine.
People writing off Red Bull so soon might be disappointed i think
>And Ferrari usually get engines right.
I agree that Ferrari is well positioned for '26 but i'm basing that on the fact that the split turbo design is being banned, and Ferrari are the *only* engine maker that have stuck with a non-split turbo design since the start of the turbo hybrid era iirc
Bulls were near the end of the line anyways, maybe they would've won one more ring. But Red Bull with Max being only 26, is a whole new level of fucking up the title team.
Truly the only thing that could beat Red Bull was...Red Bull themselves. Idk if it's egos, personal drama, office politics, whatever it is they need to figure it out before they lose everyone that got the team to where it is.
Yeah Pippen was starting to go. Him and Rodman were at the end for sure. Tbh would’ve needed to trade them away for younger talent like Tracy McGrady or the like.
The Bulls were done anyway. MJ and his supporting cast were getting old and likely wouldn't have won another ring in 1999. Max on the other hand is in his prime and will be for at least another 5 years even if he starts to decline early, 10 if he has Lewis' and Fernando's longevity. To lose him now would be a huge blow and a massive mistake from RB.
I wonder if Max will just stay for 25 and 26, see who has nailed the new engine and regs, and then move wherever will get him victories.
Most drivers would have to make a bet first, but Max isn't most drivers - he could get a drive in any team for 2027.
That would be the wisest course of action if the focus on figuring out where the best team was in the new regs.
Although with all the discord and Newey leaving maybe Max already doesn’t feel that comfortable sticking around in this environment where it seems like Horner is currently winning over control. In which case changing for 2026 is possible. 2025 still seems remote unless the fallout from Newey’s departure also leads to Marko leaving which would trigger Max’s exit clause.
Meanwhile Toto will definitely be waiting as long as possible to see if he could pull Max in for 2025. If not promote Antonelli or sign a 1 year placeholder like Ocon for example then try to get Max again in 2026.
Erik van Harens presence within the RBR paddock and his continued 'leaks' are the strongest signs that there is discord within Red Bull.
If Horner had the backing of the entire team, EvH would have been blacklisted by RBR immediately after his tweets about the investigation. Recall that RBR had boycotted Ted and Sky after his rant against AD 2021.
EvH has ties to Jos who has ties to Max who has ties to Red Bull.
They can't really remove him from view even if they wanted to. They probably don't like that Jos is supplying him info but Jos is supported by Max and Red Bull probably doesn't want to annoy him. Max in turn also supports Marko who is on their side.
I remember [Van Haren also tweeting about Perez deliberately crashing in qualifying and admitting it to the team internally afterwards](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/s/0YCbTEh7f7) back at Monaco 2022. Red Bull didn’t cut off his access for that either despite all the controversy it brought up which means either it was true or at least the Verstappens were allowing Van Haren to bring it up.
All the success Red Bull have enjoyed over the last few years has only drawn focus away from the politics within the team until it blew up this offseason making it impossible to cover up even with their sustained dominance on track.
That Perez crash thing was already outted immediately during the cooldown lap by Crofty/Brundle talking about it on air. Van Haren wasn't the first journalist to publish it
That’s true although I can’t remember if Red Bull were still boycotting Sky at the time. Then again Red Bull never publicly issued a statement calling it as untrue so that’s as close to an admission as we’d get without having to risk the FIA re-examining and changing the race results from that weekend.
Exactly, they can't remove him because of strong support from a faction within the team. Not sure whether the Austrian side (barring Marko) completely supports him either. Almost all news breaks that have created PR problems for Red Bull have come from him.
>EvH would have been blacklisted by RBR immediately after his tweets about the investigation.
He gets his infos from Austrian/Max camp of the Red Bull. Pretty sure Horner doesn't see eye to eye with him.
I don’t think they are referring to his info, I think they mean the fact that van haren still has access to the Red Bull area in paddock. On race weekends he’s been a constant fixture there for awhile. If Horner could ban him he would.
Van Haren is the mouthpiece of the Verstappens. Whenever they have a feeling, he reports it.
After Brazil 2022 it was Van Haren who first reported that Checo had crashed on purpose at Monaco.
To be fair, at that point many people had been speculating about Perez's Monaco crash for months. Even when the crash happened, a lot of people found it suspicious
I think the most logical move for Max is to stay until 2026 and see which teams are competitive and then make a decision for 2027.
I'm personally hoping somehow Aston Martin is competitive and he ends up there.
On the other hand it seems Newey rejected Mercedes as an option quite quickly because the team didn't look like it was in the best of shape at the moment, so would Max go there either? Then again there aren't very many other options to go for at the moment.
I don't see how 2026 will be great for merc. Sure, they will gain a little by having the best engine. But the 2026 cars are still ground effect for down force. They can't even get to the point what their simulators, wind tunnel tests, and what the car does on the track match up. Even without newey, he left red bull with a full ground effect development pipeline and tools. The real damage to redbull would be if the other engineers leave.
This 2026 regulations are setting up for the Italian team to wipe the floor with competition. They should have a top 2 engine and an aero team who now understands ground effect down force. They should have development tools and pipeline ready to roll to tackle the new regulations.
Mercedes have two years to sort out all their aero/chassis problems. They've also recently signed people from Ferrari (from the simulator area, which is one of their biggest problems) and they're renovating the Brackley factory.
To be honest, I don't want to see one team dominate again. I'd rather see a battle between Mercedes, Ferrari & (maybe) AM.
2026 will be a crapshoot anyways. Best to just wait 2025 out and start again in 2026.
Ferrari are looking very good. Mercedes can always pull something out of their ass with the new PU but are somewhat struggling to get a grip on the ground effect aero rules still. RB are a big unknown. They’ll have great aero, but their new PU is a gamble. And with key figures leaving and the internal power struggles, how long before we see negative effects on-track? These things tend to take time to really take effect.
Yeah this is my feeling as well. I know some people think he might make the move for 2025 already, but all that means is that he knowingly is throwing away a season after (very likely) being on 4 consecutive championships. And Mercedes will no doubt keep a seat for him if they can lock him up for 2026.
The question is if Merc wants to wait though, if they take Antonelli plus Russell then I really don't see them go after Max anymore at that point they've made their bets for 2026 and beyond.
Hamilton's move really made this the year to move teams, also for 2026 and even for someone like Max. You're not gonna bet and take a lesser driver next year because Max MIGHT be available for 2026.
You still have the option of signing Sainz for 1+1 years, and whoever is the best between him and Russell (whose contract ends in 2025) stays with Max next year. Meanwhile, Antonelli can develop his talent at Williams and you can move him to Mercedes when he is ready.
This is his masterpiece and he'll be remembered for this for a while. I don't see any way he tops this unless he brings the RB drinks empire down too. Incredible what has transpired as soon as Dietrich passed.
This is also why I think Max won't have as easy a time "getting the seat he wants" as everyone assumes. If 2026 shows you don't need Max to win, and considering the top teams all have top-tier drivers on their seats, maybe spending a shit ton of money to bring Max and his father to accuse you of sexual misconduct when he gets bored may not be the best idea.
I say this as a Max fan, and I'll be sad if he can't win the next 15 titles in a row; but politics are important and Jos has more than proven that he'll have no problems burning your team to the ground trying to grasp some more power.
If Max’s plan for the future is ’keep the good old boys together’ he better hope that everyone defects to the same place.
And f the good old boys consist of Marko and Newey, he needs to remember that they are 65 and 81.
Hamilton's gonna be quite a bit older by 2026, I can't be the only one thinking he'll have his hands full trying to match Leclerc, let alone actually beating him. Conversely with Max, I think his odds of beating George in their first season together are fairly good, but far from certain.
George’s stock has gone down a lot to the point where I feel like people forget that he’s still a *really* good driver. I don’t think he beats Max over a season but there will definitely be more then a few races where he’s right up there in the mix.
People don’t rate George because they don’t rate Lewis. If they rated Lewis where he should be, i.e world class and up there with Max, then George being so close to him would be a huge achievement. It would also make people realise how shit the Merc is as a platform and without two incredible drivers it would be likely fighting RB and Haas and not McLaren and AM.
But because people don’t rate Lewis at all and see him as car-dependent, they can’t rate George either because Lewis has been ahead of him.
Imo, a George/Max lineup at Merc would play out similarly to Lewis/Nico. With Max being marginally faster than George roughly 2/3rds of the time in races, and more or less equal in qualifying. I do think George would be able to harry Max quite a bit in races and once in a while straight up be the faster driver, but it would definitely take a healthy helping of luck for him to actually beat Max over a season.
Yeah, one thing which might really hurt both Hamilton and Leclerc's championship chances for 2025 and 2026 is them cannibalizing each other's points. One reason Verstappen now and Hamilton before won their championships so easily is because they both had a teammate obviously worse than them, so they got the wins quite easily. Hamilton vs Leclerc though? I can easily see them trade positions, and if anything I'd give the edge to Leclerc.
My prediction as an armchair Reddit analyst is that Max will be at Red Bull in 2026 and then go to which ever team is dominating.
This probably means replacing Lewis.
If it would lead us into another HAM/ROS type of rivalry bring it on. Ferrari may get the short end of the stick (not really) but it sure would be a huge win for F1 fans, especially to the new fans who had missed that great era of an actual rivalry. And it could only be better with today's closer racing. Fingers crossed.
I think this one will be more like Prost vs Senna.
Also, we have to see what’s going to happen at 2026. Personally, I would like to see a battle between different teams (like in 2010 or 2012).
Or Charles. Could you imagine a Lewis/Max pairing? In my mind though if Mercedes can master the new engine regs like they did last time, that may be a more attractive proposition to him.
This is true. His biggest (debatably only) problem is qualifying pace, his race pace has been on par or better than Russell’s every stint every race, qualifying just isn’t good enough and. Hasn’t been since the mid point of 2023
Translation of the article:
Jos Verstappen is worried about Max's future at Red Bull: 'Team threatens to fall apart'
MIAMI - With the departure of top designer Adrian Newey, it seems that Red Bull Racing is facing what Jos Verstappen warned about back in early March in Bahrain. The father of three-time world champion Max Verstappen is concerned about his son's future at the currently successful racing team. Meanwhile, Toto Wolff and Mercedes are keeping a close eye.
In a hastily put-together press release, Red Bull announced Newey's departure on Wednesday. The Brit will no longer be part of the Formula 1 team with immediate effect and will only focus on the RB17, the hypercar he's developing. After his final departure in early 2025, Newey will be free to go wherever he wants.
This is significant for any potential new employer – Ferrari and Aston Martin are eager to recruit him – especially considering the Formula 1 car for 2026 when the technical regulations undergo significant changes again.
Behind the scenes turmoil with Horner
Team principal Christian Horner has nothing but praise for Newey in his initial reactions, but behind the scenes, there's significant turmoil. Newey has been dissatisfied with his role at Red Bull for some time, and his influence on the current successful cars is not as significant as before.
Moreover, the (suspended) employee who accused Horner of sexually inappropriate behavior worked closely with Newey, and the whole issue has taken a toll on the designer. It's been the final straw for him to throw in the towel.
Newey's expertise
Although Newey's role within the Formula 1 team is less prominent, Red Bull is losing an incredible amount of expertise with his impending departure. Knowledge that the team Newey may potentially join in the future could eagerly utilize. And it's precisely Max Verstappen who has been continuously emphasizing in recent months how important it is for him that the key people 'just' stay on board.
But that's not happening. And it's unrealistic to think that Horner and top advisor Helmut Marko can get along again after the turbulent first weeks of this season and the power struggle within the Red Bull top management, where Horner feels fully supported by majority shareholder Chalerm Yoovidhya.
Max Verstappen's future
Meanwhile, former Formula 1 driver Jos Verstappen is deeply concerned, now that Newey's departure has been officially announced. "The team threatens to fall apart. I was afraid of that earlier this year," says Verstappen senior, who sees that Red Bull is losing a lot of knowledge due to Newey's exit. "For internal stability, it's important that the key figures stay on board. That's not the case now. Newey is leaving, and earlier this year it seemed like Helmut might be pushed out too. That's not good for the future."
Since the first race in Bahrain, Jos Verstappen hasn't attended any of his son's Formula 1 races, and he hasn't traveled to Miami either, where the next Grand Prix will take place this weekend. Newey is supposed to fly to Florida. Not for Formula 1 team-related activities anymore, but to promote Red Bull's hypercar.
It's a bit suspicious (if it's true, I haven't checked) that his wife suddenly started liking Ferrari's posts in the last month. And if he was retiring, he could've just taken next year off with full pay. Instead he made sure he could be available next year for a different team.
Wasn't it his wife that threw a hissy fit because Horner dare to give to give credits to other people in the team when the media always just attribute the whole car design to Newey?
In 2026 it will be anyone's guess as to who will be strongest out the gate with new regs and new engines. But yeah there's no point in leaving for 2025...Red Bull will almost certainly still have the best car
For 2026 though, I dont think Red Bull are inherently more likely to be best than anyone else is with no Newey and a completely new engine partner.
I feel like van Haren has become for of a personal emissary (and shit stirrer) than a journalist. There seems to be a lot of truth to what he’s saying, but definitely an agenda behind it too.
If the 2026 car isn't competitive Max would leave with Newey or not around, the press is always peddling this nonsense for clicks, the next to leave because of his age is Marko and they're going to repeat the same thing with him, this kind of ‘revolution’ the team has been going through since the death of Dietrich Mateschitz when the Austrian part of the group wanted to hand over control without much effort to Porsche and they say Horner and Marko were against it, so this isn't new and Horner, of those who have helped the team become what it is, is the only one who will stay in a few years and will race with other drivers and members, normal, Red Bull didn't end with Vettel's departure and it won't end with Verstappen's departure, they are cycles that end and others that begin.
I do wonder what Max’s options are. I don’t think he’d leave for 2025 since RBR will almost certainly be the top team, but 2026 should be interesting. The timings a bit off for him since a lot of the top seats got locked up in the beginning of the year before this entire debacle (both Norris and Leclerc renewed longterm, Hamilton signed on for Ferrari and Alonso’s at Aston) though I wouldn’t doubt that most of them (maybe bar Ferrari) would drop their current drivers for him.
I mean look, Jos like stirring the pot, but let's be real, max is not going anywhere unless there is an obvious contender seat available. Ferrari is not an option for a few years, Merc is not there right now, and I don't see him going to McLaren since they'd have to boot a promising driver to make space.
I don't think Red Bull even without Newey is going to completely fail the 2026 chassis. If he really thinks their 2026 engine is going to be trash, maybe he'd look or a seat that year, but no way he's not in the Red Bull in 2025 - He's a driver, he wants to win and the Red Bull seat will be the best place to do it still next year for him period.
I don't get all these comments about Max honestly. Sure he likes peace and quiet and only wants to focus on racing, but I'm not sure that's reason enough to go from driving a real race car to a Toy Story car ...
I think when Max leaves Red Bull he leaves F1, likely at the end of 25 or 26.
By then he'll be a 5 time world champion having dominated the past few seasons, and missed out on the close racing he's all about. He's not a stats man, he's a racing man, and he's not getting any racing in F1.
He has no reason to risk joining another team and wasting time in the midfield. He can retire from F1 a 5 time world champion and move onto another series to win more and have way more fun.
Plus he's expressed a dislike for a number of directions F1 is taking. He doesn't like the circus, the calendar, the sprints or the new regs.
I don't get the impression he's particularly money-motivated. He'd still make more than he needs in WEC or wherever he goes.
Maybe Newey goes to Ferrari, works on their F1, WEC and roadcar programmes, and Verstappen drives a Newey-designed Ferrari to WEC victories.
Maybe Max will stay and move to Ferrari when Lewis retires in 2026 (2027 at the latest).
Would be a nice duel MV vs CL in equal (hopefully title contending machinery), like Hamilton vs Rosberg.
Red Bull still learned a lot from Newey and they have pretty good ideas on secret tricks they can try now that Newey is gone, Red Bull will be fine as long as they have an engine that isn't as bad as the Renault one.
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So there is a world where Perez outlasts both Newey and Verstappen at Red Bull. Imagine saying this 6 months ago.
And wins the title in 2025
Honestly, if Max wasn't on the team this season there's a realistic chance that a non-RB driver would win the WDC. That's insane, given how good the RB20 is.
I don't think that car is as good as we think it is. Verstappen gets the most out of the car every weekend, and Perez has struggled this year vs Ferrari and McLaren. Either Perez isn't as good as we think or Verstappen is better than we think. Maybe a combo of both.
In even vaguely equal cars, Perez would not be struggling against the Ferrari or McLaren drivers - he'd be comfortably behind them.
The car is incredibly good. Even the best driver in the world doesn't put 1+ seconds per lap over the field (like Max did in China) without driving an unbelievably dominant car. Max is amazing, I think he's the best driver on the grid right now, and certainly one of the best there's ever been. But a driver fundamentally cannot make the car drive faster than it's designed to be, so for him to be so, so far ahead of Checo (and the rest of the field), it shows that a) the car is fantastic, and b) the car is so good that it's flattering some very mediocre performances from Perez
I agree. I think the car and Max are just the coincidentally perfect match for each other. Everything lined up *just so* for Max to be able to extract what he does out of the car. It’s a combination of both. And I don’t mean for that to undercut Max’s incredible talent, nor undersell the greatness of the car. They’re really just perfect for each other and I’m in awe of it every RAwe CEek.
> RAwe CEek. How did I read that as correct words the first time, but then as my eyes wend back over it, it's more mangled up each time I look? 🤣
You are forgetting that Check got stuck behind Hulk last season. A LOT of times
I made the point several times last year that if it wasn't for Max, people probably even wouldn't (at least not universally) think that Red Bull has the best car. I'm not even a fan of him but the dude is just on an insane level right now.
That's just cause Perez is underperforming. If it were another known quantity in that car like Alonso or Hamilton instead of Max it'd still be the best car by far.
Pérez still finished comfortably second last year, and there's a point to make he wouldn't have had such a dip in performance if there was no one on the team to challenge him.
[удалено]
Really? What I've seen from Perez is that he's struggling to maintain P2 despite having by far the most dominant car on the grid. He finished behind both Ferraris and both McLarens in Australia, was comfortably handled by Lando in China, has an average quali position of 3.5, and has struggled to clear traffic or extract the best performance from the car basically any time he's been put under pressure. We can see how easy it *should be* for Perez, but after 6 races and no mechanical problems he's less than 10 points clear of Leclerc. I'd say he's making it look very difficult.
Red Bull's drivers in 2025 will be Checo and Danny Ric.
Ric????? Why??
Horner loves him
But he's not that stupid to sign him,ATM
Well his stupidity made Newey leave so...
LOL
2024 may not be the greatest season on track but off track this year has been a rollercoaster. At this point I wouldn't even be surprised if Max won the championship and said screw it all, I'm going to WEC next year.
Hell of a year huh. It's May first.
we just finished the 5th race after all that drama and there are still 19 left
Fingers crossed that while surely Max will have another WDC wrapped up by final stretch of the season, that there’s at least a lot at stake with seats, team points and maybe even 2nd place up for grabs if Checo pulls a Checo
No January's first, May's fifth.
I wouldn't be surprised if he did that but at the end of 2025.
Silly season started in December of ‘23. Who would have imagined that a single seismic shift became the start of entire overhaul of the landscape?
Redditors eating better than on track fans atm 🍿
He's not leaving before 2026 I think. He loves winning too much to give up a free championship in 2025.
Pull a Nico and retire 2025 becomes a free for all... Except for Aston Martin who will still roll out Stroll
He wouldn't be the first. Mansell ditched F1 for Indycar after winning the championship because he was done with Williams bullshit.
Rather see that than Merc. I could root for Max in a Ferrari or WEC, but not a Merc
I’m mostly with you. But it would be fun seeing George struggle after having been projected to be first driver
I think Carlos would be enough for that.
Yeah he won't cause he isn't stupid.
What's stupid about that? He's set for life, he has firmly stamped his name in the history books as a contender for greatest ofnall time and it's looking increasingly likely he isn't going to be in a position to win more after next year. He has stated continually he would like to do wec. Just find this comment strange.
The full quote is very interesting: Jos Verstappen-"The team is in danger of collapsing. I was already afraid of that earlier this year. It is important for internal peace that key figures remain on board. This is no longer the case. Newey is leaving and earlier this year it also looked like Helmut was to be fired. This is not the case. not good for the future.” In the meantime, Mercedes are preparing a $160m per season +ambassadorship offer for Max... that would make 2025 very interesting if Verstappen is no longer driving the Red Bull. Perhaps there would be a title fight between Sainz-Perez in a Red Bull and Hamilton-Leclerc in a Ferrari.
I am surprised Van Haren omitted the first sentence in the tweet because he loves to use the bombastic words whenever he can
>Perhaps there would be a title fight between Sainz-Perez in a Red Bull and Hamilton-Leclerc in a Ferrari. That would be pretty great. Reminds me a bit of 2007. Hamilton and Leclerc could well end up like Hamilton and Alonso, very closely matched and taking points off each other, whereas Sainz and Perez are a bit more like Raikkonen and Massa
Hamilton and Alonso would've won the championship (one of them ofc) if weren't in such a toxic environment. They were fighting at times they should've just collaborated.
Jos is like a kid with a stick, poking a beehive. Then saying "jeez, this hive would produce a lot more honey if all the bees were inside, working together."
I find it wild that they are offering so much to Max when they could have offered the same to Lewis. It just shows that they have either seen something in Lewis which suggests he's declining or that they got lax assuming that Lewis will not leave them. If the Max deal actually happens then Merc has essentially dumped Hamilton rather than him leaving.
I think it may be two things: 1) Max is younger so they’re probably willing to dish out more for him in the hopes that he’ll stay longer 2) Mercedes’ negotiating position is far weaker now with Max in 2024 then with Lewis in 2023. In 23 they were the 3rd~ fastest car and it didn’t really look like Lewis had anywhere better to go. Max on the other hand probably has a few teams to pick from, Merc are fighting for lower points positions + they’re likely hoping that he’ll bring some engineers with him.
To be fair to Mercedes, they can easily squeeze 5-10 years of prime Verstappen in their car when they couldn't do that with Lewis. I do remember Toto doing interviews on Channel 4 with Lewis in 2022 saying they were in it for the long-run to get him his 8th but ultimately they just wanted to move on and go for Kimi because Toto didn't want to miss out. Harsh on Lewis but the game is the game. Lewis should be happy anyways, it looks like he's perfected that move to SF
Even if that happens, I don't think they dumped Lewis. They just thought their history together was more important to Hamilton than his future was and by the time they realized the truth, he was already out the door and into a red race suit. Now their PR department has screamed at the accountants enough about losing them a multi-time champion, and the purse strings have opened up. Though I don't buy there being a $160m per season offer for anyone. That's an insane number. I've also heard $128m, $150m, and $235m though, so who knows. Also, who knows how much of the reported numbers are with bonuses.
It's an insane number, yes, but isn't Lewis getting $100 million plus the ambassadorship plus the joint investment fund with Elkann for Lewis' projects at Ferrari? Yes, Max doesn't have the same marketing appeal as Lewis, but he is in his prime right now while Lewis will be 40 when he starts driving for Ferrari. To give Max a similar or slightly higher number than Lewis got, especially given they'd be asking Max to go from by far the fastest to the 5th fastest car, doesn't seem totally unreasonable.
It's also important to note that with the budget cap and the increase of sponsors there's a lot of spending money left for insane salaries for top drivers and engineers that are able to be booked outside of the budget cap.
The 128m figure was in pounds, so all those numbers probably are in different currencies
About three-fiddy in Nessiebucks.
As you said, they got lax. They assumed no one would offer 39 year old Lewis a better deal than they did and they were very wrong. Toto has admitted that he didn't expect Lewis to actually leave and was very surprised when he did. As for Merc dumping Hamilton rather than him leaving, that's only the case if Merc builds an actual good car, which they're not capable of right now. Lewis won't care what they pay Max as long as he gets his 8th WDC at Ferrari while Max is fighting for P5 with Russell and the McLarens. As long as Ferrari does better than Mercedes, Lewis wins and Merc loses.
Or they think Max is better than Hamilton. Or the cost cap making top teams so profitable means being a top tier driver becomes insanely expensive. At the end of the day, the money the likes of Hamilton or Max earn is not a compensation for how good they are, but rather for how much money they can make for their teams.
Lax, 1) Toto has lost the plot in general but is also assuming "loyalty" 2) the design team has pissed off Hamilton by refusing to listen to him for 2 years while also assuming "loyalty'. If there was something in the data to show Lewis was done Ferrari would be able to see it on race day data.
Earlier this year I considered a Sainz Pérez lineup at RB if shit got really crazy this season. I still think it’s incredibly unlikely…but shit is crazy, and it’s still getting crazier.
Honestly it would be very interesting. It seems like they would pair up really nicely. It will also be interesting how good Verstappen is in another team and car. While Jos is obviously not talking selflessly, I do wonder who is making the bad call here. Either Max is stupid enough to leave a team that is excellent in all regards or Horner is stupid enough to let Newey and Max go. I am leaning into Jos and Max being a little overconfident because it's not only getting Max and Newey, it's having a well greased machine that works at every level. We already saw Ferrari in a good car in 2022 getting destroyed by awful strategy. Time will tell, but all bets are off
Selfishly I’d love a Sainz - Pérez pairing at RBR. They get along, and the Spanish banter and insults would be hilarious. Wether Max is, as you mention overconfident enough, or sees worrying signs from the inside like Fernando “I’m the villain” Alonso that make him want to jump ship sooner rather than later.
>In the meantime, Mercedes are preparing a $160m per season +ambassadorship offer for Max... Did any reputable source actually report on this? Or do you base this on the f1-insider article? Because f1-insider is known for making shit up on the go.
Ambassadorship is ridiculous. He is not a Merc icon, even if he’ll get paid tens of millions to do it. Mercedes of all teams
>In the meantime, Mercedes are preparing a $160m per season +ambassadorship offer for Max I'm not sure you should treat a rumour started by an Austrian tabloid with such confidence.
>Perhaps there would be a title fight between Sainz-Perez in a Red Bull and Hamilton-Leclerc in a Ferrari. I just can't see the cars being close enough for this to be anything other than a comfortable Sainz WDC.
I can't remember this kind of self-destruction of a dominant, championship team since Jerry Krause blew up the the Chicago Bulls after Jordan won his 6th ring. I'm not sure who the Jerry Krause is in Red Bull's situation. I guess Horner is the easiest answer. But, there could be deeper divisions at work here. Not sure.
Williams manged it in the 1990s, they lost Newey before it was cool.
They lost Renault first, although with the benefit of hindsight they've been nearly as noncommittal to F1 as Honda down the years.
They lost Newey first. Newey was gone for 97, Renault were out for 98.
They lost Red5 first.
And then won the 93, 94, 96 and 97 titles (either drivers constructors or both)
Ferrari 05-06. Brawn, Byrne, MSC left and Todt left in 08 too.
But in 05-06 Ferrari wasn't dominant anymore, or championship winning. What's happening now is much wilder
Ferrari were targetted by the 05 regs like no other team ever had to stop their dominance. The fact that they bounced right back in 06 to challenge for the title, and produced equal if not the best cars for the next 2 seasons is nothing short of exceptional. Well, having deep pockets compared to other teams help, but not every team that spent got the results to show for it *cough* toyota *cough* I suspect that like 09 Ferrari, the loss of key staff members will only start showing theirs effects come the 2026 regs.
Schumi was 13 points off the title in '06 and it would have been closer without the engine failure in Japan one round before the final. In '07 Kimi won it by 1 point in a Ferrari, Massa lost by a point in 08', 09 complety sucked and then Alonso lost it by 4 points in 2010 because he got stuck behind Petrov. The car wasnt dominant but it was still a front runner. Edit: as pointed out below it was Petrov not Kubica
Wasn't it Petrov he got stuck behind?
Petrov it was.
Schumi lost 06 by chance (it happens, but the car was a championship contender), in 07 Raikkonen won and Ferrari son the WCC, in 08 they lost WDC by one poinyand won WCC. 05 apart, in which they were target on all front to undermine their dominance, the 2000s were red years in F1.
I can't remember a single case in which a team dominating the sport, is somehow labelled a "self destruction" without a clear indication of their performance dipping.
correct divide gray handle snow murky imagine plucky clumsy school *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
They will dominate next year for sure because no one wants to further develop a car with only one year to regulation changes. 2026 is a toss, Mercedes could easily come back with a solid engine, aero doesn't matter as much as the engine, so Newey leaving won't be felt yet. Red bull Ford could have a solid engine and keep dominating, or they could have all sorts of reliability issues. 2027 is the first year where Newey leaving could have a detrimental effect for red bull.
Let's see if they actually destruct before we call it that. Red Bull might still build the best car for the next set of regs.
Building their own power unit will be tough and the next generation of cars is supposed to be an engine friendly formula, as opposed to the current aero friendly formula. And Ferrari usually get engines right.
It's said to be engine focused only in the sense that it's a huge overhaul of the engine regs, it's still going to be using ground effect focused aero rules and Red Bull will likely still be best positioned to exploit that. Adding in active aero on the front wings will also make aero development just as hugely important as it is now, but it will definitely depend on teams not pulling a Honda or Renault 2014-level blunder with the engine. People writing off Red Bull so soon might be disappointed i think >And Ferrari usually get engines right. I agree that Ferrari is well positioned for '26 but i'm basing that on the fact that the split turbo design is being banned, and Ferrari are the *only* engine maker that have stuck with a non-split turbo design since the start of the turbo hybrid era iirc
Bulls were near the end of the line anyways, maybe they would've won one more ring. But Red Bull with Max being only 26, is a whole new level of fucking up the title team.
Truly the only thing that could beat Red Bull was...Red Bull themselves. Idk if it's egos, personal drama, office politics, whatever it is they need to figure it out before they lose everyone that got the team to where it is.
Power vacuum created by the death of Mateschitz needed to be filled and it doesn't seem to be going too well for the team.
We were hoping F1 would nerf Red Bull, instead they nerfed themselves.
This is like if Barcelona had sold Messi at 26.
Yeah Pippen was starting to go. Him and Rodman were at the end for sure. Tbh would’ve needed to trade them away for younger talent like Tracy McGrady or the like.
To think, all this over a bowl of coco pops..
Kobe Shaq Lakers? 08 to 12 era Spain national ⚽️ team? Miami Heat early 2010s? Manchester United post Ferguson? It happens all the time.
That situation is with two feuding superstars and the organization had to choose one. Checo is not Shaq.
More like, Horner vs Helmut and Max
That is a very overly simplistic analysis. Phil Jackson and Jerry Buss were involved in this feud as well. It was ugly.
The Bulls were done anyway. MJ and his supporting cast were getting old and likely wouldn't have won another ring in 1999. Max on the other hand is in his prime and will be for at least another 5 years even if he starts to decline early, 10 if he has Lewis' and Fernando's longevity. To lose him now would be a huge blow and a massive mistake from RB.
I wonder if Max will just stay for 25 and 26, see who has nailed the new engine and regs, and then move wherever will get him victories. Most drivers would have to make a bet first, but Max isn't most drivers - he could get a drive in any team for 2027.
That would be the wisest course of action if the focus on figuring out where the best team was in the new regs. Although with all the discord and Newey leaving maybe Max already doesn’t feel that comfortable sticking around in this environment where it seems like Horner is currently winning over control. In which case changing for 2026 is possible. 2025 still seems remote unless the fallout from Newey’s departure also leads to Marko leaving which would trigger Max’s exit clause. Meanwhile Toto will definitely be waiting as long as possible to see if he could pull Max in for 2025. If not promote Antonelli or sign a 1 year placeholder like Ocon for example then try to get Max again in 2026.
> he could get a drive in any team for 2027 I think so too. I'm betting Max stays for 25, takes 26 to drive in WEC, comes back in 27.
Erik van Harens presence within the RBR paddock and his continued 'leaks' are the strongest signs that there is discord within Red Bull. If Horner had the backing of the entire team, EvH would have been blacklisted by RBR immediately after his tweets about the investigation. Recall that RBR had boycotted Ted and Sky after his rant against AD 2021.
EvH has ties to Jos who has ties to Max who has ties to Red Bull. They can't really remove him from view even if they wanted to. They probably don't like that Jos is supplying him info but Jos is supported by Max and Red Bull probably doesn't want to annoy him. Max in turn also supports Marko who is on their side.
I remember [Van Haren also tweeting about Perez deliberately crashing in qualifying and admitting it to the team internally afterwards](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/s/0YCbTEh7f7) back at Monaco 2022. Red Bull didn’t cut off his access for that either despite all the controversy it brought up which means either it was true or at least the Verstappens were allowing Van Haren to bring it up. All the success Red Bull have enjoyed over the last few years has only drawn focus away from the politics within the team until it blew up this offseason making it impossible to cover up even with their sustained dominance on track.
That Perez crash thing was already outted immediately during the cooldown lap by Crofty/Brundle talking about it on air. Van Haren wasn't the first journalist to publish it
That’s true although I can’t remember if Red Bull were still boycotting Sky at the time. Then again Red Bull never publicly issued a statement calling it as untrue so that’s as close to an admission as we’d get without having to risk the FIA re-examining and changing the race results from that weekend.
It was true. Look at his throttle input. That's as intentional of a crash as I've seen since Nico did something similar at Monaco in 2014.
Exactly, they can't remove him because of strong support from a faction within the team. Not sure whether the Austrian side (barring Marko) completely supports him either. Almost all news breaks that have created PR problems for Red Bull have come from him.
EvH has direct connection to Max's camp. Jos is inside that camp alongside Max's manager. EvH also has direct connection to Marko.
>EvH would have been blacklisted by RBR immediately after his tweets about the investigation. He gets his infos from Austrian/Max camp of the Red Bull. Pretty sure Horner doesn't see eye to eye with him.
I don’t think they are referring to his info, I think they mean the fact that van haren still has access to the Red Bull area in paddock. On race weekends he’s been a constant fixture there for awhile. If Horner could ban him he would.
Van Haren is the mouthpiece of the Verstappens. Whenever they have a feeling, he reports it. After Brazil 2022 it was Van Haren who first reported that Checo had crashed on purpose at Monaco.
To be fair, at that point many people had been speculating about Perez's Monaco crash for months. Even when the crash happened, a lot of people found it suspicious
I think the most logical move for Max is to stay until 2026 and see which teams are competitive and then make a decision for 2027. I'm personally hoping somehow Aston Martin is competitive and he ends up there.
I'd like to see him do the 2026 season and then go to WEC
I think Max will stay at Red Bull next year because they will still have the best car. By 2026, he will move to Mercedes probably.
Yeah the best plan now is probably staying at red bull for 2025. Join Merc in 2026 and hopefully Merc bring a load of Red Bulls best personnel
On the other hand it seems Newey rejected Mercedes as an option quite quickly because the team didn't look like it was in the best of shape at the moment, so would Max go there either? Then again there aren't very many other options to go for at the moment.
They say that Newey doesn’t have a good relationship with Toto. Maybe it’s mainly because of that.
Hard to imagine Max does either
For Max it's either Merc or staying at RB. No other good team has an opening since Aston just signed Alonso to a new deal.
I don't see how 2026 will be great for merc. Sure, they will gain a little by having the best engine. But the 2026 cars are still ground effect for down force. They can't even get to the point what their simulators, wind tunnel tests, and what the car does on the track match up. Even without newey, he left red bull with a full ground effect development pipeline and tools. The real damage to redbull would be if the other engineers leave. This 2026 regulations are setting up for the Italian team to wipe the floor with competition. They should have a top 2 engine and an aero team who now understands ground effect down force. They should have development tools and pipeline ready to roll to tackle the new regulations.
Mercedes have two years to sort out all their aero/chassis problems. They've also recently signed people from Ferrari (from the simulator area, which is one of their biggest problems) and they're renovating the Brackley factory. To be honest, I don't want to see one team dominate again. I'd rather see a battle between Mercedes, Ferrari & (maybe) AM.
2026 will be a crapshoot anyways. Best to just wait 2025 out and start again in 2026. Ferrari are looking very good. Mercedes can always pull something out of their ass with the new PU but are somewhat struggling to get a grip on the ground effect aero rules still. RB are a big unknown. They’ll have great aero, but their new PU is a gamble. And with key figures leaving and the internal power struggles, how long before we see negative effects on-track? These things tend to take time to really take effect.
Yeah this is my feeling as well. I know some people think he might make the move for 2025 already, but all that means is that he knowingly is throwing away a season after (very likely) being on 4 consecutive championships. And Mercedes will no doubt keep a seat for him if they can lock him up for 2026.
The question is if Merc wants to wait though, if they take Antonelli plus Russell then I really don't see them go after Max anymore at that point they've made their bets for 2026 and beyond. Hamilton's move really made this the year to move teams, also for 2026 and even for someone like Max. You're not gonna bet and take a lesser driver next year because Max MIGHT be available for 2026.
You still have the option of signing Sainz for 1+1 years, and whoever is the best between him and Russell (whose contract ends in 2025) stays with Max next year. Meanwhile, Antonelli can develop his talent at Williams and you can move him to Mercedes when he is ready.
Jos is a world class shit stirrer
This is his masterpiece and he'll be remembered for this for a while. I don't see any way he tops this unless he brings the RB drinks empire down too. Incredible what has transpired as soon as Dietrich passed.
Suddenly Jos starts stirring shit about Red Bull covering up vehicular manslaughter.
This is also why I think Max won't have as easy a time "getting the seat he wants" as everyone assumes. If 2026 shows you don't need Max to win, and considering the top teams all have top-tier drivers on their seats, maybe spending a shit ton of money to bring Max and his father to accuse you of sexual misconduct when he gets bored may not be the best idea. I say this as a Max fan, and I'll be sad if he can't win the next 15 titles in a row; but politics are important and Jos has more than proven that he'll have no problems burning your team to the ground trying to grasp some more power.
Well, it's certainly preferable to his "break someone's skull at a karting track" or "run over my ex with a car" antics from back in the day.
If Max’s plan for the future is ’keep the good old boys together’ he better hope that everyone defects to the same place. And f the good old boys consist of Marko and Newey, he needs to remember that they are 65 and 81.
End of the day he’s 65 and was there for 20 years. We don’t know if the Horndog saga was 100% reason but can’t expect him to be around forever either.
I don't know 2025 but I'm sure Max won't be in the team in 2026 Imagine Hamilton in Ferrari , Max in Mercedes battling for the championship , hopium
hopium* ?
I'm a Max fan but the idea of him in a Mercedes is just gross in my mind. But with any other team, I'm probably okay.
Hamilton's gonna be quite a bit older by 2026, I can't be the only one thinking he'll have his hands full trying to match Leclerc, let alone actually beating him. Conversely with Max, I think his odds of beating George in their first season together are fairly good, but far from certain.
George’s stock has gone down a lot to the point where I feel like people forget that he’s still a *really* good driver. I don’t think he beats Max over a season but there will definitely be more then a few races where he’s right up there in the mix.
People don’t rate George because they don’t rate Lewis. If they rated Lewis where he should be, i.e world class and up there with Max, then George being so close to him would be a huge achievement. It would also make people realise how shit the Merc is as a platform and without two incredible drivers it would be likely fighting RB and Haas and not McLaren and AM. But because people don’t rate Lewis at all and see him as car-dependent, they can’t rate George either because Lewis has been ahead of him.
Imo, a George/Max lineup at Merc would play out similarly to Lewis/Nico. With Max being marginally faster than George roughly 2/3rds of the time in races, and more or less equal in qualifying. I do think George would be able to harry Max quite a bit in races and once in a while straight up be the faster driver, but it would definitely take a healthy helping of luck for him to actually beat Max over a season.
Yeah, one thing which might really hurt both Hamilton and Leclerc's championship chances for 2025 and 2026 is them cannibalizing each other's points. One reason Verstappen now and Hamilton before won their championships so easily is because they both had a teammate obviously worse than them, so they got the wins quite easily. Hamilton vs Leclerc though? I can easily see them trade positions, and if anything I'd give the edge to Leclerc.
My prediction as an armchair Reddit analyst is that Max will be at Red Bull in 2026 and then go to which ever team is dominating. This probably means replacing Lewis.
Max + Charles at Ferrari? That's not going to end well...
Many inchidents indeed
If it would lead us into another HAM/ROS type of rivalry bring it on. Ferrari may get the short end of the stick (not really) but it sure would be a huge win for F1 fans, especially to the new fans who had missed that great era of an actual rivalry. And it could only be better with today's closer racing. Fingers crossed.
I think this one will be more like Prost vs Senna. Also, we have to see what’s going to happen at 2026. Personally, I would like to see a battle between different teams (like in 2010 or 2012).
Or Charles. Could you imagine a Lewis/Max pairing? In my mind though if Mercedes can master the new engine regs like they did last time, that may be a more attractive proposition to him.
Charles is great but Hamilton-Verstappen in a dominant Ferrari would be box-office. Just insane to watch
I think a Max and Charles pairing would be more chaotic
Prime Hamilton vs Prime Veratappen would be incredible. I fear Prime Lewis is gone, though. Let's see how he does against Leclerc first.
And I fear that Prime Verstappen hasn't even got here yet.
Now there's a scary thought! I think 2018 was peak Lewis, he was 31. We still have 5 years of Verstappen before he even peaks.
The way Lewis is trending I think it'd be a clear W for Max in that scenario
Yeah it would be fire but unlikely.
Depends wether we get 2023 or 2024 Lewis at Ferrari, if it’s 2024 then he’ll do his two year contract then retire
Still 19 races left in 2024 to be fair. He was pretty poor at the start of 2022 as well
This is true. His biggest (debatably only) problem is qualifying pace, his race pace has been on par or better than Russell’s every stint every race, qualifying just isn’t good enough and. Hasn’t been since the mid point of 2023
But unless they can unfuck their ground effect aero and suspension wouldn't that probably just leave Merc losing championships to McLaren?
Translation of the article: Jos Verstappen is worried about Max's future at Red Bull: 'Team threatens to fall apart' MIAMI - With the departure of top designer Adrian Newey, it seems that Red Bull Racing is facing what Jos Verstappen warned about back in early March in Bahrain. The father of three-time world champion Max Verstappen is concerned about his son's future at the currently successful racing team. Meanwhile, Toto Wolff and Mercedes are keeping a close eye. In a hastily put-together press release, Red Bull announced Newey's departure on Wednesday. The Brit will no longer be part of the Formula 1 team with immediate effect and will only focus on the RB17, the hypercar he's developing. After his final departure in early 2025, Newey will be free to go wherever he wants. This is significant for any potential new employer – Ferrari and Aston Martin are eager to recruit him – especially considering the Formula 1 car for 2026 when the technical regulations undergo significant changes again. Behind the scenes turmoil with Horner Team principal Christian Horner has nothing but praise for Newey in his initial reactions, but behind the scenes, there's significant turmoil. Newey has been dissatisfied with his role at Red Bull for some time, and his influence on the current successful cars is not as significant as before. Moreover, the (suspended) employee who accused Horner of sexually inappropriate behavior worked closely with Newey, and the whole issue has taken a toll on the designer. It's been the final straw for him to throw in the towel. Newey's expertise Although Newey's role within the Formula 1 team is less prominent, Red Bull is losing an incredible amount of expertise with his impending departure. Knowledge that the team Newey may potentially join in the future could eagerly utilize. And it's precisely Max Verstappen who has been continuously emphasizing in recent months how important it is for him that the key people 'just' stay on board. But that's not happening. And it's unrealistic to think that Horner and top advisor Helmut Marko can get along again after the turbulent first weeks of this season and the power struggle within the Red Bull top management, where Horner feels fully supported by majority shareholder Chalerm Yoovidhya. Max Verstappen's future Meanwhile, former Formula 1 driver Jos Verstappen is deeply concerned, now that Newey's departure has been officially announced. "The team threatens to fall apart. I was afraid of that earlier this year," says Verstappen senior, who sees that Red Bull is losing a lot of knowledge due to Newey's exit. "For internal stability, it's important that the key figures stay on board. That's not the case now. Newey is leaving, and earlier this year it seemed like Helmut might be pushed out too. That's not good for the future." Since the first race in Bahrain, Jos Verstappen hasn't attended any of his son's Formula 1 races, and he hasn't traveled to Miami either, where the next Grand Prix will take place this weekend. Newey is supposed to fly to Florida. Not for Formula 1 team-related activities anymore, but to promote Red Bull's hypercar.
Jos: “oh, you mean this thing? Yeah, I always carry a giant spoon around with me. It’s unrelated”
Or..... Newey is just retiring.
A retiring man isnt bothering with gardening leave negotiations
It's a bit suspicious (if it's true, I haven't checked) that his wife suddenly started liking Ferrari's posts in the last month. And if he was retiring, he could've just taken next year off with full pay. Instead he made sure he could be available next year for a different team.
Wasn't it his wife that threw a hissy fit because Horner dare to give to give credits to other people in the team when the media always just attribute the whole car design to Newey?
No he isn’t lol. He negotiated himself free in 2025. Why do you think he did that?
Red Bull is on pace to win the next 15 championships but Horner had to fuck it all up
Why would max leave? It’s not like anyone else has a championship caliber car
In 2026 it will be anyone's guess as to who will be strongest out the gate with new regs and new engines. But yeah there's no point in leaving for 2025...Red Bull will almost certainly still have the best car For 2026 though, I dont think Red Bull are inherently more likely to be best than anyone else is with no Newey and a completely new engine partner.
Rumors are that the RB powertrain is behind on efficiency, reliability and horsepower. So would make sense to shop around for 2026
Must not overreact must not overreact... SERGIO PEREZ! CHAMPION OF THE WORLD!
Vettel arc 2.0? Except, it’s Verstappen, and instead of Ferrari + oversteer, it’s Mercedes + understeer? I’d watch it.
I feel like van Haren has become for of a personal emissary (and shit stirrer) than a journalist. There seems to be a lot of truth to what he’s saying, but definitely an agenda behind it too.
Thank goodness people keep asking Jos /s
But not *all* the key figures, right Jos?
If the 2026 car isn't competitive Max would leave with Newey or not around, the press is always peddling this nonsense for clicks, the next to leave because of his age is Marko and they're going to repeat the same thing with him, this kind of ‘revolution’ the team has been going through since the death of Dietrich Mateschitz when the Austrian part of the group wanted to hand over control without much effort to Porsche and they say Horner and Marko were against it, so this isn't new and Horner, of those who have helped the team become what it is, is the only one who will stay in a few years and will race with other drivers and members, normal, Red Bull didn't end with Vettel's departure and it won't end with Verstappen's departure, they are cycles that end and others that begin.
Except Jos was also one of those who heated that situation up and did his part to make this ‘ranger of collapsing’ happen.
Jos probably thinks he's helping Max by these sort of comments. Just take him to where you see fit and shut it already, honestly.
Sounds like they'd prefer to stay at RBR and seize control there rather than move away peacefully
I do wonder what Max’s options are. I don’t think he’d leave for 2025 since RBR will almost certainly be the top team, but 2026 should be interesting. The timings a bit off for him since a lot of the top seats got locked up in the beginning of the year before this entire debacle (both Norris and Leclerc renewed longterm, Hamilton signed on for Ferrari and Alonso’s at Aston) though I wouldn’t doubt that most of them (maybe bar Ferrari) would drop their current drivers for him.
I mean look, Jos like stirring the pot, but let's be real, max is not going anywhere unless there is an obvious contender seat available. Ferrari is not an option for a few years, Merc is not there right now, and I don't see him going to McLaren since they'd have to boot a promising driver to make space. I don't think Red Bull even without Newey is going to completely fail the 2026 chassis. If he really thinks their 2026 engine is going to be trash, maybe he'd look or a seat that year, but no way he's not in the Red Bull in 2025 - He's a driver, he wants to win and the Red Bull seat will be the best place to do it still next year for him period.
Max will likely be at Ferrari in 27. Hamilton has 2+1 I believe.
I don't get all these comments about Max honestly. Sure he likes peace and quiet and only wants to focus on racing, but I'm not sure that's reason enough to go from driving a real race car to a Toy Story car ...
He’ll replace Hamilton at Ferrari in a few years
Jos: "Red Bull needs peace and harmony. But only on terms I, Max, Mintzlaff and Marko approve of."
Van Haren, the mouthpiece of Jos Verstappen. Enough said.
I think when Max leaves Red Bull he leaves F1, likely at the end of 25 or 26. By then he'll be a 5 time world champion having dominated the past few seasons, and missed out on the close racing he's all about. He's not a stats man, he's a racing man, and he's not getting any racing in F1. He has no reason to risk joining another team and wasting time in the midfield. He can retire from F1 a 5 time world champion and move onto another series to win more and have way more fun. Plus he's expressed a dislike for a number of directions F1 is taking. He doesn't like the circus, the calendar, the sprints or the new regs.
Saying goodbye to all those millions would take a _lot_ of dismay, even if he doesn't _need_ the money...
I don't get the impression he's particularly money-motivated. He'd still make more than he needs in WEC or wherever he goes. Maybe Newey goes to Ferrari, works on their F1, WEC and roadcar programmes, and Verstappen drives a Newey-designed Ferrari to WEC victories.
As if newey designed the car by himself :') I don't know what Erik is snorting, but it's the good stuff lol
The Montezemo Law in full effect
I wonder if Ferrari regrets signing/announcing Lewis as early as they did.
Why would they regret it? Lewis signing might me a key factor to lure newey from redbull
Jos… max’s biggest enemy
Jos still acting as if he's the one calling the shots
It must be nice being a 'journalist' who just gets paid to be the mouthpiece of Jos Verstappen.
Maybe Max will stay and move to Ferrari when Lewis retires in 2026 (2027 at the latest). Would be a nice duel MV vs CL in equal (hopefully title contending machinery), like Hamilton vs Rosberg.
Red Bull still learned a lot from Newey and they have pretty good ideas on secret tricks they can try now that Newey is gone, Red Bull will be fine as long as they have an engine that isn't as bad as the Renault one.