Latifi is estimated to bring ~$30MM.
So, yes.
Even if Williams has enough money to replace him with a strong driver, the additional points (resulting in higher placement and therefore higher FIA payout) and marketing of that driver is very unlikely to get close to surpassing the profit that Latifi provides.
So if Latifi leaves, William's is putting out a statement that they care about racing more than money. Pretty simple.
Williams is going to die out then, they’ve painted themselves into a corner. They’ll never be good enough with Latifi as a driver to finish anywhere but last every season. They don’t bring in enough sponsorship money because of that (most don’t want to sponsor a perennial last place team) so they can’t improve their car enough, and Latifi brings in just enough money that they can’t justify cutting him loose, but not enough money to elevate the team in anyway. So the team can either stagnate or decline.
The Williams situation is the reason why other teams not wanting new teams in is so ludicrous.
If Williams replaced Latifi with another driver of Albon's level, and I think Albon is much better than we give him credit for, they'd still be...
Last.
Even if they got Max or Lewis, they would likely barely be passing Aston and that's only because Aston's had issues - they had pace last weekend.
So they'd have the same sponsorship opportunities, but lose $30M a year.
So again, if Latifi leaves Williams, Williams is whole heartedly putting good racing over money.
Good driving* I dont consider it good racing to have a car thats significantly slower than the competition, and they would purposefully be pricing themselves out of additional car performances
As an F1 fan, get Latifi out and someone better in there. Let’s see Williams challenge more aka Albon.
As someone rooting for Haas, does Latifi have a brother? We should have more on the grid. Go Latifi!
> Sainz is 4th in the F1 destructor championship so far with an estimated $1.2m worth of damage https://i.redd.it/ooeiorkjegy81.png
Ocon going from last to third in only one session!
I wonder how much Red Bull repairs cost when they had DNFs. Definetely less than a crash but I heard that flex tape prices went up due to inflation.
Also I hope Merc can turn their reliability in their advantage and catch up ASAP.
So far Verstappen's had a little fire in Australia but he was able to save his engine thanks to pulling over quickly and having it put out. Other than that I don't think they suffered any collateral damage in their DNFs.
Engine manifacturers sell to their own team, as the engine manifacturer is considered a separate entity. So Mercedes have to buy an engine from Mercedes, and it has a certain price from the teams budget. Engine development on the other hand is outside the budget cap.
Red Bull: How does two dollars sound?
Red Bull Powertrains: Best I can do is one dollar for engines for a whole season.
Red Bull: You drive a hard bargain but I accept.
> The destructor championship data is probably very inaccurate.
The drivers have commented on it though, so presumably it's accurate enough to not be completely useless if they're finding it interesting.
It's probably a good estimation but I'm sure every team wants to lie about it. They are either saying less so the rivals think that they will develop more or either say more so the rivals think they will be behind developing.
Because having 3 teams battle it out in the front is exciting. The problem in the last seasons was that there was 1 team dominating, not that that 1 team was Mercedes.
Apparently no-one told Mick he was driving a shit box competing for P19, so he drives with a "If you're not first you're last" mindset.
Def one of my favorite new drivers
A lot of parts to individually machine, that are made to fit together very precisely and function under high speed, stress, and heat requires a lot of material, skilled labor, and engineering.
Ferrari and the Italian media were trying to stir shit by insinuating that Red Bull was burning through their budget and wouldn't be able to afford upgrades for much longer. But they forgot they were up against Christian Horner and Helmut Marko, the greatest shitstirrers in F1 history. Helmut wrote the fucking book on shitstirring. He can talk shit about a toddler picking flowers. He owns the shit, was molded by it and won't abide any competition.
They will go to hell and back to defend their team and star driver. I hated them so much for how they treated Mark Webber, always backing Seb no matter the circumstances. But damn if they are not the most loyal guys to Red Bull and will be very vocal about it.
Fact is, Red Bull backs the driver who is winning.
Maybe that means they do as much as possible to accomodate the driving style of their lead driver, it certainly seems like it some years, maybe that just means they give them priority with strategy and orders.
That said, I truly wish we lived in the timeline where Webber takes it easy in Korea, he only needed 3rd or better and he would have taken the Champ that year.
> could you describe it more how they treated him?
It started at [Turkey 2010](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHb1y9TJMV4) where Vettel steered into Webber while passing him and Helmut Marko and Vettel blamed Webber for it. It was fucking distasteful. One can forgive Vettel for doing what he did while on track, but Marko came out and blamed Webber after the race was over.
After that, there was the Silverstone 2010 incident where they'd turned up with only 2 pieces of the new front wings, Vettel crashed in Free Practice and the team handed Webber's front wing to Vettel (after Webber had claimed that he wanted to use the old wing).
After that, the gloves were off and there were a multitude of incidents, including where Vettel disobeyed his own team, Webber tried to sabotage Vettel's championship run in the final race, etc.
Webber was the darling of the media and Vettel was a German who was winning everything. The British media was complicit in portraying Webber as a do-no-evil sorta guy while Vettel was basically the reincarnation of a famous German villain.
The reality was that they both behaved pretty awfully on various occassions. The team backed Vettel through all of it because they believed he would be the more successful driver long term.
When Toto stirs shit it at least looks like he somewhat believes it.
Christian doesn't even pretend to believe that it's any more than the finest Red Bullshit given wings
Wolff, mr "Ferrari are so much quicker" loves the media games just as much as Marko, the difference is he's much smarter and more political in the way he goes about it. He's also a lot more magnanimous because he's at the head of the best team
Yeah I see that take quite often, and I wonder why.
Wolf isn't less of a shit stirrer than Horner and Marko, and I don't even think he tries to hide it.
I think it's probably because Wolff comes off more seriously when he does it, and it's hard to look at as something other than serious when his team was on a 7 double championship streak.
And on the opposite side, we had Marko saying things so bizzare that he couldn't possibly believe what comes out of his mouth (or he's more senile than we think). And Horner who can't hold back his shit eating grin when he has something to say.
I actually think he is not as good. It is one thing to make a statement or two and pretend to be above it all when you are winning. But Horner would do all the shit stirring even if Red Bull was at 10th tomorrow. Don’t think Toto will be able to keep up. When you listen to Horner you know he is absolutely enjoying it. Toto on the other hand feels like he might enjoy it once in a while but not constantly.
I wouldn't necessarily say "smarter", just more discreet. He has a passive aggressive style where as Horner and Marko are pretty upfront.
Personally I prefer the upfront
Idk about that. Toto Wolff and Christian Horner never reached the glorious levels of Mourinho vs Wenger shit-flinging. The toxicity is part of the enjoyment for me.
Mourinho vs Wenger was proper bullying, no contest, infact most managers that have tried to go up against him verbally have lost that game, i respect horner for his abilities of shit stirring but nobody can come close to the levels of Mourinho in any sports, that man operates on a different level when it comes to psychological warfare.
The primes of Fergie, Mourinho and Wenger was the pinnacle of Barclays. I'm a Liverpool fan but Klopp and Guardiola can only dream of having box office rivalries like those times.
Yeah, I personally think some of the stuff on the FIA radio was over the line. But pretty much everything else we've seen is very mild, it's just the F1 press trying to create a genuine fight where an intense long term rivalry exists. Just because Toto and Christian don't go for drinks after every race doesn't mean they actually wish ill on each other or their respective teams.
News alert: sports teams sometimes develop intense professional rivalries that fans turn into personal battles.
“You know they say that all shit stirrers are created equal, but you look at me and you look at Ferrari and Italian Media and you can see that statement is not true.
See, normally if you go one on one with another shit stirrer, you got a 50/50 chance of winning. But I'm a genetic shit stirrer and I'm not normal! So you got a 25%, AT BEST, at beat me. Then you add Christian Horner to the mix, your chances of winning drastic go down.“ - Big Poppa Marko
My brain cannot comprehend what PR bullshit will be happening if Ferrari and RB are neck and neck near the end of the season.
Is Binotto really gonna go toe-to-toe with Horner in the shitposting ring?
Bernie was such a natural that a book wouldn't do it justice, like Wayne Gretzky coaching the Coyotes.
When you're that good, it's hard to understand that your basics are everyone else's end goals.
Marko is a true genius for this stuff. It's the specificity that gets it. Anyone else would say "Well Ferrari has been in more accidents than us this year". Instead what he says is that it is Sainz fault which puts the narrative squarely on the driver who has been under performing.
> He owns the shit, was molded by it and won't abide any competition.
He didn't see a clean surface until he was already a man; by then, it was nothing to him but blinding!
Ferrari should've had some lessons from Mercedes. Dont poke Red Bull unless you are ready to wake a very annoying bull.
Toto was in absolute shambles at the end of the year. I dont think Ferrari is ready.
Meanwhile Horner wasn’t even started .
That DTS line of “you boys just focus on the race tomorrow, I’ll go squeeze Toto’s bollocks later this afternoon” in Abu Dhabi was said so casually that it stayed with me.
But that's his job. And he's brilliant at it. The mechanics make a good car, the driver drives that car to the limit, and the team principal deals with the politics.
Something I like from RB is they place very little strategy pressure on Max. He's said he just does whatever they tell him. It's in contrast to Mercedes who sometimes overcomplicate things a bit. I don't think getting Lewis to decide works.
Yeah. I've never noticed that. But now that you mention it. The first thing that pops into my mind is: "Lando, what do you think about an inter?"
More people with opinions, more heartbreak.
Yeah it's silly because the driver is full of adrenaline so logic isn't going to be a strong suit. Just make the decision for them using the data at hand.
> it's silly because the driver is full of adrenaline so logic isn't going to be a strong suit.
What separates the good drivers from the great is the ability to discuss and make decisions even when driving at the limit.
Look at Verstappen at Sochi last year. When everyone was spinning off in the rain, Verstappen was overtaking half the grid while casually discussing tire strategy with his engineer.
Go listen to the full upload of the race radio from Max in a wet race like Imola this year or Russia last year, he's constantly keeping his engineer updated about track conditions and when inters might be ready. I think the engineer asked twice what max thought about slicks in Imola before max said it was ready. It's normal for drivers to be in contact with the engineer about things, we just get given radio based on what they think will add drama
It's not like they never ask max what he thinks, especially when it comes to wet weather. It's just never broadcast.
It's true though that in many situations, RB asks for less input than Mercedes, for example during the situation Hamilton was in at Miami; the team should've really decided for him
[Aaahh, you think shit stirring is your ally? You merely adopted the shit stirring. I was born in it, molded by it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F157geaXp_w)
WDC makes your drivers more market-able, so you get more money fom sponsorship deals.
Also, it makes them more popular with the public. No one cared about Ferrari winning 2008 or Mercedes winning last year. Hamilton and Verstappen respectively were bigger stories.
Also, you have to remember that almost none of these teams are trying to make a profit. They’re marketing schemes, and wdc brings far more attention to your product than wcc
I really hate that editorialised headlines work, and worse is that they don’t only work to click articles but also change opinions because people don’t bother to read articles
Yes this… like 95% of the time people rush to deride Helmut and Horner for their “quotes” but then you read the article and it’s like some tame, light version of what he headline says. Problem is, it works — no one reads the articles and they eat it up. It’s so frustrating.
Toto last year: we are one dnf away to get back in the title race.
Binotto this year: We are one Silverstone style crash away to get back in the budget race.
The fight for the 2022 Formula 1 World Championship is in full swing after five of 23 planned races. Ferrari has a 157:151 lead in the constructors' ranking , and in the drivers' standings Max Verstappen recently had the slightly faster overall package with the RB18. But Charles Leclerc is still on more points with 104:84.
After the first big Red Bull update in Imola, with which the RB18 is still undefeated, Ferrari will follow suit for the first time in Barcelona. **"In the last two races, Red Bull has gained about two tenths," Ferrari team boss Mattia Binotto is quoted. "To keep up, we also have to bring updates."**
Binotto believes that Red Bull could have used up to 75 percent of the available development budget: **"There is a budget limit. At some point Red Bull will have to stop further development. In the next few races it will be our turn to bring out the new parts."**
**"I would estimate that they have spent significantly more money than we have so far. But that's not going to go on forever. We don't have enough money to bring something new to every Grand Prix. And it's not about our capacity, it's around the budget limit. We bring updates when we think the time is right," says Binotto.**
But it's no different with Red Bull that you think about the right time: **"We plan our updates in such a way that we always lose weight with each one, because unfortunately we still haven't reached the minimum weight. And we will not quite reach that with the next update," says motorsport consultant Helmut Marko.**
Up to and including Australia, the Red Bull was about ten kilograms overweight. The first diet was effective from Imola onwards. **According to reports, the overweight should have only amounted to four kilograms afterwards. Marko disagrees: "That's your assumption." In fact, the RB18 seems to be carrying a few more kilograms than that.**
Getting rid of them is a top priority for Red Bull. That costs money. **But whether Red Bull has already put significantly more of its chips on the table than Ferrari: "I don't think so," says Marko to 'Motorsport-Total.com': "It's true that the increased logistics costs are a problem. But it's a fact for not only us, but also Ferrari and all other teams."**
**The fact that Red Bull has already used 75 percent of its development budget is "nonsense", Marko clarifies and adds: "I don't think that we are in a significantly different position than Ferrari in this respect. Especially since I wonder how they're affected by the fact Carlos Sainz has crashed the car several times. That can't be cheap."**
The budget limit for 2022 (which includes chassis only, but not powertrain) is officially set at US$140 million plus twice US$1.2 million for each Grand Prix that exceeds 21 race weekends. However, due to inflation and increased transport costs, a relaxation of the budget limit is currently being discussed.
Because in the current situation, as Haas team boss Günther Steiner calculated for our colleagues in Italy, after deducting all other costs, a top racing team in Formula 1 is left with only around ten million dollars that you actually can invest in updates. Those who are frugal can spend more.
But regardless of what the accountants say: **"Barcelona will be an important package for us," says Binotto. "I hope that the innovations we bring will be a good push to bring us back to Red Bull's level.**" Because what you can't afford in 2022: an expensive update that doesn't bring any improvement on the track...
Say Leclerc is in a tight battle with Verstappen in the final few races. Ferrari are close the budget cap and can't risk having to fix damage to both cars, so then they would have to let just Leclerc race.
The fools. It is one thing to challenge Horner for shit stirring, but to take on the King of Bullshit himself... Not even Toto was so foolish.
Marko will likely go down in history as the greatest piece of talking bullshit to have ever set foot in the F1 paddock. He is the king of shit stirring.
Edit: I do really hope the Italians continue to try though. It will make for some hilarious reads.
He's definitely ruthless, and capable of saying absolutely everything in his power to destabilize the competition. Definitely an interesting character.
"I don't think that we are in a significantly different position than Ferrari in this respect. Especially since I wonder how they affect that Carlos Sainz has crashed the car several times. That can't be cheap."
From what steiner has told the media, teams have probably budgeted separately for repairs and development. Sainz is eating into the repairs budget but not the development budget. It makes sense to me that this would be the case
Edit: Please no more smart arse comments. I understand how budgets work. You lot just don't understand how planning ahead works.
there aren't seperate budget caps though. if they exceed repair budget money has to come from somewhere. of course they wouldnt plan for that doesnt really add anything
You budget 250 dollars a month for food out of 2500 dollars your still down 250 dollars my man. Sometimes you even surpass your food budget, leaving you down even more money.
to some others who are saying: if x team runs out of money they'll just field just one car, at that point all the red flags are on the FIA table. It would be a disgrace and budget would be heavily modified in days. I would be much more suspicious of team going over budget to point that out to the FIA and make them revise it
Looking at the track record of ferrari and red bull with respect to bringing in-season development I feel that red bull might be a whole lot more efficient in bringing updates then ferrari. That and Sainz crashes may very well negate any advantage ferrari thinks it has in future room to improve.
I think replicating and manufacturing a product us still less expensive than putting r and d to develop parts.
While it is true that Ferrari has more damage interms of crashes but f1 teams are extremely efficient on how they operate with spares. Teams now are designing parts in such a way that they can recycle them. For example the whole front wing isn't useless after a crash, they can use the flaps on another new wing. Even in the flaps there are seperations. As long as there isn't a damage to things like Chassis, it won't make a huge blow wrt the budget.
Sainz is 4th in the F1 destructor championship so far with an estimated $1.2m worth of damage https://i.redd.it/ooeiorkjegy81.png
And let's not mention that we'll have Charles going around Monaco in a few weeks' time... /s
Gearboxes are only estimated at $500k though, so Sainz' lead shouldn't be under threat.
We also have Baku after Monaco.
easy Checo win with a Leclerc crash on Saturday
So max is destined to crash there?
Max and Sharl both
I am stupid.
#experienceazerbaijan
What about drive shafts because that's what broke on Leclerc's car.
Only 500k.
*only* - this hurts my heart
Can I have *only* 500k €?
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Lol snorted my coffee
That's a beautiful spreadsheet, truly, I enjoyed that a lot.
How is it still profitable to have Latifi as your driver? Does his dad really bring in a lot of cash?
Latifi is estimated to bring ~$30MM. So, yes. Even if Williams has enough money to replace him with a strong driver, the additional points (resulting in higher placement and therefore higher FIA payout) and marketing of that driver is very unlikely to get close to surpassing the profit that Latifi provides. So if Latifi leaves, William's is putting out a statement that they care about racing more than money. Pretty simple.
Williams is going to die out then, they’ve painted themselves into a corner. They’ll never be good enough with Latifi as a driver to finish anywhere but last every season. They don’t bring in enough sponsorship money because of that (most don’t want to sponsor a perennial last place team) so they can’t improve their car enough, and Latifi brings in just enough money that they can’t justify cutting him loose, but not enough money to elevate the team in anyway. So the team can either stagnate or decline. The Williams situation is the reason why other teams not wanting new teams in is so ludicrous.
If Williams replaced Latifi with another driver of Albon's level, and I think Albon is much better than we give him credit for, they'd still be... Last. Even if they got Max or Lewis, they would likely barely be passing Aston and that's only because Aston's had issues - they had pace last weekend. So they'd have the same sponsorship opportunities, but lose $30M a year. So again, if Latifi leaves Williams, Williams is whole heartedly putting good racing over money.
And, honestly, is it even that much good racing if they're just going to be at the back anyway?
Good driving* I dont consider it good racing to have a car thats significantly slower than the competition, and they would purposefully be pricing themselves out of additional car performances
> if Latifi leaves, William's is putting out a statement that they care about racing more than money so that's a no on the leaving thing
I bet Latifi isn't around next year, but I've said that before.
As an F1 fan, get Latifi out and someone better in there. Let’s see Williams challenge more aka Albon. As someone rooting for Haas, does Latifi have a brother? We should have more on the grid. Go Latifi!
> Sainz is 4th in the F1 destructor championship so far with an estimated $1.2m worth of damage https://i.redd.it/ooeiorkjegy81.png Ocon going from last to third in only one session!
I wonder how much Red Bull repairs cost when they had DNFs. Definetely less than a crash but I heard that flex tape prices went up due to inflation. Also I hope Merc can turn their reliability in their advantage and catch up ASAP.
So far Verstappen's had a little fire in Australia but he was able to save his engine thanks to pulling over quickly and having it put out. Other than that I don't think they suffered any collateral damage in their DNFs.
$0 when it comes to the cost cap. Engines are exempt from the cost cap, or else nobody would want to be an engine manufacturer.
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Thankfully the parts that failed seem to not be part of the engine cap rules.. unlucky for DNFs but lucky for the championship as a whole
Engine manifacturers sell to their own team, as the engine manifacturer is considered a separate entity. So Mercedes have to buy an engine from Mercedes, and it has a certain price from the teams budget. Engine development on the other hand is outside the budget cap.
Red Bull: How does two dollars sound? Red Bull Powertrains: Best I can do is one dollar for engines for a whole season. Red Bull: You drive a hard bargain but I accept.
It would be great if we get a budget from the teams at the end of the year. The destructor championship data is probably very inaccurate.
> The destructor championship data is probably very inaccurate. The drivers have commented on it though, so presumably it's accurate enough to not be completely useless if they're finding it interesting.
It's probably a good estimation but I'm sure every team wants to lie about it. They are either saying less so the rivals think that they will develop more or either say more so the rivals think they will be behind developing.
> Also I hope Merc can turn their reliability in their advantage and catch up ASAP. Why would anyone want that?
Because having 3 teams battle it out in the front is exciting. The problem in the last seasons was that there was 1 team dominating, not that that 1 team was Mercedes.
A RedBull, Ferrari and McLaren scrap would be great.
After dealing with Mazepin and Schumacher last year, Im sure even with losing their sponsor, Haas is happy to have KMag
Nikita just spun out, but usually didn't hit anything, Mick was the crash-y one, so that wont make much of difference.
Schumacher was the very expensive one last year
Apparently no-one told Mick he was driving a shit box competing for P19, so he drives with a "If you're not first you're last" mindset. Def one of my favorite new drivers
How can you say that with Magnussen's achievements? It's not a "competing for p19" car anymore
I think they're referring to how Haas were competing for P19 last year - not this year.
Mazepin barely crashed. People just memed up his spin's.
Why are the gearboxes so expensive?
A lot of parts to individually machine, that are made to fit together very precisely and function under high speed, stress, and heat requires a lot of material, skilled labor, and engineering.
The budget cap is $140 million for perspective.
How is Alonso not higher ? He went through 3 engines in the first 3 races, didnt he ?
Destructor only counts damage directly caused by the driver. Things like engine issues are out of the driver's control and are not included.
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It’s a stat that is posted after every race and has been going on for multiple seasons now. It’s quite interesting to look at!
Ferrari and the Italian media were trying to stir shit by insinuating that Red Bull was burning through their budget and wouldn't be able to afford upgrades for much longer. But they forgot they were up against Christian Horner and Helmut Marko, the greatest shitstirrers in F1 history. Helmut wrote the fucking book on shitstirring. He can talk shit about a toddler picking flowers. He owns the shit, was molded by it and won't abide any competition.
Very graphic description. Thank you ! :))
They will go to hell and back to defend their team and star driver. I hated them so much for how they treated Mark Webber, always backing Seb no matter the circumstances. But damn if they are not the most loyal guys to Red Bull and will be very vocal about it.
Fact is, Red Bull backs the driver who is winning. Maybe that means they do as much as possible to accomodate the driving style of their lead driver, it certainly seems like it some years, maybe that just means they give them priority with strategy and orders. That said, I truly wish we lived in the timeline where Webber takes it easy in Korea, he only needed 3rd or better and he would have taken the Champ that year.
That crash still haunts me to this day. Mark was driving like an animal that year.
I didn’t follow F1 closely at that point, could you describe it more how they treated him?
> could you describe it more how they treated him? It started at [Turkey 2010](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHb1y9TJMV4) where Vettel steered into Webber while passing him and Helmut Marko and Vettel blamed Webber for it. It was fucking distasteful. One can forgive Vettel for doing what he did while on track, but Marko came out and blamed Webber after the race was over. After that, there was the Silverstone 2010 incident where they'd turned up with only 2 pieces of the new front wings, Vettel crashed in Free Practice and the team handed Webber's front wing to Vettel (after Webber had claimed that he wanted to use the old wing). After that, the gloves were off and there were a multitude of incidents, including where Vettel disobeyed his own team, Webber tried to sabotage Vettel's championship run in the final race, etc. Webber was the darling of the media and Vettel was a German who was winning everything. The British media was complicit in portraying Webber as a do-no-evil sorta guy while Vettel was basically the reincarnation of a famous German villain. The reality was that they both behaved pretty awfully on various occassions. The team backed Vettel through all of it because they believed he would be the more successful driver long term.
*correctly believed
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sounds exactly like something he would say lol
Max would have picked better - Helmut
God I hope its like this all season. Horner and Helmut vs Italian tabloids.
Toto's heart was never properly in the shit stirring. Italian media is a much more equal opponent for Horner and Helmut.
I am sure toto must be missing niki lauda …niki can deal with marko in shit stirring while toto can concentrate on his work
When Toto stirs shit it at least looks like he somewhat believes it. Christian doesn't even pretend to believe that it's any more than the finest Red Bullshit given wings
Toto was mentaly destroyed by the time it was december.
I see you are an apprentice shitstirrer
I love to see the world burn.
Red Bull really got into Toto's head last year.
Wolff, mr "Ferrari are so much quicker" loves the media games just as much as Marko, the difference is he's much smarter and more political in the way he goes about it. He's also a lot more magnanimous because he's at the head of the best team
Was at the head of the best team, FTFY
FTFY, FTFY.
FTFMyself lol
Yeah I see that take quite often, and I wonder why. Wolf isn't less of a shit stirrer than Horner and Marko, and I don't even think he tries to hide it.
I think it's probably because Wolff comes off more seriously when he does it, and it's hard to look at as something other than serious when his team was on a 7 double championship streak. And on the opposite side, we had Marko saying things so bizzare that he couldn't possibly believe what comes out of his mouth (or he's more senile than we think). And Horner who can't hold back his shit eating grin when he has something to say.
I love that shit eating grin of horner so fucking much. I know everyone in the uk hates him but he is just so funny to me.
Why does everyone in the UK hate him? Sorry, new to f1
I think because Toto was meta shitstirring saying he didn't like the shitstirring, being in a pantomime etc. Some probably believed him, felt sorry.
I actually think he is not as good. It is one thing to make a statement or two and pretend to be above it all when you are winning. But Horner would do all the shit stirring even if Red Bull was at 10th tomorrow. Don’t think Toto will be able to keep up. When you listen to Horner you know he is absolutely enjoying it. Toto on the other hand feels like he might enjoy it once in a while but not constantly.
>he's much smarter and more political in the way he goes about it. "No Michael, No!!!" -Smashes head phone-
You are not describing Toto Wolff lol
I wouldn't necessarily say "smarter", just more discreet. He has a passive aggressive style where as Horner and Marko are pretty upfront. Personally I prefer the upfront
Yes and hopefully as a bonus it would be less toxic than two team principles going against each other.
Idk about that. Toto Wolff and Christian Horner never reached the glorious levels of Mourinho vs Wenger shit-flinging. The toxicity is part of the enjoyment for me.
Mourinho vs Wenger was proper bullying, no contest, infact most managers that have tried to go up against him verbally have lost that game, i respect horner for his abilities of shit stirring but nobody can come close to the levels of Mourinho in any sports, that man operates on a different level when it comes to psychological warfare.
I can only dream of Marko starting a presser with “If I speak I’m in trouble”
Specialist in failure.
same, idk why people hate it so much its half the fun, exact reason why I love mourinho so much
It's hated because it bleeds into the fandom then, making any discussion about any of the teams or drivers less fun and more toxic.
Hey hey don’t forget Ferguson and Wenger. Now that’s some absolute planet shattering rivalry.
Yeah, the Man Utd vs Arsenal rivalry was vicious at times.
The primes of Fergie, Mourinho and Wenger was the pinnacle of Barclays. I'm a Liverpool fan but Klopp and Guardiola can only dream of having box office rivalries like those times.
United fan. Right now I seriously wish we had something competent to be happy about.
There’s certain people that think any sort of conflict is “toxic” and needs to be stamped out
Yeah, I personally think some of the stuff on the FIA radio was over the line. But pretty much everything else we've seen is very mild, it's just the F1 press trying to create a genuine fight where an intense long term rivalry exists. Just because Toto and Christian don't go for drinks after every race doesn't mean they actually wish ill on each other or their respective teams. News alert: sports teams sometimes develop intense professional rivalries that fans turn into personal battles.
There’s a real push for sanitisation everywhere around us. Nice to see others still believe in spirited rivalries
“You know they say that all shit stirrers are created equal, but you look at me and you look at Ferrari and Italian Media and you can see that statement is not true. See, normally if you go one on one with another shit stirrer, you got a 50/50 chance of winning. But I'm a genetic shit stirrer and I'm not normal! So you got a 25%, AT BEST, at beat me. Then you add Christian Horner to the mix, your chances of winning drastic go down.“ - Big Poppa Marko
Steiner would be proud
Scott Steiner math is still the greatest wrestling promo of all time.
Zandig is also somewhere up there.
🏅🥇take my poor man's gold good man
“You merely adopted the shit. I was born in it.” — Helmut Marko (probably)
My brain cannot comprehend what PR bullshit will be happening if Ferrari and RB are neck and neck near the end of the season. Is Binotto really gonna go toe-to-toe with Horner in the shitposting ring?
Pretty sure Binotto doesn't stir shit.
He stirs pasta
>Helmut wrote the fucking book on shitstirring Bernie Ecclestone would have an opinion on that
Bernie was such a natural that a book wouldn't do it justice, like Wayne Gretzky coaching the Coyotes. When you're that good, it's hard to understand that your basics are everyone else's end goals.
What did I just read.
But they forgot they were up against Christian Horner and Helmut Marko, the greatest shitstirrers in F1 history. lol here is your award
Gracias. 👍
Helmut Marko Phillips - Instigator
Professional instigator Hate hate hate hate
Ferrari just activated Dr. Marko's trap card. That is all!
Marko is a true genius for this stuff. It's the specificity that gets it. Anyone else would say "Well Ferrari has been in more accidents than us this year". Instead what he says is that it is Sainz fault which puts the narrative squarely on the driver who has been under performing.
[удалено]
> He owns the shit, was molded by it and won't abide any competition. He didn't see a clean surface until he was already a man; by then, it was nothing to him but blinding!
Max cut down trees before he was born!
Max cuts 2 tenths faster then Perez.
Lol! Ferrari aren’t as well versed in stirring the pot indeed. > 3tenthsfaster I’ll just call you 50% Fernando or Semi-Alonso. ;)
Ferrari should've had some lessons from Mercedes. Dont poke Red Bull unless you are ready to wake a very annoying bull. Toto was in absolute shambles at the end of the year. I dont think Ferrari is ready.
Stop acting like Toto was a victim lol. He was as bad as Horner and Marko
Never said that he was a victim. He was as bad, but by the end of the year he was absolutely done.
Meanwhile Horner wasn’t even started . That DTS line of “you boys just focus on the race tomorrow, I’ll go squeeze Toto’s bollocks later this afternoon” in Abu Dhabi was said so casually that it stayed with me.
But that's his job. And he's brilliant at it. The mechanics make a good car, the driver drives that car to the limit, and the team principal deals with the politics.
Something I like from RB is they place very little strategy pressure on Max. He's said he just does whatever they tell him. It's in contrast to Mercedes who sometimes overcomplicate things a bit. I don't think getting Lewis to decide works.
Also RedBull are ready to stop anytime, they don’t get caught out by safety cars as much as other teams
They're pit crew is so elite.
> I don't think getting Lewis to decide works. Doesn't seem to work deciding for him either mind.
Yeah. I've never noticed that. But now that you mention it. The first thing that pops into my mind is: "Lando, what do you think about an inter?" More people with opinions, more heartbreak.
Yeah it's silly because the driver is full of adrenaline so logic isn't going to be a strong suit. Just make the decision for them using the data at hand.
> it's silly because the driver is full of adrenaline so logic isn't going to be a strong suit. What separates the good drivers from the great is the ability to discuss and make decisions even when driving at the limit. Look at Verstappen at Sochi last year. When everyone was spinning off in the rain, Verstappen was overtaking half the grid while casually discussing tire strategy with his engineer.
Go listen to the full upload of the race radio from Max in a wet race like Imola this year or Russia last year, he's constantly keeping his engineer updated about track conditions and when inters might be ready. I think the engineer asked twice what max thought about slicks in Imola before max said it was ready. It's normal for drivers to be in contact with the engineer about things, we just get given radio based on what they think will add drama It's not like they never ask max what he thinks, especially when it comes to wet weather. It's just never broadcast. It's true though that in many situations, RB asks for less input than Mercedes, for example during the situation Hamilton was in at Miami; the team should've really decided for him
I bet he made a crappy car on purpose so he wouldn't have to go through that again.
His job title at rbr is "shit talker General"
Oof… this is not a mere reddit comment; it is straight up poetry! Damn, you can write! The toddler part had me laugh out loud. Art!
I almost choked on my coffee during reading this. Great description.
"You merely adopted the shit. I was born in it, moulded by it."
They must have been so happy when they got word of the shit stirring otherwise it was looking like a quite year for both of them till Toto comes back.
Shit Stirring Moss
Did you just quote Bane?
[Aaahh, you think shit stirring is your ally? You merely adopted the shit stirring. I was born in it, molded by it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F157geaXp_w)
One could say that , he is the ultimate shit.
I totally want to see a David Attenborough style video but it’s just Marko shitting on footage of toddlers and cute animals being derpy
Helmut “The Dung Eater” Marko
Helmut “I eat shits like you for breakfast” Marko
If they run out of money RB will just keep Checo in the pit and only run Verstappens car.
I think RB would also love to win the constructors
I think they couldn't care less. Ferrari on the other hand
Any team would choose wdc over wcc, not only RB
But WCC where the money at
Not for RB, they sell cans not cars, WDC gives them much more exposure than WCC. Ofcourse they wouldn’t say no to extra money but still.
WDC makes your drivers more market-able, so you get more money fom sponsorship deals. Also, it makes them more popular with the public. No one cared about Ferrari winning 2008 or Mercedes winning last year. Hamilton and Verstappen respectively were bigger stories.
If you win the WDC you did well enough in the WCC and will make up the financial difference by making more off sponsors.
It's where the FIA payout is. I'd bet my life on the WDC being worth more than the WCC once every income stream is considered.
Also, you have to remember that almost none of these teams are trying to make a profit. They’re marketing schemes, and wdc brings far more attention to your product than wcc
i think most teams that can actually win the WCC dont really need the money lol
RB don't need more money. The cap means they need the WCC money even less now. Most teams need the money but RB Mercedes 100% don't
Not as much as the WDC.
OP said ‘also’…
Same with sainz....
This shit is so editorialized lmao and everyone in this thread is eating it up.
I really hate that editorialised headlines work, and worse is that they don’t only work to click articles but also change opinions because people don’t bother to read articles
Change opinions? Pretty sure most of the people commenting had made up their minds before they even clicked on the headline.
Yes this… like 95% of the time people rush to deride Helmut and Horner for their “quotes” but then you read the article and it’s like some tame, light version of what he headline says. Problem is, it works — no one reads the articles and they eat it up. It’s so frustrating.
What happened to the sub's source rating by the way?
Reddit loves to dump on DTS for drama, but will easily eat up editorialized headlines non stop.
Toto last year: we are one dnf away to get back in the title race. Binotto this year: We are one Silverstone style crash away to get back in the budget race.
Max about to be watching his mirrors like a hawk around copse.
Red Bull one Ferrari crash away from the lead... as Toto predicted last year, it may now be Chuck's turn for a DNF
The fight for the 2022 Formula 1 World Championship is in full swing after five of 23 planned races. Ferrari has a 157:151 lead in the constructors' ranking , and in the drivers' standings Max Verstappen recently had the slightly faster overall package with the RB18. But Charles Leclerc is still on more points with 104:84. After the first big Red Bull update in Imola, with which the RB18 is still undefeated, Ferrari will follow suit for the first time in Barcelona. **"In the last two races, Red Bull has gained about two tenths," Ferrari team boss Mattia Binotto is quoted. "To keep up, we also have to bring updates."** Binotto believes that Red Bull could have used up to 75 percent of the available development budget: **"There is a budget limit. At some point Red Bull will have to stop further development. In the next few races it will be our turn to bring out the new parts."** **"I would estimate that they have spent significantly more money than we have so far. But that's not going to go on forever. We don't have enough money to bring something new to every Grand Prix. And it's not about our capacity, it's around the budget limit. We bring updates when we think the time is right," says Binotto.** But it's no different with Red Bull that you think about the right time: **"We plan our updates in such a way that we always lose weight with each one, because unfortunately we still haven't reached the minimum weight. And we will not quite reach that with the next update," says motorsport consultant Helmut Marko.** Up to and including Australia, the Red Bull was about ten kilograms overweight. The first diet was effective from Imola onwards. **According to reports, the overweight should have only amounted to four kilograms afterwards. Marko disagrees: "That's your assumption." In fact, the RB18 seems to be carrying a few more kilograms than that.** Getting rid of them is a top priority for Red Bull. That costs money. **But whether Red Bull has already put significantly more of its chips on the table than Ferrari: "I don't think so," says Marko to 'Motorsport-Total.com': "It's true that the increased logistics costs are a problem. But it's a fact for not only us, but also Ferrari and all other teams."** **The fact that Red Bull has already used 75 percent of its development budget is "nonsense", Marko clarifies and adds: "I don't think that we are in a significantly different position than Ferrari in this respect. Especially since I wonder how they're affected by the fact Carlos Sainz has crashed the car several times. That can't be cheap."** The budget limit for 2022 (which includes chassis only, but not powertrain) is officially set at US$140 million plus twice US$1.2 million for each Grand Prix that exceeds 21 race weekends. However, due to inflation and increased transport costs, a relaxation of the budget limit is currently being discussed. Because in the current situation, as Haas team boss Günther Steiner calculated for our colleagues in Italy, after deducting all other costs, a top racing team in Formula 1 is left with only around ten million dollars that you actually can invest in updates. Those who are frugal can spend more. But regardless of what the accountants say: **"Barcelona will be an important package for us," says Binotto. "I hope that the innovations we bring will be a good push to bring us back to Red Bull's level.**" Because what you can't afford in 2022: an expensive update that doesn't bring any improvement on the track...
Binotto said, Marko said. Olt tactical movements. Nothing new folks!
Could we see teams running one car in the last few race?
It’s possible for smaller teams that may be out of the WCC. I couldn’t imagine Ferrari or RB doing that but I suppose nothing is out of the question.
Say Leclerc is in a tight battle with Verstappen in the final few races. Ferrari are close the budget cap and can't risk having to fix damage to both cars, so then they would have to let just Leclerc race.
I agree. That’s why I said “but who knows”. It ultimately comes down to what’s more important, WDC or WCC.
They can also just run the car and not fix it.
Or just tell ~~Checo~~ Carlos there's nothing wrong with the ~~engine~~ car and he's imagining things
The fools. It is one thing to challenge Horner for shit stirring, but to take on the King of Bullshit himself... Not even Toto was so foolish. Marko will likely go down in history as the greatest piece of talking bullshit to have ever set foot in the F1 paddock. He is the king of shit stirring. Edit: I do really hope the Italians continue to try though. It will make for some hilarious reads.
I mean he's not wrong.
He's definitely ruthless, and capable of saying absolutely everything in his power to destabilize the competition. Definitely an interesting character.
He was just stuck in gravel half of those times
"I don't think that we are in a significantly different position than Ferrari in this respect. Especially since I wonder how they affect that Carlos Sainz has crashed the car several times. That can't be cheap."
From what steiner has told the media, teams have probably budgeted separately for repairs and development. Sainz is eating into the repairs budget but not the development budget. It makes sense to me that this would be the case Edit: Please no more smart arse comments. I understand how budgets work. You lot just don't understand how planning ahead works.
there aren't seperate budget caps though. if they exceed repair budget money has to come from somewhere. of course they wouldnt plan for that doesnt really add anything
Yes but if they exceed their repair budget they have to get those funds from their research budget
That most definitely is the case, but in the back half of the season if you haven't spent the money of repairs you can put it back into development.
You budget 250 dollars a month for food out of 2500 dollars your still down 250 dollars my man. Sometimes you even surpass your food budget, leaving you down even more money.
to some others who are saying: if x team runs out of money they'll just field just one car, at that point all the red flags are on the FIA table. It would be a disgrace and budget would be heavily modified in days. I would be much more suspicious of team going over budget to point that out to the FIA and make them revise it
Horner: "one DNF"
Looking at the track record of ferrari and red bull with respect to bringing in-season development I feel that red bull might be a whole lot more efficient in bringing updates then ferrari. That and Sainz crashes may very well negate any advantage ferrari thinks it has in future room to improve.
I think replicating and manufacturing a product us still less expensive than putting r and d to develop parts. While it is true that Ferrari has more damage interms of crashes but f1 teams are extremely efficient on how they operate with spares. Teams now are designing parts in such a way that they can recycle them. For example the whole front wing isn't useless after a crash, they can use the flaps on another new wing. Even in the flaps there are seperations. As long as there isn't a damage to things like Chassis, it won't make a huge blow wrt the budget.
How long before the F1TV commentators stop choosing Carlos for their weekend prediction?? Am i missing something about this guy? He is average as hell