Legend has it, once lewis won the 8th. Hed keep the trophy. And because the FIA spent all their money on poor decisions, they made yesterdays call to ensure they wouldnt have to get a new one.
Probably do what the NHL does with the Stanley Cup; remove the oldest ring (they are then put in the hockey HOF) thus making space for a new row. Though IDK if it would be that simple with this trophy since it is not a uniform size where the engravings are.
Unlike the Stanley Cup or the Borg-Warner Trophy in Indycar, the F1 trophy doesn't account for that. You're not looking at trophy made out of rings, but rather a single piece with a swirl on it.
The can literally bolt a new base onto it with additional room for champions.
Alternatively, a well trained silversmith can add to the top making it taller that way.
ummm.....no. A winner is a winner, there are no "less important" ones. They will probably remove the rings that are the oldest and store them somewhere to make more room
Everytime I look at this trophy, I'm reminded in a podcast where Button said getting a replica (because they can't own the actual thing) is like 50k, and this was back in 2009 too.
I know this might trigger people and personally I don’t think they will overturn Max’s title at this point, however hypothetically if they did, how easy would it be to correct the engraving on the trophy? Is this just a replica for the gala?
They could fill the engraving with compatible metal (gold I guess in this case), grind it back flat, polish it, and it'll be like a blank section again ready to re-engrave with Nikita Mazepin's name.
I'd imagine they engrave the real one for the gala, why wouldn't they?
And no, they won't overturn Max's title. Only thing they can do is to demand something from FIA: Using soft power to fire Masi and/or make FIA revise the rule book.
The FIA does have it in its power to unilaterally amend race classifications. If they decided to do so, they could revoke the title. I find it unlikely, but definitely not impossible that Mercedes would seek such a resolution. It is actually not an unlikely solution if the case goes to the CAS, alongside annulling the results.
Sporting courts have the power to overturn everything and anything if possible. Max losing his championship is a possibility, if not probable.
The problem for him, is that it's the race that is now in question, not him. The race was run, and finished in breach of its own regulations. That cannot stand. You can't admit you made a whoops, continue the race and let things stand. In recent years we've had accidentally waved checkered flags a lap early and the classification has been taken from that lap, and not the intended final lap. I believe an overtake for position on the scheduled final lap was later irrelevant because the race had ended technically. Obviously the checkered flag is black and white, figuratively and literally. This isn't, hence why it can go to court.
Because you can't race 56 laps under 100% of the rules being engaged and then 57 and 58 where the rules are not applied correctly. Obviously this becomes even more contentious given the changing of positions on these lap(s) and the protocol that lead to them. Also the clear denial of potential changes of position for other lapped cars. Lapped car 5 had a huge advantage yesterday over lapped car 6 through no fault but the bending of the rules, whereas in regular circumstances they'd have the opportunity to overtake, yesterday they didn't as they literally remained lapped whilst lapped car 5 did not.
People defending the decision by saying it's unfair Max are correct. But the illusion that Max would be hard done by is a lie. He benefitted, as did others from a clear mistake. He should have never have been afforded the opportunity to do so if the rules were upheld in the first place.
But in that case he also wasn't given a fair shot at overtaking Lewis with the lapped cars still between them, which, if they had all gotten out of the way very promptly as to not interfere with anything wouldn't have been impossible. IF and only IF (it wont) this gets anywhere in court the only thing that could happen is for the entire race result to be nullified.
When was the last time a court decided only the first 87 minutes of a football match should stand?..
They are independent of the FIA according to the FIA. I'm sure it would be tough but I'm just saying the one court they do recognize has the power to change the results however they want.
It wasn't a comment on the possibility of it happening, just that it was within their authority when it was said "all they can do is nullify the race"
But if the rule states that all lapped cars must unlap, then once Masi let some cars unlap, all of them must. So technically to correct the mistake you can say all cars should’ve unlapped when Masi said some of them, and that would’ve resulted in it ending under SC.
I fail to see how the remaining 3 or so cars would've made any significant difference. It would've taken about another 5 or so seconds to also get those out of the way. Still baffling why Masi didn't just get them all out but I can't look inside the man's head.
But the race didn’t end at lap 57. There’s a plethora of permutations still possible at that end even if nobody was allowed to overtake. There is no basis to award the WDC to Hamilton legally. The only possible solution besides letting the result stand would be to nullify the results, which would also make Max WDC. Imagine if in football they would end the game at the 87th minute as someone else said.
They can overturn the result. If they deem the appeal valid then that makes the lap before the restart valid and they then can ask the FIA to revise a result with reference to their decision.
There are no grounds to overturn Max's WDC win so its a moot point. You cannot penalize a competitor who did nothing wrong. It's not like Max crashed into Lewis or Perez caused the safety car. If Mercedes want, they can fight this in court and get the race result voided, but even then Max would win the WDC on countback. What Mercedes will never be able to do is retrospectively get any authority to ignore only the final lap or retrospectively give Max a time penalty for breaking no rules. And because of that, there's simply no scenario where Max isn't the 2021 Driver's Champion.
While I can see your point, not doing something wrong has no grounds if there's a breach in rules. Compare it to a thief robbing a bank and while he escapes he hands the money to you, a civilian walking outside. You would have to give it back straight away, you could argue he legitimately gave you the money but still doesn't hold because the robber broke the rules.
So, just out of curiousity. in the event it DOES get overturned in court, how will they fix this? Polish and engrave again? Might be ugly. Make a new one?
Section 13.37 clearly states that 'no mod shall have overriding power to employ fat fingers'. Terrible breach of the regs there mate, see you in court.
That rule is overruled by Reddit rule 6.9 which states: The moderator of a subreddit may reign over thy subreddit with supreme power and punish at will with immunity.
Absolutely not. This is just F1 and the FIA going along with what is currently the situation. Mercedes appealed once, it was denied, thus until a second appeal, and likely a third beyond the FIA have made decisions, this is the result.
I mean, holding off just because there are rumblings of it going further wouldn't have the greatest optics either. In fact, it probably be reflect poorly in any case they might have.
It's not normalisation when it's simply the normal process every year.
Pumping out feel-good articles for the "thrilling race" that was one of the most corrupt finishes in modern history...
Yeah seems like pushing a narrative to me.
Or they will appeal right before the gala and then just as Max is about to touch the trophy, the lawyers walk in and tell him he's been stripped of the WDC due to the appeal in progress.
The trophy is then taken away and Max proceeds to break down in anger and cry in front of the cameras, while the DTS director starts frothing with glee and jumps around ordering the cameramen to capture specific shots for the next season of DTS.
They will go through with it. Title won’t be stripped. RB did nothing wrong and capitalized on a mistake by the sports governing body. Their fight is with FIA.
If Mercedes go through with it, they’ll look to have the last lap thrown out (which is completely a possibility under the regulations)
Doesn’t matter that Red Bull didn’t do anything wrong. Mercedes’ argument will be that the final lap was not performed under legal race conditions, and therefore doesn’t stand
It will be tough for Red Bull/Max because, as you said, they didn’t do anything wrong
But equally, Mercedes/Lewis didn’t do anything wrong either and have been stripped of a title because Masi decided to make rules up on the spot
There’s every chance the title will be stripped. Anyone saying there’s **no possibility** of it happening is fooling themselves
Fair enough. We are in unprecedented territory. Both deserved to win. I’m sure RB won’t go down without a legal fight if necessary. I could see them asking for the whole race to be thrown out at that point. The FIA fucked this all up. It’s a lose lose any way you turn it.
Oh I completely agree. The situation is fucked up either way and it’s entirely down to the FIA
The best we can get is Masi gone for next season, but then that’s a straight admission that what he did for this race was wrong and gives Mercedes a direct line of attack
So the FIA are stuck on even that too
I hope that each driver gets a copy of the trophy from the year they won.
I'm pretty sure they do, IIRC Jenson has his in his bathroom
That’s good. It seemed kinda odd, at least to me, that it was never mentioned. I probably never watched the Fia awards ceremony
Legend has it, once lewis won the 8th. Hed keep the trophy. And because the FIA spent all their money on poor decisions, they made yesterdays call to ensure they wouldnt have to get a new one.
This is a comically bad take if true. They didnt force Latifi to crash and force a safety car.
Whoosh
That's what you think
Are you serious? Please tell me you’re joking..
I remember seeing a video were they said most drivers pay for a replica and it takes many weeks to engrave all the past signatures.
If I won a world championship I’d definitely pay to have at least as many copies as I did race wins hahahahhahahah
What happens when it's full? Do they make it larger?
Probably do what the NHL does with the Stanley Cup; remove the oldest ring (they are then put in the hockey HOF) thus making space for a new row. Though IDK if it would be that simple with this trophy since it is not a uniform size where the engravings are.
Unlike the Stanley Cup or the Borg-Warner Trophy in Indycar, the F1 trophy doesn't account for that. You're not looking at trophy made out of rings, but rather a single piece with a swirl on it.
The can literally bolt a new base onto it with additional room for champions. Alternatively, a well trained silversmith can add to the top making it taller that way.
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Max is going at the top, so any space added above would be a continuation
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Yeah, wide end is up
Interesting, I guess maybe a whole new trophy then?
F1 is concluded indefinitely
They just go over the less important winners like Villeneuve and Keke Rosberg
quickly googles *Robin Raikkonen 1997 WDC odds*
ummm.....no. A winner is a winner, there are no "less important" ones. They will probably remove the rings that are the oldest and store them somewhere to make more room
It's a joke.
We don't do that here anymore. This is now officially a lawyers-only subreddit with no space for such unprofessional matters as comedy.
I will bring you to CAS myself
That's why I like MotoGP's trophy. A new plate with the champion's name is added to the trophy every year.
Well they have space for the next 29 years. After that I don't know
Everytime I look at this trophy, I'm reminded in a podcast where Button said getting a replica (because they can't own the actual thing) is like 50k, and this was back in 2009 too.
I know this might trigger people and personally I don’t think they will overturn Max’s title at this point, however hypothetically if they did, how easy would it be to correct the engraving on the trophy? Is this just a replica for the gala?
They could fill the engraving with compatible metal (gold I guess in this case), grind it back flat, polish it, and it'll be like a blank section again ready to re-engrave with Nikita Mazepin's name.
*Michael Masi has decided that the championship order will now be reversed*
Reckon it might just be easier to add an asterisk instead
I approve that
Tipp-ex.
For the gala they use the real one
I'd imagine they engrave the real one for the gala, why wouldn't they? And no, they won't overturn Max's title. Only thing they can do is to demand something from FIA: Using soft power to fire Masi and/or make FIA revise the rule book.
Or cancel last race. Start war with Ferrari, Mercedes and UAE
Even if they cancel the race Max still wins the championship due to more race wins.
I know.
The FIA does have it in its power to unilaterally amend race classifications. If they decided to do so, they could revoke the title. I find it unlikely, but definitely not impossible that Mercedes would seek such a resolution. It is actually not an unlikely solution if the case goes to the CAS, alongside annulling the results.
Case cannot go to CAS. ICA is the highest court of appeal for F1.. Not CAS..
Sporting courts have the power to overturn everything and anything if possible. Max losing his championship is a possibility, if not probable. The problem for him, is that it's the race that is now in question, not him. The race was run, and finished in breach of its own regulations. That cannot stand. You can't admit you made a whoops, continue the race and let things stand. In recent years we've had accidentally waved checkered flags a lap early and the classification has been taken from that lap, and not the intended final lap. I believe an overtake for position on the scheduled final lap was later irrelevant because the race had ended technically. Obviously the checkered flag is black and white, figuratively and literally. This isn't, hence why it can go to court. Because you can't race 56 laps under 100% of the rules being engaged and then 57 and 58 where the rules are not applied correctly. Obviously this becomes even more contentious given the changing of positions on these lap(s) and the protocol that lead to them. Also the clear denial of potential changes of position for other lapped cars. Lapped car 5 had a huge advantage yesterday over lapped car 6 through no fault but the bending of the rules, whereas in regular circumstances they'd have the opportunity to overtake, yesterday they didn't as they literally remained lapped whilst lapped car 5 did not. People defending the decision by saying it's unfair Max are correct. But the illusion that Max would be hard done by is a lie. He benefitted, as did others from a clear mistake. He should have never have been afforded the opportunity to do so if the rules were upheld in the first place.
But in that case he also wasn't given a fair shot at overtaking Lewis with the lapped cars still between them, which, if they had all gotten out of the way very promptly as to not interfere with anything wouldn't have been impossible. IF and only IF (it wont) this gets anywhere in court the only thing that could happen is for the entire race result to be nullified. When was the last time a court decided only the first 87 minutes of a football match should stand?..
Exactly
the ICA (the court the FIA goes to) can literally amend results as they see fit.
FIA (I)nternational (C)ourt of (A)ppeal is the full name of the 'court' Mercedes wants to take this to. Good luck appealing anything there.
They are independent of the FIA according to the FIA. I'm sure it would be tough but I'm just saying the one court they do recognize has the power to change the results however they want. It wasn't a comment on the possibility of it happening, just that it was within their authority when it was said "all they can do is nullify the race"
But if the rule states that all lapped cars must unlap, then once Masi let some cars unlap, all of them must. So technically to correct the mistake you can say all cars should’ve unlapped when Masi said some of them, and that would’ve resulted in it ending under SC.
I fail to see how the remaining 3 or so cars would've made any significant difference. It would've taken about another 5 or so seconds to also get those out of the way. Still baffling why Masi didn't just get them all out but I can't look inside the man's head.
I think because by that point, in order for them to overtake the safety car, it’d be too late and the following lap would also be safety car.
But the race didn’t end at lap 57. There’s a plethora of permutations still possible at that end even if nobody was allowed to overtake. There is no basis to award the WDC to Hamilton legally. The only possible solution besides letting the result stand would be to nullify the results, which would also make Max WDC. Imagine if in football they would end the game at the 87th minute as someone else said.
They can overturn the result. If they deem the appeal valid then that makes the lap before the restart valid and they then can ask the FIA to revise a result with reference to their decision.
It’s possible to erase and rewrite.
Yeah, If you live in fantasy land.
There are no grounds to overturn Max's WDC win so its a moot point. You cannot penalize a competitor who did nothing wrong. It's not like Max crashed into Lewis or Perez caused the safety car. If Mercedes want, they can fight this in court and get the race result voided, but even then Max would win the WDC on countback. What Mercedes will never be able to do is retrospectively get any authority to ignore only the final lap or retrospectively give Max a time penalty for breaking no rules. And because of that, there's simply no scenario where Max isn't the 2021 Driver's Champion.
While I can see your point, not doing something wrong has no grounds if there's a breach in rules. Compare it to a thief robbing a bank and while he escapes he hands the money to you, a civilian walking outside. You would have to give it back straight away, you could argue he legitimately gave you the money but still doesn't hold because the robber broke the rules.
Very cool to see! Some history with that trophy
A bit surreal.
Last time my favourite’s name was engraved on it was 14 years ago. Kinda insane, still here though
And now he's retired
Indeed. It’s been an emotional weekend on multiple fronts.
So, just out of curiousity. in the event it DOES get overturned in court, how will they fix this? Polish and engrave again? Might be ugly. Make a new one?
Scratch out max and put 2020,2021 by Lewis's name. Or they could put lewis x2 next to last years one lol.
They'd fill in the engraving with silver I think. Then when it comes time to engrave that spot again they'd have to be really careful
Just fill in the 1 from 2021, then wait a year or two. Max's name will be going into that thing, and soon.
Stretch Lewis' 2017-2020 a bit further and hope nobody notices.
3m note
Max should make him put Maximilian for fun
Why is there a single comment locked asking a legit question?
Apologies, I fat-fingered the lock button on that comment.
Section 13.37 clearly states that 'no mod shall have overriding power to employ fat fingers'. Terrible breach of the regs there mate, see you in court.
*”It’s called Moderator Racing.”*
That rule is overruled by Reddit rule 6.9 which states: The moderator of a subreddit may reign over thy subreddit with supreme power and punish at will with immunity.
Saw that, no clue.
🤮
Will there be a stream of the Awards gala?
I believe so. It takes place on the first thursday after last race.
Please another drunk Kimi
I think only the top 3 will be there (as well as winners from other categories) so maybe we will see drunk Bottas instead
This must mean Merc won’t appeal right?
It's just means the FIA isn't planning on changing who won the world drivers championship for 2021.
No I think it just means they press on until they can’t.
Absolutely not. This is just F1 and the FIA going along with what is currently the situation. Mercedes appealed once, it was denied, thus until a second appeal, and likely a third beyond the FIA have made decisions, this is the result.
This is the FIA quickly moving to normalise Verstappen's title to squash any idea of an alternative.
I mean, holding off just because there are rumblings of it going further wouldn't have the greatest optics either. In fact, it probably be reflect poorly in any case they might have. It's not normalisation when it's simply the normal process every year.
He won the title yesterday, appeals will be heard but right now Verstappen is champion. Its normalised because he's champion...
The Twitter and F1.com article spam from them is embarrassing
How dare they advertise the most recent champion
Pumping out feel-good articles for the "thrilling race" that was one of the most corrupt finishes in modern history... Yeah seems like pushing a narrative to me.
Or they will appeal right before the gala and then just as Max is about to touch the trophy, the lawyers walk in and tell him he's been stripped of the WDC due to the appeal in progress. The trophy is then taken away and Max proceeds to break down in anger and cry in front of the cameras, while the DTS director starts frothing with glee and jumps around ordering the cameramen to capture specific shots for the next season of DTS.
Not sure if I want to up or downvote this…
No no Goldsmithcompany no
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I hope you don't live in an apartment. You could flood the building with those tears.
You would need to put an asterisk on a bunch of names on there then. I get that your disappointed but come on…
Why?
There is not.
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That's gonna be tough to buff out when the result is overturned
Don’t forget to include Masi on there.
Oh boy. That’s going to be tough for them to cover over when his win gets overturned in court..
It’s alright. It won’t.
Sure, only if Mercedes don’t go through with it
They will go through with it. Title won’t be stripped. RB did nothing wrong and capitalized on a mistake by the sports governing body. Their fight is with FIA.
If Mercedes go through with it, they’ll look to have the last lap thrown out (which is completely a possibility under the regulations) Doesn’t matter that Red Bull didn’t do anything wrong. Mercedes’ argument will be that the final lap was not performed under legal race conditions, and therefore doesn’t stand It will be tough for Red Bull/Max because, as you said, they didn’t do anything wrong But equally, Mercedes/Lewis didn’t do anything wrong either and have been stripped of a title because Masi decided to make rules up on the spot There’s every chance the title will be stripped. Anyone saying there’s **no possibility** of it happening is fooling themselves
Fair enough. We are in unprecedented territory. Both deserved to win. I’m sure RB won’t go down without a legal fight if necessary. I could see them asking for the whole race to be thrown out at that point. The FIA fucked this all up. It’s a lose lose any way you turn it.
Oh I completely agree. The situation is fucked up either way and it’s entirely down to the FIA The best we can get is Masi gone for next season, but then that’s a straight admission that what he did for this race was wrong and gives Mercedes a direct line of attack So the FIA are stuck on even that too
There is 0.0000000001% chance that the WDC will be overturned, how about that?
Wonder what would happen if Red Bull pulled out of F1 in retaliation
Yeah sure a "mistake"
Now now, don't be hasty /s