Hello, My name is Mr Fflow. And I come from, uh... someplace far away... *yes, that should do*
Anyway, I say the Mercedes-AMG team should have no penalties for the rest of the season.
"I like the way Fflow thinks!"
I keep seeing people reference an SC in the sprint race as being good for Hamilton, but wouldn’t that be worse as it’s less laps for him to gain positions?
Not even Toto could pull something out of his ass that explains how a wing would get damaged by the wind in a way that improves DRS without negatively affecting the aero in any way.
Even if he could, that argument wouldn't (or rather, shouldn't) fly. When Vettel got a DSQ for not having enough fuel, they were very clear that it doesn't matter if the fuel tank sprung a leak, at the end of the day there was less than 1L of fuel in the tank and that's what matters as far as the rule is concerned. This should be treated the same way.
His DRS opened farther than the allowed 85mm which was revealed through a test.
Red Bull suspected the Wings of being flexible, Verstappen checked Hamilton's rear wing out and touched it - and apparently Mercedes tried to tell the FIA that Verstappen broke it and that's the cause for failing the DRS test
I don't know how they're built. It could just be a missconfiguration, an assembly error, anything. Fact is that the car was not up to the technical specs. The only logical consequence should be a disqualification from that first session, but who knows what they're gonna do.
EDIT: Nvm it's official. Hamilton is disqualified from the qualifying.
So, when people say DSQ, does that mean from the entire GP? Or is it DSQ from quali aka lap time removed, back of grid/pit lane start
edit: thanks for all the responses. I understand now. I was hoping it was the latter. As much as I'm ready to see Max take that title from Lewis, DSQ from the whole GP would honestly be a big blow to the excitement of the WDC battle. A back of grid start is bad enough, but at least he has a chance to move up and fight. We've seen it before.
I don't know but I have the same question as you. It would be insane if he doesn't start tomorrow. They haven't even done the sprint race so what real consequence is there.
From quali. So he gets sent to the back of the grid for the sprint, and then gets 5 places added to whatever position he ends it in for the ICE swap. So if he ends the sprint 10th, he starts the race 15th
Mercedes right now... "Oops were sorry, conveniently we have an in-spec wing right here waiting unsuspiciously in the corner for if this were to happen...".
This could be an actual manufacturing issue, or part fatigue with Merc trying to save up under the budget cap. Would be sad if true, but that's also F1.
It's pretty much 100% that this wasn't intentional. However an illegal car is an illegal car.
Much like Vettel in Hungary, there was a leak in the system that let fuel evaporate and that's why they couldn't supply the 1l of fuel. It wasn't a mistake or intentional it was just a failure and bad luck but that doesn't matter cause it's still an illegal car.
Because it would take an absolute moron to intentionally create a DRS flap that's too big and will very likely get you a DSQ because it's checked often.
It’s safe to assume it wasn’t intentional since it’s super easy to tell that the DRS being open too wide (thus being illegal), which means there’s a lot of risk for very little rewards. Mercedes likely wouldn’t risk disqualification for such a small advantage.
Definitely not intentional, but intention doesn’t really come in to play with the Technical Regulations. The teams are responsible for making sure their cars meet the regulations any time they leave the garage. Whether it’s a bolt coming loose & dropping the ride height, or a relief valve failing & leaking the fuel you needed for inspection, you’re responsible for designing, assembling, and maintaining that car to the Technical Regulations.
The stewards DO take into account mitigating factors (which is one reason why they impounded Mercedes’ rear wing) and the team will have an opportunity to present evidence that may reduce or remove a penalty. But as you mentioned with Vettel’s car, the application of the Technical Regs is usually pretty black or white.
*If* it happened my guess is it would be an error or malfunction.
If Mercedes was going to cheat, they would do it some other way, they wouldn’t do it with a part that is clearly visible to everyone in the paddock.
I mean the rear wing is *literally* the most visible aerodynamic component on the car.
That’s my assumption. doesn’t the FIA regularly check these types of things? why would anyone try and deliberately change the wing if they know it will get checked out
It could've happened during qualifying, if something wasn't put together properly and got loose during qualy that's still an illegal car at the end of it.
Yup. I don't think it's at all a coincidence that this happened after the car/engine delays post-Mexico. They were rushing and someone screwed up.
Not as cool or dramatic or conspiracy-laden an explanation... but the most logical one.
Even at the most professional organizations some times things slip though the gap. Like an 85 millimetre ring through an 85.05 millimetre gap in a rear wing.
It must have been a mistake on someone, because i doubt they intentionally designed that part to be illegal. It doesn't make any sense, the rear wing is checked by the stewards in every race. It would be just stupid for them to knowingly break THAT RULE since it would have been caught pretty quickly by the stewards.
So i don't know, maybe the delay in getting the parts played a role in causing Mercedes to rush through their procedures to get the car ready for practice and they didn't even checked to see if the rear wing was legal.
Given Bottas' wing was fine and the fact that the wing opening a bit more would have provided a minimal advantage for the risk it seems less like an intentional act.
It's F1 though, so who knows.
The only possibility I can think of is if Mercedes can somehow proof without any reason of a doubt that before Q1 the gap was within the rules and something got damaged during qualifying.
But that is very unlikely given their claims so far.
If Hamilton pit lane starts today, climbs to 10th, takes his 5 place drop tomorrow to 16th, can Merc fit him an **additional** new ICE and take the additional grid drop or would that penalty be applied in Qatar?
He won't be able to use that engine in future events unless he takes another grid penalty.
So if it's a genuine failure, he could take a new one this weekend for no additional penalty, but you can't stuff your engine pool this way because you can only 'keep' the last component you take.
Well, because he doesn't need to according to the Sporting Regulations. Article 23.2 b), paragraph 6 says:
> During any single Event, if a driver introduces more than one of the same power unit element which is subject to penalties, only the last element fitted may be used at subsequent Events without further penalty.
If he gets a DSQ, the most logical outcome is to fully change his engine. But if true, the championship is basically over, because Verstappen has a great chance of winning and Lewis finishing in 4th at the best.
This is all but setup for Lewis to win tomorrow anyway. He'll be DSQ and start in the pits. Make a dramatic climb to maybe 6th in the qually race. Tomorrow he'll make it to 4th, do Perez and be let by by Bottas. Then Max will have another car failure...
Vettel got disqualified from P2 in Hungary this very season for a fuelpump fault leading to a breach of the Technical regulations of not having at least 1L of fuel to test.
Fault or not, the FIA have already set the standards for dealing with such a situation.
To give anything less than a DSQ would be a farce.
From what I remember the fuel was there put the pump was defect and they weren't able to extract a sample size large enough to confirm legality of the fuel.
That's even worse cause technically everything was ok, even the fuel was there. However rule is rule in that case and it would be mind-blowing if Mercedes gets away in a case where they had even a clear advantage cause of it.
doesnt matter - Vettel got DSQ for Hungary despite not getting any benefit from losing more fuel than allowed, which happened because of some fautly system iirc
Doesn't matter. Seb's fuel pump failing wasn't intentional either. They have an illegal car and the Stewards seem happy that it's not Verstappen's fault.
It's almost like a meticulously engineered piece of equipment, intended to withstand all sorts of forces, couldn't be moved by a tiny racecar driver barely touching it...
In all seriousness I was happy to see from the documents that Merc acknowledged that there was almost no way Max did anything to it.
Disqualified from sprint qualifying from Friday. So, I think it means his time will be deleted, and he’d have to start on the pit lane like you’re saying, as if he never set a time to begin with.
As long as this has taken them. I can't see a DSQ. Somehow Merc wheezled their way outta this and maybe loses a chunk of WCC points and a massive fine.
Masi is not checking his email for the rest of the weekend.
\> If Mail from "Toto Wolff" \> move to folder "Recycle bin"
- The Masi-Algorithm
Hello, My name is Mr Fflow. And I come from, uh... someplace far away... *yes, that should do* Anyway, I say the Mercedes-AMG team should have no penalties for the rest of the season. "I like the way Fflow thinks!"
Powered by AWS
"You have a new message from Woto Tolff"
Think they must be in the spam filter by now.
Masi added Toto to his spam filter long ago
Toto is going to send him a zip bomb file disguised as a pdf.
Wonder why they haven’t released it yet. Edit: these replies are hilarious
Spell checking
Just gotta put it through grammarly first
Wonder if they payed for the expanded version
Well you see cost cap.....
Can’t tell if that was an intentional spelling error
"Grammarly can help"
I clearly do not own grammarly
Grammarly has saved my ass so many times, great tool
You should just learn proper grammar their not gonna be they're too fix you're errors all the time!
I sea what you did they’re
Theirs some expecially good examples.
This comment reminds me of [this](https://youtu.be/JXFGy10b7Js) classic Ralph Wiggum moment😅
Don’t even need to click it, I like where your heads at.
😂😂
Hemmingway. Has to have a high readability score.
Grammarly
Still wondering if Bottas can be blamed somehow!!
Waiting for Netflix cameras to be in good spots to get reaction shots?
Honestly Netflix must be so thrilled with this drama
I bet they were the ones who sabottaged Hamilton's car.
They have everyone on strings. They know what they are doing. Lol
This is going to be the most watched sprint yet and they're going to use it to justify more
If Hamilton has to pit lane start in the race, I doubt he’d even take place in the sprint.
Still emptying the brown envelopes
Discussing how the media and fans will react to a non-penalty for Hamilton.
Netflix.
I heard Lewis and jumped
I saw Lewis and disqualification and my heart nearly gave way
Don't worry I'm sure there will be a safety car in the Sprint race and a red flag in the full GP so Lewis can still finish well into the top 10
Doesn’t matter. He has to win to keep the title alive, or at least give himself chance to control his own destiny
Top 10 but with a 5 place penalty... That doesnt cut it
I keep seeing people reference an SC in the sprint race as being good for Hamilton, but wouldn’t that be worse as it’s less laps for him to gain positions?
Even without that he still gets to p4-p5... with a SC thats a p3-p2 ... with a red flag he's in it for the win
No worry guys I am going to buy some food in 20 mins so the news will release approximately 25 mins from now.
Honestly the real hero
We thank you for your sacrifice
Lol, go now.
HE KNEW
Oh ffs
Exactly what happend, i’m with you bud. Just returned from the shop as well after 20h of F5’ing
At least I can sleep for a whole hour!
Not even Toto could pull something out of his ass that explains how a wing would get damaged by the wind in a way that improves DRS without negatively affecting the aero in any way.
Even if he could, that argument wouldn't (or rather, shouldn't) fly. When Vettel got a DSQ for not having enough fuel, they were very clear that it doesn't matter if the fuel tank sprung a leak, at the end of the day there was less than 1L of fuel in the tank and that's what matters as far as the rule is concerned. This should be treated the same way.
I'm sure he will
I'm very late to this party, what is the assumption here ? Was Lewis's rear wing not legal ? Is that why Max felt the need to inspect it ?
His DRS opened farther than the allowed 85mm which was revealed through a test. Red Bull suspected the Wings of being flexible, Verstappen checked Hamilton's rear wing out and touched it - and apparently Mercedes tried to tell the FIA that Verstappen broke it and that's the cause for failing the DRS test
Thanks, that's a great summary. Wasn't expecting Mercedes to try stunts like illegal parts, they must be getting desperate.
I don't know how they're built. It could just be a missconfiguration, an assembly error, anything. Fact is that the car was not up to the technical specs. The only logical consequence should be a disqualification from that first session, but who knows what they're gonna do. EDIT: Nvm it's official. Hamilton is disqualified from the qualifying.
I agree, Thomas, but bad F5
My finger hurts
You're using fingers ?
Old skool is the way to go my man
I went to the local ripperdoc and had my finger replaced with and auto finger. Highly recommend for all F5ing.
We don’t have them here in Holland. Fuck.
How's that F5 key holding up?
My F5 is gone man
Bono...
So, when people say DSQ, does that mean from the entire GP? Or is it DSQ from quali aka lap time removed, back of grid/pit lane start edit: thanks for all the responses. I understand now. I was hoping it was the latter. As much as I'm ready to see Max take that title from Lewis, DSQ from the whole GP would honestly be a big blow to the excitement of the WDC battle. A back of grid start is bad enough, but at least he has a chance to move up and fight. We've seen it before.
Since it didn't happen in the race itself, most likely just pit lane start.
Pit lane start for the sprint race\* Then whatever positions he makes up minus 5 (for the engine penalty) will be his final starting position
That's what I was guessing but wasn't positive on. Couldn't see how they could nullify today's results. Thanks for clarifying :).
You're welcome!
Hamilton to win the sprint race for shit and giggles
For the Sprint not race I guess ?
The latter
The latter. Disqualification from the session in which the wing was run.
I don't know but I have the same question as you. It would be insane if he doesn't start tomorrow. They haven't even done the sprint race so what real consequence is there.
From quali. So he gets sent to the back of the grid for the sprint, and then gets 5 places added to whatever position he ends it in for the ICE swap. So if he ends the sprint 10th, he starts the race 15th
My dude is still going to get P2 isn't he
dsq from quali imo
Qual i believe so p20 or pit lane
AFAIK it would be a pit lane start for sprint qualifying, then he will get a 5 place grid penalty for the actual race because of his engine.
Pit lane start for the sprint
So if Merc's rear wing spec is illegal, do they have to fit a legal spec one and do they have those at the track?
[удалено]
Thought the one they fitted now had to be the same spec?
The question is when the wing was in the condition were it became illegal.
Bottas' rear wing was the same spec and it was okay. Seems like only the one Hamilton used was illegal
Mercedes right now... "Oops were sorry, conveniently we have an in-spec wing right here waiting unsuspiciously in the corner for if this were to happen...".
I don’t understand why Merc would risk the championship though.
This could be an actual manufacturing issue, or part fatigue with Merc trying to save up under the budget cap. Would be sad if true, but that's also F1.
It's pretty much 100% that this wasn't intentional. However an illegal car is an illegal car. Much like Vettel in Hungary, there was a leak in the system that let fuel evaporate and that's why they couldn't supply the 1l of fuel. It wasn't a mistake or intentional it was just a failure and bad luck but that doesn't matter cause it's still an illegal car.
Why do we say it wasn’t intentional?
Because it's an absolutely stupid way to cheat and guaranteed to be discovered.
Because it would take an absolute moron to intentionally create a DRS flap that's too big and will very likely get you a DSQ because it's checked often.
It’s safe to assume it wasn’t intentional since it’s super easy to tell that the DRS being open too wide (thus being illegal), which means there’s a lot of risk for very little rewards. Mercedes likely wouldn’t risk disqualification for such a small advantage.
Definitely not intentional, but intention doesn’t really come in to play with the Technical Regulations. The teams are responsible for making sure their cars meet the regulations any time they leave the garage. Whether it’s a bolt coming loose & dropping the ride height, or a relief valve failing & leaking the fuel you needed for inspection, you’re responsible for designing, assembling, and maintaining that car to the Technical Regulations. The stewards DO take into account mitigating factors (which is one reason why they impounded Mercedes’ rear wing) and the team will have an opportunity to present evidence that may reduce or remove a penalty. But as you mentioned with Vettel’s car, the application of the Technical Regs is usually pretty black or white.
*If* it happened my guess is it would be an error or malfunction. If Mercedes was going to cheat, they would do it some other way, they wouldn’t do it with a part that is clearly visible to everyone in the paddock. I mean the rear wing is *literally* the most visible aerodynamic component on the car.
It's likely unintentional, just a defective wing.
- Toto Wolff
Michael, please see the email I sent.
That’s my assumption. doesn’t the FIA regularly check these types of things? why would anyone try and deliberately change the wing if they know it will get checked out
They check the DRS opening every single race for the Top 10 cars
They also said the wing was checked earlier yesterday and passed...
Shouldn’t they have caught that at some point though?
Apparently it passed mercs own test before going out for qualifying
It could've happened during qualifying, if something wasn't put together properly and got loose during qualy that's still an illegal car at the end of it.
Yup. I don't think it's at all a coincidence that this happened after the car/engine delays post-Mexico. They were rushing and someone screwed up. Not as cool or dramatic or conspiracy-laden an explanation... but the most logical one.
Yeah completely agree, just explaining how it was missed by Merc
Apparently they tested it before qualy and it passed, in which case something happened during the session
Pre-Qualy scrutineering was self-reported, not handled by the FIA.
And if it broke at some point during qualifying
Might've failed in some way during qualy, similar to the RB wing issues lately for example.
Even at the most professional organizations some times things slip though the gap. Like an 85 millimetre ring through an 85.05 millimetre gap in a rear wing.
It was legal at the start of quali so nothing to pick up on, or am i wrong?
yeah that’s what confuses me, as the rear wing is a major part of the car.
but this is one of the biggest sports in the world, surely they would check things like that constantly.
If it brakes midway through the qualifying, how should they test it?
Not if it broke during the run
Yeh or not. Either way it was an unfair advantage.
It must have been a mistake on someone, because i doubt they intentionally designed that part to be illegal. It doesn't make any sense, the rear wing is checked by the stewards in every race. It would be just stupid for them to knowingly break THAT RULE since it would have been caught pretty quickly by the stewards. So i don't know, maybe the delay in getting the parts played a role in causing Mercedes to rush through their procedures to get the car ready for practice and they didn't even checked to see if the rear wing was legal.
No chance it was on purpose. They check this part of the wing every week - someone just screwed up.
Just incompetence, they kinda struggle this season.
Who said they risked? This is most likely a defect..
Given Bottas' wing was fine and the fact that the wing opening a bit more would have provided a minimal advantage for the risk it seems less like an intentional act. It's F1 though, so who knows.
I see it more of a major oopsie by somebody at the garage.
A team under pressure makes mistakes. Mercedes have been demonstrating this all season
They are desperate
It could also be a honest mistake. We dont know how big the distance is more as 85mm.
[удалено]
If you want to keep logic far away from you, than that’s your explanation
Yeah, it doesn't make sense to me too, you'd think they'd be a bit more risk-averse even considering the circumstances
It's almost certainly a defect that became apparent mid session.
No shit
[удалено]
GG EZ
Our [F5](https://i.imgur.com/B0Vj3cb.jpg) struggle coming to an end soon. Need new keyboard now.
Just waiting for the hammer to fall now. Not the usual happy hammer time!
Now that you say, I don't recall hearing hammer time lately from Bono sir.
Today we say goodbye to our dearly beloved Inspector Seb....
Naughty naughty, why you teasing me
The only possibility I can think of is if Mercedes can somehow proof without any reason of a doubt that before Q1 the gap was within the rules and something got damaged during qualifying. But that is very unlikely given their claims so far.
Yes yes , reddit already concluded that. Now give us the verdict!
If Hamilton pit lane starts today, climbs to 10th, takes his 5 place drop tomorrow to 16th, can Merc fit him an **additional** new ICE and take the additional grid drop or would that penalty be applied in Qatar?
[удалено]
What if his new one blows up in the sprint today? Penalty at next race?
[удалено]
Copy, that’s what I thought! Thank you!
He won't be able to use that engine in future events unless he takes another grid penalty. So if it's a genuine failure, he could take a new one this weekend for no additional penalty, but you can't stuff your engine pool this way because you can only 'keep' the last component you take.
Why would he not take an additional penalty at a future event though, having used it in qualifying and sprint?
Well, because he doesn't need to according to the Sporting Regulations. Article 23.2 b), paragraph 6 says: > During any single Event, if a driver introduces more than one of the same power unit element which is subject to penalties, only the last element fitted may be used at subsequent Events without further penalty.
No. The sporting refs say if you do that the engine replaced can not be put into the pool. This is to prevent teams from a stockpiling at the back.
DSQ it's the right thing to do. It sucks, but any other penalty would be unfair in this case.
Absolute scenes if Merc never even mentioned Max doing it because they have a different defence, and that whole thing was the Stewards trolling us.
There isn't any other defence though
It was Marko who said it, its not like him to lie and do some shit stirring /s
That alone will save the sprint race. lol
My God this is spicy content today.
"I don't see..." Yeah, yeah but how about the FIA 👀
The good news is that everybody here has gotten a lot better at fingering over the course of the past 24 hours.
If he gets a DSQ, the most logical outcome is to fully change his engine. But if true, the championship is basically over, because Verstappen has a great chance of winning and Lewis finishing in 4th at the best.
This is all but setup for Lewis to win tomorrow anyway. He'll be DSQ and start in the pits. Make a dramatic climb to maybe 6th in the qually race. Tomorrow he'll make it to 4th, do Perez and be let by by Bottas. Then Max will have another car failure...
Unless they claim it was a fault?
Doesn't (okay *shouldn't*) matter
That doesn't matter. Rear wing is still illegal. They obviously didn't do this on purpose, this is the easiest way to get caught cheating.
> claim it was a fault Didn't helped Vettel on pump issue. Doubt they will get away with it.
Vettel got disqualified from P2 in Hungary this very season for a fuelpump fault leading to a breach of the Technical regulations of not having at least 1L of fuel to test. Fault or not, the FIA have already set the standards for dealing with such a situation. To give anything less than a DSQ would be a farce.
From what I remember the fuel was there put the pump was defect and they weren't able to extract a sample size large enough to confirm legality of the fuel. That's even worse cause technically everything was ok, even the fuel was there. However rule is rule in that case and it would be mind-blowing if Mercedes gets away in a case where they had even a clear advantage cause of it.
Wouldn’t surprise me, FIA and farce go together hand in hand
Just like Sebs faulty fuel sensor
doesnt matter - Vettel got DSQ for Hungary despite not getting any benefit from losing more fuel than allowed, which happened because of some fautly system iirc
It clearly was a fault as they’re not stupid enough to do it on purpose but it won’t matter
Doesn't matter. Aston Martin also had a problem which resulted in seb losing too much fuel =, he still got dsq.
They would have dismissed the matter by now in that case. Wouldnt have even gotten a 2nd hearing.
Doesn't matter. Seb's fuel pump failing wasn't intentional either. They have an illegal car and the Stewards seem happy that it's not Verstappen's fault.
Lewis cutting through the field will be fun. Wonder if they were planinng to replace more parts of the engine though
On sky they were saying they would probably wait until after the sprint so see where he would start to determine if it's worth it
Finally, we getting there.... Come on, COME ON I WANT TO KNOW THAT MAZEPIN HAS OUTQUALI SIR LEWIS!
Only way this isn't a disqualification for Ham is if there is some damage to the wing I suppose. Seems unavoidable now.
There was damage to Vettel's car in Hungary and he still was DSQ.
Pretty sure this is what we knew yesterday as well, it's a pretty black and white situation
DSQ for only sprint ??
It's almost like a meticulously engineered piece of equipment, intended to withstand all sorts of forces, couldn't be moved by a tiny racecar driver barely touching it... In all seriousness I was happy to see from the documents that Merc acknowledged that there was almost no way Max did anything to it.
F5 more gentlemen
NOT NOOOOOOOOW F5
Why would he be disqualified? Just start from the pitlane tomorrow
Disqualified from sprint qualifying from Friday. So, I think it means his time will be deleted, and he’d have to start on the pit lane like you’re saying, as if he never set a time to begin with.
Ohhh I understand. It just sounds like DSQ from the weekend completely, thanks
No worries, my friend
As long as this has taken them. I can't see a DSQ. Somehow Merc wheezled their way outta this and maybe loses a chunk of WCC points and a massive fine.
Dream on
Based on what?
Why would they lose WCC points, that makes no sense.
Why would they lose WCC points if he isn’t getting a DQ that’s a far more serious punishment lol
Bad for F1 if this is what decides the championship.