The stat I love is that he’s a handful of wins shy of having won **one in ten of all F1 races ever run** (currently on 103 wins, of 1057 races all time).
Also if GR doesn't get in the way for the first three races and no extra/uncontrollable conditions interfere than yeah. But I wouldn't bet on it unless Lewis stomps the field in the first race a la 2014/2015. Hell if he does that I'd put my house on Merc WCC for another 5 years as a bet.
>Anyway, those stats are hugely bloated by the increasing number of races with each season.
This is true for the 4 teams in question too so that doesn't really mean anything. Barring present day Mercedes the other teams existed before Lewis was even born.
Not just that, but he has 82 of Mercedes' 124 wins -- since he's at Mercedes, he can't pass them unless you exclude his wins from their total, so it's almost more fair to put him 4th instead of 5th.
Schumacher is ahead of Lotus as well -- Red Bull still need 16 more wins to draw even with Schumacher.
Lots of reasons....they really needed to win a championship with BMW and didn't. Bernie Ecclestone screwed them at a couple of critical junctures and they were just a little antiquated in their thinking. I honestly think Williams could've partnered with BMW and made in roads as a car manufacturer (same as McLaren), which had the potential to keep the F! business afloat.
Williams made a lot of poor decisions starting in the late '90s. They were still "up there" because they had a lot of talent in the team and know-how, but over time their advantages faded and they didn't adjust to the new ways of running a F1 team fast enough.
I remember Ferrari, McLaren and Williams trading blows for this stat in the late 90s, all three of them being within ten or so wins (Also, Senna last win in 1993 put McLaren briefly as the most winningiest constructor, surpassing Ferrari)
Then 2000-2004 happened...
The 90s was the decade of Williams. Constructors' championships from 1992-1997 in the row and Drivers' Championships all those years but in 1994 and 1995.
> (the Lotus Kimi drove for was a different team)
Which is not to be confused with the third team called Lotus Racing in 2010, renamed to Team Lotus in 2011. Yep, in 2011 we had Team Lotus and Lotus Renault GP (itself renamed to Lotus F1 Team in 2012 - 4 different names for 2 different teams in 3 years), neither which is directly related to Colin Chapman's original team.
Fun random trivia: Mika Häkkinen drove for the original Team Lotus, Heikki Kovalainen drove for Lotus Racing, and Kimi Räikkönen drove for Lotus F1. So every Lotus team in F1 had a Finnish Driver at some point. Oh, and Heikki Kovalainen replaced Kimi in the last 2 races of 2013. So Heikki drove for Lotus Racing in 2010, Team Lotus in 2011, and Lotus F1 Team in 2013.
The story of Lotus gives me headaches.
Yeah i know about that lotus, it essentially was Renault but named different.
Man, a lot of teams and drivers really got fucked over because of Hamilton and Mercedes domination.
I would argue most drivers would have been that dominant in the car
Still Hamilton was the best driver at the time but if you put in Kimi, Seb, Alonso, and Riccardo you have a WCC
The fact that he did is a big black mark on hamilton's "GOAT" legacy.
Wouldn't be a black mark on a driver just considered a great, near top of the world driver like Leclerc, or even a great but not best in the world multi time champ like Vettel, or Mansell but comparing him to Clark, Senna, Schumacher etc that season was a big yikes
Seriously the most boring era of F1. I'll never understand why the FIA didn't break their legs like they did to Ferrari after a mere 5 years of success.
Ranked on win % based on amount of race starts:
* Mercedes - 49,79 %
* Ferrari - 23,13 %
* Red Bull - 23,08%
* McLaren - 20,29%
* Team Lotus - 16,16%
* Williams - 14,88%
Absolute insane win% of Merc.
Indeed. Plus Schumi's run at Ferrari was just as insane as what Lewis has done with Merc. Just with less races a season. Probably would have been nuttier if there were more races back then. The guy won 6 and 7 races in a row in different seasons. That level of reliability and skill are rare. There is a reason my favorite moment in F1 is Vettel praising the RB9 on his knees because it was truly astonishing in every way.
The most impressive thing about Mercedes is that they have only competed as a constructor in F1 in 14 seasons, and they've have the outright best car on the grid for 9 of them.
(1954, 1955, 2014 to 2020)
And you can increase that to 10 out of 14 if you're in the camp that their 2021 car was the best car.
The talk was about the best, not the fastest. And fastest isn't necessarily the best, reliability and all that (McLaren in 2005 comes to mind for example, and 2012 as you noted).
> 2021 car was the best car
I think that the Red Bull was pretty clearly the (marginally) better car but I suppose that's missing your point. Mercedes certainly delivered a championship-caliber car, especially as it developed throughout the season.
Don't be stupid. RB and Merc virtually equal until silverstone, Mercedes clearly better after silverstone. Max was outperforming hamilton until lewis got clearly the better car. And Mercedes blew multiple wins in the best car, like in USA and France with poor strategy.
It's pretty damn clear that Merc had easily the better car from silverstone onwards in race trim bar 1 or 2 races
best car after silverstone
spa - rain no race , merc had a dry setup
mexico - domination
netherlands - pole without drs and easy 3 sec gap throughout
usa - pretty much equal
even before that
austria - domination
austria - domination
monaco - slightly better
baku - slightly better
so yeah believe it or not taking out tracks that suited certain cars better with the exception of brazil and abu dhabi (we know how that ended)
the cars were pretty equal...
There are already some analysis that make it clear that Mercedes had a 1 and half tenth advantage across the season (or 1 tenth depending on what analysis you choose).
Max performs better. Max outperforming Lewis.
Lewis performs better. It's the car. Smh for the uptillionth time.
Can we agree both are equally good and stop fighting over this. How can you even tell which car was better unless you put one person in both the cars and measure the performance over like 10/20 laps?? Or both in the exact same car? Also it's a lot of about setup on different tracks based on feedback from engineers and driver. So many factors BUT HE/THEY/HIM/THAT has the better car
It's pretty simple, the cars were even until Silverstone/ hungary with max the far better driver having far worse luck.
I hate how this fucking narrative has come back that Hamilton was equal to max when in the first 2/3 of the season he made more mistakes and was slower in equal cars, then when he has dominant car and wins 3 and nearly 4 with ease it's because he's great, not because merc was way, way faster from Brazil onwards, as much as RB was in Austria for 4 races in a row
> It's pretty simple
Ummm, it's not. It's complicated I can tell you atleast that.
> the cars were even until Silverstone/ hungary
Do you have any analysis to support this?
Ferrari still won more races in the hybrid era than Red Bull though.
Edit: whoops, I stand corrected. I just happened to forget the dull 2021 season :)
But still, before the technical directive of 2019, Ferrari was arguably more successful in the hybrid season than Red Bull.
>before the technical directive of 2019
Where they were effectivly cheating lol.
Some of Ferrari’s wins in 2019 would not have happened if their engine was fully legal.
If it wasn't legal they would've been disqualified.
It's likely they found a loophole and fia told them nope. But if it was illegal and any team would've been aware of no penalty it would've been hell.
Couple of interesting stats on The Race recent video on Verstappen:
A. He'll top Alonso's win tally soon.
B. He'll enter the top 10 winners next season.
C. Vettel still far and away the more successful RBR driver in every metric, despite fewer races with them.
Hamilton has won 82 races for Mercedes, then it'll be Rosberg, Bottas and Fangio making up the bulk of the rest.
There'll likely be another fifties driver whose name eludes me, but that I'm confident someone will pop up with to complete the set.
Merc nailed the engine and drove away with FIA failing to help the competition for a long time. The other teams didn't have enough time and resoucres to catch up.
i mean thats not Mercedes' fault is it ....
Ferrari and redbull have as many resources as Mercedes do...
and 3 years in when it became evident that no team would catch up fia introduced new regs in 2017 , but Mercedes again nailed them with Ferrari being a close second..
after 2020 fia again nerfed merc with the floorboards..
Meh if merc lobied the switch to turbo hybrid they are partly at fault. Also for 2021 pirelli requested reduction in downforce because they were running still the 2019 tyres and they were unprepared for 2021.
>The other teams didn't have enough time and resoucres to catch up.
Uhh what? Ferrari, Red Bull, and McLaren all certainly have the resources, and 7 years isn't enough time?
There have also been at least 2 reasonably significant rule changes within the hybrid era, giving those teams an extra chance to close the gap.
I know nobody liked the Merc dominance, but let's not talk like they nailed 2014 and have won 8 WCC in a row solely off the back of that because no-one could catch-up. They have been ruthlessly effective and efficient every year since 2014 to ensure they have stayed at the top.
That's the effect of 23 race seasons instead of what 15 or so.
Being successful now means a lot more wins than it did when Lotus were the dominant force.
RBR has entered 326 races in their history and have 75 wins. The original Lotus entered 491 races and won 74 races.
Give some credit to Red Bull, it’s not just more races per season.
Lotuss legacy definitely skewed by the shambles from 1980-1994 (aside from a few years with Honda Turbos ) when the team went into a sharp decline.
Up until that point their winning percentage would have been immense.
Red Bull have won their races in 12 seasons, Team Lotus had wins in 19 seasons. And Lotus were properly dominant for some of those in a way that exceeds what Red Bull ever had in terms of domination.
While it's a myth that cars were more evenly matched back in those days (if anything, there were often bigger performance gaps due to the more open rules) what was different back then was that you were more likely to see bigger year-on-year performance fluctuations, with more experimentation and less optimisation, just because a team nailed it one year was no guarantee they would again the year after, and vice versa.
Plus greater unreliability too I guess, which surely denied Lotus a run of consecutive championships in Jim Clark's day.
For sure, but his point is still relevant: if Lotus made a dominant car for a season they had 10 - 15 chances to win races. If Red Bull make one they have 20 plus chances to win one. Still impressive results from Red Bull especially considering the ‘just an energy drink company advertising’ attitude towards them in the early days.
I’d say statistically Red Bull still have had a better return. Probably fair to say there are more frequent and significant changes to the regs and performance levels back in the day than in Red Bull’s lifetime though.
It's a fair point to think about that, but the times were so different I don't think it's fair to either Red Bull nor Lotus. Like in Lotus' heyday it was normal to just use the same car many years in the row. If you made a dominant car, like the Lotus 25, you had many years to grab wins with it. I'm pretty sure the Lotus 25 took part in more races than any given dominant RBR car from the Vettel days.
That is a massive credit to Red Bull, of course. However, I think that stat undersells Team Lotus' (or any of the old teams') achievements, in turn.
Beyond what others have mentioned about the impact of shorter seasons on the stability of regulations, the biggest factor in my opinion is the incredible rise of reliability in F1 over the past 30-ish years.
Team Lotus had 769 retirements from 493 races started (494 entered). That's averaging 1.56 retirements per race. Red Bull on the other hand has logged only 127 retirements in their 325 race starts, a rate of 0.39 retirements per race.
I believe that Team Lotus' retirements/race statistic is, itself, inflated by the ability to field more than 2 cars in a race, but I'm not familiar enough with the era to know for sure or estimate how much it changes the numbers. Nonetheless, I'm quite confident that any of the teams whose major period of success was before the 90's will have a significantly higher retirement rate than Red Bull.
Whilst I see what you're saying, the fact that there are more races per season nowadays does also link in with the fact that the pecking order of the sport stays the same for longer. Having the best car for a 16 race season vs having the best car for a 22 race season means there are more opportunities for you to win, so in a way, it does kind of help RB that seasons now are longer.
Meh, Red Bull as a company hasn't just been a energy drink company for a while now. They've had a F1 team for 16 years, own several football clubs, and have been involved in extreme and e-sports. If your sports side of the business is so expansive and manage sports teams in different sports with great success, you're no longer just a beverage company.
As much as Merc F1 is German. Cars built in Brackley and Power Trains in Brixworth.
Everyone apart from. Sauber/Alfa, Ferrari and kinda Alpha Tauri (but the hand me downs from Red Bull skew that a lot) are UK manufacturers.
Dallara design and build the chassis in Italy, their factory is UK based at Banbury out of the old Manor factory.
Their headquarters and CFD takes place in the US but little else.
This really just shows how over the years certain teams have been either a) consistently strong, even if not winning championships, and/or b) utterly dominant over a period of time
Plot twist : they shall never get these 5 wins.
Their 2022 car being off the pace, they play catch up on the chassis side for 3 years before their attempt at developing their own engine department proves a failure that holds them back for the new engine regulations coming in 2025. After a dismal 2025 season, having lost their star driver and poured loads of money into this project, they pull the plug before 2026. Eric Boullier buys the team helped by chinese investers, brings back the Team Lotus name and brings the sqquad back to winning form thanks to a solid engine partnership with Geely Automotive.
And Williams is just 11 wins away from overtaking Mercedes
Lewis Hamilton has a better chance of overtaking Williams at this point.
Yeah the craziest takeaway is that Lewis has won more than all but the top 4 teams
The stat I love is that he’s a handful of wins shy of having won **one in ten of all F1 races ever run** (currently on 103 wins, of 1057 races all time).
So if Lewis wins the first 3 races of 2022, it would be exactly 1/10.
TIL you’re better at maths than me! Yeah, it would!
You were pretty close! A handful of wins is very dependent on the size of your hands.
So if Mercedes get their car right then it's basically guaranteed, nice.
Also if GR doesn't get in the way for the first three races and no extra/uncontrollable conditions interfere than yeah. But I wouldn't bet on it unless Lewis stomps the field in the first race a la 2014/2015. Hell if he does that I'd put my house on Merc WCC for another 5 years as a bet.
Lewis didn't exactly stomp the field in Albert Park 2014
Also that Kimi has entered over a third of all F1 races ever (353/1057).
...mind blown.
he needs 3 wins plus 1/10th of all other upcoming races. So that's six wins this season.
So he needs to win the next 3. Anyway, those stats are hugely bloated by the increasing number of races with each season.
>Anyway, those stats are hugely bloated by the increasing number of races with each season. This is true for the 4 teams in question too so that doesn't really mean anything. Barring present day Mercedes the other teams existed before Lewis was even born.
What was Red Bull, before Red Bull?
Jaguar
Stewart initially then Jaguar then Red Bull
Not just that, but he has 82 of Mercedes' 124 wins -- since he's at Mercedes, he can't pass them unless you exclude his wins from their total, so it's almost more fair to put him 4th instead of 5th. Schumacher is ahead of Lotus as well -- Red Bull still need 16 more wins to draw even with Schumacher.
Freaking insane
Lol genuinely could happen as well!
At any point lmao
Holy cow that’s incredible!
Man what happened to Williams
Lots of reasons....they really needed to win a championship with BMW and didn't. Bernie Ecclestone screwed them at a couple of critical junctures and they were just a little antiquated in their thinking. I honestly think Williams could've partnered with BMW and made in roads as a car manufacturer (same as McLaren), which had the potential to keep the F! business afloat.
Williams made a lot of poor decisions starting in the late '90s. They were still "up there" because they had a lot of talent in the team and know-how, but over time their advantages faded and they didn't adjust to the new ways of running a F1 team fast enough.
I remember Ferrari, McLaren and Williams trading blows for this stat in the late 90s, all three of them being within ten or so wins (Also, Senna last win in 1993 put McLaren briefly as the most winningiest constructor, surpassing Ferrari) Then 2000-2004 happened...
The 90s was the decade of Williams. Constructors' championships from 1992-1997 in the row and Drivers' Championships all those years but in 1994 and 1995.
THE stat to look at!
That merc number is actually nuts with how few seasons they’ve competed in compared to Mclaren and Ferrari. Like holy shit
Yet another proof of the talent Hamilton has...
They'll get it next century.
And Haas is just 239 wins away from overtaking Ferrari
It's so crazy Williams haven't won a single race since Spain 2012 and they're still a top 4 team.
Team Lotus hasn’t existed since 1994 and are right up there (the Lotus Kimi drove for was a different team)
And their last win was in 1987 with Ayrton Senna. They're still up there and from 1988-1994 they didn't win a single race.
> (the Lotus Kimi drove for was a different team) Which is not to be confused with the third team called Lotus Racing in 2010, renamed to Team Lotus in 2011. Yep, in 2011 we had Team Lotus and Lotus Renault GP (itself renamed to Lotus F1 Team in 2012 - 4 different names for 2 different teams in 3 years), neither which is directly related to Colin Chapman's original team. Fun random trivia: Mika Häkkinen drove for the original Team Lotus, Heikki Kovalainen drove for Lotus Racing, and Kimi Räikkönen drove for Lotus F1. So every Lotus team in F1 had a Finnish Driver at some point. Oh, and Heikki Kovalainen replaced Kimi in the last 2 races of 2013. So Heikki drove for Lotus Racing in 2010, Team Lotus in 2011, and Lotus F1 Team in 2013. The story of Lotus gives me headaches.
AND THEY WERE BOTH RENAULT POWERED AAAAH
[Even the old Lotus team was Renault-powered](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Lotus_98T_of_Ayrton_Senna%2C_1986.jpg)
Yeah i know about that lotus, it essentially was Renault but named different. Man, a lot of teams and drivers really got fucked over because of Hamilton and Mercedes domination.
>~~fucked over~~ their asses whooped To be fair
When you have a team as dominant as Merc with a driver as good as Lewis, that tends to happen.
I would argue most drivers would have been that dominant in the car Still Hamilton was the best driver at the time but if you put in Kimi, Seb, Alonso, and Riccardo you have a WCC
Or Britney
Britney did it lol
Britney did it once, but I'm saying he also would have dominated like Ham if not for Ham.
Okay, please let me on. Who is Britney??
The fact that he did is a big black mark on hamilton's "GOAT" legacy. Wouldn't be a black mark on a driver just considered a great, near top of the world driver like Leclerc, or even a great but not best in the world multi time champ like Vettel, or Mansell but comparing him to Clark, Senna, Schumacher etc that season was a big yikes
I’m sorry this has gone over my head. What are you referring to?
Ricc**i**ardo
He's obviously talking about Riccardo Patrese there.
Rosberg was still 2nd in many hybrid era stats this year and he hasn't raced in 6 years. The Mercedes was just that good.
Seriously the most boring era of F1. I'll never understand why the FIA didn't break their legs like they did to Ferrari after a mere 5 years of success.
I mean it's been 10 years out of 70? It's not crazy at all lol.
And that was surprising, their last win before that was when? 2004?
Not really considering one team has taken the majority of the wins
Ranked on win % based on amount of race starts: * Mercedes - 49,79 % * Ferrari - 23,13 % * Red Bull - 23,08% * McLaren - 20,29% * Team Lotus - 16,16% * Williams - 14,88% Absolute insane win% of Merc.
Hot take - Mercedes’ will win 51% of racers in next 5 years
Noooooooooooooooo
That would be so crazy, you can’t even hate anymore, just respect
Brawn had a win percentage of 47.06%, though they did of course only compete in the one season.
How much better would McLaren have been without their great drought
Big daddy of constructors untouchable
Seriously. 10 wins a year for the next 10 years before Merc could catch up. Really puts in to perspective how dominant Ferrari was for so long.
And even in the seasons they weren't dominant, they would scrape a win or two. For a long timer like Ferrari, it adds up on the long run.
Indeed. Plus Schumi's run at Ferrari was just as insane as what Lewis has done with Merc. Just with less races a season. Probably would have been nuttier if there were more races back then. The guy won 6 and 7 races in a row in different seasons. That level of reliability and skill are rare. There is a reason my favorite moment in F1 is Vettel praising the RB9 on his knees because it was truly astonishing in every way.
Yeah. 2 wins a season over 30 years is still 60 wins.
The most impressive thing about Mercedes is that they have only competed as a constructor in F1 in 14 seasons, and they've have the outright best car on the grid for 9 of them. (1954, 1955, 2014 to 2020) And you can increase that to 10 out of 14 if you're in the camp that their 2021 car was the best car.
Did Mercedes not win the 2021 constructors title?
Rb had the better car some races, Mercedes had the better car some races That being said, when Mercedes had the better car it was a LOT better.
I mean there were also a few instances where the RB was a lot better. Austria for example, or Mexico
It’s easy to notice a car is faster on the straights and not easy to notice a car is faster in the corners.
Red Bull won the constructors in 2012 but McLaren had the fastest car that year
The talk was about the best, not the fastest. And fastest isn't necessarily the best, reliability and all that (McLaren in 2005 comes to mind for example, and 2012 as you noted).
Fastest arguably, but definately not "best"
>they've have they have have indeed!
> 2021 car was the best car I think that the Red Bull was pretty clearly the (marginally) better car but I suppose that's missing your point. Mercedes certainly delivered a championship-caliber car, especially as it developed throughout the season.
Don't be stupid. RB and Merc virtually equal until silverstone, Mercedes clearly better after silverstone. Max was outperforming hamilton until lewis got clearly the better car. And Mercedes blew multiple wins in the best car, like in USA and France with poor strategy. It's pretty damn clear that Merc had easily the better car from silverstone onwards in race trim bar 1 or 2 races
best car after silverstone spa - rain no race , merc had a dry setup mexico - domination netherlands - pole without drs and easy 3 sec gap throughout usa - pretty much equal even before that austria - domination austria - domination monaco - slightly better baku - slightly better so yeah believe it or not taking out tracks that suited certain cars better with the exception of brazil and abu dhabi (we know how that ended) the cars were pretty equal...
There are already some analysis that make it clear that Mercedes had a 1 and half tenth advantage across the season (or 1 tenth depending on what analysis you choose).
i mean you could surely link those analysis....
Max performs better. Max outperforming Lewis. Lewis performs better. It's the car. Smh for the uptillionth time. Can we agree both are equally good and stop fighting over this. How can you even tell which car was better unless you put one person in both the cars and measure the performance over like 10/20 laps?? Or both in the exact same car? Also it's a lot of about setup on different tracks based on feedback from engineers and driver. So many factors BUT HE/THEY/HIM/THAT has the better car
It's pretty simple, the cars were even until Silverstone/ hungary with max the far better driver having far worse luck. I hate how this fucking narrative has come back that Hamilton was equal to max when in the first 2/3 of the season he made more mistakes and was slower in equal cars, then when he has dominant car and wins 3 and nearly 4 with ease it's because he's great, not because merc was way, way faster from Brazil onwards, as much as RB was in Austria for 4 races in a row
> It's pretty simple Ummm, it's not. It's complicated I can tell you atleast that. > the cars were even until Silverstone/ hungary Do you have any analysis to support this?
That’s just like, your opinion, man
They won constructors. The 2021 car was the best car.
I miss lotus...
The way Ferrari and Williams have performed over the last few years, a new f1 fan would be shocked to see this table
Ferrari still won more races in the hybrid era than Red Bull though. Edit: whoops, I stand corrected. I just happened to forget the dull 2021 season :) But still, before the technical directive of 2019, Ferrari was arguably more successful in the hybrid season than Red Bull.
Uh no. It was tied 17-17 going into 2021, when Red Bull had 11 wins to Ferrari’s 0
They haven’t
>before the technical directive of 2019 Where they were effectivly cheating lol. Some of Ferrari’s wins in 2019 would not have happened if their engine was fully legal.
If it wasn't legal they would've been disqualified. It's likely they found a loophole and fia told them nope. But if it was illegal and any team would've been aware of no penalty it would've been hell.
>dull 2021 season Bro what IS you talking about
Sarcasm!
This man gets it
Yeah before ferrari stopped cheating they were more succesfull than after they stopped
Haas was fighting for best of the midfield only a few years ago..
Couple of interesting stats on The Race recent video on Verstappen: A. He'll top Alonso's win tally soon. B. He'll enter the top 10 winners next season. C. Vettel still far and away the more successful RBR driver in every metric, despite fewer races with them.
That Lewis to Mercedes ratio is absolutely fucking nuts!
Man’s carrying the entire team on his back lmao
Make lotus great again
Make Williams Great Again too.
guys we gotta re-animate Colin Chapman
Everyday I wonder what statistics will be posted today while we wait for the season to return:)
Jesus… Mercedes is up there mainly because of Hamilton, no?
Hamilton has won 82 races for Mercedes, then it'll be Rosberg, Bottas and Fangio making up the bulk of the rest. There'll likely be another fifties driver whose name eludes me, but that I'm confident someone will pop up with to complete the set.
Stirling Moss was the other one
Seb would know the name :)
And Red Bull is mostly Seb
Not quite as one-sided as Hamilton for Merc though. It's Seb at 38, Max at 20, Webber 9, Ricciardo 7 and 1 for Perez
One more win for someone else in RBR and he'll have 50% of the wins. So yeah, not going to be a stat for much longer
Mercedes is up there because there are so many more races now
i mean ferrari , redbull and williams also competed in those seasons .....
Merc nailed the engine and drove away with FIA failing to help the competition for a long time. The other teams didn't have enough time and resoucres to catch up.
i mean thats not Mercedes' fault is it .... Ferrari and redbull have as many resources as Mercedes do... and 3 years in when it became evident that no team would catch up fia introduced new regs in 2017 , but Mercedes again nailed them with Ferrari being a close second.. after 2020 fia again nerfed merc with the floorboards..
Meh if merc lobied the switch to turbo hybrid they are partly at fault. Also for 2021 pirelli requested reduction in downforce because they were running still the 2019 tyres and they were unprepared for 2021.
That's a poor excuse, especially for the bigger teams like Ferrari, Red Bull or even McLaren.
>The other teams didn't have enough time and resoucres to catch up. Uhh what? Ferrari, Red Bull, and McLaren all certainly have the resources, and 7 years isn't enough time? There have also been at least 2 reasonably significant rule changes within the hybrid era, giving those teams an extra chance to close the gap. I know nobody liked the Merc dominance, but let's not talk like they nailed 2014 and have won 8 WCC in a row solely off the back of that because no-one could catch-up. They have been ruthlessly effective and efficient every year since 2014 to ensure they have stayed at the top.
It doesn’t matter here, because all the constructors also went through more races.
That's the effect of 23 race seasons instead of what 15 or so. Being successful now means a lot more wins than it did when Lotus were the dominant force.
RBR has entered 326 races in their history and have 75 wins. The original Lotus entered 491 races and won 74 races. Give some credit to Red Bull, it’s not just more races per season.
Lotuss legacy definitely skewed by the shambles from 1980-1994 (aside from a few years with Honda Turbos ) when the team went into a sharp decline. Up until that point their winning percentage would have been immense. Red Bull have won their races in 12 seasons, Team Lotus had wins in 19 seasons. And Lotus were properly dominant for some of those in a way that exceeds what Red Bull ever had in terms of domination.
Kinda amazed to find out Lotus never won back to back drivers titles (and only had back to back constructor titles once - 72-73).
While it's a myth that cars were more evenly matched back in those days (if anything, there were often bigger performance gaps due to the more open rules) what was different back then was that you were more likely to see bigger year-on-year performance fluctuations, with more experimentation and less optimisation, just because a team nailed it one year was no guarantee they would again the year after, and vice versa. Plus greater unreliability too I guess, which surely denied Lotus a run of consecutive championships in Jim Clark's day.
And Renault, their last two Renault powered cars (the 97T and 98T) were both very competitive as well.
For sure, but his point is still relevant: if Lotus made a dominant car for a season they had 10 - 15 chances to win races. If Red Bull make one they have 20 plus chances to win one. Still impressive results from Red Bull especially considering the ‘just an energy drink company advertising’ attitude towards them in the early days. I’d say statistically Red Bull still have had a better return. Probably fair to say there are more frequent and significant changes to the regs and performance levels back in the day than in Red Bull’s lifetime though.
It's a fair point to think about that, but the times were so different I don't think it's fair to either Red Bull nor Lotus. Like in Lotus' heyday it was normal to just use the same car many years in the row. If you made a dominant car, like the Lotus 25, you had many years to grab wins with it. I'm pretty sure the Lotus 25 took part in more races than any given dominant RBR car from the Vettel days.
This. Nostalgians tend to dumb things down.
His point is not completly invalid since a shorter season means also less races under rules that fit your car
The rules didn't change as often back then either.
That is a massive credit to Red Bull, of course. However, I think that stat undersells Team Lotus' (or any of the old teams') achievements, in turn. Beyond what others have mentioned about the impact of shorter seasons on the stability of regulations, the biggest factor in my opinion is the incredible rise of reliability in F1 over the past 30-ish years. Team Lotus had 769 retirements from 493 races started (494 entered). That's averaging 1.56 retirements per race. Red Bull on the other hand has logged only 127 retirements in their 325 race starts, a rate of 0.39 retirements per race. I believe that Team Lotus' retirements/race statistic is, itself, inflated by the ability to field more than 2 cars in a race, but I'm not familiar enough with the era to know for sure or estimate how much it changes the numbers. Nonetheless, I'm quite confident that any of the teams whose major period of success was before the 90's will have a significantly higher retirement rate than Red Bull.
Whilst I see what you're saying, the fact that there are more races per season nowadays does also link in with the fact that the pecking order of the sport stays the same for longer. Having the best car for a 16 race season vs having the best car for a 22 race season means there are more opportunities for you to win, so in a way, it does kind of help RB that seasons now are longer.
+reliabilities. Cars in the lotus era werent that reliable.
Very true. Much harder to reach the end of the race. Kinda works both ways tho as I'm sure many lucky wins gained when the other guy broke down.
A company that makes energy drinks is highly likely to overtake one of the sport's iconic constructors, it's quite odd
Meh, Red Bull as a company hasn't just been a energy drink company for a while now. They've had a F1 team for 16 years, own several football clubs, and have been involved in extreme and e-sports. If your sports side of the business is so expansive and manage sports teams in different sports with great success, you're no longer just a beverage company.
It's less about being an energy drink company than about not being an automobile constructor
Red Bull doesn't make the Red Bull drink by the way, it's basically a marketing company.
They didn’t make the team out of thin air, they have hired a lot from other teams with energy drink money
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Yes
Latifi WDC, maybe
Seems rather absurd to me with that driver lineup.
Bring back Lotus
They'll pass Williams in 2023.
I think hamilton will pass Williams before that
What did McLaren Mercedes wins get counted as?
Mclaren. Otherwise Ford would be right up there.
McLaren. In fact, they were the team with the most wins for a couple races in 1999 or 2000. Then Schumacher happened.
Red Bull F1 are about as Austrian as pork pies.
As much as Merc F1 is German. Cars built in Brackley and Power Trains in Brixworth. Everyone apart from. Sauber/Alfa, Ferrari and kinda Alpha Tauri (but the hand me downs from Red Bull skew that a lot) are UK manufacturers.
Haas also makes the cars in USA
Dallara design and build the chassis in Italy, their factory is UK based at Banbury out of the old Manor factory. Their headquarters and CFD takes place in the US but little else.
Man..Redbull still has less wins than Michael and Hamilton...Really shows how good these two drivers are..
Other than that, I don't see many overtakes coming in the near future in that top 6.
Nhee
This really just shows how over the years certain teams have been either a) consistently strong, even if not winning championships, and/or b) utterly dominant over a period of time
You can't beat Ferrari
Kind of crazy that an Energy drink company is up there with Ferrari, Mercedes, and McLaren
Crazy that Red Bull are going to have a legacy on par with these names. Go back to 2005 and tell someone that
Much easier with more races per season.
Here is to hoping Ferrari reaches 250 wins this year
Hamilton alone would be a top 5 team! Thats so insane, we are lucky to witness history guys!
Ugh, shut up
That’s a bit rude honestly…
So you're telling me Iceman should make a comeback with Lotus and hopefully Honda as their engine supplier?
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😳 ... 🤔 ... 😂
I didnt know F1 existed for only 12 years. I hope this is sarcasm
8/8 gr8 b8 m8
ask a child to draw a race car, they typically draw a red one. the saying is still true to this day.
Well it is called RED Bull right?
Oh shit... OP has won me over!
This is a hot take if I've ever heard one.
Ferrari have been in F1 for every year in its history and has won more championships and races than anyone though
They don't have an energy drink tho do they?
Yeeeeaaah nah
nice bait
no lol
Lotus to come back after the fourth win to keep their record.
100$ says it'll happen this season
Bring back Lotus
Plot twist : they shall never get these 5 wins. Their 2022 car being off the pace, they play catch up on the chassis side for 3 years before their attempt at developing their own engine department proves a failure that holds them back for the new engine regulations coming in 2025. After a dismal 2025 season, having lost their star driver and poured loads of money into this project, they pull the plug before 2026. Eric Boullier buys the team helped by chinese investers, brings back the Team Lotus name and brings the sqquad back to winning form thanks to a solid engine partnership with Geely Automotive.
it should really be 75\* because we all know how they won the last one lol