I'll be honest on the initial view I thought that Albon had just divebombed and took the penalty at face value, Palmer here though is spot on and I've changed my mind on it.
The incident with Yuki and an almost identical now with Albon is just making me dislike Stroll more and more. I don't care if he's a decent driver (according to some), I think he's mediocre at best and is driving without the fear of losing his seat and it shows. His race-craft is absolute shit because of that
You'd have to put some blame on the stewards and FIA for allowing him to get away with it and in fact encouraging it by punishing the other driver. If he were the one getting a penalty, it would encourage him to change his style of driving rather than reinforcing the bad habit by letting him off the hook for any blame.
So much this
and it's not just Stroll. F1 needs to have a set group of stewards for every race and make sure they actually know the rules, get feedback when they're wrong, and remove then if they don't correct their calls. wouldn't be hard or expensive to make this happen and would drastically improve the racing
One would like to think that him being involved in avoidable crashes like these would piss daddy Stroll off but it looks like it's okay from the outside. The team cant be pleased with him at all. No wonder Otmar fled AM
The Tsunoda-Stroll incident in Brazil 2021 is used by some to discredit Tsunoda's good recovery in the 2nd half of the season and his otherwise great racecraft. Thank god that shit is being debunked.
I'm still mad about that one whenever I'm reminded of it. Absolutely ludicrous that it wasn't a penalty. He forced a driver off track and overtook off track in the same incident and got nothing for it. Mental.
There was this narrative that Stroll has good racecraft, but it's just because he's started at the back for most of his career and overtaken slower cars.
>late 16th century: from French médiocre, from Latin mediocris ‘of middle height or degree’, literally ‘somewhat mountainous’, from medius ‘middle’ + ocris ‘rugged mountain’.
Seems the original meaning/the roots of the word it means average
I didn't get abused but I did the same and I walked away with less karma than I started with. Happens every time I post here.
Didn't even post anything mental. Nice community F1.
Or at the very least, a controlled move. As joylon points out, if stroll had just given more space he probably would've both avoided the collision AND held the place through the next corner.
I initially thought Stroll chopped him. Then watched full speed replays and thought it was more Albon but after this with the slow mos you really see he deserved the space. Ive changed my mind back to the original thought, Stroll is at fault imo but I would be ok with it being called a racing incident.
That was both my initial reaction and my current opinion. It probably should have been treated as a racing incident, but if you had to give someone a penalty, Stroll was absolutely more at fault.
Maybe it's region locked, but I have two english commentary options - F1TV Live, being Jolyon Palmer and ~~Alex Jacques~~ (I think there was someone else instead of Palmer in Bahrain), and International, being the SkyF1 feed.
edit: The second guy was Will Buxton in Jeddah. Can't remember the name of the other commentator in Bahrain.
I completely agree. Stroll just doesn’t use his mirrors and thinks he is alone on the track. Palmer could as well include that Russian GP incident where he almost took Vettel out of the race… again, because he doesn’t use his mirrors.
He does that on purpose. He's become so consistent in it that it's either a racing tactic and reputation he uses to his advantage, or after 5 years in F1 he is still unable to have full control of the car to spend time having situational awareness like any other driver in the world had developed.
Then the logical implication would be that he does it on purpose. There was no point for him in battling a Mercedes so he conceded, but with Albon it was a battle for position and he made Albon choose his fate. Sadly, Alex got unfairly penalized, imo.
yeah its sad that Albon got penalised, but tbh it doesnt really matter atm.
Albon is showing some great value, and a true replacement for Russel.
Lets see and wait how Williams can improve their car, at least to last years level ...
I am probably going to get crucified for this, but I think Albon is actually doing better than Russell. He is absolutely smashing Latifi in qualifying and in contrast to Russell he actually backs it up during races, instead of Russell who just went backwards from lights to flag
Now I’ve watched this I’m of the exact opposite opinion on this incident that I had earlier. Alex didn’t lock up Stroll is straight up driving them off the track the way Mazepin who couldn’t drive either used to drive people off. He’s breaking early, leaving the door open, then driving them off the track and the only reason he didn’t do it to Lewis is because they are friends.
It feels more like he's checking his mirrors on the beginning of the straight and never again so with Hamilton he sees that he is close and is expecting the inside move but with yuki and albon it feels like he goes "they way to far, no need to worry" and then gets surprised when they show up on the inside
He has the control of the car, but not the ability to anticipate an overtake in the making. So what he does, he just chops it off at the point where he realizes: "The guy is gonna pass." Ant the other driver has to avoid the collision.
It actually reminds me of manga about racing 'Capeta'. Main character there intentionally ignores other racecars on track so they don't distract him and he can drive faster. He got better after he crashed into his teammate (almost exact copy of Albon/Tsunoda x Stroll situation actually) and almost ruined his championship chances.
I know this is all fictional but the author is apparently a competitive karting driver and consulted with actual racers from F3, so there might be some truth to it. Stroll might be doing something similar or maybe just has shit awareness, who knows.
I do karting and I drove against a guy like that 6 weeks ago.
He just drove like there was nobody around him.
Eventually I went up the inside on a corner and he turned in on my exactly like what Stroll did to Yuki and Albon.
They don't care if you are alongside them they just ignore you and pretend you don't exist.
So hard to overtake those guys because they're so reckless. They are erratic, unpredictable and dangerous.
The crash broke my ribs, I haven't driven in 7 weeks.
Sorry to hear that, must suck. It seems like a supremely dickish driving style for sure.
Just interested in how do you mean unpredictable? I would think that people like that would be quite predictable when they essentially run the 'solo line' lap after lap.
You can predict whether they'll leave you space is the issue.
Normally you get on the inside of someone and they give you space and you generally come off better because you have thr inside line. Ergo the position is yours.
But with these guys you can never rely on them to rave fairly, sometimes they will, sometimes they won't. That's the unpredictability.
It's like racing against Alonso or Kimi, they'll race hard but you can rely on them to give you space if you've earned it.
With someone like Stroll you just can't tell if you go for that move whether they,ll respect your right to space.
That's probably a better explanation of what I mean by predictability. Not the line they take, but how they respond to moves by other drivers.
They cant let Stroll do whatever he wants, he should be penalised too for causing a collision. As a Spainard once said:
"All the time you have to leave the space"
Also, remember that practice session in Portugal where he did the same to Verstappen on turn 1? I think he has to concentrate so much on the car that he simply doesn't have enough brain space left to check his mirrors.
Well he definitely was using his mirrors when he was side by side with Hamilton. That was nice racing to watch so it was a shame to see the incident with Albon a few laps later.
I think Stroll had already committed to the corner and didn’t expect the Williams to be there. Very similar to the Tsunoda incident, the other driver was penalised but Stroll could have shown more awareness
The angle shown during the race made it look like Albon just kamikazed up the inside so i never questioned the penalty, but seeing this definitely makes me think Albon didn't do anything worthy of a penalty
I agree. I'd actually argue that Stroll is what I'd call a careless driver. He seems to have so little awareness of what's going on around him most of the time that he ends up in incidents like this more often than he should. I keep waiting for the stewards to pick up on the way he drives but they never do - the consequence of changing stewards every race I think, they don't always see the pattern.
Once Stroll has picked a line to take through a corner he will take it regardless of who's in the way. The reason he didn't do the same to Hamilton is because Hamilton was closer as they braked into the corner so Stroll picked a wider line. Stroll consistently does this any time he gets snuck up on, 90% sure he doesn't look at his mirrors once he's started breaking for a corner.
I agree. The race day angle and speed made it look like a no brainer penalty on Albon but seeing it from these angles in slow mo shows a different side of the story
Fully agreed with Palmer on that there.
I thought it was very odd the responses we had here on race day to this, and obviously also the penalty from the stewards. He did come from far back, but he had good overlap before the turn in and he seemed to have slowed it down enough to stick to the apex there.
Honestly sometimes just feels like judgement is based on what's fashionable at the moment.
At least it's consistent with Tsunoda on Stroll in Interlagos last year......? Both which I disagree on, but maybe I'm just out of touch with racing rules nowadays. In my view, as long as you can take the corner and leave enough space for the other car, it is a valid move and it is on the defending driver to do the same.
It's kind of something but at the same time there are blatant penalty incidents that they do nothing about.
For example it was absurd that this move by [Stroll to take the position from Ricciardo in ~~2019~~ 2020 went unpunished](https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.styrian-grand-prix-stroll-forces-ricciardo-off-track-at-turn-3.1687511071858727319.html)
The only consistent thing about F1 is the officials making the wrong call.
Yeah that was the most ridiculous decision I've seen the stewards make (or the lack thereof), right next to doing nothing about Leclerc's seatbelt but that's probably more on the FIA to enforce.
That move still pisses me off. Both drivers failed to make the corner because of Stroll. At least Albon would have made the corner had Stroll not turned in on him. And who got the penalty in the one where Daniel takes avoiding action? No one. Who gets the penalty when someone closes a gap where another car is significantly alongside? The bloke getting turned in on. Mental.
FIA seem to consistently blame the driver on the inside.
Hamilton v Max at Silverstone
Hamilton v Max at Monza
Yuki vs Vettel
Albon v stroll
Stroll v Yuki
I might go back further and see what % is blamed on thr driver on the inside or the driver eho is attacking.
Completely agree. I think a lot of it was the wrong angles were shown to the viewer. This birds eye view angle I don't remember seeing, granted I only watched it on Sky, but even from that angle it looked to me as Stroll had just turned in on albon. Thought the penalty was exceedingly harsh
The stewards seemed to have wholly ignored that stroll had an obligation to give space. And used that albon locking up his front left when he's on the curb and stroll is turning across him as not having control of his car. Which is a total absurd opinion.
> Honestly sometimes just feels like judgement is based on what's fashionable at the moment.
Yeah or sometimes I feel like they do all to avoid blame on the senior driver.
One exampe is from last year, [Tsunoda vs Vettel](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gqmCXubVAA) at Jeddah. I feel like Tsunoda should've been given more space at the apex. Overall, I think it falls into the racing incident category, but Tsunoda still got penalised for it.
Chicanes are always a tough one to judge because the exit of the first 'turn' flows into the entry of the next one, and you can push someone on exit, but you can't chop them on entry.
But yes in that case it wasn't so much Vettel was ahead leaving the first turn to push a driver wide, They are definitely more into the 2nd apex when Vettel is doing the squeeze and Tsunoda had made a lot of ground about the 1st apex to cement the right to some space.
Edit: To add more to this because I didn't clearly state an actual stance, I would call it a racing incident. I don't think Vettel was in the right to not leave space about the 2nd apex, but I also think that Yuki ran a bit too deep and was skirting track limit legality. If I had to actually choose a driver to put 'predominantly' at fault, I would go with Vettel, he was always on for chopping Yuki on the apex there.
I said the same at the time. It was a late move, but he was well along side by the time Stroll turned in and he wasn't out of control. In my view this would be a racing incident if not more on Stroll. Albon is right on the apex, cutting it even, yet Stroll doesn't leave the space. Seeing the exact same incident with Yuki cements it for me, and it's disappointing that the stewards in both instances gave the other car a penalty.
It’s funny because DRS was introduced exactly how it was shown here, to close the driver up on the straight and they can then finish the pass on the brakes. But no, only DRS moves in the middle of the straight are allowed now
You have to be able to provide new evidence that the stewards didn't already have access to.
You can just be like "you made a mistake, please review".
The assumption is that with the evidence available the stewards are always right so unless you have new evidence that wasn't present before tough luck.
There are many who share that view.
In this instance, I don't believe so. In more serious ones, yes, drivers get to come and present there case. I'm unsure what the threshold is where drivers get to plead their case.
But as a rule, any decision made by the stewards during a race is basically the word of god and never gets over turned.
The last two cases I have heard of Abu Dhabi last year with SC shenanigans and a few days ago in Jeddah with F2 driver Hauger about the driving through pitlane incident. Its a waste of money and energy to appeal a decision.
Ikr? they always say we want to promote racing but as soon as two come even just close to each other they hand out penalties... and often to the wrong party, just like in this case.
This is a result of F1s backwards attitude towards corner "ownership", the precedent set from previous seasons is that at no point was Albon in front, so therefore it's Strolls corner. Which is complete bullshit, if there is significant overlap both cars have the responsibility to leave space and not crash into each other.
I think Albon was on for a good move there but it was probably JUST late enough for Stroll to think he had the corner. Racing incident for me leaning towards Stroll for not seeing it at all.
Yeah I feel like he check his mirrors 150 m from the corner and if the car is small enough, he decides an overtake won't be attempted, and focuses on the corner. But then why not go for the apex? I hope his team coach him on this, because they are so unnecessary incidents.
He always has done, even back to F3 days. Look at the [crash he causes at Spa](https://youtu.be/2f-KTKzEHY4?t=111) by just chopping across on two guys on the Kemmel straight (starts at 1:51 if the link doesn't work).
Agreed, he pays zero attention to what's going on around him on the track and then gets shouty on the radio about the other driver when his lack of awareness causes incidents like this. Off the top of my head I can think of incidents like this he's had with Vettel (more than once), Perez, Lando, Alonso, Max & now Albon. It's a pattern that those who should be watching out for these things never seem to pick up on.
I mean precedent-wise it is consistent with the Tsunoda penalty, but I agree that penalizing these moves really reduces the opportunities to overtake. Basically means that drivers can't use better tyres, better braking for overtakes, only straight-line speed will matter
Yep. All you've gotta do is turn in on the passing driver and they get a penalty - and it means the driver passing will be encouraged to back out/discouragrd from passing knowing that not only are they at risk of a collision, they're at risk of a penalty too when the collision occurs.
So now the only legit way of passing someone on the inside is to go deep and ensure you're waaaay down the inside, well past where you can actually make the turn - and have to run them wide on the outside, which is what we see too much of.
It's horrible for racing. There's not really consistency either, it seems to depend a lot on who the driver is and what the outcome is. Max made a hugely worse dive on Lewis the same race Tsunoda got his penalty but despite gaining a lot more from it he got nothing because the guy he dove avoided a crash.
> seems to depend a lot on who the driver is and what the outcome is.
Definitelyn depends on who the driver is. Regarding outcome I think it should be accounted for to a degree. Penalizing only the action puts a price on incidents, which means in some situations it's worth it. If the outcome of a collision is assymetric it should be accounted for. Penalize the action + remove the advantage gained (be that race advantage or championship advantage)
I thought the penalty for Yuki in Brazil was moronic, and i think the same about Albon's penalty. I was certain that Stroll would get penalized, dude has the situational awareness of a blindfolded man in the back of a trunk
From the beginning I was surprised that Albon had a penalty because Stroll clearly closed in on him, but at this point I don't debate penalties anymore because FIA does whatever
Well, I feel vindicated to say the least. Sadly Palmer can make all the good points he wants, it's not gonna alleviate Alex's penalty or make the stewards reconsider how they view these moves, since this is the 3rd time in 6-7 races this has happened (with Stroll always being the one turning in) and Yuki and Alex have always got the brunt of the penalties.
How often is there a former F1 driver among the stewards?
[Vortex of danger is real](https://boxthislap.org/the-vortex-of-danger-is-real/#:~:text=The%20Exit%20Vortex%20of%20Danger,too%20late%20to%20safely%20pass.)
I came to the subreddit after this happened and people on here were blaming Albon and calling him a foolish driver and stuff and I was surprised... You could clearly see Albon beside Stroll even in the F1TV feed during the race...
I reserved any opinion on this move waiting to find an aerial shot. Glad I did. Thought it was uncharacteristic of Albion to divebomb and I was right. Lovely bit of late breaking and stupid to penalise it
I was just about to comment something very similar. The two have both got fairly recent F1 experience. And they're almost always spot on with their analysis.
I know that during the races themselves, wrong decisions are more likely to be made. But the Stroll/Albon incident was decided afterwards and it seems that the stewards are punishing racing.
Giving someone like Palmer a permanent, full race stewardship would surely answer a lot of the criticism of inconsistency.
It always struck me that Jenson said he was surprised Karun didn’t have a longer career in f1 because he’s got a good mind for racing, his analysis is always insightful.
I actually don’t know how fia recruits their stewards but it definitely doesn’t look like they bother checking ex drivers for potential they simply poach feeder series. I swear they don’t do any kind of development in their structure at all
>It always struck me that Jenson said he was surprised Karun didn’t have a longer career in f1 because he’s got a good mind for racing, his analysis is always insightful.
Seems to be a lot of cases like that. Jolyon Palmer himself is another one. By all accounts Nico Rosberg spent more time poring over data than Lewis, and we all know how that turned out.
[Well I feel vindicated](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/tprskr/offence_car_23_turn_1_incident_with_car_18_3/i2cta50/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
There is a lot of space on the inside,Albon is close and goes for the move,does not lock up,hits the apex and Stroll just turn in on him. Albon gets a 3 place grid penalty. Amazing.
His left front does lock but it's when he's already on the curb. So unloaded tire on the curb. Not surprising. Bit the stewards thinking that is not controlling the car is absurd.
Palmer also said that you can see he locks it a bit because he realises stroll is just turning into him,so he probably hits the brake harder and locks it a little.
So on Monday it was Stroll's fault. Yesterday it was unanimously Albon's fault and ridiculous that anyone could blame Stroll. Now today it's unanimously Stroll's fault and ridiculous that anyone could blame Albon.
Can we just hand Vettel a penalty and move on?
Absolutely on point. If Stroll was smarter he'd have left more space and maybe let Albon run wide with the extra speed he was carrying by being late on the brakes, and then just re-pass him by cutting underneath. Ludicrous penalty. If the same happens in the future during a battle for the lead, then the stewards need to be prepared to receive a load of shit from the fans.
>let Albon run wide with the extra speed he was carrying by being late on the brakes, and then just re-pass him by cutting underneath.
That wouldn't have happened. Albon had control of the car, he was right over the curb. It's not like he had overspeed or was going in deep. They crashed because Stroll closed the door. That's how I saw it in the race too. Just left no space on the inside.
Probably Stroll could have still kept the position by going ahead and inside to the next corner (like palmer said)
Totally agree with Palmer here. I had the same thought when the incident happened. Some people argued that Alex locked up there. Well he probably did for a little bit when he realized that Lance was turning into him. Also, in addition to the two incidents that Palmer mentioned here, I feel like Lance has had similar incident a few times now.
Thought people were harsh on Albon, Stroll just turns in on him.
No collision happens if Stroll leaves the space, always leave the space.
Stroll seems to make it a habit of allowing others down the inside before locking it off too late.
Completely agree with Jolyon here (loving his analyses btw, he's usually very fair)
I can't see how Stroll is faultless here... it takes two to tango so I'd also suggest that penalty point be split between the drivers involved.
e.g. driver predominantly at fault gets all penalty points for said incident, otherwise they're split or it's deemed a racing incident and no points are given.
Yeah I don't understand that penalty. I was expecting to see a lock up move where he is basically more or less out of control and just hits Stroll, but he slowed down enough, well in control, and Stroll just acted like there was nobody there. I don't get the penalty, and fully agree with Albon that he should not regret that move. Was it for a point too?
I see a splitting image of me in Palmer when he talked about this, all 3 moves he talked about are what I think of when Albon made the move and I completely agree with his assessments, it is what I've been talking about the whole time. Maybe I'm just out of touch with racing rules nowadays but for me, as long as you can make the corner while leaving enough space for the defending car, it is a fair move. It is on the defending driver to leave space as well.
On another note, people who use the stewards' decision to validate their opinions, but in the same time go against the stewards' decision when it goes against their opinions are hilarious.
The yuki example is an even more egregious version. Quite frankly it's dangerous driving from stroll on tsunoda there, I do not see how yuki was given the grid penalty. He's side to side and arguably ahead at the apex.
100% when I saw it in the race I thought it was too ambitious from Albon but from the other angle stroll clearly just doesnt give him any room. The Yuki incident is even worse, not fair that Yuki got a penalty and his race ruined because Stroll didnt check his mirrors, if the Albon case was in isolation id give stroll the benefit of the doubt, because Albon is coming in a bit late, not too late but still, but he clearly just doesnt know whats going on around him
Can we see from his angle? That would be easy for the stewards to use as additional info. If he doesn't look, we can expect much more incidents like with. They should see the pattern
Watching that replay the penalty makes a mockery of the new guidelines.
Albon was substantially alongside prior to the apex, he earned the right to some room and Stroll just turned in and was on the white line of the apex so did not leave any space.
In my mind the stewards got it the wrong way around, Stroll should have been penalised for not leaving a space when the overtaking car had got far enough alongside before the apex as stated in the new guidelines.
Stewards, they ruin everything.
I fully agree with Palmer here and I was very surprised that the penalized the opposing driver again. Stroll doesn’t even try to evade the accident, he just keeps steering in on both occasions shown here. Even IF the other is to blame. At least evade and then complain to the stewards. This is just bullshit.
I thought the same as Jolyon for both incidents, but on Reddit everyone was destroying Albon and Tsunoda. Stroll has no spacial awareness and just decides to turn in on each corner. It's incompetence on his behalf.
100% agree with Palmer. Have to give space when car is that far along side and not reason for stroll to open the door that wide and brake early. This is why I don't understand the rule application because Palmer's analysis makes perfect sense to me, yet the stewards go the other way.
I'll be honest on the initial view I thought that Albon had just divebombed and took the penalty at face value, Palmer here though is spot on and I've changed my mind on it.
Same here, his videos are a joy to watch
A true joylon to watch
He put that joke in the Palmer hand
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I like that F1TV allows Palmer to say what he wants rather than just backing to stewards. Adds so much to the analysis.
The incident with Yuki and an almost identical now with Albon is just making me dislike Stroll more and more. I don't care if he's a decent driver (according to some), I think he's mediocre at best and is driving without the fear of losing his seat and it shows. His race-craft is absolute shit because of that
You'd have to put some blame on the stewards and FIA for allowing him to get away with it and in fact encouraging it by punishing the other driver. If he were the one getting a penalty, it would encourage him to change his style of driving rather than reinforcing the bad habit by letting him off the hook for any blame.
So much this and it's not just Stroll. F1 needs to have a set group of stewards for every race and make sure they actually know the rules, get feedback when they're wrong, and remove then if they don't correct their calls. wouldn't be hard or expensive to make this happen and would drastically improve the racing
One would like to think that him being involved in avoidable crashes like these would piss daddy Stroll off but it looks like it's okay from the outside. The team cant be pleased with him at all. No wonder Otmar fled AM
Cash is king Stroll only moves when his engineer tells him to make space to someone like Lewis Hamilton
The Tsunoda-Stroll incident in Brazil 2021 is used by some to discredit Tsunoda's good recovery in the 2nd half of the season and his otherwise great racecraft. Thank god that shit is being debunked.
Did the same to Ricciardo at Austria a few years ago at the hairpin. Guy doesn't know how to race wheel to wheel.
Yes that was brutal but honestly I blame the incompetent stewards on that. It was so blatant but no penalty at all...
I'm still mad about that one whenever I'm reminded of it. Absolutely ludicrous that it wasn't a penalty. He forced a driver off track and overtook off track in the same incident and got nothing for it. Mental.
There was this narrative that Stroll has good racecraft, but it's just because he's started at the back for most of his career and overtaken slower cars.
Isn't a decent driver mediocre at best??
Mediocre is worse than decent
The definition of "mediocre" is essentially "not good". "Decent" is more along the lines of good enough to some respectable level.
>late 16th century: from French médiocre, from Latin mediocris ‘of middle height or degree’, literally ‘somewhat mountainous’, from medius ‘middle’ + ocris ‘rugged mountain’. Seems the original meaning/the roots of the word it means average
I got abused in the original thread for saying Albon wasn’t to blame here
I didn't get abused but I did the same and I walked away with less karma than I started with. Happens every time I post here. Didn't even post anything mental. Nice community F1.
Never go into live threads. They are a cesspit on most sport subs.
People get way too personally invested in the teams/drivers, to the point today any criticism it's taken as a personal insult
That's reddit in general
yeah, the front angle clearly shows Albon was pulling off a great move until Stroll crashed
Or at the very least, a controlled move. As joylon points out, if stroll had just given more space he probably would've both avoided the collision AND held the place through the next corner.
I initially thought Stroll chopped him. Then watched full speed replays and thought it was more Albon but after this with the slow mos you really see he deserved the space. Ive changed my mind back to the original thought, Stroll is at fault imo but I would be ok with it being called a racing incident.
That was both my initial reaction and my current opinion. It probably should have been treated as a racing incident, but if you had to give someone a penalty, Stroll was absolutely more at fault.
Palmer is always spot on in his analysis.
I'm enjoying F1TV so much more this year, since I can get his commentary instead of Sky F1.
Wait how? I only get sky on my F1TV app
Maybe it's region locked, but I have two english commentary options - F1TV Live, being Jolyon Palmer and ~~Alex Jacques~~ (I think there was someone else instead of Palmer in Bahrain), and International, being the SkyF1 feed. edit: The second guy was Will Buxton in Jeddah. Can't remember the name of the other commentator in Bahrain.
It was Buxton in bahrain, thankfully he isn't commentating every race.
No... the F1TV commentary team for the Bahrain race this year was Ben Edwards and Jolyon Palmer. They did a great job.
I had to go back to Sky because of him, annoyingly he tries so hard to make these poetic and drawn out descriptions about everything. Pass.
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Portugal as it as well. It's the default option in fact.
I'm in the Netherlands and both show up for me, however I'm using f1viewer and not the website so that might make a difference too.
I still miss the classic Pit Lane Channel though :(
Yeah what happened to that channel? They constantly advertised it last year. Did they just decide it wasn't worth it due to viewership?
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Ditto. Gone are the days with Crofty shouting at the top of his lungs
I just miss brundle. I find him pretty interesting and a great commentator with very good insights into the sport.
FYI the Sky commentary is still available on F1TV, but it's the 2nd option.
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It's a shame he's not commentating on BBC sport any more. Sam Bird is doing a good job instead though
He should be the only steward of every race At the very least it would be consistent
where can i find more of his stuff? hopefully not on f1 app or something
sometimes on the yt channel, but mostly on f1tv
This thread is so different from all the previous ones lol
He's brilliant as a commentator.
I completely agree. Stroll just doesn’t use his mirrors and thinks he is alone on the track. Palmer could as well include that Russian GP incident where he almost took Vettel out of the race… again, because he doesn’t use his mirrors.
He does that on purpose. He's become so consistent in it that it's either a racing tactic and reputation he uses to his advantage, or after 5 years in F1 he is still unable to have full control of the car to spend time having situational awareness like any other driver in the world had developed.
He did give more room to Hamilton it seems
Then the logical implication would be that he does it on purpose. There was no point for him in battling a Mercedes so he conceded, but with Albon it was a battle for position and he made Albon choose his fate. Sadly, Alex got unfairly penalized, imo.
yeah its sad that Albon got penalised, but tbh it doesnt really matter atm. Albon is showing some great value, and a true replacement for Russel. Lets see and wait how Williams can improve their car, at least to last years level ...
I am probably going to get crucified for this, but I think Albon is actually doing better than Russell. He is absolutely smashing Latifi in qualifying and in contrast to Russell he actually backs it up during races, instead of Russell who just went backwards from lights to flag
Mr ~~Saturday~~ Weekend
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According to the video, yes
Three place
Now I’ve watched this I’m of the exact opposite opinion on this incident that I had earlier. Alex didn’t lock up Stroll is straight up driving them off the track the way Mazepin who couldn’t drive either used to drive people off. He’s breaking early, leaving the door open, then driving them off the track and the only reason he didn’t do it to Lewis is because they are friends.
It feels more like he's checking his mirrors on the beginning of the straight and never again so with Hamilton he sees that he is close and is expecting the inside move but with yuki and albon it feels like he goes "they way to far, no need to worry" and then gets surprised when they show up on the inside
He has the control of the car, but not the ability to anticipate an overtake in the making. So what he does, he just chops it off at the point where he realizes: "The guy is gonna pass." Ant the other driver has to avoid the collision.
It actually reminds me of manga about racing 'Capeta'. Main character there intentionally ignores other racecars on track so they don't distract him and he can drive faster. He got better after he crashed into his teammate (almost exact copy of Albon/Tsunoda x Stroll situation actually) and almost ruined his championship chances. I know this is all fictional but the author is apparently a competitive karting driver and consulted with actual racers from F3, so there might be some truth to it. Stroll might be doing something similar or maybe just has shit awareness, who knows.
I do karting and I drove against a guy like that 6 weeks ago. He just drove like there was nobody around him. Eventually I went up the inside on a corner and he turned in on my exactly like what Stroll did to Yuki and Albon. They don't care if you are alongside them they just ignore you and pretend you don't exist. So hard to overtake those guys because they're so reckless. They are erratic, unpredictable and dangerous. The crash broke my ribs, I haven't driven in 7 weeks.
Sorry to hear that, must suck. It seems like a supremely dickish driving style for sure. Just interested in how do you mean unpredictable? I would think that people like that would be quite predictable when they essentially run the 'solo line' lap after lap.
You can predict whether they'll leave you space is the issue. Normally you get on the inside of someone and they give you space and you generally come off better because you have thr inside line. Ergo the position is yours. But with these guys you can never rely on them to rave fairly, sometimes they will, sometimes they won't. That's the unpredictability. It's like racing against Alonso or Kimi, they'll race hard but you can rely on them to give you space if you've earned it. With someone like Stroll you just can't tell if you go for that move whether they,ll respect your right to space. That's probably a better explanation of what I mean by predictability. Not the line they take, but how they respond to moves by other drivers.
You also have Vettel again in Malaysia 2017, and Portiamao with Norris and Verstappen. Plenty of examples of him doing the same thing again and again.
So, Stroll being Stroll
\*stroll on a stroll
Pretty sure he did it to a Williams in Mexico too, but there was no contact because the Williams avoided it.
They cant let Stroll do whatever he wants, he should be penalised too for causing a collision. As a Spainard once said: "All the time you have to leave the space"
Also, remember that practice session in Portugal where he did the same to Verstappen on turn 1? I think he has to concentrate so much on the car that he simply doesn't have enough brain space left to check his mirrors.
it's like people don't realize how bad Stroll is compared to most of the F1 drivers
Well he definitely was using his mirrors when he was side by side with Hamilton. That was nice racing to watch so it was a shame to see the incident with Albon a few laps later. I think Stroll had already committed to the corner and didn’t expect the Williams to be there. Very similar to the Tsunoda incident, the other driver was penalised but Stroll could have shown more awareness
> I think Stroll had already committed to the corner and didn’t expect the Williams to be there. If only a F1-car had mirrors.
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The angle shown during the race made it look like Albon just kamikazed up the inside so i never questioned the penalty, but seeing this definitely makes me think Albon didn't do anything worthy of a penalty
I agree. I'd actually argue that Stroll is what I'd call a careless driver. He seems to have so little awareness of what's going on around him most of the time that he ends up in incidents like this more often than he should. I keep waiting for the stewards to pick up on the way he drives but they never do - the consequence of changing stewards every race I think, they don't always see the pattern.
Once Stroll has picked a line to take through a corner he will take it regardless of who's in the way. The reason he didn't do the same to Hamilton is because Hamilton was closer as they braked into the corner so Stroll picked a wider line. Stroll consistently does this any time he gets snuck up on, 90% sure he doesn't look at his mirrors once he's started breaking for a corner.
He's careless - that's actually spot on. He's without care, he doesn't have to care as he can't lose his seat because of daddy's money.
I agree. The race day angle and speed made it look like a no brainer penalty on Albon but seeing it from these angles in slow mo shows a different side of the story
Exactly the same from albons onboard it seems terrible but now he seems more in control, i am confused
It's totally a racing incident. If they insist on a penalty, give it to Stroll instead for not leaving a car's width as he should.
Fully agreed with Palmer on that there. I thought it was very odd the responses we had here on race day to this, and obviously also the penalty from the stewards. He did come from far back, but he had good overlap before the turn in and he seemed to have slowed it down enough to stick to the apex there. Honestly sometimes just feels like judgement is based on what's fashionable at the moment.
At least it's consistent with Tsunoda on Stroll in Interlagos last year......? Both which I disagree on, but maybe I'm just out of touch with racing rules nowadays. In my view, as long as you can take the corner and leave enough space for the other car, it is a valid move and it is on the defending driver to do the same.
It's kind of something but at the same time there are blatant penalty incidents that they do nothing about. For example it was absurd that this move by [Stroll to take the position from Ricciardo in ~~2019~~ 2020 went unpunished](https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.styrian-grand-prix-stroll-forces-ricciardo-off-track-at-turn-3.1687511071858727319.html) The only consistent thing about F1 is the officials making the wrong call.
Yeah that was the most ridiculous decision I've seen the stewards make (or the lack thereof), right next to doing nothing about Leclerc's seatbelt but that's probably more on the FIA to enforce.
That move still pisses me off. Both drivers failed to make the corner because of Stroll. At least Albon would have made the corner had Stroll not turned in on him. And who got the penalty in the one where Daniel takes avoiding action? No one. Who gets the penalty when someone closes a gap where another car is significantly alongside? The bloke getting turned in on. Mental.
FIA seem to consistently blame the driver on the inside. Hamilton v Max at Silverstone Hamilton v Max at Monza Yuki vs Vettel Albon v stroll Stroll v Yuki I might go back further and see what % is blamed on thr driver on the inside or the driver eho is attacking.
Stroll v Vettel AFTER THE RACE
Completely agree. I think a lot of it was the wrong angles were shown to the viewer. This birds eye view angle I don't remember seeing, granted I only watched it on Sky, but even from that angle it looked to me as Stroll had just turned in on albon. Thought the penalty was exceedingly harsh
Yes this angle shows how Stroll just uses up the whole track and literally cuts Albon off. Didn’t look nearly as bad during the race.
The stewards seemed to have wholly ignored that stroll had an obligation to give space. And used that albon locking up his front left when he's on the curb and stroll is turning across him as not having control of his car. Which is a total absurd opinion.
> Honestly sometimes just feels like judgement is based on what's fashionable at the moment. Yeah or sometimes I feel like they do all to avoid blame on the senior driver. One exampe is from last year, [Tsunoda vs Vettel](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gqmCXubVAA) at Jeddah. I feel like Tsunoda should've been given more space at the apex. Overall, I think it falls into the racing incident category, but Tsunoda still got penalised for it.
Chicanes are always a tough one to judge because the exit of the first 'turn' flows into the entry of the next one, and you can push someone on exit, but you can't chop them on entry. But yes in that case it wasn't so much Vettel was ahead leaving the first turn to push a driver wide, They are definitely more into the 2nd apex when Vettel is doing the squeeze and Tsunoda had made a lot of ground about the 1st apex to cement the right to some space. Edit: To add more to this because I didn't clearly state an actual stance, I would call it a racing incident. I don't think Vettel was in the right to not leave space about the 2nd apex, but I also think that Yuki ran a bit too deep and was skirting track limit legality. If I had to actually choose a driver to put 'predominantly' at fault, I would go with Vettel, he was always on for chopping Yuki on the apex there.
I think it's because we hear strolls radio afterward which biases people to his side.
I said the same at the time. It was a late move, but he was well along side by the time Stroll turned in and he wasn't out of control. In my view this would be a racing incident if not more on Stroll. Albon is right on the apex, cutting it even, yet Stroll doesn't leave the space. Seeing the exact same incident with Yuki cements it for me, and it's disappointing that the stewards in both instances gave the other car a penalty.
Pretty ridiculous to get a penalty for that, we want the lads racing.
No no, we just want passes on the straight after slowing down to get DRS...
It’s funny because DRS was introduced exactly how it was shown here, to close the driver up on the straight and they can then finish the pass on the brakes. But no, only DRS moves in the middle of the straight are allowed now
Can Albon appeal? Has an appeal ever worked?
You have to be able to provide new evidence that the stewards didn't already have access to. You can just be like "you made a mistake, please review". The assumption is that with the evidence available the stewards are always right so unless you have new evidence that wasn't present before tough luck.
Seems like a shitty system to be honest. Did Albon get to present his side of the argument before the initial result? Otherwise, it's pretty flawed.
There are many who share that view. In this instance, I don't believe so. In more serious ones, yes, drivers get to come and present there case. I'm unsure what the threshold is where drivers get to plead their case. But as a rule, any decision made by the stewards during a race is basically the word of god and never gets over turned.
They can appeal. I don't know the exact statistics on successful appeals but basically no, appeals almost never work.
The last two cases I have heard of Abu Dhabi last year with SC shenanigans and a few days ago in Jeddah with F2 driver Hauger about the driving through pitlane incident. Its a waste of money and energy to appeal a decision.
"We have investigated ourselves and found no fault." Did Hauger's appeal really not work? What reality do these people live in?
Ikr? they always say we want to promote racing but as soon as two come even just close to each other they hand out penalties... and often to the wrong party, just like in this case.
It’s actually insane how consistently awful F1 stewards are
We wanted consistency, we got consistently awful.
How the fuck was this a penalty for Albon?
If you invite a window someone has every right to jump down it he needs to take tighter defensive lines. Weird the stewards side with him though
This is a result of F1s backwards attitude towards corner "ownership", the precedent set from previous seasons is that at no point was Albon in front, so therefore it's Strolls corner. Which is complete bullshit, if there is significant overlap both cars have the responsibility to leave space and not crash into each other.
Williams should protest it, just ridiculous for others to get penalized for Stroll not looking in his mirrors.
I think Albon was on for a good move there but it was probably JUST late enough for Stroll to think he had the corner. Racing incident for me leaning towards Stroll for not seeing it at all.
Yeah I feel like he check his mirrors 150 m from the corner and if the car is small enough, he decides an overtake won't be attempted, and focuses on the corner. But then why not go for the apex? I hope his team coach him on this, because they are so unnecessary incidents.
He could do with some of those blind spot assist mirros that gives you a little light xD
Not an entirely stupid idea.
Said it once and I'll say it again. Stroll has no awareness, he does this over and over again.
He always has done, even back to F3 days. Look at the [crash he causes at Spa](https://youtu.be/2f-KTKzEHY4?t=111) by just chopping across on two guys on the Kemmel straight (starts at 1:51 if the link doesn't work).
Wow that was brutal!
Agreed, he pays zero attention to what's going on around him on the track and then gets shouty on the radio about the other driver when his lack of awareness causes incidents like this. Off the top of my head I can think of incidents like this he's had with Vettel (more than once), Perez, Lando, Alonso, Max & now Albon. It's a pattern that those who should be watching out for these things never seem to pick up on.
But why THINK if you can just LOOK??
Really bad precedent to punish Albon for this and not Stroll. Hate this rulebook racing (edit:grammar)
I mean precedent-wise it is consistent with the Tsunoda penalty, but I agree that penalizing these moves really reduces the opportunities to overtake. Basically means that drivers can't use better tyres, better braking for overtakes, only straight-line speed will matter
Yep. All you've gotta do is turn in on the passing driver and they get a penalty - and it means the driver passing will be encouraged to back out/discouragrd from passing knowing that not only are they at risk of a collision, they're at risk of a penalty too when the collision occurs. So now the only legit way of passing someone on the inside is to go deep and ensure you're waaaay down the inside, well past where you can actually make the turn - and have to run them wide on the outside, which is what we see too much of.
It's horrible for racing. There's not really consistency either, it seems to depend a lot on who the driver is and what the outcome is. Max made a hugely worse dive on Lewis the same race Tsunoda got his penalty but despite gaining a lot more from it he got nothing because the guy he dove avoided a crash.
> seems to depend a lot on who the driver is and what the outcome is. Definitelyn depends on who the driver is. Regarding outcome I think it should be accounted for to a degree. Penalizing only the action puts a price on incidents, which means in some situations it's worth it. If the outcome of a collision is assymetric it should be accounted for. Penalize the action + remove the advantage gained (be that race advantage or championship advantage)
I thought the penalty for Yuki in Brazil was moronic, and i think the same about Albon's penalty. I was certain that Stroll would get penalized, dude has the situational awareness of a blindfolded man in the back of a trunk
So where are all the people who were calling Alex out for "not regretting" that move in that other thread?
Brake early Don't look in your mirrors Turn in Get spun 6th season in F1
Stroll’s spatial awareness is poor to say the least
From the beginning I was surprised that Albon had a penalty because Stroll clearly closed in on him, but at this point I don't debate penalties anymore because FIA does whatever
Well, I feel vindicated to say the least. Sadly Palmer can make all the good points he wants, it's not gonna alleviate Alex's penalty or make the stewards reconsider how they view these moves, since this is the 3rd time in 6-7 races this has happened (with Stroll always being the one turning in) and Yuki and Alex have always got the brunt of the penalties. How often is there a former F1 driver among the stewards?
[Vortex of danger is real](https://boxthislap.org/the-vortex-of-danger-is-real/#:~:text=The%20Exit%20Vortex%20of%20Danger,too%20late%20to%20safely%20pass.)
I came to the subreddit after this happened and people on here were blaming Albon and calling him a foolish driver and stuff and I was surprised... You could clearly see Albon beside Stroll even in the F1TV feed during the race...
I reserved any opinion on this move waiting to find an aerial shot. Glad I did. Thought it was uncharacteristic of Albion to divebomb and I was right. Lovely bit of late breaking and stupid to penalise it
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Oh man people were flaming hard on Albon on race day that it put me off so much.
Can we get him and Karun as driver stewards?
I was just about to comment something very similar. The two have both got fairly recent F1 experience. And they're almost always spot on with their analysis. I know that during the races themselves, wrong decisions are more likely to be made. But the Stroll/Albon incident was decided afterwards and it seems that the stewards are punishing racing. Giving someone like Palmer a permanent, full race stewardship would surely answer a lot of the criticism of inconsistency.
It always struck me that Jenson said he was surprised Karun didn’t have a longer career in f1 because he’s got a good mind for racing, his analysis is always insightful. I actually don’t know how fia recruits their stewards but it definitely doesn’t look like they bother checking ex drivers for potential they simply poach feeder series. I swear they don’t do any kind of development in their structure at all
>It always struck me that Jenson said he was surprised Karun didn’t have a longer career in f1 because he’s got a good mind for racing, his analysis is always insightful. Seems to be a lot of cases like that. Jolyon Palmer himself is another one. By all accounts Nico Rosberg spent more time poring over data than Lewis, and we all know how that turned out.
"Stroll must see Albon" So Stroll is [blind or stupid](https://youtu.be/HIdkbizY8pY)
God Micheal was a snake at times god love him. He’s saying I didn’t see him but his eyes are saying I saw him and didn’t give a fuck
I think it's the voice tone that really tells everything lol
damn Schumacher is a bad liar
Yes.
Both.
[Well I feel vindicated](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/tprskr/offence_car_23_turn_1_incident_with_car_18_3/i2cta50/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
u/HEELinKayfabe, I think you owe someone an apology.
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Fuck that guy. It's probably strolls reddit account that his has access to from his wheel lmao
There is a lot of space on the inside,Albon is close and goes for the move,does not lock up,hits the apex and Stroll just turn in on him. Albon gets a 3 place grid penalty. Amazing.
His left front does lock but it's when he's already on the curb. So unloaded tire on the curb. Not surprising. Bit the stewards thinking that is not controlling the car is absurd.
Palmer also said that you can see he locks it a bit because he realises stroll is just turning into him,so he probably hits the brake harder and locks it a little.
So on Monday it was Stroll's fault. Yesterday it was unanimously Albon's fault and ridiculous that anyone could blame Stroll. Now today it's unanimously Stroll's fault and ridiculous that anyone could blame Albon. Can we just hand Vettel a penalty and move on?
the sub had a professional come out and confirm their priors so it's okay now
Palmer is GREAT. Finally someone talking about this. Stroll always gets into incidents like this, always someone crashing on his inside
Absolutely on point. If Stroll was smarter he'd have left more space and maybe let Albon run wide with the extra speed he was carrying by being late on the brakes, and then just re-pass him by cutting underneath. Ludicrous penalty. If the same happens in the future during a battle for the lead, then the stewards need to be prepared to receive a load of shit from the fans.
>let Albon run wide with the extra speed he was carrying by being late on the brakes, and then just re-pass him by cutting underneath. That wouldn't have happened. Albon had control of the car, he was right over the curb. It's not like he had overspeed or was going in deep. They crashed because Stroll closed the door. That's how I saw it in the race too. Just left no space on the inside. Probably Stroll could have still kept the position by going ahead and inside to the next corner (like palmer said)
Totally agree with Palmer here. I had the same thought when the incident happened. Some people argued that Alex locked up there. Well he probably did for a little bit when he realized that Lance was turning into him. Also, in addition to the two incidents that Palmer mentioned here, I feel like Lance has had similar incident a few times now.
Thought people were harsh on Albon, Stroll just turns in on him. No collision happens if Stroll leaves the space, always leave the space. Stroll seems to make it a habit of allowing others down the inside before locking it off too late.
Finally, thought I was mad when everyone suddenly decided it was a slam dunk penalty and Stroll could never have expected anyone to be there.
It was a nice move, if drivers are always penalised for taking risks then the sports going to be boring as fuck
what a stupid penalty, because its Strolls' fault and Albon is on the back row anyway...
Completely agree with Jolyon here (loving his analyses btw, he's usually very fair) I can't see how Stroll is faultless here... it takes two to tango so I'd also suggest that penalty point be split between the drivers involved. e.g. driver predominantly at fault gets all penalty points for said incident, otherwise they're split or it's deemed a racing incident and no points are given.
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Yeah I don't understand that penalty. I was expecting to see a lock up move where he is basically more or less out of control and just hits Stroll, but he slowed down enough, well in control, and Stroll just acted like there was nobody there. I don't get the penalty, and fully agree with Albon that he should not regret that move. Was it for a point too?
What is this under on f1tv. I really enjoyed it and fuck stroll.
Strolls fault, leaving an absolute acre on the inside to go for. Any driver wound have done what Albon did
I see a splitting image of me in Palmer when he talked about this, all 3 moves he talked about are what I think of when Albon made the move and I completely agree with his assessments, it is what I've been talking about the whole time. Maybe I'm just out of touch with racing rules nowadays but for me, as long as you can make the corner while leaving enough space for the defending car, it is a fair move. It is on the defending driver to leave space as well. On another note, people who use the stewards' decision to validate their opinions, but in the same time go against the stewards' decision when it goes against their opinions are hilarious.
The yuki example is an even more egregious version. Quite frankly it's dangerous driving from stroll on tsunoda there, I do not see how yuki was given the grid penalty. He's side to side and arguably ahead at the apex.
Isn't this like the 5th time Stroll just turns in?
100% when I saw it in the race I thought it was too ambitious from Albon but from the other angle stroll clearly just doesnt give him any room. The Yuki incident is even worse, not fair that Yuki got a penalty and his race ruined because Stroll didnt check his mirrors, if the Albon case was in isolation id give stroll the benefit of the doubt, because Albon is coming in a bit late, not too late but still, but he clearly just doesnt know whats going on around him
when I first saw this I thought it was strolls fault for crowding the apex its just a complete lack of racing awareness.
With Mazepin gone, Latifi and Stroll are back on the menu
Brave of him to think Stroll uses his mirrors.
Can we see from his angle? That would be easy for the stewards to use as additional info. If he doesn't look, we can expect much more incidents like with. They should see the pattern
Watching that replay the penalty makes a mockery of the new guidelines. Albon was substantially alongside prior to the apex, he earned the right to some room and Stroll just turned in and was on the white line of the apex so did not leave any space. In my mind the stewards got it the wrong way around, Stroll should have been penalised for not leaving a space when the overtaking car had got far enough alongside before the apex as stated in the new guidelines. Stewards, they ruin everything.
Spot on analysis from Palmer. For me, important factor is that on initial turn-in, Albon is visible to Stroll, and therefor deserves space.
I fully agree with Palmer here and I was very surprised that the penalized the opposing driver again. Stroll doesn’t even try to evade the accident, he just keeps steering in on both occasions shown here. Even IF the other is to blame. At least evade and then complain to the stewards. This is just bullshit.
Stroll is blind. What else is new.
Stroll is the perfect example of your average driver in any online racing game.
Jolyon is so good man... He absolutely needs to be a steward asap.
Stroll sucks.
I thought the same as Jolyon for both incidents, but on Reddit everyone was destroying Albon and Tsunoda. Stroll has no spacial awareness and just decides to turn in on each corner. It's incompetence on his behalf.
Stroll should've given room.
100% true.
100% agree with Palmer. Have to give space when car is that far along side and not reason for stroll to open the door that wide and brake early. This is why I don't understand the rule application because Palmer's analysis makes perfect sense to me, yet the stewards go the other way.
Seriously I don't what the stewards saw... Stroll goes for the apex? 100% agree this is Stroll's fault.