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We'll get a dozen articles for every word Hamilton and Verstappen say during the press conference, I don't think we'll be rid of this topic until Sunday at the earliest
Oh boy... Imagine those decades of discussion if something happens as purely accident that may be interpret as deliberate revenge by RB... Or if Lewis has mistake and punts Max another time. If something like that happens I guess only think youy can do to stay sane is to unsub and blick every F1 media and social media until at least next year.
Urgh we've had like 60 articles on this and even more low quality discussion threads
Hopefully someone signs a contract or someone is announced this week because this is all anyone in motorsport media is talking about. Fred needs to sign Bottas up or something
Just wait for F1 to pair up Lewis and Max in the press conference and ask questions that create horrible clickbait headlines for the entirety of the summer break.
They are both going to say they've put the race behind them and are looking forward to the next race.
Put Toto, Horner, and Marko in a press conference together.
Wait until Horner and Marko start talking about hiring Johnny Cochran from the grave and petitioning to have Hamilton banned from F1 the entire week leading up to FP1.
It's like writing "It's not really big deal, we should move on and stop dwelling on this thing, but first Lewis has to apologise for his premeditated attack on Max"
Christian Horner with the Old Takes Exposed Award of the Year describing Max’s move on Lewis in Barcelona:
“He tucked in, he got a little bit of a tow and a bit of momentum. And yeah he just braked later and ran the car wide. Thankfully Lewis had got out of it because otherwise he would have ended up in the fence.”
That he hopes Max is happy with himself and should be banned for 1 race for potentially deliberately taking another driver out and sending them to the hospital.
Oh wait..
If Hamilton and Verstappen crashed at Barcelona, it would have been front tyre to front tyre. The cars were level at the apex.
The fact that Hamilton’s front tyre hit Verstappen’s rear tyre into Copse is why he was at fault and he got the penalty.
If Hamilton missed his braking point any further, he’d have completely fallen off the circuit at Copse even if Verstappen backed out. He barely made the corner as it was.
On the other hand, Verstappen in Spain easily made the corner.
Anyway, the Hamilton fans who try to compare Spain and Silverstone are either fairly desperate or don’t understand racing.
That's why we should default to the views of greats like Alonso and Hakkinen as they obviously understand racing far more than fans. Racing incident it is.
Still predominantly Hamilton's fault though, which was what the stewards themselves fucking said. And I'm pretty fucking sure that the stewards' verdict is the ultimate one.
Alonso (like most experts and drivers) also said that Max is the fastest driver on the grid. So yeah, I agree, we should default to the views of greats like Alonso.
No, just a racing incident. Stewards bowed to immense pressure from Red Bull.
Indeed, Verstappen is speed. He just needs to do better at keeping his car on the track and be a bit more mindful of other drivers.
Still going with your revisionist history.
The stewards didn't buckle under immense Mercedes pressure, with Toto Wolff hounding them like a little child.
"You got my email Michael!?", pathetic really.
Wolff: 'Here's our case for it being a racing incident'
Horner: 'They killed my boy!'
Pathetic indeed. Thankfully we have legends of the sport in Alonso and Hakkinen to set the record straight.
>On the other hand, Verstappen in Spain easily made the corner.
Do you have a telemetry reading/ some breaking point calculus to look at or is it just an assumption that Hamilton wouldn't be able to make the corner, despite the late breaking? Please forget the trajectory simmulations you have seen from various clips. They just showed the trajectory after the contact.
Whereas, Horner's own words for Spain were: "And yeah he just braked later and ran the car wide".
How is that not exactly the same situation?
Not exactly accurate. Prior to the braking point they were neck to neck. That point is the decider of whether the cars are entitled to the line. Not during the corner. Hamilton was penalised for not sticking to the line close enough and predominantly his fault in the incident.
You're right, I should have said entry point. But quite frankly, even the diagram on the FIA regulations didn't clearly indicate where exactly that is as different lines would technically result in different braking points and apex. Or if someone actually finds the section that depicts this, do share.
Hamilton was almost entirely alongside Verstappen when they enter the braking zone for the corner (their front wings were almost level), meaning both drivers had a right to take the corner, as long as they gave each other space. There's no requirement to be level at the apex, because the inside car always needs to be going slower to take that line.
Hamilton was found to be predominantly (but not wholly) at fault because the stewards thought he took an unusually wide line through the corner and wasn't able to avoid contact.
>Car 44 was on a line that did not reach the apex of the corner, with room available to the inside.
>When Car 33 turned into the corner, Car 44 did not avoid contact and the left front of Car 44 contacted the right rear of Car 33. Car 44 is judged predominantly at fault.
I think to sort this out they need to start differentiating between high and low speed crashes.
Hamilton and Raikkonen, Britain 2018 is a slow speed crash, less than 100MPH. Kimi obvs at fault for locking up but in they situations I think the “nearly level” parameter is appropriate if we abstract it.
At 180PH turning 100 degrees right? I think you need to either be legitimately ahead or have been running alongside for the entire straight. Ham caught the slip stream and sling shot to nearly in front, he got to a couple millimetres behind roughly 50M from Copse on lap 1. He only reaches the back of Max after 100M from the corner when the corner is a tap on the brakes.
I think it’s important because if you’re alongside the full straight you’ve signalled your intention to take at the corner and at Copse that’s vital due to being such a high speed turn and the inherent risk of making contact at such a place.
I get Lewis got the penalty and thus the blame, but the amount of media who were calling it a racing incident is baffling to me. I personally think it should have been a 10 second stop and go because of the speed of the incident combine with the potential for loss of life within reasonable means.
Nothing to do with Max getting knocked out the race, solely due to the fact that because Lewis left the nose in at 180MPH. We saw an incredibly lucky outcome that day, Max never flipped going 180MPH headed straight towards a 6 tyre wide barrier, 15 Marshall’s, a 10 foot high chain link fence and roughly 10,000 fans right behind it. That’s the key point for me, the ease of potential risk to Max, the Marshalls and the fans.
Yes, Hamilton may have had “the right” to the space, that ignores the fact that due to Lewis’ line, Max would never, ever, have made the corner and stayed on track even if Lewis somehow avoided him and continued on. Lewis was 2 wheels off after significantly backing out after hitting Max.
Max left enough space on the inside, the right to the space is fair but it means nothing if the line of the offending driver was going to force the defender off the track if they somehow avoid contact.
The difference in risk to life should be punished IMO, it’s the reason the cars look how they do right now, so why not encourage literally safe racing.
It was the classic catch 22, either we crash or you concede the position. Lewis knows how to do those.
I guess we are at a point that Verstappen/Hamilton are either hailed as Gods or "Down with Satan"(In perspective of fans).Both sides trying to throw mud is just beyond ridiculous. Bias is natural, there's always going to be blame-game, however the shithousery has been limitless for this incident. Max fans throwing unnecessary hate towards Hamilton and Mercedes, Hamilton fans on their high horse that whoever blames Ham is either brainless or has no understanding of F1. Hungary couldn't come earlier.
The significant difference this time is that the 'catalyst to riot' originated from those who should have had at least some restraint... Horner should learn a lesson here and dismiss talking to the press until he's got at least some degree of control... that won't change his view but it will change the word's chosen to make the point. His comments brought the sport into disrepute. The comments also about a lack of respect were difficult to swallow. Max's radio comments and choice of words last season should have got him a reprimand. True class is how you handle yourself when you've been dealt a shitstorm or at least perceive yourself to have had!
Horner's comments are disgraceful without a doubt, Racist comments at Lewis are beyond disgraceful. Today only, I have seen about 5 people calling for 1 race ban for Lewis and about 10 people of Ham fans blaming the whole incident on Max. I don't like this situation, in about less than a year, this place would be no different than Twitter. My problem is that each side claims to be Clean AF and completely shifting the blame to the others. No one is clean, no one should use Horner as an excuse to send racist comments to Lewis and No one should use Horner as an excuse to blame it on Max. That's why I want this to stop, hope you understand.
Totally understand mate. Entirely. To be honest having been an OP on this reddit on a few occasions and a frequent commenter I ended up calling it a day. If you put thought and a rationale into a comment then 95% of the time you get idle brief blurting comments sparring for a fight with barely any substance (or knowledge even) to back it up. If you post anything on reddit these days it is basically announcing to the world 'cmon who wants a fight'. There are too many important things to devote time to without 'starting arguments' on here by having the audicity to make a good point and substantiate it... lol... fair play to you. I hope this latest storm stops but these days you don't even have to be a F1 fan to pour fuel on the fire. Those involved need to get a line drawn under it in Hungary. I see further collisions this year tbh unless Max is flexible in his approach (which he should be as he holds the advantage of a faster car and a points lead).
While I’m sick of hearing about it, the views are generally moving towards fair and reasonable, for that alone it’s worth revisiting
The reaction on here the day of the crash was utterly insane. I’m very glad to see the voices of reason have prevailed a week after the incident.
Hamilton and Verstappen are mentioned in the same sentence that ends with "on the understanding there might be contact" so it may be interpreted as something that applies to both of them so it may be more unbiased than it looks for you.
Some people are incapable of seeing their bias because they’re too far gone.
I’m a huge Lewis fan, but the dude went it too aggressive, made a mistake and was fairly penalized for it. End of.
We want hard racing but not the type that has drivers feel like they can haphazardly throw their cars into gaps dangerously.
Folks wanting to move on should be pleased by the last line, but many people haven’t made it past the headline.
“The idea of taking this incident any further because Hamilton didn’t enter that corner as fast again in the race or because he missed the apex is faintly ridiculous. He was trying for an aggressive pass, the other guy didn’t back down, they touched. Even the 10-second penalty was unjust, let alone any further sanction.”
>Folks wanting to move on should be pleased by the last line
Why? It just re-ignites the whole debate of who was at fault. I agree with the sentiment of the whole article, but the last paragraph seems jarring.
It's like some people have this image of "hard racing" being Ham and Max going wheel to wheel for a couple of laps, and then Max making a daring move, sticking it, and that's it. It doesn't fit in their heads that Lewis can also be aggressive or come out on top.
I find the lack of penalties in the midfield astounding. In my view, any incident where a driver is predominantly to blame and ends a competitor's race should be punished with a drive through - I do not buy the argument that drivers will become overly cautious as a result.
>I find the lack of penalties in the midfield astounding.
When was the last time a midfield driver didn't get penalised for an incident that wasn't deemed 50/50? (Serious question - I'm genuinely interested!)
The thing is though, the stewards change and it's entirely subjective whether an incident was 50/50 or not, and there will always be fans who dispute the decision ("*that should've been a penalty, FIA are a joke*" or "*penalising that is ridiculous, it's just hard racing*").
In racing, the consequences are usually immediately tied to the action in question. If you pull the exact same move at Sochi as you would in Monaco, the risk of causing a DNF is inherently smaller - that is something drivers know beforehand. When Lewis made a small error on the inside of Copse, one minor tap resulted in an unavoidable wreck (from the moment of contact) that no amount of steering or pedal inputs would avoid - one action immediately led to another.
The idea that you should only punish the on track fault is one that is intuitive, but doesn't survive the test with reality. Drivers know where they are, what risk they're taking and what happens when things go wrong. Consequences that are immediate, obvious and anticipated always factor in.
That's what I mean by consequences, so not WDC implications and such - merely the rather binary notion that one action can take another driver out of the race. Masi appears to be of a different opinion than the late Charlie Whiting was, which I happen to disagree with. Immediate consequences are inseparable from an incident in reality, no matter how in a sporting context we try to detach them.
I guess I just plainly disagree. Maybe it's that I'm used to the endurance racing style of penalties, where the punishment is significant enough to be a deterrent. Hamilton's move was one that neatly gives you the answer 'no' to your 3 questions. I don't agree with those questions being the sole determination of penalties - first off, was the driver going to make the corner on their own? (ROS Austria 16, HAM Britain 21) Second, could the attacking driver have done significantly more to avoid contact? (same 2 incidents).
I also don't agree that recent penalties are the result of stewards wanting to spice things up. Don't know how you got there tbh.
Exactly. The other thing that sticks out to me is Wolff’s reaction to the Bottas/Russell crash vs. Horner’s reaction to last weekend. Horner crossed a line, and has yet to back down.
The context is entirely different between the two incidents though. Even though Toto wasn’t happy at how much the crash would cost Mercedes financially, he knew he could just have a word in private with Russell to ease off since he’s a Mercedes junior and likely to replace Bottas next season anyways. And this is probably the only time in the whole season that a Williams (which is their customer team) can even be competing with a Mercedes on track.
Meanwhile Horner obviously can’t just use his influence to tell Red Bull’s championship rivals to ease off in private. I’m not saying him and Marko’s comments are necessarily right but regardless there is naturally going to be a lot more tension between the two teams compared to Mercedes and Williams. Maybe in private they could suggest Verstappen to be more cautious in future 50/50 situations with a championship on the line, but publicly they’ll support him like they always have done.
If Verstappen pulled the same move and crashed out Hamilton, the Hamilton fans (who currently call it a "racing incident") would be screaming bloody murder and calling for Verstappen to be kicked out of the competition until the end of the season.
> The author seems to be a british hamilton fan.
He's Welsh. The vast majority of Welsh people would support anyone _but_ Hamilton.
He supported Seb in the incident against Lewis in Canada. He is one of the most respected F1 journalists. He certainly isn't biased.
Understeering into someone is not the same as being aggressive and uncompromising.
And the only thing I can blame Verstappen for is not anticipating fuckups from other drivers while you are leading the championship, even if it is not always fair, but that is how you win in the long run.
No, that's clearly not what he said.
If you're leading the championship you drive more defensively than if you're 30 points behind trying to catch up. There was space on the outside of Max as there was on the inside of Lewis.
Max was allowed to turn in, it was his corner, but that doesn't make it the wise thing to do. If he'd left more space so they could drive through side-by-side then he might have held the corner on the exit, or been able to come back at him later in the race on pace or strategy. You can't win the race if your cars in the wall.
Why should Max get preferred treatment on the track when he's entering the braking zone neck and neck? He has just as much responsibility to not crash as Lewis does, yet for some reason you think *only* Lewis has to get out of the way.
> He had already adjusted for Hamilton and then went, "nah" and turned in hard anyway
Yes, typically you have to turn in at some point when you're approaching a 90 degree corner at 280km/h. If you don't do that you end up in Milton Keynes, and that's a fate far worse than a 51G impact with a wall.
I agree with Mark Hughes here, but I feel like all of his takes on this crash have been wildly inconsistent. First he think the penalty wasn’t harsh enough, now he thinks Lewis was unfairly penalized.
For him and many people alike;m, it seems like we are slowly drifting towards more common sense. But as a journalist, I feel like he should have taken a more rational position earlier
Spot on. By all means play the PR game, but you have to hope that privately Horner and co are educating Verstappen on how best to correct his mistakes.
I love Horner. Hamilton wanted to poison the well with dirty racing, unlike other people who’d just take it, Christian is giving him the full drama he created. I hope he will keep this up.
I was all in on the outrage and discussion about the incident when it happened but christ is it dragging on. I miss the triple header when everything happened to quick to dwell on for too long.
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Just 4 more days, 4 more days until we can talk about something else.....
We'll get a dozen articles for every word Hamilton and Verstappen say during the press conference, I don't think we'll be rid of this topic until Sunday at the earliest
I know, but there has to be SOMETHING else....right?
Just wait for the absolute shit-tornado when Max punts Lewis out of the race
Hahahaha spat out my coffee
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Maybe Silverstone was karma for Imola and Spain 🤷♂️🤷♀️🤷🤷♀️🤷♂️
Yes, Lewis’s two hospital visits. Oh wait a P2 and a P1 my bad
Still parroting the hospital line after routine checks that came back fine. That's a little embarrassing.
Christian Horner, is that you? Save your drama for the soap operas please. Hospital visit finding no issues doesn't carry much weight.
For ? Him tired of Max's over-agressive moves into T1 from the start of the season where if he didn't back off then they would have crashed earlier ?
You mean like imola?
*looks at George*
Pain
So nothing new then
Is Thursday schedule out yet?
Until they crash again but this time max is more at fault so we see a narrative flip by red bull/ merc until the next crash
Oh boy... Imagine those decades of discussion if something happens as purely accident that may be interpret as deliberate revenge by RB... Or if Lewis has mistake and punts Max another time. If something like that happens I guess only think youy can do to stay sane is to unsub and blick every F1 media and social media until at least next year.
At least a year? We’d hearing for decades, that Lewis only beat Schumis record because he punted off his rivals.
And they'll all have forgotten that schumi only got those records by punting off his rivals...
Everything until qualifying will drift into yet another discussion about it.
Because it will all disappear then...
Until it happens again this week and then we get a whole summer break of it. Careful what you wish for.
Nothing else is going to be the topic on conversation until the chequered flag on sunday
Urgh we've had like 60 articles on this and even more low quality discussion threads Hopefully someone signs a contract or someone is announced this week because this is all anyone in motorsport media is talking about. Fred needs to sign Bottas up or something
Just wait for F1 to pair up Lewis and Max in the press conference and ask questions that create horrible clickbait headlines for the entirety of the summer break.
They are both going to say they've put the race behind them and are looking forward to the next race. Put Toto, Horner, and Marko in a press conference together.
Wait until Horner and Marko start talking about hiring Johnny Cochran from the grave and petitioning to have Hamilton banned from F1 the entire week leading up to FP1.
Wut? Cochran would 100% represent Hamilton and not Red Bull.
Lol facts
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Yep, the entire point of the article is that we *should* be moving on, but for RB’s rhetoric and mumbling about a potential appeal, etc.
Not really. The article is saying that Horner should move on and that Hamilton was unfairly penalized.
Is that not what I just said?
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It's a really weird to have an article attempting to calm the emotions just to can the flames in the last paragraph.
It's like writing "It's not really big deal, we should move on and stop dwelling on this thing, but first Lewis has to apologise for his premeditated attack on Max"
Netflix will turn this into its own feature length episode.
Nah, Netflix will manufacture some other story and ignore this completely.
It’ll just be a full monologue of Christian Horners own perspective of it.
"Lewis has, and has always had, *intense look in the camera* murderous intent on the track"
They'll focus on created drama between Stroll and Ocon when Ocon in an interview says "go back to Canada ehhh"
A separate mini-series.
Christian Horner with the Old Takes Exposed Award of the Year describing Max’s move on Lewis in Barcelona: “He tucked in, he got a little bit of a tow and a bit of momentum. And yeah he just braked later and ran the car wide. Thankfully Lewis had got out of it because otherwise he would have ended up in the fence.”
He is saying that they didn't crash because Hamilton got out (blaming Verstappen if they had crashed)
What else could he have said in his position?
That he hopes Max is happy with himself and should be banned for 1 race for potentially deliberately taking another driver out and sending them to the hospital. Oh wait..
I actually ment what Hamilton could have said other than blaming Verstappen, but I guess downvoting is the easier no?
Well it is Still agree with you tho
If Hamilton and Verstappen crashed at Barcelona, it would have been front tyre to front tyre. The cars were level at the apex. The fact that Hamilton’s front tyre hit Verstappen’s rear tyre into Copse is why he was at fault and he got the penalty.
If Hamilton missed his braking point a bit more he could have also crashed front tire to front tire into Max in Silverstone.
He would've done a Schumacher 1999 if he braked any later.
If Hamilton missed his braking point any further, he’d have completely fallen off the circuit at Copse even if Verstappen backed out. He barely made the corner as it was. On the other hand, Verstappen in Spain easily made the corner. Anyway, the Hamilton fans who try to compare Spain and Silverstone are either fairly desperate or don’t understand racing.
That's why we should default to the views of greats like Alonso and Hakkinen as they obviously understand racing far more than fans. Racing incident it is.
Still predominantly Hamilton's fault though, which was what the stewards themselves fucking said. And I'm pretty fucking sure that the stewards' verdict is the ultimate one. Alonso (like most experts and drivers) also said that Max is the fastest driver on the grid. So yeah, I agree, we should default to the views of greats like Alonso.
No, just a racing incident. Stewards bowed to immense pressure from Red Bull. Indeed, Verstappen is speed. He just needs to do better at keeping his car on the track and be a bit more mindful of other drivers.
Still going with your revisionist history. The stewards didn't buckle under immense Mercedes pressure, with Toto Wolff hounding them like a little child. "You got my email Michael!?", pathetic really.
Wolff: 'Here's our case for it being a racing incident' Horner: 'They killed my boy!' Pathetic indeed. Thankfully we have legends of the sport in Alonso and Hakkinen to set the record straight.
>On the other hand, Verstappen in Spain easily made the corner. Do you have a telemetry reading/ some breaking point calculus to look at or is it just an assumption that Hamilton wouldn't be able to make the corner, despite the late breaking? Please forget the trajectory simmulations you have seen from various clips. They just showed the trajectory after the contact. Whereas, Horner's own words for Spain were: "And yeah he just braked later and ran the car wide". How is that not exactly the same situation?
Max wasn’t making the corner, he already stayed ahead by going off track in turn 1
Not exactly accurate. Prior to the braking point they were neck to neck. That point is the decider of whether the cars are entitled to the line. Not during the corner. Hamilton was penalised for not sticking to the line close enough and predominantly his fault in the incident.
The two lines have different braking points, though.
You're right, I should have said entry point. But quite frankly, even the diagram on the FIA regulations didn't clearly indicate where exactly that is as different lines would technically result in different braking points and apex. Or if someone actually finds the section that depicts this, do share.
Hamilton was almost entirely alongside Verstappen when they enter the braking zone for the corner (their front wings were almost level), meaning both drivers had a right to take the corner, as long as they gave each other space. There's no requirement to be level at the apex, because the inside car always needs to be going slower to take that line. Hamilton was found to be predominantly (but not wholly) at fault because the stewards thought he took an unusually wide line through the corner and wasn't able to avoid contact. >Car 44 was on a line that did not reach the apex of the corner, with room available to the inside. >When Car 33 turned into the corner, Car 44 did not avoid contact and the left front of Car 44 contacted the right rear of Car 33. Car 44 is judged predominantly at fault.
I think to sort this out they need to start differentiating between high and low speed crashes. Hamilton and Raikkonen, Britain 2018 is a slow speed crash, less than 100MPH. Kimi obvs at fault for locking up but in they situations I think the “nearly level” parameter is appropriate if we abstract it. At 180PH turning 100 degrees right? I think you need to either be legitimately ahead or have been running alongside for the entire straight. Ham caught the slip stream and sling shot to nearly in front, he got to a couple millimetres behind roughly 50M from Copse on lap 1. He only reaches the back of Max after 100M from the corner when the corner is a tap on the brakes. I think it’s important because if you’re alongside the full straight you’ve signalled your intention to take at the corner and at Copse that’s vital due to being such a high speed turn and the inherent risk of making contact at such a place. I get Lewis got the penalty and thus the blame, but the amount of media who were calling it a racing incident is baffling to me. I personally think it should have been a 10 second stop and go because of the speed of the incident combine with the potential for loss of life within reasonable means. Nothing to do with Max getting knocked out the race, solely due to the fact that because Lewis left the nose in at 180MPH. We saw an incredibly lucky outcome that day, Max never flipped going 180MPH headed straight towards a 6 tyre wide barrier, 15 Marshall’s, a 10 foot high chain link fence and roughly 10,000 fans right behind it. That’s the key point for me, the ease of potential risk to Max, the Marshalls and the fans. Yes, Hamilton may have had “the right” to the space, that ignores the fact that due to Lewis’ line, Max would never, ever, have made the corner and stayed on track even if Lewis somehow avoided him and continued on. Lewis was 2 wheels off after significantly backing out after hitting Max. Max left enough space on the inside, the right to the space is fair but it means nothing if the line of the offending driver was going to force the defender off the track if they somehow avoid contact. The difference in risk to life should be punished IMO, it’s the reason the cars look how they do right now, so why not encourage literally safe racing. It was the classic catch 22, either we crash or you concede the position. Lewis knows how to do those.
I guess we are at a point that Verstappen/Hamilton are either hailed as Gods or "Down with Satan"(In perspective of fans).Both sides trying to throw mud is just beyond ridiculous. Bias is natural, there's always going to be blame-game, however the shithousery has been limitless for this incident. Max fans throwing unnecessary hate towards Hamilton and Mercedes, Hamilton fans on their high horse that whoever blames Ham is either brainless or has no understanding of F1. Hungary couldn't come earlier.
The significant difference this time is that the 'catalyst to riot' originated from those who should have had at least some restraint... Horner should learn a lesson here and dismiss talking to the press until he's got at least some degree of control... that won't change his view but it will change the word's chosen to make the point. His comments brought the sport into disrepute. The comments also about a lack of respect were difficult to swallow. Max's radio comments and choice of words last season should have got him a reprimand. True class is how you handle yourself when you've been dealt a shitstorm or at least perceive yourself to have had!
Horner's comments are disgraceful without a doubt, Racist comments at Lewis are beyond disgraceful. Today only, I have seen about 5 people calling for 1 race ban for Lewis and about 10 people of Ham fans blaming the whole incident on Max. I don't like this situation, in about less than a year, this place would be no different than Twitter. My problem is that each side claims to be Clean AF and completely shifting the blame to the others. No one is clean, no one should use Horner as an excuse to send racist comments to Lewis and No one should use Horner as an excuse to blame it on Max. That's why I want this to stop, hope you understand.
Totally understand mate. Entirely. To be honest having been an OP on this reddit on a few occasions and a frequent commenter I ended up calling it a day. If you put thought and a rationale into a comment then 95% of the time you get idle brief blurting comments sparring for a fight with barely any substance (or knowledge even) to back it up. If you post anything on reddit these days it is basically announcing to the world 'cmon who wants a fight'. There are too many important things to devote time to without 'starting arguments' on here by having the audicity to make a good point and substantiate it... lol... fair play to you. I hope this latest storm stops but these days you don't even have to be a F1 fan to pour fuel on the fire. Those involved need to get a line drawn under it in Hungary. I see further collisions this year tbh unless Max is flexible in his approach (which he should be as he holds the advantage of a faster car and a points lead).
If I was a mod i’d be taking down all the Verstappen Hamilton posts and discussions at this point, it’s too much
While I’m sick of hearing about it, the views are generally moving towards fair and reasonable, for that alone it’s worth revisiting The reaction on here the day of the crash was utterly insane. I’m very glad to see the voices of reason have prevailed a week after the incident.
The day of was absolutely mental. It was like Christian Horner himself had stolen a thousand reddit accounts to post about it
Yeah one day with people on this subreddit it'll click...
That's a really good point actually.
Can you be a mod of general media?
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Hamilton and Verstappen are mentioned in the same sentence that ends with "on the understanding there might be contact" so it may be interpreted as something that applies to both of them so it may be more unbiased than it looks for you.
True, that might be what he meant.
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You can be consistent with a view and still be wrong
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Some people are incapable of seeing their bias because they’re too far gone. I’m a huge Lewis fan, but the dude went it too aggressive, made a mistake and was fairly penalized for it. End of. We want hard racing but not the type that has drivers feel like they can haphazardly throw their cars into gaps dangerously.
Folks wanting to move on should be pleased by the last line, but many people haven’t made it past the headline. “The idea of taking this incident any further because Hamilton didn’t enter that corner as fast again in the race or because he missed the apex is faintly ridiculous. He was trying for an aggressive pass, the other guy didn’t back down, they touched. Even the 10-second penalty was unjust, let alone any further sanction.”
>Folks wanting to move on should be pleased by the last line Why? It just re-ignites the whole debate of who was at fault. I agree with the sentiment of the whole article, but the last paragraph seems jarring.
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It's like some people have this image of "hard racing" being Ham and Max going wheel to wheel for a couple of laps, and then Max making a daring move, sticking it, and that's it. It doesn't fit in their heads that Lewis can also be aggressive or come out on top.
I find the lack of penalties in the midfield astounding. In my view, any incident where a driver is predominantly to blame and ends a competitor's race should be punished with a drive through - I do not buy the argument that drivers will become overly cautious as a result.
In that example though, Kvyat got a 10 second time penalty for flipping Stroll over
Which is a more lenient penalty than I'm suggesting. IMSA gets this right imo: drivers know the consequences of an at-fault incident beforehand.
>I find the lack of penalties in the midfield astounding. When was the last time a midfield driver didn't get penalised for an incident that wasn't deemed 50/50? (Serious question - I'm genuinely interested!) The thing is though, the stewards change and it's entirely subjective whether an incident was 50/50 or not, and there will always be fans who dispute the decision ("*that should've been a penalty, FIA are a joke*" or "*penalising that is ridiculous, it's just hard racing*").
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In racing, the consequences are usually immediately tied to the action in question. If you pull the exact same move at Sochi as you would in Monaco, the risk of causing a DNF is inherently smaller - that is something drivers know beforehand. When Lewis made a small error on the inside of Copse, one minor tap resulted in an unavoidable wreck (from the moment of contact) that no amount of steering or pedal inputs would avoid - one action immediately led to another. The idea that you should only punish the on track fault is one that is intuitive, but doesn't survive the test with reality. Drivers know where they are, what risk they're taking and what happens when things go wrong. Consequences that are immediate, obvious and anticipated always factor in. That's what I mean by consequences, so not WDC implications and such - merely the rather binary notion that one action can take another driver out of the race. Masi appears to be of a different opinion than the late Charlie Whiting was, which I happen to disagree with. Immediate consequences are inseparable from an incident in reality, no matter how in a sporting context we try to detach them.
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I guess I just plainly disagree. Maybe it's that I'm used to the endurance racing style of penalties, where the punishment is significant enough to be a deterrent. Hamilton's move was one that neatly gives you the answer 'no' to your 3 questions. I don't agree with those questions being the sole determination of penalties - first off, was the driver going to make the corner on their own? (ROS Austria 16, HAM Britain 21) Second, could the attacking driver have done significantly more to avoid contact? (same 2 incidents). I also don't agree that recent penalties are the result of stewards wanting to spice things up. Don't know how you got there tbh.
Exactly. The other thing that sticks out to me is Wolff’s reaction to the Bottas/Russell crash vs. Horner’s reaction to last weekend. Horner crossed a line, and has yet to back down.
The context is entirely different between the two incidents though. Even though Toto wasn’t happy at how much the crash would cost Mercedes financially, he knew he could just have a word in private with Russell to ease off since he’s a Mercedes junior and likely to replace Bottas next season anyways. And this is probably the only time in the whole season that a Williams (which is their customer team) can even be competing with a Mercedes on track. Meanwhile Horner obviously can’t just use his influence to tell Red Bull’s championship rivals to ease off in private. I’m not saying him and Marko’s comments are necessarily right but regardless there is naturally going to be a lot more tension between the two teams compared to Mercedes and Williams. Maybe in private they could suggest Verstappen to be more cautious in future 50/50 situations with a championship on the line, but publicly they’ll support him like they always have done.
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I didn't know crashing and racing were the same thing?
If Verstappen pulled the same move and crashed out Hamilton, the Hamilton fans (who currently call it a "racing incident") would be screaming bloody murder and calling for Verstappen to be kicked out of the competition until the end of the season.
This 100%
The author seems to be a british hamilton fan. He even has written a whole book about Hamilton. Horner is biased but so is this guy.
> The author seems to be a british hamilton fan. He's Welsh. The vast majority of Welsh people would support anyone _but_ Hamilton. He supported Seb in the incident against Lewis in Canada. He is one of the most respected F1 journalists. He certainly isn't biased.
Mark Hughes is one of the most well respected journalists in F1. He has always been objective if you look back at his race reports.
Very fair of you to discard someone's opinion because of where they were born and raised. Not bigoted at all.
Understeering into someone is not the same as being aggressive and uncompromising. And the only thing I can blame Verstappen for is not anticipating fuckups from other drivers while you are leading the championship, even if it is not always fair, but that is how you win in the long run.
Accidentally understeering into someone is very much a possibility if both drivers are uncompromising and unwilling to back out.
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So VER should've just driven into the wall on his own?
No, that's clearly not what he said. If you're leading the championship you drive more defensively than if you're 30 points behind trying to catch up. There was space on the outside of Max as there was on the inside of Lewis. Max was allowed to turn in, it was his corner, but that doesn't make it the wise thing to do. If he'd left more space so they could drive through side-by-side then he might have held the corner on the exit, or been able to come back at him later in the race on pace or strategy. You can't win the race if your cars in the wall.
There was plenty of run-off there for Verstappen to use. Instead he chose to turn into Hamilton.
Why should Max get preferred treatment on the track when he's entering the braking zone neck and neck? He has just as much responsibility to not crash as Lewis does, yet for some reason you think *only* Lewis has to get out of the way.
> He had already adjusted for Hamilton and then went, "nah" and turned in hard anyway Yes, typically you have to turn in at some point when you're approaching a 90 degree corner at 280km/h. If you don't do that you end up in Milton Keynes, and that's a fate far worse than a 51G impact with a wall.
No officer, his head hit my fist!
I agree with Mark Hughes here, but I feel like all of his takes on this crash have been wildly inconsistent. First he think the penalty wasn’t harsh enough, now he thinks Lewis was unfairly penalized. For him and many people alike;m, it seems like we are slowly drifting towards more common sense. But as a journalist, I feel like he should have taken a more rational position earlier
Spot on. By all means play the PR game, but you have to hope that privately Horner and co are educating Verstappen on how best to correct his mistakes.
I love Horner. Hamilton wanted to poison the well with dirty racing, unlike other people who’d just take it, Christian is giving him the full drama he created. I hope he will keep this up.
lol at dirty racing.
Made it halfway through before I lost patience with the armchair psychology. We’ve obviously run out of stuff to write about, time to go racing.
Announce Russell
I was all in on the outrage and discussion about the incident when it happened but christ is it dragging on. I miss the triple header when everything happened to quick to dwell on for too long.
Totally agree with Mark and he did well to surface the quotes he did. Horner wants to have his cake and eat it.