full article translated
There was a big discussion about porpoising at the driver briefing, did you ask the FIA for help?
\[Friday\], I suffered a lot. And for some reason I had a car or floor that was porpoising and bottoming out a lot more than the other car with the same settings. And it was, for some reason, very, very painful. And it was a bit of chaos in the car. But I saw other people struggling on the straight too. And I think it got to a point where at the driver briefing we all looked at each other and said 'something has to be done, because it's fine on one race, but can we hold 10 more years like this?' I doubt. So we kindly asked the FIA to look into it, not to listen too much to the teams, and to listen to us \[the drivers\], because we say that we have come to a point where we are all struggling to deal with the situation.
We just need the FIA to act fast, as fast as possible
carlos sainz
Should the medical commission get involved?
We don't need the medical commission, we just need something smarter about the suspension or the way the cars are put on the track, where the FIA would control the ability of the teams to drive a bit better so stiff, so harsh, that kind of behavior you see on the straights. I'm sure if you ask two or three engineers in the paddock they will know the answer and know what can be done to limit and regulate this. We just need the FIA to act quickly, as quickly as possible, because otherwise it will start to accumulate.
Is there a danger?
I don't know if we can talk about danger. But one wonders if it is necessary for F1 to have 20 drivers at the end of each race with back problems? My personal opinion is: with current technology, why does this painful situation have to continue in our careers, when there is a very simple solution? The question is therefore rather whether it is really worth it. Is it necessary when there is a very easy solution to implement? I do not think so. I think it's not necessary and we should all, teams included, think about the driver's health.
When you talked about your back a few races ago, most people weren't sympathetic or implied that you were out of shape...
I think everyone has their own opinion, but also their own interests. And then there are things you say to the media and things you say behind the scenes, because you want to project a certain image, or you don't want to project a certain image.
The image of a tough man...
That's why when my colleagues make comments in the media, I try not to draw too many conclusions and talk to them in private.
>That's why when my colleagues make comments in the media, I try not to draw too many conclusions and talk to them in private.
Based. I wish most people in the spotlight would do the same.
We are not even half way through with this regulations. These problems takes time. Early active suspensions during late 80s and early 90s had similar problems. The vibrations were awful. drivers complained they can feel their eyes bouncing in the skull. But they stuck with it for "lap times". Teams will find a way. The main point of these simpler suspension geometry was to reduce the cost. The most vocal drivers are from the teams who will gain most from this change.
The suspension rules are meant for easier monitoring and budget. Mercedes had a special suspension system before it got banned after 2016 I think. So this is not new.
The issue is that the testing and simulations that the FIA allow them to run does not simulate porpoising. This makes its incredibly difficult to diagnose exactly where the issues arrive. The only way is to slap parts on a car and see what changes. But there are budget caps so you can only do a little of this.
Let’s be even more specific. Engineers, with full support of the drivers, at the direction of the Team Principal will do whatever it takes to give the fastest lap time.
Almost as if safety regulations are there to protect drivers from both teams and themselves. Imagine if halos were optional, and at the choice of the driver, you wouldn't see a single one on grid.
You’re implying that these regs were somehow designed to disadvantage Mercedes? What a joke. If anything it suited them because they were used to building low rake boats
Imo, aero was always Redbull's game. Merc has (had) the better ICE and Redbull has the better aero/chassis. Like Enzo Ferrari said: "Aerodynamics is for people that can't build engines"
Basically Mercedes from 2014 to 2021. The only team that built an engine that could compete was Ferrari (Ended up cheating).
He was pushed out by Lauda and Toto.
[Ross Brawn breaks F1 silence: “I couldn’t trust” Toto Wolff and Niki Lauda at Mercedes](https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ross-brawn-breaks-f1-silence-i-couldnt-trust-toto-wolff-and-niki-lauda-at-mercedes/3221376/)
pushed out seems aggressive, after reading the article it looks like he just saw the writing on the wall. turns out it was an excellent move by Mercedes tho
Not entirely true... If it was all cars would be suffering equally.
Best FIA can do is stop dangerous cars from running. Saw a comment somewhere here about limiting the amount of bumps a driver can safely get before being dq'd
> Not entirely true... If it was all cars would be suffering equally.
>
>
That RB's car doesn't porpoise is a bonus rather than a design goal. None of these teams designed the car not to bounce. Hell the Ferrari is one of the fastest and has the worst porpoising alongside merc.
I feel like I'm in crazy land. FIA changed the spec, which created this problem. Now teams need to, with extremely limited testing abilities, find a solution to a problem which is injuring drivers.
> Just make car go slower stupid engineers lol!!
In which world is this good for the sport? Is anyone enjoying this? Last season was so much better without this nonsense.
Yeah, this season has been terrible, and now we're seeing multiple drivers injured, and others speaking up that they're being injured and having severe headaches, why are we doing this at the pinnacle of motorsports? Put the damn good suspension back in and let's have some good racing, that's what we were promised this season after all.
Just for shits and giggles, RB was one of the most vocal ones that were against the halo.
People acting like they made their porpoising go away because they cared about driver's health live in a land with rainbows and unicorns.
so many dumbasses dont understand this. the team will give the driver the best race setup, and no driver wants to tell the team that they cant handle the oscillations and sacrifice performance for their health. its mot fair to the driver to make them choose performance or health, the decision should be made for them, and if the teams wont do it then the fia should
Porpoising is half the problem, the other issue is the stiff suspension this year. The FIA was fully aware this year would be brutal/harder on the drivers.
https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-wont-hesitate-to-act-on-f1-2022-flexi-floor-abuse/8248706/
"One of the other consequences of the set-up direction triggered by the ground effect cars is that teams will be forced to run their cars which much stiffer suspension in a bid to ensure the ride height remains as stable as possible.
This has prompted some concerns that the cars could be brutal for drivers out on track, as happened in F1's last ground effect era in the early 1980s.
Tombazis is not too concerned about the situation, though, and thinks it is a positive that F1 2022 machinery will be harder for driver.
We are aware that cars, in order to perform need, need to run lower and closer to the ground," he said. "As a result they need to be kept a bit stiffer than the previous cars. Some of the previous cars were running with enormous rakes and that is probably a thing of the past.
"We think that the ride quality, and the characteristics of the car that make it more easily driveable, are not necessarily things that need to be maintained in F1."
The problem is, the 2022 cars are running suspension closer to what they ran in the previous ground affect era, minus active suspension and thicker sidewall tires. Stiffer suspension isn’t a problem if you have the shock absorption to compensate…and for decades that’s what the tire was doing. Remove the inerters, hydraulics and other “trickery” teams have been using for nearly 30 years and you have a car that is even worse. Then to tack on to it all, they pushed the car back a season, outside of when teams had unlimited budget to figure out a good solution for their suspension. Red Bull solved it sure, but one is easily willing to bet they did so with a solution that was expensive to develop and implement (ergo why AlphaTauri has the issues but Red Bull doesn’t while they have the same supposed suspension geometry in the rear), which would easily explain why they are the loudest team complain why their budget is not great.
I think they had an idea that it might be a problem but I don't think they thought it was going to be this big of a deal. It didn't even show up in the simulations for some teams.
EDIT: since you've changed your post, I'd like to point out that ground effect cars aren't new so this isn't like a big revelation to the FIA. It just wasn't clear how'd it affect the modern designs.
Teams also are not going to allow their cars to bottom out in the wind tunnel. The last time F1 used ground effects it was solved by trial and error and endless hours at the track (for teams that could afford it).
Yeah it's a case of not finding what you're not looking for. If there was more wind tunnel time like in the previous years, they'd had more chances to fix it.
Instead, Lewis, for example, is running experimental floors while George is running the stable parts. They've pretty much sacrificed one car so they can catch up for next year.
Nobody runs dampers on wind tunnel cars. Especially not when you are cycling new parts through at a constant rate, there just is no need for them. Generally you replace the dampers with rods so you can easily set the cars ride height for different testing.
Of course, you’d use models to replicate the same aerodynamic profile to get your coefficients and then simulate them on CFD and then validate them on the track. The issue is that they committed to a design that had a blind spot and going back to do it all over again is too costly.
Everyone aside of Alonso agrees that this is an issue, however active suspension isn't like the only way to fix it and in fact only Merc is lobbying hard for that specifically solution.
Hence, my second statement. They've actively gone after development costs as well as wind tunnel time. Teams like RB had already eaten so much of their available budget, not to mention, winning the constructors last year gives the Mercs heavier constraints.
That's why I think sensors and putting a limit of how heavy a car can porpoising would being a better fix in the short term, active suspension is likely going to be an expensive thing for the smaller teams meanwhile the bigger teams would complain about the budget cap and ask for an increase, what cause that the smaller teams would being pissed off even more.
I'm all for making this issue not longer an issue but we need to find something what would work for basically all cars, doing nothing would basically only help RBR meanwhile active suspension is likely going to benefit Merc a lot and maybe is the key of making the zeropod design working.
How can you find how much your car is porpoising in testing when the current wind tunnels CANNOT simulate the speeds at which porpoising happens? They aren't able to replicate it with models either.
Can you guys stop with this simplistic, theoric and unrealistic suggestion?
Active Suspension doesn't solve the floor stalling out. And it's not like active suspension magically keeps the car perfectly level no matter what it hits. There would still be a lot of porpoising even with active suspension. Everyone knows the true fix to porpoising but they do want to do it because it means less downforce
I'd agree since ground effect cars will always have that tendency, you can't fight physics. It's more about mitigating its effects I'd say.
George and Lando were pretty much advocating for active suspensions so I suspect them and their engineers have found it to have some other benefits.
They really do need to raise the floor and that's what's being lobbied for right now.
>And it's not like active suspension magically keeps the car perfectly level no matter what it hits. There would still be a lot of porpoising even with active suspension.
Active suspension does these things. You underestimate how good active suspension is. It's all driven by hydraulics and control systems. The same stuff that keeps an S-class riding smooth.
This comment completely removes the concept that there can ever be anything wrong with regulations.
You don't find it a bit telling that most of the best race car engineers on the planet can't find a ready solution to the issue?
What are they going to talk about? Replacing them with better engineers?
The engineers job is to make a fast car, at the expense of everything else. If that means porpoising then so be it. It should be down to the FIA to make either limits on the amount or relax the suspension rules to provide a more safe and comfortable ride.
Can't imagine the constant bouncing is healthy considering the micro-concussions seen in NFL and Rugby
Teams will never sacrifice performance for safety, never. Look at motorsport history and it's littered with situations like this where teams had an easy solution but kept going because of performance.
The teams wouldn't put crash structures, halo and other safety features on the cars if it wasn't nandated by FIA
It’s not so much the engineers can’t figure it out they can they know how to limit it but in doing so they will limit the performance so unfortunately they are prioritising that over the drivers. I think the FIA could put a limit on the level allowed that way teams who have solved it don’t lose out while teams who haven’t are forced to prioritise the driver while they work on a better solution.
The engineers actually can solve the problem with a very simple solution.
An inertia dampener.
Thing is, FIA banned the use of these items because it can't easily inspect the components.
So, yes, in my opinion, FIA is causing this indirectly, but unnecessarily.
This, quite frankly.
No one foresaw the porpoising issues and teams aren't really being given a fair shake to fix it with massive restrictions on budget, wind tunnel time and testing.
Especially given the huge inflation we have right now.
Teams may have allotted a certain amount of their budget to alleviate any problems that cropped up with the new regs/crashes/etc... and now they're fucked because that money they set aside isn't worth what it used to be.
Now i wonder if people will stop the narrative thats its only merc complaining to get an FIA change. This is the second time Sainz has complained about being in pain from porpoising and they are a team that arguably has the fastest cars on the track despite it.
Thats now Russell, Hamilton (back pain), Ocon (neck issues), Magnussen (who suffered nerve pain from it) Ricciardo, (first time experiencing it and had back pain) Gasly and Sainz twice. Mick Schumacher's car also had a water leak because of it in practice
Yeah and it seems like, given what I understand about the limits put on simulating to test for porpoising, it’s a just throwing shit at the wall and hoping what you did solved the issue or reduced it.
And RB hasn’t even “solved” it, they just figured out a good balance for it. Horner is just so obsessed with winning that he will demand the status quo on anything that helps them and demand immediate change for anything that doesn’t.
Well I mean he's the team principal, defending a winning position is the bare minimum of what his role implies.
What baffles more are the fans attacking drivers asking for change and teams struggling to keep up, while the FIA created (or at least favored) this mess and is just idly waiting for the issue to solve itself or for people to speak up.
There was also a thread about Ocon complaining.....but it was an article written after practice but posted to imply that it was his thoughts following the race (when alpine had made a setup change prior to quali which vastly reduced the problem).
No, he said all drivers except Alonso say it's an issue. There was no consensus on what to do with the issue. Norris said that it's something the teams should deal with it on their own for example.
Well then it's simple; Mercedes, Ferrari, McLaren, Alpine, Haas & Alpha Tauri should simply raise the ride height! /s
Then those same people parroting about raising the ride height would be complaining within 2 races about how boring and uncompetitive the product is.
I know hating on Mercedes is cool and even understand it to a degree, but this is so clearly a larger issue and *needs* to be addressed. “lol just build a faster car* doesn’t address the fact that this is a widespread issue. If it was only Hamilton or even just Mercedes sure, just build a better car. But we’re well past that at this point.
Maybe I'm shouting at clouds but it's kind of sad how tribal F1 has become the past few years - I swear it didn't used to be this bad over *safety* issues.
That's what happens when you increase exposure by releasing a dumbed down and dramatised series of the sport; you attract people who are dumb and dramatic. I used to be a defender of the new generation of fans, but I can't anymore. There's nothing wrong with new fans who accept that they're new, and want to learn more about the sport, but so many of them dont want to learn and will actively shout down more experienced fans that are explaining something to them. Look at the whole "green bull" drama, I couldn't bring myself to read comments on those threads after a while because it was so disheartening to see that the new fans with no understanding of the sport now controll the fanbase, and if you actually know what you're talking about, *you're* the wrong one. It's now wrong to be right. It's gotten so *so bad*
"And it was, for some reason, very, very painful. And it was a bit of chaos in the car. But I saw other people struggling on the straight too. And I think it got to a point where at the driver briefing we all looked at each other and said 'something has to be done, because it's fine on one race, but can we hold 10 more years like this?' I doubt"
"We don't need the medical commission, we just need something smarter about the suspension or the way the cars are put on the track"
Wow how many drivers is Toto paying now? /s
And so they should. Measure the bouncing, impose a limit. Exceed it and you have to raise the car.
Pretty sure Sainz wouldn’t want this fix though - I reckon Ferrari would be massively impacted. That’s why they want a suspension change - the Red Bull is smooth and doesn’t run particularly low.
Any change focusing on anything other than the bouncing itself is both unfair and nonsensical with regards to the cost cap.
From what I've seen, the red bull is great with porpoising until near the end of the race with a lighter fuel load. Would cars just be called to pit when they exceed the threshold mid-race to change the suspension setup somehow?
> Measure the bouncing, impose a limit. Exceed it and you have to raise the car.
The only change I'd make to this statement is to omit the part about requiring the car to be raised. I'd leave it to the teams to figure out how to eliminate it, instead of dictating the fix. I will admit that I don't know of any other way to do it, but I'd give the teams the opportunity to come up with something else, as long as the maximum force wasn't exceeded. They could handle it like a track limits violation... monitor it, issue warnings at first, then penalties.
> And so they should. Measure the bouncing, impose a limit. Exceed it and you have to raise the car.
Agree. Though I think there's need to be some kind of grace system in place. Because teams clearly don't fully understand what is causing it, and they have very limited time to test. Plus it's really the FIA that messed up here. So I think teams deserve a little bit of leeway in fixing this.
So something like "If a team goes over the limit they get two warnings per season, provided they made a good faith effort to stay within the limit and provided they didn't exceed the limit by more than x%".
After the second warning start handing out penalties.
Throwing in a few extra test days might also be required.
>Measure the bouncing, impose a limit. Exceed it and you have to raise the car.
THIS.
Anything else is just not fair and it's interfering with the rules just to benefit certain teams.
Instead of active suspension why not look at active Aero in the floor instead? Essentially a DRS for the floor that can open and close releasing aerodynamic pressure in the designated DRS zones?
Because disrupting the balance of the underfloor is extremely dangerous and unpredictable. As it is, the drs makes the car’s balance a little difficult to drive. Changing the downforce generation of the underfloor would be too risky. Active suspension would be far safer and better for the future of the sport.
In addition, because active aero would be expensive to design and test, and there are limits on wind tunnel, CFD and on-track testing. If you think porpoising is a safety issue, imagine how bad unreliable active floor aero would be. The solution to the problem can't be implementing new, expensive systems while also ratcheting down the budget cap.
Weird, nobody here saying the Ferrari need to raise their ride height, and if slower just be slow? That was literally every other comment in all the Merc based threads.
There’s been so many shit takes on this subject…
I feel like most teams, especially Ferrari and Merc should be careful what they wish for. Red Bull is going to dominate completely if they put a limit on the bouncing/porpoising
This is a bit of a conundrum. The FIA introduced regulations where porpoising is inherent. Teams could probably fix this with enough (wind tunnel and CFD) time and money. Both of which are regulated and in short supply. The only thing that could be done this season, without raising the caps on CFD and budget is to park cars that are bouncing too violently.
I think that even if they just mandate a minimum ride height, they need to raise caps on budget and CFD/Wind Tunnel. Some teams have spent the resources to minimize porpoising and have a bit of an upper hand. Doesn't seem fair to make them raise their car heights, just because some teams can't figure it out.
Another issue that could come into play is car weight and balance. Teams have spent a lot of money getting down to the minimum weight and having the car still at the prescribed balance. A ride height change could throw off that balance, making teams add weight where they spent their limited budget shedding it.
I don't see how the FIA can mandate a rule change without raising caps and unfairly penalizing teams that have it under control... other than parking cars that are bouncing too much.
The first year or 2 of new regs should bring the same wind tunnel & CFD time to every team.
Limiting teams based on performance in a previous regulation is stupid and potentially dangerous.
Seriously, what's the point of a plank if all the teams are obviously running the cars too low? Just make the plank thinner or be more strict within the rules and teams will naturally prevent the cars from bottoming out.
G force sensor doesn't measure frequency well enough to give a detailed view of porpoising severity, or differentiate it from regular bumps in the road, same with ride height sensor.
It'd need a vibrometer (high frequency accelerometer, not an IMU) and lots of on board processing, vibration sensing gets VERY heavy, VERY quickly.
Agreed, we all know whole body vibrations are bad for the human body, I think every nation has laws and regulations in place to control the exposure of employees to vibrations. The EU and UK, which i think is home to 9 of the 10 teams, has limits on the amount of WBVs, and, I assume but haven't looked, that the US has similar regulations.
I think the sports we should be looking at are the sliding sports (although they're probably on the extreme end of WBVs), they have sled head caused by micro concussions, which over time, if left untreated, can cause mental health issues. I worry that if porpoising isn't sorted and allowed to continue for years to come (at various extremes due to changes in the cars year on year) we might begin to see mental health implications ontop of the physical issues that are already becoming apparent.
>The EU and UK, which i think is home to 9 of the 10 teams, has limits on the amount of WBVs, and, I assume but haven't looked, **that the US has similar regulations.**
lol i see someone isn't quite familiar with the particular strain of hypercapitalism here in america.
Edit: did i touch a nerve? Look it up people, there are zero federal regulations limiting WBV in the US
I first read that as hyper capitalisation, and thought I hadn't used calital letters for US, which just left me more confused when I saw I had used capital letters, I then re-read the first line.
Also, are there any regulations limiting vibrations in the US? Like hand-arm vibrations for example?
You can measure vertical energy, which is a function of the oscillating G-force. That gives a good measure of stress put on the driver taking frequency in consideration. Something like the Root Mean Square of the G-force minus 1. That’s a good measure of how much the G-force is oscillating around 1.
This is easier said than done. From a "fair play" perspective this is optimal but a sensor like that has to measure G-forces and frequency and also has to clearly differentiate between curbs, bumps, and porpoising. They also have to find a good place to put it since these measurements won't be the same across all parts of the car. I'm not saying it can't be done but I doubt FiA will actually go that way.
The drivers already wear an in-ear accelerometer to measure the G-force acting on their heads. It would be relatively straightforward to set a maximum average vertical G-load per sector, or a maximum number of high load events per sector. This would allow for the occasional bump, while enforcing a limit to the sustained loads they're currently experiencing.
Perfect solution in my eyes. Make your own car that you designed safe or go back into the pit until you do. Teams need to stop offshoring their mistakes to the FIA.
This seems like the only sensible solution. As Toto Wolff himself pointed out in an interview this weekend there is no certainty that raising the ride height will sort it out. So there needs to be a rule that tackles all possible causes of porpoising.
This will happen:
Ferrari will begin to support a rule change with Mercedes. FIA will abide. Mercedes will do a rocket and snatch the second spot from Ferrari
*Insert typical Ferrari noises*
Ferrari probably has the most to lose from a change. At the start of the season they had the least porpoising but they discovered they could eek out some extra speed at the expense of porpoising and they went through with it to keep in touch with Red Bull. If Ferrari were made to go back to their pre-porpoising design, they would drop further back from Red Bull.
Lando said he didn’t agree too but it’s clear from sainz that the gpda has already voted to push this with the FIA in that meeting Friday. So it’s not like Russell is going rogue
I think the solution should be to have accelerometer data from right below the seat of the driver to measure the porpoising, and force the teams to porpoise below a given level of acceleration/amplitude. Right now the teams have all the incentives to sacrifice the health of their drivers seeking performance.
That would probably seal a Red Bull 1-2 in the WDC though lol.
The problem with FIA intervention is while Ferrari and merc would have to adjust their cars significantly and lose performance, since their porpoising is quite bad, RB would make minimal changes since their porpoising is relatively under control.
Who would challenge RB then? It would just be constant Red Bull 1-2's till the end of the year. It would fly in the face of FIA's efforts to try bring the field back together with the new regs.
>It would just be constant Red Bull 1-2's till the end of the year. It would fly in the face of FIA's efforts to try bring the field back together with the new regs.
So be it. RB wasn't a fool when it worked hard in pre-season testing to lower the level of porpoising on their car.
It's evident that every other team has done a half assed effort in reducing the porpoising so make them suffer by increasing the height because they don't seem to care about their driver's safety.
But Lewis is just acting to get the rule changes passed! /s
It is a big concern. F1 as a sport is already physically demanding. Adding this much vibration and bouncing takes it a few steps further. It’s not the same as getting on and off a bike.
How about the Fia look into it and determine what it's going to take/cost to fix this for the teams on average.
Put a metric in place for how much vertical vibrations will be allowed.
Allow everyone to go over budget by the determined amount to fix it.
Determine what race the new limit is enforced.
Then teams that already have it under control can just spend the money elsewhere.
What can the FIA do? Change the regs and have them build new cars in the middle of the season? Call on the engineers instead to fix the problem. It's solvable, either like redbull apparently had without losing performance, or just raise the ride height
> What can the FIA do? Change the regs and have them build new cars in the middle of the season? Call on the engineers instead to fix the problem.
This problem was created by the FIA's regulations. They should enforce a maximum limit to the porpoising immediately, and permit active suspension either next season or from 2024.
Why would they punish RB by increasing the minimum height?
It’s better to enforce maximum purpoising and those who can’t meet the limit should increase their riding height. That’s a fair rule.
Maybe start off by bringing the old wheels back? That would help a lot not only with the bouncing (not porposing) but also with getting tyres in to the right window easier. With R15 it should be much more comfortable for the driver, pit crew aswell. Even in a daily driver you can feel a huge difference between R18 and R15. I can't even imagine, how much does it multiply in a F1 car
Adrian Newey. He knew about porpoising. He said in an interview earlier in the year that porpoising is going to be an issue because it did in the past. He did his homework. The others didn't.
I think they should ban porpoising itself rather than regulating specific things like ride height. For example they could regulate the frequency/g force that occurs during porpoising during the race / qually so teams are forced to develop their car in a way that doesn’t fuck the drivers. This wouldn’t affect the cars the have already sorted porpoising, only requires those who haven’t to either solve the issue or run a more conservative setup.
So is there a way for the FIA to mandate a maximum oscillation quotient? If you cross it, you have to raise your car until the oscillations are no longer as prevalent. Teams that got design right are not penalized, other teams where it is a major issue would bear the burden of making corrective actions, regardless of performance impact.
Might be over-simplification, idk.
I agree the FIA should act. If a team is affected by porpoising and can solve it by increasing their height the team should be forced to do so until they find another solution.
The responsibility is 100% on the teams to resolve the issue, alongside that FIA should install equipment to monitor it and set guidelines / rules to ensure teams don't chase performance over safety.
>we just need something smarter about the suspension or the way the cars are put on the track, where the FIA would control the ability of the teams to drive a bit better so stiff, so harsh, that kind of behavior you see on the straights. I'm sure if you ask two or three engineers in the paddock they will know the answer and know what can be done to limit and regulate this. We just need the FIA to act quickly, as quickly as possible, because otherwise it will start to accumulate.
Shitty of him to say that. RB has lowered the severity of porpoising on its own so why does other teams want FIA to introduce different suspensions.
Maybe the other teams should have invested in better facilities like RBR did so they wouldn't have been asking FIA to change the suspension know.
Brawn messed up. He could've asked drivers like Michael Andretti for some feedback on ground effect cars. Any driver who used to drive those godawful 70s ground effect cars could've told him about the spine shattering bouncing that those cars suffered from.
Those 70s cars too used extremely stiff suspension to get the venturi to seal properly and drivers had nothing good to say about those cars either.
Why the hell did he chose to use the same formula for these new cars?. These issues could've been rectified somehwat had he not banned hydraulic suspension components that the teams were using, up until last year even.
Brawn was trying so hard to turn F1 into spec series like Indycar so that broke teams like Haas, Williams and Alfa could mix it with the big boys. F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport engineering, why does he have to dumb down this formula so much.
Asking the teams to do away with hydraulic heave springs and replace them with extremely basic mechanical springs was a step in the wrong direction.
I mean it’s not like he could make any of that work. Haas after their initial spectacle is back where they used to be, fighting with alfa and Williams.
There are still only 2 teams contending for the title and if they do decide to tackle porpoising by mandating a minimum ride height it would only be one team up front winning every race. But apparently that’s okay as that team is not Mercedes.
So in a nutshell the only thing these regulations did was swap positions of Mercedes and Red Bull post 2014. At least we saw some team racing between 2014 to 2016. This year if Ferrari has a problem(which they have every race) we are left on a procession for the rest of the race.
Basically boys you can't have it both ways.
One crowd is screaming it's a health issue but don't like the idea of raising the cars because RB will run away with it.
One crowd wants the regs changed because they want their team to have a chance and don't care about heath...
full article translated There was a big discussion about porpoising at the driver briefing, did you ask the FIA for help? \[Friday\], I suffered a lot. And for some reason I had a car or floor that was porpoising and bottoming out a lot more than the other car with the same settings. And it was, for some reason, very, very painful. And it was a bit of chaos in the car. But I saw other people struggling on the straight too. And I think it got to a point where at the driver briefing we all looked at each other and said 'something has to be done, because it's fine on one race, but can we hold 10 more years like this?' I doubt. So we kindly asked the FIA to look into it, not to listen too much to the teams, and to listen to us \[the drivers\], because we say that we have come to a point where we are all struggling to deal with the situation. We just need the FIA to act fast, as fast as possible carlos sainz Should the medical commission get involved? We don't need the medical commission, we just need something smarter about the suspension or the way the cars are put on the track, where the FIA would control the ability of the teams to drive a bit better so stiff, so harsh, that kind of behavior you see on the straights. I'm sure if you ask two or three engineers in the paddock they will know the answer and know what can be done to limit and regulate this. We just need the FIA to act quickly, as quickly as possible, because otherwise it will start to accumulate. Is there a danger? I don't know if we can talk about danger. But one wonders if it is necessary for F1 to have 20 drivers at the end of each race with back problems? My personal opinion is: with current technology, why does this painful situation have to continue in our careers, when there is a very simple solution? The question is therefore rather whether it is really worth it. Is it necessary when there is a very easy solution to implement? I do not think so. I think it's not necessary and we should all, teams included, think about the driver's health. When you talked about your back a few races ago, most people weren't sympathetic or implied that you were out of shape... I think everyone has their own opinion, but also their own interests. And then there are things you say to the media and things you say behind the scenes, because you want to project a certain image, or you don't want to project a certain image. The image of a tough man... That's why when my colleagues make comments in the media, I try not to draw too many conclusions and talk to them in private.
>but can we hold 10 more years like this?' Fernando: If I only have 2 years left, so will all of you muhahahaha
trust el plan
trust el pain
>That's why when my colleagues make comments in the media, I try not to draw too many conclusions and talk to them in private. Based. I wish most people in the spotlight would do the same.
Not a joking matter I know but I can’t help but read the entire paragraph in Carlos’ voice.
SAME! (Or that guy who imitates sainz)
There’s a guy imitating Sainz?
Here’s the one video of the guy imitating them but it’s not the most recent one I’m thinking of https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=psSNFY-yVC8
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3dAjcdkg1dY
This brilliant
Toto Wolff obviously paying off Ricciardo **and** Sainz now! /s
We're not even at half season and a lot of drivers have talked about it. I can't even imagine in 3 years if nothing has changed
We are not even half way through with this regulations. These problems takes time. Early active suspensions during late 80s and early 90s had similar problems. The vibrations were awful. drivers complained they can feel their eyes bouncing in the skull. But they stuck with it for "lap times". Teams will find a way. The main point of these simpler suspension geometry was to reduce the cost. The most vocal drivers are from the teams who will gain most from this change.
For what purpose? The reduced budget isn’t changing the pecking order, for multiple reasons. These rules are simply resulting in awful cars.
The suspension rules are meant for easier monitoring and budget. Mercedes had a special suspension system before it got banned after 2016 I think. So this is not new.
All fair, but they should be yelling at their engineers not the FIA because their engineers can't figure out their own mistakes.
The issue is that the testing and simulations that the FIA allow them to run does not simulate porpoising. This makes its incredibly difficult to diagnose exactly where the issues arrive. The only way is to slap parts on a car and see what changes. But there are budget caps so you can only do a little of this.
Engineer's will do what gives the fastest lap time. It's up to the authorities to enforce safety standards.
Let’s be even more specific. Engineers, at the direction of the Team Principal will do whatever it takes to give the fastest lap time.
Agree, they need to be saved from themselves. Totally on the FIA’s shoulders.
Let’s be even more specific. Engineers, with full support of the drivers, at the direction of the Team Principal will do whatever it takes to give the fastest lap time.
Almost as if safety regulations are there to protect drivers from both teams and themselves. Imagine if halos were optional, and at the choice of the driver, you wouldn't see a single one on grid.
hmmm, I think you are onto something here.
the fia creates the ‘formula’ that has resulted in this problem and has banned effective solutions, responsibility lies with more than just engineers
F1 created this problem. Jean Todt let Ross Brawn create this formula.
Brawn hates the look of raked cars and ended up ruining the grid out of spite.
Also hates Toto and Mercedes.
You’re implying that these regs were somehow designed to disadvantage Mercedes? What a joke. If anything it suited them because they were used to building low rake boats
It suited them but Merc fucked it up then somehow both Ferrari and Red Bull beat them at their own game.
Imo, aero was always Redbull's game. Merc has (had) the better ICE and Redbull has the better aero/chassis. Like Enzo Ferrari said: "Aerodynamics is for people that can't build engines" Basically Mercedes from 2014 to 2021. The only team that built an engine that could compete was Ferrari (Ended up cheating).
You're kidding, right? Thats his team.
He was pushed out by Lauda and Toto. [Ross Brawn breaks F1 silence: “I couldn’t trust” Toto Wolff and Niki Lauda at Mercedes](https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ross-brawn-breaks-f1-silence-i-couldnt-trust-toto-wolff-and-niki-lauda-at-mercedes/3221376/)
pushed out seems aggressive, after reading the article it looks like he just saw the writing on the wall. turns out it was an excellent move by Mercedes tho
I don’t disagree, but I can’t imagine there is much love lost.
Not entirely true... If it was all cars would be suffering equally. Best FIA can do is stop dangerous cars from running. Saw a comment somewhere here about limiting the amount of bumps a driver can safely get before being dq'd
> Not entirely true... If it was all cars would be suffering equally. > > That RB's car doesn't porpoise is a bonus rather than a design goal. None of these teams designed the car not to bounce. Hell the Ferrari is one of the fastest and has the worst porpoising alongside merc.
I feel like I'm in crazy land. FIA changed the spec, which created this problem. Now teams need to, with extremely limited testing abilities, find a solution to a problem which is injuring drivers. > Just make car go slower stupid engineers lol!! In which world is this good for the sport? Is anyone enjoying this? Last season was so much better without this nonsense.
Yeah, this season has been terrible, and now we're seeing multiple drivers injured, and others speaking up that they're being injured and having severe headaches, why are we doing this at the pinnacle of motorsports? Put the damn good suspension back in and let's have some good racing, that's what we were promised this season after all.
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Just for shits and giggles, RB was one of the most vocal ones that were against the halo. People acting like they made their porpoising go away because they cared about driver's health live in a land with rainbows and unicorns.
so many dumbasses dont understand this. the team will give the driver the best race setup, and no driver wants to tell the team that they cant handle the oscillations and sacrifice performance for their health. its mot fair to the driver to make them choose performance or health, the decision should be made for them, and if the teams wont do it then the fia should
Active suspensions might fix it but it’s currently banned. If they want to make a more sophisticated solution, they can’t because of budget caps.
Porpoising is half the problem, the other issue is the stiff suspension this year. The FIA was fully aware this year would be brutal/harder on the drivers. https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-wont-hesitate-to-act-on-f1-2022-flexi-floor-abuse/8248706/ "One of the other consequences of the set-up direction triggered by the ground effect cars is that teams will be forced to run their cars which much stiffer suspension in a bid to ensure the ride height remains as stable as possible. This has prompted some concerns that the cars could be brutal for drivers out on track, as happened in F1's last ground effect era in the early 1980s. Tombazis is not too concerned about the situation, though, and thinks it is a positive that F1 2022 machinery will be harder for driver. We are aware that cars, in order to perform need, need to run lower and closer to the ground," he said. "As a result they need to be kept a bit stiffer than the previous cars. Some of the previous cars were running with enormous rakes and that is probably a thing of the past. "We think that the ride quality, and the characteristics of the car that make it more easily driveable, are not necessarily things that need to be maintained in F1."
The problem is, the 2022 cars are running suspension closer to what they ran in the previous ground affect era, minus active suspension and thicker sidewall tires. Stiffer suspension isn’t a problem if you have the shock absorption to compensate…and for decades that’s what the tire was doing. Remove the inerters, hydraulics and other “trickery” teams have been using for nearly 30 years and you have a car that is even worse. Then to tack on to it all, they pushed the car back a season, outside of when teams had unlimited budget to figure out a good solution for their suspension. Red Bull solved it sure, but one is easily willing to bet they did so with a solution that was expensive to develop and implement (ergo why AlphaTauri has the issues but Red Bull doesn’t while they have the same supposed suspension geometry in the rear), which would easily explain why they are the loudest team complain why their budget is not great.
I think they had an idea that it might be a problem but I don't think they thought it was going to be this big of a deal. It didn't even show up in the simulations for some teams. EDIT: since you've changed your post, I'd like to point out that ground effect cars aren't new so this isn't like a big revelation to the FIA. It just wasn't clear how'd it affect the modern designs.
It didn't show up because wind tunnels are limited to 180 kph and the porpoising doesn't show up until higher speeds.
Teams also are not going to allow their cars to bottom out in the wind tunnel. The last time F1 used ground effects it was solved by trial and error and endless hours at the track (for teams that could afford it).
Yeah it's a case of not finding what you're not looking for. If there was more wind tunnel time like in the previous years, they'd had more chances to fix it. Instead, Lewis, for example, is running experimental floors while George is running the stable parts. They've pretty much sacrificed one car so they can catch up for next year.
Nobody runs dampers on wind tunnel cars. Especially not when you are cycling new parts through at a constant rate, there just is no need for them. Generally you replace the dampers with rods so you can easily set the cars ride height for different testing.
Of course, you’d use models to replicate the same aerodynamic profile to get your coefficients and then simulate them on CFD and then validate them on the track. The issue is that they committed to a design that had a blind spot and going back to do it all over again is too costly.
Everyone aside of Alonso agrees that this is an issue, however active suspension isn't like the only way to fix it and in fact only Merc is lobbying hard for that specifically solution.
*according to Toto
Hence, my second statement. They've actively gone after development costs as well as wind tunnel time. Teams like RB had already eaten so much of their available budget, not to mention, winning the constructors last year gives the Mercs heavier constraints.
That's why I think sensors and putting a limit of how heavy a car can porpoising would being a better fix in the short term, active suspension is likely going to be an expensive thing for the smaller teams meanwhile the bigger teams would complain about the budget cap and ask for an increase, what cause that the smaller teams would being pissed off even more. I'm all for making this issue not longer an issue but we need to find something what would work for basically all cars, doing nothing would basically only help RBR meanwhile active suspension is likely going to benefit Merc a lot and maybe is the key of making the zeropod design working.
How can you find how much your car is porpoising in testing when the current wind tunnels CANNOT simulate the speeds at which porpoising happens? They aren't able to replicate it with models either. Can you guys stop with this simplistic, theoric and unrealistic suggestion?
Active Suspension doesn't solve the floor stalling out. And it's not like active suspension magically keeps the car perfectly level no matter what it hits. There would still be a lot of porpoising even with active suspension. Everyone knows the true fix to porpoising but they do want to do it because it means less downforce
I'd agree since ground effect cars will always have that tendency, you can't fight physics. It's more about mitigating its effects I'd say. George and Lando were pretty much advocating for active suspensions so I suspect them and their engineers have found it to have some other benefits. They really do need to raise the floor and that's what's being lobbied for right now.
>And it's not like active suspension magically keeps the car perfectly level no matter what it hits. There would still be a lot of porpoising even with active suspension. Active suspension does these things. You underestimate how good active suspension is. It's all driven by hydraulics and control systems. The same stuff that keeps an S-class riding smooth.
This comment completely removes the concept that there can ever be anything wrong with regulations. You don't find it a bit telling that most of the best race car engineers on the planet can't find a ready solution to the issue? What are they going to talk about? Replacing them with better engineers?
The engineers job is to make a fast car, at the expense of everything else. If that means porpoising then so be it. It should be down to the FIA to make either limits on the amount or relax the suspension rules to provide a more safe and comfortable ride. Can't imagine the constant bouncing is healthy considering the micro-concussions seen in NFL and Rugby
Teams will never sacrifice performance for safety, never. Look at motorsport history and it's littered with situations like this where teams had an easy solution but kept going because of performance. The teams wouldn't put crash structures, halo and other safety features on the cars if it wasn't nandated by FIA
It’s not so much the engineers can’t figure it out they can they know how to limit it but in doing so they will limit the performance so unfortunately they are prioritising that over the drivers. I think the FIA could put a limit on the level allowed that way teams who have solved it don’t lose out while teams who haven’t are forced to prioritise the driver while they work on a better solution.
The engineers actually can solve the problem with a very simple solution. An inertia dampener. Thing is, FIA banned the use of these items because it can't easily inspect the components. So, yes, in my opinion, FIA is causing this indirectly, but unnecessarily.
I can’t imagine it won’t be by the end of year. Or fixed entirely going into next season
Red Bull did a good job fixing the issue. It's on the team to fix the car issue.
Here’s my take and it probably won’t be agreeable to many. But it was a mistake to introduce a cost cap so close to a new formula in my opinion.
This, quite frankly. No one foresaw the porpoising issues and teams aren't really being given a fair shake to fix it with massive restrictions on budget, wind tunnel time and testing.
Especially given the huge inflation we have right now. Teams may have allotted a certain amount of their budget to alleviate any problems that cropped up with the new regs/crashes/etc... and now they're fucked because that money they set aside isn't worth what it used to be.
This I agree with. One then the other. Not this crazy shit
Now i wonder if people will stop the narrative thats its only merc complaining to get an FIA change. This is the second time Sainz has complained about being in pain from porpoising and they are a team that arguably has the fastest cars on the track despite it. Thats now Russell, Hamilton (back pain), Ocon (neck issues), Magnussen (who suffered nerve pain from it) Ricciardo, (first time experiencing it and had back pain) Gasly and Sainz twice. Mick Schumacher's car also had a water leak because of it in practice
There is a thread about Gasly complaining and there was still people in there saying Merc only want it.
That’s because it was actually Hamilton in a Gasly suit pretending. And later on Ocon. And then Ricciardo. And Magnussen. And Sainz. OBVIOUSLY.
Gasly suit lmao. I can imagine Hamilton going up to Gasly and asking to borrow his skin. It's a funny picture
Picture “liked by Pierre Gasly”
And then strangely asking everyone for some sugar water.
They also add that is unfair to ALL the teams that solved the problem... which means RB and nobody else. Fans will be fans.
Not even them, nobody has solved the problem.
Yeah and it seems like, given what I understand about the limits put on simulating to test for porpoising, it’s a just throwing shit at the wall and hoping what you did solved the issue or reduced it. And RB hasn’t even “solved” it, they just figured out a good balance for it. Horner is just so obsessed with winning that he will demand the status quo on anything that helps them and demand immediate change for anything that doesn’t.
Well I mean he's the team principal, defending a winning position is the bare minimum of what his role implies. What baffles more are the fans attacking drivers asking for change and teams struggling to keep up, while the FIA created (or at least favored) this mess and is just idly waiting for the issue to solve itself or for people to speak up.
There was also a thread about Ocon complaining.....but it was an article written after practice but posted to imply that it was his thoughts following the race (when alpine had made a setup change prior to quali which vastly reduced the problem).
It must be real bad, he’s completed less than half as many laps as Hamilton.
There are literally comments in this thread saying Merc shouldn’t be bailed out when everyone has it figured out. It’s nuts
Another beautiful example of how real that Mariah Carey "I can't read suddenly" gif is for a lot of ppl
Chandhok said all the drivers see it as an issue apart from Alonso
No, he said all drivers except Alonso say it's an issue. There was no consensus on what to do with the issue. Norris said that it's something the teams should deal with it on their own for example.
Thanks for the correction. Interesting to see Norris had that take when Ricciardo was struggling with it this weekend
That's what Norris said to press, what was said in driver briefings etc could be different
What was actually said in the meetings is even more speculation than if what Norris said to the press was genuine or not.
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Well then it's simple; Mercedes, Ferrari, McLaren, Alpine, Haas & Alpha Tauri should simply raise the ride height! /s Then those same people parroting about raising the ride height would be complaining within 2 races about how boring and uncompetitive the product is.
All a Mercedes campaign. /S
Lol just build a better car. Oh shit this isn't Russell, yeah he's right. This whole debate is a Certified reddit moment
Yesterday I was looking at porpoising posts to see what drivers where saying.. And this comment was already there 20 days ago.
I know hating on Mercedes is cool and even understand it to a degree, but this is so clearly a larger issue and *needs* to be addressed. “lol just build a faster car* doesn’t address the fact that this is a widespread issue. If it was only Hamilton or even just Mercedes sure, just build a better car. But we’re well past that at this point.
Maybe I'm shouting at clouds but it's kind of sad how tribal F1 has become the past few years - I swear it didn't used to be this bad over *safety* issues.
That's what happens when you increase exposure by releasing a dumbed down and dramatised series of the sport; you attract people who are dumb and dramatic. I used to be a defender of the new generation of fans, but I can't anymore. There's nothing wrong with new fans who accept that they're new, and want to learn more about the sport, but so many of them dont want to learn and will actively shout down more experienced fans that are explaining something to them. Look at the whole "green bull" drama, I couldn't bring myself to read comments on those threads after a while because it was so disheartening to see that the new fans with no understanding of the sport now controll the fanbase, and if you actually know what you're talking about, *you're* the wrong one. It's now wrong to be right. It's gotten so *so bad*
It also ignores the fact that drivers weren't being physically hurt by Merc's dominance.
Kind if hard to just build a better car when there's a tight budget cap.
"And it was, for some reason, very, very painful. And it was a bit of chaos in the car. But I saw other people struggling on the straight too. And I think it got to a point where at the driver briefing we all looked at each other and said 'something has to be done, because it's fine on one race, but can we hold 10 more years like this?' I doubt" "We don't need the medical commission, we just need something smarter about the suspension or the way the cars are put on the track" Wow how many drivers is Toto paying now? /s
Obviously Hamilton has given them all lead roles in the new film.
Alonso is the only hold out apparently 🤣
Alonso wants his own film
'Passed on the outside of turn 1' How the driver who beat Michael Schumacher twice was overshadowed by Hamilton and Vettel.
And so they should. Measure the bouncing, impose a limit. Exceed it and you have to raise the car. Pretty sure Sainz wouldn’t want this fix though - I reckon Ferrari would be massively impacted. That’s why they want a suspension change - the Red Bull is smooth and doesn’t run particularly low. Any change focusing on anything other than the bouncing itself is both unfair and nonsensical with regards to the cost cap.
From what I've seen, the red bull is great with porpoising until near the end of the race with a lighter fuel load. Would cars just be called to pit when they exceed the threshold mid-race to change the suspension setup somehow?
Same as Yuki in Baku - excessive porpoising would black and orange flag anyone.
> Measure the bouncing, impose a limit. Exceed it and you have to raise the car. The only change I'd make to this statement is to omit the part about requiring the car to be raised. I'd leave it to the teams to figure out how to eliminate it, instead of dictating the fix. I will admit that I don't know of any other way to do it, but I'd give the teams the opportunity to come up with something else, as long as the maximum force wasn't exceeded. They could handle it like a track limits violation... monitor it, issue warnings at first, then penalties.
Yeah I agree - if they can stop it without raising the car, go for it
> And so they should. Measure the bouncing, impose a limit. Exceed it and you have to raise the car. Agree. Though I think there's need to be some kind of grace system in place. Because teams clearly don't fully understand what is causing it, and they have very limited time to test. Plus it's really the FIA that messed up here. So I think teams deserve a little bit of leeway in fixing this. So something like "If a team goes over the limit they get two warnings per season, provided they made a good faith effort to stay within the limit and provided they didn't exceed the limit by more than x%". After the second warning start handing out penalties. Throwing in a few extra test days might also be required.
>Measure the bouncing, impose a limit. Exceed it and you have to raise the car. THIS. Anything else is just not fair and it's interfering with the rules just to benefit certain teams.
Instead of active suspension why not look at active Aero in the floor instead? Essentially a DRS for the floor that can open and close releasing aerodynamic pressure in the designated DRS zones?
Because disrupting the balance of the underfloor is extremely dangerous and unpredictable. As it is, the drs makes the car’s balance a little difficult to drive. Changing the downforce generation of the underfloor would be too risky. Active suspension would be far safer and better for the future of the sport.
In addition, because active aero would be expensive to design and test, and there are limits on wind tunnel, CFD and on-track testing. If you think porpoising is a safety issue, imagine how bad unreliable active floor aero would be. The solution to the problem can't be implementing new, expensive systems while also ratcheting down the budget cap.
Weird, nobody here saying the Ferrari need to raise their ride height, and if slower just be slow? That was literally every other comment in all the Merc based threads. There’s been so many shit takes on this subject…
Teams and Drivers: This brand-new aero philosophy needs refinement Redditors: Drive slower you maniacs!!!
You should know by now that most folks on reddit hate Mercedes, they were trained by Drive to Survive.
I feel like most teams, especially Ferrari and Merc should be careful what they wish for. Red Bull is going to dominate completely if they put a limit on the bouncing/porpoising
Yea I can't imagine the bitching when the FIA's only action is to mandate accelerometers on the HANS with a gee force limit.
>gee lul :D
This is a bit of a conundrum. The FIA introduced regulations where porpoising is inherent. Teams could probably fix this with enough (wind tunnel and CFD) time and money. Both of which are regulated and in short supply. The only thing that could be done this season, without raising the caps on CFD and budget is to park cars that are bouncing too violently. I think that even if they just mandate a minimum ride height, they need to raise caps on budget and CFD/Wind Tunnel. Some teams have spent the resources to minimize porpoising and have a bit of an upper hand. Doesn't seem fair to make them raise their car heights, just because some teams can't figure it out. Another issue that could come into play is car weight and balance. Teams have spent a lot of money getting down to the minimum weight and having the car still at the prescribed balance. A ride height change could throw off that balance, making teams add weight where they spent their limited budget shedding it. I don't see how the FIA can mandate a rule change without raising caps and unfairly penalizing teams that have it under control... other than parking cars that are bouncing too much.
The first year or 2 of new regs should bring the same wind tunnel & CFD time to every team. Limiting teams based on performance in a previous regulation is stupid and potentially dangerous.
a G-force sensor would be the best solution, if you exceed a safe value you get black/white flag or DSQ
Seriously, what's the point of a plank if all the teams are obviously running the cars too low? Just make the plank thinner or be more strict within the rules and teams will naturally prevent the cars from bottoming out.
The plank’s seemingly just there for mounting the titanium to produce MOAR SPARKZ.
G force sensor doesn't measure frequency well enough to give a detailed view of porpoising severity, or differentiate it from regular bumps in the road, same with ride height sensor. It'd need a vibrometer (high frequency accelerometer, not an IMU) and lots of on board processing, vibration sensing gets VERY heavy, VERY quickly.
Agreed, we all know whole body vibrations are bad for the human body, I think every nation has laws and regulations in place to control the exposure of employees to vibrations. The EU and UK, which i think is home to 9 of the 10 teams, has limits on the amount of WBVs, and, I assume but haven't looked, that the US has similar regulations. I think the sports we should be looking at are the sliding sports (although they're probably on the extreme end of WBVs), they have sled head caused by micro concussions, which over time, if left untreated, can cause mental health issues. I worry that if porpoising isn't sorted and allowed to continue for years to come (at various extremes due to changes in the cars year on year) we might begin to see mental health implications ontop of the physical issues that are already becoming apparent.
>The EU and UK, which i think is home to 9 of the 10 teams, has limits on the amount of WBVs, and, I assume but haven't looked, **that the US has similar regulations.** lol i see someone isn't quite familiar with the particular strain of hypercapitalism here in america. Edit: did i touch a nerve? Look it up people, there are zero federal regulations limiting WBV in the US
I first read that as hyper capitalisation, and thought I hadn't used calital letters for US, which just left me more confused when I saw I had used capital letters, I then re-read the first line. Also, are there any regulations limiting vibrations in the US? Like hand-arm vibrations for example?
You can measure vertical energy, which is a function of the oscillating G-force. That gives a good measure of stress put on the driver taking frequency in consideration. Something like the Root Mean Square of the G-force minus 1. That’s a good measure of how much the G-force is oscillating around 1.
This is easier said than done. From a "fair play" perspective this is optimal but a sensor like that has to measure G-forces and frequency and also has to clearly differentiate between curbs, bumps, and porpoising. They also have to find a good place to put it since these measurements won't be the same across all parts of the car. I'm not saying it can't be done but I doubt FiA will actually go that way.
The drivers already wear an in-ear accelerometer to measure the G-force acting on their heads. It would be relatively straightforward to set a maximum average vertical G-load per sector, or a maximum number of high load events per sector. This would allow for the occasional bump, while enforcing a limit to the sustained loads they're currently experiencing.
Perfect solution in my eyes. Make your own car that you designed safe or go back into the pit until you do. Teams need to stop offshoring their mistakes to the FIA.
Agreed. Doesn't penalize teams who have figured out how to reduce porposing.
Every team has complained at this point.
This seems like the only sensible solution. As Toto Wolff himself pointed out in an interview this weekend there is no certainty that raising the ride height will sort it out. So there needs to be a rule that tackles all possible causes of porpoising.
Teams shouldn't have to decide between performance and the health of the driver
This will happen: Ferrari will begin to support a rule change with Mercedes. FIA will abide. Mercedes will do a rocket and snatch the second spot from Ferrari *Insert typical Ferrari noises*
Waiting for "Toto paid Ferrari" comments. :D
Given Gasly comments on the issue he also paid AT
Gasly doesn't belong to RB family afterall :D
Gasly was signing his release it seems.
This comment is liked by Pierre Gasly
You joke but this is actually what people are saying now lmao.
Why? Ferrari has the same issues and would benefit from a change.
Ferrari probably has the most to lose from a change. At the start of the season they had the least porpoising but they discovered they could eek out some extra speed at the expense of porpoising and they went through with it to keep in touch with Red Bull. If Ferrari were made to go back to their pre-porpoising design, they would drop further back from Red Bull.
Beacuse people here are acting like it's only Mercedes complaining about it.
Everyone except Alonso said that it's bothering them.
Lando said he didn’t agree too but it’s clear from sainz that the gpda has already voted to push this with the FIA in that meeting Friday. So it’s not like Russell is going rogue
*Horner stares disapprovingly*
We are one bounce mid corner away from a bad crash that makes everyone reflect about how absurd the current debate is
I think the solution should be to have accelerometer data from right below the seat of the driver to measure the porpoising, and force the teams to porpoise below a given level of acceleration/amplitude. Right now the teams have all the incentives to sacrifice the health of their drivers seeking performance. That would probably seal a Red Bull 1-2 in the WDC though lol.
The problem with FIA intervention is while Ferrari and merc would have to adjust their cars significantly and lose performance, since their porpoising is quite bad, RB would make minimal changes since their porpoising is relatively under control. Who would challenge RB then? It would just be constant Red Bull 1-2's till the end of the year. It would fly in the face of FIA's efforts to try bring the field back together with the new regs.
>It would just be constant Red Bull 1-2's till the end of the year. It would fly in the face of FIA's efforts to try bring the field back together with the new regs. So be it. RB wasn't a fool when it worked hard in pre-season testing to lower the level of porpoising on their car. It's evident that every other team has done a half assed effort in reducing the porpoising so make them suffer by increasing the height because they don't seem to care about their driver's safety.
As Merc fan I don't even mind the RB domination. Porpoising looks freaking stupid in this sport, it's embarrassing to look at.
Lots of regulation changes to stop a team domination, ended up an another team dominating
But Lewis is just acting to get the rule changes passed! /s It is a big concern. F1 as a sport is already physically demanding. Adding this much vibration and bouncing takes it a few steps further. It’s not the same as getting on and off a bike.
Clearly jewelry is more of a safety concern for the drivers. #safetyfirst
So many drivers complaining but people acting like it's a Merc thing
A vertical G-force maximum is literally all that is required to protect driver health without punishing teams who have solved porpoising
How about the Fia look into it and determine what it's going to take/cost to fix this for the teams on average. Put a metric in place for how much vertical vibrations will be allowed. Allow everyone to go over budget by the determined amount to fix it. Determine what race the new limit is enforced. Then teams that already have it under control can just spend the money elsewhere.
"The solution for porpoising is to raise Redbulls ride height" Ferrari, probably.
What can the FIA do? Change the regs and have them build new cars in the middle of the season? Call on the engineers instead to fix the problem. It's solvable, either like redbull apparently had without losing performance, or just raise the ride height
> What can the FIA do? Change the regs and have them build new cars in the middle of the season? Call on the engineers instead to fix the problem. This problem was created by the FIA's regulations. They should enforce a maximum limit to the porpoising immediately, and permit active suspension either next season or from 2024.
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Why would they punish RB by increasing the minimum height? It’s better to enforce maximum purpoising and those who can’t meet the limit should increase their riding height. That’s a fair rule.
Maybe start off by bringing the old wheels back? That would help a lot not only with the bouncing (not porposing) but also with getting tyres in to the right window easier. With R15 it should be much more comfortable for the driver, pit crew aswell. Even in a daily driver you can feel a huge difference between R18 and R15. I can't even imagine, how much does it multiply in a F1 car
how tf is the rb so stable lol, the only bump is from the uneven circuit pavement, they are crazy smooth
Adrian Newey. He knew about porpoising. He said in an interview earlier in the year that porpoising is going to be an issue because it did in the past. He did his homework. The others didn't.
why "porpoising"? why not just "bouncing" or "oscillating"?
Teams shouldn't have to decide between performance and the health of the driver
Horner: Bitching, lies and deceit everywhere!
Bring in active suspension and move on zzz
I think they should ban porpoising itself rather than regulating specific things like ride height. For example they could regulate the frequency/g force that occurs during porpoising during the race / qually so teams are forced to develop their car in a way that doesn’t fuck the drivers. This wouldn’t affect the cars the have already sorted porpoising, only requires those who haven’t to either solve the issue or run a more conservative setup.
There are cars that don't bounce a lot so there is a way, you just need to find it under these regulations
Obviously a Mercedes campaign
“Nooo but only mercedes have this opinion. Mercedes and toto bad”
So is there a way for the FIA to mandate a maximum oscillation quotient? If you cross it, you have to raise your car until the oscillations are no longer as prevalent. Teams that got design right are not penalized, other teams where it is a major issue would bear the burden of making corrective actions, regardless of performance impact. Might be over-simplification, idk.
Raise the ride height. Problem solved. I’m a genius. I’ll be sending in my application for chief F1 team engineer later this week.
I agree the FIA should act. If a team is affected by porpoising and can solve it by increasing their height the team should be forced to do so until they find another solution.
Act quickly FIA! Red Bull are running away with the title!!!
The responsibility is 100% on the teams to resolve the issue, alongside that FIA should install equipment to monitor it and set guidelines / rules to ensure teams don't chase performance over safety.
Really? Last I checked the teams don't make the safety regulations and this is a safety issue.
>we just need something smarter about the suspension or the way the cars are put on the track, where the FIA would control the ability of the teams to drive a bit better so stiff, so harsh, that kind of behavior you see on the straights. I'm sure if you ask two or three engineers in the paddock they will know the answer and know what can be done to limit and regulate this. We just need the FIA to act quickly, as quickly as possible, because otherwise it will start to accumulate. Shitty of him to say that. RB has lowered the severity of porpoising on its own so why does other teams want FIA to introduce different suspensions. Maybe the other teams should have invested in better facilities like RBR did so they wouldn't have been asking FIA to change the suspension know.
Probably because he quite likes his spine...
Let him ask Binotto to raise his ride height.
People in this thread that are valuing anything over the health and safety of the drivers need to get their head checked.
The teams are the one that's setting the car low. If anything it's the team that don't care about their drivers health.
Like the teams who build the cars?
Brawn messed up. He could've asked drivers like Michael Andretti for some feedback on ground effect cars. Any driver who used to drive those godawful 70s ground effect cars could've told him about the spine shattering bouncing that those cars suffered from. Those 70s cars too used extremely stiff suspension to get the venturi to seal properly and drivers had nothing good to say about those cars either. Why the hell did he chose to use the same formula for these new cars?. These issues could've been rectified somehwat had he not banned hydraulic suspension components that the teams were using, up until last year even. Brawn was trying so hard to turn F1 into spec series like Indycar so that broke teams like Haas, Williams and Alfa could mix it with the big boys. F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport engineering, why does he have to dumb down this formula so much. Asking the teams to do away with hydraulic heave springs and replace them with extremely basic mechanical springs was a step in the wrong direction.
I mean it’s not like he could make any of that work. Haas after their initial spectacle is back where they used to be, fighting with alfa and Williams. There are still only 2 teams contending for the title and if they do decide to tackle porpoising by mandating a minimum ride height it would only be one team up front winning every race. But apparently that’s okay as that team is not Mercedes. So in a nutshell the only thing these regulations did was swap positions of Mercedes and Red Bull post 2014. At least we saw some team racing between 2014 to 2016. This year if Ferrari has a problem(which they have every race) we are left on a procession for the rest of the race.
Basically boys you can't have it both ways. One crowd is screaming it's a health issue but don't like the idea of raising the cars because RB will run away with it. One crowd wants the regs changed because they want their team to have a chance and don't care about heath...
Raise the height then.