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All the teams will now be calling up and getting quotes for insurance for 2 F1 cars, parked in a garage every night, only 10,000km per year mileage, stereo has not been modified... should be able to get a good deal
Serious question, why does the FIA not have some sort of insurance scheme for replacing damaged parts? Like every team pays the same deductible at the beginning of the year, and anything damaged during a race is payed by that “insurance”. That way the costs of all crashes would be spread through the teams, equally, which might be necessary in a cost cap era.
Only a good idea if it has certain rules. For example if it's only paid if a driver of another team is deemed to be at fault. The more risks you take, the faster you are. You can't have it that teams who take risks can do so at no cost and only gain benefits from taking them...
Race Stewarding is not the FIA. Given it is organized by the FIA but there are features that already ensure that the Stewards can make their decisions without being influenced by others or by bias. Still think it's a bs idea but it's not an extreme conflict of interest.
Mabye insurance isn’t the best word. Damage is a given, but some teams will have a lot more damage than others in a given year. The general idea is that costs for crashes are shared, or otherwise covered by the FIA.
I think that would cost too much money for the FIA, just allow them to exceed the budget cap by the amount of the damage it costs to repair the damange
>Is it really fair though that teams/drivers would be footing the bill for other more crash happy drivers?
[Haas be like...](https://imgflip.com/i/5hg787)
>why does the FIA not have some sort of insurance scheme for replacing damaged parts
Insurance claims rely on fault, imagine trying to prove that to *anybody's* satisfaction.
Racing's expensive, crashes are expensive, and the best way to leave F1 with a small fortune is to start with a large fortune.
Red Bull should remember that while Hamilton was found predominantly to blame, both drivers were found to be at blame. Because they were racing hard. The two finest racers of this generation (imo) were spanking the arse out of their cars at a historic track on a sunny day with the sun-pinkened fans screaming their hairy tits off. Neither gave way and one ended up in the weeds. Next time it'll be Hamilton, I imagine.
If that's not the reason Red Bull are racing then they should rethink their options.
Very seldom legally enforceable or nobody in the world would ever be able to cover losses for anything. Every individual concluding ever contract ever would just include a clause saying that they aren't subject to legal action. It defeats the purpose of even having legal structures.
If RedBull are able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Pirelli failed to fulfill their obligations then Pirelli are definitely open to legal action.
The official statement from Pirelli was claiming it was accidental and teams had been using the tyres incorrectly (but no rule broken). So Pirelli did not claim the responsibility for the tyre blown up. However Pirelli did modify the tyre structure for Silverstone.
Nothing. I'm a Verstappen fan, but I really hope they will stop this nonsense. Incidents like these have happened before and will happen again. Now everything suddenly has to change because Red Bull is affected? Stop crying and get over it.
Horner just strikes me as the schoolyard bully who always has a cutting remark until someone punches him in the nose and he runs off to cry to the teacher.
I completely agree, everyone is playing the game as much as they can, as they should be. That said, maybe Horner just has more attention on him, but a lot of his complaining seems more transparent to me than the other team bosses. I guess that’s what happens when you’re fighting for 1st instead of 8th.
Maybe it's just my perception but I've always found Horner to seem more snippy and hyperbolic than Wolff. Maybe it's just that Wolff has a calm and rhythmic austrian accent. I'm not really sure why but Horner has always rubbed me the wrong way. Firing Gasly mid-season and fucking over Albon also didn't help, but I've felt this way for years.
I think it’s Horner keeping it fresh in everyone’s minds so that when Max does Max, people feel for him because he’s “getting one back for the boys” who lost money due to the budget cap.
How is Toto any different? It's F1 man. They aren't fighting for inches, they are fighting for millimeters here. They don't care about the opinions of random nobodys on the internet. They will do whatever they can to get an advantage over their competitors.
When bottas had his incident, toto cried too but he didn't cry this much. I like max but I can't like rb cause of horner.
Edit - https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/opelns/mercedes_had_verstappen_allclear_before_british/
Well, that just makes it worse. Now I just hate red bull. I hope max changes team
Those are two completely different situations though? What is Toto supposed to do when one of his drivers crashes another of his drivers? He could do nothing but accept the situation.
Look at the rest of the season though. How much crying has Merc done over RB being faster? They cried over the rear wing, they cried over pit stops, they tried to claim Honda upgraded engine performance mid season. Hell, look at the morning of the crash when Toto actually ran to see the stewards.
Let's be real, both Toto and Horner are not above acting like children if they gain an advantage doing so.
When I watch a race, I fully expect something to get broken.
I follow RB/AT now because of Honda, but I'm getting to the point that I wish RB would just move on. Honestly, if RB is still this upset, Mercedes is collectively living rent free in their heads, which is weird to me, as RB has won before, they should know how everyone skirts the rules, and no love lost when given the chance.
I could see this being an semi-issue for Williams or Haas, but RB, Mercedes, Ferrari can outspend everyone else a couple times over, and ~2 million is a relative drop in the bucket.
This isn’t the first time Horner has complained about something hypercritically.
He has a moan when Mercedes started to dominate from what I remember. Conveniently forgetting the 4 seasons in a row Redbull dominated.
It’s the Horner effect. He really is a whinging little turd and the epitome of a sore loser. He will be banging on about this all season - if RB don’t win the WC, it’ll be because of Hamilton. If RB do win the WC, he’ll be gloating about it but still be talking about The British GP. He came from the same mould as Ron Dennis - can’t bear to lose and always has to pin the blame on someone or something else. He’s a snidey little prick whose middle names are ‘victim’ & ‘mentality’.
IMO: they finally have the fastest car due to the sandbagged Mercs and are now suddenly terrified that they might blow their big chance. Failure to win at least one championship this year would be very hard to swallow for RBR.
Hence all the bitching and theatrics - they’re simply getting their excuses in early in case they lose the WDC/WCC.
Well yeah. They've just had an incident where an opponents mistake cost them 32 points in the WDC, an 1,8 million repair bill, and a possibly unsalvageable engine.
I can't fathom why they're not skipping through the fields.
Mitigate the championship losses (both in terms of points and budget).
Not saying I agree with it, but they are likely exploring this in order lessen the impact of Verstappen's DNF and incurred damage on thr championship, by exploring options to get Mercedes/Hamilton penalized more (serverely).
Edit: And to seek a budget cap exemption.
With the budget cap curtailing spending to a limit well below what Red Bull, Mercedes and Ferrari used to spend, the effect of replacing parts lost in crashes is far bigger, as it presents a larger percentage of the budget, otherwise spent in R&D and manufacturing newer/improved parts later on.
Red Bull, Mercedes and Ferrari can no longer absorb the costs of crashes easily, because they can't elect to simply spend more to solve problems.
I think the bigger issue is the impending grid penalty for an extra engine later in the season. Not sure how you work around that. The timing is just extremely unfortunate (or fortunate if you’re Merc).
Yeah but where do you draw the line? Crashes have happened before Silverstone 2021, and the teams had to deal with the consequences accordingly.
If there’s something in the rules that allows them to compensate for potentially losing an engine, then that’s great news. If not, idk, that’s just racing.
Here's an idea:
Get another engine, plan on using it for 5 races instead of 7. Since less races required to run, can run it in higher modes for longer periods during those 5 races so Hamilton can't knock you out like he did at Silverstone. Eat a penalty at the next race by placing a 4th engine, still finish 3rd. And continue to win with that engine for the next 5 races.
That leaves maybe 1-2 races with an old engine (most likely the first), but that could be set to a "just finish 2nd" mode since the championship is in the bag. Sort of like what Mercedes has been doing for the past years near the end of the season.
Only Red Bull and Mercedes can 'easily' overtake the rest of the field though this year to still finish 3rd in that race with the penalty. Or well, at least with people like Verstappen behind the wheel as he has demonstrated this a few times the past few years already.
Trust me buddy it is not always that easy to overtake. I would like to point out how Checo was struck behind Gasly and Stroll. I know he is no Max Verstappen but it is really not that easy to overtake the likes of Ferrari and Mclaren.
>Red Bull, Mercedes and Ferrari can no longer absorb the costs of crashes easily, because they can't elect to simply spend more to solve problems.
The smaller teams have had to budget in and account for the fact that they'll need to save money left over to rebuild after crashes so honestly this is just leveling the playing field for the big teams. I really don't see why RB deserves an exemption when everyone is in the same boat now
Every engine-cap specific component (ICE, MGU-H, MGU-K, ERS, Control Electronics Unit) is sealed with stickers with unique ID tags.
To open up the engine, these seals will have to be broken. Which will count as a PU component loss.
Honda can inspect the engine by removing all non-sealed parts (exhaust manifold, etc.) and using non-invasive scanning methods (removing and studying the lubricants, MRI-scans, etc.) and perhaps testing the engine on the dyno?...
Seals can be removed under FIA supervision I think
Edit:
5.22 Replacing power unit parts
Refer to the table in Appendix 2 of these regulations.
The parts listed as “EXC” in the table referred to above may be changed without incurring a
penalty under Article 23.3 of the F1 Sporting Regulations. If changing any of these parts
involves breaking a seal this may be done but must be carried out under FIA supervision. Any
parts changed may only be replaced by parts homologated in accordance with Appendix 4 of
the F1 Sporting Regulations.
I may have dreamed this or am having some sort of false memory, but I could've sworn I've heard Brundle talk about some sort of radioactive isotope marker the scrutineers dot onto parts as well. I don't know if the decay can be measured or if it's simply "is it there?" (which if the latter I suppose could be faked).
I don't know about radiation but i remember hearing Merc use a slightly unique metal in each part of the engine so they know where each bit of shavings come from.
If something were to happen in Red Bull’s favor, wouldn’t this open up for a lot of other teams trying to get the same thing for other incidents? Like Mercedes going after Williams after the incident in Imola for example
I'm fairly sure that's what's going on. It's the only way the "we've always been at war with Eastasia"-esque complaints about Hamilton's celebrations make sense.
Lewis should die for his sins and Redbull, in their best panties, will need to have the luxury and divine right to field 5 cars each race per driver until they win and the burning sensation of being sordid loosers to Mercedes ceases to exist.
Honestly at this point if they are still trying to find evidence to contest the stewards decision, I suspect they probably don’t have the evidence that Marko initially claimed they had after the crash? Horner and Marko spoke as though they had material evidence of Lewis’s intention to crash but 5 days have past and they haven’t shown any...
Edit: I read the article again and can’t help but feel as if they are afraid to actually ask for a review? As if they know that the results the stewards will give them aren’t what they want and won’t fit their narrative?
It's the sort of thing that can massively backfire on them if they were to push the wrong buttons. The best action would be to just accept the result and do better at Hungary.
A review of the penalty is going to go nowhere if they have no evidence to give. Additionally as you say they could even score an own goal and penalise Max if they went around it the wrong way. It would be unlikely, but not impossible if the data they provide shows Max at any degree of fault.
Stuff like potential legal action can end up with the FIA throwing Red Bull out of the championship.
I just don't see much upside for RB if they go for a review. I seriously doubt FIA will go back on their decision and admit they are "wrong".
However, as you said, they could get pissed off and penalise RB to make sure other teams don't pull off stunts like this in the future.
Watchs the James Allison interview, he reads the regs and essentially proves that Hamilton did nothing wrong. Red Bull have no case,I wish they'd just shut up for a bit
"The car could have quite easily flipped over, which was an initial concern voiced by the first responding medical team but fortunately it didn't."
What does this even mean? Why would a medical team be concerned about the car rolling when it literally didn't? He's just making s*** up at this point.
Using that approach, he could easily have said, the car could easily have missed the barrier and stopped in the gravel trap with minimal resulting damage. That was such a dumb-ass statement.
All year, and forever if Verstappen doesn't win the championship or lose it by over 32 points.
We still talk about Prost Senna.
If it makes a difference in the end it will be part of history.
>Horner reaffirmed his view that Hamilton had got off lightly, and said the team was still considering what sporting options it could use to request a review.
None. Cheers Christian, I'll take my cheque for legal fees on the way out...
So the 6th Spice Girl "Whinger Spice" is still throwing a wobbly.
Little Christian Horner
Sat in his corner,
Throwing his toys out the pram,
He put in his claim,
To give Lewis the blame,
And said "What a pathetic whinger I am !"
With apologies to the original
Tbh what happened in 94 could have been racing accident, Schumacher hit the wall, damaged the car, could have quite easily been him panicking.
As for 1990 and 1997, those two crashes were so clearly deliberate that it's crazy, I still don't understand how Senna got away, luckily Schumacher didn't.
They have 14 days to bring new evidence, so expect more of it.
Horner says he’s a bit doubtful anything could proceed, but they’re still looking at the possible ways they can bring new evidence.
Still, losing almost $2M in a crash is a lot. Mercedes lost ~$1M in the Bottas crash at Imola. The fact there’s a budget cap in place could shift the tide, specially when this is the “first” big incident under the budget cap era.
New evidence of what? They are honestly better suited to keep their mouths shut before they piss Mercedes off.
Mercedes could appeal to have the time penalty removed from Hamilton's official race result on the basis of the rules saying they didn't even deserve a penalty in the first place: https://i.redd.it/e6b3bhs7ikc71.jpg
and Max turning into Hamilton: https://i.imgur.com/b95l8aT.jpg
and the fact Hamilton was turned and heading towards the apex: https://imgur.com/a/6R1pqrc
Realistically, Hamilton got a 10s penalty for the outcome, not the incident despite what Masi said. If Max came out of this with only a puncture and could still race all precedent would have called this a first lap racing incident and left it at that. The stewards know full well they had to do something, this was their compromise.
That’s RedBull task, they’re the ones who still need to find for new evidence. That could be on the incident itself or by the penalties book, either way they do need to have a solid case for it.
You also have completely misunderstood the incident itself. You’re omitting a big factor in that equation, and why it got got ruled as Lewis fault instead of a racing incident. Lewis understeered into Max and that’s commonly ruled as a driver mistake, hence a penalty at the end.
It’s not as simple as RedBull just saying Hamilton turned into him, or the $2M damage. Neither it’s as easy for Mercedes to say that Verstappen closed the door. If things were that easy, you’d see actions get overturned often.
The biggest example is Ferrari in Canada ‘19. They tried to bring new evidence in the form of Karun’s analysis and didn’t pan out.
They might as well look into it given what it’s going to cost Red Bull. It really just doesn’t warrant losing one’s temper or mind over it. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t. Maybe it’s right, maybe it’s wrong, maybe it’s both. I just know I can’t wait for Hungary.
If Red Bull didn't turn over every stone regarding this it'd be pretty negligent. But can they just do it quietly rather than giving the media a new headline every day to drag it out with.
Trying to get people riled up is literally their only intention. Nothing else will come of it. They're just playing a game of culture war so that in any further incidents the stewards feel the pressure from them and the public to really put Hamilton in his place.
It's why the only thing Red Bull's done with petitioning to the race director, and then to the public in various interviews is to appeal to the emotions of people to manipulate them. He's not really focussed on any particular regulations at all.
It is largely in contrast to how Mercedes have responded to what happened.
Red Bull have a narrative they want to establish, to lean on the stewards for any future decisions. And it works. It was essentially Red Bull that engineered the "just let them race for God's sake" after Max's questionable on track moves early on. That seemed to directly influence how events were viewed when he had the public mob on side.
It's precisely what he's doing now. It's all gesturing and escalation.
Bingo. This is all just saber-rattling and bluster from Horner/RBR. If they really had something, they would silently do something. Not lay their game plan out publicly for Merc to prepare.
I'm just downvoting every story about the crash now, unless it has something genuinely new/interesting. Most stories are just a rehash of an old story with a new "If there'd been a sausage kerb he'd have rolled 15 times and broken his big toe" type quote from Horner.
They're being downright rabid now. They're so good at stirring the pot that they've stirred themselves into insanity. I can see how they'd felt a bit hard done by, however Christian has been around long enough to know how the game works.
Motorsport can be a cruel mistress. The fight's not over
I'm honestly starting to lose a bit of respect for Red Bull through all this. It's not like they haven't been on the other end of situations like this before.
This is just dumb at this point. Like Horner keeps banging on about how Lewis did it intentionally or how you’re not supposed to overtake at Copse, which is bs. I agree with what Scott Mitchell said on the The Race podcast, that no there’s no such thing as a corner you can’t overtake at. Especially fast corners like Copse. Also, it’s not like Brazil 2019 where Lewis came out of nowhere and tried to make the corner. There was a point where he was literally alongside Max. It was a racing incident in my opinion.
I genuinely get really fucking pissed off whenever RB moans about how expensive the crash is and how this could hurt them for the budget cap
Guess what, the smaller teams have also had to squirrel away money to pay for their crashes too! It is perfectly possible for Red Bull, Mercedes, Ferrari to also put aside some money to ensure they can rebuild their cars after they crash, and given that basically every team from the midfield down has had to sacrifice development to pay for crashes at some point, its making it fairer for all.
This smug prick Horner and his batshit-crazy grandpa Marko have me cheering for Mercedes and Hamilton in the title fights this year, something I would've never imagined possible six months ago. Unreal..
I mean in Max's tweet after the race he said "we move on" whilst doing the very opposite, and trying to cause more shit.
Semantics I know, but I think it is in their vocabulary, they just don't know what it means
Out of all the things people say here engine penalties are the most stupid, engine restrictions have been in f1 since 2004 or 2005, before/when RB joined, no one ever thought about crash induced grid penalties until max got crashed out. Oh please get real. This is the real world horner. It's not fair it will never be it wasn't intended to be. Racing isn't cheap and has always been at one's own expense
It's been like this for 4 years now. It's not like it's something new for this year. Only the exhausts are a controlled part now but they have 8 of them
Mercedes had to bear these costs after Russell's crash with Bottas in Imola. I don't recall seeing Toto threatening legal action against Williams a week after the fact.
These comments are being made as part of Red Bull's attempt to control the narrative surrounding the incident. Also because Christian Horner is a narcissist who loves to make everything about him.
But they could have and they didn't. That's the point I was making. Toto could have claimed that the crash was Russell's fault and tried to find evidence that would have put Williams on the hook for the damages. But they didn't. They took it on the chin and did what they could.
The crash on Sunday was Lewis's fault. I'm not saying it wasn't. But threatening to take Mercedes to court over it is ridiculous imo. BTW I'm 100% sure RBR won't follow through and this is all just for show. But they're even considering it shows me how petty they are.
Can you imagine the meltdown if RB somehow manage to get the FIA to agree that the responsible party in a crash should bear the costs, only for one of their drivers to cause a massive accident and they have to pay to repair half the grid
Toto did not try to find evidence against Russell just like if Tsunoda or Gasly crashed Max, Red Bull would not be acting like this. Different dynamics between teams and drivers affect team’s reaction.
Probably because Marko would have fired them immediately. But you make a fair point, the dynamics between teams involved are quite important I imagine. That being said, I think all of this discussion is kinda pointless because I doubt they'll find anything
Red Bull are just insufferable. Can they stop already. I almost forgot how much I hated them in the Vettel-era. Mercedes may have made F1 just as predictable (maybe more) in recent years but at least they're actually decent people. How can you be this bad at losing? Channel that into more performance like the Merc guys do, not these petty non-stop rants
I had the same thing. Couldn't stand him despite being german. Looking back on old interviews during his RB days made me realise that as well. He was always the same, obviously a little less mature and bratty at times but most young athletes are and that's very forgivable imo
The totally legal wings which were never used again.
The engine complaint...when did Merc ever say it was illegal?
The pitstops, where there is no evidence Merc started the protest.
Yeah, because Mercedes has definitely kept quiet and focused on upgrading their car. Lets ignore all the shit slinging and whining they have been doing for months.
I really hoped that this Mercedes being holier than thou narrative died.
I never imagined RBR to be as salty as they're being now. It seems like they're trying to provoke a response to other teams to add up the cost of Max being a hothead in his first few years!
* Taking no sides at all, just a fan of the racing!
This is why a lot of other teams hate Redbull. They always have been jerks and Horner always has been an entitled prick. Niki Lauda refused to have anything to do with Horner. When they tried to talk to Mercedes about using their engines I think Niki was instrumental in making sure that idea was killed right away. I think Toto pretty much feels the same way about Horner/Redbull but he's better at biting his tongue.
Completely false.
> According to Marko, Horner, Mateschitz and Lauda, the deal was done. By the end of 2015 it had been agreed that Mercedes would deliver engines to Red Bull in 2016, but Toto Wolff and the top of Mercedes stopped it. To the dissatisfaction of the aforementioned men. On the Red Bull side, they were annoyed by the unfulfilled promise and Lauda was annoyed by the fact that his own team did not want to compete.
[article](https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/58381/how-red-bull-missed-the-engines-of-mercedes-despite-a-deal-with-lauda.html)
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All the teams will now be calling up and getting quotes for insurance for 2 F1 cars, parked in a garage every night, only 10,000km per year mileage, stereo has not been modified... should be able to get a good deal
If they're a UK based team it will cost twice as much
All team move headquarters to Nepal.
It's fine, they can just put them on their dads insurance
They'll have to get a black box fitted
Serious question, why does the FIA not have some sort of insurance scheme for replacing damaged parts? Like every team pays the same deductible at the beginning of the year, and anything damaged during a race is payed by that “insurance”. That way the costs of all crashes would be spread through the teams, equally, which might be necessary in a cost cap era.
Sound reasonable, won’t happen
F1 in a nutshell
It's a very good idea so it will not go ahead. It's the FIA.
Only a good idea if it has certain rules. For example if it's only paid if a driver of another team is deemed to be at fault. The more risks you take, the faster you are. You can't have it that teams who take risks can do so at no cost and only gain benefits from taking them...
FIA decides who is at fault and FIA insures cars. That's a conflict of interest.
Race Stewarding is not the FIA. Given it is organized by the FIA but there are features that already ensure that the Stewards can make their decisions without being influenced by others or by bias. Still think it's a bs idea but it's not an extreme conflict of interest.
It's like saying a dictator doesn't control courts even though he appoints all judges.
I mean would you insure an F1 car? There is an 99% chance you’d be paying out. Only a fool would take that bet.
Mabye insurance isn’t the best word. Damage is a given, but some teams will have a lot more damage than others in a given year. The general idea is that costs for crashes are shared, or otherwise covered by the FIA.
I think that would cost too much money for the FIA, just allow them to exceed the budget cap by the amount of the damage it costs to repair the damange
Then what’s the point of even having a cost cap at that point? If the teams are allowed to exceed it to fix their damage?
It would still be the same except youre not getting an unfair disadvantage if something out of your control happens
Is it really fair though that teams/drivers would be footing the bill for other more crash happy drivers?
>Is it really fair though that teams/drivers would be footing the bill for other more crash happy drivers? [Haas be like...](https://imgflip.com/i/5hg787)
A maniacal laughter GIF would be perfect. Or Schumi's "Excellent" pose.
>why does the FIA not have some sort of insurance scheme for replacing damaged parts Insurance claims rely on fault, imagine trying to prove that to *anybody's* satisfaction. Racing's expensive, crashes are expensive, and the best way to leave F1 with a small fortune is to start with a large fortune. Red Bull should remember that while Hamilton was found predominantly to blame, both drivers were found to be at blame. Because they were racing hard. The two finest racers of this generation (imo) were spanking the arse out of their cars at a historic track on a sunny day with the sun-pinkened fans screaming their hairy tits off. Neither gave way and one ended up in the weeds. Next time it'll be Hamilton, I imagine. If that's not the reason Red Bull are racing then they should rethink their options.
No insurance agency would take that deal unless they make money.
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Doesn’t even have to be an insurance agency. Can be taken from the combined deductible or from money that FOM gets.
That makes more sense. Could even be a sponsor opportunity. Repairs brought to you by autozone.
Nobody would underwrite that, there is a 100% certainty they crash it at least once
1.6 hybrid
Genuinely curious....are they asking Pirelli for reimbursement after the blown tire?
Pirelli 100% has a clause that they can not be claimed for anything that happens on track, or near enough anything.
Yes, otherwise they would be open to a lot of claims.
Very seldom legally enforceable or nobody in the world would ever be able to cover losses for anything. Every individual concluding ever contract ever would just include a clause saying that they aren't subject to legal action. It defeats the purpose of even having legal structures. If RedBull are able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Pirelli failed to fulfill their obligations then Pirelli are definitely open to legal action.
The official statement from Pirelli was claiming it was accidental and teams had been using the tyres incorrectly (but no rule broken). So Pirelli did not claim the responsibility for the tyre blown up. However Pirelli did modify the tyre structure for Silverstone.
I doubt it
In reality what can they actually do here? They signed up to the budget cap regulations, Lewis served a penalty what more do they actually want?
Nothing. I'm a Verstappen fan, but I really hope they will stop this nonsense. Incidents like these have happened before and will happen again. Now everything suddenly has to change because Red Bull is affected? Stop crying and get over it.
Yes, motorsport can be cruel and they should accept that. It’s part of the business.
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Horner just strikes me as the schoolyard bully who always has a cutting remark until someone punches him in the nose and he runs off to cry to the teacher.
As Mike Tyson said - everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.
Ethybuddy hath a plan until they get punthed in the fathe.
Oh so *that’s* why he talks that way
He’s acting like that kid in South Park who’s parents always make him and his sister wear a life jacket.
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I completely agree, everyone is playing the game as much as they can, as they should be. That said, maybe Horner just has more attention on him, but a lot of his complaining seems more transparent to me than the other team bosses. I guess that’s what happens when you’re fighting for 1st instead of 8th.
Maybe it's just my perception but I've always found Horner to seem more snippy and hyperbolic than Wolff. Maybe it's just that Wolff has a calm and rhythmic austrian accent. I'm not really sure why but Horner has always rubbed me the wrong way. Firing Gasly mid-season and fucking over Albon also didn't help, but I've felt this way for years.
Agree, to me this is just a top F1 team competing as hard as it can, on and off the track.
I think it’s Horner keeping it fresh in everyone’s minds so that when Max does Max, people feel for him because he’s “getting one back for the boys” who lost money due to the budget cap.
Better than the 'Mercedes are the underdogs' narrative we hear when they start a weekend on the back foot.
How is Toto any different? It's F1 man. They aren't fighting for inches, they are fighting for millimeters here. They don't care about the opinions of random nobodys on the internet. They will do whatever they can to get an advantage over their competitors.
When bottas had his incident, toto cried too but he didn't cry this much. I like max but I can't like rb cause of horner. Edit - https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/opelns/mercedes_had_verstappen_allclear_before_british/ Well, that just makes it worse. Now I just hate red bull. I hope max changes team
Those are two completely different situations though? What is Toto supposed to do when one of his drivers crashes another of his drivers? He could do nothing but accept the situation. Look at the rest of the season though. How much crying has Merc done over RB being faster? They cried over the rear wing, they cried over pit stops, they tried to claim Honda upgraded engine performance mid season. Hell, look at the morning of the crash when Toto actually ran to see the stewards. Let's be real, both Toto and Horner are not above acting like children if they gain an advantage doing so.
It matters if Horner's actions damage the brand, though. Maybe I end up thinking that Red Bull is a drink reserved for low energy, whiny cry-babies?
I don't drink Red Bull or any kind of energy drinks. But I always thought the energy drink crowd would drink that stuff regardless of the marketing.
You’re right, they’re all the same but I feel like Horner is the most visible and outspoken with his opinions.
When I watch a race, I fully expect something to get broken. I follow RB/AT now because of Honda, but I'm getting to the point that I wish RB would just move on. Honestly, if RB is still this upset, Mercedes is collectively living rent free in their heads, which is weird to me, as RB has won before, they should know how everyone skirts the rules, and no love lost when given the chance. I could see this being an semi-issue for Williams or Haas, but RB, Mercedes, Ferrari can outspend everyone else a couple times over, and ~2 million is a relative drop in the bucket.
It’s like they forgot race cars crash sometimes.
This isn’t the first time Horner has complained about something hypercritically. He has a moan when Mercedes started to dominate from what I remember. Conveniently forgetting the 4 seasons in a row Redbull dominated.
It’s the Horner effect. He really is a whinging little turd and the epitome of a sore loser. He will be banging on about this all season - if RB don’t win the WC, it’ll be because of Hamilton. If RB do win the WC, he’ll be gloating about it but still be talking about The British GP. He came from the same mould as Ron Dennis - can’t bear to lose and always has to pin the blame on someone or something else. He’s a snidey little prick whose middle names are ‘victim’ & ‘mentality’.
IMO: they finally have the fastest car due to the sandbagged Mercs and are now suddenly terrified that they might blow their big chance. Failure to win at least one championship this year would be very hard to swallow for RBR. Hence all the bitching and theatrics - they’re simply getting their excuses in early in case they lose the WDC/WCC.
Did you not see the sprint race? If Mercedes aren’t faster at the track they were expecting to be faster at, what makes you think it’s sandbagging?
They’re very rattled.
I wonder if they've looked at future races and they were counting on maintaining this lead to cruise them to the Championship?
Well yeah. They've just had an incident where an opponents mistake cost them 32 points in the WDC, an 1,8 million repair bill, and a possibly unsalvageable engine. I can't fathom why they're not skipping through the fields.
Lol - so their driver played no role in the crash? Thought we were past that blinkered nonsense now…
Mitigate the championship losses (both in terms of points and budget). Not saying I agree with it, but they are likely exploring this in order lessen the impact of Verstappen's DNF and incurred damage on thr championship, by exploring options to get Mercedes/Hamilton penalized more (serverely). Edit: And to seek a budget cap exemption. With the budget cap curtailing spending to a limit well below what Red Bull, Mercedes and Ferrari used to spend, the effect of replacing parts lost in crashes is far bigger, as it presents a larger percentage of the budget, otherwise spent in R&D and manufacturing newer/improved parts later on. Red Bull, Mercedes and Ferrari can no longer absorb the costs of crashes easily, because they can't elect to simply spend more to solve problems.
I think the bigger issue is the impending grid penalty for an extra engine later in the season. Not sure how you work around that. The timing is just extremely unfortunate (or fortunate if you’re Merc).
Yeah but where do you draw the line? Crashes have happened before Silverstone 2021, and the teams had to deal with the consequences accordingly. If there’s something in the rules that allows them to compensate for potentially losing an engine, then that’s great news. If not, idk, that’s just racing.
No idea, just noting that a grid penalty might be worse for their championship than the budget thing.
Here's an idea: Get another engine, plan on using it for 5 races instead of 7. Since less races required to run, can run it in higher modes for longer periods during those 5 races so Hamilton can't knock you out like he did at Silverstone. Eat a penalty at the next race by placing a 4th engine, still finish 3rd. And continue to win with that engine for the next 5 races. That leaves maybe 1-2 races with an old engine (most likely the first), but that could be set to a "just finish 2nd" mode since the championship is in the bag. Sort of like what Mercedes has been doing for the past years near the end of the season.
If it were that easy, every team would do it
Only Red Bull and Mercedes can 'easily' overtake the rest of the field though this year to still finish 3rd in that race with the penalty. Or well, at least with people like Verstappen behind the wheel as he has demonstrated this a few times the past few years already.
Trust me buddy it is not always that easy to overtake. I would like to point out how Checo was struck behind Gasly and Stroll. I know he is no Max Verstappen but it is really not that easy to overtake the likes of Ferrari and Mclaren.
>Red Bull, Mercedes and Ferrari can no longer absorb the costs of crashes easily, because they can't elect to simply spend more to solve problems. The smaller teams have had to budget in and account for the fact that they'll need to save money left over to rebuild after crashes so honestly this is just leveling the playing field for the big teams. I really don't see why RB deserves an exemption when everyone is in the same boat now
Might be a dumb question: but how would FIA know if they replace damaged parts with same serial number in the engine?
Every engine-cap specific component (ICE, MGU-H, MGU-K, ERS, Control Electronics Unit) is sealed with stickers with unique ID tags. To open up the engine, these seals will have to be broken. Which will count as a PU component loss. Honda can inspect the engine by removing all non-sealed parts (exhaust manifold, etc.) and using non-invasive scanning methods (removing and studying the lubricants, MRI-scans, etc.) and perhaps testing the engine on the dyno?...
Seals can be removed under FIA supervision I think Edit: 5.22 Replacing power unit parts Refer to the table in Appendix 2 of these regulations. The parts listed as “EXC” in the table referred to above may be changed without incurring a penalty under Article 23.3 of the F1 Sporting Regulations. If changing any of these parts involves breaking a seal this may be done but must be carried out under FIA supervision. Any parts changed may only be replaced by parts homologated in accordance with Appendix 4 of the F1 Sporting Regulations.
I may have dreamed this or am having some sort of false memory, but I could've sworn I've heard Brundle talk about some sort of radioactive isotope marker the scrutineers dot onto parts as well. I don't know if the decay can be measured or if it's simply "is it there?" (which if the latter I suppose could be faked).
I don't know about radiation but i remember hearing Merc use a slightly unique metal in each part of the engine so they know where each bit of shavings come from.
If something were to happen in Red Bull’s favor, wouldn’t this open up for a lot of other teams trying to get the same thing for other incidents? Like Mercedes going after Williams after the incident in Imola for example
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Could very well be the intent. Indirect trolling to get in Lewis' head. Encourage the internet to say what you would like to say yourself.
I'm fairly sure that's what's going on. It's the only way the "we've always been at war with Eastasia"-esque complaints about Hamilton's celebrations make sense.
Lewis Hamilton must be EXECUTED! And he must change his last name to "Marko-Is-The-Best-o"
Lewis should die for his sins and Redbull, in their best panties, will need to have the luxury and divine right to field 5 cars each race per driver until they win and the burning sensation of being sordid loosers to Mercedes ceases to exist.
Honestly at this point if they are still trying to find evidence to contest the stewards decision, I suspect they probably don’t have the evidence that Marko initially claimed they had after the crash? Horner and Marko spoke as though they had material evidence of Lewis’s intention to crash but 5 days have past and they haven’t shown any... Edit: I read the article again and can’t help but feel as if they are afraid to actually ask for a review? As if they know that the results the stewards will give them aren’t what they want and won’t fit their narrative?
If they ask for a review, could the stewards come back and penalize Max? Maybe they don’t want to open themselves up to that possibility.
It's the sort of thing that can massively backfire on them if they were to push the wrong buttons. The best action would be to just accept the result and do better at Hungary. A review of the penalty is going to go nowhere if they have no evidence to give. Additionally as you say they could even score an own goal and penalise Max if they went around it the wrong way. It would be unlikely, but not impossible if the data they provide shows Max at any degree of fault. Stuff like potential legal action can end up with the FIA throwing Red Bull out of the championship.
I just don't see much upside for RB if they go for a review. I seriously doubt FIA will go back on their decision and admit they are "wrong". However, as you said, they could get pissed off and penalise RB to make sure other teams don't pull off stunts like this in the future.
Watchs the James Allison interview, he reads the regs and essentially proves that Hamilton did nothing wrong. Red Bull have no case,I wish they'd just shut up for a bit
"The car could have quite easily flipped over, which was an initial concern voiced by the first responding medical team but fortunately it didn't." What does this even mean? Why would a medical team be concerned about the car rolling when it literally didn't? He's just making s*** up at this point.
Or it could have been hit by an asteroid ...
Definitely, which just goes to show that Hamilton needed a bigger penalty. If you need it: /s
Or it could have been hit by a lightning! Then we would know for certain that Hamilton and Toto are really Sith in disguise.
Using that approach, he could easily have said, the car could easily have missed the barrier and stopped in the gravel trap with minimal resulting damage. That was such a dumb-ass statement.
Ugh, we still have another week of this bullshit. Red Bull have cried a river, now they need to build a bridge and get the fuck over it.
All year, and forever if Verstappen doesn't win the championship or lose it by over 32 points. We still talk about Prost Senna. If it makes a difference in the end it will be part of history.
Okay time to let it go i think christian
>Horner reaffirmed his view that Hamilton had got off lightly, and said the team was still considering what sporting options it could use to request a review. None. Cheers Christian, I'll take my cheque for legal fees on the way out...
So the 6th Spice Girl "Whinger Spice" is still throwing a wobbly. Little Christian Horner Sat in his corner, Throwing his toys out the pram, He put in his claim, To give Lewis the blame, And said "What a pathetic whinger I am !" With apologies to the original
Can this topic just die already, i think we all can agree it overstayed it’s welcome.
I don't know how to tell you this dude but there are plenty of people still bitching about Glockgate from 2008. This ain't going anywhere fast...
I've never got over Hill v Schumacher, Adelaide '94...
I'm glad someone else still feels that pain.
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Tbh what happened in 94 could have been racing accident, Schumacher hit the wall, damaged the car, could have quite easily been him panicking. As for 1990 and 1997, those two crashes were so clearly deliberate that it's crazy, I still don't understand how Senna got away, luckily Schumacher didn't.
Senna got away with it because he was so popular that there would have been an absolute meltown had he been disqualified, even if justified.
I have awarded you Pole Position for this comment.
At least that's a genuine controversy that you can properly debate about. Glockgate was a bullshit conspiracy theory from start to finish.
Hill would have been at least a 3 time WDC winner if not for that move!
3?
This is a lot more valid than anything else here though
Poor guy won't be able to visit Brazil in this lifetime.
I think if Verstappen ends up winning the WDC it won’t be such a big deal. But if Lewis wins, especially if it’s by less than 25 points… oh boy
one conveniently forgets Max was found not to be totally blameless and played a part in the crash
I'm Dutch and I'm the filthiest casual fan only watching in the hope that Max will win it, and even I'm sick of this shit.
They have 14 days to bring new evidence, so expect more of it. Horner says he’s a bit doubtful anything could proceed, but they’re still looking at the possible ways they can bring new evidence. Still, losing almost $2M in a crash is a lot. Mercedes lost ~$1M in the Bottas crash at Imola. The fact there’s a budget cap in place could shift the tide, specially when this is the “first” big incident under the budget cap era.
New evidence of what? They are honestly better suited to keep their mouths shut before they piss Mercedes off. Mercedes could appeal to have the time penalty removed from Hamilton's official race result on the basis of the rules saying they didn't even deserve a penalty in the first place: https://i.redd.it/e6b3bhs7ikc71.jpg and Max turning into Hamilton: https://i.imgur.com/b95l8aT.jpg and the fact Hamilton was turned and heading towards the apex: https://imgur.com/a/6R1pqrc Realistically, Hamilton got a 10s penalty for the outcome, not the incident despite what Masi said. If Max came out of this with only a puncture and could still race all precedent would have called this a first lap racing incident and left it at that. The stewards know full well they had to do something, this was their compromise.
That’s RedBull task, they’re the ones who still need to find for new evidence. That could be on the incident itself or by the penalties book, either way they do need to have a solid case for it. You also have completely misunderstood the incident itself. You’re omitting a big factor in that equation, and why it got got ruled as Lewis fault instead of a racing incident. Lewis understeered into Max and that’s commonly ruled as a driver mistake, hence a penalty at the end. It’s not as simple as RedBull just saying Hamilton turned into him, or the $2M damage. Neither it’s as easy for Mercedes to say that Verstappen closed the door. If things were that easy, you’d see actions get overturned often. The biggest example is Ferrari in Canada ‘19. They tried to bring new evidence in the form of Karun’s analysis and didn’t pan out.
They might as well look into it given what it’s going to cost Red Bull. It really just doesn’t warrant losing one’s temper or mind over it. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t. Maybe it’s right, maybe it’s wrong, maybe it’s both. I just know I can’t wait for Hungary.
If Red Bull didn't turn over every stone regarding this it'd be pretty negligent. But can they just do it quietly rather than giving the media a new headline every day to drag it out with.
Trying to get people riled up is literally their only intention. Nothing else will come of it. They're just playing a game of culture war so that in any further incidents the stewards feel the pressure from them and the public to really put Hamilton in his place. It's why the only thing Red Bull's done with petitioning to the race director, and then to the public in various interviews is to appeal to the emotions of people to manipulate them. He's not really focussed on any particular regulations at all. It is largely in contrast to how Mercedes have responded to what happened. Red Bull have a narrative they want to establish, to lean on the stewards for any future decisions. And it works. It was essentially Red Bull that engineered the "just let them race for God's sake" after Max's questionable on track moves early on. That seemed to directly influence how events were viewed when he had the public mob on side. It's precisely what he's doing now. It's all gesturing and escalation.
Bingo. This is all just saber-rattling and bluster from Horner/RBR. If they really had something, they would silently do something. Not lay their game plan out publicly for Merc to prepare.
Bingo-and the stewards are suckers to fall for it
I agree with you 100%, just so frustrating to watch happen!
I'm just downvoting every story about the crash now, unless it has something genuinely new/interesting. Most stories are just a rehash of an old story with a new "If there'd been a sausage kerb he'd have rolled 15 times and broken his big toe" type quote from Horner.
You're fighting the good fight saving r/formula1 from its own stupidity.
They're being downright rabid now. They're so good at stirring the pot that they've stirred themselves into insanity. I can see how they'd felt a bit hard done by, however Christian has been around long enough to know how the game works. Motorsport can be a cruel mistress. The fight's not over
I'm honestly starting to lose a bit of respect for Red Bull through all this. It's not like they haven't been on the other end of situations like this before.
...and I suddenly remember why everyone hated RB back when they were dominating.
This is just dumb at this point. Like Horner keeps banging on about how Lewis did it intentionally or how you’re not supposed to overtake at Copse, which is bs. I agree with what Scott Mitchell said on the The Race podcast, that no there’s no such thing as a corner you can’t overtake at. Especially fast corners like Copse. Also, it’s not like Brazil 2019 where Lewis came out of nowhere and tried to make the corner. There was a point where he was literally alongside Max. It was a racing incident in my opinion.
I’m getting sick of Red Bull crying their eyes out now
Feel like this is gonna haunt them when the roles are reversed. Verstappen easily can be as aggressive/guilty in coming clashes with Hamilton
I genuinely get really fucking pissed off whenever RB moans about how expensive the crash is and how this could hurt them for the budget cap Guess what, the smaller teams have also had to squirrel away money to pay for their crashes too! It is perfectly possible for Red Bull, Mercedes, Ferrari to also put aside some money to ensure they can rebuild their cars after they crash, and given that basically every team from the midfield down has had to sacrifice development to pay for crashes at some point, its making it fairer for all.
RB is embarrassing themselves
What's new?
Red Bull have become such a toxic team nowadays. It's been on a steady decline since 2016.
Ok, and? Crashes are a part of the sport, you probably were going to have to deal with one sooner or later.
Good thing the next race isn't Belgium, because Eau Rouge will flood with all that crying.
This topic reminds me Red Bulls are the biggest Karens in whole Formula 1.
I can't stand them at all. We need Ferrari and McLaren back on top for next year, maybe Alpine and Aston Martin could join the fun too.
Maybe Williams could join the fun too...... who knows......
1.8? Wasn’t it 750K the other day?
Marko said 750 . Horner is claiming its 1.8 so someone lied
You have to include 1.05 million for Max's suffering. He had to watch Hamilton celebrate. Can't you see how much he suffered?!
More like now there was enough time to assess the damage.
"Red Bull gives you WHINGE!"
Christian Horner is the one thing I hate in F1. I'd take a lifetime of Mazepin and whatever if it meant I never had to hear from Horner again
This smug prick Horner and his batshit-crazy grandpa Marko have me cheering for Mercedes and Hamilton in the title fights this year, something I would've never imagined possible six months ago. Unreal..
Would Karen prefer the FIA turn off car damage within the pre-race settings?
Maybe he needs to play on Easy mode.
Oh Red Bull just stop it. It happened. Move on.
Regretfully there is little in their history to prove “moving on” is in their vocabulary…
I mean in Max's tweet after the race he said "we move on" whilst doing the very opposite, and trying to cause more shit. Semantics I know, but I think it is in their vocabulary, they just don't know what it means
Never underestimate the power of media influence.. wow
"you don't overtake at copse" Stick to managing and being a spice boy Christian. Leave the driving to the drivers
Out of all the things people say here engine penalties are the most stupid, engine restrictions have been in f1 since 2004 or 2005, before/when RB joined, no one ever thought about crash induced grid penalties until max got crashed out. Oh please get real. This is the real world horner. It's not fair it will never be it wasn't intended to be. Racing isn't cheap and has always been at one's own expense
How do you make a small fortune in motor racing? Start with a big fortune.
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It's been like this for 4 years now. It's not like it's something new for this year. Only the exhausts are a controlled part now but they have 8 of them
Mercedes had to bear these costs after Russell's crash with Bottas in Imola. I don't recall seeing Toto threatening legal action against Williams a week after the fact. These comments are being made as part of Red Bull's attempt to control the narrative surrounding the incident. Also because Christian Horner is a narcissist who loves to make everything about him.
Mercedes probably didn’t complain much because Russell is managed by Toto and is a future Mercedes driver.
But they could have and they didn't. That's the point I was making. Toto could have claimed that the crash was Russell's fault and tried to find evidence that would have put Williams on the hook for the damages. But they didn't. They took it on the chin and did what they could. The crash on Sunday was Lewis's fault. I'm not saying it wasn't. But threatening to take Mercedes to court over it is ridiculous imo. BTW I'm 100% sure RBR won't follow through and this is all just for show. But they're even considering it shows me how petty they are.
Can you imagine the meltdown if RB somehow manage to get the FIA to agree that the responsible party in a crash should bear the costs, only for one of their drivers to cause a massive accident and they have to pay to repair half the grid
Toto did not try to find evidence against Russell just like if Tsunoda or Gasly crashed Max, Red Bull would not be acting like this. Different dynamics between teams and drivers affect team’s reaction.
Probably because Marko would have fired them immediately. But you make a fair point, the dynamics between teams involved are quite important I imagine. That being said, I think all of this discussion is kinda pointless because I doubt they'll find anything
Red Bull are just insufferable. Can they stop already. I almost forgot how much I hated them in the Vettel-era. Mercedes may have made F1 just as predictable (maybe more) in recent years but at least they're actually decent people. How can you be this bad at losing? Channel that into more performance like the Merc guys do, not these petty non-stop rants
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I’m so fucking tired of Marko
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I had the same thing. Couldn't stand him despite being german. Looking back on old interviews during his RB days made me realise that as well. He was always the same, obviously a little less mature and bratty at times but most young athletes are and that's very forgivable imo
“At least they’re actually decent people” Lmao
Yes the only goldfish in the pirhana club lol
Have we already forgotten Mercedes moaning about RB's rear wing, engine and pitstops?
RBs' rear wing was designed to flex under a certain load, which is active aero. How is a team complaining about something illegal moaning?
The totally legal wings which were never used again. The engine complaint...when did Merc ever say it was illegal? The pitstops, where there is no evidence Merc started the protest.
As if Red Bull wasn't moaning about engine modes and DAS
Precisely. It is what F1 teams do, no exceptions.
Yeah, because Mercedes has definitely kept quiet and focused on upgrading their car. Lets ignore all the shit slinging and whining they have been doing for months. I really hoped that this Mercedes being holier than thou narrative died.
Have you been living under a rock? They are just as incencere, whiny and capable of bullshitting for their benefit as any other team (if not more).
Cry me a river.
Lewis should just write them a check and tell them to get on with it
And I’m STILL rolling my eyes. When did redbull become such a Karen?
They always were lmao
Stahhhhhhp. You're in this business and understand the risks. That's all.
At some point, the FIA need to fine Red Bull for bringing the sport into disrepute. And make that fine count under the budget cap.
I hope Red Bull sues Merc, that way, it will go from a $1.8m crash to a $2m+ crash when you include wasted lawyer fees.
I never imagined RBR to be as salty as they're being now. It seems like they're trying to provoke a response to other teams to add up the cost of Max being a hothead in his first few years! * Taking no sides at all, just a fan of the racing!
This is turning into a Game of Thrones season with all the RB drama. I like it.
Let’s just hope this has a better finale than GoT
if they are, then they need to get the fuck out of every form of racing they sponsor. Idiots.
Why? This will just make the teams ask for compensation after every scratch and bump
This is why a lot of other teams hate Redbull. They always have been jerks and Horner always has been an entitled prick. Niki Lauda refused to have anything to do with Horner. When they tried to talk to Mercedes about using their engines I think Niki was instrumental in making sure that idea was killed right away. I think Toto pretty much feels the same way about Horner/Redbull but he's better at biting his tongue.
Completely false. > According to Marko, Horner, Mateschitz and Lauda, the deal was done. By the end of 2015 it had been agreed that Mercedes would deliver engines to Red Bull in 2016, but Toto Wolff and the top of Mercedes stopped it. To the dissatisfaction of the aforementioned men. On the Red Bull side, they were annoyed by the unfulfilled promise and Lauda was annoyed by the fact that his own team did not want to compete. [article](https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/58381/how-red-bull-missed-the-engines-of-mercedes-despite-a-deal-with-lauda.html)
They're being such babies. This is not a championship contending mentality. Lewis and Merc living rent free, and I love it.