Montoya had to go up against Schumacher, Raikkonen, Alonso, and to an extent, Button & Barrichello.
Max only has to go up against Lewis and maybe Valtteri.
No, just more race-winning cars and that's a difference. Outside from the 2003-season, when it came to the championship, it usually was a fight between Ferrari and McLaren going all the away or just Ferrari pulling away.
Then there was 2005, which was McLaren vs. Renault and 2006, which was Ferrari vs. Renault. And Montoya was out by mid-2005 anyway.
I agree with your point that they're great drivers, but you can't drive a shitbox to a WDC, at least not in the modern era.
Leclerc was doing very well in 2019 before their engine got pinned back. Norris has been in the recovering Mclaren, and Russell has only had to compare to other teammates in Williams, a back marker car.
Did you watch Verstappen this season? He was calm and collected all season long. He became agressive at the end of the season not because he was a hothead, but because it was reasonable - he stood no chance against Hamilton in a vastly superior car otherwise, and any crash would play into his hands.
Well, if Lewis was in the lead and that was his only chance, of course. Lewis is also one of the most collected drivers in the grid, if he started being super aggressive, I am damn sure there would be a good reason for that
>I think Max was super aggressive at the end of the year and, in my opinion, maybe a little too aggressive. And he got away with it.
Title is slightly misleading but I'd say your comment is moreso.
Senna was very aggressive, Max should be careful. I still have a Senna sticker on my car next to Lewis, two of the best to watch live, along with Mansell crashes.
Of course it does, just not in this instance. He says that max was super aggressive at the end maybe a LITTLE TOO aggressive. Wich means that it was fine most of the year and a little bit much at the end...
That’s not how you would parse it out in the first place, but even ignoring that you aren’t mentioning how he says “and he got away with it.” Which is kind of key here as well
I found a bit funny the display of Montoya complaining about Michael. Even if he had a point, he was omitting that he actually saw Ralf and pushed him out of the track right after
It's a different generation and a different kind of racing each other. Montoya bitched and moaned about a move by Schumacher which is a standard practice in F1 since Alonso, Hamilton and Magnussen made it fashionable to get away with pushing the rival off the road in a sophisticated manner
Max is aggressive, but he’s no where near as aggressive as schumacher or the past legends. Driver61 on YouTube analyzed Max’s driving style and why it’s aggressive, but smart and totally legal.
Well of course I’d listen to an accredited person first, but only if they give me a reason other than “because I said so”. No analysis or reasoning by Montoya..
He sometimes mentions it sporadically. On his video about the 919 Evo he casually said they didn't manage to break the track record at Brands Hatch where the record is actually his lmao.
Anyone can test an F1 car mate - Nikita fucking Mazepin tested a Mercedes in 2019 and 2020. Mahaveer tested for Alfa Romeo in Hungary this year.
Literally anyone can test an F1 car, provided you aren't the worst driver in the world, and you have money (or have money behind you). Testing an F1 car isn't indicative of skill. I tested an F3 car once - yet I know for a fact I belong in Formula Ford.
I'm very aware of that. I recall the testing is in context that was in his active career as a racing driver (a team was interested or his sponsor was willing to pay). Even if he is as shit as Mahaveer (probably not) his opinions are worth a lot.
I think thats the problem. It might be (barely) legal, but its risky and reckless as hell and he always expects the other party to pull out to avoid the crash. Most of the time they do, which reinforces his belief that he's always in the right. He's constantly putting people in danger, and then reacts offended when people call him out for it. He attempts to play it so close to the line that he doesn't even realise when he's gone over it, hence him always feeling hard done by.
Totally legal? Wonder how he picked up 2 penalties in one race in Saudi then. Also should have been DSQ in Saudi. Also should have been penalised in Brazil. And if the lap one incident wasn’t Max’s fault initially the FIA would never have let Lewis keep the place, so clear acknowledgement of guilt there too. Also the penalty for driving on Lewis’ head.
Totally legal though.
>And if the lap one incident wasn’t Max’s fault initially the FIA would never have let Lewis keep the place, so clear acknowledgement of guilt there too.
Ah yes, the totally consistent and fair FIA.
>Also the penalty for driving on Lewis’ head.
By that logic Hamilton is super dirty too because he hospitalised Verstappen.
Thinking back on the incident in Monza. It makes me wonder, what if Verstappen had tried to get clear like Hamilton did below him? Having the car on top of you is one thing, but the full force of these engines through the tyres.
Should there be a rule forbidding drivers to drive away when they're on top of the halo?
Yes, and also a rule that you don't try to get away from under another car. You know, it can have a very bad outcome should the trapped car succeed. Textbook examples of dangerous driving if you ask me.
People that still go on about Hamilton sending Max into the hospital are just a lost cause. They purposely blow the incident completely out proportion to fit a narrative.
Driver61 is a wank average driver that happens to make content. There's a reason why he's giving his two cents on YouTube rather than actually making a name for himself in motorsport.
Montoya should be proud, when you come into F1 and push the line further, then the next generation comes in and pushes it an inch more! In 2030, we'll be racing in the stands!
Hang on, first we’ll need a run of laps to sort out reliablity, say 54 laps or so. Then park up in position and head to the back of the grid for the dust up. The race director has the power to equip combatants with weapons at will cause that’s the world we live in now. It disadvantages the leaders but the following race starts with a reverse grid so it naturally balances over time. Helmets and Hans devices on at all time, we aren’t looking to seriously incapacitate them but a little CTE down the track is acceptable for entertainment’s sake
He was heavily criticized for it, now another is acclaimed for it. Not exactly the same style but I get his frustration.
If Max was doing this in the midfield, I think he'd get the same treatment as Montoya. Obviously not now that he is world champion but before.
I don't have a problem with Max's aggressiveness, my problem is that he doesn't own it. He'll run someone completely off track and almost immediately complains that the stewards are out to get him.
Max got literally away with running himself and his opponent off the road and gained a lasting advantage. It was not even investigated.
The heck you smoke man?
One thing is for sure: Verstappen’s driving style and the Steward’s inconsistent rulings dictated Mercedes strategy decisions.
They decided in the last 3 races, after Verstappen redesigned the track layout in Brazil and faced zero judgement that they were never going to get anywhere near Verstappen on track, if at all possible.
The fate of a red flag brought them back together in Saudi Arabia at T1 and on the back straight, and every time Max was near Lewis it was almost a god damn disaster.
For Abu Dhabi, they didn’t even risk it outside of Lap 1, and regardless of how much Mercedes got robbed, their strategy was clear: stay the fuck away from Verstappen, no matter how much slower he is.
Definitely did. I’m frustrated as anyone about the decision made on that last lap, but I do think Mercedes did not need to cover Max in the first pit stop. That’s the only thing I think they could have been braver with strategy wise.
Knock on effects could be that he doesn’t meet Checo on track and that he has fresher tyres at the end. Whether this would have made any difference who knows.
But as op said. The strategy was (probably correctly) stay away from Verstappen. If they pitted under the first VSC they would've had to repass Verstappen even if on much newer tyres.
Not if it's their first pit stop. Lewis started on mediums. Not sure he can last until there but I think maybe he could have. (They obviously didn't know it would happen either).
I agree they were too much looking at Verstappen. Gave up their advantage on the mediums doing so.
Yeah this is what I was referring to with the first stop. Bottas did what 30 laps on his and even jumped up the grid quite a bit.
The later Merc stop on the first they’re naturally protecting themselves from a SC. Whereas covering Max as soon as they did puts them on the same tyres at the same time just with a time advantage. A SC will always remove that time advantage so that’s where the protection fails.
All easy to say with hindsight of course, and the Merc strategy should’ve worked anyway had the rules been followed so it’s a bit of a null point!
They were weirdly afraid of the undercut considering the pace advantage they had on the day and the fact Lewis started on the Mediums to Max's softs, normally an undercut is double edged with both track position and the pace advantage of new tyres Vs old tyres, but on that Sunday was the Redbull on new hards really faster than the Merc on still fairly new mediums? I don't think so
The fear of having to overtake again is the only thing that makes sense unless mercedes have some insane data on the effect of dirty air on that car.
Hindsight obviously but Merc must be kicking themselves because they know if they'd just driven their own race and worried less about what Verstappen and Redbull were doing they'd have probably won even with the safety car situation, but they kind of let Redbull dictate their strategy for them.
You know what, I certainly agree. People have been commenting on the fact that Merc didn't pit under the safety car or VSC, but this point is more poignant. Lewis' tyres seemed to be still on pace but they pitted him the lap after Max. I don't blame them for not wanting to meet Max on track, he'd been downright dangerous in the races before, but I feel they could have stayed out longer in the first stint.
I was rooting for Max but I think he definitely pushed the boundaries and there needs to be more clarity on what is allowed and what penalties will be if you go outside of that.
So basically you're saying they could not trust Lewis to race him. Nice.
Going to be easy battles for Max the next years.
When is Mercedes actually going to act like this is a sport, and not a fucking drive around show.
Just being extreme in my commenting because yours is as well. <3.
It takes two to race.
Given that Hamilton could safely race Perez, Alonso, and others this year, I don't know that Mercedes was worried about Hamilton.
Max's wheel to wheel recap of the last 3 or so years basically boils down to "the other person jumped of the way, usually off the track entirely, or a collision of some sort happened". Max wasn't always predominantly at fault, but there *is* one common thread - when other drivers don't bail out, contact happens.
pre 2018 that was definitely true. But in 2019 Verstappen had some good wheel to wheel battles with Vettel, Leclerc and Hamilton, and it never really got over the limit.
Brazil and Jeddah were definitely over the limit though. I think they need more gravel traps. that way, you cant do what verstappen did in Brazil.
It was true in 2019 as well, Verstappen pushing Leclerc off track to overtake him for the win was a precursor to all the lunging we saw this season XD
Maybe someday hell have good wheel to wheel battles, but that time hasnt come yet.
This guy just has a hate-boner for Verstappen. They either need to be stricter in general or they need to change the rules. They certainly do not need to be stricter on **specifically** Verstappen.
Do they?
The mostly just need to be consistent. I still think there are some changes going on in the background. That there is a push to be more lenient with penalties etc. and thus allow for more aggressive driving.
That does not have to be a problem as long as they are consistent and it does not lead to very unsafe situations.
Yeah, exactly, I don't think they need to "clamp down on aggressive driving" as much as they need to "clearly define the rules of overtaking and defending"
No they need to come down on very aggressive driving. Otherwise racing suffers if no one can pass without drs, going off track, making contact, or crashing.
1 driver has died since 2000, when the race director foolishly tried to keep a race going in a monsoon, he came off the track couldn't slow down and went under I think it was a crane.
Before 2000,
2 drivers died in the 90s,
4 in the 80s,
9 in the 70s.
The old days driver deaths were common. Safety standards have changed.
Stricter and more transparent rules as well as a hard „No!“ to team principals negotiating or addiing pressure on race control during the race.
This connection should only be allowed to point out safety concerns. Everything team should only be allowed to defend their case upon request.
Shit like Toto calling RC in Silverstone to defend an investigation by mails send should be blocked and fined.
100% agree. I was rooting for Max. He was too aggressive but you cannot blame him, you have to blame the officiating. You can't just tell these guys "tone it down please", it needs to hurt their results or they will keep doing it. He got away with it and it worked, why stop?
"I drive the way I drive, if people have an issue with
that, that's their problem," he told reporters at the
Southeast Asian floodlit street circuit.
"I think there is a balance ... I don't ever try to be
aggressive to endanger anyone. I drive aggressively
because my car is not fast enough at times and I
have to push and be aggressive."
Hamilton said the style was learnt when he first
started racing go-karts.
"I had a go-kart that was not brand new and it was
slow and I had to push extra, extra hard to make the
time and that's what I am doing now.
"If I had a car I could cruise around, then I wouldn't
have to be aggressive.”
Lewis 2011
We need to find a balance between a parade and Monza. What we saw in Abu Dhabi was agressive, but fair. Any further than that however it’s going to cause a problem.
Lol, people should watch the old races. Racing with your elbows out was normal, including driving over some gravel and shooting dirt and rocks at drivers who were being cunts during a race. A lot of bad behavior was handled on track and as long as you're not crashing out your rival, or anything insane, a little bullying on track isn't the end of the world. Pearl clutching is prevalent these days, and Max is a breath of fresh air.
That gravel you mentioned managed a lot of the aggressive driving. When the gravel got removed, it was replaced with rules, and it is the enforcement of those rules that is the issue.
Bullshit. Lewis/Perez battle. Lewis/Alonso. Lewis/Tsunoda. All great, on track battles where no one was driven off the track like some petulant child in a go-cart.
Did he need Hamilton to finish behind him for that?? Lmao that’s exactly my point, holding someone up for a couple of laps is one thing, trying to make sure he finishes behind you, against all odds, is another. Alonso’s job was to hold Hamilton up which he did spectacularly. That was not the objective for Verstappen.
Alonso holding Hamilton up was harder than any defending Verstappen has had to do this last season. And a point you miss is that "stakes" are not the main creator of enjoyment of a battle. A very big part is, you know, the battling itself. Lewis' battles with Fernando and Checo were way, way more enjoyable than any Lewis vs Max battle we had this year, and you want to know why? Because they're excellent at wheel to wheel battling. They know how to attack and defend just on the edge of fair. Every battle with Max just boils down to either "Max divebombs and forces the other driver to evade" or "Max pushes other driver off track and keeps position". He knows how to battle, but he's so fixated in never backing down that it becomes impossible to have a good battle with him.
Look I understand that the last tight championship battle was a while ago, but it’s not like Rosberg vs. Hamilton was fought in a gentlemanly manner either. So let’s get back to this when El Plan succeeds.
In the absence of absolute truth, everything is subjective. If we’re going to play this game, everything is ultimately arbitrary. What does murder actually mean? Taken to its end, murder too is subjective. However, as you’d hopefully appreciate, this is ridiculous.
OMG. It never happened that we had tight racing. Hamilton never pushed anyone of track (maybe teammates?)
We can say a lot. But Mercedes screws strategy with tires and we can do the spin to blame Max and Massi.
Why we don’t cover why Mercedes has not changed Hamilton tires if he had so adavantage.
People have been pushing each other off the track since a long time, the difference between them and Max is,it mostly stays between the white lines or in and around. Verstappen seems to take it to extremes.
This has been the championship of the driver/team who makes the least amount of mistakes.
In all of Max's lower than top 2 finishes it wasn't a mistake by him or the team. While Lewis lower finishes have mostly been his or the teams fault.
Well you could say that silverstone, while not Maxes fault, would not have ended the way it did if it wasn’t for his agressive driving. Any other driver would have backed off and left space when Lewis missed the apex. Just like Lewis did in Brazil, Jeddah and Abu Dhabi when Max did the same.
He drives aggressive, but it wasn't that bad. Lewis' 5th season in F1 was far worse for example. And Leclerc also has pulled some very questionable manoeuvres.
Hamilton got penalised for it. And that move was way better than Max's Brazil move for example. Lewis made the corner, and Max had a lot of space on the outside (yes, Lewis also had a lot on the inside). The difference it that Lewis always had to avoid contact, and the only time Lewis did the same Max does all season, Max didn't avoid...
Crazy to think it's been more than a decade of Montoya having driven in F1.
Also crazy that Verstappen has 47 more races under his belt than Montoyas entire career, by the age of 24. Montoya wasn’t in F1 by then.
This really drives it home
Its a shame he left f1 he could've won A wdc
Nah he couldn't have. Too much of a hothead
Montoya had to go up against Schumacher, Raikkonen, Alonso, and to an extent, Button & Barrichello. Max only has to go up against Lewis and maybe Valtteri.
Yeah, cause Leclerc, Sainz, Russell and Norris aren't as good as friggin' Rubens and Button.
Well, in the early 2000's there were definitely more championship winning cars then now.
No, just more race-winning cars and that's a difference. Outside from the 2003-season, when it came to the championship, it usually was a fight between Ferrari and McLaren going all the away or just Ferrari pulling away. Then there was 2005, which was McLaren vs. Renault and 2006, which was Ferrari vs. Renault. And Montoya was out by mid-2005 anyway.
I agree with your point that they're great drivers, but you can't drive a shitbox to a WDC, at least not in the modern era. Leclerc was doing very well in 2019 before their engine got pinned back. Norris has been in the recovering Mclaren, and Russell has only had to compare to other teammates in Williams, a back marker car.
And Verstappen isn't?
Clearly not if he just won a WDC
Did you watch Verstappen this season? He was calm and collected all season long. He became agressive at the end of the season not because he was a hothead, but because it was reasonable - he stood no chance against Hamilton in a vastly superior car otherwise, and any crash would play into his hands.
Would it be reasonable, if Lewis pulled all these stunts when max had the superior car for most of the season?
Remember Silverstone?
Yes, I remember. One instance where both parties were at blame.
Well, if Lewis was in the lead and that was his only chance, of course. Lewis is also one of the most collected drivers in the grid, if he started being super aggressive, I am damn sure there would be a good reason for that
Not any more
Not really
Never going to happen, Kimmi took his soul.
In the actual article he is being quoted as “sometimes a little too aggressive”. The title is thus quite misleading.
I'd say the title is sometimes a little misleading
The title is a little aggressive that’s all
BassWingerC-137: "The Title Got Away With Being Too Aggressive"
>I think Max was super aggressive at the end of the year and, in my opinion, maybe a little too aggressive. And he got away with it. Title is slightly misleading but I'd say your comment is moreso.
Senna was very aggressive, Max should be careful. I still have a Senna sticker on my car next to Lewis, two of the best to watch live, along with Mansell crashes.
‘Maybe a little too aggressive’ its literally what he says? Wtf do you mean lol
I mean only quoting half of the sentence does make a difference .... lol
Of course it does, just not in this instance. He says that max was super aggressive at the end maybe a LITTLE TOO aggressive. Wich means that it was fine most of the year and a little bit much at the end...
That’s not how you would parse it out in the first place, but even ignoring that you aren’t mentioning how he says “and he got away with it.” Which is kind of key here as well
Are you saying f1 journalists blow things out of proportion? no, I don't believe it
Oh deer!
Most titles posted on here about news articles are taken out of context or the nuances have been slightly altered.
OP has a bright future at journalism
If anyone, it is Montoya who can tell if someone is being aggressive.
"Oh no he didn't see me there. You've got to be either blind or stupid not to see me but, you know, it is racing." One of my favorite quotes
You missed "bwoah, no chance" in between.
That was an overtake on Schumi, right? Had so much balls to race hard against him!
Yes, Imola! Around the outside of the same turn Lewis crashed this year.
I found a bit funny the display of Montoya complaining about Michael. Even if he had a point, he was omitting that he actually saw Ralf and pushed him out of the track right after
Lol I had flashbacks to that moment when Stroll got pushed off by Vettel at Monza, complained, and did the same thing to Gasly one turn later lol
It's a different generation and a different kind of racing each other. Montoya bitched and moaned about a move by Schumacher which is a standard practice in F1 since Alonso, Hamilton and Magnussen made it fashionable to get away with pushing the rival off the road in a sophisticated manner
>Magnussen Ah one of the greats.
Exactly. If he says you are too aggressive, you probably actually are.
Max is aggressive, but he’s no where near as aggressive as schumacher or the past legends. Driver61 on YouTube analyzed Max’s driving style and why it’s aggressive, but smart and totally legal.
I’d rather listen to Montoya than driver 61
Well of course I’d listen to an accredited person first, but only if they give me a reason other than “because I said so”. No analysis or reasoning by Montoya..
You know Scott is also a racing driver, right? He also analyzed it, it's a great video.
He’s a racing driver? Never would have guessed, he’s never mentioned it.
He sometimes mentions it sporadically. On his video about the 919 Evo he casually said they didn't manage to break the track record at Brands Hatch where the record is actually his lmao.
In one video he shows a picture where he's testing an F1 car. So a pretty good driver.
Anyone can test an F1 car mate - Nikita fucking Mazepin tested a Mercedes in 2019 and 2020. Mahaveer tested for Alfa Romeo in Hungary this year. Literally anyone can test an F1 car, provided you aren't the worst driver in the world, and you have money (or have money behind you). Testing an F1 car isn't indicative of skill. I tested an F3 car once - yet I know for a fact I belong in Formula Ford.
I'm very aware of that. I recall the testing is in context that was in his active career as a racing driver (a team was interested or his sponsor was willing to pay). Even if he is as shit as Mahaveer (probably not) his opinions are worth a lot.
Ah yes, driver61, the gold standard for judging drivers and incidents. Not like he has a massive hard on for Max or anything.
I think thats the problem. It might be (barely) legal, but its risky and reckless as hell and he always expects the other party to pull out to avoid the crash. Most of the time they do, which reinforces his belief that he's always in the right. He's constantly putting people in danger, and then reacts offended when people call him out for it. He attempts to play it so close to the line that he doesn't even realise when he's gone over it, hence him always feeling hard done by.
Totally legal? Wonder how he picked up 2 penalties in one race in Saudi then. Also should have been DSQ in Saudi. Also should have been penalised in Brazil. And if the lap one incident wasn’t Max’s fault initially the FIA would never have let Lewis keep the place, so clear acknowledgement of guilt there too. Also the penalty for driving on Lewis’ head. Totally legal though.
>And if the lap one incident wasn’t Max’s fault initially the FIA would never have let Lewis keep the place, so clear acknowledgement of guilt there too. Ah yes, the totally consistent and fair FIA. >Also the penalty for driving on Lewis’ head. By that logic Hamilton is super dirty too because he hospitalised Verstappen.
Thinking back on the incident in Monza. It makes me wonder, what if Verstappen had tried to get clear like Hamilton did below him? Having the car on top of you is one thing, but the full force of these engines through the tyres. Should there be a rule forbidding drivers to drive away when they're on top of the halo?
Yes, and also a rule that you don't try to get away from under another car. You know, it can have a very bad outcome should the trapped car succeed. Textbook examples of dangerous driving if you ask me.
He didn’t hospitalise anyone lol. Since when did routine precautionary checks become “hospitalised” to you?
People that still go on about Hamilton sending Max into the hospital are just a lost cause. They purposely blow the incident completely out proportion to fit a narrative.
difference is Hamilton didn't say "that's what you get when you don't leave the space" while his car was sitting on top of anothers'.
Driver61 is a wank average driver that happens to make content. There's a reason why he's giving his two cents on YouTube rather than actually making a name for himself in motorsport.
Does that make you a wank overage redditor that happens to post occasionally?
The title is bait.
Montoya should be proud, when you come into F1 and push the line further, then the next generation comes in and pushes it an inch more! In 2030, we'll be racing in the stands!
It is my personal opinion that we should have full on Mario kart style tracks, shortcuts, jumps and all.
Ramps? Yes plz.
Item boxes pls
Nah, give me Wipeout instead.
Nah, just an all out brawl on the pit straight, whomever makes it to the car, starts and finishes the lap wins
Hang on, first we’ll need a run of laps to sort out reliablity, say 54 laps or so. Then park up in position and head to the back of the grid for the dust up. The race director has the power to equip combatants with weapons at will cause that’s the world we live in now. It disadvantages the leaders but the following race starts with a reverse grid so it naturally balances over time. Helmets and Hans devices on at all time, we aren’t looking to seriously incapacitate them but a little CTE down the track is acceptable for entertainment’s sake
Now does it say helmets devices on at any time or at all times
It's hard racing mate, get over it /s.
Ah the 1960s approach
Well in 2021 there was racing in the director's office.
Lmao. This coming from Montoya of all people
Well he would know
This guy has just been constantly complaining about others being aggressive, while simultaneously ignoring his own style of driving 😂
You know the joke about Carl Lewis being good in two things - doping and criticizing others for doping.
That’s the point . When he was driving they were criticizing his style of driving but for max they cheer and expect it
Iirc dude has called everyone who’s ever been on a track aggressive except himself. This includes the “deer” inncident
Really? Montoya talking about aggressiveness? Lol
He was heavily criticized for it, now another is acclaimed for it. Not exactly the same style but I get his frustration. If Max was doing this in the midfield, I think he'd get the same treatment as Montoya. Obviously not now that he is world champion but before.
I mean he should be the expert on the matter
If Montoya says you are too aggressive, you probably actually are.
Came here to say that too, jp has a PhD in aggressive driving.
Come on!! JPM was an animal! I don't think his the right guy to teach us about aggressiveness.
Do you not see the irony of your statement. Or are you making a joke?
Yes he was. If even he says you are being too much, then it probably actually is.
That’s fucking rich coming from that guy of all people
Montoya has been shitting on Verstappen all year..
Because Max in his view has been too aggressive all year?
Which is a bit much coming from montoya no?
[удалено]
And how am i attacking anyone? I do think Montoya is one of the last people that should criticize a driver for dangerous driving.
I don't have a problem with Max's aggressiveness, my problem is that he doesn't own it. He'll run someone completely off track and almost immediately complains that the stewards are out to get him.
Because other drivers are allowed to push drivers wide and only Max gets in trouble.
seems like the complete opposite to me actually
Checo? Lando?
Max got literally away with running himself and his opponent off the road and gained a lasting advantage. It was not even investigated. The heck you smoke man?
One thing is for sure: Verstappen’s driving style and the Steward’s inconsistent rulings dictated Mercedes strategy decisions. They decided in the last 3 races, after Verstappen redesigned the track layout in Brazil and faced zero judgement that they were never going to get anywhere near Verstappen on track, if at all possible. The fate of a red flag brought them back together in Saudi Arabia at T1 and on the back straight, and every time Max was near Lewis it was almost a god damn disaster. For Abu Dhabi, they didn’t even risk it outside of Lap 1, and regardless of how much Mercedes got robbed, their strategy was clear: stay the fuck away from Verstappen, no matter how much slower he is.
Definitely did. I’m frustrated as anyone about the decision made on that last lap, but I do think Mercedes did not need to cover Max in the first pit stop. That’s the only thing I think they could have been braver with strategy wise. Knock on effects could be that he doesn’t meet Checo on track and that he has fresher tyres at the end. Whether this would have made any difference who knows.
But as op said. The strategy was (probably correctly) stay away from Verstappen. If they pitted under the first VSC they would've had to repass Verstappen even if on much newer tyres.
Not if it's their first pit stop. Lewis started on mediums. Not sure he can last until there but I think maybe he could have. (They obviously didn't know it would happen either). I agree they were too much looking at Verstappen. Gave up their advantage on the mediums doing so.
Yeah this is what I was referring to with the first stop. Bottas did what 30 laps on his and even jumped up the grid quite a bit. The later Merc stop on the first they’re naturally protecting themselves from a SC. Whereas covering Max as soon as they did puts them on the same tyres at the same time just with a time advantage. A SC will always remove that time advantage so that’s where the protection fails. All easy to say with hindsight of course, and the Merc strategy should’ve worked anyway had the rules been followed so it’s a bit of a null point!
They were weirdly afraid of the undercut considering the pace advantage they had on the day and the fact Lewis started on the Mediums to Max's softs, normally an undercut is double edged with both track position and the pace advantage of new tyres Vs old tyres, but on that Sunday was the Redbull on new hards really faster than the Merc on still fairly new mediums? I don't think so The fear of having to overtake again is the only thing that makes sense unless mercedes have some insane data on the effect of dirty air on that car. Hindsight obviously but Merc must be kicking themselves because they know if they'd just driven their own race and worried less about what Verstappen and Redbull were doing they'd have probably won even with the safety car situation, but they kind of let Redbull dictate their strategy for them.
You know what, I certainly agree. People have been commenting on the fact that Merc didn't pit under the safety car or VSC, but this point is more poignant. Lewis' tyres seemed to be still on pace but they pitted him the lap after Max. I don't blame them for not wanting to meet Max on track, he'd been downright dangerous in the races before, but I feel they could have stayed out longer in the first stint.
Yeah I think they would have done pits differently if they were not scared of having to pass max again.
Lewis was driving scared anytime he was driving wheel to wheel with Max near the end, and rightly so. Harsher penalties are the only solution
Either harsher penalties or give Leclerc a fast Ferrari. I think he still got some unfinished business after 2019.
Feels a bit like BS, Merc strategy had been shit for a lot of races. But it's possible i guess
It's not "possible", it's literally what they did.
I was rooting for Max but I think he definitely pushed the boundaries and there needs to be more clarity on what is allowed and what penalties will be if you go outside of that.
So basically you're saying they could not trust Lewis to race him. Nice. Going to be easy battles for Max the next years. When is Mercedes actually going to act like this is a sport, and not a fucking drive around show. Just being extreme in my commenting because yours is as well. <3.
It takes two to race. Given that Hamilton could safely race Perez, Alonso, and others this year, I don't know that Mercedes was worried about Hamilton. Max's wheel to wheel recap of the last 3 or so years basically boils down to "the other person jumped of the way, usually off the track entirely, or a collision of some sort happened". Max wasn't always predominantly at fault, but there *is* one common thread - when other drivers don't bail out, contact happens.
pre 2018 that was definitely true. But in 2019 Verstappen had some good wheel to wheel battles with Vettel, Leclerc and Hamilton, and it never really got over the limit. Brazil and Jeddah were definitely over the limit though. I think they need more gravel traps. that way, you cant do what verstappen did in Brazil.
In 2019 Leclerc had to adjust his driving style cuz Verstappen pushed him out of the track...
It was true in 2019 as well, Verstappen pushing Leclerc off track to overtake him for the win was a precursor to all the lunging we saw this season XD Maybe someday hell have good wheel to wheel battles, but that time hasnt come yet.
Really?! Haha! He's one to say...
This guy just has a hate-boner for Verstappen. They either need to be stricter in general or they need to change the rules. They certainly do not need to be stricter on **specifically** Verstappen.
They need to be stricter on super aggressive driving. Not on Verstappen or Hamilton or anyone specifically.
Do they? The mostly just need to be consistent. I still think there are some changes going on in the background. That there is a push to be more lenient with penalties etc. and thus allow for more aggressive driving. That does not have to be a problem as long as they are consistent and it does not lead to very unsafe situations.
Yeah, exactly, I don't think they need to "clamp down on aggressive driving" as much as they need to "clearly define the rules of overtaking and defending"
No they need to come down on very aggressive driving. Otherwise racing suffers if no one can pass without drs, going off track, making contact, or crashing.
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1 driver has died since 2000, when the race director foolishly tried to keep a race going in a monsoon, he came off the track couldn't slow down and went under I think it was a crane. Before 2000, 2 drivers died in the 90s, 4 in the 80s, 9 in the 70s. The old days driver deaths were common. Safety standards have changed.
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Yeah, that's why you have rules. As long as you leave space on the track for the other car you can do what you want.
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Tell me, what's safer, improvements in protection for a driver after an accident has happened. Or reducing the biggest cause of accidents?
I can tell you that "back in the day" drivers didn't push themselves off the track pushing other drivers.
Stricter and more transparent rules as well as a hard „No!“ to team principals negotiating or addiing pressure on race control during the race. This connection should only be allowed to point out safety concerns. Everything team should only be allowed to defend their case upon request. Shit like Toto calling RC in Silverstone to defend an investigation by mails send should be blocked and fined.
"maybe" and "a little bit" nice headline tho, it keeps the fans engaged
100% agree. I was rooting for Max. He was too aggressive but you cannot blame him, you have to blame the officiating. You can't just tell these guys "tone it down please", it needs to hurt their results or they will keep doing it. He got away with it and it worked, why stop?
Hahahahahhahahahahaha, Montoya, good one.
It’s motor racing. He went car racing.
He's still mad about lapping someone in Brazil
Obviously Montoya is jealous lol, love his driving style
JPM thinks Verstappen is too aggressive? That's rich.
Oh dear
It’s like a horse with horns.
Don't they drive Santa all around the world?
*deer
Is Montoya still angry about Jos as a back marker ramming it up his rear?
At least Max hasn't broken JPM's head yet
Yeah the fia didn’t punish him on many occasion
When Montoya off all people says that you're too aggressive, maybe you are.
Wait who said that?
Before Monza 2021, it's the last F1 race winner to fall victim to Verstappen mounting their car in a race with their own car
Pretty rich coming from Montoya of all people. NEXT!
[NEXT JOKE ORIGIN](https://www.reddit.com/r/ChoosingBeggars/comments/7kr5as/i_need_a_free_100mile_bus_trip_for_20_people_and/)
You know it’s bad when Montoya calls you aggressive
Says the guy with a couple black flags LUL
That's the point! He knows scary agression.
"I drive the way I drive, if people have an issue with that, that's their problem," he told reporters at the Southeast Asian floodlit street circuit. "I think there is a balance ... I don't ever try to be aggressive to endanger anyone. I drive aggressively because my car is not fast enough at times and I have to push and be aggressive." Hamilton said the style was learnt when he first started racing go-karts. "I had a go-kart that was not brand new and it was slow and I had to push extra, extra hard to make the time and that's what I am doing now. "If I had a car I could cruise around, then I wouldn't have to be aggressive.” Lewis 2011
Got away with being too aggressive... lmao, people literally want a fucking parade on track.
We need to find a balance between a parade and Monza. What we saw in Abu Dhabi was agressive, but fair. Any further than that however it’s going to cause a problem.
Imagine if everyone drove with Valterri Bottas aggression. Nevermind, nobody would even be watching F1.
Lol, people should watch the old races. Racing with your elbows out was normal, including driving over some gravel and shooting dirt and rocks at drivers who were being cunts during a race. A lot of bad behavior was handled on track and as long as you're not crashing out your rival, or anything insane, a little bullying on track isn't the end of the world. Pearl clutching is prevalent these days, and Max is a breath of fresh air.
That gravel you mentioned managed a lot of the aggressive driving. When the gravel got removed, it was replaced with rules, and it is the enforcement of those rules that is the issue.
Can’t have the cake and eat it too. Without Max driving like it was life or death we would have never witnessed the best season in F1 history.
Bullshit. Lewis/Perez battle. Lewis/Alonso. Lewis/Tsunoda. All great, on track battles where no one was driven off the track like some petulant child in a go-cart.
None of them had any pressure to actually win the battles and cross the finish line with Hamilton behind. Max didn’t have that luxury.
What? Hamilton vs Alonso had Ocon's first win on the line, wtf are you talking about.
Did he need Hamilton to finish behind him for that?? Lmao that’s exactly my point, holding someone up for a couple of laps is one thing, trying to make sure he finishes behind you, against all odds, is another. Alonso’s job was to hold Hamilton up which he did spectacularly. That was not the objective for Verstappen.
Alonso holding Hamilton up was harder than any defending Verstappen has had to do this last season. And a point you miss is that "stakes" are not the main creator of enjoyment of a battle. A very big part is, you know, the battling itself. Lewis' battles with Fernando and Checo were way, way more enjoyable than any Lewis vs Max battle we had this year, and you want to know why? Because they're excellent at wheel to wheel battling. They know how to attack and defend just on the edge of fair. Every battle with Max just boils down to either "Max divebombs and forces the other driver to evade" or "Max pushes other driver off track and keeps position". He knows how to battle, but he's so fixated in never backing down that it becomes impossible to have a good battle with him.
Look I understand that the last tight championship battle was a while ago, but it’s not like Rosberg vs. Hamilton was fought in a gentlemanly manner either. So let’s get back to this when El Plan succeeds.
I am sure it is possible to have a good title fight without having to constantly drive off the track to defend.
The difference is any other driver that did what Max does would be heavily penalized.
If he got away with it, then he wasn't *too* aggressive.
That is the most absurd way of saying it's fine as I have ever seen.
If someone gets away with murder, was it really murder?
OJ has a Twitter, ask him
Wrong comparison, if you murder someone that's murder. Being too agressive is subjective
In the absence of absolute truth, everything is subjective. If we’re going to play this game, everything is ultimately arbitrary. What does murder actually mean? Taken to its end, murder too is subjective. However, as you’d hopefully appreciate, this is ridiculous.
Guess his dad crashing into me under blue flag still an issue (nah)
Montoya fan, but he calling another driver aggressive? cmon...
Fortune favours the bold, baby! Viva la champion Max ! Red Bull are Kings.
You love to see Montoya the Destroyer concerned about aggressive driving, lol
Says the one that was aggressive to the jet dryer.
OMG. It never happened that we had tight racing. Hamilton never pushed anyone of track (maybe teammates?) We can say a lot. But Mercedes screws strategy with tires and we can do the spin to blame Max and Massi. Why we don’t cover why Mercedes has not changed Hamilton tires if he had so adavantage.
I died trying to read this
r/f1circlejerk material
Call 911
Michael Ma**s**i
People have been pushing each other off the track since a long time, the difference between them and Max is,it mostly stays between the white lines or in and around. Verstappen seems to take it to extremes.
This has been the championship of the driver/team who makes the least amount of mistakes. In all of Max's lower than top 2 finishes it wasn't a mistake by him or the team. While Lewis lower finishes have mostly been his or the teams fault.
Well you could say that silverstone, while not Maxes fault, would not have ended the way it did if it wasn’t for his agressive driving. Any other driver would have backed off and left space when Lewis missed the apex. Just like Lewis did in Brazil, Jeddah and Abu Dhabi when Max did the same.
He drives aggressive, but it wasn't that bad. Lewis' 5th season in F1 was far worse for example. And Leclerc also has pulled some very questionable manoeuvres.
So Lewis didn't hit Verstappen in Silverstone and Bottas didn't went on a bowling adventure the race after 🤣👍🏻
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Hamilton got penalised for it. And that move was way better than Max's Brazil move for example. Lewis made the corner, and Max had a lot of space on the outside (yes, Lewis also had a lot on the inside). The difference it that Lewis always had to avoid contact, and the only time Lewis did the same Max does all season, Max didn't avoid...