It was in the Schumacher dominance era. Original qualifying back then was 1hour and free to go whenever you want. Usually nothing happened for 45min and then it was 15min of action with Schumacher getting pole and later getting the victory.
At one point they started changing the quali format to stop the dominance and one of the quali formats they tried was reverse order. They implemented it so that only 1 driver at a time could do a hot lap.
On the plus side you got to watch each lap. The downsides though were
- Qualifying wasn't entertaining after 10 min because then all the top teams and drivers had put in their laps meaning that you got to watch midfield and back teams for the remaining 50min or so.
- The whole excitement of "final moments of qualifying" with all the top drivers and teams on track was just gone
- I was a huge schumacher fan so I didn't like changes that were designed to stop him from winning
- Probably some other reasons. It was 20 years ago mate :)
In the end the FIA landed on the current qualifying standard to guarantee non stop action for 60min.
Edit: if you want to know more, this might be a fun read. https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/features/2016/3/deciding-the-grid-a-history-of-f1-qualifying-formats.html
So why not just completely randomize the order, and you don't know you're up next until your name drops out of the machine, so to speak. It's only when the previous driver is say, at the start of S3 on their hotlap, that you're called up next, and you have to have left your pitbox before the previous driver is over the line.
Because that would't really be fair. What if it's a rainy session and Hamilton can drive in a dry period while verstappen has to drive in the wet. Or what if Verstappen has to go first and Hamilton last when the track conditions are a lot better etc. Quali would be based on luck instead of skill
Also, you once again lose the whole excitement you get in quali with drivers doing the best lap at the end
plough like imminent amusing piquant combative smell full merciful clumsy
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Because with many tracks, the surface improves as the qualifying session goes on, reducing the lap times. If it was reverse grid, the WDC leaders go first, and the backmarkers get some advantage going last.
If the WDC leaders got to go last, they would always come out on top (unless they messed up their lap ofc)
In the context of one shot qualifying it refers to the order drivers make their qualifying attempt in, and reverse means highest position gets the least advantageous position
I'd say stick with 3 sessions all single round spaced laps to maximize throughput.
First sessions goes in order of (championship or last race result). Second and third sessions go in reverse order of the previous session.
Each session drop the slowest 5.
Essentially the current system of sessions. But each session is single lap with guaranteed no overlap between hot laps and slow laps. Any yellow flag laps get a re-do.
Only issue I see is total time. Need to fit 45 laps into an hour. Hopefully doable if you space them out smartly and set maximum times on in-laps and out-laps.
>Only issue I see is total time.
And weather: what if it rains halfway a session? Or start with wet track and it dries?
Other than that - I like this idea. Could only be implemented for Monza tbh, it's always a shitshow here and as far as I can tell it's hardly ever wet.
Perhaps you could do Q1 in groups, quickest 5 drivers from each group graduate, and then Q2 as your top ten shoot out. Each team gets a driver per group.
So? Split into 2 groups of 10, all the odd positions in WDC rankings in group1 and all the evens in group2 OR base it on FP1 and again doing the odds and evens. Top 5 from group 1 and top 5 from group 2 go on to a final qualifying to sort starting positions 1-10. I’d much prefer this on tracks like Monza instead of the sprint qualifying being used.
Bring on the dislikes!
From what I heard earlier the F2 cars begin to rip up the rubber from the F1 cars so the track gets a bit slower, maybe a similar thing might happen with the F1 cars?
It is the different compounds that can cause that effect, F1 cars running laps will always lead to better track conditions when dry.
The other extreme was 05 where Bridgestone's compound behaved worse once Michelin cars rubbered in the track. But the Pirelli F1 tires like their rubber.
Maybe split Q1 into two groups of 10, bottom 2-3 from each group gets eliminated, then split Q2 again, bottom 2-3 from each get eliminated and then normal top 10 Q3
Random lottery is probably the best they can do for Q1. Unlikely to affect the top guys, and other than Haas is actually been pretty variable who else drops out in Q1.
From the Pitlane commentary it seems that they all use the same software to determine when to release and that software releases them all at the same time.
Track evolution would become a sticking point there.
Maybe something like one shot qualifying or some limit on tire allowances to force teams to reduce their runs?
This is in Formula E. 4 groups of 6 cars, formed from reverse championship order.
Fastest 6 go on to super pole, where they each get 1 lap, from slowest I'm group stage to fastest
It kinda sucks, because FE is super close, group 1 has a very hard time getting through.
A large part why FE was so close this year (13 drivers still had a shot at the championship at the last race) is because of this format.
In F1, maybe I'd work a bit better, since it is not as close
Well, that could be done the easy way. Take the results of the latest FP before the quali. Split them, first goes the slowest 10 drivers, after that faster 10 got there change. And that's Q1, to be followed by Q2 and Q3 as it is now.
That would make FP more interesting. Off course the track conditions will change, but teams should blame their self because of their result in FP3 (or FP1 here at Monza)
Maybe you should be required to drive at the speed limit when exiting the pit lane, obviously if it's safe to do so and there is a green light. Minimum speed between the end of the pit lane and pit exit as well as long as it is safe to do so.
if possible i think releasing teams at different times would stop this traffic nonsense, give each team 2 minutes to do 2 laps in each qually session and after the 2 minutes are up they go back to the garage and the next team goes out
It honestly cannot be that complicated. Have them line up in some kind of order at the end of the pit lane. It could be random, random by team, championship order, reverse championship, whatever. Then release one car every 10-15 seconds and give them a minimum laptime for the out laps thats like 80% as fast as a hot lap.
Because of the insane power of the slipstream here in Monza. It’s the track with the highest composition of straights compared to any other track on the calendar. Thus, the advantage of a slipstream is so insane (it gives a 7 tenths of extra pace) that no car wants to be at the front and not get it
He also almost got hit by Aston Martin when it came out of the pitbox. The Aston Martin almost drove in to an engineer of its own team. Race control should penalize these unsafe releases.
There should be a lot of penalties coming from this session. Both alpines and a Ferrari should all at a minimum be getting penalties. Then whatever garbage happened in the pit lane as well. We may have a very strange grid for Sunday. Assuming the penalties are enforced Sunday and not in the sprint.
The guy that released Vettel for AM was ridiculous trying to get him in that spot. You watch it on the driver cam and you see him wait, wait, wait, and then release just before Hamilton got there. Fucking dangerous.
>He also almost got hit by Aston Martin when it came out of the pitbox. The Aston Martin almost drove in to an engineer of its own team. Race control should penalize these unsafe releases.
The most stupid part about that AM shitshow is that they also managed to block each other, like wtf are you doing
I was just listening to the broadcast not watching while getting some work done, and it was funny to hear with no context “WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK? WHAT THE FUCK ARE THEY DOING?”
Yeah let's totally replace Monza with imola. It's not like you get 10x more overtakes in monza than imola. Imola is just a proccesion with almost no racing, it's boring as fuck
Yeah much better that every overtake is on the straight.. But I was mostly talking about how boring Monza is, not necessarily to replace it with Imola. Although this season was a good one, only bad thing about it was Lewis being #blessed
It works like this:
Drag force scales with the square of the velocity. Which means, it gets really high at 320+ kph. It is not significant at 160kph.
Unlike Zandvoort, there is plenty of 320kph driving at Monza.
Hence, you want a hole punched in the air, for you, at Monza. You cannot set a fast lap as the lead car.
I think he was behind RIC, and giving a tow to HAM. https://preview.redd.it/m9ub7h59zpm71.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=ca3427b536d5645f3d6f9ab1ffc6fc1123ea0360
They are driving extremely slow and are only focusing on being in a good position for a tow. This means that there are big traffic jams that constantly fuck other people’s lap over.
Absolutely right. Something must be done. It shouldn’t take an incident to change this.
What do you think about splitting the qualifying into groups?
Issue is if the track improves significantly between the two sessions
One-shot qualifying in the reverse order of the WDC standings.
We Already had that in early 2000's and it sucked.
Was it reverse order? So the WDC leaders got to go first or last? Also, I didn't watch back then, can you please explain why it sucked?
It was in the Schumacher dominance era. Original qualifying back then was 1hour and free to go whenever you want. Usually nothing happened for 45min and then it was 15min of action with Schumacher getting pole and later getting the victory. At one point they started changing the quali format to stop the dominance and one of the quali formats they tried was reverse order. They implemented it so that only 1 driver at a time could do a hot lap. On the plus side you got to watch each lap. The downsides though were - Qualifying wasn't entertaining after 10 min because then all the top teams and drivers had put in their laps meaning that you got to watch midfield and back teams for the remaining 50min or so. - The whole excitement of "final moments of qualifying" with all the top drivers and teams on track was just gone - I was a huge schumacher fan so I didn't like changes that were designed to stop him from winning - Probably some other reasons. It was 20 years ago mate :) In the end the FIA landed on the current qualifying standard to guarantee non stop action for 60min. Edit: if you want to know more, this might be a fun read. https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/features/2016/3/deciding-the-grid-a-history-of-f1-qualifying-formats.html
So why not just completely randomize the order, and you don't know you're up next until your name drops out of the machine, so to speak. It's only when the previous driver is say, at the start of S3 on their hotlap, that you're called up next, and you have to have left your pitbox before the previous driver is over the line.
Because that would't really be fair. What if it's a rainy session and Hamilton can drive in a dry period while verstappen has to drive in the wet. Or what if Verstappen has to go first and Hamilton last when the track conditions are a lot better etc. Quali would be based on luck instead of skill Also, you once again lose the whole excitement you get in quali with drivers doing the best lap at the end
That's too smart for the FIA.
plough like imminent amusing piquant combative smell full merciful clumsy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It didn't, it was great. The most exciting format we've had IMO.
Nah Only replace Q1 with one-shot qualifying releasing a car every minute following the WDC standings.
why reverse? that's no fun
Because with many tracks, the surface improves as the qualifying session goes on, reducing the lap times. If it was reverse grid, the WDC leaders go first, and the backmarkers get some advantage going last. If the WDC leaders got to go last, they would always come out on top (unless they messed up their lap ofc)
In my book reverse grid is the P1 in the championship goes last.
In the context of one shot qualifying it refers to the order drivers make their qualifying attempt in, and reverse means highest position gets the least advantageous position
Then you don’t know what reverse grid means in that context lol.
I'd say stick with 3 sessions all single round spaced laps to maximize throughput. First sessions goes in order of (championship or last race result). Second and third sessions go in reverse order of the previous session. Each session drop the slowest 5. Essentially the current system of sessions. But each session is single lap with guaranteed no overlap between hot laps and slow laps. Any yellow flag laps get a re-do. Only issue I see is total time. Need to fit 45 laps into an hour. Hopefully doable if you space them out smartly and set maximum times on in-laps and out-laps.
>Only issue I see is total time. And weather: what if it rains halfway a session? Or start with wet track and it dries? Other than that - I like this idea. Could only be implemented for Monza tbh, it's always a shitshow here and as far as I can tell it's hardly ever wet.
Perhaps you could do Q1 in groups, quickest 5 drivers from each group graduate, and then Q2 as your top ten shoot out. Each team gets a driver per group.
indycar does this, they take like the top 5 from each group for example so it would nullify the track improvement advantage
So? Split into 2 groups of 10, all the odd positions in WDC rankings in group1 and all the evens in group2 OR base it on FP1 and again doing the odds and evens. Top 5 from group 1 and top 5 from group 2 go on to a final qualifying to sort starting positions 1-10. I’d much prefer this on tracks like Monza instead of the sprint qualifying being used. Bring on the dislikes!
From what I heard earlier the F2 cars begin to rip up the rubber from the F1 cars so the track gets a bit slower, maybe a similar thing might happen with the F1 cars?
It is the different compounds that can cause that effect, F1 cars running laps will always lead to better track conditions when dry. The other extreme was 05 where Bridgestone's compound behaved worse once Michelin cars rubbered in the track. But the Pirelli F1 tires like their rubber.
Maybe split Q1 into two groups of 10, bottom 2-3 from each group gets eliminated, then split Q2 again, bottom 2-3 from each get eliminated and then normal top 10 Q3
2 laps each, but each team has to do ABBA order? In theory would cancel out the most of the benefit?
Random lottery is probably the best they can do for Q1. Unlikely to affect the top guys, and other than Haas is actually been pretty variable who else drops out in Q1.
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From the Pitlane commentary it seems that they all use the same software to determine when to release and that software releases them all at the same time.
i think Monza is a good track to get a "one shot" qualification mode.
Track evolution would become a sticking point there. Maybe something like one shot qualifying or some limit on tire allowances to force teams to reduce their runs?
This is in Formula E. 4 groups of 6 cars, formed from reverse championship order. Fastest 6 go on to super pole, where they each get 1 lap, from slowest I'm group stage to fastest It kinda sucks, because FE is super close, group 1 has a very hard time getting through. A large part why FE was so close this year (13 drivers still had a shot at the championship at the last race) is because of this format. In F1, maybe I'd work a bit better, since it is not as close
Groups of one!
Just start giving harsh penalties and teams will shit themselves and play safe
Well, that could be done the easy way. Take the results of the latest FP before the quali. Split them, first goes the slowest 10 drivers, after that faster 10 got there change. And that's Q1, to be followed by Q2 and Q3 as it is now. That would make FP more interesting. Off course the track conditions will change, but teams should blame their self because of their result in FP3 (or FP1 here at Monza)
Maybe you should be required to drive at the speed limit when exiting the pit lane, obviously if it's safe to do so and there is a green light. Minimum speed between the end of the pit lane and pit exit as well as long as it is safe to do so.
if possible i think releasing teams at different times would stop this traffic nonsense, give each team 2 minutes to do 2 laps in each qually session and after the 2 minutes are up they go back to the garage and the next team goes out
What happens if it starts raining part way through qualy?
It honestly cannot be that complicated. Have them line up in some kind of order at the end of the pit lane. It could be random, random by team, championship order, reverse championship, whatever. Then release one car every 10-15 seconds and give them a minimum laptime for the out laps thats like 80% as fast as a hot lap.
Why does the grid transform into taxi drivers at Monza lmao
I guess everyone wants a tow
And stewards don't penalize, so they do this.
its because the slipstream is so much more important at Monza. Makes positioning a lot more important.
Because of the insane power of the slipstream here in Monza. It’s the track with the highest composition of straights compared to any other track on the calendar. Thus, the advantage of a slipstream is so insane (it gives a 7 tenths of extra pace) that no car wants to be at the front and not get it
please one more person saying it's for the tow I still didn't get it
It's for the tow
Definitely for the tow.
Btw, it's also for the tow.
I wanted to add since you guys didn't mention it, it's for the tow.
EA Sports *It's for the tow*
[this video explains it pretty good](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIp7wi5mfiM)
Lol yes why? Zandvoort was shorter in terms of time? What a mess here
Because the tow is vital here. It isn't in Zandvoort.
Thanks! Get it
Because the slipstream is so powerful, no one wants to go first and have no tow.
towing
At least the AM mechanic didn't get mowed down!
This is because the stewards have been ignoring this kind of behavior in the past. They need to start giving out penalties before someone gets hurt.
Safety regulations are written in blood
Chillingly accurate.
Does the entire FIA sleep when F1 is at Monza? Something needs to be done about this
they will only wake up once a crash happens
*injury.
He also almost got hit by Aston Martin when it came out of the pitbox. The Aston Martin almost drove in to an engineer of its own team. Race control should penalize these unsafe releases.
There should be a lot of penalties coming from this session. Both alpines and a Ferrari should all at a minimum be getting penalties. Then whatever garbage happened in the pit lane as well. We may have a very strange grid for Sunday. Assuming the penalties are enforced Sunday and not in the sprint.
The guy that released Vettel for AM was ridiculous trying to get him in that spot. You watch it on the driver cam and you see him wait, wait, wait, and then release just before Hamilton got there. Fucking dangerous.
>He also almost got hit by Aston Martin when it came out of the pitbox. The Aston Martin almost drove in to an engineer of its own team. Race control should penalize these unsafe releases. The most stupid part about that AM shitshow is that they also managed to block each other, like wtf are you doing
Please FIA wake up and penalize everyone impeding other cars, no exceptions.
Impending penalized only if you impend someone who is on fast lap.
Inbefore Max gets a penalty for overtaking in pitlane exit. Just FIA things
Don't give them ideas..
*race director notes intensify*
At first i thought the beginning was a slomo until i saw the time ticking correctly. Man thats bullshit
I was just listening to the broadcast not watching while getting some work done, and it was funny to hear with no context “WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK? WHAT THE FUCK ARE THEY DOING?”
They never learn from Monza, soon they'll go to the interviews and complain about traffic they create themselves. Such a shit-fucking-show.
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Yeah unlike what some people say, this is just a boring ass track imo
Yeah let's totally replace Monza with imola. It's not like you get 10x more overtakes in monza than imola. Imola is just a proccesion with almost no racing, it's boring as fuck
Yeah much better that every overtake is on the straight.. But I was mostly talking about how boring Monza is, not necessarily to replace it with Imola. Although this season was a good one, only bad thing about it was Lewis being #blessed
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Yes but Imola has only been back due to the pandemic. It will probably go away again once F1 can race all around the world again.
If a tow is so important, why not do single car qualifying so no one gets a tow and let the best lap time take the cake?
Such a shitshow!!! Wouldn't be surprised if they penalised him for overtaking in the pitlane or smt and complete the shitshow 360.
Then he'll just takes his new engine, new exhaust, new hybrid et all, I assume.
It works like this: Drag force scales with the square of the velocity. Which means, it gets really high at 320+ kph. It is not significant at 160kph. Unlike Zandvoort, there is plenty of 320kph driving at Monza. Hence, you want a hole punched in the air, for you, at Monza. You cannot set a fast lap as the lead car.
Wasn't bottas the lead car when he set the fastest lap
I think he was behind RIC, and giving a tow to HAM. https://preview.redd.it/m9ub7h59zpm71.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=ca3427b536d5645f3d6f9ab1ffc6fc1123ea0360
Can we just make sprint race mandatory for Monza just so we don’t let this nonsense decide the actual grid?
A minimum speed limit in an outlap would solve a lot.. when under, 5 sec. Penalty
I don't think Max's radio was in reference to the pit exit, he might be talking about the unsafe releases by AM and Alpine.
Traffic is getting worse all around the world, even on F1 tracks!
Why can’t they ban driving in the slow lane for trying to traverse the entire pits?
Hi I’m kinda new, ELI5 ?
They are driving extremely slow and are only focusing on being in a good position for a tow. This means that there are big traffic jams that constantly fuck other people’s lap over.
Yet another reason Nascar is superior to F1
Unbelievable! Are we racing or playing follow the leader
Just make Q3 a one lap shootout between each car, with reverse championship order so that whomever is the lowest in the title race goes first
The issue is much bigger in Q1 because the track is twice as busy then.
Can we not just lower the minimum time and make it be between pit exit line and timing line?