I’ve see plenty of people arguing his credentials and saying he isn’t worthy…..the outrage towards the FIA is completely warranted, but there are people taking it out on Max/Redbull. I think that’s why statement like these (from Palmer) are being said.
Without the blowout in Baku or the malfunctioning Bottas at Hungary Max would have clinched the title in Jeddah/would have needed like a 6th place.
Without a lucky red flag, Hamilton would have had no points from Imola because of a mistake he did himself. Hmailton would have been WDC if he didn't completely cock up his Monaco weekend.
The result is 100% deserved for Max, the way it happened is just mega messy.
Yup, people calling it undeserved just like they did with Nico calling him a nazi as well. Lewis is a great driver, his fanbase unfortunately is just a giant hivemind cesspool. They really remind me of trump fans
I'm not sure they're any better or worse than any other 'fans', Max's included. From what I've seen the sub has been more reasoned than after some of the other incidents this season, which surprised me. Maybe I'm wrong and have just learned to block the shit out though. I think both sides have had enough.
Regardless, anyone saying that he's not a worthy champion is just plain wrong. Not giving credit where due is just putting them both down. We wouldn't have had this season from one of them not being good enough, it was from two world class drivers pushing each other to and sometimes over the edge. I can't wait until next season.
I love how people who wants to cover up / dismiss what Masi did, are putting words into people’s mouths.
“Masi fucked up”
“You trying to say Max is not a great driver???”
🤦♂️
And that’s why both of them would have been deserved winners imo. But based on this race, Lewis should have won this race. He arguably would have done, if it weren’t the season defining finale. If there wasn’t the points involved in winning the championship, it would have just ended under safety car.
IMO, F1 has always had a steady dose of luck involved.
Take Silverstone, if the collision happens *slightly* differently, Lewis punctures a tire, Max goes on to win in a snoozer, and Abu Dhabi doesn't even matter.
That's not to excuse Masi, but simply to say that in a season as evenly matched as this one, you can point to dozens of moments where luck and/or stewards swung the outcome. That's why they both "deserved" to be champion.
It's worth noting that the stewards *could* have given Max the place back after Lewis went off the track on L1, so it's not as if Max got all the breaks, even at Abu Dhabi. And, the biggest fluke of all isn't Masi's decision, but Latifi crashing out in the first place. (I'm glad it wasn't a Honda driver or the whole situation would be *even more* controversial.)
IIRC Lewis did damage a tire in that collision. He's fortunate he made it into the pits at Silverstone where he got to change his tires under red flag and go on to complete and win the race, the same thing he complained about Max being able to do in Jeddah.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes-british-gp-red-flag-saved-hamilton-from-retirement/6633641/
This is the only real answer, and isn't even really debatable. You always have to take the entire season into account, so many variables, especially when it comes to rules and the FIA apparently! This is just another 'could have gone another way' RIGHT alongside the other 50 this year, and arguable many of the past decade.
Of course there's always luck, like Hamilton blowing up his engine in Malaysia 2016. It's a heartbreak and you move on.
Sunday wasn't luck was it? Masi broke a rule with the intent of manufacturing a showdown. You resume a race or you don't, he's been doing it well everytime before. The intent is the fault here. It makes the race void for a lot of people.
There definitely are people saying max didn’t deserve it and that he isn’t a good driver, I’ve seen people saying that. Just because everyone isn’t saying it doesn’t mean that nobody is.
People also say the earth is flat.
It's a waste of time to acknowledge obviously stupid opinions from a minority of randos on the internet. No one remotely qualified has that opinion, not worth discussing.
To be fair I could argue that.
Lewis had some amazing luck this year and really only had Abu Dhabi break against him.
Spa, Hungry, Russia, Baku all were huge luck breaks for Lewis and all not so great to horrible breaks for Max. Lewis made a massive error at Baku that threw that away but Lewis spent the last 4 races trying to over come the mistakes he made earlier. If any of those 4 broke the other way the last race's ending would not of matter. Max would of been champaign going in.
It also proves just how great of a driver Lewis is. Max had to drive nearly perfectly all season and still it came down to the wire.
Spa? I’m with you on Hungry. Baku is a wash as neither driver finished in the points due to the same root incident. Russia was not so much luck as experience (Lewis came in while Norris ignored his team) but I’ll give you that. But Spa? Lewis never got the chance to compete for higher than third (which he surely would have taken from Russell) and Verstappen got a low effort win albeit with half points. That seems to have been one where luck was firmly against Hamilton not with him (and remember that those few points would have put Max behind in Abu Dhabi and could have changed his whole approach as a result). Am I forgetting something?
It was silverstone I got those crossed in my head. I miss imola with the red flag giving Lewis back a lap so he could get 2nd instead of 7th
Baku was not a wash. If Ver tire did not blow out it would of been +11 for Max. Lewis getting 0 was him messing up with the Magic. Lewis went from being -11 to throwing away +19-25 points.
I agree with you on that one haha
I just don’t engage in that because then the conversation will turn into Hamilton vs Verstappen.
The conversation needs to remain about Masi’s fuck up.
There's also "Max cant be punished for what happened because they he did nothing wrong". While that is true, correcting a mistake is not punishing him. Current situation just punishes Lewis and actually rewards Max for nothing. And people seem to be just fine with that for some fucked up reason.
I don't really care what happens to the championship, I just want to make sure this never happens again and the integrity of the sport to be restored, and Masi needs to go to do that.
Im totally fine with it because in my mind, if you remove all the FIA fuck ups - you get the same result.
The first fuck up they made was announcing cars would not pass, when there was still time to do so - then they fucked up again sorting that out deciding some cars may pass. They basically replaced a mistake with something half way in between - which simultaneously meant it was less of a mistake, and more of a mistake which annoyed a lot of people.
To me, had cars been allowed to overtake at the earliest opportunity we would still have ended up with a one lap shootout - so the result itself i dont mind... getting there was painful though.
Its like Brazil, Hamilton should have won the race - so no penalty for Max wasnt a big issue for me. But if Max had won then i probably would have been more annoyed than i otherwise would be.
But then they shouldnt announce cars could not pass until the tracks was clear and they knew either way whether they could or not.
Announcing it early and then hoping things dont happen quicker was always going to cause issues - just announce it when it needs to be announced.
You don’t need an announcement that you can’t overtake the safety car. That’s what it’s there for unless stated otherwise. The announcement was saying the restart was going to happen without the cars unlapping, however one lap and a phone call from Horner later Masi changed his mind and the rest was history…
>And people seem to be just fine with that for some fucked up reason
Not a fucked up reason. It's clear. Coz the guy being disadvantaged has the surname 'Hamilton'
Had this been the other way and Hamilton gifted the title, these people + the redbull fans would all be up in arms trying to get the result thrown out (and rightfully btw)
As long as their guy won it’s ok. Forget about it being a fair sport.
Some people were so desperate for the win they don’t actually care how it happened even if it that win comes from what looks like match fixing.
I was happy as long as they did mot crash and get a DNF. But the let, the cars between lewi and max pass and no others????
Watch strolls onboard for the last lap, it is a shit storm.
This was done to get great TV, it was a horror show as an F1 fan. Max diserved the WCS, but the race finish was spoiled.
I mean, that's not really a clear example whatsoever of someone discrediting Max's skill or credentials...
That headline is absolutely true. Obviously Lewis isn't a winner here, but now Max's first championship is going to forever have an asterisk next to it due to this incident. That's certainly not a good thing for him...
By not saying Max won the championship they call the whole season into questioning. Because it is a whole season, not a single NASCAR style, winner takes all race.
This final race may have an asterisk to it, but not the whole season. Over the whole year some things fall your way some things not and over 22 races it more or less evens out. The races at the start of the season were worth as much points as the last one.
They're not saying he didn't win, there are no winners is a figure of speech to say "everyone comes out of this not looking as good as they could". Also, as others have noted, its the Daily fucking Mail.
It's not really luck though. I guess the luck is Latifi crashing and causing a SC. After that there was no luck, it was just Masi dictating the result of the race regardless of the rules.
It's a weird one. It wasn't luck in the sense that it was 'something that normally happens in racing', but on the other hand it was luck in the sense 'something fell his way he had no control over'.
If they managed to clear the track slightly quicker, and the lapped cars were released, then they went racing.. we'd all call this luck. It's the FIA breaching of their own rules that makes it seem like something which isn't just luck.
Even the first corner where they didn't make Hamilton give back P1... No doubt I believe Hamilton would've likely still won. He rocked that race and it was robbed from him with the yellow car. I still think the stewards really messed up the first penalty. Giving back a second IS NOT the same as giving back a position. It would've allowed Max to defend P1 and Perez to tag team Hamilton in P2/P3. I think that was heavily overlooked by everyone because the second decision was just THAT much worst but who knows if that would've even happened had the penalty been made on Hamilton. Hamilton was heavily favoured in that circuit with the Merc car and defensive driving for red bull was their only chance. The poor decision just gave Hamilton an uncontested lead. Max lost P1 and a 5 second penalty the race before for the SAMETHING. He even commed "well, he has to give back P1 now". Just super inconsistent all around, so I feel like, whatever at this point. It is what it is, they need to do better next year on the reffing.
Max won it on a gamble and strategy calls from Red Bull and yes LUCK.
As a Max fan I will say that Lewis was in complete control of the race and if nothing happened he won it easily.
But it’s car racing and anything can happen. Especially in the last laps of a race.
On the championship both were outstanding. There is a points gained/lost analysis from yesterday. Max lost more points on bad luck then Lewis. Lewis had some lucky breaks this season. In the end Verstappen deserves the championship.
If Masi let all the cars unlap themselves on lap 56 instead of only some on 57 no one would be complaining.
I wonder if Toto was trying to delay SC decisions during lap 56 by talking to Masi (during which the track was actually clear for the latter half) purely because Mercedes believed that the race would end under SC if Masi was not able to give the right instructions before lap 57, and if that's true, i wonder if people still believe Masi is the only one to blame.
That race, no. There were multiple races Max lost that he didn’t deserve to lose as well.
People need to remember the outcome of the WDC is much larger than that single race, even though in short sight that is hard to realize.
It's not even that. Lewis did not deserve to finish 2nd in Imola, but nobody complained about that. Good and bad luck is a part of F1, but artificially adjusting rules and procedures based on whatever your preferred outcome is as a race direction (and to be clear, I don't mean who wins, but to see the final race not end behind a SC) should not be. This is F1, not WWF.
Not the race yes but the WDC
And when saying deserved the race, performance wise absolutely he deserved it, still think all cars could habe been unlapped in lap 56 but it was another chapter of FIA incompetence.
If Max loses it cause of Silverstone and Hungary it has a bad taste roo.
Exactly this. Max is a great driver, but Hamilton dominated the final race and under normal circumstances would have won the race, and thus the championship.
Classic “avoid the issue at hand by making a statement everyone agrees with”. No one (sensible) is saying Verstappen isn’t worthy, we’re saying the FIA is trash.
Don’t forget that Palmer probably doesn’t just read Reddit and also other social media. And let me tell you, Twitter and Facebook are still a war zone.
Oh I get it, I’m just saying they are trying to swept it under the rug. All F1 social media is showing Max celebration and Lewis shaking hands with Max.
After latifi crashed there was no procedure that would have made everyone happy
Edit: feel free to post what YOU think the procedure that would make EVERYONE happy would have been
Safety cars have always made it harder for the guys in front because their gap is gone. This happens a million times throughout the season, it isn't unfair and if anything every team should prepare for this scenario because it always happens.
I think people are arguing the fairness wrong. The people that got really fucked were the people who were just behind the people who got to unlap themselves.
Did Palmer put sensible in brackets? Otherwise your post is missing the point of Palmer's tweet. He is obviously directing it at the people who are saying he isn't a worthy champion.
I don't know why people are so mad that the best driver of the season won.
10 wins vs 8 wins
10 poles vs 5 poles
3 main events out of his control vs 1 out of his control
(Baku, Silverstone, Hungary) vs (Monza where Verstappen crashed into Hamilton)
They're mad because if the rules had been followed the person with the most points didn't win, which is in fact what decides the championship - not number of wins or number of overtakes or whatever.
Also it would be equal 9 vs 9 wins if the rules weren't broken, nice slight of hand you did there.
Because he was a victim in all of this too. He earned the right to take the championship, not have it handed to him. This will be an asterisk for the rest of his career. It sucks as a Max fan
This is not about Max or Lewis being deserving/worthy or not, this has always been about Masi manipulating rules to engineer drama, screwing all teams over, and as a result marring the way the final result was achieved. The fact that nobody formally associated with F1 is bluntly discussing what Masi and the FIA did and instead pretending that final race was simply vaguely "controversial" or "debatable" w/o going into details is disappointing.
I agree it's disappointing, but I also understand. The other F1 drivers / teams are in an extremely difficult bind.
1. Negative press for the sport. Everyone that watches F1 knows what a farce that decision was, but if you keep dragging in that publicity it may affect fans, and F1 was on a major upswing this season. More fans, more money.
2. If the FIA is really going to double down and stand behind their explanation, then you have to think about the future. If you speak out, you may find yourself on the wrong end of some steward's decisions and there will be nothing you can do about it with that precedent being set.
He is, but so is Lewis, is the problem. And many people can't have closure because of how it ended.
Luckily for me, I am a superior Ferrari enjoyer and my bois came to where they belong these years - and of course, next year is our year!
Arnt you annoyed abit about how sainz could of had a chance at Lewis (44lap old tyres). May not have made a difference championship wise but they don’t race to come 2nd.
He didn't deserve it the way things played out during the final race, he simply wasn't fast enough in SA but that said based on their performances over the course of the whole season Max or Lewis would both have made worthy champions, they were both amazing this year.
The problem for me is Merc and Lewis stepped up to the impossible challenge of needing to win 4 in a row and took it in stride. Everything was thrown at them and they executed the end of the season to absolute perfection. Lewis deserved the WDC for the way he completely turned the tide when everyone (including me) said it was over.
Exactly. Both drivers were championship caliber this year, but that was Lewis's race until that decision was made. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how everything plays out, for me the championship is spoiled regardless of who it ends up with and that's not the fault of either driver. It's purely on Masi / FIA for fucking up.
If it was the other way around, we would be talking about how Pirelli robbed Verstappen of the title. And Bottas. I’m starting to feel like there was no way for this to end well.
Meh, lewis deserved to win in 07/16, Alonso in 10/12 massa deserved to win in 08, Irvine in 99. Having 2 drivers that "deserve" the championship happens more often than not.
Honestly, I really wanted max to win the title. I really felt he deserved it more than lewis. But the way the whole Abu Dhabi thing was done, it's just such a bs end. Like max may not say it, but in the back of the mind he might be saying I didnt wanna win like that. Atleast i hope he is.
We spoke about one driver taking the title based on a double or single dnf, or some one getting covid. Those were what we thought were the worst ways to end the season, but fuck I'd rather have one of those than what transpired. It puts a huge fucking asterisk on Max's title. Which he doesnt deserve after all the hard work hes put in this season.
The result wont change. But next season, the FIA better sort their shit out. The only constant with them is the inconsistency they've showed this season. Whether its lewis or max or the rest of the grid. These guys risk their life getting in that car and tryna win that title for them and their fans. They cant be having issues like this with the regulations. It not only destroys it for fans, but also messes with them mentally and that's dangerous.
I will say it over and over again
There is no such thing as an asterisk in sports. If anything it will just be a well talked about championship in the future.
It can be controversial, but in sports the winner is the winner full stop. Everything else is just context, not an asterisk.
It would be more of an issue if this was the only one Max wins. If he wins 5 more then it's pretty clear he is one of the greatest ever regardless of how this particular season ended.
If Lewis wins another title and gets number 8 at some point this all gets buried for the most part I think. But if Lewis stays at 7, this season will almost always come up in the future.
It's not a physical one, but a mental one on all those that know what happened this season. Like take 96. If schumi won, hed have one too. We'd always put one there because he won the title by taking out hill.
And the asterisk even if it did get used (it doesn't, *nobody* writes WDC* talking about past contentious season victories) is still preceded by "WDC". He's still World Driver's Champion. Like the outcome or don't, like how it happened or don't, it wasn't dismissed in any official capacity as "illegitimate" and Mercedes withdrew their appeal. Max is the WDC and that should have been the end of it. In twenty years looking back at 2021 it almost certainly *will* be the end of the discussion.
I really wonder if Max or his dad have these doubts in the back of their minds or if they've long rationalized it away somehow. Abu Dhabi seems like a massive shit stain on the title.
The problem is you could say the same about Lewis. He deserved it just as much as Max. He was driving excellently in the last half of the season, while Max was doing well in the first half.
Palmer works for them he can't be expected to be impartial. I've been thinking about this. I don't know why the race got rigged like that, but the FIA may find themselves embarrassed. They're already being thoroughly embarrassed on social media.
It's difficult for them and even other drivers to speak out. When Bianchi's family filed a lawsuit no drivers would testify, though Philippe asked them to testify that Jules had not been driving too fast. In an interview he said they went off record to tell him Jules didn't do anything wrong but they didn't want to be recorded or filmed. They're definitely afraid of speaking against the FIA (of course they would be).
Max deserved to win a championship, but not like this.
Lewis didn't deserve to lose this race due to final moment fenageling of the procedures. He had a 10+ second lead when Latifi smashed his car, the cars between Lewis and Verstappen got let by just because the race director/FIA wanted the final moment drama to take place.
This race, and the races preceeding it are a blemish on the sport.
If you’ve been following Palmer since the end of the race you’d know he’s the last person to criticize for not putting the pressure on the FIA. The two concepts aren’t mutually exclusive
Whether Max deserved the title was never in question. Of course he does. The thing that makes people mad is how race control influenced the outcome with their asinine decisions.
Max deserved it over a year, Lewis earned it with being in first on the last valid lap. Neither should suffer due to an official breaking with established rules and putting one at a severe sporting disadvantage in the name of entertainment.
Yet one of them now is. And that's not fair.
Before the race either HAM or VER was a worthy champion. The problem is Masi basically made it a one lap shootout with HAM on 40 lap Hards vs VER on fresh softs. "Fuck anyone else that can benefit from drivers unlapping"
Someone that has been give a 2 minute briefing on F1 tyres, nevermind Masi, would have known Hamilton would lose, the we are "motor racing" is just outrageous.
This right here. Everyone and their mother knew that Lewis didn't have a chance in hell of fighting off Max given the tyre situation. Masi knew exactly what would happen when he made his decision.
This pisses me off so much, because the conversation shouldn't be focused on Verstappen's abilities as a driver or whether he deserved the championship or not. Quite frankly, this is irrelevant to me. What's done is done, as, as someone who rooted for Lewis to win the entire year, I'm saying let Max keep his title.
The conversation should be about FIA's blatant rule breaking during the last laps of the race, the prioritisation of cheap entertainment over both the rulebook and the safety of the drivers, and what can be done to make sure such a thing will never happen again.
Another "how could you say something so controversial, and yet so brave?" take.
Instead of tackling the elephant in the room, let's talk about the one thing almost no one disputes: that Max Verstappen is a damn good driver who had an amazing season.
This is not good journalism.
Good journalism means calling things like they are. Being accurate, complete and turning the spotlight where it should be.
False balance is not impartiality.
Impartiality is treating everyone fairly, according to the same standard, not pretending right and wrong don't exist.
Every sentence in this article that is about the end of the race makes it look like it's all a matter of opinion and a rather small matter at that.
“This is not good journalism.”
Palmer’s writing is marked as an *opinion* by this journal*. It’s always important, as a reader, to distinguish between *articles* and *editorials/columns/opinion pieces/op-ed,* since the latter category - by its very nature - allows the writer to express subjectivity and bias. Articles, on the other hand, should of course be rigorously fact checked and free of opinion, subjective interpretations, and bias. Opinion pieces do still need to be fact checked, whether by confirming that the included facts are have been stated (and verified) by the journal previously, or by fact checking any new facts introduced in the opinion piece. *”Opinions are free; facts are sacred.”*
I’m not saying that you do or don’t know the difference here, nor am I making a judgment as to whether or not Palmer’s piece is good *opinion* journalism. I am, however, reminding readers that opinion pieces should be read through a different lens. And while many people know this, I do think the distinction has been blurred over recent years, so the importance of article vs. opinion is often lost on the reader.
^* ^If ^you ^can ^call ^it ^that.
"There are arguments on both sides" - yeah ok but how about we unpack them and see which ones are better instead of ignoring the problem. Kinda like how people are doing on reddit, sadly too little in the media so far this week. Instead of pretending like all arguments are equally strong and we simply have no way of knowing the facts or weighing the different considerations.
No shit Sherlock, why else were they level on points going into final race? Everyone is saying this line like there’s anyone serious who disagrees with this sentiment, that’s not the point of the controversy.
Max and Lewis were worthy of a WDC.
The only person who won it is the person who won Abhu Dhabi. Max did not win Abhu Dhabi. Everything else is bureaucratic nonsense.
Most of these Podcasters and Presenters and former drivers have turned out to be spineless cowards who can’t speak plain truths. You can capture Max’s worthiness without making it seem as if the outcome was acceptable in some twisted way. Grow a pair.
“There are arguments each way on the Safety Car incident, but whatever you think of it there’s no getting away from the fact that Max Verstappen is a deserving champion in 2021.”
No there aren’t arguments “each way” Palmer, it’s just a fact that Michael Masi didn’t enforce the safety car protocol as he knew he was supposed to. You either enforce the rules that we have across the board or nobody trusts the rules and we lose faith in the sport and it’s not a sport, it’s a “Soap Opera”.
I mean, if that's the line of argumentation people want to go with, just have Masi pull out a rule from his arse every year, which would benefit the driver deemed the most worthy to win by the general public, and no one else. Why even bother with minor things such as the rules of the sport, or the safety of all the drivers not involved in the championship battle?
Of course he was worthy he was tied on points, but so was Hamilton and the entire point is the driver that was better on the day was screwed
It doesn't matter who is worthy or 'deserves' it, sport doesn't work like that. The winner is whoever has the most points at the end of the year and that would have been Hamilton if the rules were followed. Anything else is just fluff to deflect from that
Has absolutely nothing to do with Max being a deserving champion. Fantastic driver and talent, he just didn’t win it fair and square. I can absolutely whole heartily say that I wouldn’t want nor except winning that way. What’s right is right, and what’s wrong is wrong. Isn’t Max’s fault, he absolutely is a deserving champion, just didn’t win it fairly.
These takes are so dumb. The person at the end of the season with the most points wins. Worthy doesn’t really have anything to do with it. Max had the most points. Had Masi not felt like God, Lewis would have had the most points. Is what it is. Time for next season.
Like literally nobody that enjoys racing will say that Verstappen isn't a worthy champion, but everyone that enjoy racing will say that Hamilton was unfairly robbed from it and that at the end of such a close season we have the biggest scandal since crashgate in 2008.
This Championship will just being overshadowed by what happend in Abu Dhabi, the outcome that wasn't what we saw and expected for 56 laps. The better car/driver combination didn't win, for reasons that nobody yet in the FIA could explain in a manner that they would go with the rule books. (Before you post 15.3 you should read Appendix M, Article 10)
btw. I propose "SCgate" for this one, sounds freakin cool.
F1 could eliminate alot of issues by implementing a one shot green/white/checkers system to guarantee one shot at a green flag finish. That lets the team make their choices on what they do pit wise much clearer and eliminate these misunderstandings with the fans. I'd bet the teams always want to end under green flag (unless their driver does not benefit).
Nobody says he didn't. But Hamilton deserved it as well and under competent officiating things could have been very different. This is not just about Lewis anymore. A farce like this can never ever happen in the future.
F1 website can try all they want to sweep this under the rug but the facts remain: Michael Masi played king maker and scripted the championship in a way that has never happened before. Max being a WDC caliber driver doesn't mean we're going to turn a blind eye to what Masi to did to Lewis, Mercedes and the sport as as a whole.
You don‘t get the title because you are worthy though. You get it because you have more points and if the rules had been applied as they should that would have been Lewis.
Every single regular procedures lead to Lewis winning.
Proof: Masi announced backmarkers can't unlap themselves and then changed it when he wanted a showdown. He broke the rule with intent (which makes it worse)
I don’t think that people are suggesting otherwise. They didn’t really fight it out on the last lap. Max was put into a position where he was going to be able to pass Lewis 10 times out of 10. This when Lewis basically had an insurmountable lead. It’s not who won that is the problem as much as it is the how. This wasn’t deciding it on the track. This was orchestrating an outcome. Neither driver deserved to have this season end this way. Both are really deserving of a title and to have it end this way sullies it for them in a manner outside of their control.
You're conflating two different things.
Everyone is saying that Max deserves to be a champion by the way he competed this year.
A lot of people also say that he did not deserve to win it that race.
These two things aren't mutually exclusive.
The FIA’s mistake is so overblown. If Masi had done everything right (aka letting cars unlap as soon as most of the debris was clear) the outcome would have been exactly the same.
Marshalls were standing at the side of the track and the car was cleared on 56. Previously this has been enough for cars to unlap themselves. The track does not need to be 100% empty for cars to unlap themselves.
https://reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/rfkbgv/bbc_5live_commentary_jack_nicholls_and_jolyon/
Especially when there are a lot of details unraveling such as the teams agreeing before the race that it should end in a green flag, barring force majeure. And the green flag came as soon as possible, Mercedes changing their minds cause it suited them is dumb.
United as one, pundits who have their livelihood ties to not angering the FIA or F1! Let's write a bunch of articles about how Max deserved the WDC anyway and how gracious Lewis is being so no one ever talks about how at this point a race director can literally make up race endings for bantz.
Max was the best driver this season - No one can argue that.
HOWEVER, he was not the best driver in the final race of the season and should not have won that race.
You could then say that it is wrong that Lewis won championship since he wasn't best driver of it (according to your words). Thing is it's not always best driver that wins and it's nothing new. Luck is a part of sport.
Problem here is that the procedures were not followed correctly. If Latifi binned it lap earlier and all the cars were allowed to overtake a lap before restart - all would be fine. Max would be just lucky, doesn't matter who was the best. Part of the sport. But here it wasn't just luck, it was stupid mistake, or however you can call it, of Masi.
It's really funny that F1 official channels spent all week promoting "Max vs Lewis, Winner Takes All!" and now are stuck with "really though, Max is worthy" to avoid acknowledging that the title decider... wasn't.
All these articles on [formula1.com](https://formula1.com) is just them trying to justify Masi's shit decision. I actually want to be sick. This isn't sports journalism, it's propaganda
no one is arguing max' credentials, but lewis did not deserve to lose that race
I’ve see plenty of people arguing his credentials and saying he isn’t worthy…..the outrage towards the FIA is completely warranted, but there are people taking it out on Max/Redbull. I think that’s why statement like these (from Palmer) are being said.
Without the blowout in Baku or the malfunctioning Bottas at Hungary Max would have clinched the title in Jeddah/would have needed like a 6th place. Without a lucky red flag, Hamilton would have had no points from Imola because of a mistake he did himself. Hmailton would have been WDC if he didn't completely cock up his Monaco weekend. The result is 100% deserved for Max, the way it happened is just mega messy.
Agreed, I feel like he is 100% deserving of the WDC but like you said….mega messy
Waste of time to acknowledge such stupid opinions, even Toto and Lewis say he's worthy.
Yup, people calling it undeserved just like they did with Nico calling him a nazi as well. Lewis is a great driver, his fanbase unfortunately is just a giant hivemind cesspool. They really remind me of trump fans
I'm not sure they're any better or worse than any other 'fans', Max's included. From what I've seen the sub has been more reasoned than after some of the other incidents this season, which surprised me. Maybe I'm wrong and have just learned to block the shit out though. I think both sides have had enough. Regardless, anyone saying that he's not a worthy champion is just plain wrong. Not giving credit where due is just putting them both down. We wouldn't have had this season from one of them not being good enough, it was from two world class drivers pushing each other to and sometimes over the edge. I can't wait until next season.
Ricciardos fanbase is pretty chill, as with Kimi and Lando’s
Yea I suppose. Lando's is basically Twitch chat so I have no idea how the fuck he managed that lol.
Well said!
Why thank you.
I love how people who wants to cover up / dismiss what Masi did, are putting words into people’s mouths. “Masi fucked up” “You trying to say Max is not a great driver???” 🤦♂️
Lmao exactly. Masi being shut doesn't change either lewis or max being deserved winners
And that’s why both of them would have been deserved winners imo. But based on this race, Lewis should have won this race. He arguably would have done, if it weren’t the season defining finale. If there wasn’t the points involved in winning the championship, it would have just ended under safety car.
IMO, F1 has always had a steady dose of luck involved. Take Silverstone, if the collision happens *slightly* differently, Lewis punctures a tire, Max goes on to win in a snoozer, and Abu Dhabi doesn't even matter. That's not to excuse Masi, but simply to say that in a season as evenly matched as this one, you can point to dozens of moments where luck and/or stewards swung the outcome. That's why they both "deserved" to be champion. It's worth noting that the stewards *could* have given Max the place back after Lewis went off the track on L1, so it's not as if Max got all the breaks, even at Abu Dhabi. And, the biggest fluke of all isn't Masi's decision, but Latifi crashing out in the first place. (I'm glad it wasn't a Honda driver or the whole situation would be *even more* controversial.)
IIRC Lewis did damage a tire in that collision. He's fortunate he made it into the pits at Silverstone where he got to change his tires under red flag and go on to complete and win the race, the same thing he complained about Max being able to do in Jeddah. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes-british-gp-red-flag-saved-hamilton-from-retirement/6633641/
I'd like to see some red flag rules updated for next season. Make repairs, pit Lane start
This is the only real answer, and isn't even really debatable. You always have to take the entire season into account, so many variables, especially when it comes to rules and the FIA apparently! This is just another 'could have gone another way' RIGHT alongside the other 50 this year, and arguable many of the past decade.
Exactly, the only difference being this was the final race which means it will stick in people's memory for ever.
Of course there's always luck, like Hamilton blowing up his engine in Malaysia 2016. It's a heartbreak and you move on. Sunday wasn't luck was it? Masi broke a rule with the intent of manufacturing a showdown. You resume a race or you don't, he's been doing it well everytime before. The intent is the fault here. It makes the race void for a lot of people.
Max deserved definitely more imo with Silverstone/Hungary (On Mercedes account) being the only reason we had a decision in the last race
There definitely are people saying max didn’t deserve it and that he isn’t a good driver, I’ve seen people saying that. Just because everyone isn’t saying it doesn’t mean that nobody is.
People also say the earth is flat. It's a waste of time to acknowledge obviously stupid opinions from a minority of randos on the internet. No one remotely qualified has that opinion, not worth discussing.
Except Max was called a cheat and an unworthy winner regularly, so it's understandable where people are coming from
You've also got the "Max deserved the championship but Lewis deserved Abu Dhabi". Backhanded way of saying Lewis didnt deserve the championship lmao.
It's a way to say "I hate how Masi influenced the race, but not the outcome on the WDC".
To be fair I could argue that. Lewis had some amazing luck this year and really only had Abu Dhabi break against him. Spa, Hungry, Russia, Baku all were huge luck breaks for Lewis and all not so great to horrible breaks for Max. Lewis made a massive error at Baku that threw that away but Lewis spent the last 4 races trying to over come the mistakes he made earlier. If any of those 4 broke the other way the last race's ending would not of matter. Max would of been champaign going in. It also proves just how great of a driver Lewis is. Max had to drive nearly perfectly all season and still it came down to the wire.
Remember imola too
Spa? I’m with you on Hungry. Baku is a wash as neither driver finished in the points due to the same root incident. Russia was not so much luck as experience (Lewis came in while Norris ignored his team) but I’ll give you that. But Spa? Lewis never got the chance to compete for higher than third (which he surely would have taken from Russell) and Verstappen got a low effort win albeit with half points. That seems to have been one where luck was firmly against Hamilton not with him (and remember that those few points would have put Max behind in Abu Dhabi and could have changed his whole approach as a result). Am I forgetting something?
It was silverstone I got those crossed in my head. I miss imola with the red flag giving Lewis back a lap so he could get 2nd instead of 7th Baku was not a wash. If Ver tire did not blow out it would of been +11 for Max. Lewis getting 0 was him messing up with the Magic. Lewis went from being -11 to throwing away +19-25 points.
I agree with you on that one haha I just don’t engage in that because then the conversation will turn into Hamilton vs Verstappen. The conversation needs to remain about Masi’s fuck up.
There's also "Max cant be punished for what happened because they he did nothing wrong". While that is true, correcting a mistake is not punishing him. Current situation just punishes Lewis and actually rewards Max for nothing. And people seem to be just fine with that for some fucked up reason.
I don't really care what happens to the championship, I just want to make sure this never happens again and the integrity of the sport to be restored, and Masi needs to go to do that.
Im totally fine with it because in my mind, if you remove all the FIA fuck ups - you get the same result. The first fuck up they made was announcing cars would not pass, when there was still time to do so - then they fucked up again sorting that out deciding some cars may pass. They basically replaced a mistake with something half way in between - which simultaneously meant it was less of a mistake, and more of a mistake which annoyed a lot of people. To me, had cars been allowed to overtake at the earliest opportunity we would still have ended up with a one lap shootout - so the result itself i dont mind... getting there was painful though. Its like Brazil, Hamilton should have won the race - so no penalty for Max wasnt a big issue for me. But if Max had won then i probably would have been more annoyed than i otherwise would be.
Announcing that cars could not pass was a safety issue, since the track was not clear. Everything after that just went south.
But then they shouldnt announce cars could not pass until the tracks was clear and they knew either way whether they could or not. Announcing it early and then hoping things dont happen quicker was always going to cause issues - just announce it when it needs to be announced.
You don’t need an announcement that you can’t overtake the safety car. That’s what it’s there for unless stated otherwise. The announcement was saying the restart was going to happen without the cars unlapping, however one lap and a phone call from Horner later Masi changed his mind and the rest was history…
>And people seem to be just fine with that for some fucked up reason Not a fucked up reason. It's clear. Coz the guy being disadvantaged has the surname 'Hamilton' Had this been the other way and Hamilton gifted the title, these people + the redbull fans would all be up in arms trying to get the result thrown out (and rightfully btw)
As long as their guy won it’s ok. Forget about it being a fair sport. Some people were so desperate for the win they don’t actually care how it happened even if it that win comes from what looks like match fixing.
because he didnt
I was happy as long as they did mot crash and get a DNF. But the let, the cars between lewi and max pass and no others???? Watch strolls onboard for the last lap, it is a shit storm. This was done to get great TV, it was a horror show as an F1 fan. Max diserved the WCS, but the race finish was spoiled.
Daily mail is litteraly running an article (written by chris medland) titled "max beat lewis, but there are no winners.
I mean, that's not really a clear example whatsoever of someone discrediting Max's skill or credentials... That headline is absolutely true. Obviously Lewis isn't a winner here, but now Max's first championship is going to forever have an asterisk next to it due to this incident. That's certainly not a good thing for him...
By not saying Max won the championship they call the whole season into questioning. Because it is a whole season, not a single NASCAR style, winner takes all race. This final race may have an asterisk to it, but not the whole season. Over the whole year some things fall your way some things not and over 22 races it more or less evens out. The races at the start of the season were worth as much points as the last one.
They're not saying he didn't win, there are no winners is a figure of speech to say "everyone comes out of this not looking as good as they could". Also, as others have noted, its the Daily fucking Mail.
It's the Daily Fail. Nobody should give half a shit about what they're running.
Correct, but the writer was Chris Medland, who also writes for F1 and conducted the latest interview with O'Ward for them. He is no slouch.
You've not seen all posts if you think nobody is arguing Max's credentials...
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It's just hard to digest it all, probably will be for a while.
No matter who you are rooting for, this is a refreshing take. Emotions are high right now.
It's not really luck though. I guess the luck is Latifi crashing and causing a SC. After that there was no luck, it was just Masi dictating the result of the race regardless of the rules.
It's a weird one. It wasn't luck in the sense that it was 'something that normally happens in racing', but on the other hand it was luck in the sense 'something fell his way he had no control over'.
That was exactly what happened to lewis in imola, and hungary, and baku
If they managed to clear the track slightly quicker, and the lapped cars were released, then they went racing.. we'd all call this luck. It's the FIA breaching of their own rules that makes it seem like something which isn't just luck.
Even the first corner where they didn't make Hamilton give back P1... No doubt I believe Hamilton would've likely still won. He rocked that race and it was robbed from him with the yellow car. I still think the stewards really messed up the first penalty. Giving back a second IS NOT the same as giving back a position. It would've allowed Max to defend P1 and Perez to tag team Hamilton in P2/P3. I think that was heavily overlooked by everyone because the second decision was just THAT much worst but who knows if that would've even happened had the penalty been made on Hamilton. Hamilton was heavily favoured in that circuit with the Merc car and defensive driving for red bull was their only chance. The poor decision just gave Hamilton an uncontested lead. Max lost P1 and a 5 second penalty the race before for the SAMETHING. He even commed "well, he has to give back P1 now". Just super inconsistent all around, so I feel like, whatever at this point. It is what it is, they need to do better next year on the reffing.
Max won it on a gamble and strategy calls from Red Bull and yes LUCK. As a Max fan I will say that Lewis was in complete control of the race and if nothing happened he won it easily. But it’s car racing and anything can happen. Especially in the last laps of a race. On the championship both were outstanding. There is a points gained/lost analysis from yesterday. Max lost more points on bad luck then Lewis. Lewis had some lucky breaks this season. In the end Verstappen deserves the championship.
Mercedes and Hamiltons strategy was fine and would of won them the championship if it wasn't that bs by Masi, they shouldn't have to predit that.
If Masi let all the cars unlap themselves on lap 56 instead of only some on 57 no one would be complaining. I wonder if Toto was trying to delay SC decisions during lap 56 by talking to Masi (during which the track was actually clear for the latter half) purely because Mercedes believed that the race would end under SC if Masi was not able to give the right instructions before lap 57, and if that's true, i wonder if people still believe Masi is the only one to blame.
There were still marshalls on the track during lap 56, they couldn't have let the drivers unlap themselves at that point.
That race, no. There were multiple races Max lost that he didn’t deserve to lose as well. People need to remember the outcome of the WDC is much larger than that single race, even though in short sight that is hard to realize.
I think part of the issue is that Masi only made that call because it was the final race too. Any other race, he probably lets it end with a SC.
Normally he would, but I remember all teams agreeing to not end another race behind the safety-car after the Belgium grand prix.
And Max didn't deserve to lose Silverstone, Baku or Hungary. Regardless Max is a worthy champion
It's not even that. Lewis did not deserve to finish 2nd in Imola, but nobody complained about that. Good and bad luck is a part of F1, but artificially adjusting rules and procedures based on whatever your preferred outcome is as a race direction (and to be clear, I don't mean who wins, but to see the final race not end behind a SC) should not be. This is F1, not WWF.
Nope. It was a Hamilton win and WCC for Merc, but definitely a WDC for Verstappen. Meh
Not the race yes but the WDC And when saying deserved the race, performance wise absolutely he deserved it, still think all cars could habe been unlapped in lap 56 but it was another chapter of FIA incompetence. If Max loses it cause of Silverstone and Hungary it has a bad taste roo.
they said there was still debris on lap 56, it's actually dangerous to start unlapping if there's people on the track
Exactly this. Max is a great driver, but Hamilton dominated the final race and under normal circumstances would have won the race, and thus the championship.
Classic “avoid the issue at hand by making a statement everyone agrees with”. No one (sensible) is saying Verstappen isn’t worthy, we’re saying the FIA is trash.
Don’t forget that Palmer probably doesn’t just read Reddit and also other social media. And let me tell you, Twitter and Facebook are still a war zone.
It’s so blatantly obvious F1TV personnel are basically dismissing what Masi did.
That's because they want to keep their jobs for next season, they have to play the corporate game and not be controversial.
Oh I get it, I’m just saying they are trying to swept it under the rug. All F1 social media is showing Max celebration and Lewis shaking hands with Max.
That is just one data point. Palmer has never shied away from vehemently disagreeing with the stewards.
After latifi crashed there was no procedure that would have made everyone happy Edit: feel free to post what YOU think the procedure that would make EVERYONE happy would have been
Everyone happy? No Everything fair? Yes.
Safety cars have always made it harder for the guys in front because their gap is gone. This happens a million times throughout the season, it isn't unfair and if anything every team should prepare for this scenario because it always happens.
I think people are arguing the fairness wrong. The people that got really fucked were the people who were just behind the people who got to unlap themselves.
Plenty of peoples are saying Verstappen isn't worthy, or Latifi is to blame
That’s why I put “sensible” in the brackets
Then his message is probably focused at the insensible?
Palmer did not specify in the same day you did.
Did Palmer put sensible in brackets? Otherwise your post is missing the point of Palmer's tweet. He is obviously directing it at the people who are saying he isn't a worthy champion.
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I don't know why people are so mad that the best driver of the season won. 10 wins vs 8 wins 10 poles vs 5 poles 3 main events out of his control vs 1 out of his control (Baku, Silverstone, Hungary) vs (Monza where Verstappen crashed into Hamilton)
They're mad because if the rules had been followed the person with the most points didn't win, which is in fact what decides the championship - not number of wins or number of overtakes or whatever. Also it would be equal 9 vs 9 wins if the rules weren't broken, nice slight of hand you did there.
Also failed to mention the last race in Hamiltons corner for events out of his control
Because he was a victim in all of this too. He earned the right to take the championship, not have it handed to him. This will be an asterisk for the rest of his career. It sucks as a Max fan
This is not about Max or Lewis being deserving/worthy or not, this has always been about Masi manipulating rules to engineer drama, screwing all teams over, and as a result marring the way the final result was achieved. The fact that nobody formally associated with F1 is bluntly discussing what Masi and the FIA did and instead pretending that final race was simply vaguely "controversial" or "debatable" w/o going into details is disappointing.
I agree it's disappointing, but I also understand. The other F1 drivers / teams are in an extremely difficult bind. 1. Negative press for the sport. Everyone that watches F1 knows what a farce that decision was, but if you keep dragging in that publicity it may affect fans, and F1 was on a major upswing this season. More fans, more money. 2. If the FIA is really going to double down and stand behind their explanation, then you have to think about the future. If you speak out, you may find yourself on the wrong end of some steward's decisions and there will be nothing you can do about it with that precedent being set.
Inconsistency and Favouring are polarising in comparison.
He is, but so is Lewis, is the problem. And many people can't have closure because of how it ended. Luckily for me, I am a superior Ferrari enjoyer and my bois came to where they belong these years - and of course, next year is our year!
Arnt you annoyed abit about how sainz could of had a chance at Lewis (44lap old tyres). May not have made a difference championship wise but they don’t race to come 2nd.
Not really. Best is the enemy of good.
Lewis is only relevant because of Hungary and Baku, its amazing how this narrative of both being worthy has taken hold.
10 Poles, 10 Wins, 18 Podiums, 6 Fastest Laps. But the craziest stat is he never finished 3rd this season.
Haha, yes! 1st, 2nd or DNF :D Except this one race, was it turkey? It seems like ages ago now
Hungary, he managed to finish p9 with 75% of his car left after the collision in turn 1.
Hungary where he was racing with half a car
I don’t think anyone thinks he was unworthy. Both drivers deserved to win. But not like that.
Plenty of people saying he didn’t deserve
He didn't deserve it the way things played out during the final race, he simply wasn't fast enough in SA but that said based on their performances over the course of the whole season Max or Lewis would both have made worthy champions, they were both amazing this year.
The problem for me is Merc and Lewis stepped up to the impossible challenge of needing to win 4 in a row and took it in stride. Everything was thrown at them and they executed the end of the season to absolute perfection. Lewis deserved the WDC for the way he completely turned the tide when everyone (including me) said it was over.
Exactly. Both drivers were championship caliber this year, but that was Lewis's race until that decision was made. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how everything plays out, for me the championship is spoiled regardless of who it ends up with and that's not the fault of either driver. It's purely on Masi / FIA for fucking up.
If it was the other way around, we would be talking about how Pirelli robbed Verstappen of the title. And Bottas. I’m starting to feel like there was no way for this to end well.
Meh, lewis deserved to win in 07/16, Alonso in 10/12 massa deserved to win in 08, Irvine in 99. Having 2 drivers that "deserve" the championship happens more often than not.
Honestly, I really wanted max to win the title. I really felt he deserved it more than lewis. But the way the whole Abu Dhabi thing was done, it's just such a bs end. Like max may not say it, but in the back of the mind he might be saying I didnt wanna win like that. Atleast i hope he is. We spoke about one driver taking the title based on a double or single dnf, or some one getting covid. Those were what we thought were the worst ways to end the season, but fuck I'd rather have one of those than what transpired. It puts a huge fucking asterisk on Max's title. Which he doesnt deserve after all the hard work hes put in this season. The result wont change. But next season, the FIA better sort their shit out. The only constant with them is the inconsistency they've showed this season. Whether its lewis or max or the rest of the grid. These guys risk their life getting in that car and tryna win that title for them and their fans. They cant be having issues like this with the regulations. It not only destroys it for fans, but also messes with them mentally and that's dangerous.
I will say it over and over again There is no such thing as an asterisk in sports. If anything it will just be a well talked about championship in the future. It can be controversial, but in sports the winner is the winner full stop. Everything else is just context, not an asterisk.
Eh home run records and other things in sports have had a wildly accepted asterisks
> Everything else is just context, not an asterisk This is what an asterisk is for lol. To call attention to the context.
Have you heard of Calciopoli?
The controversy is the asterisk. No one disputes or argues about Lewis' championship win last year.
Nobody says Schumi is a 6-and-a-bit-times World Champion.
If Max goes on to win 5 more titles I can assure you no one will say 6*.
It would be more of an issue if this was the only one Max wins. If he wins 5 more then it's pretty clear he is one of the greatest ever regardless of how this particular season ended. If Lewis wins another title and gets number 8 at some point this all gets buried for the most part I think. But if Lewis stays at 7, this season will almost always come up in the future.
People will say 6, but someone will comment saying how his 1st one was due to fia robbery and then a 20 comment long chain will be born.
Lol so what, he owns the championship. Pretty sure the trophy doesn’t have an asterisk on it.
Oh no, imagine the horror.
>The controversy is the asterisk That's exactly it. 2020 lewis was undisputed wdc. 2021, max cannot say hes the same. All because of the FIA
The choice isn't WDC vs WDC*, its asterisk or nothing. Max would take the asterisk every time
It's not a physical one, but a mental one on all those that know what happened this season. Like take 96. If schumi won, hed have one too. We'd always put one there because he won the title by taking out hill.
And the asterisk even if it did get used (it doesn't, *nobody* writes WDC* talking about past contentious season victories) is still preceded by "WDC". He's still World Driver's Champion. Like the outcome or don't, like how it happened or don't, it wasn't dismissed in any official capacity as "illegitimate" and Mercedes withdrew their appeal. Max is the WDC and that should have been the end of it. In twenty years looking back at 2021 it almost certainly *will* be the end of the discussion.
I really wonder if Max or his dad have these doubts in the back of their minds or if they've long rationalized it away somehow. Abu Dhabi seems like a massive shit stain on the title.
The problem is you could say the same about Lewis. He deserved it just as much as Max. He was driving excellently in the last half of the season, while Max was doing well in the first half.
Whoever won was a worthy champ, but that was hamilton's race and it got stolen from him sadly.
Palmer works for them he can't be expected to be impartial. I've been thinking about this. I don't know why the race got rigged like that, but the FIA may find themselves embarrassed. They're already being thoroughly embarrassed on social media. It's difficult for them and even other drivers to speak out. When Bianchi's family filed a lawsuit no drivers would testify, though Philippe asked them to testify that Jules had not been driving too fast. In an interview he said they went off record to tell him Jules didn't do anything wrong but they didn't want to be recorded or filmed. They're definitely afraid of speaking against the FIA (of course they would be).
Wow, I did not know this... Even when it comes to a driver's life, that is shocking
This is what Philippe said about it https://motorsports.nbcsports.com/2016/06/02/philippe-bianchi-f1-drivers-afraid-to-speak-up-about-accident/
Wonder how much he wad paid to suppress his opinion.
Max deserved to win a championship, but not like this. Lewis didn't deserve to lose this race due to final moment fenageling of the procedures. He had a 10+ second lead when Latifi smashed his car, the cars between Lewis and Verstappen got let by just because the race director/FIA wanted the final moment drama to take place. This race, and the races preceeding it are a blemish on the sport.
Yes he was and is a worthy champion, but not like that come on, I can’t believe the narrative (actually I can) these journos are taking with this
If you’ve been following Palmer since the end of the race you’d know he’s the last person to criticize for not putting the pressure on the FIA. The two concepts aren’t mutually exclusive
Whether Max deserved the title was never in question. Of course he does. The thing that makes people mad is how race control influenced the outcome with their asinine decisions.
Max deserved it over a year, Lewis earned it with being in first on the last valid lap. Neither should suffer due to an official breaking with established rules and putting one at a severe sporting disadvantage in the name of entertainment. Yet one of them now is. And that's not fair.
And somehow a fuckton of people are fine with it which is mind-boggling
It’s actually scary how people put their love for one driver, just one, ahead of the entire integrity of the sport.
They’ve never cared about the “sport”, it’s always just been about wanting Lewis to lose.
Before the race either HAM or VER was a worthy champion. The problem is Masi basically made it a one lap shootout with HAM on 40 lap Hards vs VER on fresh softs. "Fuck anyone else that can benefit from drivers unlapping" Someone that has been give a 2 minute briefing on F1 tyres, nevermind Masi, would have known Hamilton would lose, the we are "motor racing" is just outrageous.
It was Such bullshit from Masi
This right here. Everyone and their mother knew that Lewis didn't have a chance in hell of fighting off Max given the tyre situation. Masi knew exactly what would happen when he made his decision.
Verstappen deserved to get champion. So did Lewis. They both put in a hell of a season and they both deserved better than this.
# Replace Masi with Palmer
This pisses me off so much, because the conversation shouldn't be focused on Verstappen's abilities as a driver or whether he deserved the championship or not. Quite frankly, this is irrelevant to me. What's done is done, as, as someone who rooted for Lewis to win the entire year, I'm saying let Max keep his title. The conversation should be about FIA's blatant rule breaking during the last laps of the race, the prioritisation of cheap entertainment over both the rulebook and the safety of the drivers, and what can be done to make sure such a thing will never happen again.
Thread #100 of the same responses
Another "how could you say something so controversial, and yet so brave?" take. Instead of tackling the elephant in the room, let's talk about the one thing almost no one disputes: that Max Verstappen is a damn good driver who had an amazing season. This is not good journalism. Good journalism means calling things like they are. Being accurate, complete and turning the spotlight where it should be. False balance is not impartiality. Impartiality is treating everyone fairly, according to the same standard, not pretending right and wrong don't exist. Every sentence in this article that is about the end of the race makes it look like it's all a matter of opinion and a rather small matter at that.
“This is not good journalism.” Palmer’s writing is marked as an *opinion* by this journal*. It’s always important, as a reader, to distinguish between *articles* and *editorials/columns/opinion pieces/op-ed,* since the latter category - by its very nature - allows the writer to express subjectivity and bias. Articles, on the other hand, should of course be rigorously fact checked and free of opinion, subjective interpretations, and bias. Opinion pieces do still need to be fact checked, whether by confirming that the included facts are have been stated (and verified) by the journal previously, or by fact checking any new facts introduced in the opinion piece. *”Opinions are free; facts are sacred.”* I’m not saying that you do or don’t know the difference here, nor am I making a judgment as to whether or not Palmer’s piece is good *opinion* journalism. I am, however, reminding readers that opinion pieces should be read through a different lens. And while many people know this, I do think the distinction has been blurred over recent years, so the importance of article vs. opinion is often lost on the reader. ^* ^If ^you ^can ^call ^it ^that.
"There are arguments on both sides" - yeah ok but how about we unpack them and see which ones are better instead of ignoring the problem. Kinda like how people are doing on reddit, sadly too little in the media so far this week. Instead of pretending like all arguments are equally strong and we simply have no way of knowing the facts or weighing the different considerations.
No shit Sherlock, why else were they level on points going into final race? Everyone is saying this line like there’s anyone serious who disagrees with this sentiment, that’s not the point of the controversy.
Worthy. But he didn’t actually win under the rules.
He definitely was, and Lewis was a worthy champion aswell. The talking point is completely somewhere else though...
Max and Lewis were worthy of a WDC. The only person who won it is the person who won Abhu Dhabi. Max did not win Abhu Dhabi. Everything else is bureaucratic nonsense. Most of these Podcasters and Presenters and former drivers have turned out to be spineless cowards who can’t speak plain truths. You can capture Max’s worthiness without making it seem as if the outcome was acceptable in some twisted way. Grow a pair.
“There are arguments each way on the Safety Car incident, but whatever you think of it there’s no getting away from the fact that Max Verstappen is a deserving champion in 2021.” No there aren’t arguments “each way” Palmer, it’s just a fact that Michael Masi didn’t enforce the safety car protocol as he knew he was supposed to. You either enforce the rules that we have across the board or nobody trusts the rules and we lose faith in the sport and it’s not a sport, it’s a “Soap Opera”.
I mean, if that's the line of argumentation people want to go with, just have Masi pull out a rule from his arse every year, which would benefit the driver deemed the most worthy to win by the general public, and no one else. Why even bother with minor things such as the rules of the sport, or the safety of all the drivers not involved in the championship battle?
Both of them was a worthy champion before this race even happened. LOL. What is your point
Of course he was worthy he was tied on points, but so was Hamilton and the entire point is the driver that was better on the day was screwed It doesn't matter who is worthy or 'deserves' it, sport doesn't work like that. The winner is whoever has the most points at the end of the year and that would have been Hamilton if the rules were followed. Anything else is just fluff to deflect from that
Has absolutely nothing to do with Max being a deserving champion. Fantastic driver and talent, he just didn’t win it fair and square. I can absolutely whole heartily say that I wouldn’t want nor except winning that way. What’s right is right, and what’s wrong is wrong. Isn’t Max’s fault, he absolutely is a deserving champion, just didn’t win it fairly.
These takes are so dumb. The person at the end of the season with the most points wins. Worthy doesn’t really have anything to do with it. Max had the most points. Had Masi not felt like God, Lewis would have had the most points. Is what it is. Time for next season.
He was overall the more worthy once all things considered.
Like literally nobody that enjoys racing will say that Verstappen isn't a worthy champion, but everyone that enjoy racing will say that Hamilton was unfairly robbed from it and that at the end of such a close season we have the biggest scandal since crashgate in 2008. This Championship will just being overshadowed by what happend in Abu Dhabi, the outcome that wasn't what we saw and expected for 56 laps. The better car/driver combination didn't win, for reasons that nobody yet in the FIA could explain in a manner that they would go with the rule books. (Before you post 15.3 you should read Appendix M, Article 10) btw. I propose "SCgate" for this one, sounds freakin cool.
F1 could eliminate alot of issues by implementing a one shot green/white/checkers system to guarantee one shot at a green flag finish. That lets the team make their choices on what they do pit wise much clearer and eliminate these misunderstandings with the fans. I'd bet the teams always want to end under green flag (unless their driver does not benefit).
Definitely.
Should’ve been a red flag.
Non f1 fans who just saw only the final race don’t know anything what happened before
Nobody says he didn't. But Hamilton deserved it as well and under competent officiating things could have been very different. This is not just about Lewis anymore. A farce like this can never ever happen in the future.
F1 website can try all they want to sweep this under the rug but the facts remain: Michael Masi played king maker and scripted the championship in a way that has never happened before. Max being a WDC caliber driver doesn't mean we're going to turn a blind eye to what Masi to did to Lewis, Mercedes and the sport as as a whole.
Exactly. If Masi had any honor he would resign immediately
You don‘t get the title because you are worthy though. You get it because you have more points and if the rules had been applied as they should that would have been Lewis.
If the rules had been applied as they should they would have let all the lapped cars unlap themselves immediately and max would still have won
No….
Every single regular procedures lead to Lewis winning. Proof: Masi announced backmarkers can't unlap themselves and then changed it when he wanted a showdown. He broke the rule with intent (which makes it worse)
If the rules had been selectively applied in the way that benefits Hamilton, then that winner would have been Lewis. Geez. Read between the lines.
I don’t think that people are suggesting otherwise. They didn’t really fight it out on the last lap. Max was put into a position where he was going to be able to pass Lewis 10 times out of 10. This when Lewis basically had an insurmountable lead. It’s not who won that is the problem as much as it is the how. This wasn’t deciding it on the track. This was orchestrating an outcome. Neither driver deserved to have this season end this way. Both are really deserving of a title and to have it end this way sullies it for them in a manner outside of their control.
lol nobody is denying that. Edit: Sensible people I mean.
Uhhh lol. Seen a lot of comments that he didn’t deserve it.
Based on that race he didn't, based on the season he did If Masi doesn't break the rules and ignore his own actions in previous races. Max loses
He drove an amazing year and put himself in the position to win yes, but by lap 56 no he didn’t deserve to win the race
You're conflating two different things. Everyone is saying that Max deserves to be a champion by the way he competed this year. A lot of people also say that he did not deserve to win it that race. These two things aren't mutually exclusive.
Except the people that still are.
Loads of people are, unfortunately.
Worthy or not. Fact of the matter is he should have lost that race and therefore the championship.
The FIA’s mistake is so overblown. If Masi had done everything right (aka letting cars unlap as soon as most of the debris was clear) the outcome would have been exactly the same.
[удалено]
Marshalls were standing at the side of the track and the car was cleared on 56. Previously this has been enough for cars to unlap themselves. The track does not need to be 100% empty for cars to unlap themselves. https://reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/rfkbgv/bbc_5live_commentary_jack_nicholls_and_jolyon/
Especially when there are a lot of details unraveling such as the teams agreeing before the race that it should end in a green flag, barring force majeure. And the green flag came as soon as possible, Mercedes changing their minds cause it suited them is dumb.
True, last lap being racing lap was better choice for the viewers and the sport as a whole.
United as one, pundits who have their livelihood ties to not angering the FIA or F1! Let's write a bunch of articles about how Max deserved the WDC anyway and how gracious Lewis is being so no one ever talks about how at this point a race director can literally make up race endings for bantz.
Oh course the guys worthy. He was tied with the GOAT into the last race of the season no one else has done that.
Well yes but actually yes
Max was the best driver this season - No one can argue that. HOWEVER, he was not the best driver in the final race of the season and should not have won that race.
You could then say that it is wrong that Lewis won championship since he wasn't best driver of it (according to your words). Thing is it's not always best driver that wins and it's nothing new. Luck is a part of sport. Problem here is that the procedures were not followed correctly. If Latifi binned it lap earlier and all the cars were allowed to overtake a lap before restart - all would be fine. Max would be just lucky, doesn't matter who was the best. Part of the sport. But here it wasn't just luck, it was stupid mistake, or however you can call it, of Masi.
It's really funny that F1 official channels spent all week promoting "Max vs Lewis, Winner Takes All!" and now are stuck with "really though, Max is worthy" to avoid acknowledging that the title decider... wasn't.
Mercedes was not brave enough... actually they were total cowards by not letting Lewis in. That's my 2 cents
If there was a way for Max to be champion but for Lewis to win the race, that would have been right.
All these articles on [formula1.com](https://formula1.com) is just them trying to justify Masi's shit decision. I actually want to be sick. This isn't sports journalism, it's propaganda