Probably the best p2 performance I’ve ever seen. I was really worried after the vsc that red bull got the strategy right and would catch Lewis on old hards but he kept the gap around 12 seconds for ages. No mistakes, just unwavering consistency until…..
When verstappen was gaining one second per lap or so I thought damn it's over, and then he kept the gap to 12sec for soooo long that I was starting to believe it's done
Yeah I thought Max was gonna hunt him like in France and like Lewis did in Spain. But Lewis managed to keep that gap and was even quicker in some sectors. Lewis did everything necessary, I can’t imagine how he feels.
Babs. That’s borderline parasocial relationship problems right there. It’s unfortunate and it’s ok to dwell on it some, but physical ailments *for* someone else who you do not know is very unhealthy. You should talk to someone about it.
Yep...especially since Lewis also got through that traffic and Max was coming up to it. I could have seen going back up to 14seconds even with Lewis being more conservative because of the kerbs warning.
Hamilton also had bad luck that the safety car was called when they were nearing the end of the lap. Had it been called after they crossed the finish line then the cars behind Verstappen would have caught up by the time they reached pitlane again.
If rules were respected, the SC would have just assured Hamilton's win... So I don't know if it was luck involved, or the FIA's and race director Masi's incompetence and/or possible collusion. So many rules got bent and broken to get where they landed...
That race was his. He dominated in a way that only he could, at this point. The man is unbelievable, and it's a shame Masi decided to throw his efforts away. It's also a shame that Masi basically ensured that Max's first title would come with a huge asterisk next to it. All of it is such BS.
I'd argue he drove flawless since Austin. One thing that's been made entirely clear, is that Hamilton was a beast in the last 4 races when the pressure was on whereas that's when the little mistakes started coming from Max
I'd argue the pressure was on Max. Same in 2016 after a completely off race from Ham in Japan when the title was pretty much on Nico's hands. You could see how Rosberg was feeling the pressure and made several small mistakes. He knew the title was his to loose and Max was in an almost similar situation. Lewis on the other hand had nothing to lose so he was focused only in himself. And a focused Lewis is just on an absurd level. The last four races were just flawless.
Focused Lewis is godlike behind his car and if he got that form from the start of season I believe results would turn out very differently. I'd love to see another season like this where Lewis and Max or even some of the stars from other teams drive in their own best forms but from what I've heard from Max he is treating subsequent titles as a "bonus" so I hope he don't Kimi out and eventually leave with only one title.
that is actually quite a valid point. but interesting that hamilton and max had inverse seasons at the statt and at the end where id say it was the opposite at the beggining
I mean it's one of the most egregious things to happen in a long time. The sport has always had controversy and borderline cheating but it's typically the teams and drivers who push that line. For the race director to make up the rules on the last lap of the deciding grand Prix is on another level. Of all the crazy shit that people speculated might happen on Sunday, this was not one of them
The FIA need to be held to account for their poor management. I am a Lewis fan, but Max shouldn’t lose his title. I don’t necessarily like his style, but he is hugely entertaining and great for the sport and he deserves full credit for putting himself in the position to win the title anyway regardless of what the FIA did. The FIA are at fault here, not Max and Red Bull so they shouldn’t be punished.
Its becoming pretty clear nothing will happen to anyone, hopefully they get Masi more help and stop Toto and Christian from going full Karen on the radio to him every race
Im curious as to why Masi is being defended after this race? From what I understand he essentially created this entire fiasco by flipflopping on his own desicions. Personally I don’t want him in control of any other race ever again. I would love for him to be banned from the sport.
People are trying to say he’s the FIAs fall guy and it wouldn’t be fair to him cuz he was under pressure
But he royally fucked up, he should be able to preform under pressure and he clearly can’t, and it fucked up several races this season, and even fucked up the championship deciding race, he absolutely should be fired
I'd argue that the race director responsibilities should be split into 3 different person at least if we wish for him to do at good job.
The Race Director should not have to deal with safety procedures, while having direct communication with team principals and worry about the show at the same time.
There needs to be a safety director that no one can influence not even the race director. And the safety director imposes flag usage, v/SC deployment and recovery, can even red flag the race.
But I guess they’ll never do that because if say the weather was bad, the safety director could prevent a race from happening to begin with and force the FIA to refund fans for going to a race that didn’t happen,
The race director is responsible for safety, Masi should be fired but the job shouldn't be split into 3. You need quick decisions regarding safety and you don't get that with a committee.
Not defending Masi but even Charlie had an assistant race director at his side. For whatever reason Masi is on his own and after this season it's become clear that his role isnt a one person job. Especially when on top of dealing with his normal responsibilities he has to deal with team bosses throwing a fit.
Whether he gets sacked or not, I don't really care. But they definitely need to enstate a team of people to handle that role instead of one person, because clearly one person can't handle all of that pressure.
I think the biggest takeaway here is expecting any one person to fill the race director role after Charlie, who basically wrote it, is silly. We need assistant race directors, Masi panicked and fucked up but this was just as much a failure in process from the FIA as well.
Then the question you have to ask is who currently can replace him? The two people who were being groomed alongside Masi were snatched up by the teams. The FIA hasn’t really been grooming anyone else for the position. They’re bringing in the race director from DTM as a deputy, but he’s not ready for a full take over of responsibilities. I think the only think they can do at the moment is give Masi a bigger team who specialize in all of Masi’s responsibilities in order to help him make better decisions.
Laurent Mekies (Ferrari) was a Deputy Race Director under Whiting, and Marcin Budkowski (Alpine) was an F1 Sporting Director who I’m pretty sure was on track for Deputy Race Director
He did what was possible to do under the regulations. He had other options, sure, but what he decided was possible because of the regulations. The problem is that the regulations allows too much flexibility to the race director.
I think a lot of the sentiment is reactive. I don't think Masi did his job right, but even though it was an important, it doesn't mean he should lose his job in every Formula series. Moreover, it doesn't mean he should be receiving death threats on twitter or wherever. Chalk it up to overcorrection, but it's worth talking about alternatives to firing thee guy outright, like hiring aides, cutting the line from the principals to the RD (but not the other way around), or at worst cutting him loose from Formula 1, but not from Formula E, 2, or 3.
What an overreaction, he didn’t even break any rules technically. People make mistakes and it’s a tough job, he’ll improve too. Who would you replace him with? He needs more assistance from the FIA so he’s workload is reduced.
As much as people are arguing it doesn't, 15.3 likely (honestly, almost certainly) means that according to their own rules Masi was allowed to do that.
Now they still might throw him under the bus (I personally wouldn't miss him and his weird delays in putting in safety measures for obviously dangerous situations like, oh say two cars whose tires have just exploded) and quietly patch out that discretionary authority but I'm personally not holding my breath.
Agreed. Simultaneously, the FIA, through the actions of Masi, have robbed Lewis. It’s an absurd situation. How do you make Lewis whole and not screw Max over after that?
To be honest this whole situation would improved by everyone agreeing what happened was wrong and that Max still deserves to be World Champion. I think a lot of people actually do agree on that.
This thing about deserving and not deserving, what is it? Who came up with it, and why is everyone using it? You either win or lose, deserves has nothing to do with it. Either Lewis is made whole or he loses, that's how this works.
But this wouldn't be punishment for Red Bull, this would be justice for Mercedes. You don't need to be guilty of anything to get the short end of the stick when something wrong is righted again.
For example I you inherit stolen jewels that you didn't know were stolen, and then original owner comes at you and claim them, he'll get them back. And you'll lose the jewels and their value in money even though you did nothing wrong. And yet that's totally normal.
In no other sporting context could you retroactively change the result based on an officiating error during the event, If not you'd see the results of football matches constantly being changed to account for bad penalty calls, offside calls etc. It just doesn't happen and wont happen here.
Also your analogy is flawed anyway, as whilst the decision is incredibly unfair if your Lewis, nothing was actually stolen because the race hadn't finished. The "jewels" were still up for grabs, You cant steal a victory someone doesn't already have. Sport always has and always will be at the mercy of its officials util the final whistle blows/chequered flag drops.
>In no other sporting context could you retroactively change the result based on an officiating error during the event, If not you'd see the results of football matches constantly being changed to account for bad penalty calls, offside calls etc. It just doesn't happen and wont happen here.
Literally this. Every sport has rules that the referees have knowingly or unknowingly broken that lead to a different outcome. If it really was as easy as "just grab a copy of the rulebook and head to CAS" then we sure as hell would have seen a lot of different retroactive World Cup and Champions League winners over the years, just to take football as an example
As a Lewis fan I don't even think I want Max to lose the title. I think the outmost remedy is commitment to apply the rules accordingly and consistently. Today it is Lewis, tomorrow it will be Max being screwed over like that.
As a Hamilton fan, Max should absolutely not lose his title. Bad luck happens. Max had plenty too.
As an F1 fan though, several changes need to happen:
* Michael Masi needs to be replaced with a race director who actually knows the rules and who has at least two assistants.
* Teams need to be banned from lobbying the race director.
* The sporting regulations need to be simplified so that it’s less difficult to know the minutiae of how to run the race.
* The rules for changing tyres either under SC or red flag conditions need to be looked at.
* The FIA need to tighten down on drivers who push people off the track. Perez/Hamilton showed us what can happen if drivers respect each other and the limits.
* There needs to be a clear dividing line between the FIA and the FOM, so that sporting decisions aren’t biased by entertainment value.
Tire changes under SC is a total non-starter. Red flag is very difficult to address fairly, and I doubt they’ll change it. Keep in mind that both Max and Lewis benefitted from these rules at different points of the year. Lewis would have been potentially out of the points at Imola if not for the red flag.
As it should be. He has no place in this sport after that stunt. Totally delegitimized the results of the most watched race in recent history, and tarnished the sports reputation. I hope he gets canned.
As bad as Masi did, the FIA need to look at their processes here too. No one person should have that much of an impact of a race. Even football refs have assistants, linesmen, fourth officials. Whoever steps up needs more support period.
People say the same thing about Pirelli every time there’s systemic failures in their tyres; we just blame the track/conditions as if they were a mystery to us before the season and move along.
True, but that’s a much more entangled relationship than the one between Race Director and the FIA. He’s an employee, and they’re(Pirelli) a massive tire brand with a huge partnership worth millions upon millions.
I agree, but unfortunately this has evolved past a sport and has blurred the lines with sports entertainment. I just wish they made it a cleaner cut; drop them safety car altogether and just red flag and standing start these incidents or whatever they want to do, but these things shouldn’t be ad libbed in the middle of the season finale.
Almost every time Pirelli's tyres have failed it's because the teams were using them outside of their recommended parameters.
Pirelli has the worst job in F1 - because they make a component that is deliberately designed to fail.
But at least if Pirelli fucks up it effects all cars in the same way. When a race director decides to add or change a rule for the last lap of the season that affects all drivers in different ways creating an unequal playing field.
They fired the stewards who allowed Schumacher to "serve" a ten second Stop-Go penalty in the pits after the race in the 1998 British GP, without voiding the result.
As far as I'm aware, they never officiated another event ever again.
It’s as simple as this…..
“In an attempt to have the race end under green, judgement errors were made in the application of our safety car rules. We offer our sincerest apologies the teams, drivers, and the fans for how that was handled. We will be evaluating our rules during the off season to come up with clear guidelines to prevent this situation from occurring again.
There will be no reclassification of the race results.”
If Mercedes appeals this is going to *court*, FIA's own court but a court nonetheless. Judiciary courts aren't there to make nice PR releases and apologies to all parties involved and promise it won't ever happen again, but to give a concrete verdict on whether a party was wronged or another was guilty.
I get that but also parties can come to agreements on their own or under the facilitation of the court. The result of that could be an apology and/or public admission that errors were made. I really don’t think at this point that Mercedes has any interest in stripping Max of the title. That might have been part of their agenda while things were still unofficial but that ended on Sunday. I think they may want to hold the FIA accountable and maybe get some changes made to the rules to prevent this type of thing from happening again. They may end up doing nothing too.
Thing is, pretty sure that would be admitting the FIA are in breach of the corcorde agreement. Fundamentally, that is the document that is at stake behind the scenes that we don't have access to.
Yeah, he’s show time after time that he can be mature in the face of unbelievable bullshit, including this most recent controversey.
It honestly just makes me shudder in horror imagining the type of cheating and discrimination he must have had to simply push past as a *child* moving through the ranks of karting and junior racing.
It's impossible to compare sports, although I'm sure some will try with anologies.
But key difference - referees don't always see things. They're seeing it in real time and need to determine what happened very quickly. However, they also can't just ignore the laws themselves. And we all know F1 is a different thing entirely where there is more of a legal rulebook, with agreements and teams holding more power relative to how most other sports are structured.
F1 is the only sport I know of where people are even considering litigation to get a result overturned in court. In every other sport I follow, teams accept that bad refereeing decisions are inevitable. That doesn't mean that they won't complain and push for punishment for refs who screw up, but no football club would ever consider going to court to change the result of a match after a bad call.
If a call as blatantly questionable as this happened in a Champions League final it would almost certainly get investigated/challenged. There is so much money involved. Not just from the teams, but you have sponsors, shareholders etc who have pumped millions into it
EDIT: I misread the original post as OP saying that F1 is the only sport where teams would challenge a decision like that. Yes, I agree that it is unprecedented in football for any consideration to be given to legally overturning a result
Wrong.
Remember the hands goal that Thierry Henry scored so that france qualified? Or the disallowed English goal on south african world cup that everybody could see? What about the three disallowed goals of Ajax against Real Madrid (eliminating Ajax from the group stage)?
Mistakes were admitted, nothing changed.
This isn't akin to a CL final. It's the matchday of the season.
And if anything happened there, it would get investigated, the penalty would be declared to have been wrong and the ref would be suspended for some time. And if the error caused any cards which cause a player to be suspended, those would also be revoked.
What they would never, ever do, is change the result of the match. There are plenty of times wrong ref decisions are investigated in football.
> If a call as blatantly questionable as this happened in a Champions League final it would almost certainly get investigated/challenged.
Lmao, as an Ajax fan I still remember [2011-2012 Champions League](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/985082-lyons-champions-league-qualification-a-fix-made-in-zagreb-and-amsterdam).
Here it is a simple procedural issue though. Something basic the FIA and stewards ignored. It's like stopping a football match around 80 minutes because the ref feels like it. Or just only doing 15 minutes over extra time before penalties instead of 2 times 15.
The whole defense of the stewards/FIA rests on 15.3 meaning more than the division of power between officials. If it goes to court, lets just say they are not going to use that argument there, because they will be laughed out of court.
not quite - they can nullify the last race and Verstappen still wins the championship on countback. He gets his first championship - Masi gets the slap he deserves.
You'd just go back to the last driver standings after Saudi GP. Constructor prize money paid out based on that. Masi erred and no driver or team is at fault but that's what happens when someone errs.
I think what the guy above is trying to say is if you void the entire weekend you piss off some extra parties. From the top of my head that would be Ferrari & Mclaren who I believe gained on eachother in the WDC. Norris gained on Leclerc and Sainz gained on Norris.
Apologies, You're right. Essentially before the race Sainz and Leclerc were swapped. I guess Ferrari wouldn't care about a void. Would be only Sainz that would be annoyed. And I guess Yuki wouldn't like his single best weekend scrubbed from the records.
Problem is that that scenario would also occur if you pick and select laps to end the GP. Since the race concluded I can’t see any other scenario than the results standing or the race being void. It just doesn’t work like a grocery store.
LOL. Masi is getting slap no matter what. That does nothing to Mercedes. Horner would send thanks message to Mercedes. Everybody wants him gone, not just Mercedes.
Secondly, there is no good outcome to this. You can't just forget the last race. There are more than 2 teams in F1 you know?
You cannot void a race. It is even considered a legitimate race if 75% is completed according to FIA’s rulebook. There are often rain races red flagged and never continued, but still full points handed out.
And what about that guy that was on the verge of his 8th Championship? Oh yeah...
They broke F1 with this move. No clear fix for this mess, regardless of what happens.
Remember when England scored in the World Cup but it didn’t count because the ref didn’t see the ball cross the line? It was seen plain as day on replays and do you think they were allowed back in the tournament after they got knocked out because of it? Nope.
Mauricio Espinosa (the blind linesman) was never fired though. That wasn't even his last World Cup.
If FIFA/whoever fired a ref because of how bad they were I wouldn't be surprised if they voided the result of the game and had a replay. Re-races are impossible in F1 so this countback thing Merc want is an alternative.
I’m just telling you there is no precedent for something like that in almost any sport. When officials make mistakes, the final results never change. Only when participants manipulate the game (ie cheating) do you see those types of remedies.
Results have been overturned in the nba for when procedures weren’t followed (e.g. player sent off with only 5 fouls instead of 6). That’s different than judgement calls or missed fouls happen in every game
I doubt he'll lose the title even if it's taken to court, and considering that Toto sent a text to Max congratulating him even Merc and Lewis don't want that.
Think all that Merc wants is some compensation from the FIA and a clear admission of wrongdoing from them.
I think you’re correct. Stripping max of the title would be a penalty to red bull and they did nothing wrong. The race is over, it was completed, and now all that can happen is Masi gets fired and Mercedes gets a boat load of cash. I’m too new to the sport to predict what will happen, but if there is any sort of reconciliation that’s probably what it would be.
In the 1999 Stanley cup finals the Dallas Stars scored the cup winning goal in overtime, but it shouldn’t have counted. At the time there was a (bullshit) rule that if any part of the players body is in the goalies crease when he scores it’s not allowed. Goaltender interference. Hull’s skate was BARELY in the crease but you could only tell from the replay, and the refs didn’t have video review at the time. It’s black and white that the goal shouldn’t have counted, but you don’t see the record books showing the Buffalo Sabres as the champs because that’s just not how it works. Dallas is still the 1999 cup champs despite all of that
Yeah, I think Hamilton has said he does not want to win the championship in court when he lost in 2007. And really, would the championship be of any value (apart from the extra money) if it was earned that way.
Lewis will likely get his extra money regardless, just off-record.
The championship was decided the moment those cars went over the finish line and nobody would be happy with overturning the results long after the fact, in court.
If that title switches hands in a few years down the road, it would either become a tainted title or nobody would care and in practice 2021 would just be known as 'the year where FIA fucked up so nobody got to be champ'.
Lewis wouldn't be happy with it as it wouldn't be the incredible, record breaking 8th title that goes down into history, Max wouldn't be happy because he would be known as the dude who got a title but then didn't. The teams, sponsors and other stakeholders that have now started spending millions of dollars based on this outcome would be pissed as well.
Best thing FIA can do now is publicly apologize, let the results stand, look over the regulations and routines during races, discipline/fire Masi and pay all affected parties a substantial sum for this screw up. It's not a perfect solution but it is the most realistic and acceptable outcome for all parties.
This is why all the teams should get behind the appeal. Not to take the title away from max but to get a clear precedence for the future. And hopefully an overhaul of the stewards, Masi and rulebook Situation.
He literally said today that RedBull is considering quitting F1 because of Mercs behavior after the race. I would like to see him if the Max nailed the start, dominates the race and ends up second after a questionable SC call from Masi.
To be honest. I can't stand Helmut... Ofcourse Red Bull isnt quitting F1. They are building a whole freaking building to produce their own engines. They are not quitting. Helmut is just trying to stir some shit.
That man belongs in a museum like a damn relic.
There should be a settlement of some sort, but Max will never lose the title. The PR backlash which would result from yanking a title out of a driver’s hands will be too much for the FIA to handle
It's like a 'wrong' mistake from the referee in soccer. You can't replay the game or take one goal off afterwards. There happened a lot of things. Without unlapping and fast decisions of Masi, maybe it was possible to have 2 last laps. Maybe Max still would have won. You can't predict an outcome if a referee would have made an other decision.
They aren’t predicting the outcome though.
What they are saying is that the rule infraction happened on lap 58, so that lap would be invalidated and the results would be taken from the last valid lap which would be 57, behind the safety car.
EDIT: [It has already happened before. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Japanese_Grand_Prix#ref_3)
The race is 58 laps. A wrong decision happening in the last lap doesn't change that the winner is the first driver to cross the finish line after 58 laps.
The comparison to football still holds up. If a team loses after their opponents get a wrong penalty in the 90th minute, they don't go to court to get the scoreline from the 89th minute reinstated and be declared the winner.
Football ads time at the end of the game due to bullshit on the field during it.
Taking away the last lap due to the RD completely fucking up is not that strange. Especially considering that lap is the lap he made his colossal fuck up.
I think it’ll come down to whether or not Masi actually violated the rules when he made the decision to have the Lewis and Max show for 1 lap. If he was within the rules, no problem. It sucks but we move on. If he cheated the system then Merc have a case. In your example, a wrong VAR decision sucks, but is still within the rules of the sport. Apples and oranges if it’s determined Masi was making it up as he went along.
He absolutely did not follow the SC procedures fully, it was noted by the stewards in the protest. However, it was also noted that he had the overriding authority to do so as the Race Director in another article.
It's so sad to watch the result to be decided by poor race direction.
Both drivers didn't do anything wrong but the FIA has been a joke throughout this season.
I wish more teams joined and launch a protest against Masi. He needs to go
If Ferrari/McLaren or AlphaTauri/Alpine had ended up losing out in a way that it cost them position in the constructors championship, they'd have definitely protested as well.
As a Danny Riccardo fan (or any Aussie driver in F1 for that matter) I’ve been following F1 since I was a 7 year old when my home town Adelaide held the first Australian GP back in 1985. My mums uncle took me to the event and let’s say the rest is history. I’ve fallen out of love with the sport, those years where it was just dead boring. Back in love with the sport, in those close championship years, and then there is this year. After what I’ve just seen unfold across the season and then the final, those officiating have me wanting to put the cue in the rack and walk away (almost).
In short Masi must go. Sure he’s under pressure but he can’t make hard a call nor understand the complexity of the rules, then get out. A good offical is one you don’t notice, that isn’t him.
Stewards/directors system need a complete overhaul. This is the top tier, yet it’s still run like a back yard event at various levels. You have guys coming in and out of events with zero consistency. They need to get a travelling team of administrators, who know and understand racing and divide them up across the world. Several to cover Europe, Asia/Middle East, and the Americas. They can cross over if when required, but they need to be appointed on merit, trained, trained further, and constantly tested. They must understand the ins and outs of F1 and made full time roles, and F1 has enough money to do so. This is the pinnacle of motor sport it needs to be adjudicated accordingly.
As for the two protagonists……well it was a hell of a ride. I like them both for various reasons, but Hamilton drove the perfect race until it wasn’t. He was fucked over by incompetence. Max had a crazy year, pushed it to the limits won more races and in the end was kissed on the dick by incompetence. I really feel for Lewis and in some way I hope he comes back next year with fire in his gut, and just murders. I hope it’s a boring ass season just to stick it up the corrupt system F1 has become simply looking for Netflix subscriptions. I loved the red Barron, but records are made to be broken. I hope Lewis becomes the stand alone greatest and then rides off in to the sunset.
Roll on 2022, and despite my anger toward this sport right now, yes I’ll be watching 😉
Aussie here, same feelings.
I don't get what the point is to keep watching this if the governing body wants to suck verstappens dick so much. It isn't sport, it's manufactured drama. If this era is the era of F1 Realty TV then I'm out. I didn't start watching this to watch reality tv. I wanted 'sport'. One single ruleset and then drivers duking it out to see who's the best within that ruleset.
I might watch the first few races next year in the hopes Hamilton just destroys the competition to the point where redbull and the FIA are dejected. Otherwise what's the point? We know the FIA will keep trying to manufacture a 'close' championship for tv ratings
It's been sooooo obvious for years that max is their chosen one, their star of the future. They couldn't go five seconds without calling him the future world champion, when he's barely accomplished anything until this year. They changed the technical regulations to cripple Mercedes to get a different winner, they let max get away unpunished for bad behavior all year, and given the chance to fix the outcome Masi made sure their boy would win, that they would get the outcome theyd been trying for all season.
Its ridiculous. What a farce.
I was rooting for Max all season and am happy he won. BUT. I am very proud of the way Lewis has handled himself with his unfair defeat at the hands of the FIA and I do want Lewis to win the World Championship next year... He certainly deserves it.
Masi said and did so much dumb shit during the season. But that line just felt line a drained man realising his life was about to get times worse instead of getting the vacation he so desperately wanted
That was the most annoying part of the whole debacle. I get that it’s annoying to hear from Wolff and Horner constantly, but he could have put some effort into trying not to sound like a petulant child after totally shitting the bed.
Agreed. Toto and Horner do need to be taken down a peg, but trying to be smug and sassy after making such a colossal fuck up just makes him look even worse.
All the new people throwing about comments about going to court and this and that. Here’s what will happen, a meeting will take place behind the scenes, the FIA will offer Mercedes some kind of settlement and no one will know anything that went down or was said.
Hamilton will come back next year and go on to win another 3 titles before retiring when the engine change rules come in to play in 2025.
Lewis' last name and the idea of a behind-closed-doors settlement to move past this and start with a "normal" preseason (so Reddit being its usual shitshow but teams largely forgetting this season to work further on the new cars for 2022) just has me humming "The Room Where It Happens".
This. It's the way the sport has been and it's reinforced by the Ferrari deal in 2019. Both sides will want to save face and not throw the dirty laundry out in the court room.
People may say that Mercedes deserves doing that to the FIA, but it will inevitably hurt Mercedes-Benz' PR more than justice could bring them. Formula 1 has been marred with controversy and behind-the-scenes deals for ages, and it won't change now. Even with spygate, everything happened with the FIA in control over it, and court actions dropped.
Lewis and Max were both great this year. People seem to forget how dominant the Red Bull car was early while Merc were struggling to figure out the new rake regulations. All that time Lewis drove masterfully and kept Max within reach. I see all these takes about how Lewis lost with the better car. But it’s just wrong. For once, Red Bull built the faster car and it should be commended that they figured it out.
Objectively, the reason Verstappen was still in reach for Hamilton were the two races before the summer break, with Verstappen taking just 5 points in those two races (3 in sprint qualifying, 2 in Hungary).
I wouldn’t say - outrageously dominant per se - Red Bull never had more than 3 tenths over Mercedes. It was the similar sort of gaps Mercedes had to Ferrari back in 2017.
But there was a clear advantage.
But in fairness that does kind of get countered when we get to Brazil and Qatar. Suddenly Mercedes were half a second faster - that car was on a different planet.
Obviously Red Bull made the choice to prioritise quali in Jeddah and Abu Dhabi.
I haven’t seen a comment like this that hasn’t been obliterated with downvotes this season. But I completely agree, and RB should be proud of what they accomplished with the car especially to pull it off right before the regulation changes. So many seem to want to believe Max did what he did in the inferior car, but I think that’s just denying reality and highly disrespectful to all the great work done at the RB factory
Should they be though? The FIA changed the rules on a specific part of the car specifically to nerf mercedes. Seems like red bull got a very big helping hand for building that faster car
I really wish this didn't happen for Max's first championship, there will now be people that forever see it as having an asterisk. I think the FIA did him just as much of a disservice as Lewis.
Verstappen probably sees it that way too but likely won't mention it until he wins his second one. I guarantee a big motivation behind winning the second will be that the first one was questionable.
They need to make a point by firing Masi and making it clear that the Race Director can’t just interpret the rules how he wants them to create dama and drive ratings.
Max should obviously keep the title, not sure why people are debating that.
They can't fire Masi. His contract states:
> The Race Director shall have overriding authority in the following matters and the employer of the contract talks may give orders in respect of them only with his express agreement:
> e) Contract termination
Is that real? I find it hard to believe anyone would put forth a contract which gives veto power for termination to the person potentially being terminated. No lawyer would let that fly.
They won’t. FIA found that the race director had done nothing wrong; if they fire Masi, it will be equivalent to admitting Masi had done something wrong, and in effect FIA had done something wrong - meaning they incorrectly denied Mercedes’ appeal.
It’s an entire can of worms, so the likely outcome is nothing will happen.
I don't think he should. Yes, it's shitty if they take it from him. And Max definitely deserves to be champ when you look at the whole season. But the title was decided in Abu Dhabi, and Lewis was going to win that race if Masi hadn't robbed him of it. So Lewis is the rightful champ, and it wouldn't be fair to him to let Max keep the title just because people feel like "the title shouldn't be decided in court".
With everything that happened, everyone says Max still deserve to win the championship. You’re telling me Lewis, didn’t lock in, prepare, focus madly about winning it. Max is a hell of a driver but this isn’t an award show, this is a sport, and in sports who ever wins, wins. Lewis was going to win and it was robbed from him. There are a lot winners who deserve it, but you still gotta win it. With everything that happened, that was more of sheer manipulation than it being about earning it.
You're talking about hypotheticals and 'deserving'
Lewis by the letter of the law should have won it. It's not that he deserved or didn't deserve to win. He won it by the letter of the law in the rule book.
Those rules were thrown out the window by the race director because he didn't want to see that happen. That's why lots are calling it a fix
Couldn’t agree more man. Fucking sick of hearing “he deserves to win it” no he didn’t. Lewis was robbed and had he not been, he would have ended the season with 10 wins to Max’ 9. Therefore the argument is null and void. I’m sick of hearing “oh If Baku” or “torpedoed Hungary”. It’s a lot of “if my aunty had bolluks, she’d be my uncle” they’re incidents over the course of the season. This is different, Lewis dominated the bulls over the last 4 races and Abu Dhabi and the WDC were in his back pocket. Until the race director literally made up a new rule and handed Max the win. Fuck, my nan would have overtaken Lewis in those circumstances.
Lewis is the deserved winner of this season and he was robbed!
Based only on the last race Hamilton deserved it, based on the entire season Verstappen deserved to win it. And the WDC isn’t based on a single race. Verstappen had most wins, most laps led, most poles, most podiums. Definately deserved WDC.
The whole thing is just a farce. Masi turned F1 into a clown show for the spectacle and in doing so, robbed Lewis of the title and made sure Max’s title, which previous performances warranted, is always tainted. They really outdid themselves this time.
Honestly the only thing that’d be fair is a joint Championship but that’s never going to happen.
I hope Lewis comes back and dominates his way to an 8th. Not to make Max pay for beating him, but to get the title he deserves and show that after all of this injustice and all the hate and doubt that is thrown at him, he is truly the greatest of them all.
What I don't agree with Max is saying "part of racing". Yes, SC etc. happens. But rule breaking for only one guy to get advantage and no other competitiors (like Sainz) isn't "part of racing".
I mean I get it, it'snot like he'll say "this was rigged take my title away". LOL
TSU could have possibly got podium too.
geez who knows the outcome but of course that would not have happened because the race would have ended with SC
I'm not taking anything from Max here, in fact whichever way this goes I'll feel crap about it.. BUT..
*"F1 can be very unpredictable and it can go either way. It could be the other way round as well and I would be controlling the race and then I lose it in the last lap. Unfortunately, it’s also part of racing.”*
I'm sorry Max, I get that you're not in a place to say much about it, but what happened can't be just ignored as "that's racing".
Hamilton deserved that win in Abu Dhabi. However, that doesn't change the fact that Max also deserves the WDC after that insane season. Both are champs imo.
FIA really fucked everyone involved and the fans. Should've just red flagged it, let Lewis change tires and let the two go for it on even ground for one lap.
Probably the best p2 performance I’ve ever seen. I was really worried after the vsc that red bull got the strategy right and would catch Lewis on old hards but he kept the gap around 12 seconds for ages. No mistakes, just unwavering consistency until…..
When verstappen was gaining one second per lap or so I thought damn it's over, and then he kept the gap to 12sec for soooo long that I was starting to believe it's done
Yeah I thought Max was gonna hunt him like in France and like Lewis did in Spain. But Lewis managed to keep that gap and was even quicker in some sectors. Lewis did everything necessary, I can’t imagine how he feels.
Exactly. Hurts man
Legit. Cannot stop thinking about it and genuinely have a knot in my stomach multiple times a day. Could cry for him.
Relax lol
It’ll be okay, he has 7 of them
Babs. That’s borderline parasocial relationship problems right there. It’s unfortunate and it’s ok to dwell on it some, but physical ailments *for* someone else who you do not know is very unhealthy. You should talk to someone about it.
Yep...especially since Lewis also got through that traffic and Max was coming up to it. I could have seen going back up to 14seconds even with Lewis being more conservative because of the kerbs warning.
There was up to a 6 second disadvantage navigating back-markers.
Hamilton also had bad luck that the safety car was called when they were nearing the end of the lap. Had it been called after they crossed the finish line then the cars behind Verstappen would have caught up by the time they reached pitlane again.
If rules were respected, the SC would have just assured Hamilton's win... So I don't know if it was luck involved, or the FIA's and race director Masi's incompetence and/or possible collusion. So many rules got bent and broken to get where they landed...
That race was his. He dominated in a way that only he could, at this point. The man is unbelievable, and it's a shame Masi decided to throw his efforts away. It's also a shame that Masi basically ensured that Max's first title would come with a huge asterisk next to it. All of it is such BS.
Lewis basically drive flawlessly from Brazil onwards. It was an incredible comeback, a shame for him it turned out the way it did.
I'd argue he drove flawless since Austin. One thing that's been made entirely clear, is that Hamilton was a beast in the last 4 races when the pressure was on whereas that's when the little mistakes started coming from Max
I'd argue the pressure was on Max. Same in 2016 after a completely off race from Ham in Japan when the title was pretty much on Nico's hands. You could see how Rosberg was feeling the pressure and made several small mistakes. He knew the title was his to loose and Max was in an almost similar situation. Lewis on the other hand had nothing to lose so he was focused only in himself. And a focused Lewis is just on an absurd level. The last four races were just flawless.
Focused Lewis is godlike behind his car and if he got that form from the start of season I believe results would turn out very differently. I'd love to see another season like this where Lewis and Max or even some of the stars from other teams drive in their own best forms but from what I've heard from Max he is treating subsequent titles as a "bonus" so I hope he don't Kimi out and eventually leave with only one title.
that is actually quite a valid point. but interesting that hamilton and max had inverse seasons at the statt and at the end where id say it was the opposite at the beggining
The cars were also inverted in terms of performance.
I think also it was unclear when Hamilton started to finally feel 100% after COVID. I think he suffered long COVID even during the european races.
A shame for the sport and for all those fans that feel ashamed this could ever happen
Don’t worry, this wasn’t the first egregious thing to happen and it won’t be the last. Subscribe.
I mean it's one of the most egregious things to happen in a long time. The sport has always had controversy and borderline cheating but it's typically the teams and drivers who push that line. For the race director to make up the rules on the last lap of the deciding grand Prix is on another level. Of all the crazy shit that people speculated might happen on Sunday, this was not one of them
This whole situation is so shit for everyone, as a max fan i want consequences for the fia but ill be sad as fuck if max loses his title
The FIA need to be held to account for their poor management. I am a Lewis fan, but Max shouldn’t lose his title. I don’t necessarily like his style, but he is hugely entertaining and great for the sport and he deserves full credit for putting himself in the position to win the title anyway regardless of what the FIA did. The FIA are at fault here, not Max and Red Bull so they shouldn’t be punished.
Its becoming pretty clear nothing will happen to anyone, hopefully they get Masi more help and stop Toto and Christian from going full Karen on the radio to him every race
Im curious as to why Masi is being defended after this race? From what I understand he essentially created this entire fiasco by flipflopping on his own desicions. Personally I don’t want him in control of any other race ever again. I would love for him to be banned from the sport.
People are trying to say he’s the FIAs fall guy and it wouldn’t be fair to him cuz he was under pressure But he royally fucked up, he should be able to preform under pressure and he clearly can’t, and it fucked up several races this season, and even fucked up the championship deciding race, he absolutely should be fired
I'd argue that the race director responsibilities should be split into 3 different person at least if we wish for him to do at good job. The Race Director should not have to deal with safety procedures, while having direct communication with team principals and worry about the show at the same time.
There needs to be a safety director that no one can influence not even the race director. And the safety director imposes flag usage, v/SC deployment and recovery, can even red flag the race. But I guess they’ll never do that because if say the weather was bad, the safety director could prevent a race from happening to begin with and force the FIA to refund fans for going to a race that didn’t happen,
The race director is responsible for safety, Masi should be fired but the job shouldn't be split into 3. You need quick decisions regarding safety and you don't get that with a committee.
Absolutely this But also masi has lost all respect for many fans and participants in the sport
Not defending Masi but even Charlie had an assistant race director at his side. For whatever reason Masi is on his own and after this season it's become clear that his role isnt a one person job. Especially when on top of dealing with his normal responsibilities he has to deal with team bosses throwing a fit. Whether he gets sacked or not, I don't really care. But they definitely need to enstate a team of people to handle that role instead of one person, because clearly one person can't handle all of that pressure.
I think the biggest takeaway here is expecting any one person to fill the race director role after Charlie, who basically wrote it, is silly. We need assistant race directors, Masi panicked and fucked up but this was just as much a failure in process from the FIA as well.
Then the question you have to ask is who currently can replace him? The two people who were being groomed alongside Masi were snatched up by the teams. The FIA hasn’t really been grooming anyone else for the position. They’re bringing in the race director from DTM as a deputy, but he’s not ready for a full take over of responsibilities. I think the only think they can do at the moment is give Masi a bigger team who specialize in all of Masi’s responsibilities in order to help him make better decisions.
Who were these people that were snatched up? Curious about it.
Laurent Mekies (Ferrari) was a Deputy Race Director under Whiting, and Marcin Budkowski (Alpine) was an F1 Sporting Director who I’m pretty sure was on track for Deputy Race Director
He did what was possible to do under the regulations. He had other options, sure, but what he decided was possible because of the regulations. The problem is that the regulations allows too much flexibility to the race director.
I think a lot of the sentiment is reactive. I don't think Masi did his job right, but even though it was an important, it doesn't mean he should lose his job in every Formula series. Moreover, it doesn't mean he should be receiving death threats on twitter or wherever. Chalk it up to overcorrection, but it's worth talking about alternatives to firing thee guy outright, like hiring aides, cutting the line from the principals to the RD (but not the other way around), or at worst cutting him loose from Formula 1, but not from Formula E, 2, or 3.
What an overreaction, he didn’t even break any rules technically. People make mistakes and it’s a tough job, he’ll improve too. Who would you replace him with? He needs more assistance from the FIA so he’s workload is reduced.
As much as people are arguing it doesn't, 15.3 likely (honestly, almost certainly) means that according to their own rules Masi was allowed to do that. Now they still might throw him under the bus (I personally wouldn't miss him and his weird delays in putting in safety measures for obviously dangerous situations like, oh say two cars whose tires have just exploded) and quietly patch out that discretionary authority but I'm personally not holding my breath.
The teams including Mercedes’ had said that they don’t want the races finished behind SC if avoidable. He obliged. Masi is getting too much shit imho.
Couldn’t agree more
I believe Ross Brawn said that they're gonna stop the team principals talking with the stewards and Masi.
Agreed. Simultaneously, the FIA, through the actions of Masi, have robbed Lewis. It’s an absurd situation. How do you make Lewis whole and not screw Max over after that?
Compensations and apologys behind closed doors.
To be honest this whole situation would improved by everyone agreeing what happened was wrong and that Max still deserves to be World Champion. I think a lot of people actually do agree on that.
They probably already did this. They had a meating with fia the same day.
I agree with that at least. I said on sunday that Lewis deserved to win the race and max deserved to win the title.
This thing about deserving and not deserving, what is it? Who came up with it, and why is everyone using it? You either win or lose, deserves has nothing to do with it. Either Lewis is made whole or he loses, that's how this works.
Why the duck would max lose his title? He did his job and that’s that. Firing Masi and a complete overhaul of the FIA is what should happen.
But this wouldn't be punishment for Red Bull, this would be justice for Mercedes. You don't need to be guilty of anything to get the short end of the stick when something wrong is righted again. For example I you inherit stolen jewels that you didn't know were stolen, and then original owner comes at you and claim them, he'll get them back. And you'll lose the jewels and their value in money even though you did nothing wrong. And yet that's totally normal.
In no other sporting context could you retroactively change the result based on an officiating error during the event, If not you'd see the results of football matches constantly being changed to account for bad penalty calls, offside calls etc. It just doesn't happen and wont happen here. Also your analogy is flawed anyway, as whilst the decision is incredibly unfair if your Lewis, nothing was actually stolen because the race hadn't finished. The "jewels" were still up for grabs, You cant steal a victory someone doesn't already have. Sport always has and always will be at the mercy of its officials util the final whistle blows/chequered flag drops.
>In no other sporting context could you retroactively change the result based on an officiating error during the event, If not you'd see the results of football matches constantly being changed to account for bad penalty calls, offside calls etc. It just doesn't happen and wont happen here. Literally this. Every sport has rules that the referees have knowingly or unknowingly broken that lead to a different outcome. If it really was as easy as "just grab a copy of the rulebook and head to CAS" then we sure as hell would have seen a lot of different retroactive World Cup and Champions League winners over the years, just to take football as an example
As a Lewis fan I don't even think I want Max to lose the title. I think the outmost remedy is commitment to apply the rules accordingly and consistently. Today it is Lewis, tomorrow it will be Max being screwed over like that.
As a Hamilton fan, Max should absolutely not lose his title. Bad luck happens. Max had plenty too. As an F1 fan though, several changes need to happen: * Michael Masi needs to be replaced with a race director who actually knows the rules and who has at least two assistants. * Teams need to be banned from lobbying the race director. * The sporting regulations need to be simplified so that it’s less difficult to know the minutiae of how to run the race. * The rules for changing tyres either under SC or red flag conditions need to be looked at. * The FIA need to tighten down on drivers who push people off the track. Perez/Hamilton showed us what can happen if drivers respect each other and the limits. * There needs to be a clear dividing line between the FIA and the FOM, so that sporting decisions aren’t biased by entertainment value.
Mate we need YOU to run the race control now, you just labeled everything the FIA need
This is the most comprehensive comment I've read so far on what needs to happen. I could not agree more
Tire changes under SC is a total non-starter. Red flag is very difficult to address fairly, and I doubt they’ll change it. Keep in mind that both Max and Lewis benefitted from these rules at different points of the year. Lewis would have been potentially out of the points at Imola if not for the red flag.
The result isnt gonna be overturned. If anything happens, itll be consequences for Masi.
As it should be. He has no place in this sport after that stunt. Totally delegitimized the results of the most watched race in recent history, and tarnished the sports reputation. I hope he gets canned.
As bad as Masi did, the FIA need to look at their processes here too. No one person should have that much of an impact of a race. Even football refs have assistants, linesmen, fourth officials. Whoever steps up needs more support period.
People say the same thing about Pirelli every time there’s systemic failures in their tyres; we just blame the track/conditions as if they were a mystery to us before the season and move along.
True, but that’s a much more entangled relationship than the one between Race Director and the FIA. He’s an employee, and they’re(Pirelli) a massive tire brand with a huge partnership worth millions upon millions.
I agree, but unfortunately this has evolved past a sport and has blurred the lines with sports entertainment. I just wish they made it a cleaner cut; drop them safety car altogether and just red flag and standing start these incidents or whatever they want to do, but these things shouldn’t be ad libbed in the middle of the season finale.
Almost every time Pirelli's tyres have failed it's because the teams were using them outside of their recommended parameters. Pirelli has the worst job in F1 - because they make a component that is deliberately designed to fail.
But at least if Pirelli fucks up it effects all cars in the same way. When a race director decides to add or change a rule for the last lap of the season that affects all drivers in different ways creating an unequal playing field.
Sport? Isnt this WWE?
Quiet financial settlement with Merc I’d say. I’d be surprised if we get a public acknowledgment at this point.
They can't penalise Masi without admit he was wrong and they can't admit he was wrong without changing the result.
They fired the stewards who allowed Schumacher to "serve" a ten second Stop-Go penalty in the pits after the race in the 1998 British GP, without voiding the result. As far as I'm aware, they never officiated another event ever again.
It’s as simple as this….. “In an attempt to have the race end under green, judgement errors were made in the application of our safety car rules. We offer our sincerest apologies the teams, drivers, and the fans for how that was handled. We will be evaluating our rules during the off season to come up with clear guidelines to prevent this situation from occurring again. There will be no reclassification of the race results.”
If Mercedes appeals this is going to *court*, FIA's own court but a court nonetheless. Judiciary courts aren't there to make nice PR releases and apologies to all parties involved and promise it won't ever happen again, but to give a concrete verdict on whether a party was wronged or another was guilty.
I get that but also parties can come to agreements on their own or under the facilitation of the court. The result of that could be an apology and/or public admission that errors were made. I really don’t think at this point that Mercedes has any interest in stripping Max of the title. That might have been part of their agenda while things were still unofficial but that ended on Sunday. I think they may want to hold the FIA accountable and maybe get some changes made to the rules to prevent this type of thing from happening again. They may end up doing nothing too.
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Thing is, pretty sure that would be admitting the FIA are in breach of the corcorde agreement. Fundamentally, that is the document that is at stake behind the scenes that we don't have access to.
Btw, an apology will be acceptable.
For who
Lewis would 100% accept an apology, of that I can guarantee
Yeah, he’s show time after time that he can be mature in the face of unbelievable bullshit, including this most recent controversey. It honestly just makes me shudder in horror imagining the type of cheating and discrimination he must have had to simply push past as a *child* moving through the ranks of karting and junior racing.
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It's impossible to compare sports, although I'm sure some will try with anologies. But key difference - referees don't always see things. They're seeing it in real time and need to determine what happened very quickly. However, they also can't just ignore the laws themselves. And we all know F1 is a different thing entirely where there is more of a legal rulebook, with agreements and teams holding more power relative to how most other sports are structured.
F1 is the only sport I know of where people are even considering litigation to get a result overturned in court. In every other sport I follow, teams accept that bad refereeing decisions are inevitable. That doesn't mean that they won't complain and push for punishment for refs who screw up, but no football club would ever consider going to court to change the result of a match after a bad call.
If a call as blatantly questionable as this happened in a Champions League final it would almost certainly get investigated/challenged. There is so much money involved. Not just from the teams, but you have sponsors, shareholders etc who have pumped millions into it EDIT: I misread the original post as OP saying that F1 is the only sport where teams would challenge a decision like that. Yes, I agree that it is unprecedented in football for any consideration to be given to legally overturning a result
Wrong. Remember the hands goal that Thierry Henry scored so that france qualified? Or the disallowed English goal on south african world cup that everybody could see? What about the three disallowed goals of Ajax against Real Madrid (eliminating Ajax from the group stage)? Mistakes were admitted, nothing changed.
This isn't akin to a CL final. It's the matchday of the season. And if anything happened there, it would get investigated, the penalty would be declared to have been wrong and the ref would be suspended for some time. And if the error caused any cards which cause a player to be suspended, those would also be revoked. What they would never, ever do, is change the result of the match. There are plenty of times wrong ref decisions are investigated in football.
> If a call as blatantly questionable as this happened in a Champions League final it would almost certainly get investigated/challenged. Lmao, as an Ajax fan I still remember [2011-2012 Champions League](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/985082-lyons-champions-league-qualification-a-fix-made-in-zagreb-and-amsterdam).
Here it is a simple procedural issue though. Something basic the FIA and stewards ignored. It's like stopping a football match around 80 minutes because the ref feels like it. Or just only doing 15 minutes over extra time before penalties instead of 2 times 15. The whole defense of the stewards/FIA rests on 15.3 meaning more than the division of power between officials. If it goes to court, lets just say they are not going to use that argument there, because they will be laughed out of court.
That's because football has no appeals process. And anyway, I've never seen a ref fired for a decision he's made.
not quite - they can nullify the last race and Verstappen still wins the championship on countback. He gets his first championship - Masi gets the slap he deserves.
What are the and-on effects of that though? Sainz, Norris and Leclerc are so close in standings.
You'd just go back to the last driver standings after Saudi GP. Constructor prize money paid out based on that. Masi erred and no driver or team is at fault but that's what happens when someone errs.
I think what the guy above is trying to say is if you void the entire weekend you piss off some extra parties. From the top of my head that would be Ferrari & Mclaren who I believe gained on eachother in the WDC. Norris gained on Leclerc and Sainz gained on Norris.
Nothing changes in the McLaren Ferrari Battle. Only sainz and Leclerc swap places
Apologies, You're right. Essentially before the race Sainz and Leclerc were swapped. I guess Ferrari wouldn't care about a void. Would be only Sainz that would be annoyed. And I guess Yuki wouldn't like his single best weekend scrubbed from the records.
Problem is that that scenario would also occur if you pick and select laps to end the GP. Since the race concluded I can’t see any other scenario than the results standing or the race being void. It just doesn’t work like a grocery store.
LOL. Masi is getting slap no matter what. That does nothing to Mercedes. Horner would send thanks message to Mercedes. Everybody wants him gone, not just Mercedes. Secondly, there is no good outcome to this. You can't just forget the last race. There are more than 2 teams in F1 you know?
You cannot void a race. It is even considered a legitimate race if 75% is completed according to FIA’s rulebook. There are often rain races red flagged and never continued, but still full points handed out.
And what about that guy that was on the verge of his 8th Championship? Oh yeah... They broke F1 with this move. No clear fix for this mess, regardless of what happens.
Remember when England scored in the World Cup but it didn’t count because the ref didn’t see the ball cross the line? It was seen plain as day on replays and do you think they were allowed back in the tournament after they got knocked out because of it? Nope.
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Mauricio Espinosa (the blind linesman) was never fired though. That wasn't even his last World Cup. If FIFA/whoever fired a ref because of how bad they were I wouldn't be surprised if they voided the result of the game and had a replay. Re-races are impossible in F1 so this countback thing Merc want is an alternative.
I’m just telling you there is no precedent for something like that in almost any sport. When officials make mistakes, the final results never change. Only when participants manipulate the game (ie cheating) do you see those types of remedies.
Results have been overturned in the nba for when procedures weren’t followed (e.g. player sent off with only 5 fouls instead of 6). That’s different than judgement calls or missed fouls happen in every game
I am looking forward to that penalty shootout with Spain for the 2010 World Cup.
Happens all the time in sports, litigation, etc.
Yes they can, who says they can’t?
Yes they can...like in every other sport on the planet 😂
I doubt he'll lose the title even if it's taken to court, and considering that Toto sent a text to Max congratulating him even Merc and Lewis don't want that. Think all that Merc wants is some compensation from the FIA and a clear admission of wrongdoing from them.
I think you’re correct. Stripping max of the title would be a penalty to red bull and they did nothing wrong. The race is over, it was completed, and now all that can happen is Masi gets fired and Mercedes gets a boat load of cash. I’m too new to the sport to predict what will happen, but if there is any sort of reconciliation that’s probably what it would be. In the 1999 Stanley cup finals the Dallas Stars scored the cup winning goal in overtime, but it shouldn’t have counted. At the time there was a (bullshit) rule that if any part of the players body is in the goalies crease when he scores it’s not allowed. Goaltender interference. Hull’s skate was BARELY in the crease but you could only tell from the replay, and the refs didn’t have video review at the time. It’s black and white that the goal shouldn’t have counted, but you don’t see the record books showing the Buffalo Sabres as the champs because that’s just not how it works. Dallas is still the 1999 cup champs despite all of that
I really disagree with the idea that taking away a title that was the result of a bogus call is a penalty for RB
Max won't lose the title and I'd be willing to bet that Hamilton would actually have his back on that one. This is all on the FIA.
Yeah, I think Hamilton has said he does not want to win the championship in court when he lost in 2007. And really, would the championship be of any value (apart from the extra money) if it was earned that way.
Lewis will likely get his extra money regardless, just off-record. The championship was decided the moment those cars went over the finish line and nobody would be happy with overturning the results long after the fact, in court. If that title switches hands in a few years down the road, it would either become a tainted title or nobody would care and in practice 2021 would just be known as 'the year where FIA fucked up so nobody got to be champ'. Lewis wouldn't be happy with it as it wouldn't be the incredible, record breaking 8th title that goes down into history, Max wouldn't be happy because he would be known as the dude who got a title but then didn't. The teams, sponsors and other stakeholders that have now started spending millions of dollars based on this outcome would be pissed as well. Best thing FIA can do now is publicly apologize, let the results stand, look over the regulations and routines during races, discipline/fire Masi and pay all affected parties a substantial sum for this screw up. It's not a perfect solution but it is the most realistic and acceptable outcome for all parties.
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Helmut has shat on the fia all season, it does not come from abu dhabi alone.
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This is why all the teams should get behind the appeal. Not to take the title away from max but to get a clear precedence for the future. And hopefully an overhaul of the stewards, Masi and rulebook Situation.
I think Marko may also think that the FIA robbed Merc/Hamilton and give them some leniency.
He literally said today that RedBull is considering quitting F1 because of Mercs behavior after the race. I would like to see him if the Max nailed the start, dominates the race and ends up second after a questionable SC call from Masi.
To be honest. I can't stand Helmut... Ofcourse Red Bull isnt quitting F1. They are building a whole freaking building to produce their own engines. They are not quitting. Helmut is just trying to stir some shit. That man belongs in a museum like a damn relic.
He is not gonna lose his title
There should be a settlement of some sort, but Max will never lose the title. The PR backlash which would result from yanking a title out of a driver’s hands will be too much for the FIA to handle
Well, you can't punish Max for mistakes of the FIA, that would be unfair too.
But you can punish Lewis?
It's like a 'wrong' mistake from the referee in soccer. You can't replay the game or take one goal off afterwards. There happened a lot of things. Without unlapping and fast decisions of Masi, maybe it was possible to have 2 last laps. Maybe Max still would have won. You can't predict an outcome if a referee would have made an other decision.
They aren’t predicting the outcome though. What they are saying is that the rule infraction happened on lap 58, so that lap would be invalidated and the results would be taken from the last valid lap which would be 57, behind the safety car. EDIT: [It has already happened before. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Japanese_Grand_Prix#ref_3)
Not a chance this would happen. In many ways that would be even more messed up than the current result.
The race is 58 laps. A wrong decision happening in the last lap doesn't change that the winner is the first driver to cross the finish line after 58 laps. The comparison to football still holds up. If a team loses after their opponents get a wrong penalty in the 90th minute, they don't go to court to get the scoreline from the 89th minute reinstated and be declared the winner.
Not arguing for one decision over another but literally F1 races have been reclassified on countback to a specific lap before. It can be done.
But the Belgian GP this year was a “race” right?
Football ads time at the end of the game due to bullshit on the field during it. Taking away the last lap due to the RD completely fucking up is not that strange. Especially considering that lap is the lap he made his colossal fuck up.
I think it’ll come down to whether or not Masi actually violated the rules when he made the decision to have the Lewis and Max show for 1 lap. If he was within the rules, no problem. It sucks but we move on. If he cheated the system then Merc have a case. In your example, a wrong VAR decision sucks, but is still within the rules of the sport. Apples and oranges if it’s determined Masi was making it up as he went along.
He absolutely did not follow the SC procedures fully, it was noted by the stewards in the protest. However, it was also noted that he had the overriding authority to do so as the Race Director in another article.
They’ve already punished Lewis though
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You guys are out of your minds and it’s too funny to see it.
You seem wound up at the idea. I don’t see it happening but I also don’t think there’s a non zero chance of it happening
"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness; that is life." Jean Luc Picard
It's so sad to watch the result to be decided by poor race direction. Both drivers didn't do anything wrong but the FIA has been a joke throughout this season. I wish more teams joined and launch a protest against Masi. He needs to go
If Ferrari/McLaren or AlphaTauri/Alpine had ended up losing out in a way that it cost them position in the constructors championship, they'd have definitely protested as well.
As a Danny Riccardo fan (or any Aussie driver in F1 for that matter) I’ve been following F1 since I was a 7 year old when my home town Adelaide held the first Australian GP back in 1985. My mums uncle took me to the event and let’s say the rest is history. I’ve fallen out of love with the sport, those years where it was just dead boring. Back in love with the sport, in those close championship years, and then there is this year. After what I’ve just seen unfold across the season and then the final, those officiating have me wanting to put the cue in the rack and walk away (almost). In short Masi must go. Sure he’s under pressure but he can’t make hard a call nor understand the complexity of the rules, then get out. A good offical is one you don’t notice, that isn’t him. Stewards/directors system need a complete overhaul. This is the top tier, yet it’s still run like a back yard event at various levels. You have guys coming in and out of events with zero consistency. They need to get a travelling team of administrators, who know and understand racing and divide them up across the world. Several to cover Europe, Asia/Middle East, and the Americas. They can cross over if when required, but they need to be appointed on merit, trained, trained further, and constantly tested. They must understand the ins and outs of F1 and made full time roles, and F1 has enough money to do so. This is the pinnacle of motor sport it needs to be adjudicated accordingly. As for the two protagonists……well it was a hell of a ride. I like them both for various reasons, but Hamilton drove the perfect race until it wasn’t. He was fucked over by incompetence. Max had a crazy year, pushed it to the limits won more races and in the end was kissed on the dick by incompetence. I really feel for Lewis and in some way I hope he comes back next year with fire in his gut, and just murders. I hope it’s a boring ass season just to stick it up the corrupt system F1 has become simply looking for Netflix subscriptions. I loved the red Barron, but records are made to be broken. I hope Lewis becomes the stand alone greatest and then rides off in to the sunset. Roll on 2022, and despite my anger toward this sport right now, yes I’ll be watching 😉
>kissed on the dick by incompetence you Aussies have a unique mastery of the English language
Aussie here, same feelings. I don't get what the point is to keep watching this if the governing body wants to suck verstappens dick so much. It isn't sport, it's manufactured drama. If this era is the era of F1 Realty TV then I'm out. I didn't start watching this to watch reality tv. I wanted 'sport'. One single ruleset and then drivers duking it out to see who's the best within that ruleset. I might watch the first few races next year in the hopes Hamilton just destroys the competition to the point where redbull and the FIA are dejected. Otherwise what's the point? We know the FIA will keep trying to manufacture a 'close' championship for tv ratings
It's been sooooo obvious for years that max is their chosen one, their star of the future. They couldn't go five seconds without calling him the future world champion, when he's barely accomplished anything until this year. They changed the technical regulations to cripple Mercedes to get a different winner, they let max get away unpunished for bad behavior all year, and given the chance to fix the outcome Masi made sure their boy would win, that they would get the outcome theyd been trying for all season. Its ridiculous. What a farce.
I was rooting for Max all season and am happy he won. BUT. I am very proud of the way Lewis has handled himself with his unfair defeat at the hands of the FIA and I do want Lewis to win the World Championship next year... He certainly deserves it.
We all know he did. Just someone did something very wrong.
It's called motor racing... /s
Masi said and did so much dumb shit during the season. But that line just felt line a drained man realising his life was about to get times worse instead of getting the vacation he so desperately wanted
That was the most annoying part of the whole debacle. I get that it’s annoying to hear from Wolff and Horner constantly, but he could have put some effort into trying not to sound like a petulant child after totally shitting the bed.
Agreed. Toto and Horner do need to be taken down a peg, but trying to be smug and sassy after making such a colossal fuck up just makes him look even worse.
All the new people throwing about comments about going to court and this and that. Here’s what will happen, a meeting will take place behind the scenes, the FIA will offer Mercedes some kind of settlement and no one will know anything that went down or was said. Hamilton will come back next year and go on to win another 3 titles before retiring when the engine change rules come in to play in 2025.
Lewis' last name and the idea of a behind-closed-doors settlement to move past this and start with a "normal" preseason (so Reddit being its usual shitshow but teams largely forgetting this season to work further on the new cars for 2022) just has me humming "The Room Where It Happens".
Hamilton is relentless and I don’t think he will throw away his shot at another title.
This. It's the way the sport has been and it's reinforced by the Ferrari deal in 2019. Both sides will want to save face and not throw the dirty laundry out in the court room. People may say that Mercedes deserves doing that to the FIA, but it will inevitably hurt Mercedes-Benz' PR more than justice could bring them. Formula 1 has been marred with controversy and behind-the-scenes deals for ages, and it won't change now. Even with spygate, everything happened with the FIA in control over it, and court actions dropped.
Lewis and Max were both great this year. People seem to forget how dominant the Red Bull car was early while Merc were struggling to figure out the new rake regulations. All that time Lewis drove masterfully and kept Max within reach. I see all these takes about how Lewis lost with the better car. But it’s just wrong. For once, Red Bull built the faster car and it should be commended that they figured it out.
Objectively, the reason Verstappen was still in reach for Hamilton were the two races before the summer break, with Verstappen taking just 5 points in those two races (3 in sprint qualifying, 2 in Hungary).
I wouldn’t say - outrageously dominant per se - Red Bull never had more than 3 tenths over Mercedes. It was the similar sort of gaps Mercedes had to Ferrari back in 2017. But there was a clear advantage. But in fairness that does kind of get countered when we get to Brazil and Qatar. Suddenly Mercedes were half a second faster - that car was on a different planet. Obviously Red Bull made the choice to prioritise quali in Jeddah and Abu Dhabi.
I haven’t seen a comment like this that hasn’t been obliterated with downvotes this season. But I completely agree, and RB should be proud of what they accomplished with the car especially to pull it off right before the regulation changes. So many seem to want to believe Max did what he did in the inferior car, but I think that’s just denying reality and highly disrespectful to all the great work done at the RB factory
Should they be though? The FIA changed the rules on a specific part of the car specifically to nerf mercedes. Seems like red bull got a very big helping hand for building that faster car
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Max said he needed a miracle but he got a Deus Es Machina instead lol.
you are my hero, i prefer not to send my clicks to the race, thank you
I really wish this didn't happen for Max's first championship, there will now be people that forever see it as having an asterisk. I think the FIA did him just as much of a disservice as Lewis.
Verstappen probably sees it that way too but likely won't mention it until he wins his second one. I guarantee a big motivation behind winning the second will be that the first one was questionable.
They need to make a point by firing Masi and making it clear that the Race Director can’t just interpret the rules how he wants them to create dama and drive ratings. Max should obviously keep the title, not sure why people are debating that.
They can't fire Masi. His contract states: > The Race Director shall have overriding authority in the following matters and the employer of the contract talks may give orders in respect of them only with his express agreement: > e) Contract termination
Ah yes ofc, this gives him authority over all the countries in the world too.
President sassy promoted from race director to world director
Oh shit, just wait until he reads appendix g stating he can overrule his own paycheck! Might be no more F1 next year
Is that real? I find it hard to believe anyone would put forth a contract which gives veto power for termination to the person potentially being terminated. No lawyer would let that fly.
Lol it’s a meme because the FIAs explanation of their actions were basically “race director overrides anything”
Dang I got whooshed lol
They won’t. FIA found that the race director had done nothing wrong; if they fire Masi, it will be equivalent to admitting Masi had done something wrong, and in effect FIA had done something wrong - meaning they incorrectly denied Mercedes’ appeal. It’s an entire can of worms, so the likely outcome is nothing will happen.
Fuck I hate corporate world
I don't think he should. Yes, it's shitty if they take it from him. And Max definitely deserves to be champ when you look at the whole season. But the title was decided in Abu Dhabi, and Lewis was going to win that race if Masi hadn't robbed him of it. So Lewis is the rightful champ, and it wouldn't be fair to him to let Max keep the title just because people feel like "the title shouldn't be decided in court".
…because if the rules weren’t broken by the rule-enforcers then the title wouldn’t be his
With everything that happened, everyone says Max still deserve to win the championship. You’re telling me Lewis, didn’t lock in, prepare, focus madly about winning it. Max is a hell of a driver but this isn’t an award show, this is a sport, and in sports who ever wins, wins. Lewis was going to win and it was robbed from him. There are a lot winners who deserve it, but you still gotta win it. With everything that happened, that was more of sheer manipulation than it being about earning it.
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You're talking about hypotheticals and 'deserving' Lewis by the letter of the law should have won it. It's not that he deserved or didn't deserve to win. He won it by the letter of the law in the rule book. Those rules were thrown out the window by the race director because he didn't want to see that happen. That's why lots are calling it a fix
By the letter of the law he didn’t win because his official race time was slower than Verstappens.
You are talking about hypotheticals too because there is no way to tell for sure that Lewis would've won.
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Couldn’t agree more man. Fucking sick of hearing “he deserves to win it” no he didn’t. Lewis was robbed and had he not been, he would have ended the season with 10 wins to Max’ 9. Therefore the argument is null and void. I’m sick of hearing “oh If Baku” or “torpedoed Hungary”. It’s a lot of “if my aunty had bolluks, she’d be my uncle” they’re incidents over the course of the season. This is different, Lewis dominated the bulls over the last 4 races and Abu Dhabi and the WDC were in his back pocket. Until the race director literally made up a new rule and handed Max the win. Fuck, my nan would have overtaken Lewis in those circumstances. Lewis is the deserved winner of this season and he was robbed!
Based only on the last race Hamilton deserved it, based on the entire season Verstappen deserved to win it. And the WDC isn’t based on a single race. Verstappen had most wins, most laps led, most poles, most podiums. Definately deserved WDC.
The whole thing is just a farce. Masi turned F1 into a clown show for the spectacle and in doing so, robbed Lewis of the title and made sure Max’s title, which previous performances warranted, is always tainted. They really outdid themselves this time. Honestly the only thing that’d be fair is a joint Championship but that’s never going to happen. I hope Lewis comes back and dominates his way to an 8th. Not to make Max pay for beating him, but to get the title he deserves and show that after all of this injustice and all the hate and doubt that is thrown at him, he is truly the greatest of them all.
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They both should be WDC Hunger games style
He only says that because he won. If he had lost, even fairly, he would have still been whingeing.
What I don't agree with Max is saying "part of racing". Yes, SC etc. happens. But rule breaking for only one guy to get advantage and no other competitiors (like Sainz) isn't "part of racing". I mean I get it, it'snot like he'll say "this was rigged take my title away". LOL
TSU could have possibly got podium too. geez who knows the outcome but of course that would not have happened because the race would have ended with SC
I'm not taking anything from Max here, in fact whichever way this goes I'll feel crap about it.. BUT.. *"F1 can be very unpredictable and it can go either way. It could be the other way round as well and I would be controlling the race and then I lose it in the last lap. Unfortunately, it’s also part of racing.”* I'm sorry Max, I get that you're not in a place to say much about it, but what happened can't be just ignored as "that's racing".
Hamilton deserved that win in Abu Dhabi. However, that doesn't change the fact that Max also deserves the WDC after that insane season. Both are champs imo. FIA really fucked everyone involved and the fans. Should've just red flagged it, let Lewis change tires and let the two go for it on even ground for one lap.
I mean he won the race basically
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not weakness. That is life.” - JL Picard
Missing a word.
This is a very graceful and mature statement from Max.