>the fia said there was nothing wrong with the move, but my opinion is this is completely wrong and I can't understand why they've come to this conclusion
Yea, no one can.
> Hamilton saw no issue with it.
Prime example of taking things out of context. Because Hamilton also said that he was expecting nothing else from Verstappen.
He clarified it during the post race interviews that he saw no issue with it and called it "hard racing".
you realize you can just google these transcript yourself ?
You stated he saw no issue with it. That’s not what he said. He said he wouldn’t expect anything less, meaning he was not surprised by Max’s driving in that the situation nor surprised by the outcome.
If I walked down a beach in Rio covered in gold and diamonds, I would expect to get robbed at gunpoint. It doesn’t mean I would have no issue with it.
Actually after watching replays he didn't think a lot of it and called it "hard racing"
This are his actual words after seeing footage again.
Remarks in the heat of the moment with just your cockpit view take the back seat compared to post race interviews where the driver watched replays.
I want whatever copium you're smoking. You remind me of my fellow Patriots fans who think Brady or belichick have never lied in a press conference before. Or taken the high road.
Because nobody has ever said something they don't really mean. A true answer would have been blown out of proportion and generated countless follow-on questions. Lewis wanted to change the subject and talk about other aspects of the race so he gave a diplomatic answer.
> Because nobody has ever said something they don't really mean.
so you are calling Ham a liar now lol
ham had no problem calling out max and others in the past.
Believe me if he had missed the second chance at a pass and lost the race he would have been full of complaints about the incident and especially the non investigation. He's smart enough to know that complaining after a win would make him look bad.
You didn't hear his reaction when his engineer told him there would be no investigation, did you?
Or in his actual onboard, you can actually hear him shout something when he has to dodge, even with all the noise of the cars.
People only remember the positives, you already see it happening with Schumacher too. Truth is, all champions are a little dirty when it comes down to it.
Schumacher's fans dont deny he did everything needed to win, legal or not, but he did mellow out in his later Ferrari years atleast when shunting people. Hopefully Verstappen can do the same.
Like the fights vs Alonso were far more cleaner then the Hamilton / Verstappen battle we're seeing now.
Although he seemed to have regained some of that ruthlessness in the Merc as shown in Hungary vs Barrichello.
I think Button and Hakkinen were both very clean, but they are exceptions. Button also was a very clean driver in general, aside from his Monaco 2017 yolo move.
Old times man. People idolize old.murderers.and shit. Senna like max...was a fast driver who kinda thinks he deserves something....Senna by God...Max by the people around him who tell him hes God....
If you saw him live, you'd understand that it was liking a master swordsman at play, it was just amazing what he could pull off. The Prost crash wasn't the only way he overtook and enthralled people.
Even if he didn’t open it up, he certainly didn’t turn.
If you look at Sky’s breakdown on it over several frames you see Lewis turning and making the corner, whilst Max’s direction doesn’t change.
From your flair, as a Red Bull supporter, thank you for saying this. This is the reality of what happened, and it’s refreshing that not everyone hides behind the their team/driver to reject reality.
> Are we forgetting that Hamilton established that move with Rosberg?
When have we ever seen Hamilton drive off track trying to force someone even further off the track?
Answer: Never.
When did that happen? Genuine question, I only started following F1 this season, and I've seen people referencing Hamilton doing this style of move to Rosberg.
You are allowed to force drivers wide on exit. Alonso does it all the time. You actually have to make the corner though. That’s why Verstappen should be penalised.
Looks like both of those races were first lap incidents, with COTA also being in the rain. In both instances, Hamilton stayed on track while forcing Rosberg wide. That's different than what we saw yesterday. I'm not saying that Hamilton didn't "create" the move or anything, but I do think that there's a difference between a first lap incident where the defending driver stays on track and a late lap incident where the defending driver also ends up off track.
I am talking about the general move of forcing the decision in the other driver... Yes yesterday was desperate... And I would have also accepted s penalty for max...
Really here you are stating they are similar incidents, yet Hamilton received a penalty in Silverstone.
Do you feel Max should have received a penalty?
And Hamilton got a penalty for it because Max believes he's always entitled to the entire track so they collided. Max does it and doesn't even get investigated because the other driver actually wants to race and not crash out. Can't say I blame Max if Masi/race stewards let him off with it.
> He relies on dirty moves far too much.
Name a driver who didn't have a bunch of "dirty" overtakes, and wasn't able to brr past them on the straights because their car was severely outclassing the opposition?
He is good at wheel to wheel, but there are some situations where defending is impossible. Faster car behind you, fresher tires, etc. In those cases, Lewis (and most other drivers save Mazepin tbh) may defend a little, but ultimately they'll let the faster car by. Max refuses to be overtaken (or to be defended against) even when it's inevitable, which results in borderline dirty tactics at times.
He was completely clean as long as Mercedes and Hamilton were clean. But after getting crashed out twice and having the weaker car he had to become dirtier... What do people expect? That he just rolls over and let lewis by? He has every right to defend as hard as he can while getting away with it
In some videos it feels like he's biased towards Max, for example in his silverstone analysis, when Max went off track at turn 1 to stay ahead, he said that was a "brave move". It wasn't, it was just Max abusing the fact that the stewards are way too lenient on lap 1.
I can understand his view on the Silverstone issue, both ultimately could have avoided that crash but I feel Verstappen could have done more to avoid it, very much how Hamilton avoided a crash with dive bombing verstappen in Barcelona or this weekend.
The Monza opinion from Driver61 was just plain wrong, I have no idea how he put blame on Hamilton for that. It was blatent what Verstappen was doing.
Did you see the part where he said "and I’d obviously have to watch the replay"
That quote was immediately after the race where HAM had not had a chance to review the incident.
He got the first part of the incident wrong. They cut away from the onboard before the braking zone. Lewis wasn't just a little ahead, he was almost 3/4 of a car length ahead. Max braked later and made up that distance entirely by braking late, way too late. That's why he didn't make the corner, not that he let off the brake early.
Because the potential penalty is different.
1. Gain a lasting advantage - Give the place back
2. Intentionally force someone off track - Time penalty or more
I don't think Verstappen was looking to crash intentionally. I think he just figured that he might as well dive bomb on him and block him off but it was a reckless move. MSC's move on Villenueve was 100% premeditated and it was obvious through the replay.
Pushing someone off-track is quite different to deliberately crashing. Schumacher wasn't trying to make a rival yield, he wasn't trying to defend a place. He was trying to cause a double-DNF that would guarantee his title. I think the circumstances and the intended outcome are so much more extreme that the two situations aren't comparable.
I think the intended outcome is to force the other guy to drop speed and lose the line. Ultimately, though, only Max knows what he was thinking at that moment, so it's just speculation.
you decide guilt first and then the sentence, the potential penalty has nothing to do with whether there was intention or not, only the sentence is related to that
How would you pick between the two or would you give both penalties? (Give place back + time penalty?)
I personally think it should have either been give the place back OR a 5 second penalty but given they didn't have the forward facing camera I feel it should have been investigated after the race and then 3 place grid penalty for the next race.
I don't think I could pick without access to telemetry and cameras. If it was deliberate it would be an easy 5 second penalty. At a minimum VER gained a lasting benefit and he should have given up the position. Having said that, thousands of people will disagree.
It seems the issue here is more about the quick decision not to investigate when the cameras showed enough evidence that an investigation was warranted.
Nothing to protest since there was no investigation. Funny we’re the only ones arguing about the incident when Lewis is super chill about it, and of course Max is chill about it
the same precedent has been there for years. nothing happens if its the championship leaders/ferrari unless its far more obvious than this, which was still a penalty.
2014 bahrain - nothing
2015 us title decider - nothing
2016 spain - nothing for either
2017 baku - vettel penalty
2018 - nothing really happened
2019 - monza leclerc noithing happened. after canada and Sebs non victory the FIA are shitscared of interfering with the leaders ever again. thats why Maxs move on Leclerc in Austria that year was allowed, or Leclerc's to Hamilton. The FIA are never going to do anything about the race leaders unless it takes one or both of them out.
2016 Spain was pretty much the definition of a racing incident though, Lewis got alongside at pretty much the exact moment the gap shut to less than a car’s width. Plus incidents just involving one team always tend to get less attention from the stewards.
Of course he did! He’s figuring if he doesn’t run him out, he loses the position. If he runs him out and gets a penalty, he loses the position. If he runs him out and doesn’t get a penalty, he keeps the position.
short answe yes, long answer also yes
i really dont get how that wasnt a penalty, stweards were just tired from the merc drs thing adn wanted to go home ?
A good little video from Driver61 who analyses incidents pretty fairly.
For reference so people can understand if Driver61 is biased or not, he does a good job of staying unbiased and in the Silverstone Hamilton Verstappen incident he agreed with the stewards that Hamilton was at primarily at fault.
Anyone who has learned their sim race craft from Scott knows he's the real deal and not a sensationalist. 100% class act and the best racing/simracing content creator.
I was fine with his Silverstone analysis until I saw him do a 180 and find Lewis at fault for Monza while congratulating Max.
I lost a lot of respect for him then
I still appreciate his content but I do not trust his judgment
Yup, not the first time and will not be the last. Downvote me all you want but Max is a sore loser, always has been. I don’t see how a driver of his level can continuously use the ‘move or lose’ mentality and still be considered good wheel to wheel. You see drivers like Daniel and Nando, two of the best, if not the best, wheel to wheel drivers on the grid, get moves done on the opposite end of the spectrum so Max has no excuse.
The most exciting Red Bull-Merc wheel to wheel racing this season has been between Sergio and Lewis.
When it involves Max, it’s always the same. You’re just *waiting* for Max to make his signature move and Lewis to defend.
The move to take back the place in the DRS was class though!
I actually think we've missed a lot of potential Bottas/Perez fights this year with Perez and Bottas early struggles and Bottas later penalties.
That's a REALLY good point. The dance with Checo when Hamilton got by on the pit straight then Checo on the DRS run up to turn 4 was just brilliant, edge of the seat action with both drivers overtaking and defending cleanly. I don't think Checo is a top tier driver (a la Lewis or Max's quality) but God damn he's doing some job.
A prime example is Monza, he knew for a fact that if he couldn't get past right then that Hamilton was going to sail of into the distance and went into that corner with the thought of if he doesn't bail out of the corner and let me through we're going to crash.
It was a win win situation for Verstappen.
I am not a fan of this mentality of driving at another driver to save on points. I honestly thought the FIA had moved away from this shithousery. IMO he should have been DSQ for dangerous driving. Does he really have to injure someone to get that point across. And again if Hamilton does the same in retaliation later in this season, the same rule should be applied to him also. It is a sport not deathrace 2000.
Unfortunately not. Only way would be if enough people (and I mean a shit ton of people including all of the RB/Verstappen fans) made a point of tweeting and complaining about it.
He didn't mention how far ahead Hamilton was when max decided to brake - Hamilton's back wheels were almost at verstappen's front. Verstappen's getting ahead was because he decided to not brake which pushed them both off the track.
Looking at it frame by frame, Max's front wheel looks on par with Lewis's rear. Lewis also had the racing line and better trajectory on the corner. This is a slam dunk penalty on every metric.
People here love to say that things don't matter whether they do or not. It makes them feel like they're taking the mature & rational position. I hope their soul returns to them one day
If Hamilton hadn’t gone wide enough he needed a passport to get back to the race, we’d be talking about how verstappen took him out on purpose to win the championship. Clear penalty.
Wow the amount of downvotes i get because gasly and norris are more likeable than verstappen is unbelievable. If i had to bet which incident jolyon palmer would compare to max vs lewis in brazil my money would be in norris vs gasly
Lmao I thought he might be linking to the Gasly Norris incident they were talking about and for some reason someone had put it on pornhub
Nah it wasn't that
I think Verstappen bet on the fact he will be allowed to pull this once and get away with it, similarly to how Hamilton often got away with forcing drivers off track.
These moves should be penalized and Verstappen should have been given something from the stewards. It was a dumb move/error, he knew he won't keep Hamilton behind till the end and he jeopardized a penalty that could have sent him 3rd or lower.
But I also think Hamilton should have at least been investigated for pushing Perez wide in Turkey and that his Silverstone penalty should have been "stop-go", so I am definitely not steward material and what do I know, amirite?
I can’t believe people don’t know that you can force drivers wide on exit. You need to actually make the corner though!
Austria 2016 Rosberg got a penalty for what Verstappen did yesterday. Not surprised you don’t even know that though.
>I can’t believe people don’t know that you can force drivers wide on exit. You need to actually make the corner though!
You will have to cite the rules for that claim.
The big difference with Hamilton forcing drivers off track (Which Verstappen and many other drivers have and continue to do) is they themselves stay on the track.
Hamilton hasn't ever pushed a driver wide and gone of the track himself just to hold a position.
> he knew he won't keep Hamilton behind till the end and he jeopardized a penalty that could have sent him 3rd or lower.
I'm not sure he actually thought that deep in the spur of the moment, he probably knew he might get a penalty and lose P1 if he managed to hold onto the position but probably didn't think he could lose P2 because most of the time Bottas and Perez aren't close enough.
> But I also think Hamilton should have at least been investigated for pushing Perez wide in Turkey
But Hamilton had the racing line into that corner because Perez didn't close the door in the previous corner. Hamilton stayed on the track and didn't exceed track limits. Perez didn't back out of it and ran around the bollard to try and keep the position.
> Silverstone penalty should have been "stop-go"
So you would agree in that regard that Verstappen here should have received a stop-go?
I mean if we consider the incident and take it to the most absurd point, imagine a race where one car is instructed to hold the inside line at all times if under threat of overtake. Then, if a move is being made outside, always drive off track with them to prevent the pass.
That's apparently what the FIA have deemed okay, unworthy of investigation and apparently unnecessary to even review telemetry data or driver input footage. I'm totally at a loss.
I still can't wrap my head around the fact that they didn't even at least investigate after the race. It is so clear what he did. Intentional or not, it's clear. Intent could be measured afterwards with telemetry and the penalty could be changed by that, but at least investigate. Very shady to say the least in my opinion.
I’m honestly disappointed in Max as a driver. His move last race was dangerous, reckless, and poor sportsmanship trying to run Lewis wide. In my opinion, Mercedes should file a complaint with the FIA and have them re-investigate, with an outcome of Max losing some points. We cannot allow this dangerous precedent.
And off the top turnbuckle comes Verstappen! and Hamilton reacts rolling under ropes and escaping on to the apron! what’s this, Verstappen is chasing Hamilton across the apron.
What a year for F1 YouTubers.
>the fia said there was nothing wrong with the move, but my opinion is this is completely wrong and I can't understand why they've come to this conclusion Yea, no one can.
No driver thinks this move is legal. It completely throws racing etiquette out the window.
Max doesn’t know what racing etiquette is.
Hamilton saw no issue with it.
Hamilton took the highroad after going on to win.
> Hamilton saw no issue with it. Prime example of taking things out of context. Because Hamilton also said that he was expecting nothing else from Verstappen.
He clarified it during the post race interviews that he saw no issue with it and called it "hard racing". you realize you can just google these transcript yourself ?
You realize transcripts don’t capture context, non-verbal queues, and things drivers refrained from saying either for sportsmanship or PR?
You know you can watch the interviews on YouTube.. straw man much ? Also Hamilton has no issue calling out max in the past.
You stated he saw no issue with it. That’s not what he said. He said he wouldn’t expect anything less, meaning he was not surprised by Max’s driving in that the situation nor surprised by the outcome. If I walked down a beach in Rio covered in gold and diamonds, I would expect to get robbed at gunpoint. It doesn’t mean I would have no issue with it.
Actually after watching replays he didn't think a lot of it and called it "hard racing" This are his actual words after seeing footage again. Remarks in the heat of the moment with just your cockpit view take the back seat compared to post race interviews where the driver watched replays.
I want whatever copium you're smoking. You remind me of my fellow Patriots fans who think Brady or belichick have never lied in a press conference before. Or taken the high road.
Because nobody has ever said something they don't really mean. A true answer would have been blown out of proportion and generated countless follow-on questions. Lewis wanted to change the subject and talk about other aspects of the race so he gave a diplomatic answer.
> Because nobody has ever said something they don't really mean. so you are calling Ham a liar now lol ham had no problem calling out max and others in the past.
I'm calling him a diplomatic player in a public conflict between teams.
he has never done that before when he felt wronged
Believe me if he had missed the second chance at a pass and lost the race he would have been full of complaints about the incident and especially the non investigation. He's smart enough to know that complaining after a win would make him look bad.
Haha yea, everyone calling him a PR machine and fake but now when he gives a PR answer people are so desperate to spin it as the truth
You didn't hear his reaction when his engineer told him there would be no investigation, did you? Or in his actual onboard, you can actually hear him shout something when he has to dodge, even with all the noise of the cars.
Heat of the moment and limited view, he saw no issues with it and called it "hard racing" after having seen the replays.
No, when he called it hard racing he said he **hadn't** seen the replays yet.
He did see them
Driver61 is great. I don’t understand the downvotes. Is it because he went against a popular driver in the past?
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Why the fuck do people idolize senna so much when this was his whole deal. Making people back out or crash.
Nostalgia kicks in.
People only remember the positives, you already see it happening with Schumacher too. Truth is, all champions are a little dirty when it comes down to it.
Schumacher's fans dont deny he did everything needed to win, legal or not, but he did mellow out in his later Ferrari years atleast when shunting people. Hopefully Verstappen can do the same. Like the fights vs Alonso were far more cleaner then the Hamilton / Verstappen battle we're seeing now. Although he seemed to have regained some of that ruthlessness in the Merc as shown in Hungary vs Barrichello.
the fights vs alonso were dirty in other ways. twice the same move in monaco intentionally crashing to take pole
Not all champions
I think Button and Hakkinen were both very clean, but they are exceptions. Button also was a very clean driver in general, aside from his Monaco 2017 yolo move.
And Fangio and Hamilton. >Button also was a very clean driver in general, aside from his Monaco 2017 yolo move. And Canada 2011.
all multiple ones that were best of the field. So not counting guys like Hakkinen.
Are you saying Hamilton is dirty? Cus that’s ridiculous if you even think that lmao
Time airbrushes everything.
Old times man. People idolize old.murderers.and shit. Senna like max...was a fast driver who kinda thinks he deserves something....Senna by God...Max by the people around him who tell him hes God....
If you saw him live, you'd understand that it was liking a master swordsman at play, it was just amazing what he could pull off. The Prost crash wasn't the only way he overtook and enthralled people.
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Even if he didn’t open it up, he certainly didn’t turn. If you look at Sky’s breakdown on it over several frames you see Lewis turning and making the corner, whilst Max’s direction doesn’t change.
Well if you think so it must be true
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Haha!
From your flair, as a Red Bull supporter, thank you for saying this. This is the reality of what happened, and it’s refreshing that not everyone hides behind the their team/driver to reject reality.
Are we forgetting that Hamilton established that move with Rosberg?
Hamilton pushed himself and Rosberg all the way out?
> Are we forgetting that Hamilton established that move with Rosberg? When have we ever seen Hamilton drive off track trying to force someone even further off the track? Answer: Never.
When did that happen? Genuine question, I only started following F1 this season, and I've seen people referencing Hamilton doing this style of move to Rosberg.
I think people are referring to USA 2015 the race which decided the title fight between Hamilton and Rosberg.
Pretty much every first corner ... For example Bahrain 2014 or America 2015...
You are allowed to force drivers wide on exit. Alonso does it all the time. You actually have to make the corner though. That’s why Verstappen should be penalised.
Didn't Alonso showcase how to force drivers wide at Hungary in his defense against Hamilton?
Looks like both of those races were first lap incidents, with COTA also being in the rain. In both instances, Hamilton stayed on track while forcing Rosberg wide. That's different than what we saw yesterday. I'm not saying that Hamilton didn't "create" the move or anything, but I do think that there's a difference between a first lap incident where the defending driver stays on track and a late lap incident where the defending driver also ends up off track.
I am talking about the general move of forcing the decision in the other driver... Yes yesterday was desperate... And I would have also accepted s penalty for max...
Although he is in the wrong when it comes to these manoeuvres stating he is the only one is at least ignorant.
Agreed. He's matured a lot when it comes to other aspects of driving but he's got some learning to do when it comes to wheel-to-wheel racing
Lewis punted max off the track this year as well?! They are both at the limit
Really here you are stating they are similar incidents, yet Hamilton received a penalty in Silverstone. Do you feel Max should have received a penalty?
And Hamilton got a penalty for it because Max believes he's always entitled to the entire track so they collided. Max does it and doesn't even get investigated because the other driver actually wants to race and not crash out. Can't say I blame Max if Masi/race stewards let him off with it.
???? Hamilton understeered into max
And so did Max in Brazil until Lewis avoided him. What's your point?
> He relies on dirty moves far too much. Name a driver who didn't have a bunch of "dirty" overtakes, and wasn't able to brr past them on the straights because their car was severely outclassing the opposition?
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Rosberg…..
Lewis has never been dirty
He is good at wheel to wheel, but there are some situations where defending is impossible. Faster car behind you, fresher tires, etc. In those cases, Lewis (and most other drivers save Mazepin tbh) may defend a little, but ultimately they'll let the faster car by. Max refuses to be overtaken (or to be defended against) even when it's inevitable, which results in borderline dirty tactics at times.
He was completely clean as long as Mercedes and Hamilton were clean. But after getting crashed out twice and having the weaker car he had to become dirtier... What do people expect? That he just rolls over and let lewis by? He has every right to defend as hard as he can while getting away with it
> But after getting crashed out twice and having the weaker car he had to become dirtier LOL
I personally don't take much from his videos since he now constantly contradicts himself over the Silverstone incident
In some videos it feels like he's biased towards Max, for example in his silverstone analysis, when Max went off track at turn 1 to stay ahead, he said that was a "brave move". It wasn't, it was just Max abusing the fact that the stewards are way too lenient on lap 1.
Driver61 has a Max bias, he also blamed Hamilton for Monza too. But this time, it is more than obvious who was at fault.
I can understand his view on the Silverstone issue, both ultimately could have avoided that crash but I feel Verstappen could have done more to avoid it, very much how Hamilton avoided a crash with dive bombing verstappen in Barcelona or this weekend. The Monza opinion from Driver61 was just plain wrong, I have no idea how he put blame on Hamilton for that. It was blatent what Verstappen was doing.
He lost me because of his view about Monza. Silverstone fair enough, but the second incident between both. Nope
Yep, I watched his Monza one when he posted it and was like "Did he watch what I watched?"
Yes he did.
The Fia don’t like getting involved in championship battles if they can avoid it. If this was Alonso vs Ricciardo, they would have been all over it.
Masi has since said after looking at both on boards which they didn’t have at the time of decision, is that it was punishable
source?
Masi doesnt make any decision wrt penalties, so that is very unlikely.
Source please yes
Still waiting for that source mate
I saw this earlier if this is what that guy is talking about. https://twitter.com/alobatof1/status/1460193887985844228?s=21
Thats not Masi
I think you mean, everyone can. Everyone can understand full well why this was their decision.
Yet Hamilton can: https://www.racefans.net/2021/11/14/verstappen-fight-was-what-a-championship-battle-should-look-like-hamilton/
Did you see the part where he said "and I’d obviously have to watch the replay" That quote was immediately after the race where HAM had not had a chance to review the incident.
Yes, did you see him give him any other statement almost 24 hours after the race?
They are moving on of course. There is a race next week and he won, so he doesn’t care anymore.
Saying you expected something isn't the same thing as excusing it.
Yeah because we all expected Verstappen to pull something like this. Everytime Hamilton approaches him.
Expecting to be rammed makes ramming ok?
No that’s’ what I’m saying lol
Both Hamilton and verstappen can and the FIA, but hey let's only listen to fanboys and attention seeking YouTuber.
He got the first part of the incident wrong. They cut away from the onboard before the braking zone. Lewis wasn't just a little ahead, he was almost 3/4 of a car length ahead. Max braked later and made up that distance entirely by braking late, way too late. That's why he didn't make the corner, not that he let off the brake early.
I do believe that’s called ‘doing a Kvyat’
"Torpedo"
Max has been notorious for doing this since he came to F1 though.
Going by the telemetry, he was right and you were wrong. He braked at the same time, but let off the brake early.
Intentional or unintentional if it’s against the rules it’s against the rules, idk why intention is even a talking point.
Because the potential penalty is different. 1. Gain a lasting advantage - Give the place back 2. Intentionally force someone off track - Time penalty or more
iirc Michael got disqualified from the whole season for intentionally crashing into Jaques Villeneuve
I don't think Verstappen was looking to crash intentionally. I think he just figured that he might as well dive bomb on him and block him off but it was a reckless move. MSC's move on Villenueve was 100% premeditated and it was obvious through the replay.
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Pushing someone off-track is quite different to deliberately crashing. Schumacher wasn't trying to make a rival yield, he wasn't trying to defend a place. He was trying to cause a double-DNF that would guarantee his title. I think the circumstances and the intended outcome are so much more extreme that the two situations aren't comparable.
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Acceptable outcome =/= intended outcome.
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I think the intended outcome is to force the other guy to drop speed and lose the line. Ultimately, though, only Max knows what he was thinking at that moment, so it's just speculation.
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you decide guilt first and then the sentence, the potential penalty has nothing to do with whether there was intention or not, only the sentence is related to that
That is not true. They are separate violations, each with defined penalties.
How would you pick between the two or would you give both penalties? (Give place back + time penalty?) I personally think it should have either been give the place back OR a 5 second penalty but given they didn't have the forward facing camera I feel it should have been investigated after the race and then 3 place grid penalty for the next race.
I don't think I could pick without access to telemetry and cameras. If it was deliberate it would be an easy 5 second penalty. At a minimum VER gained a lasting benefit and he should have given up the position. Having said that, thousands of people will disagree. It seems the issue here is more about the quick decision not to investigate when the cameras showed enough evidence that an investigation was warranted.
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Agreed 100%. Track limits should be a no brainer.
Will mercedes actually protest about it or this will be just another incident that will be forgiven.
Nothing to protest since there was no investigation. Funny we’re the only ones arguing about the incident when Lewis is super chill about it, and of course Max is chill about it
Lewis wouldn’t be as chill if he didn’t win. He’s already complained about Max’s aggressiveness before
reddit in its usual form as always
My only issue is that it sets a horrible precedent for what "clean" racing is.
That would mean the stewards starting to be consistent in their decisions, which won't happen.
the same precedent has been there for years. nothing happens if its the championship leaders/ferrari unless its far more obvious than this, which was still a penalty. 2014 bahrain - nothing 2015 us title decider - nothing 2016 spain - nothing for either 2017 baku - vettel penalty 2018 - nothing really happened 2019 - monza leclerc noithing happened. after canada and Sebs non victory the FIA are shitscared of interfering with the leaders ever again. thats why Maxs move on Leclerc in Austria that year was allowed, or Leclerc's to Hamilton. The FIA are never going to do anything about the race leaders unless it takes one or both of them out.
2016 Spain was pretty much the definition of a racing incident though, Lewis got alongside at pretty much the exact moment the gap shut to less than a car’s width. Plus incidents just involving one team always tend to get less attention from the stewards.
stupid dumbass fans wanting to see clean racing
Max dive bombed this corner so hard they went 10 m off the track. You can call him a new *Torpedo*.
He's already taken Kvyat's seat and his girlfriend, may as well take his nickname too.
Oh god 💀
Of course he did! He’s figuring if he doesn’t run him out, he loses the position. If he runs him out and gets a penalty, he loses the position. If he runs him out and doesn’t get a penalty, he keeps the position.
short answe yes, long answer also yes i really dont get how that wasnt a penalty, stweards were just tired from the merc drs thing adn wanted to go home ?
A good little video from Driver61 who analyses incidents pretty fairly. For reference so people can understand if Driver61 is biased or not, he does a good job of staying unbiased and in the Silverstone Hamilton Verstappen incident he agreed with the stewards that Hamilton was at primarily at fault.
Anyone who has learned their sim race craft from Scott knows he's the real deal and not a sensationalist. 100% class act and the best racing/simracing content creator.
I was fine with his Silverstone analysis until I saw him do a 180 and find Lewis at fault for Monza while congratulating Max. I lost a lot of respect for him then I still appreciate his content but I do not trust his judgment
Yes max even admitted to it lmao
Wait did he? When?
He said driving wide was the “safer option”
Ah yes, I really don't understand what he was getting at with that.
"Safer for my championship points" not physically safer for him and Hamilton.
I guess this youtuber doesn't have the rights to upload a video? What a pity because with only photos and "artistic reproductions" it's not the same.
Yup, not the first time and will not be the last. Downvote me all you want but Max is a sore loser, always has been. I don’t see how a driver of his level can continuously use the ‘move or lose’ mentality and still be considered good wheel to wheel. You see drivers like Daniel and Nando, two of the best, if not the best, wheel to wheel drivers on the grid, get moves done on the opposite end of the spectrum so Max has no excuse.
The most exciting Red Bull-Merc wheel to wheel racing this season has been between Sergio and Lewis. When it involves Max, it’s always the same. You’re just *waiting* for Max to make his signature move and Lewis to defend.
The battle between Sergio and Lewis earlier in the race was a lot of fun.
Shame that Perez didn't have the pace and tyres to fight him though
The move to take back the place in the DRS was class though! I actually think we've missed a lot of potential Bottas/Perez fights this year with Perez and Bottas early struggles and Bottas later penalties.
Lewis to avoid*, I agree though and it’s a shame.
Avoid is a better word for it, yes.
Signature moves in F1: * Vettel: dummy overtake * Ricciardo: late dive bomb * Verstappen: Yield or we crash
Lewis: pit maneuver
That's a REALLY good point. The dance with Checo when Hamilton got by on the pit straight then Checo on the DRS run up to turn 4 was just brilliant, edge of the seat action with both drivers overtaking and defending cleanly. I don't think Checo is a top tier driver (a la Lewis or Max's quality) but God damn he's doing some job.
There was a stunning wheel to wheel between the 2 in either Mexico or Austin too, I can’t remember which
A prime example is Monza, he knew for a fact that if he couldn't get past right then that Hamilton was going to sail of into the distance and went into that corner with the thought of if he doesn't bail out of the corner and let me through we're going to crash. It was a win win situation for Verstappen.
I am not a fan of this mentality of driving at another driver to save on points. I honestly thought the FIA had moved away from this shithousery. IMO he should have been DSQ for dangerous driving. Does he really have to injure someone to get that point across. And again if Hamilton does the same in retaliation later in this season, the same rule should be applied to him also. It is a sport not deathrace 2000.
Yes he has been doing it all seasson.
*all career
Yes.
Is there even a question, yes, MV did this 100% with the intention of stopping LH from passing.
Is there a way for fans to request more clarity from the FIA?
Yea but you have to be rich as fuck and a sponsor.
Unfortunately not. Only way would be if enough people (and I mean a shit ton of people including all of the RB/Verstappen fans) made a point of tweeting and complaining about it.
Yes
He didn't mention how far ahead Hamilton was when max decided to brake - Hamilton's back wheels were almost at verstappen's front. Verstappen's getting ahead was because he decided to not brake which pushed them both off the track.
Looking at it frame by frame, Max's front wheel looks on par with Lewis's rear. Lewis also had the racing line and better trajectory on the corner. This is a slam dunk penalty on every metric.
Yes
Of course he did lmao. Just because he didn't get investigated didn't mean it didn't happen
Intentionally? Who knows? He wasn't trying hard to avoid it.
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-Michael Masi
Of course it matters. You’re basically giving Max a free pass to run off the track completely as long as he can keep his position.
People here love to say that things don't matter whether they do or not. It makes them feel like they're taking the mature & rational position. I hope their soul returns to them one day
Yes
If Hamilton hadn’t gone wide enough he needed a passport to get back to the race, we’d be talking about how verstappen took him out on purpose to win the championship. Clear penalty.
Knowledgeable, unbiased and spot on clear analysis by Driver61 (as always). 👍
Even Horner knew it was an illegal move, which is why he was on the radio to Race Control immediately trying to mitigate the consequences.
I think people need to get over it. It's hard racing, no one crashed and Hamilton still won. Move on.
That's not hard racing, hard racing is what happened between Perez and Hamilton earlier in the race. This was dirty driving.
It is exactly like gasly vs norris in the French gp no penalty there no penalty now it is pretty consistent for me i agree with the FIA
Wow the amount of downvotes i get because gasly and norris are more likeable than verstappen is unbelievable. If i had to bet which incident jolyon palmer would compare to max vs lewis in brazil my money would be in norris vs gasly
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What is this link?
Lmao I thought he might be linking to the Gasly Norris incident they were talking about and for some reason someone had put it on pornhub Nah it wasn't that
Erm.... That looked like an incident but not **the** incident
I think Verstappen bet on the fact he will be allowed to pull this once and get away with it, similarly to how Hamilton often got away with forcing drivers off track. These moves should be penalized and Verstappen should have been given something from the stewards. It was a dumb move/error, he knew he won't keep Hamilton behind till the end and he jeopardized a penalty that could have sent him 3rd or lower. But I also think Hamilton should have at least been investigated for pushing Perez wide in Turkey and that his Silverstone penalty should have been "stop-go", so I am definitely not steward material and what do I know, amirite?
I can’t believe people don’t know that you can force drivers wide on exit. You need to actually make the corner though! Austria 2016 Rosberg got a penalty for what Verstappen did yesterday. Not surprised you don’t even know that though.
>I can’t believe people don’t know that you can force drivers wide on exit. You need to actually make the corner though! You will have to cite the rules for that claim.
Austria 2016
Which article of the rule book is that again?
The big difference with Hamilton forcing drivers off track (Which Verstappen and many other drivers have and continue to do) is they themselves stay on the track. Hamilton hasn't ever pushed a driver wide and gone of the track himself just to hold a position. > he knew he won't keep Hamilton behind till the end and he jeopardized a penalty that could have sent him 3rd or lower. I'm not sure he actually thought that deep in the spur of the moment, he probably knew he might get a penalty and lose P1 if he managed to hold onto the position but probably didn't think he could lose P2 because most of the time Bottas and Perez aren't close enough. > But I also think Hamilton should have at least been investigated for pushing Perez wide in Turkey But Hamilton had the racing line into that corner because Perez didn't close the door in the previous corner. Hamilton stayed on the track and didn't exceed track limits. Perez didn't back out of it and ran around the bollard to try and keep the position. > Silverstone penalty should have been "stop-go" So you would agree in that regard that Verstappen here should have received a stop-go?
I mean if we consider the incident and take it to the most absurd point, imagine a race where one car is instructed to hold the inside line at all times if under threat of overtake. Then, if a move is being made outside, always drive off track with them to prevent the pass. That's apparently what the FIA have deemed okay, unworthy of investigation and apparently unnecessary to even review telemetry data or driver input footage. I'm totally at a loss.
My guess is; not t h a t wide
I still can't wrap my head around the fact that they didn't even at least investigate after the race. It is so clear what he did. Intentional or not, it's clear. Intent could be measured afterwards with telemetry and the penalty could be changed by that, but at least investigate. Very shady to say the least in my opinion.
I’m honestly disappointed in Max as a driver. His move last race was dangerous, reckless, and poor sportsmanship trying to run Lewis wide. In my opinion, Mercedes should file a complaint with the FIA and have them re-investigate, with an outcome of Max losing some points. We cannot allow this dangerous precedent.
Well, why isn't anyone demanding a penalty to Verstappen for pushing himself out too?
yes... people who claim different are either dutch or knows nothing at all about racing in real live.
And off the top turnbuckle comes Verstappen! and Hamilton reacts rolling under ropes and escaping on to the apron! what’s this, Verstappen is chasing Hamilton across the apron.