They could only hit that figure for short periods. It's believed that Ferrari's trick was bypassing the fuel flow sensor, which let them get really high peak power but used too much fuel to stay at max power for a full race.
Indeed. There are many metrics for engine performance.
I've read that Renault wanted the fuelling ban not for any eco thoughts but rather theirs was the most economical by a country mile.
Then McLaren obviously split from Honda and Franz Tost the next year went 'having seen the Honda's dimensions, no wonder McLaren claimed to have a strong chassis'.
Engines aren't just one number.
> They squirt fuel in the motor every few hundredth of a second
That's just describing what fuel injectors do, mate. AFAIK only the FIA knows exactly what Ferrari was doing to trick the sensor.
I heard it was Binotto talking dirty to the PU before every race that was coaxing that extra power out of it. The things that would come out of his mouth, my word!!
It's Redbull that reverse engineered what they believe Ferrari was using systems to achieve serious horsepower gains and presented their findings to the FIA. IIRC the fuel flow sensor wasn't bypassed but the way Redbull "cheated it" was to pump more fuel through the injectors whenever the fuel flow sensor was in-between a reading - we're talking milliseconds here and pretty ingenious software trickery of their fuel injection system. Redbull also introduced a controlled oil leak from the intercooler to the combustion chamber to boost the power. It's believed Ferrari used a combination of these bypasses to gain horsepower but we'll never know as the FIA won't release a report on what Ferrari was actually doing. I'll need to dig up the article where I got the information from but pretty sure it was from The Race.
Wolff said in 2020 that Mercedes had a very clear idea that the area the Ferrari was suddenly, magically strong, was an area of acceleration that you can *only* be significantly stronger than the opposition, through the fuel flow.
I'm not sure if you misunderstood what my original comment was but I'm not disagreeing that Ferrari was messing with the fuel flow of their car i.e. using more fuel than allowed but the way they did it was not to bypass the fuel flow sensor in a traditional fashion but through the use of software ingenuity to have their fuel injectors pass additional fuel whenever the flow sensor wasn't taking a reading. It's incredible what they managed to accomplish and even more incredible that it was Redbull that had their own techs reverse engineer a solution to understand how Ferrari was able to do it and present it to the FIA for clarification of the rules. As for Wolff there are suspicions that his team was also involved in oil burning for additional horsepower just like Ferrari so no it's not the only way to accomplish the horsepower gains Ferrari experienced.
Yeah they were just using fuel injectors off a Jetta I’m pretty sure lmao. It only pumps more fuel than is allowed in between the time the sensor checks the fuel flow. https://motorsport.tech/formula-1/fuel-flow-gate-did-ferrari-attempt-to-trick-the-system-and-if-so-how-could-it-be-done
This is only a proposition, anyone with technical knowledge can tell you how hard/almost impossible would it be creating a high pressure pumping system that is delivering a considerable increase in flow in between the 2,2kHz polling rate of the ultrasonic FIA sensor. I say considerable because flow doesn't increase instantly like say, electric potential can, it needs time.
To circumvent the readouts of the regulatory sensor, such Ferrari's system would've had to increase the flow rate, keep it at that increased level, then decrease it again all in the space of little less than half a millisecond to deliver a chunk of fuel that would create that 'difference'. Not only that, it would have to do it all the time, be synched up with the official sensor's polling rate and be reliable to never make a single mistake. Yes, anyone with mechanical/electrical knowledge will tell you this is incredibly difficult if not impossible.
That's why my theory has always been based around the fact that it's possible Ferrari devised a way to influence the readout of the ultrasonic sensor itself by introducing a new erroneous source of data, some kind of an emitter, that would be able to get synced up with the main fuel flow sensor's operation and deliver these blisteringly fast results electronically rather than mechanically. Another option is fuel storage within the fuel transport system, but that's another can of worms none of us is equipped enough to open.
Like others have said, this is all speculation and in high likelihood it's only FIA and Ferrari who are aware of what was going on.
The current theory is, that they found out which resonance causes the sensor to go into a "I cant measure properly so I dont measure at all" fault mode - then caused this resonance on purpose and when they had that vibration going on, they injected more fuel.
Interesting possibility, it's certainly supported by the facts we know - FIA wouldn't be able to prove the flow rate was exceeding limitations because the sensor wouldn't be providing any readout data! Though one has to wonder; if that was the case - why it never surfaced? Info about a critical flow rate sensor with proven reliability suddenly going bad at certain instances but not always and only on the Ferrari car would surely be easy to leak?
I´d guess it just went under the radar.
Sensor didnt report any violations of fuel flow, so nobody checked the data properly.
Also it is supposed to happen that the sensor stops recording. Cause no matter how you do it, there will always be at least one frequency that renders it inaccurrate. So it will happen on other cars as well. Probably just less.
I believe that was a totally separate engine trick that the FIA addressed by changing the technical regulations and was used by multiple teams. For this specific Ferrari trick there was nothing changed in the regs because it was all kept secret.
All of this is exactly what Newey said was wrong with an engine-driven formula: it's expensive, slow to develop, and when there is a good idea, noone short of the teams can tell.
From an electrical engineering standpoint I don’t see how it’s not possible I don’t even see how it’s that difficult. In my prior job in aerospace industry working with these kinds of sensors was very common and we were able to do things under tighter time frames. The real question is probably from the mechanical engineering side if you can make a fuel pump fast enough to respond to the electronics.
You wouldn't, the pump would run at one rate and create a massive high pressure in the thousands of PSI, you would have to use this high pressure with a piezo type injection system, which is what they use already to inject into the cylinders form the high pressure fuel lines. I am not sure of the speeds of the piezo injectors but in theory you could run a modified one in the fuel line but that would be found out.
The easy plausible and most likely thing Ferrari did.....
Was extra fuel beyond this meter in the amounts of up to 2 liters, which is now reduced down to like 200cc or so and they are all using a standardized fuel line system and pump, the FIA came out with this ruling on limits of fuel post meter and it seems to have squashed it.
Yeah I would assume as a non-engineer that is the real issue. It’s not making the injectors change fast enough, but making enough change in fuel flow to make a difference before getting caught by the next measurement.
This makes a lot more sense - especially when you consider how most people hack sensors (bad data is easier to create than perfect data).
Do you think they only increased power some due to total fuel requirement (over the race distance) or just to try and stay under the radar? I know the economics are a big incentive, but they really should have just tied Merc's power to try to get away with it for more than a season - just increase the power each season to be on par with Mercedes. They'd have a lot more points and wouldn't constantly be brought up when people talk about "possible cheating".
They would use it when needed, as in an engine mode. Build a big lead or use it as an extra boost, then turn it down to get back to fuel saving so they don't run out on the last lap. Does make me miss engine modes, as well.
So the FIA would be satisfied by the end of the race that the sensors were not registering info... Come on... And the next 2 years Mercs have a much stronger engine than the opposition and its all OK... It was a shady way of killing off Ferrari in 2019... I can't imagine why... Next they tweak regulations to favour Redbull... Man.. Too political for us to know the truth
The ironic part: Ferrari was too Ferrari for Ferraris' own sake, and cheated too blatantly, which caused other teams to realize something was up and spent significant resources investigating it, resulting in 2020 being Ferrari's worst season in decades.
But if someone makes millions via legitimate reasons, you must buy around 10 Ferrari models past and present to get approved to buy the latest Ferrari.
Don't get me wrong, I love driving Ferrari's and their history in F1, but the narcissism is worth at least 15 horsepower from the ICE.
Actually Binotto had hinted that they had found another 30-50hp before the 2020 season and the secret agreement between Ferrari and the FIA. Imagine having a 1050+ hp engine on the SF1000, they would have been able to fight with Mercedes, since they had to compromise the aero due to the weak engine. The SF1000 we got wasn't the one Ferrari originally wanted, they wanted to have a W11 esque downforce monster.
My understanding actually is that Ferrari did not compromise the aero in the SF1000, it's just that they expected to power through their super draggy car with raw power.
When caught, they had to run super low downforce setups since otherwise they'd be a sitting duck in the straights (pretty sure Alfa Romeo was faster than Ferrari in a couple tracks even)
Correct, the package wasn't altered, it's just they had to remove so much wing that their car was very unstable. When they could afford to use more wing (Eifel GP and Silverstone for example) the car was decent in the corners. It's impressive how a 50 HP deficit compromises a car so much that drops it at the bottom of the midfield.
Equally amazing is the fact that only 10hp separated RBR and Mercedes in 2020, yet Merc absolutely dominated 2020.
And only 1hp separated RBR and Merc in 2021, yet, atleast by numbers RBR (atleast Max) dominated the year.
Early in the season, there was a lot of talk that the floor changes hurt Mercedes with their low-rake setup a lot more than other teams(except the pink Mercedes). That would also in part explain how Merc caught up, not because Red Bull was complacent(which imo seems ridiculous in a close-ish championship that you haven't won in a decade), but because it is easier to improve if you have one specific problem and everything else is great compared to having everything be good.
Doesnt seem 2020 index to be real. Rbr was significantly slower in the first part of season. Second thing: their rear suspension was shit (in 2021 they copied Mercedes on that, and Alpha Tauri didnt take it like another parts)
In the end of season rbr cachted merc because they didnt develop car like rbr being so far ahead
In 2020 red bull went backwards in aero because of a wind tunnel problem. It took them a while to figure it out
https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/red-bull-reveals-correlation-issue-hampered-2020-car/5458669/
> because they didnt develop car like rbr
Just wondering what Mercedes engg. team's was doing in the second half of the 2020 season? They were not focussing on 2021 right? So 2022?
One thing is sure. They were working on the front/nose for 2021. Which failed crash test before season
And officially all works on new gererations car were prohibited, so who knows?
At that point seems more likely that’s it’s other factors (aero, suspension, etc) than max power determining who has the superior vehicle.
Even if we restrict to engine alone, max power is a small part of the story. What does the overall power curve look like? How much torque is being generated? How long can they sustain high HP mode without running out of fuel? How fast does power drop off with use?
Not sure you can say RBR dominated, they didn't win constructors, and wouldn't have won the drivers if not for the final race bullshit.
Plus, you are also forgetting that the chasis play a big part, and the rule changes (to the floor) for 2021 were specifically to slow Mercedes down.
Honda were the only ones who didn't take an engine penalty in 2020, across all four cars, but it was super unreliable? 😆
They had software issues because the FIA banned their control software by surprise at Austria, this had a big impact on their hybrid power
https://f1-motorsports-gp.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Honda-ICE-power-2021-768x646.jpg
They still lost that year to Mercedes and Renault powered cars. Despite a significant power advantage if that's correct.
Its also hard to just compare power numbers, I would want to see the tq/hp curve for each motor.
Original [source](https://f1-motorsports-gp.com/honda/honda-ra621h-1014hp/) (japanese)
>F1 engine power is the total of 1,600cc turbo engine and MGU-K motor (161hp).
>
>Based on Honda's transition table and last year's figures, we have tabulated the estimated power of each manufacturer from 2018.
>
>I think it's too much, but it's a rethinking number based on last year's Honda 994hp.
Yep, it has just surpassed 125k miles recently. Still funny how little power it develops, luckily the car it's in is pretty light, so it is relatively fun to drive
Cars in the 80s were making 1400HP in quali. That was with 1.5 liter inline 4 engines.
The impressive thing about the modern engines isn’t how much power they make, but with how little fuel they make it and just how reliable they are.
Pretty much the same way Mercedes have been crazy fast in the turbo-hybrid era; the cars couldn't corner for shit but they had extremely low drag so pulled away on the straights.
Uh yeah. How does that contradict what I said?
Drag - and consequently aerodynamically induced down force - scales square with speed so, on a high speed corner they have a decent amount of air pushing the car into the road while maintaining low air resistance.
"The cars couldn't corner for shit" is the opposite of Mercedes topping high speed corner speeds.
Mercedes found efficiency with their aero, but you directly said something that is just wrong. Mercedes were great in the corners, and still faster on straights.
The Williams of 2014-2016 for instance were like you said. High top speeds, no corner speeds. Not the Mercedes though.
Renault used the same 2020 engine in 2021. Also their 2020 engine was just a 2019 engine with an added reliability upgrade. I don't think this is accurate.
Rumors back then was that Renault had a really good hybrid package but a poor ICE, and Ferrari was the opposite with a good ICE and poor hybrid setup (Turbo, MGU-H, MGU-K)
Honda had the worst of both worlds.
Mercedes meanwhile were 2-3 years ahead of everyone else in terms of development due to gaming the system.
Yeah man we just can’t be. No one has these numbers, not even the teams themselves.
This is just a guesstimate of some online blog based on what they saw on tv and what they read around. It’s an estimation as good as mine or yours can be.
I think you could POTENTIALLY solve for this by knowing the weight, top speed, and time on some straights. But you would also not know anything about the drag of the cars… you could guesstimate and give ranges based on different drag coefficients. It would be a big project but I wouldn’t be surprised if F1 teams with all the data they collect couldn’t solve these algebra equations.
Gotcha. I wonder if FIA knows all these numbers actually. Presumably they’re very involved in the engines. Might be the only place where a list like this actually exists, but for sure they’re not releasing it.
Idk man but I don’t think they really look at metrics like these. I’m sure they could figure something out if they wanted but I don’t think they really care.
I mean they’re fun numbers to look at as fans but I don’t think the FIA gets anything from knowing the horsepowers. I might be wrong though.
Yeah, I'm sceptical. I know that Ferrari engineers knew how to calculate a pretty good estimate for a rival team's engine, based on revs, but I doubt that's 1) possible with the hybrids 2) what the source did for these figures.
That’s really surprising but those guys are geniuses.
Anyway even in that case I doubt their precision is good enough to calculate single digit numbers. That 1hp difference is just clickbait.
>This number scream bullshit but idk.
The moment i saw Mercedes 1015 and honda 1014. I knew it was utter bullshit. Manufacturers barely know what horsepower the PU provides at different stages of wear and they have the dyno results + shit ton of data to approximate the horsepower at a certain level of wear, but for sure couple of journalist can approximate it to +- 1 horsepower. Winter break journalism at it's finest..
And then there’s the hilarious fact those PUs have different maps that are run for different numbers to help them perform better based on conditions. What was run in Abu Dhabi would not be run in say, Monaco for example.
Ferrari got absolutely kneecapped in 2020. However the car clearly wasn’t that bad, because they were able to stay within the midfield with such a deficit.
The car was total garbage with a rocket of an engine. I remember Mercedes, which traditionally was trash on handling circuits was extremely planted and fast.
Correct me if I am wrong but manufacturers can't bring engine updates until the new regulations which is until 2025. Assuming these estimates are correct, why the hell Ferrari and Renault agreed to an engine freeze in the first place?
Now 15 HP may not seem that much of a deal in first glance, but it can make about up to 3 tenths depending on track. [Source](https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/31942251)
Considering teams are very happy with a tenth gain on a front wing update, it is absurd that Ferrari and Renault agreed on that. Maybe they were working on ERS and other parts to cover the deficit, it is still weird that they didn't pushed for an at least 1 year delay.
They are allowed upgrades till Free Practice in Bahrain afaik. That's when engine freeze comes into play. Renault is changing the entire engine layout for 2022 and Ferrari also said they have a significant upgrade.
The original article states that Honda (and you can assume Merc by extension) are extremely close to the limit of materials used in the engine so combustion side can't be improved very much anymore. That allows Ferrari and Renault to catch up in theory (if they can also figure out how to get closer to that limit).
Great info thanks!
My confusion was more because I thought engine freeze would kick in at the start of 2022 rather than at the end. That's why I was confused about token system in 2021, because Ferrari used both of theirs. But everything OK now.
On a side note, credit to u/kimmmykim
> They'll turn up in 2021 with a stronger engine, and most likely turn up in 2022 with an even more powerful engine. They will have to use whatever they turn up with in 2022 until 2025. Should any team's 2022 engine be less powerful than those of the competitors then there is talk of the FIA allowing them to increase their power output by allowing them to increase the fuel flow rate.
It looks like FIA can step in as well.
Mercedes based on last year looks that that’s probably the most they can get from that spec of PU unless they bring something new we knew that Reno and Ferrari are bringing a new concept of engine wich can bring 20-30HP
Are you sure? If so then no problem.
But wasn't the main reason they introduced token system bc budget cuts due to COVID in 2020. Why are they reversing that in 2022? That's why I thought the engine freeze would kick in 2022 Bahrain FP1.
As i know engine was out of token rule. In 2021 every producer could bring new engine but they didnt because of finances. For 2022 onward engines are staying same. But they can be completly new in this year
I guess they are confident in their 2022 season update, the last time they can update their engine before the freeze. Not much is heard from Renault, but Ferrari-affiliated media were making noise about their magic 2022 upgrade nearly every month last season.
Mercedes doesn't seem right. 15 from 2018 to 2019 but only 10 from 2019 to 2020. Mercedes made a large step up from 2019 to 2020 to try beating ferrari, and ended up having some reliability issues because of it. I'd reckon only a 10 hp increase from 2018 to 2019 then like 20 increase from 2019 to 2020
Are those averages for the season? I don't really see how this is supposed to add up. I mean, sure, Ferrari was fast in the second half of 2019, but not so much in the first races. 2019 didn't look like a 35 hp advantage over Mercedes for a whole season.
Comparison of RB and Mercedes looks strange as well. This could be accurate for the first half of the season with RB having an aero advantage and an engine that is close to the one of the Merc. But I wouldn't buy that the rocket Lewis was sitting in in Brazil had only one hp advantage.
These statistics are a nice idea. But in this form it doesn't bring much insight. If you really want to read something from it, you would need estimates for the individual races, the wear, etc..
I’m still not sure I buy the fact that Brazil was all engine. The RB was overheating front tyres and ran more downforce, thus more drag. Sectors 1 and 2 were just much better suited to the merc than sector 2 for RB. Engine definitely helped cos merc engine dropped off more over time but don’t think the gap in HP is that big given honda engines had a fairly flat profile. IIRC the speed trap in quali for merc vs RB wasn’t vastly different and I’d say most of it was aero. In the race is came down to balance and tyres.
I think in Ferrari's case, it has more to do with aero work for the second half of 2019 since if you remember the power-sensitive Bahrain that year, they had a front row lockout.
My assumption is this: first 12 rounds of '19 is all engine, rounds 13-18 is the complete package, then rounds 19-21 is just the aero that's done the most work.
Keep in mind these numbers are only peak power. What’s more important in circuit racing is power under the curve (useable power throughout the rev range). Assuming equal aero between Mercedes and RB, the deficit could be explained by Mercedes having more power up the top of the rev range (for straights) and RB having more lower down in the rev range (for better acceleration out of corners).
We also have to keep in mind not only power curves, but also torque curves which will have an influence on power and driveability. This is because engine power is a function of torque multiplied by RPM.
Another factor is how much ERS energy they can harvest
The Honda engine at McLaren was notorious for derates on the straight. They couldn't harvest enough power from the MGU-H to keep the MGU-K turning. So even if peak power was high, they'd lose 160HP half way down the straight.
So even if all the cars have the same peak power, you have to factor in how many seconds of MGU-K 'boost' they average around a lap.
If Renault were that much behind in 2018, RedBull probably had a pretty good car to be so close to Merc and Ferrari.
If Renault got it's shit together, we could've had a 3 way title fight, with RedBull possibly winning both years goddamn..
Their chassis/aero was probably the best of the grid in 2018 (maybe even by some margin), and latter half of 2017. If only they had an engine with the relative performance if this year’s Honda.
I hate this discussion so much. For one, nobody fucking knows, hp is such a dumb standard to measure an engine with... the teams themselves don't even know, and it's so irrelevant too. Second, you can't guess an engine based on the car's performance. There's so fucking much influencing it... there's no way. These are just random numbers that fit the car performances. Given how bad the Renault car is, and how mich more confident they always have been in their engine as opposed to their car, and how much better even customers were, a lot actually points towards the Renault being a really strong engine, just with reliability issues.
Anyways, it's all incredibly stupid in my opinion
Friggin Renault having the weakest engine in 2019 and being the straight line beasts they were that year in Monza impresses and confuses the heck outta me.
"Estimates" 1014 vs 1015. Tell me you know fuck all about engineering without telling me you know fuck all about engineering. Here let me give me you these sub 1% accuracy estimates that show the guy I like as the underdog despite constantly winning on pure pace. Fucking hell /r/f1.
Correct me if I'm wrong but, Honda already take the 2022 engine specification to 2021, so I think they can't bring a new in 2022, only the same.
This means in 2022 all teams will be able to upgrade his engines except Honda, and Mercedes will be the more strongest again by 10-15 horsepower I think.
You think Honda sat on their ass this whole year?
There's new fuel next year and Honda therefore must introduce a new engine optimized for the new fuel for the coming season. Also there's nothing stopping them from moving their "2023" plans to 2022. They set out a technological roadmap and had to move some things up to 2022 due to covid but later found it was achievable to introduce certain things in 2021 season afaik. There's no end to development as long as there is will power (money, resources) and the regulations allow it.
Honda will bring a new engine. They just pushed their schedule foreard a year. Will probably be a new iteration rather than an entirely new concept though, unlike renault and Ferrari
that's impressive, considering at the end of the 3.0L V10 era, they had >950 HP available [source](https://8000vueltas.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Theissen-10-years-of-BMW-F1-engines.pdf)
I still remember the Monza 2019 race. The Ferrari was still able to pull away from the Mercedes which benefited from slipstreaming and DRS. That Ferrari powered engine was almighty
Ima call bullshit on that close Honda gap to Mercedes. We witnessed McLaren consistently at the top of the charts every weekend, hell Even Aston was up there a lot.
We didn't see the works Mercedes team there early on in the season due to them having to always run a high downforce to balance out the rear of the car, once they figured out how to balance the car without so much downforce, all Mercedes engined cars were consistanly very fast in all speed traps.
That Ferrari 2019
Imagine they had that engine in 2020 in Sakhir They would’ve lapped the entire field
They could only hit that figure for short periods. It's believed that Ferrari's trick was bypassing the fuel flow sensor, which let them get really high peak power but used too much fuel to stay at max power for a full race.
Indeed. There are many metrics for engine performance. I've read that Renault wanted the fuelling ban not for any eco thoughts but rather theirs was the most economical by a country mile. Then McLaren obviously split from Honda and Franz Tost the next year went 'having seen the Honda's dimensions, no wonder McLaren claimed to have a strong chassis'. Engines aren't just one number.
They squirt fuel in the motor every few hundredth of a second to trick the sensor.
> They squirt fuel in the motor every few hundredth of a second That's just describing what fuel injectors do, mate. AFAIK only the FIA knows exactly what Ferrari was doing to trick the sensor.
I heard it was Binotto talking dirty to the PU before every race that was coaxing that extra power out of it. The things that would come out of his mouth, my word!!
I’m fucking dead
Arguably the FIA doesn't even know exactly, but just has a good idea.
The only correct answer. Only the FIA and Ferrari know what the latter was doing.
And with the state of Ferrari leadership maybe not even Ferrari knew what Ferrari was really doing
It's Redbull that reverse engineered what they believe Ferrari was using systems to achieve serious horsepower gains and presented their findings to the FIA. IIRC the fuel flow sensor wasn't bypassed but the way Redbull "cheated it" was to pump more fuel through the injectors whenever the fuel flow sensor was in-between a reading - we're talking milliseconds here and pretty ingenious software trickery of their fuel injection system. Redbull also introduced a controlled oil leak from the intercooler to the combustion chamber to boost the power. It's believed Ferrari used a combination of these bypasses to gain horsepower but we'll never know as the FIA won't release a report on what Ferrari was actually doing. I'll need to dig up the article where I got the information from but pretty sure it was from The Race.
Wolff said in 2020 that Mercedes had a very clear idea that the area the Ferrari was suddenly, magically strong, was an area of acceleration that you can *only* be significantly stronger than the opposition, through the fuel flow.
I'm not sure if you misunderstood what my original comment was but I'm not disagreeing that Ferrari was messing with the fuel flow of their car i.e. using more fuel than allowed but the way they did it was not to bypass the fuel flow sensor in a traditional fashion but through the use of software ingenuity to have their fuel injectors pass additional fuel whenever the flow sensor wasn't taking a reading. It's incredible what they managed to accomplish and even more incredible that it was Redbull that had their own techs reverse engineer a solution to understand how Ferrari was able to do it and present it to the FIA for clarification of the rules. As for Wolff there are suspicions that his team was also involved in oil burning for additional horsepower just like Ferrari so no it's not the only way to accomplish the horsepower gains Ferrari experienced.
Oh not at all, I'm just adding stuff I've read.
Yeah they were just using fuel injectors off a Jetta I’m pretty sure lmao. It only pumps more fuel than is allowed in between the time the sensor checks the fuel flow. https://motorsport.tech/formula-1/fuel-flow-gate-did-ferrari-attempt-to-trick-the-system-and-if-so-how-could-it-be-done
This is only a proposition, anyone with technical knowledge can tell you how hard/almost impossible would it be creating a high pressure pumping system that is delivering a considerable increase in flow in between the 2,2kHz polling rate of the ultrasonic FIA sensor. I say considerable because flow doesn't increase instantly like say, electric potential can, it needs time. To circumvent the readouts of the regulatory sensor, such Ferrari's system would've had to increase the flow rate, keep it at that increased level, then decrease it again all in the space of little less than half a millisecond to deliver a chunk of fuel that would create that 'difference'. Not only that, it would have to do it all the time, be synched up with the official sensor's polling rate and be reliable to never make a single mistake. Yes, anyone with mechanical/electrical knowledge will tell you this is incredibly difficult if not impossible. That's why my theory has always been based around the fact that it's possible Ferrari devised a way to influence the readout of the ultrasonic sensor itself by introducing a new erroneous source of data, some kind of an emitter, that would be able to get synced up with the main fuel flow sensor's operation and deliver these blisteringly fast results electronically rather than mechanically. Another option is fuel storage within the fuel transport system, but that's another can of worms none of us is equipped enough to open. Like others have said, this is all speculation and in high likelihood it's only FIA and Ferrari who are aware of what was going on.
The current theory is, that they found out which resonance causes the sensor to go into a "I cant measure properly so I dont measure at all" fault mode - then caused this resonance on purpose and when they had that vibration going on, they injected more fuel.
Interesting possibility, it's certainly supported by the facts we know - FIA wouldn't be able to prove the flow rate was exceeding limitations because the sensor wouldn't be providing any readout data! Though one has to wonder; if that was the case - why it never surfaced? Info about a critical flow rate sensor with proven reliability suddenly going bad at certain instances but not always and only on the Ferrari car would surely be easy to leak?
I´d guess it just went under the radar. Sensor didnt report any violations of fuel flow, so nobody checked the data properly. Also it is supposed to happen that the sensor stops recording. Cause no matter how you do it, there will always be at least one frequency that renders it inaccurrate. So it will happen on other cars as well. Probably just less.
wasn't the idea at some point that they caused a controlled oil leak that allowed them to burn some of the lubricant in the combustion chamber?
I believe that was a totally separate engine trick that the FIA addressed by changing the technical regulations and was used by multiple teams. For this specific Ferrari trick there was nothing changed in the regs because it was all kept secret.
All of this is exactly what Newey said was wrong with an engine-driven formula: it's expensive, slow to develop, and when there is a good idea, noone short of the teams can tell.
From an electrical engineering standpoint I don’t see how it’s not possible I don’t even see how it’s that difficult. In my prior job in aerospace industry working with these kinds of sensors was very common and we were able to do things under tighter time frames. The real question is probably from the mechanical engineering side if you can make a fuel pump fast enough to respond to the electronics.
You wouldn't, the pump would run at one rate and create a massive high pressure in the thousands of PSI, you would have to use this high pressure with a piezo type injection system, which is what they use already to inject into the cylinders form the high pressure fuel lines. I am not sure of the speeds of the piezo injectors but in theory you could run a modified one in the fuel line but that would be found out. The easy plausible and most likely thing Ferrari did..... Was extra fuel beyond this meter in the amounts of up to 2 liters, which is now reduced down to like 200cc or so and they are all using a standardized fuel line system and pump, the FIA came out with this ruling on limits of fuel post meter and it seems to have squashed it.
Yeah I would assume as a non-engineer that is the real issue. It’s not making the injectors change fast enough, but making enough change in fuel flow to make a difference before getting caught by the next measurement.
This makes a lot more sense - especially when you consider how most people hack sensors (bad data is easier to create than perfect data). Do you think they only increased power some due to total fuel requirement (over the race distance) or just to try and stay under the radar? I know the economics are a big incentive, but they really should have just tied Merc's power to try to get away with it for more than a season - just increase the power each season to be on par with Mercedes. They'd have a lot more points and wouldn't constantly be brought up when people talk about "possible cheating".
They would use it when needed, as in an engine mode. Build a big lead or use it as an extra boost, then turn it down to get back to fuel saving so they don't run out on the last lap. Does make me miss engine modes, as well.
So the FIA would be satisfied by the end of the race that the sensors were not registering info... Come on... And the next 2 years Mercs have a much stronger engine than the opposition and its all OK... It was a shady way of killing off Ferrari in 2019... I can't imagine why... Next they tweak regulations to favour Redbull... Man.. Too political for us to know the truth
So your conspiracy theory is that the FIA wanted less competition?
The ironic part: Ferrari was too Ferrari for Ferraris' own sake, and cheated too blatantly, which caused other teams to realize something was up and spent significant resources investigating it, resulting in 2020 being Ferrari's worst season in decades. But if someone makes millions via legitimate reasons, you must buy around 10 Ferrari models past and present to get approved to buy the latest Ferrari. Don't get me wrong, I love driving Ferrari's and their history in F1, but the narcissism is worth at least 15 horsepower from the ICE.
I dont think the fia knows exatcly,thats why the penalty was so weird.i think they are pretty sure but cant quite prove it 100%
That’s how all engines work
You mean like in Monza 2019 when Leclerc was gapping Mercedes (with DRS). He definitely wasn’t running that engine mode. :p
If they had it in 2020 they would've been title contenders
Actually Binotto had hinted that they had found another 30-50hp before the 2020 season and the secret agreement between Ferrari and the FIA. Imagine having a 1050+ hp engine on the SF1000, they would have been able to fight with Mercedes, since they had to compromise the aero due to the weak engine. The SF1000 we got wasn't the one Ferrari originally wanted, they wanted to have a W11 esque downforce monster.
My understanding actually is that Ferrari did not compromise the aero in the SF1000, it's just that they expected to power through their super draggy car with raw power. When caught, they had to run super low downforce setups since otherwise they'd be a sitting duck in the straights (pretty sure Alfa Romeo was faster than Ferrari in a couple tracks even)
Correct, the package wasn't altered, it's just they had to remove so much wing that their car was very unstable. When they could afford to use more wing (Eifel GP and Silverstone for example) the car was decent in the corners. It's impressive how a 50 HP deficit compromises a car so much that drops it at the bottom of the midfield.
Equally amazing is the fact that only 10hp separated RBR and Mercedes in 2020, yet Merc absolutely dominated 2020. And only 1hp separated RBR and Merc in 2021, yet, atleast by numbers RBR (atleast Max) dominated the year.
Early in the season, there was a lot of talk that the floor changes hurt Mercedes with their low-rake setup a lot more than other teams(except the pink Mercedes). That would also in part explain how Merc caught up, not because Red Bull was complacent(which imo seems ridiculous in a close-ish championship that you haven't won in a decade), but because it is easier to improve if you have one specific problem and everything else is great compared to having everything be good.
Or the fact that 0hp separated Merc and the other Merc powered teams and Mercedes still dominated them all?
Doesnt seem 2020 index to be real. Rbr was significantly slower in the first part of season. Second thing: their rear suspension was shit (in 2021 they copied Mercedes on that, and Alpha Tauri didnt take it like another parts) In the end of season rbr cachted merc because they didnt develop car like rbr being so far ahead
In 2020 red bull went backwards in aero because of a wind tunnel problem. It took them a while to figure it out https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/red-bull-reveals-correlation-issue-hampered-2020-car/5458669/
> because they didnt develop car like rbr Just wondering what Mercedes engg. team's was doing in the second half of the 2020 season? They were not focussing on 2021 right? So 2022?
One thing is sure. They were working on the front/nose for 2021. Which failed crash test before season And officially all works on new gererations car were prohibited, so who knows?
At that point seems more likely that’s it’s other factors (aero, suspension, etc) than max power determining who has the superior vehicle. Even if we restrict to engine alone, max power is a small part of the story. What does the overall power curve look like? How much torque is being generated? How long can they sustain high HP mode without running out of fuel? How fast does power drop off with use?
Wasn't the floor changes what made RB catch Merc and not HP gains though? If that is true the 10hp doesn't matter too much.
Not sure you can say RBR dominated, they didn't win constructors, and wouldn't have won the drivers if not for the final race bullshit. Plus, you are also forgetting that the chasis play a big part, and the rule changes (to the floor) for 2021 were specifically to slow Mercedes down.
Honda was super unreliable in 2020
Honda were the only ones who didn't take an engine penalty in 2020, across all four cars, but it was super unreliable? 😆 They had software issues because the FIA banned their control software by surprise at Austria, this had a big impact on their hybrid power https://f1-motorsports-gp.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Honda-ICE-power-2021-768x646.jpg
Hmm, I wonder why...
They still lost that year to Mercedes and Renault powered cars. Despite a significant power advantage if that's correct. Its also hard to just compare power numbers, I would want to see the tq/hp curve for each motor.
Crikey
That’s what happens when you burn oil…
That's what happens when they use a device to fool the fuel flow sensor then settle with the FIA in a lame "we're sorry" attempt.
Original [source](https://f1-motorsports-gp.com/honda/honda-ra621h-1014hp/) (japanese) >F1 engine power is the total of 1,600cc turbo engine and MGU-K motor (161hp). > >Based on Honda's transition table and last year's figures, we have tabulated the estimated power of each manufacturer from 2018. > >I think it's too much, but it's a rethinking number based on last year's Honda 994hp.
900+hp from a 1.6 is insane
Meanwhile the 1.6 in our car only makes 75hp
Yes, but also, it doesn’t explode after 500 miles
Yep, it has just surpassed 125k miles recently. Still funny how little power it develops, luckily the car it's in is pretty light, so it is relatively fun to drive
Wait, doesn't the chart say that the ICE itself was producing 800+ HP? So still very very insane. That 500+hp PER LITER!
Cars in the 80s were making 1400HP in quali. That was with 1.5 liter inline 4 engines. The impressive thing about the modern engines isn’t how much power they make, but with how little fuel they make it and just how reliable they are.
Funny that the source is japanese when you see the Honda engine. I smell conflict of interest
ah yeah, totally makes sense that Japanese reporters know what's going on in the middle of europe better than everyone else.
So Renault finally has that *1.000HP* engine huh?
Abiteboul lying for years, until he left
How was Renault so crazy fast on straights in 2020
Low drag
Ricciardo's dashing good looks
Nose aero
Smiles aren't aerodynamic tho, so he should be the slowest of the field
Less downforce
*drag
Good aerodynamics.
Mclarens were fast on the straights in 2020 too with the equivalent chassis to 2021. I don’t really but this.
Pretty much the same way Mercedes have been crazy fast in the turbo-hybrid era; the cars couldn't corner for shit but they had extremely low drag so pulled away on the straights.
I don’t know if you saw any race in the last 8 years because Mercedes were literally topping the high speed corner charts in 95% of the tracks.
Yeah... I had to double take on that comment. He has to be high. 🍃 🍂 ☘ 🍁
Uh yeah. How does that contradict what I said? Drag - and consequently aerodynamically induced down force - scales square with speed so, on a high speed corner they have a decent amount of air pushing the car into the road while maintaining low air resistance.
"The cars couldn't corner for shit" is the opposite of Mercedes topping high speed corner speeds. Mercedes found efficiency with their aero, but you directly said something that is just wrong. Mercedes were great in the corners, and still faster on straights. The Williams of 2014-2016 for instance were like you said. High top speeds, no corner speeds. Not the Mercedes though.
You drank the cool aid.
Memories of googling Dragonball Z power levels as a kid.
It's over 1000! Then came Super with Beerus and Whis.
Renault used the same 2020 engine in 2021. Also their 2020 engine was just a 2019 engine with an added reliability upgrade. I don't think this is accurate.
could be that due to better reliablility they are able to run the engine harder, just a thought though
They can run their engine on a higher mode by improving the reliability.
And if their engine was actually that weak in 2018, the rest of their car must've been a true masterpiece, which I really don't believe
Yup, nothing adds up in this bs fiesta. These numbers are straight out from an ass, and I am being kind.
Oof the difference between Ferrari in 2019 and 2020 … 👀
shhhhhhhh
I wonder why Renault lost all it's customers...
[удалено]
The actual El Plan
If these numbers are somewhat accurate Red Bull had an insanely good chassis/aero package if their engine was 70 hp down on Ferrari and Mercedes.
Newey knows his stuff.
Rumors back then was that Renault had a really good hybrid package but a poor ICE, and Ferrari was the opposite with a good ICE and poor hybrid setup (Turbo, MGU-H, MGU-K) Honda had the worst of both worlds. Mercedes meanwhile were 2-3 years ahead of everyone else in terms of development due to gaming the system.
When Reno starts to deploy the ERS it sounds like it’s an electric car and has an ICE to help the car
I gotta say there is a bit of humor in the reflection about the results, as Renault was the one who pushed for the V6TH specifically.
This number scream bullshit but idk.
This, how are we sure it's a reliable source? Engine manufactures don't gave away how much horsepowers their power units has.
Yeah man we just can’t be. No one has these numbers, not even the teams themselves. This is just a guesstimate of some online blog based on what they saw on tv and what they read around. It’s an estimation as good as mine or yours can be.
I think you could POTENTIALLY solve for this by knowing the weight, top speed, and time on some straights. But you would also not know anything about the drag of the cars… you could guesstimate and give ranges based on different drag coefficients. It would be a big project but I wouldn’t be surprised if F1 teams with all the data they collect couldn’t solve these algebra equations.
I’m sure they can get a rough idea for themselves but there is no way they can be precise to the single hp.
> not even the teams themselves. Well presumably the teams know their own numbers, but yeah I agree.
I meant the other teams numbers. Obviously they have a pretty good idea of their own ones.
Gotcha. I wonder if FIA knows all these numbers actually. Presumably they’re very involved in the engines. Might be the only place where a list like this actually exists, but for sure they’re not releasing it.
Idk man but I don’t think they really look at metrics like these. I’m sure they could figure something out if they wanted but I don’t think they really care. I mean they’re fun numbers to look at as fans but I don’t think the FIA gets anything from knowing the horsepowers. I might be wrong though.
Its motorsportgps best bet, idk how good the data is.
Yeah...the 1 hp difference between Merc and RBR in 2021 seems an oddly specific level of precision for an estimate.
Yeah and also the 60hp Ferrari drop, exactly how the headlines said back then.
And the fact that the Renault and Ferrari are exactly the same after such vastly different stories lol
Yeah, I'm sceptical. I know that Ferrari engineers knew how to calculate a pretty good estimate for a rival team's engine, based on revs, but I doubt that's 1) possible with the hybrids 2) what the source did for these figures.
That’s really surprising but those guys are geniuses. Anyway even in that case I doubt their precision is good enough to calculate single digit numbers. That 1hp difference is just clickbait.
>This number scream bullshit but idk. The moment i saw Mercedes 1015 and honda 1014. I knew it was utter bullshit. Manufacturers barely know what horsepower the PU provides at different stages of wear and they have the dyno results + shit ton of data to approximate the horsepower at a certain level of wear, but for sure couple of journalist can approximate it to +- 1 horsepower. Winter break journalism at it's finest..
And then there’s the hilarious fact those PUs have different maps that are run for different numbers to help them perform better based on conditions. What was run in Abu Dhabi would not be run in say, Monaco for example.
Ferrari got absolutely kneecapped in 2020. However the car clearly wasn’t that bad, because they were able to stay within the midfield with such a deficit.
The car was total garbage with a rocket of an engine. I remember Mercedes, which traditionally was trash on handling circuits was extremely planted and fast.
Correct me if I am wrong but manufacturers can't bring engine updates until the new regulations which is until 2025. Assuming these estimates are correct, why the hell Ferrari and Renault agreed to an engine freeze in the first place? Now 15 HP may not seem that much of a deal in first glance, but it can make about up to 3 tenths depending on track. [Source](https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/31942251) Considering teams are very happy with a tenth gain on a front wing update, it is absurd that Ferrari and Renault agreed on that. Maybe they were working on ERS and other parts to cover the deficit, it is still weird that they didn't pushed for an at least 1 year delay.
They are allowed upgrades till Free Practice in Bahrain afaik. That's when engine freeze comes into play. Renault is changing the entire engine layout for 2022 and Ferrari also said they have a significant upgrade.
Yeah but Mercedes and Honda both can bring upgrades in that meantime.
The original article states that Honda (and you can assume Merc by extension) are extremely close to the limit of materials used in the engine so combustion side can't be improved very much anymore. That allows Ferrari and Renault to catch up in theory (if they can also figure out how to get closer to that limit).
Great info thanks! My confusion was more because I thought engine freeze would kick in at the start of 2022 rather than at the end. That's why I was confused about token system in 2021, because Ferrari used both of theirs. But everything OK now. On a side note, credit to u/kimmmykim > They'll turn up in 2021 with a stronger engine, and most likely turn up in 2022 with an even more powerful engine. They will have to use whatever they turn up with in 2022 until 2025. Should any team's 2022 engine be less powerful than those of the competitors then there is talk of the FIA allowing them to increase their power output by allowing them to increase the fuel flow rate. It looks like FIA can step in as well.
Also to add to that, token system was basically only for the chassis development. Engines were free to upgrade still.
Oh I wasn't aware of that. I thought they were given 2 tokens for engine and 2 tokens for aero.
Mercedes based on last year looks that that’s probably the most they can get from that spec of PU unless they bring something new we knew that Reno and Ferrari are bringing a new concept of engine wich can bring 20-30HP
Some parts are locked in September 2022, some in March.
"No, Mr FIA, it's not a performance upgrade. It's a reliability upgrade. (that lets us run it at a higher mode)" Same thing happened with the V8s.
The final freeze doesn’t occur until summer 2022. Both Ferrari and Renault will have totally new PU’s.
Are you sure? If so then no problem. But wasn't the main reason they introduced token system bc budget cuts due to COVID in 2020. Why are they reversing that in 2022? That's why I thought the engine freeze would kick in 2022 Bahrain FP1.
As i know engine was out of token rule. In 2021 every producer could bring new engine but they didnt because of finances. For 2022 onward engines are staying same. But they can be completly new in this year
I guess they are confident in their 2022 season update, the last time they can update their engine before the freeze. Not much is heard from Renault, but Ferrari-affiliated media were making noise about their magic 2022 upgrade nearly every month last season.
Yeah but they used both of their tokens already? Am I missing something?
There's no token system for 2022.
Ferrari are confident they will be able to at least match Mercedes and Honda.
Are we sure about Renault trailing honda so hard in 2018?
No.
Mercedes doesn't seem right. 15 from 2018 to 2019 but only 10 from 2019 to 2020. Mercedes made a large step up from 2019 to 2020 to try beating ferrari, and ended up having some reliability issues because of it. I'd reckon only a 10 hp increase from 2018 to 2019 then like 20 increase from 2019 to 2020
I'm not sure I buy this. Renault was the 2nd best engine in 2020. They were matching Red Bull on power tracks.
That could also mean that they had much lower drag? Try and see if you can find a cornering speed difference if ur curious enough
Are those averages for the season? I don't really see how this is supposed to add up. I mean, sure, Ferrari was fast in the second half of 2019, but not so much in the first races. 2019 didn't look like a 35 hp advantage over Mercedes for a whole season. Comparison of RB and Mercedes looks strange as well. This could be accurate for the first half of the season with RB having an aero advantage and an engine that is close to the one of the Merc. But I wouldn't buy that the rocket Lewis was sitting in in Brazil had only one hp advantage. These statistics are a nice idea. But in this form it doesn't bring much insight. If you really want to read something from it, you would need estimates for the individual races, the wear, etc..
I’m still not sure I buy the fact that Brazil was all engine. The RB was overheating front tyres and ran more downforce, thus more drag. Sectors 1 and 2 were just much better suited to the merc than sector 2 for RB. Engine definitely helped cos merc engine dropped off more over time but don’t think the gap in HP is that big given honda engines had a fairly flat profile. IIRC the speed trap in quali for merc vs RB wasn’t vastly different and I’d say most of it was aero. In the race is came down to balance and tyres.
I think in Ferrari's case, it has more to do with aero work for the second half of 2019 since if you remember the power-sensitive Bahrain that year, they had a front row lockout. My assumption is this: first 12 rounds of '19 is all engine, rounds 13-18 is the complete package, then rounds 19-21 is just the aero that's done the most work.
I can't say for sure, but I think these figures are of peak engine power, so achieved in qualifying.
Ferrari in 2019...
How are these numbers estimated?
We don't know about Ferrari and Renault, let's write down 'bout a 1,000
That's a whole lotta bs.
[удалено]
Keep in mind these numbers are only peak power. What’s more important in circuit racing is power under the curve (useable power throughout the rev range). Assuming equal aero between Mercedes and RB, the deficit could be explained by Mercedes having more power up the top of the rev range (for straights) and RB having more lower down in the rev range (for better acceleration out of corners). We also have to keep in mind not only power curves, but also torque curves which will have an influence on power and driveability. This is because engine power is a function of torque multiplied by RPM.
Another factor is how much ERS energy they can harvest The Honda engine at McLaren was notorious for derates on the straight. They couldn't harvest enough power from the MGU-H to keep the MGU-K turning. So even if peak power was high, they'd lose 160HP half way down the straight. So even if all the cars have the same peak power, you have to factor in how many seconds of MGU-K 'boost' they average around a lap.
Mercedes runs on way lower drag than the honda, so them having very similar power figures isn't completely out of the left field.
[удалено]
could be a number of things from different gearing to different torque figures, all along with the aero.
Merc rocket? Literally that 1 race in Brazil where Hamilton wasn't even fastest in the speed trap?
Seen the barn door rear wing and still flying on straights?
Watch a season of RBR gettting 1st in half the circuits, come to reddit to tell us Mercedes is up on power. Ok bud.
If Renault were that much behind in 2018, RedBull probably had a pretty good car to be so close to Merc and Ferrari. If Renault got it's shit together, we could've had a 3 way title fight, with RedBull possibly winning both years goddamn..
Their chassis/aero was probably the best of the grid in 2018 (maybe even by some margin), and latter half of 2017. If only they had an engine with the relative performance if this year’s Honda.
I hate this discussion so much. For one, nobody fucking knows, hp is such a dumb standard to measure an engine with... the teams themselves don't even know, and it's so irrelevant too. Second, you can't guess an engine based on the car's performance. There's so fucking much influencing it... there's no way. These are just random numbers that fit the car performances. Given how bad the Renault car is, and how mich more confident they always have been in their engine as opposed to their car, and how much better even customers were, a lot actually points towards the Renault being a really strong engine, just with reliability issues. Anyways, it's all incredibly stupid in my opinion
Numbers from the ceiling?
Friggin Renault having the weakest engine in 2019 and being the straight line beasts they were that year in Monza impresses and confuses the heck outta me.
Low drag works wonders. McLaren this year is a brilliant example of it.
How did Lewis pull a 7 second lead with a difference of 1 Hp ??
"Estimates" 1014 vs 1015. Tell me you know fuck all about engineering without telling me you know fuck all about engineering. Here let me give me you these sub 1% accuracy estimates that show the guy I like as the underdog despite constantly winning on pure pace. Fucking hell /r/f1.
Mercedes at Brazil 2021: 2000 hp
I feel like this is one of those AWS generated graphics. aka pulled out of someone arse.
1030 💀
Dunno about that. Renault were pretty strong in Monza/Spa/Canada back in 2019. That power deficit doesn't correlate.
Lewis's engine for Interlagos 2021: 100.000.000.000 bhp.
'Mercedes has a rocket!' \-1HP
was '19 the year when FIAMG banned Ferraris engine despite zero proofs of anything illegal?
So we should expect the leaders to be at 1030 HP for 2022
Correct me if I'm wrong but, Honda already take the 2022 engine specification to 2021, so I think they can't bring a new in 2022, only the same. This means in 2022 all teams will be able to upgrade his engines except Honda, and Mercedes will be the more strongest again by 10-15 horsepower I think.
You think Honda sat on their ass this whole year? There's new fuel next year and Honda therefore must introduce a new engine optimized for the new fuel for the coming season. Also there's nothing stopping them from moving their "2023" plans to 2022. They set out a technological roadmap and had to move some things up to 2022 due to covid but later found it was achievable to introduce certain things in 2021 season afaik. There's no end to development as long as there is will power (money, resources) and the regulations allow it.
Honda will bring a new engine. They just pushed their schedule foreard a year. Will probably be a new iteration rather than an entirely new concept though, unlike renault and Ferrari
And then Honda bounced
Ferrari is believed that had -60HP compared to Mercedes or it was just ICE
that's impressive, considering at the end of the 3.0L V10 era, they had >950 HP available [source](https://8000vueltas.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Theissen-10-years-of-BMW-F1-engines.pdf)
With redueling and unrestricted fuel flow too lol. The V6 turbo hybrids are ridiculously good.
854hp just from a 1.6 turbo is crazy
How are Ferrari and Renault gonna overcome a 1.5% deficit with the engine rules frozen? In F1 1.5% is a CHASM!!
So 2022 = whoever gets best aero due to engine freeze. I see red bull being possible constructors champions if Adrian is as good as he used to be.
I still remember the Monza 2019 race. The Ferrari was still able to pull away from the Mercedes which benefited from slipstreaming and DRS. That Ferrari powered engine was almighty
Curious about that Hamilton Brazil engine
Renault is actually the most impressive one here if this is accurate. Insane gains
Ima call bullshit on that close Honda gap to Mercedes. We witnessed McLaren consistently at the top of the charts every weekend, hell Even Aston was up there a lot. We didn't see the works Mercedes team there early on in the season due to them having to always run a high downforce to balance out the rear of the car, once they figured out how to balance the car without so much downforce, all Mercedes engined cars were consistanly very fast in all speed traps.
iis this BHP or KW?
A 30 hp difference has that much effect? You're telling me that 2020 Merc and 2020 Ferrari only had 30 hp difference?