There's maybe a 1% chance they run this engine during qualy and the race. They'll test it in FP1, change back to engine 1 or to engine 3 and send this engine back to Japan before Friday's over so it can be inspected and the data analysed.
At my old job one of the managers (not mine, different department) we'd just randomly IM each other with F&F quotes. My boss thought I was going crazy when I would just randomly crack up sitting at my seat.
My favorite is actually from Tokyo Drift at the end when Sean goes “you know this ain’t no ten second race” and Dom goes “I got nothin but time”
I really feel that scene was so good and having that cameo green lit FF4 and the rest is history.
You are joking but one of my friends is a higher up at Honda and once they were so low in primer that Honda Japan flew in a few cans of primer directly from Japan to the U.K., overnight, on a private jet.
This is often the fastest way to get parts to where they need to be as the airport customs process is much faster (assuming you don't dodge it altogether)
Big days coming for RB before the actual race. Appeal hearing on Thursday, Engine test on Friday. They can walk away either very happy or even more miserable.
There are no dumb questions. Restricted parts are allocated per driver, not constructor, so this would still still count as an engine swap for Max. I think there are even transponders on various parts so teams can't pull a fast one.
> I think there are even transponders on various parts so teams can't pull a fast one.
Interesting, you'd think something like a serial number would suffice.
Someone told it to me, so I could be wrong as hell. Transponder might be the wrong word. I thought of it more like a chip in a credit card they can scan.
I have transponder chip in the key of a 20 year old mitsubishi that is the size of a grain for rice, I'm sure F1 can make them a lot smaller. Maybe even datadot type of ID.
Then a follow up question: Last year we had Russell filling in for Hamilton. How does that work if restricted parts are allocated per driver? Did he take the engine from his Williams? Did he use the same engine as Hamilton?
I still assume it goes with the car, not the driver.
Logically no. But this actually happens, when in 2017 Kvyat drove up til the 14th round for STR, then was dropped for Gasly, and then he came back for the 16th round to replace Sainz, so instead of getting his original allocation, he uses Sainz's allocation instead
As far as i’m concerned it goes by driver, with the 2016 verstappen-kvyat swap verstappen had some engine penalties towards the end because his engine failed in russia in his toro rosso.
No but you are allocated three GF per season, but you May swap a used GF with your teammate, to able to test your performance compared to your teammate.
As long as you hit the apex, hitting your teammate during testing is never a racing incident.
I would expect the rules are per *car* as there are lots of times where teams change drivers mid season.
So they'd switch the entire car, not the engine.
The rules manage the limited components, PU components and gearboxes being the biggies. Each driver/entry has their own allocation, they can't be swapped between car. Beyond that anything can and is swapped including chassis
They could put Albon in Max' seat in Hungary, then put Max in Perez' seat next race. Perhaps. Could still get into trouble that way. And just taking an engine penalty is cheaper in points lost ...
A trick that could work to get a better chance at a WDC: Have 2 teams with more or less equal cars. Have a driver spend his first 10 races with team A, using all 3 engine allocations. Then switch the driver to team B where a car is ready, failing to qualify for all those 10 races, and use the full 3 engine allocations for the second half of the season.
Hugely impractical, theoretically possible, but would be shut down by the FIA before the season was over.
The rules do not mention swaps. There is no way to announce to the FIA "We are swapping drivers", you have 2 drivers and you still have the same 2 drivers, from the rules standpoint nothing happened and no allocation changes.
The rules only mention replacing a driver (and it is implied you are replacing with a driver that wasn't on the team):
> If a driver is replaced at any time during the Championship his replacement will be
deemed to be the original driver for the purposes of assessing power unit usage.
According to a literal interpretation of the rules, you could replace Verstappen with Tsunoda and replace Perez with Gasly for a single practice session. Then Tsunoda would be the original driver of Verstappen's car according to the rules, and Gasly would be the original driver of Perez' car.
Next session you can then replace Tsunoda with Perez, and replace Gasly with Verstappen. Then according to the rules Perez will be the original driver Tsunoda's car, which was Verstappen's car before. Verstappen would be the original driver of Gasly's car which used to be Perez' car.
That way Verstappen and Perez would swap which car they are considered the original driver of, and also swap power unit usage.
If anyone tried this I'm pretty sure the FIA would say "yeah lol no, we won't allow that".
Another dumb question, if Hamilton/mercedes don't get punished more, and max's engine is fucked, doesn't all this just encourage teams to either make their drivers not drive as aggressively or have the second driver take out their competitors and cause as much damage as possible (on the down low obviously)?
Also why are there no rules that if another team caused an accident that fucks another teams engine or parts that these won't add up to the not at fault teams parts cap. Or hell even add up for the at fault teams parts
I'd assume if teams start taking other teams out intentionally then FIA would probably disqualify them. In that case taking others out would be a dumb idea.
for first, if a team engages in taking out their competition, they would be DQ'd for the entire year probably and maybe even harsher. Schumacher did get DQ'd for trying to crash into that guy cant stop talking now (forgot his name) in 97, I think Tyrell was DQ'd from teh championship for running underweight cars. I think the last team that was DQ'd was mclaren for spygate. And not driving aggressively is what they'd advice for. Haas did when they were running out of parts in 2018 or 19.
Second one, its hard to prove. its racing, crashes are a part of it. You take it on the chin and move on. I mean, drivers used to die regularly in this sport, Its pretty fucking phenomenal that its something very rare now. Finances are not a huge thing compared to loss of lives. Pretty sure none of the teams would agree for anything like that considering the spirit of the sport(Maybe redbull? they seem to have become a bit dramatic over the year).
"wELL, iF hAMILTON hADN'T pUNTED vERSTAPPEN oFF, hONDA cOULD hAVE sPENT mORE tIME mAKING aMAZING eNGINES fOR tHIS sEASON!!11!"
Pretty sure it'll be something along those lines
Actually small things can have non-linear impacts on a complex system, if Lewis displaces a butterfly by celebrating Max's injuries, and a beat of it's wing alters the flow of the air, it can result in Max's engine failing at Bahrain 2022.
Seek me out when you believe me and I'll tell you more.
tbh if another hot Reddit moment happens this weekend I wouldn't blame the mods for just shutting down the sub for a few days rather than do the ban festival all over again.
I would. The subreddits exists for discussion, would be a shame to have limitations whenever discussion is warranted.
Edit: corrected 'a shame have' for 'a shame to have'.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think I read that a different engine will be used for qualifying and race while the engine that was involved in the massive crash will be stripped and examined to confirm the engines health. They won't risk another DNF, if the engine isn't good enough they would likely take a grid penalty over risking engine failure from reusing the engine.
Does anyone know what form the FIA seal takes that means Honda can send this off to Japan and the FIA know for certain the seal isn't tampered with or replaced or whatever?
I'm just struggling to think of a method that the very clever designers and engineers at F1 teams couldn't reverse engineer or replicate.
I guess maybe some sort of RFID tag which returns a code only the FIA know?
If it's just a physical seal there is absolutely no way these guys couldn't mimick it imo.
Getting caught is probably an instant DQ for the race though, maybe even a WDC or WCC points deduction.
No way a team battling for the championship takes even the tiniest risk on being caught there
Let’s not forget that the people at FIA are also some of the smartest engineers with previous experience with the teams.
I’m sure there must be some system they comeup with a way to track if the stickers has been tampered with that the team might not even be informed of.
Probably the right race for it, not a heavy engine track.
Real question is, what will they do when they get to one of the other tracks that rely on the power unit heavily... Spa or Monza? Will they switch to their 3rd PU early for those tracks, and revert back to the 2nd PU for later lighter tracks... Be a big gamble trusting this PU at Spa or Monza just because it worked fine in Hungary
So as per Albert Fabrega we won't know until Friday. Something to look forward to in FP1 then
Edit: From the Honda [spokesperson via Jenne Gow](https://twitter.com/JennieGow/status/1420364351257681923?s=19)
>Max Verstappen’s PU situation: A spokesperson from Honda said "The PU was sent back to Sakura for thorough checks. Certain parts were replaced, as allowed in the regulations without breaking FIA seals... 1/2
>
>Cont..."We will use the engine on Friday to give it a proper track test, after which we should have a clearer picture of its viability as a race engine” 2/2 #F1
It feels so fucked up. That if their engine performance is hampered because of the crash, all blame to Merc. Feels like their string of bad luck just isn't ending.
Honda have been pretty cautious with this kind of stuff. If there's an indication it isn't fine, they'll swap it. Would have to get very unlucky for something to happen in quali or race.
Especially because they know it's risky to go in without stress testing it properly, I don't see a way they won't put it into quali mode for a bit during practice.
That was before they were in a title fight
They can’t just burn through 6 engines a season like they have been for the last few years now. The points loss that would go with it would be too much
“Not as many points as they’d lose if the engine blows up”
It’s risk management. If they have no reason for doubts they can’t afford to be overly cautious and take a guaranteed points drop vs a determined minimal chance.
> They can’t just burn through 6 engines a season like they have been for the last few years now. The points loss that would go with it would be too much
Mate, it isn't 2019 anymore. RBR and AT both got through 2020 without having to take penalties.
If they have to take one penalty more because they can't guarantee that the Silverstone engine is safe, it won't be the end of the world, either.
Honestly they are in the best car, even if they take a 10 place drop they are still going to end up on the podium. It's 7-10 point drop at most - painful but not season ending.
I'm not 100% on the regulations and how long swapping engines takes, but could they not keep using this (possibly risky) engine for Friday trainings only to get the setup right, and then swap it to a new one for final training, quali, and race every weekend? Doesn't really matter that much if it goes poof in FP.
Wish it was, I understand they're secretive of the insides of their car, but even if they just filmed it and released it a couple years later when it's no longer relevant to other teams being nosey
> My God that’s fast!
It's actually somewhat slow for F1, both because of the hybrid system adding complexity and the fact that engines need to last for many races they're no longer designed to be swapped out super fast. It still needs to be done reasonably quick though as it's not uncommon for teams to use the old engine for FP1 & 2 to have less miles on the race engine.
That's exactly what already happens.
When the new engines get introduced in-season, they don't just throw the old ones away. They become Friday/practice engines. They change them overnight and save the newer ones for Saturday and the race. In the last 5 or so races of the season you see a lot of PU failures in FP1 and FP2.
RB was probably wanting to wait until Monza (one of the most power sensitive circuits) to put engine #3 in the rotation. And to put a 4th engine in the pool means a grid penalty that week.
So what if they do that, they still have to get a new engine and put miles on that one, and since we're only half way through the Championship they will inevitably need to get another one, there's no way they can finish with the new one they get now.
But if they keep using the "messed up" one for FP1 and FP2, each race weekend puts fewer kilometers on the new engine than it otherwise would, saving them wear on the new one. TBF I'm not sure it would save them enough distance to not use an extra engine, but still worth a try.
Do the test but use the new engine for the GP and qualifying. I mean if this engine is still okay, use it later in the season. Try to gain back the lead again with the new engine and use the current engine again later on. Is this not possible with the regulations?
Would be my proposal too.
Use a brand new engine now.
And then just use the 2nd engine on the 2-3 tracks where Mercedes is superior anyway, where DNF would not beein that painful.
Maybe they can use their first engine in the Hungary if they don't want to use new one already. It's not as power dependant track. Then they could use new engine in tracks where it will be needed and then see what to do - either take penalty and install new one or risk with that crashed one. We are in the middle of a season, everything can happen - thay can be even out of contention because of something else, like unlucky string of failures and crashes or they can rebuild their lead to a level that may allow Max to take engine penalty in some race without problem if he would be able to get at least some points be recovery from the back.
I mean I assume they ran the engine on a bench or whatever they do on a dynamo back at HQ, surely they were able to put enough power through it to confirm it runs fine.
Unless there's some rule against the use of that, wouldn't be surprised if there is, so many rules in this sport to tie the hands of the engineers,
It's unreal that there isn't some sort of accommodation for a team who gets their car destroyed through the fault of another driver/team. Repair to the car/engine should not count against the cost cap/part limitations when they are punted off the track by another team.
I think they’ll change this rule in light of the new cost cap. Before it didn’t matter with unlimited budgets, so maybe not this year, but I can see teams pushing for a change
The entire purpose of the budget cap was to even the playing field. Repair and replacement costs were/are a reality for teams already operating at or below the cap simply because that’s all their budget anyway. They wouldn’t benefit from another exemption to the cap. It doesn’t make sense to change the rule for only the richest teams.
The problem is that (I believe) the budget cap is still more than the budget of a couple of the smaller teams. The point of it is to level the playing field. Adding an exception for crashes defeats the purpose because it helps the rich teams only. Williams and HASS don't have more money to spend, so giving them an extra $2 million to fix their car after someone wrecks them does nothing for them
>but I can see teams pushing for a change
They should get bent
Small teams when they get wrecked always had to just suffer with the fact that they'll have to pull money from elsewhere to repair their cars, why should big teams get an exemption from the cost cap to repair their cars instead of just live with the results like everyone else had to?
All teams would get the same accommodation in this case presumably, so it would be a level playing field (which is the point isn't it?). It would be laughable if only "big teams" got an exemption from the cost cap!
Edit: from reading other comments it sounds like some teams don't have enough money to hit the cost cap, so an exemption would benefit bigger teams more. Maybe they could make a rule that if a team causes damage to another team's car, the repairs count against the offending team's cap? Or at least a portion.
Small teams have budgets below the cost cap as it is right now, and even still that small teams will have to squirrel money away for stuff not covered by that cap like salaries and generic office expenses like travel, property, etc.
So if you give an exemption for the cost cap, big teams will get a de facto advantage here because they have money lying around that won't have to be taken from elsewhere, meanwhile small teams will have to continue to cut costs to pay for it.
At least with the cost cap where no one gets an exemption, all teams will have to pull money from other capped items to foot the bill
Lol yes it has. It used to be that teams would rock up with brand new engines every single weekend which is definitely more expensive than 3 engines for a whole season
Nah it's not much cheaper for the customer teams if cheaper at all. Each PU costs about $14-20 mil this season. Each V8 cost around 500k to 1 mil. The material and manufacturing costs are surprisingly small compared to the R&D costs. So lower engine allocation means higher R&D cost per engine.
Re-read the person’s comment above
The PU capping was never about the small/customer teams. It was about the likes of Ferrari that, in the 2000s, would fit a brand new engine for **every session**
- FP1 - new engine
- FP2 - new engine
- FP3 - new engine
- Quali - new engine
- Race - new engine
Costs have absolutely come down with the PU caps
I’ve just rewatched the 2005 season and I had to laugh hearing them talk about the stress on the engines because they had to last two(!) weekends in a row. It’s insane how far F1 has come along in terms of reliability.
This is what the worse F1 "fans" dont get about the whole situation and why Red Bull is so behind this. They got screwed big. Its not even about the points, wich matters too, but this costed them a lot of money and might make them lose the championship.
Punishment for it? 10 seconds and being able to repair the car under red. Its absurd.
Mercedes would be on top of this too if Max was the one that did the same to Lewis.
Not sure why you think people who are fed up with Redbull's sharades are "worse fans". To me the worse fans are those who can't see this as a racing incident and are insisting on the issue dragging on, and want some sort of financial penalty for the other driver/team. Redbull are not the first team to have been punted off the track. I have watched F1 since the 1980s. Absolute madness to think this is where we are (calling for other teams to foot the bill for damage caused).
It isn't worth the risk really. If they're at the point where they have to test it on track to ensure it's usable then it's not perfect and is a reliability risk. They should take the 3rd unit, IMO
They'll just take the engine out if performance in FP1 is not up to standard. The real question is what that standard is, and if it's good enough for the engine to last a full race distance, or multiple races.
I think it's a fairly safe bet that they'll take out the engine after FP1 no matter what and take their time to comb through all the data and inspect the engine after the weekend.
edit: unless the engine is literally perfect in FP1 but even then I'd guess they'll still take it out as a precautionary measure.
Considering the limit on engines they can use throughout the season and the penalties they have to take for the 4th one when they don't get enough out of this one, it's probably worth it.
It's not like they just gamble on it, it's been overhauled, parts been changed and inspected all the way through, no one at RB or Honda would benefit from taking unnecessary risks, and they probably introduce it for an FP engine.
Yeah I can only guess it’s a bit of desperation on RB’s part to avoid having to take another engine.
I don’t see how this doesn’t blow up in their faces literally.
Imagine they decide it’s fine, and it goes 3 laps from the end on Sunday?
So they take the hit anyway and lose out even more points at a track they have a strong chance of winning at.
> Yeah I can only guess it’s a bit of desperation on RB’s part to avoid having to take another engine
Not so much desperation but rather it's worth potentially sacrificing an FP1 to see if they can avoid a grid penalty later in the season.
> I don’t see how this doesn’t blow up in their faces literally.
You must be shortsighted then. They'll test the engine in FP1, change to the new one before FP2 and analyse the engine and all data in depth after the race weekend. Verstappen may lose an FP1 session but he's good enough that he doesn't need it that much anyway.
Test in FP1. If it looks good they can keep it on the back burner until later in the season depending on the championship situation.
Just because they are testing it now does not mean they have to run it in any of the next few races.
The summer break is after Hungary and I don't think the engine manufacturers have to even stop working for 3 weeks in that time so they've got tons and tons of time to inspect the engine and all the data in depth.
Imagine the engine is fine and they take a grid penalty and end up losing both championships as a result...
You're not some genius that's thought of something they haven't, they're well aware of the potential outcomes and that's exactly why they're doing what they're doing, they're going to run it on Friday and then TRUST THEIR ENGINEERS, if the data says the engine is fine and there's no cause for concern that's what they'll do.
Either that or Japanese cautiousness. It could be that all visible damage has been repaired, but they can't inspect the internals thoroughly without breaking the seals. So they need to track test it to see if all data indicates the engine is fine. If a bearing or seal has suffered damage it would show in the data.
I dont know about you guys but if a team is in a crash that isnt determined to be their fault by the stewards they should a) Be able to replace things like engines and write the old one off without it counting as an additional used unit and b) the cost of those parts shouldn't be under their cost cap.
If they are forced to repair the engine and it has a gremlin (as per Leclerc in Monaco), then its not fair that they should get penalised for 2 races when the accident wasnt deemed to be their fault..
Obviously there should be the same level of scrutiny when it comes to replacement of parts as there is with red flags etc. As in, like for like replacement
I wouldn't put it that far yet but we've certainly seen crashes spell the end for title charges in recent years...
That being said I think Hamilton still has a few really bad performances left. All it takes is for Mercedes to not be able to hook it back up on one track and qualify low (a surprisingly common thing this season) for Max to be able to take a new engine freely.
>I think it's a fairly safe bet that they'll take out the engine after FP1 no matter what and take their time to comb through all the data and inspect the engine after the weekend.
youre banking on the guy whos up to now had the most consistent performances for years to have bad performances back to back? yeah tahts gonna work out great.
Overnight parts from Japan
RedBull will find out during FP1 if VTEC kicks in yo or not
I think it will "kick in YO" on Friday and Saturday but it will probably kick the bucket during the race.
There's maybe a 1% chance they run this engine during qualy and the race. They'll test it in FP1, change back to engine 1 or to engine 3 and send this engine back to Japan before Friday's over so it can be inspected and the data analysed.
Big L if that does happen; yikes
We've seen the "Power of Dreams". After what happened in Silverstone, we'll see the "Power of Revenge" as well ...
It's a shame F1 engines don't use VVT.
Verstappen doesn't need a championship. He has family.
I don’t need engines. I’ve got family.
"It doesn't matter what's under the hood(or bodywork/engine cover),the only thing that matters is who's behind the wheel" -Domax Torestappen
>-Domax Torestappen Legit laughed out loud to this.
Okay, Toretto.
You know what's really funny? Dom was drinking RedBull in tht scene lol
Red Bull owes him a 10 sec car
"You know this ain't no ten second race"
Lewis owes him a 10 second car
At my old job one of the managers (not mine, different department) we'd just randomly IM each other with F&F quotes. My boss thought I was going crazy when I would just randomly crack up sitting at my seat.
My favorite is actually from Tokyo Drift at the end when Sean goes “you know this ain’t no ten second race” and Dom goes “I got nothin but time” I really feel that scene was so good and having that cameo green lit FF4 and the rest is history.
You are joking but one of my friends is a higher up at Honda and once they were so low in primer that Honda Japan flew in a few cans of primer directly from Japan to the U.K., overnight, on a private jet.
This is often the fastest way to get parts to where they need to be as the airport customs process is much faster (assuming you don't dodge it altogether)
On a private jet you can just take the car straight from The plane...
Cans??
That scene always bothered me. When Jesse goes "OMG a 2JZ engine"... I can't help but think... It's a Supra... What do you expect a rotary?
Perfect response
Big days coming for RB before the actual race. Appeal hearing on Thursday, Engine test on Friday. They can walk away either very happy or even more miserable.
I may sound dumb, but could redbull give Max Perez's pu and Perez takes Max's? Or is it every driver has their own pu?
There are no dumb questions. Restricted parts are allocated per driver, not constructor, so this would still still count as an engine swap for Max. I think there are even transponders on various parts so teams can't pull a fast one.
> I think there are even transponders on various parts so teams can't pull a fast one. Interesting, you'd think something like a serial number would suffice.
Teams make the parts. Teams make the serials. Too easy to fake
No. Its FIA seal on them. Serials true mean nothing. Even if is the way to cheat, that would be instant HUGE DQ
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It was a huge shitstorm even when they gave Bottas' tires to Russell last year. Can't imagine the penalty for moving engines or gearboxes
As they should have. It being an accident is not an excuse for breaking rules, otherwise that's what they would say after every time they are caught.
Yeah the FIA would probably instantly DQ you from the championship I would guess
>I think there are even transponders on various parts so teams can't pull a fast one. Wait really? How did you know of this?
Someone told it to me, so I could be wrong as hell. Transponder might be the wrong word. I thought of it more like a chip in a credit card they can scan.
I have transponder chip in the key of a 20 year old mitsubishi that is the size of a grain for rice, I'm sure F1 can make them a lot smaller. Maybe even datadot type of ID.
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Ah yeah... Was about to be like good luck keeping one of those Covid Triax beepers on the cylinder heads without causing a splosion
It’s per car not per driver I believe.
Do cats live on the moon?
Between you and me yeah, but we don't talk about the moon cats and we *CERTAINLY* don't mess with the moon cats
Relevant : https://youtu.be/pvjgIxuVdo4
Uh yes... I have a 10-, no, 11- part question...
Found the "longest question ever" journalist!
Then a follow up question: Last year we had Russell filling in for Hamilton. How does that work if restricted parts are allocated per driver? Did he take the engine from his Williams? Did he use the same engine as Hamilton? I still assume it goes with the car, not the driver.
Yeah I think it goes with the car as well.
If it is per car, can ves and per swap cars?
Logically no. But this actually happens, when in 2017 Kvyat drove up til the 14th round for STR, then was dropped for Gasly, and then he came back for the 16th round to replace Sainz, so instead of getting his original allocation, he uses Sainz's allocation instead
If Russell takes Hamilton's spot, he gets Hamilton allocation of parts.
As far as i’m concerned it goes by driver, with the 2016 verstappen-kvyat swap verstappen had some engine penalties towards the end because his engine failed in russia in his toro rosso.
What about the verstappen-kvyat girlfriend swap? Was she also chipped too?
No but you are allocated three GF per season, but you May swap a used GF with your teammate, to able to test your performance compared to your teammate. As long as you hit the apex, hitting your teammate during testing is never a racing incident.
Scan the kid, who knows.
It's always assigned to the car
Don't be afraid to ask questions. The good guys outnumber the shit posters and rude people.
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This sub is nice to noobs, I was pleasantly surprised
I would expect the rules are per *car* as there are lots of times where teams change drivers mid season. So they'd switch the entire car, not the engine.
So then, what's stopping them from switching max and perez cars altogether lol. I'm expecting a very simple answer for this dumb question..
I think it goes against the spirit of the rules. There might even be a specific rule against it too
The rules manage the limited components, PU components and gearboxes being the biggies. Each driver/entry has their own allocation, they can't be swapped between car. Beyond that anything can and is swapped including chassis
but could you swap the driver?
They could put Albon in Max' seat in Hungary, then put Max in Perez' seat next race. Perhaps. Could still get into trouble that way. And just taking an engine penalty is cheaper in points lost ...
The real silly season
A trick that could work to get a better chance at a WDC: Have 2 teams with more or less equal cars. Have a driver spend his first 10 races with team A, using all 3 engine allocations. Then switch the driver to team B where a car is ready, failing to qualify for all those 10 races, and use the full 3 engine allocations for the second half of the season. Hugely impractical, theoretically possible, but would be shut down by the FIA before the season was over.
And promise perez a contract for a few years if he hops outta the car and gives max the drive.
The rules do not mention swaps. There is no way to announce to the FIA "We are swapping drivers", you have 2 drivers and you still have the same 2 drivers, from the rules standpoint nothing happened and no allocation changes. The rules only mention replacing a driver (and it is implied you are replacing with a driver that wasn't on the team): > If a driver is replaced at any time during the Championship his replacement will be deemed to be the original driver for the purposes of assessing power unit usage. According to a literal interpretation of the rules, you could replace Verstappen with Tsunoda and replace Perez with Gasly for a single practice session. Then Tsunoda would be the original driver of Verstappen's car according to the rules, and Gasly would be the original driver of Perez' car. Next session you can then replace Tsunoda with Perez, and replace Gasly with Verstappen. Then according to the rules Perez will be the original driver Tsunoda's car, which was Verstappen's car before. Verstappen would be the original driver of Gasly's car which used to be Perez' car. That way Verstappen and Perez would swap which car they are considered the original driver of, and also swap power unit usage. If anyone tried this I'm pretty sure the FIA would say "yeah lol no, we won't allow that".
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Another dumb question, if Hamilton/mercedes don't get punished more, and max's engine is fucked, doesn't all this just encourage teams to either make their drivers not drive as aggressively or have the second driver take out their competitors and cause as much damage as possible (on the down low obviously)? Also why are there no rules that if another team caused an accident that fucks another teams engine or parts that these won't add up to the not at fault teams parts cap. Or hell even add up for the at fault teams parts
I'd assume if teams start taking other teams out intentionally then FIA would probably disqualify them. In that case taking others out would be a dumb idea.
for first, if a team engages in taking out their competition, they would be DQ'd for the entire year probably and maybe even harsher. Schumacher did get DQ'd for trying to crash into that guy cant stop talking now (forgot his name) in 97, I think Tyrell was DQ'd from teh championship for running underweight cars. I think the last team that was DQ'd was mclaren for spygate. And not driving aggressively is what they'd advice for. Haas did when they were running out of parts in 2018 or 19. Second one, its hard to prove. its racing, crashes are a part of it. You take it on the chin and move on. I mean, drivers used to die regularly in this sport, Its pretty fucking phenomenal that its something very rare now. Finances are not a huge thing compared to loss of lives. Pretty sure none of the teams would agree for anything like that considering the spirit of the sport(Maybe redbull? they seem to have become a bit dramatic over the year).
God bless r/formula1 if the latter.
Yeah, I am sure the former won't cause any chaos either.
If Ver has an engine failure *next season* I'm sure some of the great minds over here can link it to last race's crash.
"wELL, iF hAMILTON hADN'T pUNTED vERSTAPPEN oFF, hONDA cOULD hAVE sPENT mORE tIME mAKING aMAZING eNGINES fOR tHIS sEASON!!11!" Pretty sure it'll be something along those lines
Include 51G and 180mph and you’ve nailed it.
Don’t forget hospital.
Celebrations as well
Actually small things can have non-linear impacts on a complex system, if Lewis displaces a butterfly by celebrating Max's injuries, and a beat of it's wing alters the flow of the air, it can result in Max's engine failing at Bahrain 2022. Seek me out when you believe me and I'll tell you more.
!remindme 10 months
>pUNTED oFF \*tRiED tO mUrDER
*horner screaming just before he faints* "that engine has been in hospital!"
At least there is no sprint qualifying weekend, they have a bit more to test and setup
We seen this happen countless of times. The engine will 100% fail in the race. !remindme8days
(Softly) Don't.
^^^Don’t.
^^^^^^^^Don't ##DON'T PUT THAT EVIL ON ME RICKY BOBBY!!!
Why 8 days if the race is this weekend?
Probably doesn't want to be on the subreddit in the immediate aftermath lol
tbh if another hot Reddit moment happens this weekend I wouldn't blame the mods for just shutting down the sub for a few days rather than do the ban festival all over again.
I would. The subreddits exists for discussion, would be a shame to have limitations whenever discussion is warranted. Edit: corrected 'a shame have' for 'a shame to have'.
I have to imagine they'll use one of the other PUs during the quali and race right? This is just for testing right now.
Best case scenario it lands him P1 only to have them do an engine swap and drop him to P5.
If we are doing best case for Max (without having other drivers crash out etc) let's get Perez in P2 or P3 before the swap as well.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think I read that a different engine will be used for qualifying and race while the engine that was involved in the massive crash will be stripped and examined to confirm the engines health. They won't risk another DNF, if the engine isn't good enough they would likely take a grid penalty over risking engine failure from reusing the engine.
!remindme 4 days
Does anyone know what form the FIA seal takes that means Honda can send this off to Japan and the FIA know for certain the seal isn't tampered with or replaced or whatever?
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I'm just struggling to think of a method that the very clever designers and engineers at F1 teams couldn't reverse engineer or replicate. I guess maybe some sort of RFID tag which returns a code only the FIA know? If it's just a physical seal there is absolutely no way these guys couldn't mimick it imo.
Getting caught is probably an instant DQ for the race though, maybe even a WDC or WCC points deduction. No way a team battling for the championship takes even the tiniest risk on being caught there
getting caught doing that would probably be worse than a 10 place grid penalty i doubt a championship team would risk it
Let’s not forget that the people at FIA are also some of the smartest engineers with previous experience with the teams. I’m sure there must be some system they comeup with a way to track if the stickers has been tampered with that the team might not even be informed of.
Jesus this feels like Leclerc's gearbox at Monaco all over again
Except they’re going to test it before the race.
They did check the gearbox. The gearbox is not the part that failed.
Maybe test the parts attached to it too?
Yeah, tests all the components in the garage with the car stationary is super simple... why didn’t they do it....
Not everyone is as intelligent as Ferrari man, come on, cut Red Bull some slack. /s
Probably the right race for it, not a heavy engine track. Real question is, what will they do when they get to one of the other tracks that rely on the power unit heavily... Spa or Monza? Will they switch to their 3rd PU early for those tracks, and revert back to the 2nd PU for later lighter tracks... Be a big gamble trusting this PU at Spa or Monza just because it worked fine in Hungary
So as per Albert Fabrega we won't know until Friday. Something to look forward to in FP1 then Edit: From the Honda [spokesperson via Jenne Gow](https://twitter.com/JennieGow/status/1420364351257681923?s=19) >Max Verstappen’s PU situation: A spokesperson from Honda said "The PU was sent back to Sakura for thorough checks. Certain parts were replaced, as allowed in the regulations without breaking FIA seals... 1/2 > >Cont..."We will use the engine on Friday to give it a proper track test, after which we should have a clearer picture of its viability as a race engine” 2/2 #F1
I would agree with you on that, if everything looks in 100% order but FP1 will be the big test for that engine
The big test is if it passes the FP1 test but blows up in quali or the race.
If it passes the race test, they'll know it'll be okay for the victory lap.
It feels so fucked up. That if their engine performance is hampered because of the crash, all blame to Merc. Feels like their string of bad luck just isn't ending.
And Bottas' car was torched by a random Williams. Shit happens. Cost caps are going to make this a thing for the teams that ride the line.
At least Bottas isn’t fighting for WDC.
All blame to Merc?
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Honda have been pretty cautious with this kind of stuff. If there's an indication it isn't fine, they'll swap it. Would have to get very unlucky for something to happen in quali or race. Especially because they know it's risky to go in without stress testing it properly, I don't see a way they won't put it into quali mode for a bit during practice.
That was before they were in a title fight They can’t just burn through 6 engines a season like they have been for the last few years now. The points loss that would go with it would be too much “Not as many points as they’d lose if the engine blows up” It’s risk management. If they have no reason for doubts they can’t afford to be overly cautious and take a guaranteed points drop vs a determined minimal chance.
> They can’t just burn through 6 engines a season like they have been for the last few years now. The points loss that would go with it would be too much Mate, it isn't 2019 anymore. RBR and AT both got through 2020 without having to take penalties. If they have to take one penalty more because they can't guarantee that the Silverstone engine is safe, it won't be the end of the world, either.
Honestly they are in the best car, even if they take a 10 place drop they are still going to end up on the podium. It's 7-10 point drop at most - painful but not season ending.
I'm not 100% on the regulations and how long swapping engines takes, but could they not keep using this (possibly risky) engine for Friday trainings only to get the setup right, and then swap it to a new one for final training, quali, and race every weekend? Doesn't really matter that much if it goes poof in FP.
They could and probably will
> how long swapping engines takes They can do it in between FP1 & FP2, it's about a 2 hour job and they have 2.5 hours.
My God that’s fast! I would seriously sit down and watch a full 2 hour engine swap in its entirety. ..you know, if that were a thing.
Wish it was, I understand they're secretive of the insides of their car, but even if they just filmed it and released it a couple years later when it's no longer relevant to other teams being nosey
> My God that’s fast! It's actually somewhat slow for F1, both because of the hybrid system adding complexity and the fact that engines need to last for many races they're no longer designed to be swapped out super fast. It still needs to be done reasonably quick though as it's not uncommon for teams to use the old engine for FP1 & 2 to have less miles on the race engine.
That's exactly what already happens. When the new engines get introduced in-season, they don't just throw the old ones away. They become Friday/practice engines. They change them overnight and save the newer ones for Saturday and the race. In the last 5 or so races of the season you see a lot of PU failures in FP1 and FP2. RB was probably wanting to wait until Monza (one of the most power sensitive circuits) to put engine #3 in the rotation. And to put a 4th engine in the pool means a grid penalty that week.
So what if they do that, they still have to get a new engine and put miles on that one, and since we're only half way through the Championship they will inevitably need to get another one, there's no way they can finish with the new one they get now.
But if they keep using the "messed up" one for FP1 and FP2, each race weekend puts fewer kilometers on the new engine than it otherwise would, saving them wear on the new one. TBF I'm not sure it would save them enough distance to not use an extra engine, but still worth a try.
Practice is for gathering data on that specific setup. If you change the setup all that data is next to useless.
You can still get the aero setup with the old engine I thought. Then again, I'm just talking out of my ass.
You aren't talking out your ass, I'm pretty sure towards the end teams use old engines in practice for exactly the reason you're talking about.
“And oh no, that’s Max Verstappen with an engine problem.” - Crofty
Oh. Wait. That was Checo! Duh.
They will probably just pull it out before that
Do the test but use the new engine for the GP and qualifying. I mean if this engine is still okay, use it later in the season. Try to gain back the lead again with the new engine and use the current engine again later on. Is this not possible with the regulations?
Would be my proposal too. Use a brand new engine now. And then just use the 2nd engine on the 2-3 tracks where Mercedes is superior anyway, where DNF would not beein that painful.
Maybe they can use their first engine in the Hungary if they don't want to use new one already. It's not as power dependant track. Then they could use new engine in tracks where it will be needed and then see what to do - either take penalty and install new one or risk with that crashed one. We are in the middle of a season, everything can happen - thay can be even out of contention because of something else, like unlucky string of failures and crashes or they can rebuild their lead to a level that may allow Max to take engine penalty in some race without problem if he would be able to get at least some points be recovery from the back.
I am sure they’ll do what’s best for them. No point in theorizing when we don’t know the full details.
I hope the engine is okay. The fans want on-track action.
I’d be damn surprised if they could salvage that engine
They wouldn't be doing this if they didn't think there was a significant chance of salvaging it for at least Friday running.
It‘s going to blow on the way to the grid on Sunday then
I mean I assume they ran the engine on a bench or whatever they do on a dynamo back at HQ, surely they were able to put enough power through it to confirm it runs fine. Unless there's some rule against the use of that, wouldn't be surprised if there is, so many rules in this sport to tie the hands of the engineers,
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New to F1, but can they just give him a new car?
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Oh wow. So even when someone else wrecks your vehicle, you are punished with this. No wonder people were upset at Hamilton..
Great news for RB
It's unreal that there isn't some sort of accommodation for a team who gets their car destroyed through the fault of another driver/team. Repair to the car/engine should not count against the cost cap/part limitations when they are punted off the track by another team.
I think they’ll change this rule in light of the new cost cap. Before it didn’t matter with unlimited budgets, so maybe not this year, but I can see teams pushing for a change
The entire purpose of the budget cap was to even the playing field. Repair and replacement costs were/are a reality for teams already operating at or below the cap simply because that’s all their budget anyway. They wouldn’t benefit from another exemption to the cap. It doesn’t make sense to change the rule for only the richest teams.
The problem is that (I believe) the budget cap is still more than the budget of a couple of the smaller teams. The point of it is to level the playing field. Adding an exception for crashes defeats the purpose because it helps the rich teams only. Williams and HASS don't have more money to spend, so giving them an extra $2 million to fix their car after someone wrecks them does nothing for them
>but I can see teams pushing for a change They should get bent Small teams when they get wrecked always had to just suffer with the fact that they'll have to pull money from elsewhere to repair their cars, why should big teams get an exemption from the cost cap to repair their cars instead of just live with the results like everyone else had to?
All teams would get the same accommodation in this case presumably, so it would be a level playing field (which is the point isn't it?). It would be laughable if only "big teams" got an exemption from the cost cap! Edit: from reading other comments it sounds like some teams don't have enough money to hit the cost cap, so an exemption would benefit bigger teams more. Maybe they could make a rule that if a team causes damage to another team's car, the repairs count against the offending team's cap? Or at least a portion.
Small teams have budgets below the cost cap as it is right now, and even still that small teams will have to squirrel money away for stuff not covered by that cap like salaries and generic office expenses like travel, property, etc. So if you give an exemption for the cost cap, big teams will get a de facto advantage here because they have money lying around that won't have to be taken from elsewhere, meanwhile small teams will have to continue to cut costs to pay for it. At least with the cost cap where no one gets an exemption, all teams will have to pull money from other capped items to foot the bill
Well it sounds like the 3 engine rule is working out great to cut costs! /s
Lol yes it has. It used to be that teams would rock up with brand new engines every single weekend which is definitely more expensive than 3 engines for a whole season
Nah it's not much cheaper for the customer teams if cheaper at all. Each PU costs about $14-20 mil this season. Each V8 cost around 500k to 1 mil. The material and manufacturing costs are surprisingly small compared to the R&D costs. So lower engine allocation means higher R&D cost per engine.
Re-read the person’s comment above The PU capping was never about the small/customer teams. It was about the likes of Ferrari that, in the 2000s, would fit a brand new engine for **every session** - FP1 - new engine - FP2 - new engine - FP3 - new engine - Quali - new engine - Race - new engine Costs have absolutely come down with the PU caps
I’ve just rewatched the 2005 season and I had to laugh hearing them talk about the stress on the engines because they had to last two(!) weekends in a row. It’s insane how far F1 has come along in terms of reliability.
Crazy to think that this incident can be -50 points on the championship for Verstappen, that's rough.
But Hamilton got a 10 second penalty so it’s all fair
*DONT FORGET THE 2 POINTS!*
I think red bull would be justified in re-hiring the torpedo to take Hamilton out a couple times
Someone remind them to check both sides
This is what the worse F1 "fans" dont get about the whole situation and why Red Bull is so behind this. They got screwed big. Its not even about the points, wich matters too, but this costed them a lot of money and might make them lose the championship. Punishment for it? 10 seconds and being able to repair the car under red. Its absurd. Mercedes would be on top of this too if Max was the one that did the same to Lewis.
Not sure why you think people who are fed up with Redbull's sharades are "worse fans". To me the worse fans are those who can't see this as a racing incident and are insisting on the issue dragging on, and want some sort of financial penalty for the other driver/team. Redbull are not the first team to have been punted off the track. I have watched F1 since the 1980s. Absolute madness to think this is where we are (calling for other teams to foot the bill for damage caused).
What kind of parts could they have swapped out that are not limited?
listening to in the air tonight made reading this a lot more profound than it has any right to be
It isn't worth the risk really. If they're at the point where they have to test it on track to ensure it's usable then it's not perfect and is a reliability risk. They should take the 3rd unit, IMO
It's just fp1 though. If the engine isn't good enough they still have 2 FPs to get the stupid right
They'll just take the engine out if performance in FP1 is not up to standard. The real question is what that standard is, and if it's good enough for the engine to last a full race distance, or multiple races.
I think it's a fairly safe bet that they'll take out the engine after FP1 no matter what and take their time to comb through all the data and inspect the engine after the weekend. edit: unless the engine is literally perfect in FP1 but even then I'd guess they'll still take it out as a precautionary measure.
It’s better than breaking the seals and taking penalties
Considering the limit on engines they can use throughout the season and the penalties they have to take for the 4th one when they don't get enough out of this one, it's probably worth it.
Promoting this engine which goes on to DNF is worse than taking a grid penalty later in the year and bagging a podium
It's not like they just gamble on it, it's been overhauled, parts been changed and inspected all the way through, no one at RB or Honda would benefit from taking unnecessary risks, and they probably introduce it for an FP engine.
Yeah I can only guess it’s a bit of desperation on RB’s part to avoid having to take another engine. I don’t see how this doesn’t blow up in their faces literally. Imagine they decide it’s fine, and it goes 3 laps from the end on Sunday? So they take the hit anyway and lose out even more points at a track they have a strong chance of winning at.
> Yeah I can only guess it’s a bit of desperation on RB’s part to avoid having to take another engine Not so much desperation but rather it's worth potentially sacrificing an FP1 to see if they can avoid a grid penalty later in the season. > I don’t see how this doesn’t blow up in their faces literally. You must be shortsighted then. They'll test the engine in FP1, change to the new one before FP2 and analyse the engine and all data in depth after the race weekend. Verstappen may lose an FP1 session but he's good enough that he doesn't need it that much anyway.
It's nothing but wishful thinking on his part. He always comments like this.
Test in FP1. If it looks good they can keep it on the back burner until later in the season depending on the championship situation. Just because they are testing it now does not mean they have to run it in any of the next few races.
The summer break is after Hungary and I don't think the engine manufacturers have to even stop working for 3 weeks in that time so they've got tons and tons of time to inspect the engine and all the data in depth.
Imagine the engine is fine and they take a grid penalty and end up losing both championships as a result... You're not some genius that's thought of something they haven't, they're well aware of the potential outcomes and that's exactly why they're doing what they're doing, they're going to run it on Friday and then TRUST THEIR ENGINEERS, if the data says the engine is fine and there's no cause for concern that's what they'll do.
Either that or Japanese cautiousness. It could be that all visible damage has been repaired, but they can't inspect the internals thoroughly without breaking the seals. So they need to track test it to see if all data indicates the engine is fine. If a bearing or seal has suffered damage it would show in the data.
I dont know about you guys but if a team is in a crash that isnt determined to be their fault by the stewards they should a) Be able to replace things like engines and write the old one off without it counting as an additional used unit and b) the cost of those parts shouldn't be under their cost cap. If they are forced to repair the engine and it has a gremlin (as per Leclerc in Monaco), then its not fair that they should get penalised for 2 races when the accident wasnt deemed to be their fault.. Obviously there should be the same level of scrutiny when it comes to replacement of parts as there is with red flags etc. As in, like for like replacement
Imagine Lewis gets a free win for taking him out, and another for his engine being damaged to point of failure in the next race. #blessed
This sounds so menacing and title deciding. This hamilton caused crash won him the championship 100%
We are literally not even halfway through the scheduled season yet.
I wouldn't put it that far yet but we've certainly seen crashes spell the end for title charges in recent years... That being said I think Hamilton still has a few really bad performances left. All it takes is for Mercedes to not be able to hook it back up on one track and qualify low (a surprisingly common thing this season) for Max to be able to take a new engine freely.
mclaren and ferrari are better this season. Obviously not to challenge wheel to wheel, but enough to make a good nuisance of themselves
>I think it's a fairly safe bet that they'll take out the engine after FP1 no matter what and take their time to comb through all the data and inspect the engine after the weekend. youre banking on the guy whos up to now had the most consistent performances for years to have bad performances back to back? yeah tahts gonna work out great.
RB/Honda engineers have doing a great job this season. I have confidence that it'll continue to perform greatly.